RaptorsHQ Friday Poll - Which Raptor Has Been the Biggest Disappointment?
by Adam Francis on Feb 24, 2012 9:30 AM EST
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PrintTonight marks the kick-off off the 2012 NBA All-Star Weekend.
Well, I think technically things began last night but for many, things really get underway with tonight's Rookie-Sophomore match-up, featuring some of the league's rising talent.
It's an up-and-down affair, that usually features little in the way of defensive intensity, but an entertaining match nonetheless, usually highlighted by some ridiculous offensive performances.
The Toronto Raptors, as we've previously discussed, missed the boat on this match, failing to send a player to the game, despite possessing some young talent of their own.
The fact of the matter is, while it would have been nice to see Ed Davis participating in the game, he, along with many other youngsters in the Raptors fold, have failed to live up to expectations this season, prompting this morning's poll question:
"Which member of the Toronto Raptors do you think has been the biggest disappointment so far this season?"
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You figure Ed Davis would be a shoo-in for biggest disappointment. But Ed has two things working against him:
1. His disappointing season can be chalked up to a sophomore slump.
2. He is a teammate of DeMar DeRozan.
DeRozan has been an epic disappointment. He should be breaking out in his third season. Meanwhile, he’s regressed in almost every way possible… despite the fact that we constantly hear what a hard worker he is, etc.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Feb 24, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions
I was going to vote for Demar, but he has been much, much better in February than in January – seems like he might have recovered from whatever the heck was going on with his game. His FG% is up (.459 from .367), his 3P% is up (.333 from .275), his points per game (18.5 from 14.1) with only slightly more shots (14.3 from 13.5), his assist per game (2.3 from 1.3).
Positive signs all. But Amir and Ed have been pretty invisible all year long, and considering I was hoping for improvement from Ed, that’s been my biggest disappointment, as of right now. But yes, it is probably a “sophomore slump” and hopefully he will get through it.
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I am going with the DS on this one. I didn’t expect much of Davis because I was never a fan of drafting him so my expectations were never great to begin with. I wasn’t a fan of Derozan either but I fully expected him to make a much bigger positive contribution to this team than he has. Last night I watched the first half of the OKC/LA game and saw the impact Harden has on the court and ask why can’t Derozan bring any of that? Improving over the last few weeks is nice and all but I want that consistently and he disappears for long stretches of the game way too often for my liking. I just do not think he has the skills to play as anything more than a weak SF. If he improves his handle to the point where he could actually run the offense successfully I might change my mind but until then he will be a disappointment.
Get out of my brain McGateway
Was watching that same game last night and during a Harden drive to the hoop and foul on a break, had the same thought…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Feb 24, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I guess the question above has more to do with what people expected than anything the players have done on the court.
Sure, I’d like DD to be better, but he still has managed to average about 18 points per game recently on a decent percentage, and showing that recovery from the early season slump is a good sign.
I still place DD a close 2nd to Ed, though. A disappointing season to be sure.
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I'm going with dhackett on this one
If I had to vote it wouldn’t have been to demar for the reasons he mentioned above..guys on here seem to forget this team is learning a new system, new coaching, with what 2 weeks of training camp and pre-season games bunched in there. Of course there’s gonna be struggles from this team especially demar..and to mention harden and why demar can’t bring that kind of impact isn’t really fair for one..harden was a high draft pick and was more nba ready than demar everybody knows that so for him to be performing the way he is isn’t a surprize but also factor in he has MUCH better teammates and a better team than demar and has been playing in the samwe system for a number of seasons now compare to demar. Like dhack said at least demars numbers are improving as the season goes on so maybe he’s finally turning the corner, so I believe demar will get better as the season goes on just like last year.
by sherwing32 on Feb 24, 2012 12:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ed and Amir Invisible? Say What
What team have you been watching?
The are averaging a combined 13 points, 13 rebounds and 1.9 blocks in 47 MPG. While disappointing numbers I don’t think that that makes them “invisible” especially when you consider that Casey’s offense basically excludes both of them. I know that DeMar and Jose have made numerous FG’s using their screens. So if anything they have done a good job making DeMar and Jose “invisible” to the players defending them. LOL
Overall defensively they have played pretty good.
So combined the TWO of them are averaging one Demarcus Cousins...
lol… just bugging…
I think it’s a fair statement relative to their “progress” has been invisible… Ed doesn’t really look ANY different than last year and Amir was again hampered by injuries…
Each have shown flashes, which is encouraging and discouraging at the same time…
Tease us enough to want to not let them slip away, but not bring it consistently enough to not try and trade up…
"the Truth"
Have to agree on the “invisible progress” line…I’m watching the EXACT same Ed as last year, and hard to argue that Amir hasn’t regressed in terms of consistency.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Feb 24, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Adam
You wrote.
