Tip-In: "Heart", Toronto beats Utah 111-106 in 2OT
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 26, 2012 8:01 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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PrintIt took double overtime and a lot of headache to determine the outcome of this game. The Jazz and Raptors left everything on the floor and in the end, the Raptors took it. Kinnon Yee recaps an emotional one
This one's for Bargs.
When Andrea Bargnani came out of the game in OT, dejected, limping, and angry you knew it wasn't good.
But the frustration on his face told a whole other story. It told me that the young man who had endured all the criticism for his entire NBA career, the man who has taken the reigns of a club that seems destined for another year of rebuilding, has just grown up.
For those that worry if Bargnani "gets it", the way he took to the bench, the way he pulled at his hair, and the way he wanted to get back in the game even though he was injured just answered the questions.
It all started out as an innocuous game in a back-to-back. After the competitive win the other night against the Suns, the Raptors came into Utah and laid down a pretty ugly one and a half quarters of basketball. But they were in it because they kept the Utah playing messy and ugly basketball. With turnovers mounting at the half, the Raptors managed to tie it at 50 going into the second half of the game.
The Raptors hung around thanks to Bargnani's shot making ability, some good (yet sporatic) offense from his teammates Leandro Barbosa, Linas Kleiza, and DeMar DeRozan, but just couldn't seem to make stops to create separation. The Raptors threw zone defense at the Jazz which seemed to confuse them at times, but the Jazz continued to pound the ball inside.
Devin Harris and Paul Millsap just ate through the Raptors defense, and with Al Jefferson sidelined, Derrick Favors got the call and put in some respectable, if unspectacular minutes. The Jazz were on pace for 100 points going into the fourth.
That all changed.
The Raptors defense suddenly decided to turn on and the hometown boys managed to hold the Jazz down to 15 points. A lot of the defensive stops came once again thanks to the quick feet of the Raptors players like Andrea Bargnani and James Johnson. Down the stretch, Johnson would help out the Raptors and record a career best 6 blocks. Unfortunately, their offense and legs seemed to disappear as well, and it was a slow slog through the fourth. It took a Jose Calderon shot to force overtime and the Raptors seemed to have the momentum.
The first OT seemed to be within the Raptors' grasp as they just seemed to be able to make more shots and play with the lead a lot more than the Jazz could. The Raptors defense continued to make life difficult for the Jazz and with players like Linas Kleiza continuing to step it up, the Raptors managed to find some offense too. The momentum seemed to be all in the Raptors favour.
Until Bargnani went down with re-straining his calf. You could feel it from the bench just how much Bargnani wanted to win this game. His teammates seemed to rally around this fact and continued to play hard down the end. With the team up by three and seconds left, it seemed like that was accomplished.
Then Paul Millsap made a 3 pointer to send the game into a second overtime. The Jazz just would not let it go.
In the second overtime, the Raptors continued to slog it out with Linas Kleiza being the offensive catalyst. On the defensive side, James Johnson continued to be very effective in his collapse help and once Amir Johnson was inserted for Aaron Gray, the Raptors completely shut down the Jazz bigs. Jose Calderon hit the final dagger with the clock winding down on a broken play and the Raptors ended another long losing streak.
In what has been undoubtedly the Raptors' hardest earned victory of the year, you have to applaud the effort all around. From Kleiza continuing to drive the offense without Bargnani around, to Jose Calderon stepping up and hitting clutch shots, the offense didn't completely collapse without Bargnani. On defense, James Johnson was a constant threat to block your shot and Kleiza is now providing the Raptors valuable minutes as an additional power forward.
Nevertheless, this team without Andrea Bargnani will continue to struggle. We've seen it this year already how much they miss his offense, his help and pick and roll defense, and now surprisingly, his heart. More and more Bargnani is stepping up into the limelight and more and more he's showing the passion and leadership that the organization has been waiting for. It's this maturity of emotion that's been almost six years in the making and it'll be this emotion that continues to drive this team forward in the future.
It's his heart that we've been missing all this time and it'll be his heart that continues to drive this team in the future.
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2 comments
1) As I noted yesterday, Bargnani is now essentially tied for 5th in NBA scoring with Carmelo… one more game where Melo tries to be a passer to keep Amare happy (and stays at say 20 points or under), and Bargs will be alone in 5th — albeit without enough games played to truly qualify for the list. Keep this in mind when the All-Star game rolls around and people are raving about Carmelo and his highly inefficient 23 PPG!
2) With Bargs out, I’d try putting Kleiza in as PF with Amir or Gray starting at C. Derozan still can’t hit his shot consistently (most of his points were layups and FTs), so the starting 5 would be BRUTAL if you had something like Jose/DD/JJ/Amir/Gray.
I didn’t see that as a gutsy performance, as much as I saw a bad game where someone had to win. Raps came out looking like the 2010/11 team but Utah’s bench was just plain bad. I do give Toronto’s D credit as Utah could do nothing against the zone.
It was perhaps the least exciting double over time game I’ve watched, even with big shots and plays down the stetch.
Every Raptors Starter a -, every Utah starter a + (except milsap at -2), every raptor bench player a +, every Utah bench player a -
not something that instills confidence in me regarding this team going forward.
However there was a sign of the apocolpyse last night… Kleiza was a mis-match instead of being mis-matched!
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 26, 2012 8:16 AM EST reply actions
however...i really felt bad for Bargs not being in there as
he really seemed to want the game.
But you are right, other than some impressive stops, there were as many…or lots more…unbelievable stupid plays.
I do not care what is said about Bayles..he is a knucklehead player. I still see him as a team emotion killer with his desire to take his shots regardless to what NBA reality is happening before all our eyes.
And ditto for Jose…I still see him as a poor dribler and does NOT have the eyes other great points have. I see to many opportunities for interior passes he seems to just be blind to.
agree about
Bargnani, was nice to see some emotion coming from him.
Agreed on Bayless. Thought he was terrible last night. Have no idea how he racked up more than 1 assist. Maybe the stats guy just gave Bayless an assist for each pass he made.
