RaptorsHQ Rapid Recap - Atlanta Hawks 93 - Toronto Raptors 84
by Adam Francis on Jan 16, 2012 7:00 PM EST
in Raptors Rapid Recap - 2010/11
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-For the third straight game, the Toronto Raptors fought and clawed at their more talented adversary but could not close things out. In previous losses to Indiana and Chicago we saw the team struggle in the fourth quarter, and this afternoon was deja-vu all over again, as the Dinos scored only 13 fourth quarter points en route to a 93 to 84 loss.
-Even though the Raps had no answer for Josh Smith (28 points on 13 of 19 shooting to go with 15 rebounds) and Joe Johnson abused his defenders to the tune of 27 himself, Toronto kept this one fairly close, repeatedly overcoming 10 point deficits to cut the lead to a couple baskets. Leading the hustle was the tandem of Ed Davis and Amir Johnson, who between them grabbed half the team's rebounds (21 of 42) and made a number of plays to keep Toronto's hopes at a W alive.
-But all the hustle in the world couldn't overcome Toronto's offensive woes, especially late in the game. After shooting over 50 per cent from the field at the half, the club slowly stopped making shots and by the time the fourth quarter was nearly done, the club's FG% had sunk to 42 per cent. How bad was it? Well, it took a good five minutes for the Raps to hit their first field goal of the quarter and after that the club only converted on five of its shots, and failed to get to the free-throw line.
-Indeed it's pretty tough to win games with stats like that, and even tougher when again, your supposed go-to guy is invisible. DeMar DeRozan finished with a measly 10 points on horrific 5 of 17 shooting, and his only "stand-out" moment was the technical he needlessly picked up in the second half. Leandro Barbosa had his third straight big game scoring-wise with 22, but it was not enough to counter-balance the shooting of DeRozan, Linas Kleiza, Rasual Butler and Gary Forbes, who went a combined 10 of 35.
-The Raps now head to Boston to face the Celtics on Wednesday night and while the C's haven't exactly looked like their usual selves, this game won't be an easy one by any stretch of the imagination and here's hoping that Andrea Bargnani, James Johnson and Jerryd Bayless are ready to return.
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Barbosa
I wonder if he keeps playing well if we can’t trade him for a low first round pick? To a team that is built to win now and doesn’t need the draft pick. Boston springs to mind but I am not sure he fits their system. They did try to play with Nate for a while and to me Leandro is the same type of player and just as quick, but a lot taller and better. They need the energy for their second unit, but Leandro will have to pass more to fit in.
I think the time to trade him is now. If I am off on the value, maybe we can trade him for a second round pick. The draft is so deep we may be able to find a diamond in the rough. Holding on to him for the season doesn’t really make sense to me. Bayless should get his minutes/opportunity or has Hedo would say, “Ball”
Barnes or Kidd-Gilchrist? Let’s watch closely to see which one we should pick. Unless we have a clear #1 pick and someone rises to the top and we get first choice. Watch the next 10 games. We have one we should win and that team is looking at their schedule and thinking we are one of the few games they can win. It could be a brutal stretch but hang in there folks.
2012-2013 Toronto will be the youngest team in the league, and they will be in the playoffs
I would love to see Barbosa dealt for a pick.
With DeRozan struggling, I would not be against starting Barbosa at the 2 for a while to pump up his value and to give DeRozan the kick in the ass that I think he needs.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 16, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Some Good Signs
1. Ed played a lot better
2. Amir is starting to show some of his offensive moves. Too bad he got a charge on that one handed shot in the lane wiping out one of his better offensive moves of the season.
Honestly I hope Bargnani is out for another week or two. Amir is just now starting to show some offense and while he still has a long way to go to get back to what I have seen him do he is moving in that direction. I would love to see Andrea miss another couple of weeks so Amir can continue to bring back his all too many seasons missing offense.
If he can get enough of it back and start playing more like he is capable of offense before Andea returns he might keep some of his instinctual offense and not go back to the way he was. Not that I want the Raptors to lose but in the long run if Amir can get back to the way he used to be on offense playing with more aggressiveness and instinct it will hep the Raptors in the long run. 13 points on 9 FGA not too shabby, not great but pretty good.