Ed as last year, and hard to argue that Amir hasn’t regressed in terms of consistency.
You also wrote
Have to agree on the "invisible progress" line
So you are saying that they have stagnated or regressed and their progress has not been noticeable. That makes sense. It is hard to see progress when you see regression or stagnation unless you are a politician. LOL
Buddha, stop trying to argue the semantics of our statements when you know full well the message being conveyed...
You’re arguing just for the sake of arguing again…
"the Truth"
Warrior Amir from last season seemed to fight harder through injury to compete...
This year, I truly believe Amir is cognisant of the Tank Nation mentality and is also somewhat secure in his role in the future of this team so he isn’t killing himself needlessly…
He is simply playing smarter with his own career and body in mind in a season where winning a couple extra games isn’t going to be necessarily helpful to the big picture…
"the Truth"
Could Be
Certainly food for thought.
His thumb injury has had definitely held him back. His TOV% was over 20% all season until after Wed game. It is now down to 19.9%. Last season with a higher Usage% is was only about 11%
It Is Harder To Catch A Pass In Traffic
if you are worried about the pain that would result from someone banging a sore thumb every time to try and catch a pass in paint.
Agreed, as such I am not worried about Amir's future...
I think we know exactly what he provides when healthy…
He isn’t likely to make some big advancement in his game…
His “poor” showing at times this season isn’t the norm, it’s an exception to the Rule of the Warrior…
"the Truth"
"Invisble"
“1565” wrote
But Amir and Ed have been pretty invisible all year long,.
My comment had to do with “1565” saying they have been invisible, nothing other than that. He never said “their "progress" has been invisible”.
Think about what you wrote. You said “their progress has been invisible.” If that statement is true it means that they have progressed but no one has noticed it. So maybe you are saying even though you don’t realize it is that it is disappointing to you that no one has noticed their progress this season.
I wasn't arguing you with Buddha... or trying to put words in his mouth either...
I was refining his comment into my perspective of the two…
While they may or may not be making some statistical progress, my observations haven’t picked up on it therefore it is invisible to me…
Happy?
"the Truth"
I Wish This Whole Discussion Was Invisible To Both of Us - LOL
Now that would be progress. LOL
WOW. 2 blocks per 48 from the team’s two most athletic big men combined? Awesome. The simple fact is, they have had a significant impact on the game’s result far too rarely. Even last year, I thought Ed and Amir especially managed to have a few games where their impact was undeniable. This year? They’ve sort of faded into the background.
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
James Johnson is hurt that you don't think he's big...
Or maybe that you don’t think he’s a man… that’s worse…
;)
"the Truth"
On a slightly more serious note, I wouldn't necessarily call Ed highly athletic, just that he has length...
"the Truth"
Compared to Bargnani, Alabi and Gray, I stand by my statement. ;)
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely agree... I only joke about James as he has been used at the 4 spot lately and is entitled to some "big man" status...
And he’s more athletic than Ed…
"the Truth"
When they play small ball, he's a big... So I guess he's a "Small-Big" = Smig?
Whereas Tayshaun Prince is a big-small = Bimall?
oh dear…
"the Truth"
If used to his strengths I think he (Ed) is an above average player...
It is impossible to implement a system that caters to every players strengths however…
As Mistafitz said, DeMar is thriving more in the less half-court offence with Andrea out…
Andrea would slump if he returned and we maintained a purely up tempo style…
Ed is rather good in the deep post, but they don’t run plays for that hardly ever…
Ed is an afterthought cleanup man in the offence and it shows in his numbers…
IF his specific development was the focal point of Casey’s plan, yes he would flourish and I am positive he would get recognition as a rising star…
Does he deserve it? Maybe not…
Will he get that? Not likely…
All he can do is try and have a few breakout performances that gain him some extra leash and hope for the best…
"the Truth"
I seriously doubt Andrea would slump if we kept the current style. Our current style still results in about 3/4 of possessions ending up in a half court set (aka give it to Bargs). Casey has wanted to run the ball all year long, it’s just taken this long for the team to start doing it.
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't say if we kept the current style...
I said if we maintained a purely up-tempo offence…
You said yourself the current style is still 3/4 half-court offence, I agree…
"the Truth"
So, you are talking about a 7 seconds or less offense? A more traditional run and gun offense still has to execute half court when the defense gets back, and that is where Bargnani would be used. Whether we run more or the same as what we are doing now is irrelevant – if you want to be able to score over the course of an entire game, you cannot rely on fastbreak points alone.
