3 in the Key - Raptors' Game-Day Preview vs Hawks
by Sasha Kalra on Jan 16, 2012 8:45 AM EST
in 3 in the Key
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PrintWith THAT loss to the Bulls in the rear-view mirror, the Raptors head into Atlanta to play the dangerous Hawks. The HQ's Sasha Kalra weighs in on the action...
The Raptors are in the midst of a 3 game road trip and head into Phillips Arena for an early tip-off against the Atlanta Hawks.
Both teams are without their star big men but its become quite clear which is better equipped to deal with their respective injury woes. The Hawks are 2-0 without Al Horford and will look to keep on rolling today. They haven't faced the toughest opposition the league has to offer yet but their bench and team have come together to power through his absence. On the other hand, the Raptors haven't won a game since Andrea Bargnani went down and they are missing his presence on the floor.
Toronto is also dealing with some other injuries suddenly as Saturday night James Johnson rolled his ankle running down the court. He joined a growing list of inactive players and the mounting list is fast becoming a major headache for Dwane Casey.
The Dinos will be looking to bounce back from their fourth straight loss and here are some things they have to do to right the ship. These keys are predictably associated with scoring the ball, something the team's had major issues doing this season. While I'd love to see them break out of their funk tonight, it's hard to be overly optimistic and after last time out can you blame me?
1) Get to the Line:
The Raptors only attempted a pathetic 11 free throws against the Bulls. That's somewhat understandable given how great of a defensive team they are. The bad part? The team only made 1 of those 7 attempts. Andrea Bargnani was leading the team in FTA and a team that was already terrible in that department has regressed even further. In order to beat the Hawks the Raptors need to do a better job of getting and converting easy scoring opportunities and that starts by getting to the charity stripe.
2) Move the Ball:
The Raptors have been at their best in recent years when moving the ball on offense and turning good scoring chances into great scoring chances. The Raps are near the bottom of the league in team assists per game and no player outside of Jose Calderon is averaging over 2 assists per match. Scoring against an athletic team like the Hawks will require the team to manufacture easy looks, especially if the jump shots aren't falling. Also, here's hoping that Casey runs Gary Forbes at the back-up PG spot some more as his play helped facilitate motion with the second group. Even if it WAS only motion to Leandro Barbosa before he chucked it up.
3) Defend the Long Ball:
As a team the Hawks shoot 38.6% from deep, good enough for 5th in the league. Guys like Joe Johnson, Jeff Teague, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith and the token "I didn't know he was still in the NBA" player that someone ends up on every team, Vladmir Radmanovic, can all stroke it from long rage. Closing out on shooters is going to be crucial when defending the Hawks potent offense and it could end up being the difference in the game as it so often has when these clubs meet.
Sasha Kalra
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I gotta ask
“the Raptors haven’t won a game since Andrea Bargnani went down and they are missing his presence on the floor.”
Have the Raps really missed Andrea that much? The Raps played, what are right now anyways, the best an (tied for) 3rd best teams in the NBA. The competed well in both games, coming down to the last 30 secs or so against Indiana and (as Budda pointed out) gave the Bulls their biggest challenge at home this year.
Would Andrea having been there made a difference? Would Toronto have won either of those games otherwise?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 8:59 AM EST reply actions
It’s an interesting question. I do think though that the two teams in question really played down to the Raps level, and turned it on when it mattered – those scores were closer than the games were. After the 1st Q against the Pacers, the game completely turned around, and the Bulls just decided to win when the 4th quarter started.
I expect Bargnani would not have helped the team win these games – maybe the Pacers game – the overall team talent is just too low even with him in the lineup. Any offensive contribution from Bargs would just have woken those other teams up earlier, in my opinion.
by dhackett1565 on Jan 16, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Is there a point in that comment?
It just sounds really ignorant considering Ed Davis and Amir Johnson combined for 23 points in both games so far wtihout Bargnani, which is Bargnani’s avg for one game.
But I know what a fan you are of advanced statistics, Bargnani is second on the team in WS (Top 40 in NBA), Tops on the team in Per (his per is top 20 in the NBA), still a top 10 scorer in the NBA and he has the second highest simple rating (behind Kleiza). How would he not have helped? He has clearly been our best player on the offensive end (if not overall) but anyone that is reasonable know that this team misses him with the way he has been playing.
whats ignorant about it?
