RaptorsHQ Rapid Recap: Toronto Raptors 92 - Cleveland Cavaliers 77
by Adam Francis on Jan 4, 2012 9:47 PM EST
in Raptors Rapid Recap - 2010/11
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-Can someone say .500 basketball? Because after a 92 to 77 win over the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight, that's what the Toronto Raptors are. While the Dinos let the lead they had built up early get away a few times, in the end, a 20 to 12 third quarter busted this one open, as TO spoiled Cavalier Tristan Thompson's return to Toronto.
-How did the Raps win this? How about limiting the Cavs to 29.6 per cent shooting from the field? It would be great to say it was all Dwane Casey's system, but the fact was that the Cavaliers just missed some pretty easy looks, in addition to being forced into some tough shots. In fact one could argue that Cleveland's 26 trips to the free throw line, doubling the Dinos, was the main thing that kept this from being a complete blowout.
-Toronto was led scoring-wise by Andrea Bargnani, who was simply unstoppable. It's starting to sound like a broken record strangely enough, but Bargs simply did whatever he wanted on the court, hitting 11 of his 16 shots, and getting to the free-throw line a team-high seven times for good measure. Seven rebounds, three assists and a block to go with a plus 22 on the night, is nothing to smirk at either.
-The play of Bargs overshadowed the 25 points from DeMar DeRozan in fact. While he wasn't as efficient from the floor, he did hit 50 per cent from the field, grabbed five rebounds, and did his best Ray Allen impersonation, nailing five of eight 3-pointers.
-Other than those two? Well it was a lot of "everyone" you could say, as others like Jose Calderon, Ed Davis and James Johnson made big plays and put up solid numbers in various categories. On the Cleveland side, outside of Antawn Jamison, it was pretty ugly. Jamison had 19, but it took him 19 shots to get those points, and Kyrie Irving after a couple big games, hit only three of his 13 shots.
-Want more wins? How about next up for Toronto is the beleaguered Nets squad, one that may or may not have Deron Williams in the line-up, and a W would suddenly have this club looking down at good chunk of teams in the East. Who would have thunk it?
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This start to the season with the same core as last year does call into question the coaching prowess of Triano. But it is early, maybe the chaos is still to come
Some Big Differences Are
Bargnani is now playing PF
Amir is now bulked up a bit at 255 and playing Center
Ed has replaced Reggie
Jose is healthy so far. crossing my fingers and toes on this one. LOL
DeMar has improved his outside shot significantly
The Raptors added some key veteran leadership in Carter, Jamaal and even Butler.
Casey replacing Triano
All of the above have contributed to what appears to be a better team.
by Buddahfan on Jan 4, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
A Team Effort
Except for some bad defense by Bargnani early on against the old man Jamison everyone seemed to be doing a pretty good job at what they are supposed to do. Amir did his usually good job in team and individual defense. He held Varejao without a Field Goal.
Raptors still desperately need Kleiza. Johnson and Butler are not NBA starters.
One of these days DeMar is going to go for 35+.
Kleiza’s return will open up the lane more for the Raptors on offense. Hopefully it doesn’t take him too long to get up to game shape. Hopefully he also stays healthy for the Olympics LOL
Go Lithuania.
Bargnani gave up 8 points in the first quarter to Jamison and then was off for his next 7 points in the 2nd quarter. Can we get past th e first 6minutes of a game and give the man some props?
I Guess You Didn't Listen To Devlin And Rautins
who said that Casey read the riot act to Bargnani for his early lackadaisical effort. The results were positive.
By the way Andrea seems to happy and having fun.
I don’t think Bosh ever really developed a relationship with like Amir.
I agree he didn’t play great at the start but lets give him some credit is all im saying. Antawn had 15 points with 6 minutes left in the half when Bargs checked back in. Finished with 19, he obviously turned up his effort.
I think he genuinely wants to be here and finally has someone giving him the right advice and a situation to succeed, if he keeps up his 24/6/3/1blk 52% and 80% shooting definitely should be an all star
I Don't Need To Give Him Some Credit
I am sure others will do and the results speak for themselves.
