Tip-In: "Yet Another Near Miss" -Raptors come up short against Hawks
by Sasha Kalra on Jan 17, 2012 8:30 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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The Raptors had an early start time against the Hawks and fought valiantly, but couldn't find an answer to Josh Smith all game. The HQ's Sasha Kalra examines the loss...
Well that's that.
The buzzer has sounded and the fourteenth game game of the season has ended in yet another loss for the Toronto Raptors. They didn't let the deficit grow too big during the game and went on a run at the end of the 3rd quarter to make it a one possession match heading into the 4th. They missed their first 7 shots of the final quarter and went on to lose a hard-fought game.
Sound familiar?
The scenario depicted above can be used for many of our losses this year, and I am perfectly fine with it. What the majority of the team's disgruntled fanbase wanted to see this season was progress made in the right direction. It was clear that there was a lack of talent, but this season was all about making strides defensively and competitively.
Sure, Dwayne Casey's offensive sets leave much to be desired. Outside of the Jose Calderon and Amir Johnson pick and roll there isn't really a go-to play that I have seen the team run on a consistent basis. But this season was never about the offense. Forgive me for the cliche, but you can't build a sturdy house without the right base and you always build from the bottom up. For now, we get to see a team leave it all on the court every game and this is resulting in many of these closely contested losses.
So what exactly happened during last night's episode of this similarly scripted season?
The Raptors had absolutely no answer for Josh Smith and he got off to a very quick start, hitting his first 7 shots. He finished with 28 points and 15 rebounds and Joe Johnson chipped in with 27 points himself. The Raptors did well to keep the game close and owe much of their good play to Amir Johnson and Ed Davis.
Davis started very sluggishly on both ends and Johnson was in foul trouble all game but they combined for 20 points, 21 rebounds, 4 steals and 4 blocks. Leandro Barbosa had another great offensive showing but wasn't given much help in the 4th quarter when it was clear he couldn't do it all by himself.
DeMar DeRozan looked disinterested for most of the game and the most emotion I remember seeing from him was when he was walking to the bench while being given a technical foul. Hopefully he can rationally look at the tape from last night and use it as a learning experience.
That was a totally winnable game, and I look forward to recapping many more like it in the coming weeks.
Onward
Sasha Kalra
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Well written
and I agree with your attitude toward this season. One thing worries me though; DeRozan, Bayless, Davis, Johnson and Johnson were pegged as our young and upcoming core from which we were to build from, but so far this season none of them look anything close to stars in the making. By no means am I writing them off but evidence so far is a little disturbing for those of us who hoped we may have had at least one all star (in the making) in that group.
The worst part of it all is so far none of them look like legitimate starters on a good team. Each have their moments but none have been consistently good enough to suggest they should be starters in this league. We desperately need to acquire some talent in the upcoming draft or it may get ugly in. Raptor land in the next couple of years.
Still early though so hopefully I’m completely wrong about our "core" and we do actually have an all star or 2 in that bunch; at this point, if I can be convinced that they guys are starting material I’ll be happy. Hopefully that’s not too harsh of an assessment.
I think that’s why the lottery is so key again this year. If anything, injuries to Bargs, Johnson and Bayless have shown just how far the core “youngsters” have to go, and how much more UPPER tier talent is needed. Not ready to write DeMar off, but the reality is that if you look at NBA history, stud wings are already studs by year 3, year 4 latest. DeMar might still be a key piece on a winning team as a third or fourth option, but right now the club still needs that franchise guy.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
that is scary
Your words are scary, meaning there aren’t many truly franchise guys. If you think that , for all their effort and planning, a Durant free OKC was swept by last year’s Raptors, a 22 win s team…..
Disagree
The injuries have shown the lack of depth on the roster. The same problem that the Raptors had last season.
The starting unit has played well even since Andrea went down. The bench has sucked all season long.
But the starters haven’t been good enough to win games. Think about who’s closing these matches out – Barbosa aside, it’s the starting group, and they’ve laid eggs now in three straight fourth quarters.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
+1
starters on this team would not start on a good team. Key word “good”. Also, starters on this team all have good moments and show flashes of good play but none have been consistent enough to really win games. Calderon and Bargs maybe gets the start on a deep play off team but some here would disagree with that.