I’m pointing out that Toronto played well, against two of the best teams in the league, without Bargnani. Does Bargnani make all the difference in those games? Were either of those winnable games with Bargnani? Would anyone have thought, prior to the game, that with Bargnani the Raps could have won, or in the case of Chicago, close?
The statement was the Raps were missing his presence. But when you consider the Raps opponents and how the games went… was Bargnani really missed? I mean I know YOU missed him, but did the team?
I also never said he wouldn’t have helped. My exact question was “Have the Raps really missed Andrea that much?”
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
i will spell it out...
Here is a definition for you, The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware.
Obviously you are unaware at the high level Bargnani is playing at, so then that would be ignorant. Its not just my opinion but the numbers that back this up and the general consenus by everyone except you. Heck Bargnani even made an espn top 10 list as surprises of this year.
Would the Heat be better with Bosh or without?
Would the Clippers be better with Griffin or without?
Would the Jazz be better with Milsap or without?
Obviously when you take away a teams top post scorer it hurts them, and you said “have they missed him?” You always miss your top player on the offensive end.
haha
“The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware”
well maybe I’m not the one being ignorant then huh?
Unless ofcourse you believe the outcome of those games would be (significantly) different.
Never did I say Toronto was better or worse with or without Bargnani. Never did I narrow anything down to ‘the offensive end’ (not a suprise thats were this goes ofcourse) I, again, asked “WAS he missed that much”.
Best check your statements and that definition again.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
am i missing something...
What am I being ignorant about?
You said have they missed them? I said any team missing their top players on the offensive end. Do I believe Andrea would of helped us on the offensive end in both games?
Considering Amir, Ed, Magloire, Johnson, Kleiza (all people who may play anytime at the 4/5) combined for a staggering 27 points, in 101 minutes, on 36% shooting. So do I believe Andrea would of been a factor in that game? ABSOLUTELY!
From the same 5 against the Pacers we got 18 points, in 104 minutes, on 30% shooting. So do I believe Andrea would of helped us on offence that game? ABSOLUTELY! For the record that is 5 less points in three times the minutes.
So would he be more efficient, would he help on offence, ABSOLUTELY! Would we have won the games? Who knows but do I believe he would of helped us on offence, only an ignorant person, would asked if he was missed.
So please explain what I am being ignorant about? Your question was, “was he missed”, and I answered it, Yes he was considering how well he has played and how poorly all of other big men have been offensively.
So what statement did I miss?
A Thinner Bargnani At PF Has Been A Plus For the Raptors
Considering that Ed is playing like sheet, losing Andrea has definitely hurt the Raptors, no question about it.
hahaha
you change/misinterpret my question, then proceeded to call me ignorant because of it. What are you being ignorant about? Both the question I asked in the first place and calling my statement ignorant.
Not to bring d-hack into this, but he seemed to be able to understand it well enough.
Thanks for coming out though. Always a treat.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
elaborate then...
what did i miss about this statement?
"the Raptors haven’t won a game since Andrea Bargnani went down and they are missing his presence on the floor."
Have the Raps really missed Andrea that much?
or this one…
Would Andrea having been there made a difference? Would Toronto have won either of those games otherwise?
You asked a question have this missed him?
My answer is yes, while they have competed in both games both games involved very poor production from our post players (I gave facts to prove this point). Would having their best offensive player back have helped this? Yes. Therefore it is safe to reason that the Raptors would of been better offensively if Andrea was playing.
What is ignorant about that logic and reasoning in answering your question? Which again was….Have the Raps missed Andrea that much? By asking that question you ignored how well Andrea has played this season and how poorly our post played, which is considered ignorant or ignoring facts.
Is my reasoning flawed if it is I would love to have it broken so that it is clear where my mistake is, because so far I don’t see one.
Shalax, you guys obviously have a different opinion on what the outcome of the games would have been...
The entire thing comes down to, did they win or lose…
NSFS is saying that even with Andrea, both of the games being talked about would have resulted in losses ANYWAYS… regardless of how good he has been lately, that those two teams both had enough talent and margin for error that even with Andrea, they would have still been able to turn it up and crank out a win…
So in the overall picture, in NSFS eyes, with or without Andrea, both games were coming up L’s regardless… so he wasn’t missed that much…
"the Truth"
on going battle...
This has been an argument since the summer when several people (him included) were hoping the Raptors would amnesty Bargnani.