I will say this that next to Bynum, Andrea has some of the best moves around the basket for a seven footer.
If You Really Want To Give Andrea Credit
Then help him get on the all-star team.
Andrea, Jose and DeMar are on the all-star ballot. Flood the ballot box and get all your Raptors friends to do the same. I don’t know when the on-line voting will become available.
Adam or someone else needs to post the link as soon as it becomes available.
Unfair
Im watching the replay now on RapTV – 2 of Jamison’s points were off a foul by Amir, playing him straight up and two other were another foul by help defence on a nifty pass from Irving.
I watched the game – you’re assessment of Bargnani’s defence is wrong. Casey’s post game interview stressed the good defence played by both Bargnani and James Johnson.
There were a couple of post moves that Bargnani was burned on and a slow close out. All of this early though.
So
I can account about 8 of Jamisons points coming as a result of him being guarded directly by Bargnani. 8 points!
I think Bargnani dominated his foe tonight!
and Im not a fanboy – just watch the game again
Casey Didn't Yell At Amir For Not Defending Jamison
He yelled at Bargnani
Unless you want to call Devlin and Rautins liars.
Listen
You started this whole thread with “except for some bad defence by Bargnani early on …”.
Are you telling me in this whole contest you choose to specify one or two plays, and I have watched the game nearly twice, by Bargnani as the only miscues? What is your point?
Buddah, buddy, you’ve just lot some cred.
I am well aware it is six games into the season, and I am not stating that Bargnani has become a two way all-star. But give credit where it’s due? In the first six games Bargnani has played at or above Boshian level.
You’re always quoting stats – check it up buddy, Buddah
You Are In Denial Big Time
Go back and listen to the game commentary by Devlin and Rautins and hear them say that Casey chewed Andrea out for his early lackadaisical effort on defense.
I will take their word for it which happens to go along with what I saw.
Wow you have taken this to a another whole level. Read my posts over the last couple of weeks. I have not been bashing Andrea. In fact I have even complimented him and suggested that people vote for him for the all-star team.
Have you suggested that people vote for him for the all-star team?
The problem with too many fanboys is that they can only see one side of the picture just like a person who has just fallen into infatuation with another.
Everyone knows I am a fan of Amir’s but I am not going to tell anyone that Amir’s handles and footwork in the post don’t suck rotten eggs which they do. I hate it. It drives me nuts when I see Bynum with such great footwork and wonder why the hell can’t Amir develop at least average low post footwork? Its not like Amir is some big slow slug. LOL
His awful footwork bothers me even more than this fouling does.
So why not be honest with yourself about Bargnani?
Cleveland is a weak team and we did hit 3 monster threes (two by DD and 1 by Barbosa) that really stretched the lead. But once again great job at protecting the paint and running shooters off the three point line.
I don’t think the chaos is going to come because Casey won’t let it. He really has this team believing in what he wants to do on both ends and the offence has good spacing and ball movement.
Still not sold on us being a .500 team but we look like we have a game plan and system in place and the team is starting to work.
Kleiza Is the "X" Factor
If he can return and after he gets up to game shape play like he is capable of the Raptors could be pretty good if their starting unit stays healthy.
And Rautins and Devlin
Are idiots!!
Heresay -.Betcha Casey yelled at more than one player! Watch the game – if you thinkl Bargnani was guarding him for most of AJ’s points you are wrong. Basketball is noty a one on one game.
And don’t take hearsay from idiots as the gospel!
And it’s a coaches freaken job to yell at his players. Wish he’d yell at him before the game too.
All Star Ballot
I know it’s extremely early to talk about the All Star game, but what are the chances we get one (Bargnani) or even two (Calderon or DeRozen) players in? More importantly, if Calderon became an All Star (and I mean a big “if”), what could that do for potential trade talks. I love the outcomes of our games, but although it is early, I have a feeling we will be stuck with a pick between 10 and 20 on draft night
We need a legit sf in the worst way. I’m not sold on Kleiza
Raptors would be lucky to have ONE All-Star.
Bargnani probably has to beat out guys like Deng, Pierce and Garnett.
