Tip In: : "He’s Back" Raptors Snap Losing Streak on the Back of Bargnani’s 36 Point Performance
by Scott Campsall on Jan 25, 2012 9:10 AM EST
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The Toronto Raptors finally ended their nasty 6 game losing streak after Andrea Bargnani's impressive return to the lineup Tuesday against the Suns. The HQ's Scott Campsall has all the details, including some interesting lineup choices for Coach Dwayne Casey.
Last night the Toronto Raptors narrowly defeated the Phoenix suns 99-96, mercifully putting an end to their 8-game losing streak this season. The win also marks the Raptors' first victory over Phoenix since February of 2004.
The win was due in large part to the outstanding performance of Andrea Bargnani who started slowly, but exploded in the third quarter to score 18 of his 36 points on the night. Bargnani's effort gave a huge lift to the Raptors' offense who had struggled mightily at that end of the floor in Bargnani's 6 game absence.
Like Bargnani, the Raptors got off to a poor start in the first quarter. The Raptors managed just 17 first quarter points and surrendered 27 to the Suns. Things were not looking good for the Dinos after the first, but the second unit came in and was the driving force behind the Raptors' comeback in the second.
Leandro Barbosa's shooting in the second was pivotal in getting the Dinos back into the game. Barbosa made all 3 of his three-point attempts in the quarter and finished with 19 points on 7 of 14 shooting from the floor. This was one of Barbosa's more efficient outings of the season, proving that when Barbosa is locked in he is a difference maker for this offensively challenged Raptors squad.
The Raptors experimented with a little zone in that second quarter which helped settle the defense and cause a few turnovers that really stabilized the Raps on that end of the floor. Following a 7-2 run, the Raptors went into halftime trailing by just 4.
This effort carried over into the third quarter when Andrea Bargnani went off. Il Mago poured in 18 points including 4 of 5 from beyond the arc. He and Calderon ran the pick and roll masterfully leading to a number of wide open looks for the Italian center. After witnessing a quarter like that it is difficult to contend that the Raptors missed his offensive prowess.
In the fourth, the Raptors allowed the Suns to crawl back into the game. Following a stretch of five straight misses by the Raps, the Suns shredded the Raptors defense and brought the game within 4 points.
It was at this point that the Raptors again turned to their leading scorer to get them a bucket to seal the deal, and he came through-- with ice in his veins, Bargnani nailed a pull-up jumper to extend the lead to 7 with under a minute to go. Or, at least, it should have sealed the game; the Raptors gave up a couple easy layups to Nash, and then a wide open dunk by Jared Dudley after Rasual Butler threw the ball away on an errant inbound pass.
That, however, was as close as the Suns would get in this one. Andrea Bargnani would go on to hit the 2 free throws that properly iced the game and sink the Suns for good.
It would be a stretch to say that the Raptors played well defensively-they allowed the Suns to shoot 48%--but the Dinos did get some big stops when they needed them, and overcame a late Suns ralley to get the victory.
Also of note was the play of forward James Johnson. Johnson has had a rocky start to the season, but seems to be coming along as of late. Johnson had 23 points Friday against Portland and produced 18 last night against the Suns; Johnson has shown more confidence in his jump shot and is mixing up his offense a lot better by slashing to the bucket and creating shorter shots for himself rather than settling for long jumpers-a habit that is the cause of much frustration in Raptorland. Johnson added 10 rebounds and some solid defense that the Raptors needed in order to get passed the Suns.
I would be remiss to talk about this game and not mention the variety of lineups that Casey utilized over the course of this contest.
For starters, quite literally, Casey opted to replace Amir Johnson with Aaron Gray, a move that was no doubt motivated by Amir's perceived lackadaisical play against the Clippers. Gray gave the Raptors some solid minutes, yet Johnson proved to be more valuable by making a number of great hustle plays in the second half, which included one outstanding rebound in traffic that resulted in a loose ball foul and free throws for Johnson.
We also saw Casey sit Demar Derozan for an extended period of time. Demar played just 23 minutes in rather unimpressive fashion. Ed Davis was another player who received very limited playing time; Davis played only 3 minutes after picking up 3 quick fouls in the first half and was banished to the bench for the remained of the game.
With these players on the bench Coach Casey experimented with different, smaller lineups. In crunch time the Raptors sent out a lineup that featured Calderon, Barbosa, and James Johnson with Kleiza at the four and Bargnani at the 5. This lineup would prove to be extremely effective as it allowed the Raptors to stretch the floor with Klieza and Barbosa, leaving a wide open lane for Bargnani and Calderon to run the screen and roll. Defensively, it gave the Raptors a quicker lineup that matched up well with the smaller Suns lineup that Alvin Gentry likes to employ.
The Raptors will now look to carry over the success that they had with those lineups into Utah tomorrow as they take on the well rested Jazz who haven't played since Saturday.
The Jazz are coming off of a win against the T'Wolves in which the Jazz's frontcourt combination of Paul Milsap and Al Jefferson lit up the Wolves for a combined 44 points and 21 rebounds.
If the Raptors have any shot at continuing there winning streak here is what they will have to do In Utah:
1) Get off to a hot start: The Raps first quarter struggles have been well documented; they have lost 5 straight first quarters, and were lucky to get the win last night despite another sluggish start. The Raptors need to jump on the Jazz early, who should be a little slow to start given they haven't played in 4 days. If the Raptors hope to have any shot at winning this game they are going to need their starters to step up; their bench cannot keep digging them out of these deep holes early.