Last time these two teams played it was still a 5 point loss for the Raptors. However, the Pacers had the early lead but hte Raptors fought back in that game, and got it down to a one possession game but couldn’t get all the way back. However, at the end of the issue wasn’t the Pacers ‘turning it up’ or taking us for granted. The game was fought hard down to the end. Without Bargnani apparently teams take us for granted as a W and feel that they don’t have to start playing until half time. That was just said by yourself and other people.
So when I answered his question if Andrea was missed? Yeah he was, and he deserves some credit for how well he has played and when a team is missing their best offensive player it si a riduclous question to ask, is he missed?
And I disagree, that no matter how well Andrea may have played in both those games, they were still going to lose...
Neither of us can ever know, because it didn’t happen, so I guess EVERYBODY in the discussion is ignorant of whether or not he would have been missed because there is no way to definitively know… so we are ALL lacking information, and therefore ALL ignorant of the answer…
Welcome to the team…
"the Truth"
haha
To be honest I still think they would of lost, but I feel pretty safe in saying he would of produced better than the bigs we had on the floor.
I never actually said they would of won either of those games if you look back on my comments. Just said they he would of played better than what we had out on the floor. Which given how well he has played and how poorly everyone else in the 4/5 has played isn’t a huge stretch.
The point is, the result that matters, is WIN/LOSS... that's it...
It’s been said by the team repeatedly, from top to bottom, THERE ARE NO MORAL VICTORIES… it’s either a WIN or a LOSS…
So, with regards to the one thing that matters, whether they WON or LOST, you agree Bargnani wouldn’t have made a difference… therefore in the category that matters, he wasn’t missed…
Thanks for finally catching up…
"the Truth"
haha
but to quote….
Neither of us can ever know, because it didn’t happen, so I guess EVERYBODY in the discussion is ignorant of whether or not he would have been missed because there is no way to definitively know… so we are ALL lacking information, and therefore ALL ignorant of the answer…
Welcome to the team…
From not knowing now you know, it only took 5minutes.
Point is mute and while we won’t agree its simple. We are a better team with him than without him. If you exclude the Kings game (was tied at the end of 3 with him playing) we are 4-6 with him and 0-2 without. The only time we get what matters which is Wins, has been with him in the lineup.
So by your reasoning, we are better with him, than without him.
I’m not arguing potential wins or losses because its irrelevant but the simple fact that he is our best offensive player and we are better with him than without him.
true
but that mostly has to do with overall quality of our team. I mean put Nowitzki in place of Bargs and the Raptors are still a lottery team, and still going to lose vs Bulls.
Lakers failed to make playoffs in 2005, they had Kobe – KOBE – at the top of his game but the team was simply not good enough. One player can only do so much. Not trying to compare Kobe and Bargs here.
I think we can all agree Raptors have a better chance of winning basketball games when Bargs is on the floor. The problem is it’s still a small chance…
by TFC Academy on Jan 16, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
what does
my wanting Bargnani to be amnestied this past summer have to do with the outcome of the last two games?
In the end you agree with me in principal but disagree with me out of spite. Excellent. Glad to see I’m the ignorant one.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
What?
Do you read my argument? Can you honestly say that the Raptors front court is not better with Bargnani playing? You asked did they miss him, I rebutted that they did and provided facts to back that up.
You haven’t.
You have simply stated again and again, that I misinterpret your question but don’t correct me in how I interpret it. You call me ignorant but don’t tell me how I am ignorant.
I said the reason we argue is a fundemental difference, where I see Bargnani as our best offensive player and a key piece to this team. On top of that I gave advanced statistics (you were fond of using those to point out how bad he was last year) about how well he has played this year. Win Share and Simple rating which he is not only tops (with Jose) on our team but top 40 in the NBA. While his presence will obviosuly be felt more at the offensive end ( which is a big deal as you need to score to win) his defence has been solid (not great but not a liability). Which allows for him to be productive.
So while you like to say I’m spiteful or ignorant. Remember I have used reason and facts to support my claims while your arguments have been….
Never did I narrow anything down to ‘the offensive end’ (not a suprise thats were this goes ofcourse) I, again, asked "WAS he missed that much".
Best check your statements and that definition again.
you change/misinterpret my question, then proceeded to call me ignorant because of it. What are you being ignorant about? Both the question I asked in the first place and calling my statement ignorant.
Not to bring d-hack into this, but he seemed to be able to understand it well enough.
Thanks for coming out though. Always a treat.
