Tip-In: "Pushin' and Shovin' " - Raptors Battle Nuggets but Can't Climb Out of First Quarter Hole
It was a 15 point loss in the end, but as the HQ notes, the Raps fought as best they could, ultimately unable to overcome a big early deficit...
A collection of tweets and quotes from various Raptors after last night's 96 to 81 loss to the Denver Nuggets:
DeMar DeRozan: A tough one tonight. Just have to figure the little things out & play the game like we know how to play. Just thinking to much.
Jerryd Bayless: It’s tough to dig yourself out of a hole. We’ve got to do our best to correct it. We’ve just got to play better.
Ed Davis: We gon be ight
Gary Forbes: Gunna look at it from another perspective and turn it in the right direction.
And DeMar again: Everyone has to step up. We have to believe that when Andrea is not out there, that we can do it.
I saw these quotes in my Twitter feed last night and they struck me as odd.
Not odd in the sense that basketball players never say or tweet this kind of stuff, but odd in that if you didn't watch last night's game, you'd think from these quotes that the club lost by 30 points, or was now on a 10 game losing streak.
The reality was that an overmatched team missing its best player put up a good fight, but ultimately couldn't get a win on the road, losing to one of the league's best teams.
However the loss only evens the Raptors' record on this five-game road swing, something I think most fans probably thought impossible going into Sunday's match against the New Jersey Nets. Yes, I'd wager most thought this road trip would result in maybe a win, two at best considering the competition.
So why the glum tweets?
I'd wager upon closer inspection, that they have more to do with individual issues than team ones.
Let's start with DeMar DeRozan.
DeRozan was 3 of 15 last night, totaling eight points in 33 minutes. He's now shooting under 38 per cent on the season, and has career lows nearly across the board in every category. In the past consistency was an issue with the USC alum but you can't say that this season. DeRozan has been very consistent.
Consistently bad.
Too harsh?
I don't think so, and at some point Dwane Casey is going to have to do something here. Again last night the Raptors dug themselves a huge first quarter hole that they were unable to escape, and a big part of that was DeRozan's 0 for 10 start.
Could Barbosa get the nod?
It's not impossible, although there would be some debate as to how much sense that makes. DeRozan's confidence looks shaky (he even alluded to this in his tweet about over-thinking), and a benching could make matters even worse.
Plus Barbosa has settled into a nice groove of late off the pine, so not sure you want to shake that up either.
Besides, this isn't all on DeMar.
Linas Kleiza was 1 of 7 from the field himself, and saved only by some solid numbers in other categories. Kleiza couldn't put the ball in the hoop but grabbed eight rebounds and dished out four assists.
(Not to mention participating in a nice shoving match with Al Harrington.)
And Jose Calderon hit on only 3 of his 10 attempts so there was a collective scoring drought going on besides DeMar here too. DD might be the obvious choice for a change in the starting line-up, but I wouldn't say Jose is immune to a stint off the bench either. Jerryd Bayless was 7 of 10 for 18 points in only 16 minutes so maybe it's time to give him an extended run. After all, it was the Bayless-led second unit that really got the offense going in the second half, and managed to close Denver's lead to only six points. He's still no point guard to me, but if he and Barbosa can consistently penetrate the opposing team's defence and get to the rim, something they did last night, then I'm all for giving it a shot.
That's what this season should be all about after all.
Yes, tanking sounds good if you truly believe it will result in obtaining a franchise player come June.
But we all know there's no guarantee of that whatsoever, and the last thing you want is a club left with a Washington Wizards-like disposition with which to nurture future top prospects with.
I'll take a Utah win here and there, and a team that's fighting tooth and nail every game.
That's what fans saw tonight, and despite a 12 point first quarter, and only seven points in the game's final 10 minutes or so, a shot at a win.
Now we see how coach Dwane Casey can adjust his personnel in the absence of Mr. Bargnani, to translate that fight into a few more W's as the season goes on.
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DD rant
I can officially say I’m done with DeRozan. Good athlete with limited shooting range, average ball handling and terrible defender. Doesn’t sound like your typical franchise SG tbh. Trade him before it’s too late.
In the meantime Denver got Rudy Fernandez for a 2nd round pick
I’m not sure what to think about DeRozan. I’ve seen and her first-hand about his work ethic, so he’s got that going in his favour. But I’m extremely leery about thinking we’re going to see drastic improvement in his game going forward. Look at every elite wing in the league; 90% of them showed signs of dominance by this point, most by year 2 in fact. We’ve yet to see that.