Look at the stats – starters are playing the bulk of the minutes and their record is 4 and 9. Not sure how you can argue otherwise. Not like Anthony Carter and Jamaal Magloire are playing 38 minutes a night. Sure, bench has been completely useless, but my point is that the starters haven’t exactly been OKC’s top 5.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Starters playing a bulk of the minutes and the record of 4-9, don’t necessarily go hand in hand.
There is a such thing as fatique. If you don’t give a player some rest, because your bench isn’t performing, then fatique kicks in. They need a bench that can come in, give them some quality minutes, and not put them behind.
Last Year I Would Have Agreed On More Of The Starters
But
1. Jose would start for a number of good teams. He would start for he Lakers, Memphis, Dallas maybe, Orlando, Miami, Indiana, Utah, Atlanta maybe.
2. Andrea would start for a number of playoff teams
3. Amir would start at Miami instead of Anthony, probably Dallas instead of Haywood, maybe Philly instead of Hawes, Atlanta, Maybe Portland, Maybe Denver rather than Mosgov, maybe Thunder rather than Perkins
Here’s the thing – yeah, some of the guys you mentioned would start. But what does that have to do with anything? Just because on paper, a guy might start, doesn’t mean the Raptors have a good starting line-up! Again, all you need to do is look at this club’s fourth quarter performance so far. That’s on the starters. If they were that great, they’d be overcoming the bench’s “egg-laying ways,” not putting up 12 and 13 point performances.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Lebron is a starter on most teams I would think...
He is nearly invisible in fourth quarters…
Just food for thought…
I’m actually on Franchise’s side in this one…
"the Truth"
Though I dislike Lebron a great deal...
…I thinkg his disappearing act in fourth quarters may be a little exaggerated. James has won a lot more games in the fourth quarter than he has lost. It is unfortunate for him that he has pulled his Houdini act during some highly televised games. It makes for great headlines and drama though.
I am not sure that Calderon would start for a lot of teams you mentioned for a number of reasons.
Memphis – Mike Conley is the starter and is pretty good.
Miami – They do not need a Calderon on that team as a starter or off the bench.
Indiana – Collison is younger with more upside
Utah – Debatable
Atlanta – Teague is pretty good.
In a lot of cases you could at least argue that Calderon would be the starter but he is not a must start like say Dwayne Wade or Chris Paul are.
Was thinking similar things re: Memphis and Atlanta.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
These Are Playoff Teams
Calderon is a better PG with championships albeit international ones. He has the best A/T ratio by far of any PG in the league and he is shooting good enough.
Raptors fans just don’t like Jose because of his hand clapping LOL
P.S.
Jose is also not flashy and at least in recent memory has not been hyped by ESPN like some of these other players have.
I am not saying that these young guys won’t be better than Jose but Jose does not make a lot of mistakes on offense and when you are in the playoffs that along with experience are what you want from your starting PG.
Yes his defense could be better and that is important in the playoffs but overall I would rather have him with his pretty mistake free leadership and experience as my starting PG in the playoffs.
While the level of competition may not have been as high no one can argue that the pressure to win in international basketball competition is less than it is in the NBA. In fact would say it is more because in international play you are representing your whole country whereas in the NBA you are maybe representing one city.
The Starters Are Basically Played Even or Better Than Their Opposing Starters
If the Raptors had a seriously good bench they would have won a lot of games.
So I disagree with you again on this.
How do you explain then that the Raps have gone into the final quarter neck and neck with these teams, with the starters in, and lost? Or that the team starters don’t have a net positive PER vs opponents?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
The Raptors Have Not Been Neck and Neck
when Amir, Andrea and Jose have re-entered the game in the fourth quarter in far too many games.
Why do I say this? Amir, Andrea and Jose are on the plus side of the plus/minus stats this season.
Yes there have been games that were close when the starters re-entered in the fourth quarter that the Raptors have lost, but in most of the losses the Raptors were behind in the 4th quarter when the starters re-entered the game.
i agree the bench is weak and that doesn't help
but i also think the starters are average. SG, SF & C positions have been weak so far. PF and PG has been pretty good most nights.