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
when you play faster
on offense, its tends to lead to the opposition doing so aswell. More possessions = more missed shots/turnovers = more fast break opportunities for the opposition
This happens all the time with fast paced teams, their opposition ends up playing at a faster pace aswell. Which means transition and help defense becomes more and more important.
(Side note: This was the effectiveness of 7 secs or less. Not the high paced ‘scoring’, but rather it was throwing the opposition off their game and eventually wearing them out… only the controlled/experienced teams were able to counter it (ex. SA))
Bargnani is not a floor runner. Demar is. Amir looses one of his greatest strengths by not running.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Feb 24, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
And that's all I am saying is that no one system will be every player's best fit...
If this team was focused solely on half-court DeMar and Ed and Amir would struggle…
If we were a 7 seconds or less squad Bargnani and Kleiza and Gray and Jose would struggle…
Barbosa, Bayless, James Johnson: Can be about as productive either way…
No one system will make everyone look good…
No one man should have all that pasta…
"the Truth"
If this team was focused solely on half-court DeMar and Ed and Amir would struggle…
Amir is getting better on offense in the half court game with the PIck and Pop now being run for him in addition to the Pick and Roll.
But....
The key to a successful team is having a coach build a system and executing that system.
Then you bring in talent to fit that system. In the NBA talent does win, but you have to have the right talent.
In the last 24 years only 8 coaches have won an NBA championship: Jackson, Riley, Rudy Tomjanovic, Chuck Daly, Gregg Popovich, Larry Brown, Doc Rivers and Rick Carlisle.
While in the last 26 years 16 different players have won the Finals MVP, and 16 league MVPs.
So while talent is important and you will never win without it, you have to have a good coach; trust his system and build around that system. If players cannot play Casey’s system then ship’em out. You build from the top down and don’t let the players run the team. Unless you want to be stuck in mediocrity
Demar's improved numbers
Alot of it has to do with the fact that we are playing less half-court offense since Andrea has been out.
In the half-court, the two things Demar does badly (dribble and absorb contact) are exposed. When he gets to just run up and down the wing, catch and finish, he looks pretty good.
While Ed and Amir have been mildly disappointing, Demar’s regression in his ball-handling has him being the most disappointing for me, by far.
I don’t think Demar has regressed, that’s the thing. It’s simply that the style of play, as you mentioned, revealed weaknesses in his game we didn’t see before. Lately he has looked better because he is being used better.
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
I agree... to a degree...
Last years team wasn’t exactly the epitome of half-court driven basketball and this year’s was a big change…
As such, certain deficiencies in DeMar’s game weren’t spotlighted last year as much as they were early this year even though they already existed…
There are some area’s where I see progress and some where I see regression, but most of the exposed flaws people are highlighting now were already there, they just didn’t show up as often…
"the Truth"
Is There Really A Sophomore Slump In The NBA?
I don’t recall too many NBA players of worth having a sophomore slump. In fact most NBA players who turn out to be worth anything almost always have better seasons in their second season in the NBA.
I think the idea of a sophomore slump is really a valid baseball concept, not a NBA one.
Think sophomore slump is more of a hockey term but there are NBA examples. I’d put Landry Fields in that category this year.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Feb 24, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
So Hockey and Baseball.
Actually I think the term in baseball is “Sophomore Jinx”. Thanks for pointing that out about hockey. I gave up watching hockey when I moved to So CA. I have never been able to get into watching hockey when it is 75+ degrees and sunny. I have tried but it has never worked.
I used to love Saturday night hockey from Toronto with Foster Hewitt calling the play by play from the rafters. As I recall it was on channel 6. The picture always came in snowy, before cable, and the snow looked like it was on the ice.
Results Are As Expected
Those who Raptors fans think have the highest upside have been been the biggest disappointment.
Glad to see Andea’s name missing from the list. Though to tell the truth I would have included him. Not because of his play, but because of his lack of play. Then again maybe before the season Raptors fans would have thought that his lack of play would have been a plus for the Raptors. Forget it. His lack of play is leading the way to more ping-pong balls. So Andrea has been anything but a disappointment this season. LOL
I just want to know who the heck voted for "the Ninja" ?
How has he in ANY conceivable way been a disappointment?
"the Truth"
I Didn't Vote For Him
but he has in fact been a disappointment. I thought his shooting would be a lot better.
His shooting didn't regress from some high level last year...
And he has improved every single other aspect of his game this year…
If that’s a disappointment I would hate to be receiving evaluations from you…
"the Truth"
His Shooting Has Been A Disappointment To Me
Maybe your expectations for him were a lot lower than mine were, eh.