I don’t agree on Jose. Jose has always been substance over style. His passes are to the right guys at the right time rather than amazing passes you never saw coming. But his D last night was horrendous. Harris carved him up like a hot knife through butter.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 26, 2012 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
It's a lot easier to see all the passing lanes when yo're watching from a removed perspective on TV...
You literally can see the whole court at once, at a glance…
"the Truth"
well...I was talking about Jose when compared to other great PGs
not myself.
I understand we as fans have extremely powerful talents and are in fact better than the players and more brilliant than the coaching staff…but really….
I guess after watching CP tear apart other teams with unbelievable vision, I sort of expect this ability from all PGs, when really maybe CP is just brilliant and holding others to that standard is unfair.
Having seen a great many pro games from the floor or no higher than row 5, I am aghast at how anybody sees anything other than complete chaos!
I see confusion and all blurriness.
And when I sat under the basket on the floor once, I came away wondering why everybody doesn’t foul out!
The entire inside game in nothing more than holding, pushing and scratching!
It is one hell of a violent place to work!
We talk about our bigs getting into foul trouble?
Well, having seen the game that close, its a wonder that don’t have 5 fouls before half time!
Umm, well if you're going to compare him to the other point guards in the league then I guess Assist to Turnover ratio is probably the best measure of good vision...
And Jose is one of the very best in this category…
So, I fail to see where his vision is lacking…
I think you’re confusing flashy delivery with court vision…
Jose makes safe, sure passes (at a much higher than average rate I might add) and he turns the ball over very little… This can’t be attributed to anything OTHER than great court vision…
Maybe you just really want to live in Lob City…
Throwing a bounce pass to an open man in the post is just as “visionary” as tossing an alley-oop… Also you have to look at who is catching those passes as the lack of talent / hustle / etc. that Jose may have to work with certainly isn’t his fault…
I for one don’t want him trying to throw Aaron Gray 2-3 times a game…
When Amir is healthy and on his game, they have a deadly high-flying act… but that’s because Amir understands the pick and roll and how to make good cuts…
Ed Davis doesn’t have that knowledge yet, DeMar is too soft to go hard often…
Jose doesn’t have the receivers that CP3 has… that’s all…
"the Truth"
I for one don’t want him trying to throw Aaron Gray 2-3 times a game…
LOL, that would be quite a sight I’m sure…
I meant I don’t want him throwing Gray 2-3 LOBS per game…
"the Truth"
As for Gray...
I am sure he would add to an offense but not sure they have many, if any, plays with his name on them.
Perhaps as a 3rd or 4th option.
Again, however..this is a coaching error.
I personally think you need to start inside, then work out.
But this is an insane narrow mindedness on my part. I suppose I should be more open to other basketball throry, but I am not.
And you paint an awfully painful picture with Gray trying to lob! OMG! No. Hell no!
But to close this, I still am not a believer in Jose as a sharp play maker.
the ratio you are talking about is another stat I stay clear of. As with the +/- stat or even most stats…it all depends upon other players on a person’s team that hold the devil in the details.
The fact you play safe ball doesn’t excite me. I want somebody who does more than safety first…as a point guard.
I want somebody who strikes fear into others.
So Gilbert Arenas is your man then? lol ... just saying...
Just kidding, I totally get what you’re saying about liking exciting ball, I just disagree with your perception of entertainment value being the measure of Jose’s court vision.
There are a heck of a lot of And1 ballers who have flash for days, but would they lead a team deep into the playoffs? Ask “Skip to my Lou” aka Rafer Alston…
Great mix tape of highlights and embarassing ankle breakers… but no substance worthy of leading a contender…
"the Truth"
Alston was the PG most of the way through the Magic’s run to the finals a few years ago. He would have been a great PG if he could have kept his head on straight and improved his jump shot.
Just saying…
by DW19 on Jan 26, 2012 3:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lol, okay bad example...
Point being, entertaining is not always good for the win/loss column…
And in my eyes, winning (on the grand stage) is entertaining regardless of how tediously it is achieved…
"the Truth"
I guess this is all my fault
somehow I must have expressed that I wanted exciting over good.
Not really.
But would you put Jose in the same category as say…Stockman?
I don’t think so.
So what makes them different?
In my opinion…it is the skill of seeing and passing.
Stockton – Career 3.75 Assists for every turnover and 10.5 assists per game
Calderon – Career 4.12 Assists for every turnover and 7.1 assists per game
So while racking up 3 less assists per game, admittedly, Jose Calderon has made 1 less mistake per game.
Not too bad when compared to one of the 50 greatest NBA players of all time, and a Hall of Famer…
I would say he sees just fine, and has been surrounded by a less talented team all the while…
Ask yourself this, how many of Jose’s passes should be added to his assist totals if he had guys that could hit shots?
He is probably robbed of 3-5 assists per game on average because of terrible shooting team mates…
Don’t get me wrong Stockton’s teams didn’t hit all their shots either, but they were inarguably a more skilled team that helped boost his numbers…
Jose has put up hall of fame numbers on a bottom feeding team…
When you’re talking about assists, this isn’t the same as being the top scorer on a crappy team…
It isn’t like winning Gold at the Special Olympics, where you’re still special at the end of the day…
Getting a lot of assists out of a team who can’t shoot a lick is actually more impressive…
"the Truth"
And Stockman ...
Had the Mailman for how many years? Also, you talk about flashy and fear? I wouldn’t use either of those words to describe him.
It’s a crime for which one should have their basketball-discussing privileges suspended.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe he means Antoine Stockman?
http://www.latinbasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=BRA&PlayerID=57161&AmNotSure=1
I don't agree
…does NOT have the eyes other great points have. I see to many opportunities for interior passes he seems to just be blind to.
Could it be that Jose is just a careful point guard who doesn’t try to force tough passes? Historically, he’s had a very high assist to turnover ratio.