He reminds me a bit of a player he was facing last night actually, Corey Brewer. Brewer was the seventh pick in the 2007 draft based on his elite athleticism, but Brewer’s never been able to overcome poor shooting and ball handling skills, and is now on his fourth team in seven years…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
I think Demar’s biggest shortcoming is his lack of confidence. I’ve always thought he had a low self esteem. His well documented work ethic would suggest he could improve his game through the extra time he puts in the gym (his improved % from downtown this season hints at this). However, he is way too quick to get down on himself. Many people are noticing the poor body language on the court.
I think the Cory Brewer comparison is very apt. Though I’m hoping Demar takes a detour off that path. My hope is that he finds a way to make his presence felt in DC’s system. It’s not too late, we still have 2/3s of the season left. However, by season’s end, if Demar is still regressing, we should be worried.
+1
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
+1
And I think it’s also physical toughness. Judging from the look on his face, he doesn’t like contact and getting knocked down. Unfortunately that how you draw fouls.
Yep – he needs a lot more “ruthlessness” in his game.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
I just don’t see how his confidence can get better by benching him, etc. I feel like if he’s going to be an effective player for the next 10 years he needs to just play through this stuff.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 28, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Why would we want Artest? Kaman I could see, especially since he is expiring.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, same thought pattern here. Is this just an attempt to dump salary?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
lol, yup salary matching and Ron's attempting three's that are hurting the Lakers...
He can play smart defence though, and he’s tough…
Fits our group in that sense…
And yes we would get one pick from each of the Lakers and the Hornets…
"the Truth"
I posted this an hour ago on the Rapid recap, but since we a re likely done with that thread I'll post it here again.
My brother made a funny comment to me the other day. He said, “if the Toronto Raptors are ‘building’, they may want to check their foundation”. I’m not ready to put our youthful core out to pasture, yet. However, it gets increasingly frustrating to watch our building blocks flounder this season. A. Johnson, Davis and Derozan have all regressed this season. It’s hard to watch and be optimistic about the futur of the team. I’ve got to believe that the young fellas just need more time to adjust to Casey’s system. At some point, we need to see some progress in some area.
this is certainly a big concern, DeRozan in particular. You know AJ and Ed could become great role players at the very best, you don’t really see them as future stars for this team. They’re young, raw big men that could develop into solid front court players even for a good team. Big men always need more time to develop Ed in particular is a long, lefty shot blocker and that’s something you want to keep.
DD is different. In his third year, in this team, in this role he should do sooooooo much better than he’s done so far. And it’s not just a matter of stats. Can’t shoot, can’t handle the ball, can’t pass, can’t defend what can he do? and his body language… Right now DD could only be a bad starter for a bad team. I say TRADE
Completely agree regarding the foundation, and was the reason I posted this a few weeks ago:
Posterized you’re absolutely right in that if you look at the team’s wins this year, the young core has RARELY been the deciding factor in said victories. Amir has definitely had an influence, but lately he just hasn’t gotten the playing time needed.
So the club needs more top talent…bring on the draft and Big Val.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Alprazolam!!!!!! For everybody!
read another sight where Amir being benched in favor of Gray has something to do with the poor start.
OK…this is officially the Twilight Zone. I even hear the music.
Gray had 7 rebounds in 5 minutes, finishing with 11 on 15 minutes of play.
Anybody here have any issue with this needs to find another sport.
He set up tons of shot looks, picks for his fellow teammates only to see a 1 for 15 shooting nightmare.
Amir had just 1 minute less time and finished with ONE rebound.
I saw some unbelievable picks, 2 of which sent down the opposing player to the floor.
Giving Gray the start on THIS team is smart. Next year, IF he is here, sees him off the bench and supporting the Euro Great Hope.
Thisd team needs shooting.
ANYBODY who can shoot.
The shooting is desparate and wrist cutting.
The amount of Zoloft sold in Canada must be on the rise!!
I would start putting Zolft and Alprazolaminto the drinking water in Toronto!!!
Called out Gray for his play and yeah, Amir hasn’t looked good of late. Was loving the screens Gray and Magloire were setting!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Magloire
Not having been a folower of the Raps,I am not familiar with Mags.
He seems like an interesting player when looking at his physical abilities.
Is there something he did wrong last year(s) and perhaps something else?
I kind of like his size and stuff.
I was thinking he should be more a player and wondered what Casey does not like about him.
In my opinion, Gray is in solid with Casey.
Casey, being such a defense guy, must love watching Gray directing other players around and shouting out warnings while on defense.
Talk is a big, BIG deal on defense.
“Yes, tanking sounds good if you truly believe it will result in obtaining a franchise player come June.
