Tip-In: Gassed; Raptors Run out of Steam in Fourth Quarter, Lose to Magic
by Adam Francis on Jan 2, 2012 8:02 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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A great first three quarters against the Orlando Magic unfortunately couldn't translate into a win as the Raps dropped their third straight match. The HQ takes a look at the loss...
With about four minutes left in the third quarter, Jose Calderon was looking for someone to pass to.
The shot clock was winding down, and he had to create.
His baseline drive was cut off by Jameer Nelson, and his hot hand, Andrea Bargnain was out of reach.
However instead of a turnover, Jose makes a nifty behind-the-back pass as he heads baseline again, this time finding an open Amir Johnson a few feet away from the cup.
Amir catches the ball, turns, raises up for the jump shot...
...and shoots a brick.
This wasn't the TSN turning point on the night so to speak. No, that point was probably somewhere in the last two minutes of the same quarter, when minus Calderon and Bargnani, the Raptors failed to get anything going offensively, and began to allow the Orlando to crawl back from a 13 point deficit.
The fourth quarter mirrored the final possessions in the third quarter to a large extent, and when all was said and done, the Orlando Magic came away with a 102 to 96 victory.
So why highlight the behind-the-back pass from Jose to Amir?
To me, it stood out as a microcosm of this match to a large degree.
Even though the Dinos' shot 46 per cent on the evening, their offense struggled mightily at key points, and outside of Andrea and Jose, there just wasn't much to draw from in terms of fire power. And watching Jose probe and wheel on that possession, looking for something, someone, who could perhaps put the ball in the basket outside of Andrea, hammered that home.
DeMar DeRozan finished with 17 points, but almost half of those came from the free-throw line as he shot 4 of 12 on the night.
After that, it got even uglier.
Rasual Butler didn't hit a shot, and neither did James Johnson.
Guys like Ed Davis and Leandro Barbosa, counted on to be secondary scorers, were 4 of 12 on the night combined.
And even Andrea, who I felt again gave it his all at both ends of the court, just didn't have the energy to finish things off. He had a fairly efficient 28 points as well as 7 rebounds and 3 assists, but with the game on the line, his jumpers just didn't find the bottom of the net as consistently as they did earlier on.
41 minutes will do that, and game MVP Jose Calderon (18 points, 13 assists, including his 3000th, and only one turnover) logged 36 himself thanks to the ineffectiveness of reserves like Anthony Carter.
Unfortunately with Jerryd Bayless likely out for a little while longer, I don't expect a break for Jose, nor Andrea for that matter, any time soon.
The team turns right around now and takes on the Knicks tonight in New York and for that one, here are our three keys:
1) Bench production. 22 points last night, 22 the night before, and so far this season the team just isn't getting enough out of it's pine crew. There's admittedly not a lot there offensively with Bayless out, but one guy that needs to get more involved is Ed Davis. It's a weird situation but Ed just isn't having the impact I think we all thought he would so far this season. On top of that, he played only 12 minutes against the Magic after averaging about 20 on the season. Yes, Ed needs to get going, but the onus here is on Casey and crew too to find out a way to use the former Tar Heel. Right now, he seems to be drifting aimlessly when he's out on the court, something that isn't going to help him get more PT, or help the Dinos get more W's.
2) Paging DeMar DeRozan. Speaking of drifting aimlessly, the other player that I think this description applies to so far this season is DeMar DeRozan. Coming off an excellent end to his sophomore campaign, he, like Ed, seems to still be trying to figure things out. It's pretty early in the season obviously but the team needs him to start knocking down shots more consistently, as well as being more aggressive on O. The nine trips to the free throw line against the Magic was a great start, and so was his rebounding performance, and against the likes of Toney Douglas, Landry Fields and Bill Walker, he's got a major opportunity to get his O back on track.