And the key here is that not only does he have a high assist to turnover ratio, but does so while being top 5 in the league in assists. So it’s not like he’s so safe that he doesn’t get the ball to someone in a good position to score.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 26, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Calderon & Bayless
Jose is great at running an offence, always is among the league leaders in assists per game, near the top in assist to turnover ratio and shoots the ball pretty efficiently for a pg… u can’t really ask for too much more than that from ur starting pg… granted, he doesn’t have the vision of CP3 but besides Chris Paul, who really does? And anyways, Jose has always been more about making safe, solid decisions with the basketball than the flashy ones… His D was terrible last night though, Harris got by him with ease
The more I see of Bayless, the more I cannot accept him being even a backup pg on our team… there were at least 2 times where guys were WIDE OPEN for 3 pointers off of a high pick and roll but he chose to shoot himself, a long contested 2 at that, which obviously missed both times… Plus, another time down the floor shooting a fairly long 2 early in the shot clock that led to a long rebound and a fast break by the Jazz… It even drew the ire of the commentators
my favorites to make my point...
My very favorite…Steve Nash
Brandon Jennings
CP3
Stephan Curry
Deron Williams
I know there are more…I just can’t think right now.
And some of my OLD favs…
John Lucas
Ron Harper
Gosh…I can’t even recall all those fun old timers!
Shoot…right now I can’t even remember the PG for my fav team growing up..the early 1968 to 73 Bulls!
+1 I thought Bayless might show something this year, but I do not think he seems like he will get it enough to play the point, and he is undermanned and overconfident as a scoring guard. If this keeps up much longer, I will not be hoping he comes back.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Not gutsy?
OK maybe not – but tell me. The Raptors just won two back-to-back road games against no slouches. Tell me, when you were checking the schedule did you have us down for any W’s in these two games.
Sloppy? Back to back, against two teams that have ripped us apart in the last decade?
There must be something good to be said
and
Phoenix was also on a back to back and Utah without Jefferson.
I don’t put any team the Raps play as Ws. What those teams have done over the last decade is really not important as those teams are significantly different (weaker) from even just last year.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 26, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Utah, although missing Jefferson, was 8-2 at home before the Raps. Steve Nash as an individual hadn’t lost to the Raps in his entire career – even last year with a similarly defunct Suns squad.
Here’s something: In the past 5 years, this is the only instance when the Raps will have a .500 or better record on a 4-games-or-longer west coast road trip (they take about 2 of these per year). The Raps ALWAYS do terribly on these road trips, even losing to terrible teams like Sacramento, etc. To even beat a bad team and a slightly undermanned good team on one of these road trips is quite an accomplishment, based on recent history.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
who is the raps trainer?????
look..I KNOW about calf inguries!
As a tennis player, the sport of ALL calf ingury sports…we know that there are several things for this.
First…PREVENT them. Special stretches are an absolute must before any game and after slight warm ups.
Second..One you ever suffer from one, the initial care and rehab are all extremely important. IF you do not do thse as required, you will not only have another, but perhaps more often and all of them worse.
So that rehab..with all the delicate stretches and painful rubdowns of the area are terribly important. That torn bunched up area has to be worked properly!
How dare they not do this for Bargs!
I don’t recall him doing any slight stretches of his heels and calfs during breaks.
I only hope they did and then he heals properly.
I never heard of this ingury coming back IF EVERYTHING is done with the proper care.
Scott McCullough
http://nbata.com/AboutUs/MemberDirectory/TorontoRaptors/tabid/1669/Default.aspx
And the picture listed here is quite interesting.
I'm sure D. Stance would agree
This was a pyrrhic victory … Overplaying Bargnani and having him injured was not worth this win.
That said, it was epic to finally beat the jazz in Utah, who were 8-2 at home, second night of a back to back … Maybe the most exciting raptors game in a couple years, like the London games but the w makes it sweeter. Though I would’ve been happy even if they hadn’t pulled it out.
All those shades of red Bargnani turned after he got hurt and all the taps and pats from the team in support was really something to see. A shame because it really douses his run at all-star contention and may have been a turning point for the raptors in terms of confidence.
Even if he doesn’t get hurt, you can’t actually believe that he would be picked to play in the All-star game do you? Who do you tell not to come instead of him?
Bosh
Garnett
Boozer
Josh Smith
Amare
well
Garnett, tis year , yes
Boozer, hell yes Josh smith debateable
Bosh debateable
Amare, hell yes
you have a “grass is greener everywhere else” syndrom
Not the issue. Garnett may not deserve to go this year but he will go because he is Garnett and Bargnani is having 1/2 a good season. That is simply not enough when you have a guy like Garnett who has had a whole career of good seasons. As for Bosh being debatable, are you nuts? Do not confuse a player having a good year on a bad team with an every year all-star who is an integral part of a championship capable team.
well
Bosh had a pathetic year last year and was tun out of the building when he plaid against Andrea:
Andrea 38/5
Bosh 15/7 (if I am not mistaken)
playing against each other
the 38/5 was with good %
so if you want to put Bosh in becasue he has been an all star before, you can say the same to Magloire
Renato, your hatred of Bosh is as transparent as your love of Andrea : p
If you follow the votes, you know that Lebron and Carmelo are ahead of the rest of the pack by like 4 or 5 hundred thousand votes. So they are in. Bosh will be in because, as much as I hate to admit it, he is having a great season and is a big reason the Miami Heat are fighting for top spot in the east, despite missing D-Wade. I believe that leaves room for one more forward. Although Andrea has been outplaying the best of the rest this season, 12 games of solid play may not be enough to shake the five years of under achieving he’s been notorious for. Josh Smith is an all around great talent and Amare has a more proven track record (which, like it or not is a big thing among coaches). I’d love to see him get in (and in fact I vote for him everyday), I just don’t see it happening this year.
I have no problem at all with Chris
in the past years, when he was playing in TO I always said he was the best player of the team. Point is we are debating of the 2012 ASG, not about last year one or the one of the year before.
Fair enough
But Bosh is still putting up similar numbers to Andrea this season, but on a much better team.
However
I apreciate you touching wood
but Andrea’s play has been way beyond solid
You are missing the point though. Bosh has been very good for at least 4 or 5 years now while Barney has had 1 good month. Lets enshrine him in the hall of fame now and get it over with. The all-star game recognises talents beyond a single half season otherwise we could talk about someone like Ryan Anderson getting in this year too (numbers are not as good as Barney’s but he does play on a better team). Bargnani will not be an all-star unless there are more injuries between now and the all-star break (and he actually gets back onto the court for more than 13 games.