So when you asked was he missed and I say YES, because the rest of our post players have been awful, and provide facts about how well he has played and how poorly they have played. Or say I have misintrepreted that question but don’t tell me how even after I have asked how am I ignorant?
You asked did we miss him? I answered. You said I didn’t say we were better or worse without him, I did. We are a better team with him than without him, which is obvious, so why bother asking the question if we missed him. So while my statement hasn’t changed you’ve just called me names and haven’t elaborated your explaination which I have asked for as I would love to have a reasonable debate. If I have missed the point of the question (and am ignorant), “Have the Raptors missed Andrea?” please illuminate me so that I can respond accordingly, but as you haven’t at this point I can only assume its because you realize the question was silly or have no rebuttle that facts can back up.
my own fault for saying anything else
but I never asked about ‘the front court’
And you are right you did say they missed him, and then also said:
“To be honest I still think they would of lost.”
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
again....
so well written and elaborates on so many points I asked.
To quote a great coach from hockey..“Goalie is part of the team” just like in basketball, the front court is part of the team. Or should we just focus on Jose Calderon, DD and the rest of the back court.
I am not arguing about hypothetical wins, Chicago is a great team and a championship contender, and obviously could turn it up. However, that doesn’t change the issue that the team is better with Bargnani and would therefore miss him.
If Bargnani not playing means Magloire (who should be playing very limited minutes) and Davis (who has been playing poorly) get more minutes, the front court is obviously weaker without Bargnani. If the front court is part of the team (which is obvious) and they are worse without him, than the team is obviously worse off.
Did I miss anything?
Why Are We Beating The Obvious To Death?
I agree with you and it boggles the mind that any Raptors fan wouldn’t
Bargnani’s play has a been a plus for the Raptors this season.
That is all there is to it unless someone needs the “been a plus for the Raptors” defined.
Imagine....
If you think I am beating the obvious to death, how I feel about writing it. I have been trying to make up a lesson plan but keep getting distracted.
Anyways how is LA and how does it feel to be a Clips fan right now? hahah
Great to be a Clippers fan. LOL
Los Angeles is a bit more Mexican today than it was yesterday. LOL
seriously...
Butler and Billups have been really underrated this year and they still have Mo Wiliams (who two years ago was an all star) on the bench.
They are going to be a tough out in a 7 game series. If CP3 can get the bunch of bums he had in New Orleans to compete with the Lakers imagine what he can do with this group. They just have one big flaw…VINNY!
Interesting question
I’ve been a fan of Andrea’s work so far this season, but admittedly have been asking myself the same questions regarding his presence…to NSFS’s point – the team hung tough in both losses so far, yet still lost, something that I’m doubtful would have changed even with Bargs. Need to look at some more in-depth stats.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 16, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Its Hard To Compare
Why
Because with Bargnani out the bench weakens considerably with Ed starting.
So it is hard to judge. Of course that is if the Raptors are worse with Bargnani out. If they are better than of course it obvious as to the answer.
Raptors with/without Andrea on the floor and do not include the last game against Chicago.
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.0 95.3 +5.7
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 105.6 108.1 -2.5
Net Points per 100 Possessions -4.7 -12.8 +8.2
Points Scored 710 256 +454
Points Allowed 736 285 +451
Net Points -26 -29 +3
You Don't Want To Go There - LOL
Amir
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
104.2,93.0,+11.1
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
102.2,112.0,-9.8
Net Points per 100 Possessions
+2.0,-19.0, +21.0
+21.0
so we agree....
Raptors are better with both players.
Yep
The three problems for this season as I see it are.
1. Bayless out except for the first three games
2. No production at SF
3. Ed’s lousy play
One problem with the Raptors is that they have no margin of error when it comes to losing key rotation players especially two of them or more
lets change the order of that...
1) No Production at SF
Actually that could almost be #1, 2 and 3.
but I think Bayless and Ed have been big negatives and Gray being out as well. If Gray was healthy could of kept Ed off the floor a little. Can’t believe I have to say that, was so high on Ed before.
Fair Enough
I am in a good mode and your points are close enough to not bother arguing with. LOL
Would Bargs have made a difference against the Bulls?
I think it’s a valid point. When you break down Bargnani’s contribution this season, he’s typically lights out in the first quarter or half, but ultimately plays far too many minutes (particularly in back-to-backs) and ends up shooting 28% or so in 2nd halves.
So Bargs might have allowed the Raptors to jump out to an early lead. But what would he give you in crunch time?