2) Protect the Paint: The Jazz have a great deep frontcourt of Milsap, Jefferson, Kanter and Favors that they take full advantage of on the offensive end of the floor. Utah is second in the league in points per game in the paint and thus stopping their interior attack will be central to slowing the Jazz offense. This is where Casey could potentially employ the zone defense successfully. The Jazz are not a great jump shooting team; they are just 27th in the league in three-point shooting and their offense is built around pounding the ball in the paint.
Get Bargnani the Ball: The Raptors flat out struggled offensively without their offensive anchor in the 6 games he missed previous to last night. Bargnani is the key to getting their offense going; they are going to need him early and they are going to need him often against the Jazz. Bargnani should have a matchup advantage against either Milsap or Jefferson, both of which are too large and likely too slow to stay with the agile Bargnani. At the very least, his ability to stretch the floor will bring the bigs away from the basket leaving the lane wide open for slashers like DeRozan and Johnson to cut to the bucket. If the Raps run their offense through Bargnani they should have some success early against the less agile Utah Jazz
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Casey’s Impact
In the first half Andrea Bargnani was 2 for 8 and was a sieve on defence. His rotations were non-existent, his hedges were poor and his challenges were weak. He was the "old Bargnani". In the post-half time interview with Jack Armstrong and Casey, you could tell Casey just came from lambasting his team. He was HOT! He almost chastised Jack for even bringing up offense. His focus was on what the team needed to do defensively to be successful.
It obviously rubbed off on Bargnani. His defence was much improved in the 3rd quarter. He was engaged and moving with purpose in his assignments. On one occasion he rotated quickly from the weak side to block the Polish Hammer’s shot in the lane (something I don’t think I’ve ever seen him do before). This engagement on the defensive side translated to focus on offense as well as Bargnani was on fire in the third quarter.
In last nights’ chat, when commenting on Bargnani’s slippage in the first, I was told by a commenter to "give it a rest" and to ignore Bargnani’s poor defensive effort because he was coming off an injury (um if he’s still injured he shouldn’t be playing, if he’s healthy he has to play hard). I wouldn’t have been surprised if it was Leo or Triano or even Doug Smith making a comment like that… Well, I’m glad Casey wasn’t of the same mindset and demanded Bargnani and the team play better. The result was something we haven’t seen in Toronto in years. Accountability and the resistance to let Bargnani regress to the "old Bargnani". Credit is due to Bargnani for picking up his play and great work by Casey to maintain the standards of expectations.
Good point
That certainly was nice to see, and something we haven’t seen in Toronto since Bargnani got there. Sam Mitchell challenged Bargnani, only he never responded. Now he is getting it done
by Scott Campsall on Jan 25, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Confidence
Nice to see that Bargnani has achieved a level of maturity/confidence where he is willing to hear the truth and act on it (at least in this one case). As with his improved efficiency, I hope that this is as change that is going to stick.
by DW19 on Jan 25, 2012 11:13 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
You have to wonder if pride and a better understanding of the English language helped in that regard. Barney was the laughingstock of the league and the butt of many a joke at his expense. Being the worst player statistically in the league has to be an embarrassment and maybe that helped put him in a mind set where he was finally willing to listen. I know people believe Triano was soft on Barney but I can’t believe he never mentioned the things to help him get better. I am guessing though that he wasn’t ready to hear that message.
yep agreed
not only with Bargnani seemingly (assuming here) getting a talking to and or taking Casey inevitable team tongue lashing to heart but cutting back Derozan’s minutes and not bringing Ed back in. Those two were terrible, again, last night.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Accountability!!!
Yes, I would like to once again make you accountable. There are a lot of people on this site that should be eating a bit of crow when it comes to AB. MAS, you are among the leading offenders of seeing zero positives to Andrea’s game, nor any chance of seeing him improve. All summer long it was a war between the ‘haters’ and the ‘homers’. All summer you thought we needed to get rid of Bargs for anything, including nothing. Yesterday, Bargs was clearly the hero of the game, but you still end up writing a critical post about Bargs, praising Casey for calling him out. Well if Casey deserves so much credit, why didn’t what he said work on DeRozan – or anyone else for that matter? Bargnani had a tough first half after missing several games with an injury, but he won the game in the second half, but here goes MAS with his typical rant.
Don’t get me wrong, over the summer, the numbers backed up your arguement. Most people that were ‘defending’ Bargs weren’t as much loving Bargs as they were just beggin you to give it a rest. So far this season, Bargnani has improved in almost every way that you were wanting him to. In his second year as the team’s first option, his first year in his natural position, he has (in your words) picked up his play.
Without getting into a Bargnani debate, as I actually agreed with many points you were making, it is time for you to step up and be accountable. Admit that you have never liked Bargnani and still hold a grudge against him. Admit that you were wrong. QUalify it with a so far this year Bargnani is proving me wrong if you like. But if you are going to preach accountability – be accountable and admit you were wrong and that if we traded away Bargnani for nothing, it would have been a mistake. Man up dude.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
“Admit that you were wrong”
vs
“Don’t get me wrong, over the summer, the numbers backed up your arguement”
ummmm…….
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
Typical Archibald… Here’s the thing. I take back NOTHING that I said in the past. Every criticism I have ever made against Bargnani was based on his play and the statistics. Every piece of statistical evidence pointed to Bargnani being one of the worst NBA players in history. Even you state: "Don’t get me wrong, over the summer, the numbers backed up your argument."
So far he has played well this season. Kudos to him for turning it around. However, this in no way suggests that he wasn’t a terrible basketball player as few as 6 months ago. So why exactly would I or anyone else who criticised Bargnani "eat crow"? I was NEVER wrong. He was terrible. You and others WERE wrong for 5 years.
At the opposite of you I amde a mistake once
…. when I thought I was wrong……
I’m not really taking sides here, as I had almost jumped the Bargs ship this past summer as well.