12 games does not get you into the All-Star game
Sorry, you have to take the last half of the year and playoffs (if any) into consideration.
I argue that stats have close to nothing to do with All Star FAN voting...
You’re talking about coaches picks for the game, which I agree with and respect…
But fan voting is based on geography and popularity…
All of Toronto and half of Canada should be voting for “OUR GUY” because he’s not a laughable option statistically at the moment, but more importantly, HE’S OUR GUY…
"the Truth"
Did Yao Ming deserve to be the highest vote getter for umpteen years?
Not based on statistics, because he wasn’t even playing…
But that isn’t what fan voting is about…
"the Truth"
Can’t agree with this. All-star voting should be based on merit not geography or team allegiance. I guess since fans have the right to vote they also have the right to vote however they want. However, for my vote, its the best players in the game based on a reasonable body of work. Using the ridiculous example of Yao Ming is problematic. Just because it was wrong to include him doesn’t mean every one should just vote based on ethnic, regional or team affinity.
All I'm saying is that the majority of people (granted the MAJORITY of people are typically casual fans) want to have their team represented in the All Star game...
If your team has a player who is worthy of being “in the discussion” then the casual fan will try his darndest to get him voted in. There may be better options, but if they aren’t laughably better (Michael Jordan Dwayne Wade vs DeMar DeRozan) then many, many people will vote for the home team symbol…
It’s understandable…
And the coaches get to pick the statistically deserving players who were overlooked or unfairly passed over…
So most people vote by popularity rather than numbers…
"the Truth"
Dude, I’m not debating that some fans vote by poularity etc., I’m debating that you said fans SHOULD vote this way. I’m saying they shouldn’t.
“All of Toronto and half of Canada should be voting for "OUR GUY" because he’s not a laughable option statistically at the moment, but more importantly, HE’S OUR GUY…”
My point is no, the SHOULD vote for the best players available.
MAS, you' re the king of having words put in your mouth, then you go do it to me...
Find where I said they should vote that way… I never did, I said I can understand it…
"the Truth"
by Mikthaniel on Jan 26, 2012 11:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Ah, nevermind... I see that I did word it that way, sorry
I was meaning the mentality of most fans is we should vote for our guy… Not necessarily that I think we should…
Should have made that more clear…
"the Truth"
by Mikthaniel on Jan 26, 2012 11:45 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Bosh debatable?
Obviously a guy who 1) hasn’t watched a Heat game since D Wade has been out, 2) Not involved in any Fantasy basketball pools whatsoever.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3707/gamelog;ylt=An5mAp7QG3auKclHw6HgrrMPKB4
Crazy stupid efficient over the last two weeks shooting nearly 60%, getting to the line,
It's also a stretch...
to say Bosh had a pathetic year last year when he averaged 19 points and 8 boards for a team that went to the NBA finals. Furthermore, how the hell can you bring up last year for Bosh and ignore Bargnani’s TRULY PATHETIC last year???? Typical…
You don't change...
When the Raps do well you are pretty much absent but when they struggle you are all bile and crap.
Last year it was hate Bargs and you still have a go when possible and this year I believe is DD.
by Canuck Exile on Jan 26, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
When was the last time they did well? Counting 2 games is hardly doing well.
P.S. Derozan deserves to be criticized for his play as with the amount he plays his numbers should be more solid and he should be taking this team over. Maybe he will come around in 3 more years like Bargnani or maybe he is a bust. That doesn’t change the fact that he deserves some lambasting on his less than stellar play this year.
Not really my point
According to MAS Bargs was worth nothing and suggested cancelling his contract. Now that he is doing well he has turned his attention to DD in a similar fashion.
And as for the two games, it is more to do with when they win he is rather quiet and when they lose he loses all perspective…
by Canuck Exile on Jan 26, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/
There you go. At Doug Smith’s blog you will here how nothing much maters, all the management/coaching decisions were the right ones and all the players are awesome.
You know what Canuck Exile, news flash, the Raptors won 22 games last year and are on pace for a similarly frustrating season. So yeah, your going to hear some criticism.
For he record, I liked DeRozan’s chances of becoming special coming into this year. But you know what, he’s been playing pretty badly. I’m not the only one to notice that. So sorry if reality is “negative for you”. Maybe you shouldn’t have conversations with adults if you need to be sheltered…
Piece of advice
Hang your hat on the fact that your boy Bargnani appears to have finally figured it out in his 6th season. I’d be aware of the small 12-game sample size – but still, his play has been surprisingly good so far.
But man, if you’re going to become a DeRozan apologist, you’ve got your work cut out for you. The guy should be breaking out in his 3rd season. Instead, he’s going the other way.
Pick your battles.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Actually it was a commment on the need to find a person to hate beyond reason...
Want me to post some of his past efforts – including the ones where he was accused of being racist against Europeans? Or are you just going to rewrite history?
As for you DS, thought you had finally seen the way of being reasonable in the face of adversity? You know not to hit the nuclear option just because things are not going well…
That’s why I and others queried you ability to write blogs for this site!
by Canuck Exile on Jan 27, 2012 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
Go ahead and find examples. And those who accused me of being racists were ignoramuses that couldn’t comprehend properly my point. Looks like we’ve found another…
Yeah - it's everyone elses fault...
Try looking in a mirror
by Canuck Exile on Jan 27, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Get one racist comment from me
Go ahead I’m waiting… Find the quote. Until then run along little guy.
Okay so first you admit it happened and blame others and now you deny it?
Split personality or just a little liberal with the truth?
by Canuck Exile on Jan 27, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
When did I admit to making a racist comment?
What I said is that people with feeble minds (you included obviously) didn’t understand my comment and misconstrued it as racist. Still waiting for the quote….
Do not take this as a friend trying to help out or defend MAS11, because I really do not know him, but….
Please can we stop with dragging up his past criticisms of Bargnani and stop calling him a racist. I am sure that there are other readers out there that are tired of reading about it.
While I do not always agree with what MAS11 (or anybody else) has written on the blog, I have enjoyed most of his posts that were not part of personal arguments. He knows basketball, and knows statistics. So do most of the posters that seem to fight with him.
Can’t we disagree with each other without hating and insulting one another?