82 games.com backs this up
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
What Does 82 Games Back Up?
1. That the bench has sucked
2. That the starters are just average.
I would agree with that. I am not saying that the starters are stars but compared to other starting units in the league I would definitely say that they are average. Again if the bench was above average rather than well below average the Raptors would have a lot more wins right now than they do.
I think three of the five starters are average overall. The other two have been sub-par. Considering a starting line-up consists of five guys, when three are only average and the other two below that (again, as 82games indicates), then it’s pretty tough to say the starters aren’t an issue at all. The bench is horrid, but if the starters were that good (not just 3 guys) then the team wouldn’t be 4 and 10 right now.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Jose, Amir and Bargnani have played above average this season when you look at the three combined.
See if you can find three starters this season on 15 teams that have played better than a combined Andrea, Jose and Amir.
I can think of about 10 off the top of my head but this is an interesting question – how do those three rate league-wide. Might give us a good indication of how much the 2 and 3 spots are dragging Toronto down.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
We are average compared to the rest and sometimes a little below average
All I’m hoping for is to acquire some talent that takes us to at least slightly above average so we can enjoy some playoff basketball for more than just 1 year with a 3 yrs gap before our next appearance. I’m not saying the Raps starting unit is horrible, just saying this team needs a good draft to go from being average, which we’ve been for soooooooooooooooooo long, to above average which will bring us some playoff action. My first hope for this team is to be good enough to make the playoffs regularly. After that we can talk about being eastern conference champs and then NBA champs but first I just want to see this team become a lock for the playoffs. If we can get there within the next 2-4yrs that’ll be great.
+1
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
I will go one step further...
You also need to look at which positions historically need to be above average to succeed…
The Center position and SG position are typically a deep playoffs team’s two strongest positions…
Our “average or better” positions are PG and PF…
My opinion has repeatedly been posted that PG is the least imprtant to have star talent at, serviceable does the job if you have stars at other key positions…
While our team may have two (or three if you argue for DeMar) average or better starters, they are not at the “key” positions… therefore they have less of an impact…
Look at MVP Rose, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash… All Stars and legends… but without the strong key pieces at the more “playoff important” positions, they get no rings…
"the Truth"
Some great points here and again, think that speaks again to why this draft is so important. If the club can add Val as the 5 and a top prospect at the 3, that’s a pretty good start towards that historical path.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
The Raptors need a SF big time.
You put a all-star type player at SF along with the other four current starters and the Raptors would be a solid playoff team if they had an average bench.
Look what Irving has done for the Cavs. The Raptors are one VG SF and an average bench away from being a solid playoff team.
+1
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Good SF plus JV
If you add a good SF and Jv suddenly our bench isn’t as pitiful.
Amir is the first big off the bench, and Davis is the fourth.
While you can still add a few pieces via free agency to play a good role off the bench.
Whoa
If you think for one minute that Amir is going to give up his starting role so easy when JV is ready to start 2013-14 at the earliest you don’t know Amir.
I wouldn’t bet against him bumping Bargnani out of the starting lineup. You have to remember that Jonas can score and is an excellent shooter. With him starting the Raptors might be better off with Amir’s defense, rebounding and hustle.
As much as Andrea has improved his defense this year he is still no match for Amir when it comes defense and rebounding.
It will be interesting.
as long as he has plaid
AB has been one. Hopefully with JV and the next high pick we’ll get other two. As painful as this is to watch, better times should be upon us soon enough.
I hope better days are ahead but
I can’t help but feel I’ve been down this road before in previous years lol. Being a Raptor fan is not easy :)
+1
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
When have we?
Truth be told we have never been down this road. Since Colangelo took over he has been trying to add a piece to push us to the next level.
First year he re-tooled and did a remarkable job but the majority of those guys were quick fixes. Then he tried to add JO, then Marion, then Hedo and suddenly Bosh left and we were ‘up the creek’. This is the first time he has rebuilt from the ground up and is accumulating young players.