3) Rebound the basketball. Toronto has been a pretty solid rebounding team so far this season. Even though Dwight got his numbers, and provided issues for the Raps inside, guys like Amir Johnson and Jamaal Magloire did an admirable job working with what they had. On the season, the Raps haven't been crushed on the glass that often either and tonight they take on a Knicks' team that's one of the league's worst rebounding groups. No Amar'e helps this as guys like Josh Harrellson have been left to hold down the fort. If the Raps can keep possession by getting second and third chances via the glass, it will give them an opportunity to put up some easy points on O, plus on D, potentially keep a high-scoring Knicks attack at bay
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IMO...JJ did at least
one of THE key things in my stat book…had assists.
Seeing the first half ( I had a child emergency and missed the second) and his getting I believe 5 assist made me proud.
OK…I get blasted becuase I demand my players to play hard enough defense that they never end a gome wthour a foul. Many here think this madness and say you can play the game and still have no fouls night after night.
I say Bullshit,
At least not in the midle.
But assist!
Now that is yet another badge of success.
Especially the assist gotten by my big men.
This shows me that we are FIRST feeding the ball inside and
Second, the big men are recognizing they have no shot and see their options.
I was really proud of this play of JJ but cannot speak to his second half as I did not see it.
It sounds as if he started chucking up jump shots.
Andlastly…again IMO, the Raptors walk away with a solid win last night if they had Gray availabale.
Gray loves to play the big sissy, or as I call him..the GREAT POUTER…Howard.
He is the true Big Baby.
For years I have seen him dissapear from games if he wasn’t getting calls or was just not doing well.
You play him hard and he cries, he pouts.
We need another big to throw in.
Gray playing
Makes absolutely no difference in this game. I get that you love Gray as a player. I like him as a backup C or as a starter but with limited minutes, but that’s about it.
The Raptors lost because Jose and Bargnani got gassed and there was no one else who could help offensively. Sure, eventually, the defense became less effective, but the rot started on offense with about 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Once the Heat began to score, the Raptors couldn’t reply. Gray wouldn’t provide any more offense or defense that Magloire or Amir provided.
let's get this clear...
I never said or believed Gray was THE answer.
I have always tried to explain his role as a solid back up center getting 15 to 20 minutes per game.
Now enough of the insinuating my love of the kid blinds me to his real worth.
But I really don’t think it will stop posters from taking little thoughts and twisting them into things I never said or believe.
Next…solid defensive, and sometimes offensively, Gray will in fact allow teammates to last longer and be more successful.
ANY solid big man in the middle will do this!
You simply need a big man to defend and open opportunities for others. You need a big solid wide body to wear down the opposition so THEY are the ones running out of gas just because they grew tired of running and pushing you around.
TRUST me. I have seen Gray play Orlando. In fact last year I was lucky enough to afford floor level seats when NO beat them in their building. And again Gray, who has done so many times before, wore down and frustrated the hell out of THE BIG POUTER Howard.
He didn’t WIN the game for NO…he was just another important part of the big picture.
And they missed him last night.
Yes…they missed him last night as well as the night before.
They can do without him…but not until they get yet another big wide body like him.
The raptors are held hostage right now because his ingury and the limits to the roster are forcing them to lose this part of the game.
Play him or find a replacement in the middle.
But I just loved JJohnson's assists!
God do I love a big man when he passes out to an open player with a better shot!
Why is it sooooo hard to find centers with this skill?
Isn’t ball movement something you are taught in high school?
Maybe The Reason J. Johnson Passes So Much
is because he knows he can’t shoot worth sheet.
Cool
It’s just from your overall post, it seemed as if you were saying that if Gray had played, the Raptors would have won, which is something I completely disagree with. In my opinion, Gray playing would not have made a difference in the outcome of the game.
I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying.
its still early
and there is a long ways to go.
But as of right now the Raps defense rating sits at 109.6 (27th in the league) and offense rating sits at 105.1 (12th in the league).
Both are a step up from last year (112.7 defense rating in 2010/11… which is amazingly pathetic) so there is progress (ofcourse with a bar as low as almost 113 thats not necessarily hard). But if the Raps are supposed to hang their hat on their D this year… why has it felt like they are trying to do the exact opposite the last 2 games?