Third Double Double Of The Season
Now at 8.6 PPG , 8.2 RPG and 1.5 APG
Ed’s situation is kind of odd. Last year the Raptors sucked so badly on defense that Davis was seen as a young savior who could do the thing we needed most. But this year we are playing much better D but and it is our offense that is abysmally bad. We really need him scoring more than 8 points a game, especially filling in for Bargnani.
couldn't watch the game
and that’s a shame because that was at a decent 10PM here in italy.
sounds like DeMar had another of his uninspiring games, how was his defence though? was he guarding Joe Johnson?
I’m really starting to question DeMar’s role in the future of this team, and actually wouldn’t mind considering a trade if the opportunity arises…
It Is Interesting
DeMar is now shooting about 40% from the field the worst of his short career.
DeMar played a ton of lockout basketball
Flip Saunders recently said that he thinks too much lockout ball had a negative affect on John Wall’s game. Saunders went on to say is that he thinks Wall picked some bad habits playing too much lockout ball. Saunders has been criticized for this but he is one coach who as a former PG is well versed in the technical aspects of playing PG correctly. He also coached Billups during Billups prime.
So I have to wonder if DeMar has picked up some bad habits playing too much lockout ball and it is affecting his game. Guys on offense in lockout ball don’t face too much defense.
DeMar seems to have lost something. I am not sure what it is but Saunders may be on to something
Unfortunately i do not think it is that simple. DD started the season off well and has fallen off a cliff. His confidence is shot and he is playing tentatively which is not going to help him. Maybe he needs a change of scenario though I do not envision a lot of deals for him that will net his talent level back so ………….
I Agree His Confidence Does Look Lacking
I wonder if the Raptors have a shrink on staff?
We used to have to many shooters. Now its seems we have a lack. Davis still needs a post game or a jumper from short range. At least get mad and try jumping over someone. He seems to show a lack of emotion that is reminicent of bargnani in his early days. Derozan cant be counted on for hitting an open jumper with ease or rising his game up when the games on the line. I am afraid he may be the next Gerald Green. I hope he can go back to what he was last season when he was attacking and getting to the line at good rate. Amir is a grinder with a touch around the basket. Gotta love the hard work he shows night in night out. I am actually looking forward to Bayless coming back.
by VancouverIslandRapsFan on Jan 16, 2012 8:32 PM EST reply actions
Hmmmmmm...
The last couple of seasons we could score no problem but could not defend worth a damn. This season we can defend but can’t score worth a damn. Maybe we should have spliced Dwayne Casey and Jay Triano together and made a super coach. All kidding aside, it is frustrating that we can’t seem to find a coach who can coach both sides of the court. Though Casey does only have 14 games under his belt, perhaps I’m jumping the gun a bit.
I’ve always thought that Demar had a fragile ego and he seems to be really showing it this season. Not a good characteristic in your starting SG. When things are going great he seems to fire on all cylinders. The second he misses a couple of shots, he seems to get down way to quickly. Whether he likes it or not he is going to have to drive to the basket. Otherwise he is going to continue to disappear in games. He is not a top tier shooting guard and I don’t think he ever will be. He does not have the versatility most of the top tier SG/SFs have. Someone made the comment during the game thread that Bosh never got the respect in the paint from the refs early in his career but he kept driving until he finally did. I doubt Demar has the same determination.
Who would have thought we would miss Bargs so much?
Part Of DeMar's Problem
other than possibly what I posted above is that ISTM that DeMar
1. Has trouble reading defenses, especially good ones in order to get open for a jumper or drive.
2. His motor is not that good. Maybe average.
3. He is not very strong. Those are three of characteristics that a good SG needs to be successful at a high level on offense.
Casey on O
Hold up. Before you make comments about how he can’t coach the offence, make sure you know what you are talking about. He came in to a team with a huge lack of talent and no defence. In about a month he turned the team into a respectable defensive team from formerly being a joke.
We are in every game playing hard. Our number 1 scorer is hurt and our #2 scorer can’t score right now and you blame Casey. Pff. He can coach O and D. He is just starting on D because D wins championships. In Casey we trust.
It’s actually amazing what he has been able to get out of his guys. For the first time I can remember we are one of the hardest working teams in the NBA and we have very little depth to the point where we don’t even have a starting 3 calibre player and only have one legitimate PG. Still we have been in every game and played well.
Don’t worry about the losses. Look at how we have played and how the culture and system have changed.
by defensive rap on Jan 16, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
The Culture Was Beginning To Change Before Casey Became Coach
The biggest change has been in Bargnani but I haven’t noticed anyone else playing harder including Ed. Who knows why Bargnani is more motivated this season though I would suggest moving to him to PF has helped motivate him. This is no culture change.