Wade, Rondo, Rose and Allen are all ahead of DeRozan and Calderon. You can probably argue a handful of other names as well (think Joe Johnson).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 4, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnani
I know Casey is trying to talk up Andrea and convince him he can be a star, but check out this quote.
"I’ve been around some great players – Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton, Kevin Garnett, Dirk. (Bargnani’s) playing at that level offensively and defensively. He’s playing at a big-time level," Casey said.
Is that a joke?
Man, they’re really trying to pump this guy up. I can comfortably say that Andrea Bargnani is not (nor will he ever be) on the same level defensively as Gary Payton and Kevin Garnett.
I’m all for acknowledging that the guy has taken steps under Casey – but this whole nonsense of trying to put him on the same level as some of the greatest players who played the game is ridiculous.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 4, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
you mentioned this the other day
that they are shoving Bargnani down our throats.
Now I know the guy is playing better. He is doing the right things offensively (namely attacking the basket) and its paying dividens by opening up space for him to shoot. The difference in his rebounding is there but small, and the same with his D. BUT he is putting in more effort, no questions asked there.
But now for the coach to put him in the territory of 3 hall of famers (2 of the top defenders in NBA history)….. When Casey’s baby used the potty did he immediately take it to harvard? The scope with which this guy gets credit is beyond anything i’ve ever seen for a player…. when he is a liability on the floor its ‘wait and see’, ’he’s an enigma’, when he steps up to the point where he is no longer a liability he is suddenly an all-star/hall of famer…..
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 4, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
so the issue isn’t how Bargnani is playing but what the coaches are saying in the media?
and here i thought we were talking basketball.
the issue is
how Bargnani has been treated.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 7:17 AM EST up reply actions
He Is Happier Now Playing With The Raptors Than He Has Been
The team is bonding and Andrea never really bonded with Bosh. Also give Casey a lot of credit for how he is handling his job.
Lets not forget that Andrea applied for Canadian citizenship. I think he feels a lot more comfortable playing with the Raptors than he ever has.
Players tend to perform harder and better when they are part of a close knit group. Hence the expressions “over performing” and “the sum is greater than the parts”
Team chemistry might not be that important on a baseball teams like Jim Leyland says but it sure as heck is important in a total team sport like basketball.
“The team is bonding and Andrea never really bonded with Bosh. Also give Casey a lot of credit for how he is handling his job.”
I actually very much agree with both of those. I’m not sure Andrea is ‘bonding’ more with the team than Bosh did… but he definetely looks mroe comfortable out there, and its not hard to give Casey credit for what this team has accomplished so far
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
I Don't Know If Bosh Has Ever Bonded With Anyone But Bosh. LOL
Just saying
If he had
with the team he might not have have bailed.
Everyone needs to calm down and stop planning the parade route. The Raptors have 3 wins and two of them are against what is expected to be one of the worst teams in the league and the other one was a NY team that has been both overrated and missing an important cog in their offense (and who lost to another bad team in Charlotte). Casey has got them moving in the right direction but lets not get too ahead of ourselves. They could easily beat NJ and they have a reasonable chance to beat Sacramento, Washington and maybe Minnesota (home game) but the rest of the month will be extremely challenging. If they finish at 500 by the end of January, then you can get excited (though it would probably just depress me as I can kiss any chance of a championship goodbye for the next 5 years).
Dark Cloud Over Your Head Eh?
Nice and sunny here in Los Angeles.
Clippers are rolling and so far 80 degrees all week and more of the same expected tomorrow
Though I did have to set the posters at Clips Nation straight when they said that all the All-Star dunk contestants should be from the Clippers
No props needed.
thank you
I feel the same way.
But………I always hold out hope. I hope DD, JV and Ed Davis can surprise.
Amir can continue to do what he is doing. Love it.
Bargs can continue to do what he has done….this year…
I hope that JJ can somehow be a small piece even though his shooting is bad.
I hope Jose can be a veteran pg on our first championship run….a few years from now.