Whatever can be said about this team, right now we don’t have any crippling contracts and we have some talented young players who can hopefully develop.
if their named to the all star team at least a couple times in their career
I’ll call that a star and that’s the level of talent we need. We don’t just need one of those guys but 2.
Agreed
Team has none right now.
Guys like Amir, Ed, Jose etc, can all be solid pieces of winning clubs because of what they bring to the court. But none are match-up nightmares. Bargs is the closest thing the team has, and we need to see a full season of consistent play before we’re even sold on him.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Okay So Lets Go With That Thinking
How many Thunder players have been named to the all-star team a couple of times before this season? One – KD.
Now many Nuggets players have been named to the all-star team even once. Zero.
Both teams are now playoff teams based upon their current records. Last season when the Thunder made the playoffs they had only one player who had been named to the all-star team more than once. KD. This season it will probably be two
The Magic only have one player who has been named an all-star more than once. J. Nelson got it once but that was a joke. So in reality they have only one all-star.
I could probably find more if I looked
The way you get named to the all-star team is to play for a good team and excel. You don’t become a star because you were named to the all-star team.
While I agree with your last line to an extent, there are lots of other factors involved as well. Injuries, the position you play, fan voting…all of those help decide things too. So not sure we should be using an all-star ballot as the metric for success. When I said stars, I should have clarified and meant players who perform at consistently elite levels – and we can look at various metrics to set that bar. And again, don’t think Toronto has any.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Fine Lets Go With That
How many elite players does a team need to be a solid playoff team?
I guess that wold come down to how you define elite player?
The only way I know is by statistics even then it can be open to debate. LOL
Elite player to me is a “media term” or “fan term” because it is so vague and open to way too many interpretations. Most fans and even media tend to use the term “elite player” when there is a player that has been called that by enough media. The media is unfortunately wrong way to often.
Very vague term IMO
Good debate
Just looked at some more stats and if you go by a PER of 15, Hollinger’s “average,” then you’re right Buddah – the Raps actually have 3 positions with a higher collective PER than that. Think this makes for a good blog post now and some further analysis.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Agree
Looking forward to it.
The SF spot is killing the Raptors. While JJ is an above average defender his offense sucks big time and that is being nice. LOL
Stick an all-star SF with the other four starters, DeMar will improve on offense since he will become the third option and the whole starting unit would then be pretty darn good
Amir
Andrea
Lebron
DeMar
Jose
I would have absolutely no qualms about the Raptors having that starting unit. LOL
That only works if Demar starts playing D at a higher level. Just being a 3rd option on offense is not going to cut it on a championship team. That is where he needs to work and until I see that improve he is not going to be anything more than a decent scorer on bad teams (assuming he even develops that far).
Am I being to pessimistic when I look at this team?
I’m all for a defense-first approach, but the offense, for the most part, has been atrocious. This team more and more reminds me of the Larry Brown Charlotte Bobcats and/or Kevin O’Neill Raptors. I hope Val + lottery pick next year are a slam dunk, because it’s painful to watch low-scoring games that we keep losing. I appreciate the effort the boys are putting in though.
I think this echoes the personnel issues the team has. The Raps have a ton of bad individual defenders, so Casey is forced to play them in a system unfortunately that negates their offensive strengths. And yeah, it’s tough to watch.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
this is what I was
trying to get at in the other post, but you have more eloquently explained.
The Raps have players that would fit well on a fast paced team, but don’t fit well on a slow team (James Johnson, Demar, Barbossa). The guys who fit well in a slower pace don’t fit well in a faster pace (Andrea, Magloire, Butler, Ed… just not convinced he has a knack for running the floor). The only guy I think that works at any pace is Amir (and maybe Jose… but defensively a slow pace fits his needs best).
Its not only a matter of a lack of talent but diversity within those individuals. I’m not sure if this will come out as I intend it, but this team needs more guys like Amir…. just better.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Don't Follow Your Logic on This One
Casey is forced to play them in a system unfortunately that negates their offensive strengths.
The Raptors rebounding differential has improved this season. How would improving your rebounding differential negate their strengths on offense?
