Canada is out of the running for London, Leo steps down
As many people have been calling for in the last few years, head coach Leo Rautins will be stepping down as the lead man of the Senior Men's National Team. The announcement was made following the loss to Panama which had eliminated Canada from the fifth spot in the FIBA Americas Championship and eligibility for the Olympic qualifying tournament next summer.
This should be no surprise to anyone who has followed the team over the last few years. The public had wanted him out for a little while after a poor showing at last summer's World Championships. Leo had done a remarkable job with the parts that he had. He was definitely not the most popular of the people but he was smart enough to surround himself with the parts to help him, and Canada, succeed. Of course there was the issue of lack of quality young players on the team and rumours of some of them not wanting to play for Leo. Whatever. Bottom line is that he did the best he could in the circumstances he was given and we can't fault him for that.
Should we be in the Olympics, of course we should. Could we have placed better in international games and tournament, defnitely. In my opinion, anyone that looks to bash Leo now is totally missing what he was dealt with and what he had to work with. He was definitely not my first choice as head coach but I can't hate on a man who did remarkabley well with what little he had.
Coach Leo, we salute you.
9 months ago
rbala
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I think you are ignoring that Leo was party responsible for the talent that was or wasn’t on the team. This isn’t a case where the coach can blame the GM for poor drafts or trade. Rather, Leo was the coach and the guy most responsible for convincing eligible players to play. In fact, if you recall the articles surrounding his hiring back in 05, his alleged ability to relate to NBA types was cited as being one of the main reasons for the hire, and was said to be enough to overcome his lack of coaching experience.
Of course that didn’t work out, and Leo had a worse record in convincing Cdn NBA players to play than did Konchalski or Triano.
In terms of results, Leo had 4 cracks at the Tournament of the Americas and finished 9th, 5th, 4th, and 6th. Triano and Konchalski never finished out of the top 5 in their 5 combined tries. Triano was 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in his three chances, and Konchalski was 4th and 5th in his two.
Anyway, that is all water under the bridge now.
Final plus/minus for this tournament:
Pt Guards
Joseph -3
Anderson -17
Wings
Brown +1
English -4
Shepherd -25
Rautins -36
Bigs
Kendall +15
Doornekamp +1
Young -13
Olynyk -14
Anthony -15
Ferguson -15
Excluding the two blow-outs (Cuba and Argentina) and only looking at the six competitive games (Brazil, DR, Ven, PR, Urug, and Pan):
Points
Joseph +2
Anderson -24
Wings
Brown -3
Shep -11
English -11
Rautins -31
Bigs
Olynyk +6
Doornekamp +5
Kendall +4
Ferguson +2
Young -11
Anthony -34
I didn’t forget the “being able to relate to NBA types” comment. Leo was not going to relate to Nash (Triano supporter) or Magloire (who apparently didn’t like Leo I hear). Dalembert was a situation onto itself that could have been handled differently and that was the NBA talent. Cory and Tristan are in their own places and Tristan wasn’t going to play for Canada this year (and I’m not holding my breathe for the next couple of years either). Leo had no cred with the NBA types to begin with. Not the best choice overall but as you said, water under the bridge.
Great look on the plus/minus as always. I find it odd that the heavy minute guys were badly in the minus department.
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
Leo did his best
I don’t particularly blame Leo for the outcome. To me he wasn’t the best choice for the job, but he gave it his all and he made some wise moves by bringing in experienced people around him.
Even though Leo might not be totally to blame, I think this is the right move for Canadian Basketball moving forward. There has to be some accountability and whether you fail while trying your best or while slacking off it is all the same in the end (you failed).
I will be interested to see who Basketball Canada turns to next. I guess Jay Triano would be an option ;)
For the good of the program, I hope the next guy can bring the same kind of motivation that Leo did, but without alienating useful players. I’d like to see all Canada’s up-and-coming youngsters out there (circumstances permitting) leading the national team into a new and more successful era. There’s lots of great raw material coming down the pipe: Cory, Kris and Maurice Joseph, Tristan Thompson, Kabongo, Wiggins, Wiltjer, Nicholson, etc….