I hope next year we pick high. I think we will pick in the middle. Casey is awesome. Maybe we should of hired Casey for next year and let Triano have one more year…
and I wish that Linas, Gray and Bayless make it as well.
by defensive rap on Jan 5, 2012 2:44 AM EST up reply actions
But more simply put
1. all the players need to improve and work hard, duh
2. a system needs to be in place and instead of catering to individual talents, we need to teach/find players that can fit into our system. The biggest mistake we made since Vince left was to try and get the system to fit the players because we wanted to win now and thought we could build around average pieces by reinventing the game. We sold the farm for a player who is currently playing on a team where he is clearly the third option and in the playoffs was valued less than Haslem and Chalmers.
We need to put the franchise ahead of the individual. I have a new favourite Raptor. Dwayne Casey. Amir, I love you too. Demar, I believe and always have despite the adversity. You were raw, you have continued to improve. I believe, keep pushing. Be fearless.
Ed, work hard and stay positive. Find your way to the top. Do not accept being average.
Andrea, if you have a new girlfriend in the last six months, keep her. Keep up the effort. I am more excited that you have 1 more rebound per game than last year than you’re recent hot shooting. Try hard on D. It inspires your team mates and me.
I think you are over simplifying things when it comes to Bosh’s value. Bosh is the third option on Miami because he is playing with 2 better players. If you traded Barney to that team he would be no better than 4th and maybe behind Haslem and Miller. As for people not appreciating what Bosh did (compared to Haslem and Chalmers), those people do not know what they are talking about as Bosh carried that team at times in their round against Chicago and it was James’ failures against Dallas that sank them not Bosh’s.
we actually agree...
Bosh may not have been a ‘franchise’ player but he is still a star. I thought Bosh was fantastic in the playoffs last year for waht was expected from him. In my opinion he is a championship #2 option, its just that Miami has two of the top 5 players in the NBA.
Bosh and Bargs
I was commenting more on the Finals versus Dallas, when Bosh was not always present in games. But Bosh is a very good player. But he is not a franchise type player that you can build a championship team around. Neither is Bargs IMO. But Bosh is very good and this year so far, Andrea has been very good as well. If he keeps it up he deserves to make the all star game but it is still way too early to tell.
by defensive rap on Jan 5, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
This is where I have always disagreed with peoples sentiments about Bosh. If you can build a championship team with Rip Hamilton and Rasheed Wallace as your best players then why not Bosh. The truth is we will probably never know as Bosh was never paired with anything remotely resembling championship team starting caliber players.
Bosh
He never had the players around him, agreed. But I still don’t think for the franchise moving forward it was best to sign him for max money. He is a great/very good player. He was also a good guy and teammate. But he was a skinny power forward who needed players around him to be successful.
Billups and Wallace were the stars of that Detroit team, and Rip was the leading scorer and Wallace was the scoring threat inside and Prince brought the intangibles at the 3…..but if you sign Bosh to 18 million+ how do you attract four more players of that calibre?
Ben Wallace got 5.5 and then Rip got 6.5, and Chauncey got 5, Prince was under a million. We were going to pay Bosh the same or close to the same money as these four combined. We would not have enough left over to build around him IMO.
by defensive rap on Jan 6, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Questions for you D Rap
Would it have been better that Bargnani got 10 rebounds and 20 points or what he did do, which was 31 points and 6 rebounds? How many points is a “rebound” worth on average?
Rebound value
I think if you try to boil down the statistics too much and get a mathematical answer for a players value, you are searching for something that you will never find. My point on the “extra” rebound was to show that while he has had a few good offensive nights, it is his effort on D that is helping us win games as much as his improved offensive stats. It is not showing in the rebounding rate as that has only improved slightly, but watch the games. He is playing more inspired D and it helps us so much.
One reason his rebounding rate has only improved a little is the pace at which we are now playing. So to me a small improvement within this new system is encouraging and means more than simple a simple bean counter can understand. I would guess the advanced stats on Bargs rebounding are up more.
The biggest difference with Andrea to me is his effort on D. I have been one to dislike Andrea’s play over the last two years but it was not his inefficient offence that concerned me or that I criticized. It was his porous D and complete lack of effort. So far, he has done a great job this season of bringing more effort on D and truthfully he seems more confidant on O as well. He is deciding to shoot and committing to the shot more and he is passing, yes actually passing, as well.