Barganani’s overall efficiency has been much better under Casey. And the slower pace seems to agree with his game. I think he could be even better if his minutes were limited OR he somehow found a way to get himself in condition to log 40 minutes per game night in, night out. He’s not there right now and the numbers back that up.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 16, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
I think you just described every overrated PF in the history of the NBA. I keep getting visions of Shareef Abdul-Raheem (or however you spell his name) or as I like to call him, the SARs of a basketball team.
even more so....
Ever player that is a square peg being forced into a circular hole. Or every player that teams try to turn into franchise players and expect to carry their team.
Also how many players avg 40mpg in the NBA? Noooonnnneee.
Bargs is a #2 or 3 option who should play 32-36 minutes.
Sounds About Right
Bargs is a #2 or 3 option who should play 32-36 minutes.
Is the slow pace due to Casey or Bargnani? I was liking how much they got out running on the bulls. That right there is an argument to limit Bargs minutes a bit and maybe play dd when bargs sits, since dd seems to struggle in half court. Might also preserve bargs energy for the fourth which is when things naturally slow down anyways.
must of been few and far between...
We are last in the NBA in fast break points. Ironically we were second in 2010. Personally I prefer watching a team that plays hard rather than one that hopes to out shoot a team. I think what we would both love to watch is the Raptors turning there D into O and running the break.
Last In Fast Break Poinsts
Jose, Andrea and Butler, need I say more
When Amir and Bosh played together, Bosh would do the heavy rebounding and Amir would run out and the Raptors would fast break. We saw a lot of that.
With Bargnani and Amir playing Amir has to be the rebounder and is not quite fast enough to also be the run out guy when he rebounds.
Though I saw him do it once with the Pistons
Amir rebounded a missed shot passed to Stuckey above the foul line, then Amir immediately began running to the other end of the court. Stucky without having to dribble passed it to Amir who flushed it.
Only time I an recall ever seeing that type of play though I am sure it has been done by other pairs.
sasha...very nice
and as basketball is supposed to be…simple.
Pass, drive, defend….I mean, come on team.
Not sure if the comparison of how both teams have been without their big men since I would have to be less lazy and look up who the Hawks have played.
And I am not sure who else is ingured on their team.
However…defending the outside 3 AND the inside is really THE key to basketball. If a team has this offensive ability…that is basketball 191.
Once they have it, it is a tough game.
Gray
Update on Gray – he’s apparently practicing now and was shooting around pre-Hawks today. Apparently looks pretty good so we may see him back soon.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 16, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I really hope
forbes gets more burn going forward. Although its only been 2 games, I think he has been a better PG than Bayless so far. Maybe the Raps could play Forbes as the back up PG and Bayless as the SG (when he’s back ofcourse) and then switch on defense. (that ofcourse leaves Barbossa out in the cold which I’m not against, although I highly doubt happens….)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 9:02 AM EST reply actions
I think I would rather see Forbes being developed as Point forward (much like Grant Hill) who can come off the bench and run the offense with a change of pace scoring PG (okay much like Bayless).
I Have No Problem With Forbes Being The 3rd String PG
or PF as you described him.
I think that is probably what we will see once Bayless returns.
This year?
14.5/5/3 on 48% shooting and making some big shots. Obviously he loves Orlando.
Realistically he needs to have the ball n his hands, and he didn’t in Phoenix or Toronto. He is overpaid but he is still a quality player in the right spot.
writing off young talent
for those of you who judge games early on in the season and figure those players have taken a step down and are useless in the future really should re think this. In a month, u will see a better ed and demar. They are figuring shit out in a new system with not much practice time. It takes longer for young players to get it in a new system. The veterans on our team to be honest get it faster and by those i mean calderon, amir and bargs. The other veterans are really just washed up and they will never get it cause they are terrible and we all know who they are! Its early on and they are 4-9. Not a bad start, was everyone expecting like 9 and 4? by the end of the year, u will see most of the improvement… they are still more in training camp as games are there practices. Bulls, pacers, and all the top teams have most of same pieces, coaches so they know the drill. We were already a step behind that so give it time. U will see a different team come mid February and I will come back and say told ya so!
or just not come back at all.
We do not have talent, figuring it out is fine and dandy but right now alot of veteran teams are out of shape. Steve Nash has come out and said I am not in game shape yet.
We are just not going to have a good season but I think any person who is still posting here is a true fan and wants the team to do well. You just have to be realistic and in fact I think most people are pleased with how the team is competing.
bargs
he would also be a starter on any top team……. he would create to many match up problems and dam they would be unstoppable.