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, I didn't spawn whole threads on the question of drafting Euro players or not...
Am reading through past posts to find the answer to his request and it’s interesting to note that prior to the draft he wanted to trade Bargs; make it a requirement of any new GB; wanted a new GM; wanted all Euro staff to be fired; wanted to draft only US based players as the NCAA was king etc, etc…..
by Canuck Exile on Jan 27, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Although I think MAS is wrong in his stance against Euro draftees. he clearly has an issue only with the competitive structure overseas. There have been so many players drafted out of college that it is much easier (but still difficult) to project how they will perform in the NBA.
Now, I happen to think that between proper scouting, workouts, and the fact that the NCAA is not exactly quality competition either, the impact of that is minimal, so I am open to drafting international players. But I see his point, and it clearly has nothing to do with the race of the players.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Just to be clear dhackett
I do not hold a stance “against Euro draftees”. My point has always been that you need to add an additional layer of scrutiny when drafting international players (not just those from Europe) due to the potential issues with the validity of the data available. I believe you were indicating this, but wanted to be uber clear considering you opened with the following statement: “Although I think MAS is wrong in his stance against Euro draftees.”
I am also open to drafting international players. As long as one considers this issue with the abovementioned data and applies the appropriate due diligence.
Hey look, I don’t see eye to eye with MAS on many issues, but I’ve never got the sense that he’s racist.
Let’s leave that kind of accusation to other blogs.
I don't get on with MAS much either, but
I’m not 100% sure he is racist. He kinda takes the racist side of most debates, and passionately backs up his argument independently. I think if even if he was racist, he wouldn’t think he was. Nor do I think he would want to be.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 27, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
And he defnitely didn't want t draft big Val
by Canuck Exile on Jan 27, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Yup, wasn’t sold on Jonas and questioned the data available from Europe due to the quality of competition. WTF does that have to do with being racist?!?!
One more point. YOU CANNOT BE RACIST AGAINST EUROPE AS EUROPE IS NOT A RACIST.
Thank you and enjoy your blogging.
I really do not care what he wanted. I am more interested in what he thinks now. I do not want to talk/read about what the Raptors should have done. I want to talk/read about what they should do….
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Canuck Exile
I hope you weren’t referring to me calling MAS an anti-eurite the other day. It was completely in jest. Mas’ anti-euretic ways have been well documented and taken with a grain of salt.
Once again, I am kidding. I don’t think MAS hates Europeans.
Actually he is not my boy, it is my team and I support them whether good or bad - you know a proper fan..well may be you don't...
As for DD I am on the fence, merely noting that MAS was rather bullish before turning his hate on him only a few months later – rather fickle
by Canuck Exile on Jan 27, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Again, if you want to “support them” blindly and cheer and root, I invite you to go join the comments section in Doug Smith’s blog. If you want to have an adult conversation please, by all means, stick around. If you want to call me racist based on my comments, then you need to go back to grade two and practice your reading comprehension. So far you have added nothing to any conversation. You haven’t debated my points on merit but have reduced your discourse to calling me a racist with no evidence and accused me of being negative. You sir are a troll. By the comments above from other posters, I don’t think I am alone in this estimation. This will be my last response to you as this conversation is not getting us anywhere. MAS out.
The last thing I was talking about when last season ended was about how sure I was DeMar was going to make the All Star team possibly this year, or next year at the latest...
After watching this season to this point I am personally inclined to now think he is a future backup for the rest of his career…
This isn’t based on anything Bargnani is or isn’t doing…
It’s entirely based on DeRozan shitting the bed so far this season…
No rational person can possibly say they feel as optimistic about DeMar right now as they did at the end of last season…
Not MAS, not me, not ANY sane person…
"the Truth"
Bosh made his name playing on our weak team. As much as I loved the team, he benefited from being force fed a go to role..
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
I am not saying that Bosh is not good, just overrated.
I would still give Bosh the slight nod over Bargnani. I think Bosh is more durable and fit to see 35 minutes than Bargs will ever be. However, if Bargs manages to keep up his per minute effectiveness that he has shown this year. He will be able to give us more production in 25-30 minutes than Bosh could.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
I would still give Bosh the slight nod over Bargnani.
Slight nod? 12 games > Bosh’s career to date?!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Bosh could rebound and played passable defence, but his offensive numbers and rebounding were inflated by being on a terrible team (unfortunately the team I like/liked).
Don’t forget that I put IF in the second part of my statement.
Take it with a grain of salt…While I have been wrongfully accused over the years of being a Bargs hater, I will admit to being a Bosh hater. I just think he is so overrated. I do not think that the numbers can reveal the whole picture when it comes to Bosh’s time in Toronto.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
"but his offensive numbers and rebounding were inflated by being on a terrible team"
So how do you explain his 21.7 PPG on 55% shooting this year for one of the best teams in the league?!!?
2nd fiddle to an unselfish player that commands a lot of attention is a good spot to be in…Put James Worthy with someone other than Magic Johnson and his numbers would have suffered…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
Come on bro, you can’t have it both ways. You accused him of being a big numbers on a bad team guy. Well now he’s a good numbers on a very good team guy. If you’re on a good team, there are going to be other good players…
I think I can have it both ways. He was allowed to develop into a “star” or “marquee name” by being in the right place at the right time.
I think Chris Bosh is a very good player. At the same price, I would trade Bargnani for him.
I think Chris Bosh is definitely a top 30 guy in this league. However, I think most of the guys outside of the top 5-10 players in the league are overpaid and do not have quite the impact on games that some people think. I am not using your name here because I do not know what you think, so do not be insulted.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
What are you smoking? Bosh’s learning curve was half that of Bargnani’s and last time I checked Bargnani is not the teams point guard so guess what? They are feeding him the ball too. That statement is just asinine as you could argue that PGs like Ford and James ignored Bosh at times to look for their own shot and I felt they should have fed him the ball more. You and I will just have to agree to disagree because I think Bosh is actually underrated compared to guys like Gasol who were surrounded by more talent and did less until going to LA.
I feel that most of the big names in the league are overrated. I am not arguing that Bargnani is better than Bosh.