So far in this very young NBA season he is considered for the MIP.
by defensive rap on Jan 5, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think strength of schedule has been brought up already, but allow me to mention it again. Wait until 1/3 of the games don’t involve the Cavs.
Still, it’s encouraging to see what Casey has been able to do with essentially the same team Triano had at his disposal. That’s been the most glaring theme emerging from the early results.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 5, 2012 8:51 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Stength Of Schedule Argument Is BS
Give the team credit.
However if you want to go there
2 – 2 on the road. Wining on the road even against bad teams is still not a given
Raptors opponents record against the rest of the league
Boston 3 – 3
N.Y. 2 – 3
Cleveland 3 – 1
Indiana 3 – 2
Dallas 2 – 4
Orlando 4 – 2
Total 17 – 15
So the teams that the Raptors have played so far are 17 – 15 against the rest of the league excluding the Raptors.
The strength of schedule argument is just BS.
No one expects the Raptors to make the playoffs but so far they are playing even with teams whose collective record against the rest of the league so far this season is over .500
ISTM that too many Raptors fans live under a dark cloud when it comes to the Raptors. Maybe they have a historical excuse for doing that. However, ISTM that is not a good attitude to carry through life with regards to anything.
If something is putting bad energy in your life just get of it. You will be happier and live longer.
We are not being negative. We are being real. You should move to Toronto Budda as you would fit right in with the Maple Leaf faithful who think every win means a Stanely Cup route should be planned.
I Actually Thought About Moving To Toronto Decades Ago
until they destroyed the old Yorkville from the 60s and replaced it with what is there now. LOL
I prefer to try and take a level headed even keel approach. If it is working enjoy it. If it is broken try and fix it. Right now it is working pretty good. So that works for me.
Maybe another difference is that over the years I have come to look at basketball the “Sheed Way”. What is that?
Basketball as entertainment. Right now the Raptors are fun for me watch play. They are good entertainment. So I try and enjoy the moment.
Interesting Schedule Note
Raptors play in Atlanta on Monday January 16th Martin Luther King Day. Dr. King was born in Atlanta.
Now what?
Martin Luther King trying to steal Andrea’s thunder?
Keeping Are Fingers and Toes Crossed
Calderon was the early spark for the home side, besting Kyrie Irving handily again.
It happened in the opener and Calderon was stellar again against the No. 1 overall selection.
Irving looked completely flummoxed by the Spaniard, who threw him completely off kilter at both ends of the floor.
Irving looked perplexed after Calderon took a charge under the Toronto net midway through the third quarter, summing up his evening.
Calderon said his lingering hamstring issues are not bothering him at the moment and that has made a big difference in his play, which has been criticized over the past two seasons.
"Everybody knows my (injury) problems," Calderon said.
"I’m good, feeling great and you don’t forget about how to play basketball. LOL
Get Them Votes In
The coach singled out Bargnani for — of all things — his defence, particularly his ability to cover enough ground to make the defence effective.
He’s playing at an all-star level," Casey said.
You may not believe it but you can still vote for Andrea LOL
One thing I noticed about Andrea last night that I haven't really seen in the past ...
Is the look on his face after he hit a couple of 3s. He was smirking, trying to hold back the smiles. He’s working harder, and seems to be having fun this year.
Also, he may never be a lock down defender, or a 20/10 guy, but give him some credit so far this year. The guy is playing a lot better, hustling, and seems to be trying more.
Devlin and Rautins
mentioned that this is the first time they recall Andea smiling and having fun as a Raptors player.
Related fanboy add: Amir said in his post game interview that one of the reasons that the team is playing better this year is because they are bonding. Personally I don’t think that Bosh and Andrea ever connected. Amir has made it a point to befriend Andrea. It appears to have helped Andrea’s attitude and game.
A couple of stats
According to hoopsdata :
the Raps are 13th in Offensive Rating , 14th in Defensive Rating , 3rd in Rebounding Differential.
Their main drawback is their free throw differential . They average 8.69 less free throw attempts than their opponents , good for 29th in the league , ahead only of Milwaukee which is dead last.