But I’m pretty sure the “crow eating” implication has to do with the prevailing attitude here that, based on that very solid evidence of his past performance being sub-par, he would never be a positive contributor. Now, the people who thought he was a huge asset to the team these past few years were wrong – he was inefficient offensively and non-existent defensively. But the people who said he would never be useful were also wrong – he’s proven he can be not only a contributor, but at this time the biggest positive contributor we have.
Still hoping for further proof that he can do so for an entire season, and for the rest of his career.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 25, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
A fair point, but to think that someone should "eat crow" for making the right determination based on the available data is strange. Anyone who predicted this turnaround by Bargnani was going against all the objective evidence and had little to base their predictions on. There is no precedent for a player that bad to all of a sudden become good after 5 years in the league. So, you’ll excuse me if I don’t apologise for my stance on this as it was the right determination at the time based on all the info available. Further, the season ain’t over yet…
I’m not looking for an apology. I’m just saying that although there was no way to reasonably predict this, there were those that thought it would happen, and thus far they are right and the more reasonable of us are wrong. I certainly never thought this would happen. In fact I recall a conversation we had where I said I hoped it would at some point, but honestly expected it wouldn’t.
A fair point, but to think that someone should “eat crow” for making the right determination based on the available data is strange.
Ah, but here’s the thing. We made the wrong determination based on the available evidence. The reasonable one? Yes. The logical one? Yes. But entirely wrong.
But yes, the season ain’t over yet. Here’s hoping we stay wrong!
by dhackett1565 on Jan 25, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
You may not be looking for an apology, but Archibald above is. Right vs. wrong is semantics at this point as again, based on all the evidence it was the right call to make and for the purpose of this discussion (as from Archibald’s comments, it’s silly to ask someone to apologise for making the "right" call based on the evidence). And yes, time will truly tell.
Sure it was wrong based on his first 12 games of the season, but to suggest it was wrong to make that determination at that time is insane.
Hey, no determination is right or wrong until proven so. It can be reasonable and logical but it’s not right until the proof occurs. So at this point in time, it was the wrong determination. By the end of the season we might be right again. Here’s hoping we’re not!
by dhackett1565 on Jan 25, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Look, my point was it was the right conclusion at the time. Hind sight is 20/20, but I’m not apologizing for making the right call at the time based on the information available.
Sure – if you only consider the evidence you want. You looked at the numbers, his effort, etc, and drew the conclusion that he would never be a positive contributor. Others looked at his skill set and said there was something there that could be special. You each chose to look at and weigh the available evidence differently, and it turns out (pending further good play of course) that the non-empirical evidence of observing his potential was more accurate than the traditional statistical projection of his at-the-time abysmal play into the future.
You don’t need to apologize, no one (reasonable) is asking that. I’m just saying – I’ve found another reason to question my own dependence on stats and surety in my predictions. Haven’t you?
by dhackett1565 on Jan 26, 2012 8:56 AM EST up reply actions
No, not at all. As I stated above, there is no precedent for this kind of turn around and it just doesn’t happen where a player goes from abysmal to good overnight, in season 6. So, if Bargnani keeps this play up should we abandon statistical evidence, the scientific method, knowledge and essentially sanity? No, I think not.
And the argument that others looked at his "skill set" etc. and this can be compared to the mountaine of evidence is flawed as his "skill set" was beingin inefficient on offense and…. that’s about it. Regarding the "non-empirical evidence of observing" being more accurate, that’s flawed as well because there was NO evidence. It was simply HOPING he became a good player overnight. So if at the end of the day my answer to you is, no. I will not abandon statistics for HOPE the same way I don’t think we should abandon teaching evolution in school…
Well, you can say you didn’t see any non-empirical evidence, but many of us did. I saw enough to retain some hope that he might put it together. He always seemed able to do whatever he wanted on the court – he just didn’t – lack of heart, effort, motivation, whatever was his big problem. And it seemed like he would never “get it” – I agree – but there were certainly signs that he could turn it around.
And the argument that others looked at his “skill set” etc. and this can be compared to the mountaine of evidence is flawed as his “skill set” was beingin inefficient on offense and…. that’s about it.
That’s obtuse. Does his current season not prove that statement incorrect? Could it not be that he indeed had the same skill set last year and is simply applying himself the way his fans always hoped he would? The big difference I see this year has nothing to do with his talents, so much as his effort. The skill set was there to see for anyone who cared to look. The inefficiency was a symptom of his attitude rather than his skill set.
And my point is not to abandon using reason – but to temper our confidence in our predictions. You say it was the right conclusion at the time – and I say that based on the concept of projecting past statistics into the future you are correct. But perhaps that is not the only concept that could be applied in a situation like this – and applying the more abstract and frowned-upon concepts of “potential” and “getting it” seems to have been more accurate in this case.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 26, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
"The skill set was there to see for anyone who cared to look. The inefficiency was a symptom of his attitude rather than his skill set."
I’m not being obtuse, you are just being overly generous with your definition of what it means to poses a skill-set. To be qualified as "having a skill set" you have to be able to do the things that amount to that skill set well. I understand the point you’re trying to make, that for example, Bargnani had an offensive skill set. However, he did not demonstrate he had the ability to be efficient and therefore did not demonstrate this skill set. For example, I can go out and take a million long range jump shots, this does not necessarily mean I have a "long range jump shot skill set". If I hit them efficiently and was productive offensively, only then could I be qualified as having this skill set. You and others HOPED he DEVELOPED this skill set. However, the evidence pointed that his window of opportunity had closed based on his years in the league.