I am simply stating that I think Bosh is overrated. I always stated that I know he is probably not as overrated as I think because I can admit to just not ever liking him.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
All-stars
Bosh will be in because Miami is in 2nd place, and his stats are decent (22 PPG / 8 RPG).
Josh Smith — 16 and 9 for a top team, ya – he should be there.
Amare — I think that you can only pick one of him or Carmelo, given that the Knicks are still a crappy team. 18 and 8 are borderline all-star numbers, especially given his much better stats in previous seasons and the lack of team success.
Garnett — Celtics are struggling this year, and he’s putting up 13.5 PPG and 7 boards… Rondo could be their only representative, with Pierce and Allen hurt. Sure, he’s been a top players for 15 years, but the Celtics are sucking.
Boozer — 15 and 8, but for a 1st place team… Rose plus either him/Noah/Deng should be there.
I also think that Hibbert (Pacers) will get some consideration, and even Iguodola might get in because of the Sixers success.
Decent stats?
They are better than Bargnani’s who you began preaching to us about at the beginning.
As I noted yesterday, Bargnani is now essentially tied for 5th in NBA scoring with Carmelo… one more game where Melo tries to be a passer to keep Amare happy (and stays at say 20 points or under), and Bargs will be alone in 5th — albeit without enough games played to truly qualify for the list. Keep this in mind when the All-Star game rolls around and people are raving about Carmelo and his highly inefficient 23 PPG!
Bosh has been awesome this year and he deserves to be an All-Star because of his numbers and the fact he is the 2nd best player on a great team.
Bosh is 22/8, Andrea 24/6.5
Bosh is scoring more efficiently and has been making big plays all year.
While Bargnani has out played Boozer, Amare, Carmelo (in my opinoin Carmelo has been a big flop this, 38% shooting is horrible).
However, Smith and Lebron have outplayed Bargnani at the Forward positions.
settle down beavis
I’m not preaching that Bargnani is a definite All-Star… just that he’s far higher in the scoring ranks than I think anyone expected (partially due to bad years from a few scorers).
As far as the All-Star choices, we all know that career achievements and team achievements do matter (i.e. putting up 25 points on a last-place team doesn’t get you an All-Star selection).
Bosh’s stats are great considering his situation in Miami as 3rd fiddle, but 22 and 8 are not “awesome” (now, Lebron’s stats this year – those are awesome).
I fully expect Bosh and Josh Smith to be all-stars… Amare/Garnett/Boozer are all borderline in my view.
Note the word 'contention'
No, I don’t think he gets in without a big fan vote, but with a great run, coaches would have to look at him too, along with those guys mentioned.
A. I had to go to dictionary.com to look up “pyrrhic”.
B. I couldn’t agree more. Bargnani has played far too many minutes this season. When you start seeing nagging injuries like a strained calf combined with the splits in his first half vs. second half numbers, it’s a sign of overuse.
I understand Casey is playing to win. But ultimately, you want to do that in the context of the bigger picture. And I would say a healthy, effective Bargs playing less and extra minutes for the young guys would be a win, win. The losses are part of the process.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
The real frustrating part is that for half the minutes he is on the floor, he gets ignored. I would be really happy with him playing only 32 minutes a night, but getting about a 40% usage rate. Even with his improved D, his real value lies in how he helps this team’s offense (drastically) and he really should be utilized as much as possible. Give him the same number of shots in 10 less minutes and you’ll see better shooting percentages, more trouble for opposing teams, and a less tired Bargs at the end of games.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Totally agree Hackett…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
not to mention
to take advantage of his passing skills. so I would advise to have him involved
Agreed. Less minutes and one of the highest usage rates in the league would suffice. The more I watch Bargs this season, the more I think that’s the way to go in Casey’s system. Then you scale back the usage as more talented guys come on board.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
I've hear enough from this "tennis pro"
i’ll trust a trained and respected NBA trainer over a meathead blogger anyday
who is the tennis pro?
and you can trust anybody you want.
but meathead does describe me.
By the way...
so you trust blindly this pro trainer.
OK…damn it!
Bargs is down again.
So what does that mean to you?
Does it mean he came back to early?
That he wasn’t prepared for this game?
What exactly does this mean to you?
2 games and he is back down.
You trustworthy soul…get along.
To ME…somebody made a bad decision somewhere……and THAT is THE trainer’s job.
I am pissed at not only your insult but your whole attitude.
Who runs this team...
Trainers or coaches…They play Bargs too much. I know he has been the best player, but he has broken down over the last year when playing over 35 minutes. This is a tougher schedule than ever, plus this team is not going to win anyway. Play him 30 minutes a night max.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
+1
The voice of reason.
Bargs can’t handle 35-40 minutes per night over a normal schedule. Subjecting him to that workload in this ridiculously compact season is proving to be a recipe for nagging injuries. I’m at a loss to explain why Colangelo and/or Casey haven’t clued into this already.
Enjoy the 25-30 minutes per night of efficient scoring and use the remaining minutes to develop the younger guys and see what you’ve got on this roster.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnani should be play 36minutes per game. Where does 25-30 come from? haha.
Agreed they are over playing him but thats because they are playing him at 40+ minutes on back to back nights. That is ridiculous, he needs to be at 36mpg.
In almost 40% of the games he’s played this season, Bargs has topped the 40 minute mark. Check it out.
These past two games were ridiculous. The guy is coming off an injury and you run him out there for 42 and 40 minutes back-to-back. WTF?!
Of course he’s now out again and awaiting the results of an MRI.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe running players into the ground...
Is part of the rebuilding (tanking) strategy?
The only truly good thing to come out of last nights game is that we may have finally seen a glimpse at the potential of Kleiza. If he plays like that every night, I do not mind the rest of his contract. He would be a pretty good swing big off the bench for us going forward and he even though he didn’t make them all, he showed no fear taking some big shots toward the end of the game.
Derozan on the other hand is a bit concerning. Forget that he had a decent game statistically and looked like he played well overall. My concern is the total lack of trust his teammates(coaches?) have in him at clutch time. The end of regulation and 2 overtimes are where your so called best players are suppose to step up but once again he was no where to be found. I hope it was just a case of the Raptors attacking perceived weaknesses of Utah’s D rather than a growing trend.