The Raps offense was bad in the 4th quarter…. but the problem was the ‘better’ offensive players were on the floor. So its hard to justify trying to get the offense going when the players Casey had out there were not producing. The defense was non-existent… but the problem was the ‘better’ defenders were on the bench. So, from a very simple equation, if the offense isn’t working, why not try some defense? That is supposed to be the goal this year anyways right? right? right?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 9:09 AM EST reply actions
And this seems about right. Casey is getting more out of the same roster than Triano did… BUT Casey isn’t necessarily doing anything different in terms of the rotation or minute allotment. We’re still seeing a massive reliance on Bargnani even when he clearly struggles to be effective past that 30 minutes of PT mark.
This team desperately needs the influx of talent that Valanciunas and the 2012 lottery pick are going to bring.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 9:39 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Thanks for the D and O ratings NSFS, that’s about where I thought things would be.
Casey indeed is getting ore out of the troops so far, and using them to their strengths, but talent still rules…and Toronto is still sorely lacking.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 2, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Ed Davis
I’d give him more minutes at the expense of Bargnani. At least for a few games to see if he finds a rhythm with a little more PT. Bargnani has been gassed at the end of the last two games, so cut down his PT by 5-10 minutes and get Ed out there more. If Ed is stinking it up then send out Magloire or Alabi.
Give Davis the chance to play his way out of the current slump the way the Raptors have for Bargnani and others in the past.
good idea
we should absolutely give Ed some more floor time because he looks disinterested out there. Hope he gets a chance to play his way out of his slump.
+1
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 2, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
DeMar
I am not that upset that DeMar got half his points at the FT line. In fact, I would love to see that more often (assuming he is not hitting a terrible percentage from the field).
My ideal DeRozan statline would read something like this:
2-pt 5-9, 3-pt 1-2, FT 7-9, for 20 points on a very efficient 11 shots
by DW19 on Jan 2, 2012 9:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’d like that too. The problem is that his ball-handling skills haven’t gotten to the point where I think it’s realistic to see him attacking the cup on a regular basis. It’s nice to see the 3’s going down a bit more now, (3 of 6 on the season) but I’d love to see his ball-handling get to the point where he’s leading the attack. Right now the offense is almost solely running through Bargs.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 2, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Energy usage
is an interesting thing. I coached for many years and during that time, I went to a number of coaching clinics. On one of those occassions I talked to a college coach who told me something I had never thought about until then. Scoring the basketball is a particular talent. Not many players can do it well. If a scorer expends a lot of energy playing defense, the scoring ability will suffer. His theory was to have players expend the most energy doing what they are good at. Knowing the group here, that will not be recieved well, but it came to mind when the announcers mentioned a few times that Bargnani lookeed “gassesed”. He didn’t hit the shots at the end. Yes, it is early in the season, yet for every gain there is a price to be paid and it brings in a whole discussion about the value of defense verses offense, who should be taking the shots, who should be getting which defensive assignments and the roles on a team.
Jack Armstrong was noting this too raptball and I have to agree…and it brings me to a question I couldn’t help but ponder, again, last night.
Wouldn’t Bargs be better as a 6th man? Let him play 30-some minutes off the pine in a Vinny Johnson role and let guys like Davis and Amir start and bring the D…save Andrea’s O as much as possible.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 2, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Or at least if you’re going to continue to start the guy, cap his minutes at 30. He’s just not in the type of condition that would allow a player to effectively run 40+ mpg. And I’m not sure if he’ll ever be with the type of work ethic we’ve seen over five seasons in the league.
The bench role is ideal… but it’s going to require a lot of pride swallowing on behalf of Colangelo and crew. I’m not sure why they continue to live in a bubble?!
The upside is that you probably get the same production from Bargs in a 6th man role, playing 30 mpg AND you get a more engaged Ed Davis starting / playing at least 18 mpg (ideally you figure out a way to get him to that 25-30 mpg level).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
can we cut the crap on this work ethic BS?
just because the usual circle here keep repeating it does not make it true. Truth is you have no idea on the subject it is just something made up by by the usual circle of people feeding into each other. like Andrea being the likeliest candidate to show up int a couch potato shape at training camp. I have yet to hear anybody saying: sorry, I was talking out of my a$$ on that. Next year the BS ring will keep feeding on itself: “you know, last year he was the prime suspect to show up in a crappy shape”.