What Casey has done is put in a good defensive system anchored by Amir rather than Bargnani in the middle.
Changing the culture to work harder as a team. I don’t see it at all. Last season the Raptors battled in many games all the way into the fourth quarter only to lose because of lack of experience and less talent.
Its great that the team has a motto #poundtherock and I am sure that will help them stay focused.
But to me saying that Casey has come in and changed the “culture” and not realizing that what he has changed a lot more is installing a good defense is just not seeing what is happening and buying into something that makes Raptors fans feel good.
1. He has done a very good job with the Raptors defense
2. He has done little with the Raptors effort and culture. The culture that has changed is the Raptors now have a coach who knows how to coach defense.
3. The fallacy of his offense “this is not a democracy” is now being exposed as flawed. It is flawed because by not spreading the wealth around on offense when Bargnani goes out the offense stalls and players that are playing are now asked to all of sudden score .
In addition the Raptors guards dribble way to much. There is no where enough ball movement. It is too much the PG dribbles and finds a man who shoots rather than making a third or fourth pass before a shot goes up.
Let Me Clarify One Thing
Some people consider being a better defensive coach than the previous coaches as a culture change. In that case I would agree that Casey has changed the culture but I don’t see any change in effort by the whole team.
Increased effort on the defensive end keeping opponents to almost under 90 points a game has to be considered a huge culture change. A culture where defensive effort is congratulated. Where a block, positioning, taking a charge rates over getting the ball up to score in under 60 seconds. Yes the offense is lacking, maybe from less energy left from the defensive end. The sets on O to dont seem different then last year.
by VancouverIslandRapsFan on Jan 16, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
the Raps improved D
has alot to do with their pace. Don’t get me wrong they have drastically improved in many areas, but they still sit at a mediocre 16th in Drating. But a slower pace allows guys to get in position, to cover the right guys etc.
But I do believe the offense is lacking because of the slow pace. This team is devoid of talent but full of athleticism, and in that case teams are best served to run. But running would kill the pace Casey wants to play at and I almost guarantee would drop the defense to bottom 5(ish) level.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
So you are saying that the incompetent Triano was coaching the team based on the personnel while the smart Casey is trying to fit square pegs in round holes? Yes, only in Raptor land can the crazy be considered geniuses.
I think Triano was coaching
based on demands from above
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 6:57 AM EST up reply actions
True but my point was everyone threw Triano under the bus at the beginning of the season and yet I cannot imagine the team having a much worse record with him as coach. Granted, I think we are all a lot happier about how the team is losing but their record is probably not that much different.
oh I don't disagree
and I think Jay’s problem was just as much with a lack of talent as Casey’s is. I do not think we ever got a complete read on Jay as a coach.
That said, one has to see what Casey’s done in terms of changing the teams approach so drastically. He has given up offense for defense and he has everyone trying every night…. which is something we haven’t had in years.
I don’t think Jay was anything special as a coach, but I don’t think he was quite as bad as Casey is making him look either. I think BC’s expectations/demands played a big role hamstringing Jay. But with a young team and guys that grew in a certain mold a change of pace (both figuratively and literally) have been a good thing.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
They sit 16th in DRTG compared to 30th last year. DRTG almost entirely removes the direct influence of pace, leaving only the secondary effects. It seems to me more that Casey’s 4-men-back scheme has more to do with setting up the defense than whatever effects pace might have.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
they go hand in hand
teams go 4 men back (so to speak) to help control the pace (prevent the opponents from running). As do they ‘not run’ on offense to make it easier to have the team run back on defense (ie. a more controlled offense).
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
Not running on offense doesn’t help with getting back on defense. It is more tied to reducing offensive rebounds and easy second chance points. A well designed fast break offense should have no effect on transition defense – it is only when players aren’t running the fast break correctly that they end up out of position for the return fast break.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree
we’ve seen time and time again teams that ‘run’ alot on offense have a harder time playing defense. Teams that play slowly on offense have an easier time playing defense.
This is mainly a positional thing where alot of running on offense puts you out of position on D. In theory you SHOULD be able to do both (run on offense but keep a slow paced defense) but in reality one leads into another.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
If You Run On Offense
you exert more energy than if you walk the ball up the court. When you use more energy on offense you have less available for defense.
Not saying I disagree with your statement which I don’t but just adding another variable into the equation.
Putting A Bulked Up Strong Amir In the Middle On Defense
has been the cause of the change as much as anything along with adding a tough Jamaal to back him up.