Finally, when you figure out a way to quantify "concepts of "potential" and "getting it" you let me know. Until then, we would be left with simply the subjective which leads to flawed assessments as well as debate.
You and others HOPED he DEVELOPED this skill set. However, the evidence pointed that his window of opportunity had closed based on his years in the league.
Bargnani had clearly demonstrated several offensive skill sets. He was decent from 3, could drive effectively against players his size, could post up on occasion. It was his use of his talents that was lacking. If you couldn’t see that he had all the skills he is displaying now last year and in years past, then that is a failure of your ability to perceive that skill-set. Just because you didn’t see it coming, doesn’t mean it came out of nowhere and was entirely unpredictable – and don’t insult those who did see it as a possibility by suggesting it was only hope, and that since your opinion was that his window had closed, it must be pure fluke that it clearly hadn’t.
Finally, when you figure out a way to quantify "concepts of “potential” and “getting it” you let me know. Until then, we would be left with simply the subjective which leads to flawed assessments as well as debate.
Yeah, that would be great. Until then, we can’t quantify it – and as such, we cannot measure it, and thereby cannot use the methods we usually do to predict its effect. The stats don’t capture it, and as such, the stats can’t tell the whole story. And some people observed a reason to hope, and were right.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 26, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
This is exactly my point! It was pure fluke because it has essentially never happened before and all the indicators were that it wasn’t going to happen! It was ABSOLUTELY hope!
There are two conclusions to that instance. Either it was a pure fluke and the people who saw this coming were just deluding themselves, and just happened to be right by chance (your position) or the statistics and other methods you (and I) used to predict that he would never do so are not a complete method of looking at the situation, and as such the “indicators” were insufficient to make such claims.
Considering there were many people suggesting such a thing was possible, it is hardly the mad ravings of a single fanboy here. As such, my conclusion is that we need better indicators. If you do an experiment that disproves your hypothesis, you don’t throw away the results because they don’t fit with your preconceptions, you examine your hypothesis to see what assumption you made that was wrong.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 27, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
Hey MAS
I’m not wanting to get into a war of words with you again. My probelm with you has always been that you had a very emotional anti BArgnani slant to everything you wrote, all summer long. You constantly argued that it wasn’t because you were a hater, it was because the numbers showed that Bargnani was terrible.
My arguement with you was never that I thought Bar4gnani was great. My argument was always that we had him on the team, we wouldn’t get much for him in a trade anyway, so why endlessly hate on him? He brought things to the table, evewn last year, that could be helpful – and we didn’t have anyone else that could play C anyways. Actually, I always thought Bargs was best suited to a 6th man role, maybe I still do unless he keeps this up.
The fact that you still insist on hating him, eventhough he is clearly playing better defence, carries the team offensively, is the best player on the team, etc actually proves me right. You are and always have been a hater.
Every criticism I have ever made against Bargnani was based on his play and the statistics. Every piece of statistical evidence pointed to Bargnani being one of the worst NBA players in history. Even you state: “Don’t get me wrong, over the summer, the numbers backed up your argument.”
Well, this year, the numbers don’t prove your point that Bargnani sucks. Yet, still you hate. D-Stance has admitted several times that his perceptions from last year have been proven incorrect this year.
You have never actually understood that argument that I have with you MAS. You were always yelling about how bad Bargnani sucked. People weren’t denying that, they were just telling you to take a chill pill. You would always then yell back again that Bargnani sucked. So people stopped having the discussion with you, and called you a hater. This made you even more angry, and you claimed that your opinions were only based on fact. Well, the facts have changed, and still you keep on with the hating. To me, that kind of proves that you were always just hating.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
mmmm
Sorry for the mixed up text
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
" My probelm with you has always been that you had a very emotional anti BArgnani slant to everything you wrote…"
This is exactly my point. My reaction to Bargnani was not emotional, it was based on all the objective evidence available to us. Those who continuously supported Bargnani were nothing BUT emotional as NONE of the data supported their position.
It perplexes me to no end when one suggests that I or others "hate" on Bargnani, when all we were doing is pointing out facts. Pointing to his abhorant play, backed up by every statistical measure. That’s not hate, that’s reality.
Cool
Then, you are probably turning into a huge Bargnani fan this year, as that is what the facts bare out.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Fan isn't the right word...
But certainly happy with the absolute and complete reversal and hope for the sake of the team he keeps it up.
The argument wasn't
MAS – BARGS SUCKS! TRADE HIM FOR NOTHING AND FIRE BC!
me – Bargs is awesome, we are so lucky to have him.
MAS – LOOK AT HIS PER, LOOK AT HIS D, LOOK AT HIS REBOUNDING! I CAN’T BELIEVE BC DRAFTED THIS IDIOT. FIRE BC. TRADE BARGS
me – No way! Bargs is awesome, I love his 3 pt shooting. He is a future all star!
MAS – YOU ARE A HOMER AND STUPID. LOOK AT HIS STATS! I AM RIGHT! I AM RIGHT!
me – you are a hater. Bargs is amazing, look at his ppg!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
The argument was
MAS – BARGS SUCKS! TRADE HIM FOR NOTHING AND FIRE BC!
me – We shouldn’t trade Bargs when his value is an all time low. He can score and might be useful off the bench, eventhough 10 million is a high pricetag for that.
MAS – LOOK AT HIS PER, LOOK AT HIS D, LOOK AT HIS REBOUNDING! I CAN’T BELIEVE BC DRAFTED THIS IDIOT. FIRE BC. TRADE BARGS
me – Dude, i hear you, but no point is fretting. We have to find a way to take advantage of his strengths. His rebounding numbers kill me too, but I think using an amnesty on him is biting off your nose to spite your face. BC had a tough draft that year and had called Bargs out at the end of the season. Endlessly dumping on Bargs serves no purpose…
MAS – YOU ARE A HOMER AND STUPID. LOOK AT HIS STATS! I AM RIGHT! I AM RIGHT!
me – You are a hater and I don’t think you even understand the conversation I am trying to have with you.