Want to criticize the guy for not being able to play for more that 30-35 min? be my guest, but there is no need to "spice up " the story with gossip, unless you want to make it to Lamar and Khloe…. do you?
When I think of players who I would characterize as having a strong work ethic, Bargnani does not come to mind. He’s essentially had the same game for 5+ seasons and has seen his offensive numbers tick upward with increased usage. He obviously practices enough to keep his performance at a certain level. But would you say the results on the court are indicative of a guy who is driven the same way Kobe or LeBron are driven? Ummm, no.
A strong work ethic would be someone who is continually improving or adding stuff to their game (i.e. expanding their range beyond the arc or becoming a better defender or being able to handle 40+ minutes per night, etc).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
You know what
I think they should start him if the match up is right. If his opponent on the first line requires a lot of intensity defensively then come of the bench. Some 4s are lesser scoring threats, and that’s where he should be.
Jay Triano obviously went to the same clinic. And it’s something I completely disagree with. Defense needs to be something EVERYONE on the court does. Especially in the NBA. Basketball is about finding weaknesses in your opponent. If there’s a player that doesnt have to play defense, then he automatically becomes a liability that can and will be exploited, especially in the playoffs.
I don’t have a problem with players taking easier checks, but loads of good offensive players play both ends of the court. And those are generally th players that lead their team to success.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
There's just no foolin you
You knew I was promoting not playing defense at all. Oh well
The Anti-Amir Campaign At Raptors Republic and Raptors HQ
Keep it up guys. It has gotten to be hilarious.
If you watch the interview of Casey after last nights game according to some here at Raptors HQ Casey lied through his teeth, big time. I guess according to some Casey must be a big time liar.
He said and I am quoting “Amir did an excellent job” (on Howard). Of course as was obvious by watching the game and was reiterated in Jamaal’s interview, Amir and Jamaal both guarded D12 straight up.
So I guess according to some here Casey is just a flat out liar. SMH
Why then did I put Amir under the bus because he can do better and was outplayed by D12.
What he said was hardly an “Anti” statement. If Amir Johnson was as good as Howard we would be talking about things the other way around. Most of the comments were positive and I took the statement in the body to mean Johnson couldn’t keep up with Howard but I don’t think anyone really thought he would be able to. I think you read too much into things sometimes.
RHQ Recap on Amir
Rapid Recap : “For all his added bulk, Amir Johnson is still no match for Superman (as you can tell by Amir’s forgettable line).”
- exactly what is wrong with that? Amir will always have problems matching up against D12. The entire league does. Not sure how this is a criticism of Amir.
Tip In : “Even though Dwight got his numbers, and provided issues for the Raps inside, guys like Amir Johnson and Jamaal Magloire did an admirable job working with what they had”
-ummm yeah.
Budda: Under the bus – Amir Johnson
- uhhh
You are either a pothead (and there is nothing wrong with that) or you are clinically insane. Either way I love it.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Buddha, I don’t get you man…we talked about this before – please read recaps before making stuff up. As NSFS pointed out, I thought Amir did a damn good job on Dwight all things considered. Fronted him, played off him at times, moved his feet…not much more he could have done.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 2, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Shoot A Brick
Man if you want to criticize Amir fairly that is fine. But to go out of your way to say that Amir shot a brick especially when he made a 20 foot jump shot last night and made three out of his five shots, that to me is just out-right Amir bashing.
Sorry that is how I see it.
Shot A Brick
That whole statement fits in with the mime that Amir can not and should not be shooting the ball.. What was the point in writing that?
So maybe he did shoot a brick during the two minutes I missed. So what? Everyone shoots them. Why go out of your way to single out Amir if did happen during those two minutes I missed?
Sorry Adam, but it just reads to me like Amir bashing.
Nothing personal in this.
Amir catches the ball, turns, raises up for the jump shot…
…and shoots a brick.
I must have missed that.