IMO the reasons that the Raptors aren’t running as much this season on offense are
1. Bayless has been out for basically the entire season. He can lead a fast break, Carter and Forbes can not
2. Amir is now the main rebounder and he is also the Raptors best Big on the fast break However, as fast as he is he can not rebound and get out on the fast break as well as he could when he was playing with Reggie.
3. Ed is not yet strong enough to leave alone in the paint and let Amir run out.
It seems to me that the lack of fast break points this season is due to the lack of talent available to do so, not because of the defense scheme.
If the Raptors had K. Love at PF then they could play the same type of defense and Amir would be free to get out on the fast break. Once he started running and if they had MKG at SF you could have a heck of fast break playing the same type of defense with a lineup of
Love
Amir
MKG
DeMar
Jose
It is the lack of talent that is preventing them fast breaking.
As far as their half court offense schemes being terrible that has nothing to do with their defense.
I agree about the system being the source of the lack of running – the team is holding back from leaking out and locking down the defensive boards – they have been very good at rebounding this year. Similarly, the team is only sending one man for the offensive boards, so they are struggling there, with reduced fast break points scored against them as a result. These are offensive and rebounding strategies, rather than the general defensive strategy, so I don’t know that I agree about the cause being the individual defenders. I think there is a balance to be struck – when the players are comfortable in their current defensive and rebounding roles, we should start to see more leak outs and fast breaks – especially when Bayless returns and we have a little more confidence moving the ball up the court quickly.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
The scary thing is your comment could be inverted to say...
“As long as they are playing exciting basketball and scoring points, even if they lose I could be happy watching this team…” Which has Colangelo / Triano ball written all over it…
"the Truth"
Or at the very least...
“It would be less painful to watch them lose high scoring games…”
Been down that road for far too long…
"the Truth"
Tough to watch, but necessary
Thing is, as tough as it is to watch, I’m fine with it for a season in order to instill some D and other intangibles, and take a giant step towards acquiring more talent.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
I was trying to careful with how I worded it, but probably sounded Triano-esque anyway didn’t it? I’m completely on board with the defense-first mentality, in fact it’s the way to go. I just really hope this team improves on offence at some point, because simply being the Bobcats or O’Neill-era Raptors is just sad.
Josh Smith
1. Ed was on him most of the night not Amir
2. Smith was getting to his sweet spots with Ed trying to guard and stop him.
3. Smith was hot
4. Bargnani would have done a lot better job guarding Smith away from the basket than Ed did.
Smith does not usually shoot that well on his jump shots. The bigger long term problem in my opinion was DeMar not being able to slow down an aging Joe Johnson. DeMar was simply bad last night on both sides of the ball.
Even before Andrea went down with his injury DeMar was shooting well below his career average despite his 3FG% being up.
DeMar at this point is more a problem than a solution.
He is still an investment
if you consider where he was picked, I would say he is on track
So…you’re saying Ed was the reason the Raptors’ lost?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
As I Said I Think DeMar Was The Reason The Raptors Lost
I don’t agree with whoever is saying Ed was the reason, though the Raptors may have won this game if Andrea was playing.
DeMar wasn’t guarding Joe Johnson. He got switched on him at times, but his man was Marvin based on Casey’s planning last night.
Not that DeMar did anything well, but don’t think he was the sole reason the team lost.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Listen To the Casey Post Game Inteview
Casey seemed to think that DeMar was supposed to be guarding Joe Johnson When i say supposed to I mean he didn’t do a very good job at it but was responsible for guarding Joe Johnson
Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
DeMar’s play was the main (not sole) reason that the Raptors lost last night
no I am saying DD was not picked 1st
and he is not a finished product at 22 yo (or 21)
I like DeRozan and think he's a keeper
but I’m begining to wonder if he’ll be an all star calibre type of player. If not then that’s fine but we need to go out and acquire one on the wing.