He Wouldn't Start For
1. Lakers
2. Clippers
3. Bulls
4. Spurs
to name just four there are probably some others like Utah that I doubt he would start for.
uhmmm
1) debateable, point is not whether he is “better” than Gasol, but does he pair better with Baynum? Lakers would do a swap Baynum Andrea in a hear beat (also due to contract considerations)
2) he would not start
3) is he better than Boozer? This year Andrea is but it is too short of a sample
4) Which Duncan? This year and last year Duncan? I believe you just made a superstar call
Bargnani Can't Play Center Period
Raptors fans suffered with for years trying to play Center. He sucks when he plays Center. It is as simple as that.
There is no evidence based upon his history that he can play Center. Hell Amir is a better Center than Bargnani and Amir probably hasn’t played 20 games in his NBA career at Center.
So for Bargnani to start for a good team it would have to be at PF. So go around the league and look at each players, offense, defense, rebounding etc and Bargnani would be hard pressed to start for to many good teams.
He certainly wouldn’t start ahead of Bosh at Miami LOL
As far as Duncan is concerned do you really think that Pop would bench Duncan in favor of Bargnani? Bargnani would have a tough time playing ahead of Splitter who is one heck of a defender.
KG would probably start ahead of Bargnani at Boston. I can just see Doc saying to KG. Heh Kevin we got this guy from Europe we are going to start in front of you and his name ain’t Dirk. Yea that would go down real big.
I Know
Lets look at the current playoff teams
No
1. Bulls
2. Heat
3. Dallas
4. Thunder Thunder don’t need his scoring and Ibaka is a far better defender
5. Trailblazers
6. Lakers
7. Clippers
8. Knicks
9. Spurs – No way he starts ahead of Duncan even if Andrea is currently scoring better
Debatable
1. Magic
2. Atlanta
3. Jazz – Milsap is a better rebounder and defender
Yes or Probably Yes
1. Cavs
2. Pacers
3. Nuggets
4. 76ers
Bargnani has been guarding the other team’s weaker offensive option most games (at least the ones I have watched) which more often then not is the Center so he really is still playing center. You can call a cow a bull but that is udder nonsense.
It Will Be Interesting To See
who guards Josh Smith today, Ed or Amir
Am I reading that right? You think the Lakers would swap Andrew Bynum for Andrea Bargnani “in a heartbeat”?!
I’d question that. Bynum is a true centre and Bargs proved to be one of the least productive players in the league when playing the 5.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 16, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
think he meant...
playing Bargnani and Bynum together. So Pau for Bargnani?
Either way absurd, I like Bargnani more than the avg fan here and I still think that is insane. Talking about two seven footers who change the game on both ends of the floor.
A little more plausible. But I think the Lakers would laugh off a Gasol-for-Bargs deal as well. I mean, Bargs is getting his numbers as a high-usage first option on offence. Gasol seems to be far more comfortable as a 2nd or even 3rd option.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 16, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Which you could argue Bargnani would be more comfortable in those circumstances as well. After all he plays like he is deferring in the second half of games as it is so at least on the Lakers he would actually deferring to someone.
They Would Lose A Lot Of Their Spanish AFL Fans
if they trade Pau for Bargnani
Besides Pau is a better scorer and rebounder than Bargnani.
As a first option Pau would outscore Bargs and out rebound Bargs
That was true in the past but Pau has always been overrated by to many NBA observers. His teams never won a playoff game until he played with Kobe so Barney is already beating Pau there.
Plus though I am loathe to admit it, Barney has played better this year and was even averaging double digit rebounds in the 3 or 4 games before he went down to injury. Combine that with their age differences and I would think the Lakers would at least look at the trade. Not sure they would take it but you could argue either way whether the Lakers would win the deal or not.
food for thought..
Pau has avg over 20ppg only 2 times in his career and his career high is 20.8. AB did 21 last year.
Pau is similar to AB in the sense that they are both not franchise players but great complimentary players.
Barbosa/Kleiza and Bargnani for Gasol and the Lakers two first round pick this year!
Actually, raptors would be a little crazy to do this as Gasol is making over 19mill the next 2 years after this one. As professional as he is, do you think a 33yr old Gasol would motivated to play for the Raptors after LA.