Glimpse?
Kleiza’s nice but his limitations are well known, the guy cannot do anything whatsoever with his left hand, or dribble more than 3 times with either hand. He’s great, but my opinion is last night was his full arsenal. I like him though, he’s solid, can do the point forward thing a little and seems to be buying into the d.
How can a player “do the point forward thing” when he can’t dribble more than three times with either hand? It seems to me that would render him rather ineffective as a point forward. o_0
Good point
More like dribble more than three times * in traffic* – different than bringing the ball up the open floor and being able to hit a cutter or deliver post entry pass, but point, I don’t like how he looks handling in traffic but high bball iq.
Not suggesting we trade Jose away and give him the job of running our offense. Just saying he looked last night much like I think BC was hoping he would look every night. Whether he can be consistent and productive is yet to be seen but I liked the fact he at least looked competent last night.
Zone D
Only saw the first half but the zone was a major factor in the late-1st and 2nd-Q comeback. They played it well, used it well and used it on the right team. This team has been using it a lot after sloppy starts using man D. It’s a big factor in the overall improved D.
I've only been following the Raptors since I moved to Canada in 2004,
but since then, albeit that this is a short sample study, it has always felt as if a west coast road trip would always by punctuated by crushing and embaressing defeats and the feeling that our guys are just phoning it in until they got back east, as if they had already accounted for a loss on the plane ride out there. These last two games have been some of the most hard fought western road games I have ever seen them play and it really is something to be proud of and inspired by, going forwards.
I think this new toughness, and indeed “heart” is down to coach Casey. He has shaken the soft tag completely from this team to the point that I believe in the oppositions locker room teams are saying, “man, we got a good chance of winning tonight, but it ain’t gonna be easy… gotta be ready to take some lumps in the paint.”
Formerly known as timboslice85
by Rebrand_the_Raps on Jan 26, 2012 10:34 AM EST reply actions
Good! Now the Raptors can get their quest for the #1 pick back on track after a 2 game interruption! ;)
Just kidding, of course. Hopefully Bargnani can get back to 100 percent soon enough.
This compressed season is so tough on the players’ bodies. Amir and Bargs have certainly suffered as a result and no doubt others have been carrying inuries, too.
by DW19 on Jan 26, 2012 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
With Bargs the Raps are 6-7.
Without they are 0-6.
Get that tank back on track!
by dhackett1565 on Jan 26, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
It's tough
Because on the one hand, with Andrea playing, the games are infinitely more watchable. Without him, some games have been downright stomach churning. On the other hand, he helps us win games which is counter productive as we need a high draft pick. What is a Raptors fan to do?
DeRozan needs to sit behind Barbosa until he becomes more aggressive. I do not like Barbosa much, but when he is tuned in, he certainly makes a bigger impact than DeMar.
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
My only disappointment will be not seeing how AB play in the Heat game next Sunday in person. Got tix to the game in Miami, then heading back just in time for a SB party in Toronto.. this is going to be tight!!
that is really a ashame
I was looking forward to that game myself
aaargh
couldn’t watch the last two games but was delighted to see Andrea back in good shape and the team finally winning and playing better.
and now… sigh…back to unwatchable basketball.
I thought this was an interesting take on last nights game.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/01/26/finding-the-bright-side-of-the-andrea-bargnani-injury/
Well
I just can’t believe how improved Bargnani is this year. I know the sample size is small, but it doesn’t matter because how he has already shown that he is a changed man. Stats don’t show the way a player carries himself on the court; but it is clear as day that he is not only more comfortable out there, he is actually oozing confidence. That is contagous to his team mates and makes them all feel like they could win any game. Andrea is showing that he can score on anyone, so if everyone D’s up…
As for on the court, I never thought Andrea ‘veggie lasagna’ would be described quick footed on D. His scoring is among the tops in the league, he is getting calls, he hedges on defence and is scoring efficiently. Once a player ‘gets it’ at this level, they don’t seem to ‘unget it’. Sure, I’m drinking the kool aid. But if the only interrnal development this team had all year is Andrea stepping up his game consistently to this level, that is still a massive development.
Big Jonas (that player he should be) and (this) Bargnani will be an awesome front line. If Bargnani misses time, we lose more games and we get a better draft pick, we also play other players and figure out what we have. There are questions about who is part of the future and who might be good trade bait to bring in new assets. If we know what we now have in Bargnani, we can now start answering those questions.
Again, I just can’t believe the turn around of Bargnani this year. I may have been a Bargnani apologist, but I must admit I didn’t expect to ever see him play the way he has played this season. My mom got me a Raps jersey last year for Christmas, it was a Bargnani jersey. I didn’t feel cool wearing it. Now, I actually look forward to seeing Bargnani play his next game, and migth pull the jersey out. Bizarre
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 26, 2012 6:35 PM EST reply actions
Bad News
Eric Smith: Bargnani says he’s going to get an MRI & he’ll be “out for a while” … Again saying the calf is “much worse” #Raptors #SmithAndJones #SN590 Twitter
later
The Raptors organization only has themselves to blame. They’ve run the guy into the ground in just 12 games. Nice.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Who knows maybe a positive comes out of this. They learn what they have in Bargs…a guy that CAN BE great for a maximum of 30 minutes a night. They suck because they do not have him for much of the season, and thus secure a great pick.
I would be pretty happy with Bargs playing 30 minutes a night and Valanciunas playing 30 minutes a night. Amir backs them both up for a total of 25 minutes. James Johnson/Kleiza eat up a few of the remaining minutes. Aaron Gray or a similar bruising center get a couple of minutes a night.
I think Ed has potential, but I would trade him…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 26, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Ed Davis is looking like the odd man out. Although, if the Raptors’ organization successfully turns Bargnani into Danny Manning (which they appear on their way to doing), Davis might be the better play.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 26, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Minutes
For those talking about 30minutes that just seems a little ridiculous. Realistically he needs to be playing about 36minutes per game. Both calf injuries occured in situations that to be honestly were a little absurd.