The guy takes five shots makes three and one of his makes was a 20 foot jump shot. His misses to my recollection were a shot attempt that became a held ball and a 10 foot jumper that just barely missed.
“Shoots a brick”
Nuff said
haha
so thats all based off of “shoots a brick”
so ridiculous. A brick is a missed shot… he missed the shot… therefore he shot a brick.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
You Miss The Point
1. The biggest critique of Amir when he came to the Raptors other than his high foul rate, was that he couldn’t shoot
2. The comment appeared totally out of context. What was point in using the derogatory phrase, “shoots a brick” out of context in its importance to the game?
If it was the last shot of the game and meant the difference between winning and losing then fine, I can see that comment being made if that was the case.
But is was one shot that he may have shot a brick on in the two minutes I missed that was totally irrelevant to the outcome of the game.
It was just more of the Amir can’t shoot mime and was just bashing him IMO.
What???
You really do see what you want to, don’t you?
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
In Last Night's Recap
For all his added bulk, Amir Johnson is still no match for Superman (as you can tell by Amir’s forgettable line).
Isn’t that stating the obvious in a derogatory way?
Maybe it is just me but I would have been fine with the statement if it said:
“For all Even with his added bulk, Amir Johnson was is still no match for Superman (as you can tell by Amir’s forgettable line) but then who in the NBA save maybe one or two can guard D12 one one one?
From Defensive Stance Last Night In His Recap
- Something to watch going forward will be the continued regression of Ed Davis. It’s probably too early to label it a sophomore slump – but Davis is clearly not thriving as part of the second unit.
People who read my posts about Ed know that I have pointed out a lot of good basketball qualities that he has, so no need to re-list them here.
But I have also pointed out that I think Ed has a “I want to not be here” attitude.
Lets look at what is happening. As it now stands with Bargnani being moved to the PF and having actually stepped up his overall game pretty good possibly as a result at this move to PF Bargnani isn’t going anywhere. I am for now withdrawing my demand that the Raptors trade him. LOL
Then you have Jonas coming next season. While Jonas can play PF the Raptors clearly drafted him to play Center. Then you have Amir who has bulked up a bit and is able to play Center though I still think he is too light. Now that he is at 255 I want to see him at 270. LOL
So lets assume that the Raptors don’t trade Amir because he can play both the #4 and the #5.
Where does that leave Ed Davis in the scheme of things? Seriously.
If you go with a three man rotation Of Andrea, Jonas and Ed then either Andrea has to play Center when Jonas is off the court or Ed has to play Center. On the other other hand if you go with a three man rotation of Andrea, Jonas and Amir then Andrea would not have to play Center.
I think Ed could be thinking the same thing.
Where are my minutes going to come from?
I have noticed a definite negative body posturing by Ed lately. He just seems to not care and appears to me to only going through the motions. I hope he can get it together and start playing better.
By the way he does chew gum while playing. I noticed a piece of gum on his tongue, yea its creepy, when he opened his mouth during a facial closeup last night while he was playing.
I was actually going to come on here and say that I thought Amir did a good job against Dwight. He is giving up several inches, alot of size and athleticism and Dwight did not dominate the game last night. He may have gotten his numbers but tehre were times last night where you didn’t notice him. In fact it was the Raptors perimeter defence, especially in tranistion that hurt us. We looked tired and didn’t close out on shooters as well as we did in the first half and the Magic hit a ton of 3s. (7-13 in the second half)
Andrea definitely was gassed at the end of the game but I thought he looked very good for the first three quarters. Even at the end of the game he shot 50% (excluding a heave at the end of the game), and got 7 boards. You can really notice when he becomes fatigued as he starts to rely more and more on his jump shot and not attack the rim. While the offence looked good for 2 quarters and 10 minutes, Casey cannot leave a lineup out there of LB, Carter, Davis, Magloire and Johnson it is just dreadful to watch. I know Bayless is usually the pg there but while he is out he needs to get DD, Jose or Bargs on that lineup. Or the raptors have to make an effort to get Ed Davis the ball, I don’t remember him touching it at any point in a position to score and needs to play more than 12mpg.