Players are loath to go to the rim and challenge Amir. There were a number of plays yesterday where one of the Hawks was about to attack the basket looked up and saw Amir standing there and quickly changed their mind. Not the first game this has happened . With Jamaal there in there opposing players are also afraid of the pain.
The Raptors lead the league in fewest points in paint allowed per game as opposed to last season when they gave up the most points in the paint per game.
Yes some of that is due to a slower pace but most of it is due to Casey’s change in defensive scheme and much stronger Amir now at Center along with Jamaal backing him up.
That certainly helps – of course, it is hard to separate the effects of putting Amir in the middle, putting Bargnani at PF, the new system, etc, as they were all applied coincidentally.
As for points in the paint… it is true they are very good this year – they are 2nd in the league in PIP per possession this year (just behind Dallas and just ahead of Miami). But again, there is no certain way to prove that this is due to Amir or the system or some combination of the two.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Watch The Games Again
and picture again the games from last season
Both Andrea and Reggie were pretty bad in allowing points in the paint at least on first chance points. There were many times last season when that became a virtual sieve. Not the case this season with Amir and Jamaal in playing at Center.
I Think It Is Both
A bulked up Amir at Center vs Andrea and the defensive system.
As to which is more responsible I leave that to the "anal"ysts. LOL
Devoid Of Talent?
Please explain such an extreme opinion.
What Is Keeping Opponents FG% Down
are
1. Amir in the middle instead of Andrea. Amir is rarely challenged by penetrating guards and even often Bigs. Evidently he has laid enough pain on people with his added muscle that players don’t want the hurt. Yes the Raptors are playing at a slower pace but the scoring across the league is down. Check out last nights Lakers – Mavs game.
2. The rotations on defense now look a lot more like NBA rotations than when Triano was the coach.
Like I said many would consider going from an offensive orientated team to a defensive oriented team a culture change. I can see that.
However, I don’t see much improvement or change in attitude and effort among the players as a whole. Accept maybe at the very end after Amir was shut down the Raptors played very hard also last season. This was mentioned a lot last year. So other than Bargnani I don’t see more effort being expended. I don’t see a change in attitude among the players other than Bargnani.
There is certainly support for the Amir supposition – the opponents’ eFG% is 43% with him on the court, and 48% with him off. Of course, with his increased effort in challenging shots, the team’s rebounding is slipping with him on the court – going from 73% defensive rebounding rate to 65%. And he as ever is helping on the offensive glass.
Bargnani, oddly enough, seems to have little impact on the defense being played – the opponent’s eFG% is exactly the same with him on and off the court. But there are a lot less fouls called against the Raps when he is playing, and so the DRTG of the team drops quite a bit when he is on the floor.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
But there are a lot less fouls called against the Raps when he is playing,
Source please
I am not saying you are wrong but I would like to see a source for that that shows the actual numbers. It would be a good source to bookmark LOL
http://www.82games.com/1112/11TOR12.HTM#onoff
If you look at his on/off-court values for “Free Throws Attempted by Opp.” and total minutes you’ll see what I mean.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 17, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
defensive rap
“Though Casey does only have 14 games under his belt, perhaps I’m jumping the gun a bit.”
That sentence right there, we in fact me “holding up”.
Is this a win .... or a loss
If I was to round up a few opinions, I could argue either way.
- a win in the sense we’re one spot closer to never-never-land .. aka .. the draft that’ll save us.
- a win in the sense that if Barbosa keeps this up, his stock value could peak near the trading deadline.
- a loss if you simply count
- a loss if you’re surprised Ed is experiencing growing pains.
- a win if you see Amir, and think … this is one part to a Contender. Raptors have gone from dead last for opponent scoring in the paint, to currently 13th. And on Raptor scoring, we’ve gone from 23rd, to today’s 12th. http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/12/4/pts/1-1
- a loss if you wonder why Butler is here.
- a win if you see Jose, and see (future) Contender back-up qualities. Someone who can step into the place of that Star PG, when he goes down for a few. Especially in the play-offs.
In an odd sort of way, I enjoyed this game – despite how I hate to lose. I do have concerns about Demar, but hopefully when Andrea returns, it will take some stress off DD. Right now, Demar – as 1st option – has a greater focus from opponents. He’ll need to figure that out – as Andrea experienced last year. That, and he needs to take some Italian advice from Andrea (for not getting foul calls) … just fugetaboutit. Being a d!ckhead doesn’t ingrate oneself with authority. If Demar figures that out, he’ll start to get them there calls – more.