Pau has averaged 9.1 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career and has a career rebounding percentage of 14.5% He has also averaged 3.2 assists per 36 minutes
Bargnani’s comparable career numbers are 5.9, 9.6% and 1.5
source: BasketballReference.com
Pau is also a better defender
easy big fella...
I’m not the dingus who even suggest this trade, I would never do it. Pau for Bargnani if I was the Lakers. personally I think Kobe would pull a Kg-Big Baby and make Bargnani cry.
Personally I think what Bynum/Gasol bring to the table make the Lakers a threat for a title every year.
no
I said they would swap Gasol in a Heartbeat, considering also his contract and how Andrea can play in/out with Bynum where gasol is more in/in
lost me...
Bargnani is a career 36.8% three point shooter, which is down this year due to the over use of him. While it isn’t going to lead the NBA 36.8% he has averaged 1.4 threes per game for his career. Which over a season is 115 and would put him near the top 25 in threes made for a season.
The Spurs only have Jefferson, Manu, Green and Bonner who are shooting it better than AB career %. Manu is out, RJ is a 3 man, Green is a 2/3 and Bonner is well Bonner.
To say he can’t shoot the three is a bit of a stretch you just don’t want it to be his first option, but off ball movement when he is catching it ready to shoot, he should pull the trigger.
Exactly
He is not a high volume three point shooter. He could be used like Jefferson So I will grant you that he could be ahead of Splitter on their depth chart but he would not start for them at least while Duncan is still being productive.
i gave ya that one,
still think he would get 30mpg for the spurs.
If you figure there are 96minutes available at both the 4/5. Blair and TD get 50 of those minutes. Leaving 46 minutes. Splitter gets 20 leaving 26 minutes for Bargnani, but he would definitely steal some from Splitter or Blair.
But if they had Bargnani they would probably be blowing a few more people out of the gym.
I disagree with the Bulls and Spurs on that list. Personally I think he is clearly better than Dejuan Blair, plus he brings the spacing that Pop loves. Even if he didn’t start he would play 30+minutes because Blair/Duncan avg 25mpg.
The Bulls biggest weakness is Boozer D and so far Barg’s d has been better than Boozers. At least Bargnani tries to hedge now while Boozer just sags. On top of that Boozer’s offensive game is struggling so far, (he dropped that 17/13 game on Ed Davis). Plus I think that Tib’s would love to have a big who could really space the floor for D Rose. How would you guard a line up of Rose, Rip, Deng, Bargnani, and Noah, when Rose/Noah ran a PnR.
Obviosuly subjective but cannot argue with Clips and Lakers as both are stocked at the 4/5.
“he would also be a starter on any top team”
I’m going to assume a few things here.
1) this is as a PF
2) top team means playoff team right now or contender coming into the season (eg. Boston)
3) ignoring injuries
therefore Bargnani would need to be considered a ‘better’ player than
Dallas – Dirk
SA – Duncan (can definetely question whether he is a C or PF ofcourse)
NY – Stoudamire
Orlando – Anderson
Miami – Bosh
Philly – Brand
Indy – West
Boston – KG
OKC – Ibaka
Chicago – Boozer
Atlanta – Josh Smith
Memphis – Randolph
Portland – Aldridge
Clippers – Griffin
Denver – Nene
Utah – Misap
Lakers – Pau
The teams I think he definetely wouldn’t start for – Clippers, Lakers, Spurs, Portland, Memphis, Atlanta, Boston, Miami, NY, Dallas. I doubt Utah, Denver. Possible Chicago, Indy, Philly, OKC. Definetely Orlando.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
did want to add
there are a few cases I can see teams moving positions. Atlanta moving Smith to the SF and starting Bargnani I could see. Aldridge to C I could see… although they don’t seem to want to do that unless they absolutely have to.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 16, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
probably get me ridiculed...
I would take Bargnani over Amare (if I was in NY), I just personally think that Amar’e doesn’t fit which is why they are trying to move him. Amar’e’s play has been going down and down since the Carmelo trade. He went from avg 26ppg on over 54% shooting, to 24ppg/49%, 20ppg/43%, to this year which is 18/41%. Also with Tyson now playing C and Amare the PF he is avg 0.4 blks and only 8 boards. NY has the pieces to cover up Bargnani’s short comings, two elite rebounders at the SF and C and a shot blocking big behind him. I think the Carmelo trade has affected Amar’e not because of his presense but the lack of presence of a good PG. Amar’e has always had a good pg to play with first Nash and then Felton ( who was unreal in NY). I just personally don’t think the pieces fit with NY and that AB is actually a better fit for NY than Amar’e and he doesn’t have the injury history, has a better contact and has an insurance policy. With a real pg Amare is All NBA but when the offence is run through Carmelo and Amare doesn’t have a pg to PnR with its causing problems, maybe Baron can fix him.