Jose looked outstanding yesterday but when the Magic started to be more aggressive and hedge hard in PnR he had trouble pentrating. If Bargs sets the screen and pops Jose needs to look for him popping and snap it back to him, that forces the defence into rotations and gives AB a chance to attack in close out situations.
I guess the AB hate has died down as most people have gone from shipping him out of town to use him as a 6th man. He is shooting over 51%, averaging more points, more rebounds (needs to get 7 a game), more assists, getting close to a block again and people have actually noticed him trying to play defence. He definitely needs to play less minutes but give the man some credit he is playing his heart out. How many times last year do you remember him being gassed? If you are so quick to dole out criticism then if someone changes give them their due, and so far AB deserves alot of credit.
As someone before said Casey has gotten more from this roster in 4 games than Triano did in a whole season, the Raps are competing hard which is the foundation for success. Hopefully it keeps up and when our talent level gets better we can really start to see the progress. GO RAPS GO
by Shalax23 on Jan 2, 2012 1:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’m still in the “trade him” camp for several reasons. The first is that his defense is still not acceptable for a big man.
Second is that he’s never shown the ability to maintain this type of play. In five years in the NBA, he’s shown he’s more comfortable coasting, rather than expending a lot of energy.
Thirdly, there is a logjam at his position and right now Ed Davis is getting lost in that logjam. I’d rather go forward with him as the starting PF than Bargnani, because Davis doesn’t seem to have any fatal flaws that will kill the team in the playoffs.
As for putting him in a 6th man role, I’d rather let another team gamble doing that. He’s always struggled in a role off the bench and there’s a real danger that he’ll regress if put back in that role. Amir is a much better option as a third big off the bench because of his energy and the fact that he plays the same whether he starts, comes off the bench, plays 20 mpg or 30 mpg.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Ed Davis
IMO has no interest in remaining in Toronto.
That is one of the main reasons the Raptors have found their way to the lottery for so many years. They have given too much on court responsibility to players who didn’t want to remain in Toronto.’
Of course you want the best players playing the most minutes but not if it means that they will bail the first chance they get.
Davis IMO is a “snob”. Too good to eat at iHOP. That is just a symptom of this attitude. His nonchalance is another.
I think Ed is all about Ed and not about the team and winning first.
Of course I could be wrong but I have seen no evidence to say that I am wrong on this.
Rumor is that Ed did not want to be drafted by the Raptors to begin with. What he has said and done since only supports that rumor.
I hope I am wrong on this
We shall see
I have no patience for these kind of comments. I don’t think it has any place in an intelligent discussion. It’s fine that it’s your opinion, but it’s based on literally nothing but fan-fed rumours and innuendo. Ed Davis has never said or done anything to indicate he is not happy in TOronto, to my knowledge.
Many people read his reaction at the draft that he didn’t want to be drafted by Toronto, when a more reasonable explanation was that he was disappointed he dropped lower than expected (losing out on A LOT of money). Brandon Knight had the exact same reaction, but Detroit fans are secure enough not to jump to conclusions.
We also know that he’s a very reserved person, on and off the court. He not the type to show a lot of emotion. I remember Robert Parish being the same way and people jumping to conclusions about him.
If Davis had shown any indication he wasn’t happy in Toronto, then that’s different. But I’ve read literally nothing to indicate he is anything like you have described.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
If You Want An Excellent Example of a Winner
than all you need to do is follow Jonas and see what he says and does.
This is the type of player you want on your team, not someone who thinks he is “too good for the D-League, lets everyone know about it and doesn’t want to eat at iHOP”
As you well know, I was ecstatic about the Raptors drafting Valanciunas right from the moment they did, but he’s a different person with a different personality.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
It never ends...
Apparently, we’ll have the pleasure of watching Bargnani run out of gas throughout 2012, if Doug Smith’s latest column is to be believed.
I know a lot of it could be posturing, but does Dwane Casey honestly believe the nonsense coming out of his mouth? Does he truly believe that Bargs should be in the same conversation as guys like Dirk Nowitzki and Dwight Howard? We’re talking about regular season and playoff MVP awards, All-NBA First Teamers, Defensive Player of the Year… should I go on?