So all in all , I’d say the team is doing pretty well. Let’s see what happens from now on :)
It Will Take Some Time
1. For the officials to adjust to the Raptors new defensive intensity. Boston for years has gotten away with a lot more sheet than the Raptors are
2. The players over time especially playing together will learn how to play good defense without having so many fouls called.
It is a process and will take some time. In the end I think it will be all for the good.
DeMar needs to be more aggressive in taking it to the basket. He does okay in this area but he needs to do better. I think once Kleiza returns his outside shooting will open up the lane a bit more so hopefully DeMar will take advantage of that and be able to get to the free throw some more if not outright score more going to the basket.
demar
Demars improvement is showing but hes not even close to his ceiling yet. By end of the year you will see him closer to his potential. As the season goes on, the improvement of demar will only help bargs as it takes the pressure off him. there is only two other teams who have two players in the top 20 in points…miami and orlando I believe! so not bad company. I think the key will be JJ as he needs to figure out how to score. He was more aggressive last game but hopefully he figures it out in the next couple weeks. Ed davis also will be important on the bench and I think once he figures out how to stay consistent hes going to be solid coming in. I beleive we will make the playoffs this year and all u fans will eat your words at end of the year and I can laugh! there wont be no tank nation trust
Who wants them to tank? haha.
I think everyone wants them to win but just didn’t see it as realistic. Orlando has two players scoring 20 a game? Orlando actually doesn’t have one as both Anderson and Dwight are just below 20. Miami at the moment doesn’t either but I’m sure Wade will get up over his 18ppg. Lakers are the only team with Bynum and Kobe.
Plz never mention JJ as a scorer when he gets the ball I feel like I am going into the jungle, I don’t know what’s going to happen and I’m scared. Ed Davis also looked better, but his teammates finally looked for him, in that second unit no one but Davis and Barbosa should be allowed to shoot.
I Am Still Waiting For DeMar To Go For 40+ In A Game
I think it will happen, it is just a question of when.
Bargnani an All-Star..
at least so far. Right now Bargnani’s numbers are ridiculous.
24ppg/6rpg/2.5apg/0.7bpg while shooting 55% fg and 82% ft.
He is a top 7 scorer in the NBA and doing it on less shots than everyone in front of him and shooting a higher percentage than everyone ahead of him but Blake and Lebron.
To be honest I would be a little shocked if he kept this up the whole year but aside from Lebron and Carmelo, who at the Forward position is playing better than Bargnani in the Eastern Conference right now? If you want to believe he has changed than you don’t need to look farther than his teammates; they believe in him.
I am getting the feeling people want him to fail just so they can say they were right. Good fans.
“I am getting the feeling people want him to fail just so they can say they were right. Good fans.”
ofcourse you do… one couldn’t be a proper Bargnani fan if one didn’t infer everyone else was biased or had some sort of agenda.
Bargnani is playing better than ever offensively, but offense has never been the issue. He’s working harder than ever, and this is the longest streak of effort we’ve ever seen him put out. But while the defense and rebounding are better, they are still not there. If he keeps putting up these kind of offensive numbers it may not matter… but the reality is the chance of him doing that are slim. Not because he can’t, but because its hard to maintain that high end offensive efficiency. Plus once this is a real playoff team, that defense and rebounding will be more important than ever.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
you want to say I’m a Bargnani fan but you are anti-Bargnani, we are opposites.
The guy is playing at an all star level and the first comment you write about is how the media is treating him and not giving him any credit for his play. He is grabbing 5.8 Defensive RPG, which is good for 22nd in the NBA, Raptors are also winning the Rebounding battle against their opponents, have the lowest opp fg%, 7th lowest opp ppg. He leads the team in minutes played and is second in +/-. If defence is about team and he is playing the most minutes he is obviosuly doing something right. That is not an opinion but actually facts. Do I think he will keep it up? Probably not, but so far he deserves some huge props from every Raptor fan, especially those that wanted to amnesty him.
next sign of proper Bargnani fan. Straight up wrong or misleading stats.