MAS – A HATER! A HATER! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT! I AM RIGHT! LOOK AT HIS STATS! I CAN’T BELIEVE SO MANY STUPID PEOPLE CALL ME A HATER! BLAH BLAH BLAH
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
not to change the realative tone of this thread (which is a lot nicer than I expected) but I’m not sure the conversations went quite as you are explaining them.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
lol
That could be true. I may be exagerating to make a point.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Who cares exactly, how it went. What’s done is done. Let’s focus on the present and more importantly the future…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 25, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
scott...I love ya, man...
but I just want to be a little more giving to my man, Gray.
Ya…he started out OK…but still they didn’t get off to a rediculous start again.
He did make them stop owning the middle.
Then, when pulled…he was not on the court when things really went ugly.
IMO…he still, in fact the entire starting unit, still had not gotten gelled together with Bargs back.
Next…he did great in the opening 3rd when the Raps traditionally have been killed yet again. Do you remember the last 3 3rd qtrs?
I do.
They were wrist cutting poor!
He got exactly the amount of time I would like him to get…15 to 18 minutes. However…his role last night was far more important than you imply. Stopping death blows inside and filling large spaces and forming shooting walls from which better shooters an take safety is extremely important even IF you do not show up as a star in the game.
as I recall...
the first quarter ended up with mindless one and done outside jumpers.
Now I do not know what causes this…desperation or what….but it began to look stupid bad again.
I think it was somewhere near the end of the second when they started moving the ball and making better shot judgements.
But for awhile…I never saw a worse outside one and done mentality than I was seeing once again from the team.
I was getting very angry.
I agree
Gray was solid. I just don’t see Amir Johnson and Ed Davis playing less then twenty minutes combined going forward. The team has too much invested in both of those guys. I do think it will be interesting to see how Casey continues to use Gray though; he has played well enough to earn the minutes he is getting.
by Scott Campsall on Jan 25, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
agree...again
that’s why I say 15 to 18 or 20 max is all I would want from Gray.
Amir was just bothering coach and I expect all of us by his wierd lack of toughness these past games. There is a reason Gray becomes a fan favoritewith every team he is on….the work ethic and stability he brings every damn night.
He really talks and shouts out on defense to other players…you can see it.
I certainly want Amirto take the 20 plus minutes along with Gray.
But Coach needs to work Gray in when bigger guys are having their way inside.
You will give up offensive opportunities inside…but you should be safer.
Come to think of it…I also think Gray will be more offensive ONCE he develops his defense and the team feels itslf is opening up the middle.
As it is, who cared if the Raps had somebody open outside!? The odds were poor the shot would be good. So they clogged the middle.
Now, with Bargs back and hopefully others suddenly feeling better about shooting outside, the inside will open slightly and Gray, Amir and anybody big inside will have a little space.
I agree
I’ve been reading you big up Gray all season. It has been nice to finally see Gray on the court. He is the type of C that fans have wanted for years! He is a true C, he is there for his defence and toughness – the opposite of what Bargnani brought. Hell, when Rasho is the best C your franchise has ever had, you start to long for a little toughness.
I also don’t mind him taking minutes from Amir at the 5. Amir isn’t a 5. He is trying his best and won’t whine about it, but it is clear that he is already breaking down and unable to keep it up. If Bargnani truly is our starting PF moving forward, something will have to be done about the logjam at that position. Amir and Ed are assets that we could use to upgrade other positions.
So far, Gray is doing well in his audition for the future back up to Big Jonas. It is nice that he is a true C and relatively young. I am totally drinking the koolaid, and it is ppellico that got me on it.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
wow...i am getting the love
yes, gray will make a fantastic backup for the big european center coming IF
one…he stays here. He was given only a 1 year deal and he will decide. I think he should be upgraded during this season if the raps were smart.
2nd…the euro guy does make the transition from team ball to nba ball. really different styles…the nba being more of a 1 or 2 guy designed system while europe loves everybody in the plan.
and it is tons tougher. the inside of the nba game is BRUTAL, especially come playoff time.
THATS when real centers show their stuff.
NBA Scoring Leaders
As insane as this sounds, Bargnani is a few solid games from being 5th or even 4th in the NBA in scoring! (currently sitting 6th)
Carmelo (5th in the scoring race) is only 0.7 PPG ahead, and he’s now caught in a bit of a media mini-scandal around him and Amare co-existing (and scored all of 1 point in his last game)… so, he may be going out of his way to be the assist guy vs. the inefficient scorer for a few games.
Kevin Love (4th) is 1.5 PPG ahead, but he has the contract negotiation distraction, and has put up a few stinkers recently (sub-30% shooting,). However, given that the T-Wolves have injuries to Beasley and JJ Barea, I really don’t see Love’s stats dropping at all.
Could anyone here have imagined Bargs at #5 in league scoring when the season began?
never rally knew about him...
but do enjoy seeing him talk it up to others at time outs.
In fact I think the whole team seems to be talking. On defense I see fingers pointing and shouting going out warning fellow teammates of coverages.
A thing of basketball beauty.
Imagime one more hot outside shooter!
Imagine how much better the game will be if you had yet another SG or solid percentage outside shooter to help Bargs out!
I would love just ONE more…even if off the bench!!!