+1
I was captain of the DeMar the All Star club at the end of last season…
Repeatedly foresaw him coming into greatness in a year or two at the most…
But this season he’s really shit the bed so far… I am worried his only road to the All Star game may be continued entry in the Dunk Contest… now and in the future…
Fingers crossed…
"the Truth"
*Homer alert*
Nah, he’s just waiting to break out until after his first big extension, leaving cap space for the Raps to get better players rather than signing him to an early max contract.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
A Serious Question
Will you trade DD for a mid-1st round pick of 2012?
Depends On Who The Pick Is
However, I would not do a blind trade of DeMar for the right to pick #15.
At this point it looks like if we could trade DeMar for an expiring vet and a first rounder yes...
By the trade deadline, who knows?
Maybe that’s asking too much, maybe too little…
But as of this morning’s coffee I would want a first round pick and an expiring…
"the Truth"
Too Blind A Trade For Me
There are not of highly regarding SG in the upcoming June draft.
I would not do a blind DeMar trade for a draft pick under and circumstances except for a top five pick which the Raptors would not get for him. Anything below that is too risky.
I am not ready to give Demar away for an unknown and an expiring contract.
agree with Buddah
I would only trade DeMar on draft night for a late lottery pick IF there was a specific player we really wanted.
Let’s not forget the days of Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Joey Graham, Jalen Rose, Antwoine Wright, Mo pete, Marco Belinelli, Devean George, Jasdon Kapono, HEDO etc etc. I’m not in a hurry to get rid of a young, high flying, 22yr old wing. I’m all for keeping DD unless who we’re getting in return is clearly better and makes the team clearly better.
Would anyone swap him for OJ Mayo?
I would – better fit for the Raps I think.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
trade for a 1st rounder – yes
trade for mayo – yes
trade for batum – yes
by TFC Academy on Jan 17, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Not Quite Sure I Agree
1. Wouldn’t trade for blind fist round pick only a top five blind pick
2. Mayo – I am not so sure. Maybe is a younger version of Barbosa and a lot more effective coming in off the bench
3. Batum – Depends. You fill one hole the SF and create another one at SG just as deep as the SF slot is now if not deeper. Trading for Batum would depend on who BC could get to fill the applicable hole after the trade or maybe even before.
Not that I think Mayo’s a stud – but DeMar’s been so bad that I’m wondering if a solid bench upgrade even, would be preferable. Not saying yea or nay here, just some food for thought.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 17, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Agree
This one is open to debate and has been for a while.
For me it is too hard to call. If the Raptors had say an all-star SG then I think I would tend to go with Mayo coming off the bench rather than DeMar. However, as a starter I am not so sure. Not saying I would be against it but just not sure enough to take a position on it when it comes to a starting SG.
1. I’d be OK with a late lottery pick as this draft seems to be very deep.
2. I see your point, personally I like mayo as he can really shoot the ball and create from the dribble..
3. Batum can easily fit at both SG and SF positions: he has the size and quickness to guard virtually any wing player, and he’s a reliable knock down shooter with 3-point range. I think Batum would have no problem playing with – for example – Barnes or MKG…
by TFC Academy on Jan 17, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
I highly doubt Portland would trade Batum straight up for DD especially since Roy is finished. I mean we might as well say Kobe would fit in better here.
you're probably right
though Portland seem unsure about Batum’s contract extension, and DD still has good value on the market – for now. So who knows…
If You Want To Play Batum At The SG Spot
which I hadn’t thought about I would swap out DeMar for Batum. Of course as others have said there is not a very good chance of Portland making this trade without other pieces thrown in.
DeRozan for Batum and swap 2012 first round draft picks would maybe work if Portland had a first round pick in 2012. They traded it to Charlotte and while it is protected this season that is only through #14 which means most likely Charlotte will get to use the pick in June.
not a fan of his game
I find him undersized and physically not as strong as you’d want for a wing. Off the bench he’d be good tho but I’d stick it out with DD unless we get a much better player. Is Mayo much better? IDK.
Right now, it looks like I would swap him for a number of rookies even...
Iman Shumpert, Norris Cole, Marshon Brooks, Chris Singleton…
I want to keep the faith, but he’s losing me with his attitude and funk he’s in…
"the Truth"
Interesting
In terms of production, some of these rookies are actually providing the same, if not more than DD right now.