Bargs is NOT that guy. He’s a 25-30 minute per night guy who should be able to provide scoring off the bench or in a heavily fortified starting lineup. I don’t care what the current roster looks like. Start using Bargs in a way that is appropriate for his skill set instead of over extending him. Because right now you’re forcing the fans to watch a guy who can’t muster enough energy to defend or close out on a shooter in the final minutes.
It’s like the Orlando Magic trying to build around Ryan Anderson once Howard leaves town. Wouldn’t that get ridiculed throughout the league? Wouldn’t people lose their jobs over something like that?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 2:51 PM EST reply actions
I may be giving away I watch "The good wifee" here but
you mean: " In my opinion"……
Shouldn’t “in my opinion” be implied in every single comment unless someone is referencing a quote?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe
but if you make it explicit rather than implicit, it comes across different, trust me… or ask around
Yes, I should stick to simply calling people biased without actually offering an opinion. I guess that’s your “one trick”.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 3:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I do not think the problem is people having a bias
I believe we all do as much as we try to be objective. The point is just acknowledging it and keep things in perspective.
haha
statements should IMPLICITLY be viewed as opinion when they are posted on a blog.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
really?
you are wrong
I believe you are wrong.
do they come across the same to you?
I'll have a few belgian beers
let’s see if it will help me finding your perspective….
if the idea is that random thoughts on a blog are understood to be someone’s opinion, then it does not matter if one says
you are wrong
or
I believe you are wrong
Now if that person said “in fact you are wrong” there would be ‘required’ evidence to back it up. (ofcourse you have the mistaken (but common) grammatical use of the term ‘in fact’ or ‘as a matter of fact’ that people use when presenting things that are not actually facts at all… but now I’m rambling)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
this was one of my concerns
when Casey was hired.
Bargnani is ‘like’ Dirk, Casey coached Dirk, therefore Bargnani + Casey = Dirk
What did BC say the other day about Bosh not being good enough…….
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Part Of The Problem
IMO is that the Raptors do not a SF that can score and Amir while efficient on offense is not really a scorer. Truthfully neither is Jose although he has his moments.
So who does that leave as scorers?
Bargnani
DeRozan
Bayless
Barbosa
Barbosa is a not an efficient scorer or at least hasn’t been since his injury while playing for the Suns. He also for the most part plays the same position as DeMar.
Jose is preferably to Bayless as a starter, closer and minutes logger at the PG spot because of Jose is a lot more solid experienced player who makes a lot fewer mistakes.
So in affect you are left with only two players to give major minutes to who can score. ISTM that we would see more Ed at the #4 than we are seeing now if the Raptors had a SF who could score, therefore mitigating the need to play Bargnani so many minutes. Kleiza might be that guy when he returns
WHo cares whether they don’t have another scorer, They aren’t competing for anything here.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Huh?
How do you ever expect the Raptors to be a playoff team if they don’t have a solid NBA starting SF?
SMH
My point is that they don’t need ANYTHING right now. Right now the franchise goal should be to get as high a draft pick as possible and select the absolute best player possible. Then they can sort out positions. Its quite possible that 3 years from now, not one player that is currently on the roster will remain.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Not sure about everyone else...
but I actually enjoyed watching the Raptors play and was cheering for them, they played hard and unselfish. Something that they didn’t do the last few years.
I can’t argue with the point would the Magic shouldn’t build around Ryan Anderson but I don’t think the Raptors are building around Bargnani. They drafted JV but he didn’t come over this season and they are most likely going to have a high draft pick this year. The plan seems quite clear to bring in two players next year and build around them with Bargnani being the PF when they come in.
I think the frustration from alot of people has been Bargnani’s lack of development but so far we have seen growth in his game and that he may have the ability to be a starting PF on a good team. It just so happens that the players we want to build around aren’t here yet. If the comparisons about Bargnani to Dwight and Dirk are so obsurd (which they are) why do you bother bringing them up because I didn’t see anyone here making them? I also don’t know why you are blaming Bargnani for the rest of the rosters short comings. I mean if you watched the game you know that the majority of the other guys were awful and the Raptors were forced to rely on Bargnani and Jose. Outside of those two we shot 40%.