Bargnani’s 5.8 Rebs per game is good for 68th (not 22nd) in the NBA. His reb% (which makes up for factors such astime played and pace) nets him the 168th.
“If defence is about team and he is playing the most minutes he is obviosuly doing something right. That is not an opinion but actually facts”
maybe you should speak to Renato about that one…….
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Bargs has improved this season – but using raw stats like scoring average while ignoring factors like pace, etc does a bit of a disservice. That’s why people characterize Melo as a ‘superstar’ even though the Knicks are 16-18 since dealing for him.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 5, 2012 12:04 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Melo is the most overrated “superstar” in the league. He has always been inefficient offensively and although he does hit a lot of game winners that speaks more for the teams he has been on (not blowing teams out on a regular basis) then anything else.
Melo vs Bosh
I am not sure which one is more valuable.
by defensive rap on Jan 5, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
NSFS he did say 5.8 DEFENSIVE rebounds per game, not overall rebounds per game...
So he was correct on his stat… and you were on yours, but you were talking about two different things…
It has been expressed that the new system is not conducive to landing many offensive rebounds (due to the 4 men streaking back to D-Up) so including Offensive rebounds per game is unfair to Bargnani, as he is specifically asked by the coach to not concern himself with it and get back on D…
The entire team’s offensive rebounds per game has mirrored this decline…
"the Truth"
My Not so freindly friend
I can’t believe what your saying here. “But while the defense and rebounding are better, they are still not there. If he keeps putting up these kind of offensive numbers it may not matter”
After all this time of none stop promotion of how little value his offense compared to the value of his defensive short comings and you turn around and say that. Wow
since we like to quote...
Remember saying this…
“exactly what is ‘irrational’ about it? The guy is eating up a ton of cap space over the next 4 years, that will be much more valuable under a hard cap. There are zero players on this team that will use up more cap space than Andrea. None.
Trading him is a possibility but assuming he can be moved is pretty ‘irrational’ itself.
If another team wants to pick him up for less, exactly how does that impact the Raps?
Is Bargnani being Amnestied likely? No. But that hardly makes him a poor choice for amnesty.”
yep
and at that point I didn’t for the life of me believe Casey could get the effort out of him that he has, and I didn’t think it was worth the risk that he could.
I have no problems being wrong about Bargnani (or others for that matter). In fact if you look at alot of my posts about him I finish with “as always I hope I’m wrong”. So far, offensively and in terms of general effort, he has proven me wrong. Defensively and on the boards I don’t think he has at all.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
My problem with Bargnani historically
has been his offense hasn’t made up for his complete lack of defense and rebounding. Now that he has increased his offensive efficiency greatly I don’t see that as a problem any longer (ie. hasn’t been the net negative player he has been). Whether he maintains it or not I’m not sure… but there is no reason why he can’t.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. I have never been concerned with his defense as there are plenty of great players who don’t play d. My issue is that the occupies an important rebounding position and doesn’t come close to fulfilling that role successfully. Improving his offensive efficiency is a big step but he needs to bring those rebounding numbers up to about 7.5 – 8 per game as his style of play just doesn’t warrant a double digit rebounding average and that would be the equivalent.
Ryan Anderson Is Playing Pretty Good
You can compare their stats if you like.
second fiddle...
he plays with dwight and gets to spot up and shoot 8 threes a game off those double teams. plus he has the greatest play maker to ever come out of turkey feeding him the ball.
Yes,
In fantasy Ryan Anderson s=has been better, and will probably continue to be as good thanks to D12. In reality though, if Bargnani continues to try he is considerably better than Anderson.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 5, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Quick question
while Demar’s 5 3pters (and %) was impressive… was anyone else a bit concerned that he took 8 of them? I like the 3 pt threat, like that he is more comfortable taken them… but would like to see him attacking the basket to.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 5, 2012 10:57 AM EST reply actions
It’s not like he’s taking 8 per game. And he hit 5 of them last game. So I have zero issue with DeMar letting it fly.