What the Raptors need now
is a plan. A plan for bringing back Ed and DD from the ashes. I do not believe AJ is in need of such a plan, but as it seems like we can count on AB (BTW, really, no ONE man should eat all that pasta) to bring it at that level more or less consistently, this season should be about internal growth of the other assets.
Couldn't agree more Renato
First of all, loved the “no ONE man should eat all that pasta” quote. That’s awesome and so appropriate considering who we’re talking about.
Secondly, the win in Phoenix was nice, no one wants a 9 game losing streak and the players need a little sugar for their efforts. However, I hope Casey’s focus is as much on development as it is on winning now. If both Ed AND Demar don’t pan out, this team is set back 2 or 3 years in the rebuild and no one wants that.
Agree 1000%
development…
but again, that doesn’t mean winning should not be sought.
The problem comes that when you are developing and losing…then the second guessing and fan madness takes hold.
It become overbearing for a coach to stay with what he sees as a plan, what he sees as improvement, and to stay with it if the screams get so loud they drown out all thinking.
Even here on this sight we all know without Bargs the team had no chance. But then there was a ton of trash thrown at poor combinations by the coach. Well, maybe he was still checking out combinations and player abilities.
Here IF Gray, or anybody, does poorly…the shouts for change just pop up. Without any memory about the lockout, without any memory of the short one week practice of a brand new team, without any memory of the heart issue.
Just he sucked in the 2 minutes…so sit the bum down.
I am glad I do not participate in anything that the public has any right to opine on every morning. I would eventually be put into prison for killing a few.
as far as I'm concerned
DD should be trade bait. Yes I know I’ve been saying the same thing about Bargnani since his 3rd year and he has managed to turned it around this season, but I think that is one part NBA anomaly and one part talent hidden behind passivity.
Derozan I don’t think has the talent. I also think the law of averages won’t allow this team to have a second player change significantly.
Ed, by my standards, has until next season but his drastic change from last season (this is no longer just ‘regression’ this is a disappearance) is terribly concerning
This topsy turvy world of Raptors from the last 3 years to this year is blowing my mind. Either that or I have to lay off the meth (or take more… not sure which yet).
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’m willing to wait until the end of the season on both. Let’s hope that this is one of those scenarios where Casey needs to brake them down before they can be built back up. Last year was a f’n free for all where everyone could pretty much do what they want, there was little to no structure and the inmates were essentially running the asylum. This year, everyone has to play “the right way”. So let’s hope Ed and Demar are just slow to adjust. Let’s hope…
my concern there
is the same I’ve had with Bargnani for the last few years… is leaving it and ‘hoping’ things change worth the risk of his trade value plummeting? Maybe I’m just to conservative with players ‘value’ but its just not a risk I want to see the team take.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough...
But could DeRozan’s trade value be any worse? Don’t get me wrong, NO ONE on this team is untouchable IMO. It’s just that I wouldn’t be actively looking to move DeRozan or Ed at this point. If the right deal comes along…….
Yeah. At this point in their career, unless you are getting a prospect or pick you feel is much better than they are, there isn’t much point in giving up on them. If another GM is interested, they will make the call. No need to be shopping them at this point. Earliest time for that (if they continue to struggle all year, or get better but don’t fit the plans) would be draft time.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 25, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
hold your fire, for now
Yeah, I think the Raptors would be better off riding out the season with the current squad. If some GM phones up with a great offer then that is another story.
I’d be interested in seeing the Raptors parlay an asset into an extra pick in the upcoming draft, but only if the right deal is available.
Next offseason will be a crucial time for Raptors to take stock of what they have and determine what direction they are going to go.
A Barbosa for pick/prospect trade is the only thing that I would encourage BC to persue at present. Other than that he should be totally focused on evaluating potential draft picks.
by DW19 on Jan 25, 2012 4:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Honestly, if he can find any value for the vet min players he signed, he should pursue it. Barbosa is the most likely candidate, but perhaps Butler or Carter could net a 2nd rounder. They’ve certainly stopped bringing any value on the court.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 25, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously, I don’t mind trading those guys, but they really have no trade value whatsoever (maybe a conditional 2nd rounder in 2017, or that kind of thing). Other teams could sign equivalent players for free.
I’d rather BC spend his time on scouting than on trying to get something for Rasual Butler.
by DW19 on Jan 25, 2012 4:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also
The thing about DeRozan is that he doesn’t particularly do anything special. Athletic scoring wings are a dime a dozen. They should be fairly easy to pick up in a draft, trade or FA signing. Every team in the league has a 15 ppg 2 guard. DeRozan is getting every chance to do that and doing nothing.
I was always more patient than most with Bargs because if he ever did get it, he would be a fairly unique asset. But if DeRozan gets it, he’ll still just be a typical 2 guard. There are loads of them in the NBA, D-League and Europe.
Don’t get me wrong, if DD can be thhe scoring guard we need him to be, cool – one less thing we need. But I think there are a lot of ways to get what we want DD to be.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what has come of Azubuike?
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Interested in watching the Jazz tonight
I saw their first game of the season and they were pathetic. I had them pegged as a bottom 5 team.
Next thing I know they’ve won 9 of 11 games in the new year with 2 losses coming to LA and Dallas in tight games. Ridiculous.
Also interested in seeing Kanter. Thought he would be a good choice if he fell to the Raps, but each time I’ve seen him (only in spurts) he looks so incredibly slow. Yao Ming slow.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 12:25 PM EST reply actions
He is slow. I watched the Dallas game and even the commentators were noting how slow he was gathering himself to go back up on off rebounds.
This is the risk you take...
When you draft unknown quantities from overseas with little valuable comparative date. There is always an additional element of risk when there is no NCAA or American experience to draw on.