So far this season I don’t know why Andrea can’t be a starting 4 playing 32-36 minutes on a good team. Especially with Amir showing the ability to play both the 4/5 for quality stretches it seems like we MAY have our front court for the future set, something I wouldn’t of thought a month ago.
some comments are ridiculous
so now we all talking about over extending bargs and he would be just a bench player coming off a good team? you guys dont understand the game of basketball at all do you? its all about stats… when an opposing team is ready to play you, they have a game plan, they know who the players to stop and what there strengths weaknesses are… so a lot of times, they double team bargs… who else is there to double team. hes putting up numbers and yes we are loosing but hes getting no help. once derozan steps up and a few others off the bench u will see a change. bargs can play 35 min a night as long as he doesnt have to carry it for 35 min. He needs some help. we are only loosing by A FEW baskets and the bench group looks horrible. can you imagine if we had some decent players coming in that can score? it be a lot diff picture
+1
The Raptors need a SF who can score and also play at least passable defense. This would remove a lot of pressure from Bargnani improve the offense and allow Ed to be able to take up some of Bargnani’s minutes
+1
Moreover, I think things are this way by design. There are quite a few SF out there who could improve the team substantially. Gallinari comes to my mind but there are for sure several others. But that is not the plan, the plan seems to be o evaluating / developing the current roster and get a high lottery pick. If that was the plan I would argue it is working like a charm. They have a team showing that could win, without actually winning.
Maybe at the trade deadline things will be improved, after the record has been properly fixed to meet the season ultimate goal.
Gallinari is not what we need at the 3
He’s not bad, but we need an all star player to build a championship team around. At the 3 is our best chance. Right now Barnes seems a lot better bet / gamble than Gallinari. We need to win this bet to get a ring.
Some of the players we have now can be good NBA players for years to come but to win a championship it is almost a requirement to have a superstar and I am not sure we have a top five NBA player on our roster. Actually I am sure that we do not. The draft is the best way to get one.
Gallinari is not the type of player we want on our team. He is a bit soft and not a defensive grinder. Doesn’t fit the new “Raptor player mould” and we can’t count on him to pound the rock. The Raptors are a tough and defensive minded club or cherish the fundamentals of the game and protect the rim with their lives……ah, it sounds so good.
by defensive rap on Jan 2, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Barnes Can Definitely Shoot
Also I would think a bond would develop between Davis and Barnes.
Kidd-Gilchrist on the other hand is a lot more aggressive and has that KY connection with Casey. Kidd-Gilchrist is maybe not as much a team player, a stronger rebounder and not as good a shooter as Barnes is.
Barnes would probably be the best pick among the SF’s in the next draft.
Fair discussion
but I was not trying to make a case for Gallinari, He is just an example of someone who is not unattainable and who could improve our record, which is a scenario , I believe, which is not part of the master plan atm
JJ and Linas
I would like one of those two to work out as a backup 3. I prefer JJ because of his D and the fact that we will have Harrison Barnes next year at the 3 and JJ can be a defensive stopper to share the load so he doesn’t burn out as a rookie.
Linas is tough and can play but the surgery causes doubts in my mind. Good luck to him but I can’t count on him being an asset moving forward. He would have to return to form and be better than he ever was before to give the Raps what they need at the 3.
I need to put this entire discussion aside for a second
and ask if anyone felt like a Sprite after Richardson’s dunk attempt?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 2, 2012 4:57 PM EST reply actions
LOL
I actually yelled “Grant Hill drinks Sprite” as soon as that happened. Sad to see a guy like J-Rich losing his hops.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 2, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Marc Berman: Knicks saying Amare is game time decision but is not out on court for shootaround. Does not look good. Twitter
Rumors tagsNew York Knicks, Amare Stoudemire, Injuries
Marc Berman: D’Antoni called Stoudemire “more on the doubtfull side.” Shumpert said should be back at practice tomorrow after solid workout. Twitter
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