.
As for Davis …. meh.
Struggles are part of the game, as well as character builders. A guy like Dirk knew last year how time was running out. Almost being there helps motivate. Whether you’re young or old in this league, losing (or faltering) helps. Give Ed more strength, and he finishes those <2 footers.
The Culture Was Beginning To Change Before Casey Became Coach
>
The biggest change has been in Bargnani but I haven’t noticed anyone else playing harder including Ed.
If you mean by culture was changing, when BC called out Andrea, then yeah. Maybe on a technical side, but ……. IMO, culture changed somewhere during the first 10 games. Pictures were being drawn – in case sitting more often on the bench wasn’t a hint – while minutes were being allocated by desire/effort – with a dash of we need some scoring.
As for “I haven’t noticed anyone else playing harder " , I beg to differ. To me, Amir is demonstrating a more useful presence – even if his scoring stats haven’t jumped. Amir is part of the reason Raptors Bigs are giving us a chance of winning – despite the absence of serious talent. Andrea`s move to PF may not only have created a better AB, it may have changed the nature of AJ`s game – for the better.
.
If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.
I might buy your argument about Demar if his game wasn’t already struggling before Andrea went down.
Spotlight
I realize DD has been sluggish prior to Bargnani’s injury, but with Andrea out, it becomes more difficult for Demar. The focus is on him – as 1st option – to produce. Defenses will key in on him, making this slump even harder to disengage.
Andrea coming back can help take some of the pressure away. Especially as defenses are aware of AB’s 3 pt game – which helps open the lanes.
.
If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 17, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
on top of that
he has been out for three games and some of the usual suspect are talking themselves into his irrelevance :)
or converseley
some of the usual suspects are talking themselves into his importance :)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions
didn't know
how to put in writing the different pronunciations
despite the absence of serious talent.
Almost every player in the NBA, with a couple of rare exceptions has serious basketball talent or they wouldn’t be playing in the elite basketball league in the world
Now if you want to say relative talent such as in “The Raptors talent level is relatively lower than the playoff teams in the league” that sounds a lot more accurate to me.
I think in a forum devoted to talking about the NBA, I’d assume talking about anything here is related to relative measures at the NBA level. I could beat up on most (notice I said most) 10 year olds on the bball court. But uhh.. talented? Even I’ll nix that.
Read The Quote Again
despite the absence of serious talent.
Putting the adjective “serious” in the statement before “talent” negates the concept of relative.
seriously budda?
I think its fair to assume we are comparing NBA talent against other NBA talent and not a bunch of random guys off the street.
I’m completely wondering the sanity of bothering to explain that and having to clarify that.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Learn The English Language
Not that I am that good at it (LOL), but in this case adding the word “serious” in front of the word “talent” eliminates the grammatical notion of relativity in the statement.
For Example
If you say. Toronto is having a serious snow storm today, I doubt too many people would be thinking. “Toronto is having a serious snow storm today relative to Los Angeles”
I can't believe I'm responding to this
but its a matter of context. Clearly we are discussing on a blog whose focus is the NBA.
You are taking a statement to literally.
I’m wasting time bothering with this.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 17, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly, you would think that it is a serious storm relative to what Toronto is getting, and we wouldn’t think LA.
So.. a serious lack of talent in an NBA forum would be relative to the NBA vs Euro League or High School.
So.. a serious lack of talent in an NBA forum would be relative to the NBA vs Euro League or High School.I think you just illustrated the point perfectly.
The point is by adding "serious" to talent he infers that they obviously have talent...
As all players who make it to the NBA must… but to have SERIOUS talent is the next step up, the “playoff” talent you are talking about…
So him using the term “serious talent” identifies that he concedes they have talent, just not playoff talent/serious talent/elite talent whatever…
So you guys agree, but you pick a fight anyways… typical…
"the Truth"
Points In The Paint and Rebounding
The Raptors are +1.5 differential this season in Points In The Paint
Last season they were a -2.3 differential in Points In The Paint.
That is an improvement of +3.8 differential in Points In The Paint
The Raptors are a +0.3 in Rebounds per Game differential
Last season they were a -0.8 in Rebounds per Game differential
That is an improvement of +1.1 differential in Rebounds per Game.
So not only have the Raptors improved their Points In The Paint and Rebounds per Game differentials but they have both gone from both being negative to both being positive.
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