Last season he shot .464. This season it has regressed to .431.
While his 3FG% has improved significantly it is still only .321.
I expected a lot more from him this season shooting wise.
p.s. Rasual Butler should get voted for biggest waste of an NBA body...
A shooter who can’t shoot…
A 6’8" long athletic wing who isn’t a great defender…
Can’t inbound the ball to save his life, or a game for a more relevant matter…
"the Truth"
He was too obvious ;)
Same with Solomon Alabi, who isn’t even a disappointment, he’s just MIA.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Feb 24, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Ah Yes Alabi
I was hoping for a blowout of the Pistons so he would get some burn.
Butler
has been no disappointment to me.
When the Raptors signed him I tweeted and posted here that he sucks. He has in fact lived down to all my expectations of him. So much so, that one could say that I consider him to be more than fulfilling my expectations of him. LOL
Never Said You Did
I was commenting on Butler after you mentioned him and just said he was disappointing to me etc.
And I was clarifying that I wasn't considering him a disappointment either...
So we agree, thanks… Butler sucks, I’ll make the T-Shirts…
Answer: The Butler Did It
Question: Who shot that airball?
"the Truth"
Be Careful
Caron Butler is pretty good so make sure you put “R. Butler” on the T-Shirt.
Yeah that’s pretty bad eh – thinking he’d be bad, and he ends up being even WORSE than that!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Feb 24, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Thats Bad in Bad Way 4Sure
R. Butler could change the whole meaning of “bad dude” LOL
Unfortunately For America and The World
His mind is so brilliant that it races ahead of his ability to express his brilliant ideas thereby sometimes causing these type of sound bites.
Rand on the other hand is even more brilliant and better yet is able to slow down his brilliant thoughts so they don’t race ahead of his mouth.
My biggest problem with people choosing Ed as the biggest disappointment...
Is that I think most of those voters aren’t really disappointed with his actual play as much as his usage…
Yes I have wanted him to have more flashes than he has had…
But that isn’t a change from last year…
Yes I want him to be a force on defence more than he is…
But a lot of people don’t consider that in the coach’s minds Ed is an afterthought and that hurts his showing…
Can he work harder and show better in the opportunities he has? Sure… But to expect him to be on par with a Demarcus Cousins when he doesn’t have a tenth of the freedom Cousins has is preposterous…
"the Truth"
Nope – disappointed with his play when he is on the court. His TS% is down (.523 vs .583), his ORB% is down (9.5% vs 12.1%), his TO are up (13.7% versus 10.1%). His usage rate is the same as last year (13.7 vs 13.3%) and he has played about the same number of minutes per game (22.8 vs 24.6).
by dhackett1565 on Feb 24, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with his numbers suffering...
My point is last year there wasn’t a system in place where the offence was dictated by a strict coach’s hierarchy…
It was more free wheeling and Davis got more fun points and easy looks…
This year there are structured plays where Ed is designated as a screener or diversion and is taken out of position for the type of shots he was getting last year…
How many fast break points helped boost his TS% last season when he wasn’t ridden so hard to box out and remain defensively focused instead of leaking out?
There have been major changes to coaching style that have had just as much (if not more) influence over Ed’s numbers…
THIS coach effects more than just minutes on the floor… his influence actually extends into the players on the floor as well…
"the Truth"
Ed isn't supposed to shoot in Casey's system...
If Ed is taking a jumper it is because of a break down or late clock situation (for the most part)…
This is a coach’s decision that drastically effects Ed’s numbers…
Rebounding, Ed may not be collecting the same numbers he did last year, but his boxing out and positioning are much better which is allowing his team more rebounds… Again, influenced by coaching, he is playing better fundamental team ball and his individual numbers are dropping because of it…
"the Truth"
The entire teams ORB % has plummeted because of Casey's system...
Again a key indication it isn’t Ed’s fault, it’s a system issue…
And his turnovers increasing means he’s trying to pass the ball more, which yes the mistakes are his fault but it’s bound to happen when your coach demands multiple passes before a shot, which again was not the case last year…
So I stand my my observation that most people are disappointed in the individual changes that are caused by a system change, not because Ed has suddenly changed his personal game…
"the Truth"
Changing The System
and not having much practice time to learn and implement it makes it difficult on players, especially the less experienced ones who may never have played in that type of system before.
Bayless
Surely I’m not the only Raptors fan who considers him the biggest dissapointment? At the end of last year I thought he looked like our sixth man going forward, and maybe even our starting point guard. He’s taking more shots passing less and shooting worse
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