Disclaimer: Before anyone starts, I am not suggesting that international players aren’t as good as North American players or vice versa. I am simply suggesting that when you pick an international player you have to deal with the fact that you are at a relative disadvantage as far as information based on level of competition etc..
project
Kanter looked like a project going into the draft and that is proving to be the case. I would’t write him off too quickly, but he certainly has bust potential.
Valanciunas is no sure thing either, but at least the (Euro) data available on him is more extensive and more promising. I assume JV will show lots of hustle in his first season, but will need some serious polishing before becoming a major contributor.
Kanter may work out, but it is going to take a while. A summer of serious NBA-style physical training should do him a lot of good.
by DW19 on Jan 25, 2012 4:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have spent hours
on this sight in previous season’s defending Bargnani, saying he wasn’t being used right.
Last year, I gave up on him – go figure! Bizarro Bargnani?
Has little to with the way he was/is being used...
He’s getting the same shots as last year, he’s just making them now, being more aggressive and actually attempting to try to play defence.
Bottom line is this, before this year, he was a terrible basketball player and there’s no other way to look at it. There was nothing standing in his way, no excuse. For some reason, this year, he’s no longer terrible (so far) and the changes are one’s HE has chosen to make (with leadership from Casey).
I think this is precisely right
For some reason, this year, he’s no longer terrible (so far) and the changes are one’s HE has chosen to make (with leadership from Casey).
And it aligns with those Caliper tests (if you believe in them) that said Bargnani was virtually immune from outside thinking. BC interpreted that to mean Bargs had ice-water in his veins and would not feel pressure. What it actually meant was that he pretty much was uncoachable in parts of basketball that did not interest him.
If any of this is true, then this change to Bargnani’s game will stick because it would represent a fundamental change to who he is.
You know it's funny....
While BC (or the Consultant hired by BC) interprets those calliper test results as indicative of someone having "ice water in his veins" one could just as easily argue that these results are the textbook definition of someone who is aloof (reserved or reticent; indifferent; disinterested). What’s even MORE interesting is that over the last 5 years and the last 12 games we have seen BOTH profiles from Bargnani! 5 seasons of indifference and disinterest and 12 games of "ice water".
I suppose this goes to the utter lack of value of "personality tests". The human mind is arguably the most complex thing in the universe, to think you can adequately predict someone’s behaviour by spending an hour with them and having them answer some multiple choice questions is absurd.
You know what
I gotta disagree – and I realize the sample size is small.
Fot his career he was out of position and had a ball stopper in CB4 as the leader of this team. Mitchell and his assistant, Triano, catered to Bosh.
Maybe Bosh should of stayed at C(he played it in his rookie year) and Andrea should have played PF- it would of been better for the team.
Bosh is playing a lot of C for the Heat now, why – its for the betterment of the team/ His ego and Sam\s/ Jay catering to him did not help. That and the fact that both Mitchell and Bosh seem like assholes probably did not help the situation.
Well the whole C vs. PF debate is a red hearing as Bargnani is still guarding the least effective offensive big on the other team and the Raptors still cannot pick who defends him on the other team. Regarding Chris Bosh, how come he can coexist with other MUCH better players on the Heat yet he was so detrimental to Bargnani’s play? The only thing that changed after Bosh left was his usage increased. His defence and rebounding was consistent throughout his entire career. It was Ass (and his rebounding is still not much to write home about). So really, all that has changed is his engagement on D and he’s now hitting shots (and being a bit more aggressive). This has A LOT more to do with Andrea Bargnani than it has to do with Chris Bosh.
There were excuses
He was playing behind Bosh
His role was changed over and over
He was new to being the number one option
He didn’t have any talent around him
He was playing out of position
Big men take years to develop
It took him longer to adapt, coming from another country
He didn’t speak the language
He wasn’t physically mature
He wasn’t man enough to go inside and was settling for outside shots
-etc
I don’t think that all those excuses were legit. I can understand someone thinking none of those excuses were legit. Unless, this miracle season continues. If he continues at his current pace, then maybe many of those excuses were legit. But to say there was no excuses before would be to deny the many, many, many excuses people have made for Bargnani.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 25, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Could it be the coaching?
Casey has done something right – Bargnani is still the same person. Maybe he is being coached right.
As Casey stated – there is not a democracy.
With Sam and Jay, both rookies and yet to be rehired, CB might have had too much input.
He wasn’t man enough to go inside and was settling for outside shots
that would have been a fanboy excuse? well, with such friends, who needs enemies?
Bosh
has no option – he defers to Lebron and Wade.
Miami actually struggled last year until Bosh learned to accept his role, once he realized his job Miami improved. He stated it himself, he had trouble accepting his role. Once he did, Miami got better.
Bosh was never asked to defer to Bargnani, Sam or Jay wouldn’t dare ask.
LOL
Bosh defer to Bargnani!?!?! What? Are you serious?
Not entirely true
After the Marion trade back a couple years ago, Bargnani had a very good second half….so good that BC felt compelled to sign him to a 5 year extension. During that stretch, Bargnani saw an increase in touches and his play improved as a result. Bosh still got plenty of touches, but not as many as he did prior. Defer probably isn’t the right word, but there was a more equitable split of the shots to be sure.
Now, that team had no depth, so Bosh could afford to give some shots up to Andrea. But Andrea’s play clearly improved during that stretch. Enough so that BC deemed it proof that they could play together and went all in with the Hedo signing. Of course, Hedo’s signing meant less shots to go around and everybody suffered as a result.
I would have been interested to see Bosh defer to Andrea on the offensive end for an entire season. Bosh’s game is best suited as a 2nd option, so it might have worked. But there is no way Bosh would have agreed to that I suspect.