If teams were willing to move players than Bargnani could definitely start on alot of those teams, such as the Spurs over Blair, Nuggets over Mozgov, Josh Smith to SF and its hard to argue KG is more effective than him but I understand why he wouldn’t start haha. KG would take him to the wood shed. However, on that list there is many that are debatable David West, Boozer, Ibaka ( has anyone looked at him play this year Collison plays as much as him), Alrdidge to C, Bosh to C (Joel Anthony over Andrea….really?).
For once we are on the same page.
Bargnani Would Not Start Over Blair
Do you realize that Blair’s toughness inside is adding years to Duncan’s career?
No way Bargnani would start over Blair
Blair is averaging 11 – 7 in 24 minutes
Duncan is averaging 26 mpg.
For the most part Duncan and Blair on the court together and Blair plays inside doing the dirty work.
No way Bargnani and Duncan start together.
Nope
Splitter is a far better interior defender and rebounder.
Bargnani would be the 4th big for them at best since he can’t shoot threes to well and besides the Spurs often play with three non Bigs
Three Non-Bigs
what I meant was three players who can make three point shots which Bargnani does not do very well.
Which is just a reflection on Anthony who clearly has never played well with others. Most overrated player in the NBA today.
I Don't Know If Bosh Is That Over Rated
Not to many NBA media consider Bosh much more better if any than a good PF
On today's game..
I always dread the Hawks on the schedule as the Raptors never seem to have very much success against them. Maybe it is all psychology but I cannot remember the last time we beat them. I am sure it must be somewhat recent but the Hawks seem to possess matchup problems all across the board for us.
Josh Smith is simply better than anyone we have at the forward position (even with Bargnani). Smith is so long, athletic and dangerous in transition, on the boards, from mid range and changes the game from the defensive end. Joe Johnson may not be worth his contract but he is still much better than anyone we have on the wing, and Marvin Williams is much better than anyone we have at the 3 (as sad as that is to say). Our one saving grace is the fact that Horford is out.
While I expect the Raptors to compete with the Hawks I can’t see them winning this one, as they don’t have a clear advantage at any position. They don’t have the fire power to win this one down the stretch. Here’s hoping I’m wrong but I am expecting another low scoring game 84-70 for the Hawks seems a reasonable score. Then again I could be wrong and the Hawks athleticism could run us out of the building.
Yep
If I recall only one win vs Hawks in last three years
Conspiracy theory on why the Raptors are playing today in Atlanta
1. Atlanta almost always beats the Raptors or they have over the last several seasons
2. Today is MLK day in the U.S.A.
3. MLK was born in Atlanta
4. Game is on NBA.TV
The Raptors are the foreign patsy’s playing MLK’s birthplace on his birthday
5. Atlanta games are rigged, scorekeepers cheat(anyone remember that?) and refs are bought (wave off tj ford game winner)
Sounds Like Elections in America LOL
scorekeepers = vote counters
The elections are rigged, the vote counters cheat and the politicians are bought.
They are not rigged….they just don’t count the votes they don’t like. Just ask Al Gore about Florida.
The Also Count A Lot of Dead People
and illegals
Ball Don't Lie - LOL
That blog is Yahoo’s attempt to be like Jon Stuart.
Sorry Don't See The Connection
The guy in the video with his back to camera at about 1:14 looks like Greg Monroe. He is becoming one heck of a NBA player. I always liked his game at Georgetown.
You didn't see the DeMar DeRozan jersey on the big screen?
It’s a great big Number 10 on it… below the word DeRozan…
lol, oh well at least the Piston’s are staying up thinking about DeMar… he’s inside their heads!
"the Truth"
Got It Now
It is a Raptors game on the big screen TV
Score 56 – 47 in third quarter.
Couldn’t make out who the Raptors opponent was.
"Hustle and Flow" - Listen For Those Words On Future Raptors Telecasts
Eric Smith suggested a nickname for Amir. Smith suggested “Hustle and Flow” Amir has tweeted that he likes it. I tweeted Eric and asked him he could get Devlin to use it during a game. Smith tweeted me back that he would work on it.
We shall see
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