Next summer, and the one after, will be a big ones indeed. I don’t know which guys are going to want to play for the national team but of the ones you mentioned, there were a few that will have been done or been out of school. The next head coach will have a time trying to get some of these guys into camp and maybe then we’ll see where these players’ allegiences lie. That also goes for the pros as well.
The next two summers will be a proving ground for the rumours about Leo. If these guys want to participate with Leo gone great. But if they don’t …
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
Re the plus/minus, the whole team was negative for the whole tournament (-25) and for the six competitive games (-21), and in situations like that the big minute guys are typically going to be negative. A guy who played 30 mins of each game would be expected to be about -18 for the whole tournament, so that represents a baseline. Rautins, Anthony, Anderson, and Shep had worse plus/minuses than one would expect given their playing time, Brown, English, Joseph, and Kendall had better ones than one would expect.
Re the next couple summers, things should be very interesting. With no meaningful games in 2012, I suspect the program will schedule a few exhibition games, and that participation by the star players may be spotty. It may be a good opportunity for other guys to get meaningful playing time with the program.
Summer of 2013 (qualifying for the 2014 worlds) will be the next meaningful games. At that point, C. Joseph will have finished his second pro season (assuming the lockout gets resolved), and Kabongo will likely have finished his first (assuming one and done at Texas). Anderson will be 30 yrs old and should still be in the mix. Cadougan will have finished his college career and may also be a viable candidate. Maybe Pangos as well, depending on how his first couple seasons at Gonzaga go.
I am not sure how much turnover we can expect at wing. English will be 32, Brown 30, Doornekamp 27, Shep 27, and Rautins 26, so will all be at or slightly above typical peak ages. K. Joseph will have finished his first pro season and, assuming he participates, would be a very strong candidate to replace one of those guys. D. Joseph may also be in the mix, but I don’t think he is good enough. I think 2013 will be a little early for Wiggins (he will still be in HS). Same for Heslip, Pierre, Staukas, or any of the other young guys at those positions. I can’t think of anyone else who would challenge for a wing spot. Maybe Kong or Arop if they resurrect their careers?
I expect the most turnover at C and PF. Young is looking very long in the tooth (he will be 33) and Ferguson is marginal. Between Sacre, Birch, Thompson, Wiltjer, Nicholson, and Ashaolu, Canada is stacked with young talent at these positions. All of these guys except Wiltjer will likely have one pro season under their belts by summer of 2013 (assuming Birch comes out after one season and WIltjer does not). Dwight Powell may also be a factor. Maybe also Bhullar and Bennett, though they will be still be very young.
Should be quite a bit of turnover between now and 2013, and by 2015 qualifying for the 2016 Olympics, possibily 100% turnover.
I think Bennett is aiming to be a SF at the next level and beyond. Could be your starting 3 in a few years. I think he may be one of the best of the bunch mentioned above.
Yeah, I thought about considering Bennett as a 3, but opted to group him in with the bigs. Either way, I think he may be too young to make a serious run at a roster spot for 2013 (unless a lot of the other guys discussed above are no shows). I agree that in the longer term he could be one of the best of the bunch.
by Underwhelmed on Sep 9, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont see him as too different from TT and CJ this year. He is such a highly coveted prospect that he will probably be 1 and done. If people thought TT would help this current team, I can only assume Bennett would be a SF that could compete with our current crop of wings.
And people sometimes talk that Wiggins would be a Top 10 2012 right now if he was in that class. Who cares if he is still in high school in 2013. If he is good enough….throw him in there. Better to get him committed to the Senior team as soon as possible. Duel citizenship and all.