But we all know there’s no guarantee of that whatsoever, and the last thing you want is a club left with a Washington Wizards-like disposition with which to nurture future top prospects with."
Not ‘tanking’ scares me more than not getting a Franchise player this offseason (which I agree is never a guarantee). This team needs talent at so many different positions.
As Posterized mentioned above, this team’s foundation is terrible. Its going to take alot of time to get there and more tearing down needs to be done.
What we see today is the end result of building around a non-franchise player, plugging holes with one dimensional players and failed big risks when the team wasn’t good enough to take those risks.
As bad as Washington is I’d rather have that line up and position than where Toronto is (was wondering what Washington would look like with Casey as coach?). I for one hope BC doesn’t repeat his mistakes of the past…
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 28, 2012 9:13 AM EST reply actions
To be clear, I don’t think Toronto HAS the talent to win many games, so I’m not concerned. However I also loathe that Wizards’ organization so I’m hoping this rebuild takes on a more of an OKC form in terms of turnaround. If you recall, the Thunder reeled off some big wins even when they were terrible. One of the clubs they beat was Toronto actually, and that was during the Raptors’ Bosh days of 40ish wins.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
DeRozan needs to be benched….I like DeMar better than Barbosa, and even though Barbosa is a chucker, he is just a better player than DeMar right now.
While I have thrown around some ideas about trading DeMar because I do not think he fits in with what we have right now, I am going to to try to cool it on that from. While I have always felt that DeMar will never be an all-star. I love his willingness to put in work. I am hopeful that he can turn into a consistently useful player one day.
A line up that I would like to see A FEW minutes a night is Barbosa (by far our fastest player), Bayless, DeRozan, James Johnson, Amir.
Amir needs to sit until he is healthy enough to go out there and give us the 20-25 energized minutes that he is capable of playing when healthy…
Ed Davis is in my dog house.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 9:34 AM EST reply actions
SAFE TO IGNORE, UNLESS YOU WANT TO PLAY MAKE BELIEVE...
I know that I said I would cool it with ideas that involve shipping DeMar and Ed out, but I can not help it…
I do that they do not NEED to be traded. I know that we should wait on them to see how they develop, and only deal them if something good comes along, but just for fun…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=87wzunm
The Wizards need to blow up that mess of attitudes they have in Washington. DeMar and Ed are pretty solid citizens and could run with John Wall…I know that some will argue that DeMar is not really much better than Nick Young or Jordan Crawford right now, but I think it is safe to say that his attitude and upside are better than theirs.
I am guessing that the Celtic veterans would be able to break down the attitude and poor habits that Blatche has. He could be a force off their bench. Turiaf is a tough, playoff tested vet to replace J.O.
We get JaVale. Raw as anything, but his shot blocking/shot altering potential is off the charts. I would love to see a 3 headed monster of Bargs/Val/JaVale. They are all so different in terms of what they bring to the table.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 10:00 AM EST reply actions
I was throwing Wizards ideas around in my head last week, even the idea of bringing Wall here if BC was willing to give up, say, a top 3 pick in this draft if Toronto were to land it. Because I completely agree with your statement regarding DeRozan vs Crawford and Young, and a change of scenery and a better environment might do a number of those players a world of good.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Al Harrington: “HARRINGTON RIP PUNY RUDY IN HALF!!!”
Rudy Fernandez: “Hmmm, there is a chance I may be ripped in half.”
Linas Kleiza: “HA! He’s totally going to rip Rudy in half!”
I wasn't there to hear the conversation...
…but based on the picture above, I think it is safe to assume it went a little somethjing like that.
half serviceable?
Our firend franchise is starting to have very high standards if the 5th (or fourhy) scorer in the NBA while being the best in PPP on defense (andrea) is “half serviceable”. I guess nobody south of Lebron Chamberlain will be “adequate” to his now very sophisticate palate…….
Don't trade DeRozan unless you are CLEARLY making the team better
All the above trade proposals are backward moves and don’t improve the raptors in the long run.
Demar’s play right now and body language in particular is worrying but you don’t just trade a guy because he didn’t turn into an all star. He should be kept and given a role on the team to suit his abilities. That may be 6th 7th or 8th man off the bench and that’s fine.
The biggest problem with the Raptors is they’ve historically put mediocre players in prominent positions (J. moon, A Parker, J Graham, Rasho N., Mo Pete etc etc.) and asked them to perform like starters when they should be bench players. DeRozan may (still too early to write him off) be in that category if he continues to play like this but retain the starting position going forward.
M29,
I agree with your assessment of DeRozan. I think he could grow into a useful role player if he gains some confidence.