Now, Rasual Butler on the other hand…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 5, 2012 12:06 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
demar and bargs
shalax…… what I meant was top 20 in scoring… they can average less then 20… ie demar is 15 or 16th in league and andrea is 7th in league in scoring. dwight and that anderson guy averaging 19 something but are in the top 20 in scoring
demar and 3 pt
If hes feeling it, let him shoot it! plus he needs the practice in game situation hahaha
He will still drive but last game obviously he was wide open for some! Rasual butler? he is starting to remind of of Mike james lol he had one good game and now he thinks he can hit any shot but misses them all and does not pass hahaha even the game he had 13 points… once he hit a shot he thought he was the best and kept on shooting! he will slowly find his way to the bench to start… couple more games like that and jj will start. JJ cant score either but at least he trys to drive and pass. Then Kleiza will be coming off the bench and by by to butler lol I like JJ starting cause he brings defense and energy at start… we have demar, bargs, calderon to score in first unit. what do u guys think?
Here's the problem with JJ starting
He’s great defensively, but the problem is that he has no offense whatsoever more than 5 feet from the bucket. If he’s beyond that, you are going to see more and more teams sagging off him and daring him to shoot. That means the defense has an extra body to double someone or be in a position to get the inevitable rebound. If he moves in close, you are beginning to clog the paint with defenders because Amir will be in there as well. This will make it harder for Bargnani and DD to drive for layups and dunks, which turns them into jump shooters.
I wonder who’s got the more wretched offensive game: JJ or Julian Wright?
If you go back and look at last season, I think you’ll see that the Raptors were actually better offensively with James Johnson on the floor as opposed to Linas Kleiza. And Johnson is actually the more efficient scorer of the two. But 9 out of 10 casual fans would probably describe Kleiza as the better offensive player.
You don’t have to average 20 ppg to have a positive impact offensively.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 5, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Like anybody who thinks he is a scorer, Kleiza forced shots or took some ill advised shots. Perhaps in this offence where the Raps seem to be looking less for themselves he will become more efficient. I do not need statistics to know that Kleiza is a more capable scorer than JJ, when healthy…This is coming from somebody who does not like Kleiza.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 5, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
What Little Kleiza Played Last Season
He was injured the whole time he played. I believe he actually got injured that summer.
So I don’t think we can accurately compare JJ with a healthy Kleiza.
We shall hopefully find out within the next month or two.
When is Kleiza due back?
If he has to compete with Butler, he may win the job but his d is nowhere near JJs and since we are Defensive minded team we will use JJ more.
Keliza, Butler, Forbes……maybe one of those three becomes useful, but maybe not.
by defensive rap on Jan 5, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I Think He Is Due Back In The Next Couple of Weeks
It will then take him another week or so to get into game shape.
True so I guess we will just have to wait and see how it is working out when it happens and we will something more to discuss in addition to all the other stuff. LOL
In the end
Kleiza will be the starting 3 and I think he might be a perfect fit. He’s not a great shooter but he’s not bad either, which is miles better than what Butler’s providing. He’s not great defensively but he can at least match what Butler provides. Most importantly, Kleiza is a tough dude, and his willingness to mix it up combined with competent offensive skills should bring Casey’s favour.
JJ provides a very different look and he’s the alternative to Kleiza. JJ is far better defensively. He’s also willing to mix it up and be aggressive on offense and on defense. But the guy really needs to develop a little range to his game. That would turn him into a really solid starter.
Forbes, I have no idea, but it seems to me that he’s very much a project. I wouldn’t be surprised that when Kleiza starts playing, he might end up in the D-League just to get some playing time.
Butler probably ends up on the bench.
Forbes is 26
Kinda old to be a project. He’s also already spent plenty of time in the D-League. Forbes is just a solid 14th man who should be able to play decent ball if one of our starters goes down to injury.
by IWillPartyHard on Jan 5, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Forbes Is No Project
He is either 26 or 27.
He is not going to get any better.
What he is, is a practice player used when you need 10 healthy bodies for practice which this season means he will be getting basically a free ride for however long he remains on the roster.
He could of course get some real playing time (non garbage minutes) if the Raptors have another SF go down in addition to Kleiza. Then he will have to actually earn his pay. Geez what a novel idea; i.e. having to earn one’s pay. LOL
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