I think one difference b/w Bennett and Thompson/C. Joseph is position. Canada had a deep need at the point position. The last few summers have seen Tyler Kepkay and Ryan Bell hold the position behind Anderson, and this summer the other true point in camp was Antwi Atuahene. So C. Joseph, even a 20 yr old C. Joseph only one yr out of HS, is probably an upgrade over those guys.
Same deal with Thompson. Canada was very thin up front and Thompson would have been a clear upgrade.
Maybe in 2013 Bennett will also be a clear upgrade over Doornekamp or one of the other wings, and, if so, I agree that he should be on the team.
Same deal with Wiggins.
Anyway, this has been a good discussion. Does this site have a message board? It would be nice to keep this going.
by Underwhelmed on Sep 9, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Anthony
I think Joel Anthony is going to continue to be involved with the NT for a few more years to come. As the young guys come up he can transition to 3rd big, bench player and maybe later on a big man coach or something. The thing I like about Anthony is that he has a great attitude and he is a very smart player on the defensive end.
Wow - bombshell
Have to say that I expected Leo to stick through this, especially with the recent contract extension.
Question for all – had Canada gotten to the Olympic qualifiers, even by squeezing through, would Leo have stuck around?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Yup ..
Leo’s contract was two years with the expectation that he would pilot this team into the Olympics had they qualified. That was the intention since he’s been the architect of the team the last few summers.
Outside of that, Leo would stuck around anyway. I’m sure that if Canada made the Olympics, players would have been (magically) available next summer that could have put Canada in a position to place in the Top 6 at least (think Nash, Thompson as examples) and that would have made Leo’s job a lot easier at least from that standpoint. He was around for arguably the darkest period of the program and it would have been right to have him try and steer the ship in the Games. Unfortunately, he walked into a mess when he got here and since then the mess has only managed to get itself righted somewhat and only looks worse now if you’re looking in from the last two years.
Bottom line is that the National Program would have fought to keep Leo on for the next summer since he’s been their loyal soldier for the brunt of the last two summers of criticism.
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
"He was around for arguably the darkest period of the program..."
This is an important point. Even though I’m not the biggest Leo Rautins fan, I believe the program has been in a bit of a rebuild mode over the last half decade or so. After the likes of Nash, Rowan Barret, Mike Meeks, Todd MaCullah etc. aged, injured or retired from playing for their country, there has ben a necessary youth movement. Which at least partly explains the lack of on court success. The sad thing for Leo is, we’re probably on the cusp of turning the corner. As per DW19’s comments above, there is some legitimate talent in the pipeline, and if my memory serves, the U19 and other youth teams have faired quite well over the last few years. For what it’s worth, I thought the team played pretty hard for Leo over the course of this tournament and played pretty good defense as well. I often think you evaluate a coach’s ability to caoch by his ability to get his teams to play good defense…
the JMNT did poorly this summer
that had a bad case of the “No shows”. Could have been and awesome team with all our best talent. No Bennett, Birch, Wiggins, Wiltjer or Kabongo. Thats your starting line up right there. The pups are learning from the Seniors.
Yes…I do understand that the freshmen need to get on campus….but Pangos played. Sim too. All the while Bennett and Wiggins stayed to play AAU instead.
Very True ...
A full squad would have meant at least a medal at that level.
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
not to mention....
Matt Bonner not geting his canadian citizenship (coz he is not a hockey player) He definitely would have helped this team.
Props to Leo for recognizing he needed to step down… if it was actually HIS choice to step down.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Sep 8, 2011 10:50 PM EDT reply actions
Obviously not...but
He is Canada’s only elite player and on top he plays the most important position on the floor which also happens to be our weakest. We don’t have the talent to be successful for the last 10 years without him and it has shown. Basically he is our Nowitzki. We have no shot to compete without him, but with him he brings so much that we would be able to compete with Top 10 nations. Even Germany can make the Euro finals when on a killer role.
I understand when he says he needs a summer off once in a while. We have seen that from Dirk, Ginobli, Parker etc. But he has had the last decade off and this was a very crucial tournament weakened by the lack of the USA. His presence could realistically given us a Top 2 finish and entry into the Olympics.