However, I fail to see how adding somebody who has the potential to be an elite defender in JaVale McGee is a step back in terms of future growth. Look at how Tyson Chandler grew up under Casey. McGee has the chance to be even better than Chandler was last year. If the deal I proposed were really a possibility, I would roll the dice!
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't like the trade because
McGee has potential and so does DeRozan and Davis but the Raptors are giving up 2 guys with potential for one guy with potential and a bad attitude. It doesn’t make sense when we have JV coming over next year.
To me we would be giving up DeRozan and Davis cheaply and don’t become clearly better in that trade. We have a young athletic SG who should be kept until we find a better one.
Unfortunately, DeRozan ranks as potentially the worst shooting guard in the league right now based on various metrics so finding a better one could be Mo Williams at this point.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
I don't mind trading DeRozan for a better SG as long as 5yrs from now that player
is still going to be better than DeRozan. I wouldn’t easily trade him right now tho, not at 22yrs old. As for the trade proposals above, none of them include a young promising SG coming back so to me they don’t make sense. I get the impression that fans just want to trade away young players for anything if they aren’t immediately turning into stars. DD may end up being a useful bench player going forward and there is nothing wrong with that.
Aaah, the lure of “upside” and “youth” eh?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think the issue here is complicated by the fact that there are not a lot of high end 2’s in this draft(yet). I am totally concerned with Demar’s regression but I agree that trading him away just for the sake of it is pointless as there isn’t much out there that has the same upside. I am still vexed he was drafted in the first place for so many reasons but if we gave Barney 20 years to have 13 good games, maybe we should just let him play through this stretch and hope he figures it out.
Jose is a different story. i like him but many of us thought he should have come off the bench behind Bayless last year. We need to let Bayless run amok and see if anything is there or not. This team is in sorry shape and if we need to draft every position over (with exception of PF/C) then lets find out.
Bad attitude, low IQ – those things were said about Amir once upon a time…He’s grown up in Toronto. So could McGee. We actually have some good guys here and a coach that would demand professionalism. Plus anywhere is a better environment than that messed up Washington club house.
Two players with solid potential for one with freakish potential sounds good to me. I do not think McGee kills the potential of Val or Bargs. They are all very different, and any two of the 3 could be on the floor together. Plus, you could play all 3 in a massive zone, with Bargs playing the 3 on offense.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 11:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
speaking of SG's
how about famous headcase JR Smith? he’ll be back from China as a FA in about a month, not sure how many teams would like to take a chance on him now.
maybe he could find his niche in Toronto as starting SG, headcase yes but he certainly has the skills…
I always liked Smith but his attitude man, its risky
You can only hope that he’s matured and is ready to play the game the right way. I watched him a lot when I wanted the Raps to trade for him and noticed he was streaky. Some games he lit it up and others he stunk it up. He’s not a poster boy for consistency.
No on JR…his athletic ability will be fading soon
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 11:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
who knows there’s a tiny chance his experience in China might have taught him one thing or two about life. At 27 he must decide if he wants to be a legit starting SG in this league, and maybe Toronto and DC could give him the chance to prove himself.
we could certainly use his offensive talent and scoring abilities, especially when we regularly fail to score 80 pts…
by TFC Academy on Jan 28, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
True enough
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 12:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Big Lamb fan too – already think he would be an upgrade over DeMar because he can, you know, shoot.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 28, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
like him a lot.
even better if we could trade for another lottery pick and get Barnes or MKG plus Lamb.
by TFC Academy on Jan 28, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
If we came away with any 2 of Barnes, MKG, Lamb and a PG (Kabongo, Teague, Marshall)
We would have done extremely well in this draft. The thing is tho, if BC has failed to acquire another pick in previous years, I don’t see him getting one in this draft.
Just read an article abt Raps being open to trading Calderon
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=77f4kym
Phoenix gets Raptors 2012 2nd round pick
Raptors get one of Lakers 2012 1st round picks
Steve Nash will command so much more than that if he tells the Suns decide to deal him.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
I personally wouldn't trade Jose tho
As a matter of fact, I’d resign him after his contract expires and make him our back-up.
That is what I think will happen unless we are blown away. The Knicks and Lakers are the 2 teams that could use Jose the most, but they have nothing of interest IMO.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
lakers
have their first rounder and dallas’s first round pick (top 20 protected)
Is the TPE that they got for Odom large enough? Because I wouldn’t want Metta World Peace, Luke Walton or any other junk coming with the picks.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
I would like that…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 28, 2012 8:39 PM EST reply actions





