I think the question has be to answered by how much faith you have in DD to improve next year and beyond when JV, next year’s pick and the core of the team improve together.
When we have more quality players in the team, I see DD production will be better as less pressure is on him. But I don’t see him being the elite wing we will need for this team.
To be an effective wing, you need to have one of the following, if not more than one
1. You can shoot very well (picking the right shot, high )
2. You can drive very well (good at drawing contact, good FT, can finish)
3. You can defend very well
I suppose DD can do well in 1 and 2, but fact is he is regressing this year in both. (I know he shoot better in 3s, but he is not as good in mid-range this year).
Now, should we sell him when he is still known as a good wing with high potential to the league? Or should we keep him and hope he can turn to what we hope for?
His contract talk could come up very soon…
Regardless of his offensive woes lately...
DeMar does not have good reaction time and it seriously exposes him on defence against any player with a quick first step…
Watching more closely on defence I actually consider DeMar more deserving of Jose’s “Pylon” nickname… he gets left flat footed and slack jawed WAY too much…
"the Truth"
You Can Learn How To Move Your Feet Faster
on defense though what you have is pretty much what you are going to have going forward.
What DeMar should be able to do is get stronger and be able to learn to better read what the offense is doing including the player he is guarding.
All players have strong tendencies one way or the other regarding a number of aspects of their offense. You have to learn those and be able to force the player to play to their weakness. If DeMar can get stronger and develop a higher basketball IQ on defense he should be able to compensate for the lack of a good responsive first step on defense.
The key is being able to force the player you are guarding to do what you want him to. To be pro-active and to have to not have to respond to the offensive player’s moves all or most of the time.
I agree, defence is highly cerebral...
But reflexes are hard to develop, that’s one area that DeMar is noticeably handicapped…
Instincts can be honed through training, repetition and preparation and I hope that he can work and develop enough to balance out his slow response time…
You don’t have to react as fast to a first step if you were already accurately predicting which way your man was most likely to go… it isn’t easy, but if it were they wouldn’t get paid so much right?
Like I said, as one of his biggest supporters, fingers crossed…
"the Truth"
I think he may learn to become an average or even above average defender...
Against guys with one or two “pet moves”…
He will never be able to shut down a guy like Kobe with his vast array of moves…
But against guys with one or two favourite moves? He should be able to excel just based on hard work…
"the Truth"
Not sure why the % is gone...
1. You can shoot very well (picking the right shot, high percentage)
2. You can drive very well (good at drawingcontact, good FT percentage, can finish)
DeMar is much better suited to last season's faster-paced squad...
He isn’t as comfortable or as effective in a slower half-court tempo…
His fast-breaks helped his % last year as open dunks are hard to miss for him…
This year he is struggling to find his place in a half-court game…
I’m not surprised by the downturn in his game considering the style change, but it also concerns me that he may never be the right “fit” for this teams slower, defence-first approach moving forward…
"the Truth"
Defense First and Slower Offense Don't Necessarily Go Together
There is or at least was some pretty good video of this from decades ago with Tark’s Running Rebels. His best teams pressed like crazy and ran a total up tempo game on offense.
Of course there is a big difference between predominately pressing defense and a pack em one however once Jonas comes if the Raptors play (notice I didn’t say start him) Jonas alongside Amir then Amir will be able to get out and run like he used to be able to do when he played with Reggie and even Bosh.
The problem is that Amir is fastest on the fast break of all the Raptors Bigs but he also happens to be stuck playing Center which is not the position you want a key fast break guy playing. Bargnani is too slow to get out on the fast break. The problem with Center trying to be your main Big on the fast break are not only is that player very often closest to the basket when a shot goes up but he also has to run through traffic to get out on the break.
Also none of the Raptors SF are really suited that well for the fast break. JJ can run but he can’t shoot so he nullifies the pull up jump shot possibility on the fast break as does Amir.
You put someone like say a Batum or Harrison Barnes at SF along with Jonas and Amir and you will get plenty of opportunities for fast break points even with the same defense that the Raptors are now using
Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris Norris
COOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooOooOoOOoOOOOOoooLE
"the Truth"
I could see Barbosa moving into the starting lineup until Bargnani returns...