Sorry, got to correct you here. Bargnani’s play did not improve, his may have usage increased but his level of play and efficiency remained constant. BC gave him an extension because he didn’t understand advanced metrics and didn’t understand the relation between usage and points per game. He was still an inefficient offensive player that didn’t do ANYTHING else of value on the court.
Not true
Niether of us know exactly why, but what seems to make sense to me, was that BC tied up Bargnani early because he was dripping with potential. Many folks didn’t see that potential because his stats were so bad. BC saw his skill set and thought that it was a smart move to lock him up early. It is your absolute tunnel vision that gets my back up. It just sounds like a grumpy old man now that BC’s patience and long term planning have paid off. After years of seeing BC and Bargnani being thrown under the bus (possibly by short sighted fans, possibly by knowledgable fans), can you just allow us this (possibly brief) moment in the sun? The Raps after all are your team too.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jan 26, 2012 7:56 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, the Raps are my team as well and don’t get me wrong, I hope for the best for Bargnani, BC and everyone with the Raptors as I can’t watch 4 more years or terrible basketball and bad decisions. However, I don’t think we should re-writ history or we’re doomed to make the same mistakes and not progress.
Well, in terms of re-writing history, BC clearly signed Bargnani for the exact reasons Archibald states – he felt Bargnani’s potential impact would out run his contract value. Stating that he clearly knows nothing about advanced stats or usage rate, you must be being deliberately obtuse here, right? That’s like criticizing a stock broker for buying into a stock that is low, but then leaps to much higher than he bought it for, and saying he was stupid for buying such a low stock, when there were stronger stocks out there to buy in to at the time. Colangelo even stated at the time that the contract was good for both parties – Bargnani got the guaranteed money, Colangelo gets the payoff when Bargnani’s value eclipses his pay – which, based on this season so far, has happened.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 26, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Their shooting percentages are similar
would we of been better off? What was our record the last two season’s Bosh was a Raptor? Could we of been worse?
You should use the reply button...
Anyways, if your going to somehow argue that Bosh should have differed to Bargnani when they played together and Bargnani was one of the worst players in the league, I don’t think we can continue this discussion…
Seriously, I'm not trying to be rude
I just don’t think we there is anything left to be said.
Bargnani is
a better offensive player than Bosh, was from his third year onward.
There is no discussion with this point – see through your hate.
I'm not sure about that
Bargnani has a 3 pt shot that Bosh didn’t… but Bosh was offering in this 3rd year what Bargnani is offering right now.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Bosh
was putting up big numbers on a shitty team – the ball stopped with him.
Bargnani’s arsenal is more than CB4 ever had – soooooo obvious
just to clear somethng up
isn’t Bargnani putting up big numbers on a shitty team?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 25, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
although the sample size is small – whats our record with Bargnani in the lineup?
We were supposed to be shitty, but if Bargs continues at the surprising results he has given us, shitty might not be the right adjective. Middle of the pack would be more apropo.
whoops
not sure what happened
Whats our record with Bargnani in the lineup, small sample size and all.
With his unexpected improvement, middle of the pack is a better adjective.
+1, but I have always been a Bosh Hater…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 25, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
You’re right, but I would add the caveat that Bargnani has a more diverse offensive game than Bosh. What has made Bosh the superior offensive player in the past was his efficiency.
Simply put, Andrea can do anything on offense that Bosh can do. Bosh can’t do everything Andrea can do. To his credit, Bosh never tried to, which played into his better efficiency. Also, it’s taken years for Andrea to get to the point that this is even a conversation worth having.
well, I have seen Bosh trying to
start from the 3pt line and try to finish at the bucket. After seeing it once I understood why I had never seen it before….and why I am unlikely to see it again.
minus the passing
it does not get completely captured in stats as Andrea’s team mates are having a problem scoring.
There is something else however you are getting with Andrea which you (all) Canadians seem to be missing:
Andrea may be the first star you have who actually roots to be there. That can have important ramifications for the future development of the franchise. Moreover, keep repeating it to yourself, Andrea makes 9M this year hist could be the very reason why the Raps will have a chance to build a contender.
You never got either of these two things with Chris.
Great point. I always said Andrea at half the price is considerably better than Bosh…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 25, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Bosh was one of the most efficient offensive players in the league and was a league leader in PER during this era. Bosh had 3 years of leitmate production before he left for Miami. Bargnani has 5 years of high usage/low productivity offense and 12 games of good production… There’s really no contest. We can slice and dice the stats any way you want.
Tinman I think we can agree that Bargnani is playing better so far this season
Let’s not re-write history here…
Raptors would of been
a better team, with Bosh playing second fiddle to Bargnani on O.
Hell we could not of been worse. Seriously……………….
Bargnani and Bosh together is a terrible combo no matter who is the lead fiddle…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 25, 2012 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Display of emotions
I was shocked when Bargnani showed that much emotions late in the 4th after he made a basket after the timeout. It was also good to see Calderon’s having a heated conversation with Resual Butler after the botched inbound pass.
One other thing I like is Bargnani and DeRozen having good complicity on the offensive for a 2-3 minute span in the 3rd quarter. It was good to see Bargnani passing the ball to a cutting DeRozen even though most of the possession did not result in a basket.
"most of the possession did not result in a basket."
this must be a new concept in basketball :)
*Shrug*
I think Bargani continuing to find a cutting DeRozen will go a long way towards helping DeMar climb out of his funk.
by OxNumberNine on Jan 25, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
If Derozan can not add 10-15 pounds of muscle to his frame or get on a team that only runs, his numbers won’t improve much…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 25, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
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