The first was on the third game of a back to back to back. He played 45minutes against Minny and then 29 minutes against Wash the two games before Sac. Then against Sacramento he hurt it with about 3minutes left in the third and had played 28 minutes already. If he plays 10minutes more that game that is 38 minutes which would avg his minutes out to 37mpg for a back to back to back. Is that not a little crazy? Especially considering the first game was 45min.
The next calf injury came when Bargnani played 42min against Phx and had already played 40+min with about 1 minute left in the game. 42min/game for back to backs is ridiculous.
While he is avg 36min a game, both calf injuries came when he was obviously over exerted through much too heavy work loads. Which lies with Casey and the coaching staff.
So lets stop with the he needs to play 30min, what needs to happen is the staff need to be reasonable and limit him to between 32-40min. The higher end of that when they have time off the lower end during heavy schedules.
There is nothing wrong with him playing 30 minutes a night. The issue is more that he tires easier because he plays smaller than his body is which is more of a strain then playing a more traditional game for a 4/5. Wouldn’t you rather get 10-15 good years out of him by playing him a little less than playing him 36 minutes and cut his career significantly down?
Yes I would rather have him play less and stay healthy/energized/engaged.
They could play Bargnani 30 to 40 minutes a night here and there during seasons with a normal amount of rest, especially once there are some better options around him that will command some
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
10-15 good years? That would put Bargnani at 36-41? Unless you are beginning from the start of his career. If you are going from the start of his career than for AB to avg he could play 36mpg over the next 5 years and his mpg would only be at approximately 33mpg for his career. Which would be pretty close to the range you were talking about.
I would prefer him palying 36minutes a game at the lvl he is at right now for the next 7 years, if he were to give us that hopefully we would of built the team into an attractive location for players. At taht point hopefully JV and the rookie drafted this year have had enough time to develop into legitimate NBA players.
So I don’t know if you are referring to a career avg of 30mpg but if that is the case than playing AB 36mpg over the next 7 years (which would be 13 years total) would only amount to 33mpg, which is close to your range. If you expect to get 10-15 more years out of him, yikes.
As for the wear and tear on his body, you good argue that his style of play will allow him to play longer because he doesn’t have to bang with larger players in the post on a game to game basis, especially if he is guarding the 4 position.
So realistically to get 7more years of him playing an avg of 36mpg, would put him into that 10-15 year range at only 33mpg for his career….which is what you want isn’t it?
I think you are correct in assuming he is talking about the beginning of his career.
I would agree that I would rather have him play less overall at a high level then longer overall at a lower level.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 28, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
If Bogut is done for the year, could they use Ed Davis? I would bet yes. Do they have anything interesting that they could/should offer up for a trade involving Special Ed?
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 9:53 AM EST reply actions
Sorry
For those who hate this kind of thing, but I just can not help myself right now.
To those of you hate made up players to target in trade ideas, but I could not help myself…
If the Bucks were willing to trade Bogut because they want to compete this year, or because of how often he has been hurt, would anybody be up for targeting him?
I think I would he is largre, rugged, and hard working.
This is probably not a great example of a deal that would get him because I am just a fan, not a GM, but…
Ed Davis and Jermaine (expiring) O’Neal to the Bucks. Barbosa (expiring) to the Celtics – Bench scorer. Andrew Bogut to the Raptors.
I know that Valancuinas is supposed to be very good, but I would be all for easing him into the rotation behind Bargs/Bogut. If Valanciunas quickly emerges as a must play, we could deal Amir for something decent…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions
I doubt we have the pieces. But Bogut would be a huge help. Heck, just get Val to play backup C and PF, trade Amir for a solid wing player or PG in a couple years if Val has developed into a real quality big – if not, keep Amir. Focus on the draft for our wing and guard issues.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
A healthy Bogut feels like a Casey guy.
And who knows? Maybe Valanciunas doesn’t start right away. Maybe they ease him into life in the NBA.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
a healthy bogus
is any coaches guy.
Ofcourse I’m not sure a healthy Bogut can ever exist again
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 27, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
True…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
a healthy bogus
Ironic and appropriate typo.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
hahah
just noticed that. Nice call D-hack
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 27, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I would be all over it. The problem is we probably do not have the pieces since I would not suggest using this year’s draft pick.
Ed Davis could be intriguing, but I have not watched the Bucks enough to know how much better he is/could be than Larry Sanders an Ilyasova…
Our wings are probably of little interest to the Bucks because they are crowded there. I think it would need to be a 3 team deal. Our tradable and expendable players appear to be Ed Davis, Barbosa, and DeMar DeRozan.
If I had to choose between dealing Ed and DeMar, I would choose Ed for sure. I think Ed could be good, but I prefer DeMar. I would not be anti trading DeMar, but he just seems like a really good kid who is willing to put in work on his game, year round. I am hopeful that he can transform that athleticism into something one of these years….
DeMar might look nice on the Bucks were he and Jennings could get out and run better than he can with Jose…
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 27, 2012 10:58 AM EST reply actions
DeMar might look nice on the Bucks were he and Jennings could get out and run better than he can with Jose…
I think that’s a pretty fair assumption. DeRozan doesn’t appear to fit in with Casey’s system. And in his third season, he should be breaking out NOT regressing.
Prematurely dealing Davis scares me a bit (unless you are getting good value in return). He’s already a productive player in limited minutes and still has a lot of upside. Of the two, he seems like more of the Casey guy. But again, he’ll probably end up behind Valanciunas, Bargnani and Amir next season. That’s not where you want a former lottery pick situated.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that Demar’s been disappointing… But I hesitate to give up on him if the return isn’t good. He never really had a sophomore slump – maybe his is just a year late? After Bargnani this year, it’s tough to make any solid conclusions.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Can’t give up on him because of ‘potential’ but also even if he doesn’t pan out his contract isn’t grippling and can come off the books soon. Unless we are getting pieces to build than it doesn’t make any sense.
We trade one player for potential for another? Unless BC and Casey are giving up on Demar they should hold on to him.
On that note, he has been awful.
I’m of the same opinion when it comes to davis. too much potential and too financially friendly to trade either of them right now.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 28, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
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- Dwyane Wade’s hot pink pants: The kind of thing you can get away with when you drop 41
- Lamar Odom to New York? Dwight Howard on the move? For now, it’s all talk