Give DeMar a shakeup, maintain scoring from the starting five…
DeMar and Forbes could fast break a little more than Jose does so DeMar presumably would get some confidence points…
DeMar in the second unit would be paired with say Forbes, James Johnson, Ed Davis… defensively capable of initiating more fast breaks than the first unit does…
"the Truth"
Barbosa along with Jose would limit his turnovers as he wouldn't have to bullrush so much...
"the Truth"
It doesn’t exactly work that way at the end of games when they are on the floor together a lot of the time. Barbosa is Barbosa and you live and die with how he plays.
True enough...
But then again, Bargnani was Bargnani, until he became this current anti-Bargnani…
lol, no I don’t think Barbosa would ever truly change his ways, just that he also is proficient at slashing to the basket and coming off screens without the ball…
He can still be Barbosa and fit very well… he just has to be more “off ball” Barbosa than “Ballhandler” Barbosa and he is more effective / efficient…
I think when he is relied on heavily for his ball handling skills he pushes too much…
It’s like locking a child inside a candy store for their own good while you run out for the mail… Too much temptation…
At least alongside Jose he wouldn’t have the ball in his hands so much in the first place…
"the Truth"
No Bayless?
You must just have forgotten about him, eh?
Stating The Obvious
Bargnani might return Wed so what was the point of writing
I could see Barbosa moving into the starting lineup until Bargnani returns…
The logical conclusion is that you have some insider information about when Bargnani will return and it won’t be Wednesday.
Wow, didn’t know you were an insider. Impressive LOL
Perhaps he was simply assuming people would apply logic and reasoning to their thinking and would come to the conclusion that, while Bargnani MIGHT return Wednesday, he MIGHT not, and if that scenario were to occur, he could see Barbosa moving into the starting lineup until Bargnani did in fact return.
But that was probably a stupid assumption on Mik’s part.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I seem to recall reports that Kleiza was going to return and dress for games 4 games before he actually did...
Maybe when dealing in maybes I maybe was talking about what may be…
"the Truth"
He could have, but everyone here except one person understood it as is, so the only reason he would have to write it out as fully and awkwardly as that would be to pander to you.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 18, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
p.s. As someone who can actually own up to making a mistake or overlooking something...
My mindset was that Andrea ISN’T in the lilneup as I was writing this and I gave no consideration to whether or not there were even any games that would occur before he was ready…
I simply thought: “With the personnel exactly as it is right now, this would be my game time decision…” I didn’t think about whether the next game would see Andrea fit or not… But the point YOU harped on Buddha, was that I was forgetting Bayless, which I wasn’t as I was confident in there being at least a few more games before HIS return…
"the Truth"
The logical conclusion is that you have some insider information about when Bargnani will return and it won’t be Wednesday.
Wow, didn’t know you were an insider. Impressive LOL
by Buddahfan</blockquote
Which has what to do about forgetting Bayless?
Your issue with my post was that I forgot about Bayless, how does that have anything to do with Bargnani’s expected return?
"the Truth"
So Buddha, since OBVIOUSLY you're talking about Wednesday night's game...
Stating The Obvious
Bargnani might return Wed
How am I forgetting about Bayless? Unless you have some insider information that he is going to indeed be playing Wednesday?
I didn’t know you were an insider, impressive…LOL
"the Truth"
Has anybody else taken a step back and been dumbfounded by the fact...
… that there are SIX worse teams than the Raptors right now?
Even with the injury situation here?
SIX worse teams blows my mind… that is some terrible basketball product on the market…
The NBA better think up some way of making it up to fans…
or not…
We’re all suckers and aren’t going anywhere anyways… lol
"the Truth"
have you seen....
the pistons roster? that maybe the worst put together team in the last 30 years in the nba. I AM DEAD SERIOUS!
Daye, Prince, Villanueva all play the same style and look the same!
Stuckey, Gordon and Bynum are all shoot first pgs that are under sized, and BG is the only one who can shoot.
YET….they still have huge contract commitements to BG, CV, Stuckey, CV. Dumars is trying to get fired.
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