I respect what he did in his early years for Canada, but it would be nice for him to show once in a while instead of giving up on Canada completely.
I think Nash would have made the difference in losses against Puerto Rico, Panama and Venezuela, but he was not single-handedly going to close the ~20 point gaps in the games against Brazil and Argentina.
With Nash Canada would have likely come 3rd and moved on to the next qualifying tournament. Without him they still should have finished in the 3-5 range, so his presence shouldn’t have really made that big a difference.
We will never know...
A PG like Nash can control a game beyond my comprehension.
Most scrubs have career years with him of the years in Phoenix, he can make those playing with him so, so much better. Ask the Raja Bells and Shawn Marions of the world.
Also, whose to say Dalembert, TT and some other talent that should have been there don’t show up if Nash is playing. The Dalembert incident may never have happened if Nash was involved. Cripes Nash is so godly maybe the govt would get off their ass and give Bonner citizenship if he was playing. Who knows. Lots of “what ifs”.
These Brazil and ARG teams were not that good too. We could have beat them with a stacked Canadian team.
Remember we are talking about the MVP of the NBA not too long ago…he was that good and still would make an unbelievably huge difference..
I think those are pretty major assumptions that you are making. I mean if you are blaming Nash for Bonner not getting his citizenship then I think it is emotion rather than reason talking. No offense intended, I just strongly disagree with your point.
No...no...
Didn’t mean to imply that. Just saying there are too many variables and “what ifs” for you to say that we would not have come 1st or 2nd with Nash on board.
Being sarcastic with the Bonner comment. But hey…you never know.
I agree that Nash got a free ride from the media for too long. Its been 8 years. I could understand a summer or two off. Maybe after a long playoff run, for example. But every summer, even when the Suns don’t make the playoffs, or when there is a lockout?
If an NHL player did that he would be villified. And an NHL player doing that wouldn’t even be as bad because Canada has so much hockey depth that it doesn’t matter too much if our best player, or even our best 2 or 3 can’t/won’t play. In basketball it is totally different.
Re the effect Nash would have had on this tourney, we need to remember that this tourney has semifinals. So finishing in the top 4 would have been huge. It would mean a one shot game against Brz, Arg, or PR for an automatic berth.
If Nash had been on the team I think we would have had an excellent chance at finishing ahead of the DR for 4th, and I think our chances with Nash against one of the top 3 would have been about 50/50.
So it wouldn’t have guaranteed a spot in the Olympics, but I think it would have improved the chances from about 5% to about 40%-50%.
(the Euros are so good that I think the chances of a team from the Americas making it out of the last chance tourney are remote. I suspect they will take all 3 spots available at the last chance tourney, just like they did in 2008. Only two Euros qualify automatically, so teams like Lithuania, Russia, Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Macedonia, and Slovenia will be in the mix).
Lovin' this discussion ...
But I think realistically, with Nash in his current physical condition (he had his cut significantly this season in Phoenix) and the situations with the current team (injuries for instance) this team even with him would have been tough to get to that 5th spot. The injuries to Doornekamp, Anthony and to a degree Rarutins were what did the team in (in my opinion) this time around.
There are a lot of what ifs for sure and had Nash played I’m sure we’d ahve less of of them.
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
How long did Mario Lemieux take away from representing Canada before playing for the ‘02 Olympic team? He didn’t play once for Canada between the 1987 Canada Cup and the ’02 Olympics. If you really want I can dig up dozens of other hockey examples.
Its really immaterial as he has ever right to not play. Its not Steve Nash’s fault their is a lack of coaching ability in Canada. It’s not his fault that Dalembert has basically been alienated from the national team program. It’s not his fault that he is the only credible player in Canada. Expecting a 37 year old to come and carry a team that he probably wouldn’t be able to play for going forward and for a coach that he obviously didn’t love is a little much to ask for.
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