Live From Eurobasket 2011 - More Thoughts on Andrea Bargnani
by Adam Francis on Sep 7, 2011 9:30 AM EDT
in HQ International
Email
Print
With some assistance from one of SB Nation's bloggers, taking in Eurobasket 2011, the HQ offers some concluding thoughts on Andrea Bargnani...
On Monday we discussed Andrea Bargnani's play in recent international action and it wasn't exactly the most positive review.
Perhaps it came to no surprise to most but we concluded that while some of his offensive statistics looked ok, the rest of his game, even in Eurobasket action, left us wanting a lot more.
Interestingly, yesterday, one of SB Nation's bloggers, the infamous Zorgon B from Welcome to Loud City, sent us a note regarding Bargs' play as he's been taking in the action live overseas.
Here was his report on Andrea:
From the few games I've seen him play in the NBA, it's clear to me that Andrea Bargnani has two sides. One side is the poor man's Dirk Nowitzki, the man who can shoot the lights out of the arena and play adequate defense, but the other side is the streaky shooter who can doom your team with several missed shots and defense that practically doesn't exist. In this game, I saw a bit of both.
Offensively, he was on the good side. He was playing more aggressively than I've ever seen him, going toe to toe with Joakim Noah and even driving the lane for a tough dunk at one point. Of course, he would at times be too overconfident in his abilities and miss tough, off-balance jumpers. But he was the most consistent scorer for Italy overall, and you couldn't have asked more from him on that end.
But, he showed his bad side tonight as well. He couldn't stop anybody inside, be it Noah, Ali Traore, or any variety of driving guard. It almost seemed as if every other scoring play involved him failing defensively in some way, almost canceling out his offensive effectiveness.
The most disappointing thing about Bargnani is that he didn't seem to be a true leader on the court. Most of his scores happened because he beat his opponent in some way, and didn't really involve any other member of the team. He didn't make his team mates better, either. He wasn't really a part of plays that weren't meant for him, and he wasn't much help on the boards. When it came down to the wire, Italy couldn't do much but give Bargs the ball and hope he hit a tough jumper that the entire crowd expected. In the end, Bargnani is still the player that we all think he is. A great scorer, but a terrible defender, and someone who could never be the best player on a successful team.
A big thanks to Zorgon for that perspective, an interesting one to me in that even as an outside observer, and blogger for a separate team, he still came to the same conclusions that many of us have at this point regarding Andrea.
Are we beating a dead horse now?
Possibly, although not intentionally.
When I asked Zorgon to take a look in at Andrea while he was overseas, it may have resulted in a positive review of his play for all I knew.
Yet here we are, flogging away, yet again.
In some ways though, this analysis has me excited for the future.
We know what to expect from Bargs after five years, (some would argue we've known after three or less) and his play in Eurobasket 2011 does nothing to make me think that we're way off the mark. Maybe now instead of constantly critiquing Andrea's game, we can start discussing strategies about his use; how the Toronto Raptors can use him to create mismatches and even as a decoy for guys like Ed Davis and DeMar DeRozan.
Yes, there are flashes of "what could be" still that will tease Raptors' fans for as long as he's a member of the Dinos. After all, Bargnani had a very impressive game statistically on Monday, dropping 26, 11 and 3 on the Israeli team, shooting some nice percentages along the way.
However his arguably more talented Italian team failed to pull out the W again, and that's really the bottom line here.
To paraphrase Zorgon, Bargs simply can't be your best player if you're hoping to be a successful team, and the key now is for the Raptors to find a way to use Andrea to his strengths, either as a starter or off the pine. If you're going to keep pretending this is the player who should be getting the bulk of minutes in every situation, and who should have the highest usage rates on the team, expect to see a lot more 20-some win campaigns like last year.
Let's hope this season, assuming there is a season, is the season the Toronto Raptors finally realize this.
98 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I think its pretty clear
that Zorgan B is biased and unreasonable allowing his hate to cloud his judgement. He clearly doesn’t understand how important those points were that were scored and that if Bargnani wasn’t on team Italy they may have won no games instead of 1.
Ok all my nonesense aside there is no doubt in my mind that Bargnani is best used as the 6th/7th man or as Dwight Howard’s wing man. Seeing how Dwight isn’t a very likely option, the bench makes the most sense. But then one still has to question is it worth using him and keeping his contract at the cost of one of Amir/Ed/Jonas?
I think the best hope now, assuming Bargs stays in Toronto, is that Jonas becomes that all-star, defensive presence, low post playing, legit C (ie. Howard/Bogut lite), either Amir or Ed are requested in a ridiculously benificial trade that brings in a top notch perimeter player AND Casey gets Bargnani to play with some level of a quality resembling effort (I mean to the point where he can be considered a poor defender and rebounder instead of ‘terrible’ and ‘the worst in the league’).
But that 10 mil a year contract on the books for 4 more years is still the most damaging effect… and that can’t be ‘hid’. That can only be moved (through a trade) or become fair to good value, and thats completely dependent on him improving. If a hard cap is brought in, it could be even worse.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 7, 2011 10:03 AM EDT reply actions
A great scorer
Maybe against skinny 19 year olds.
However in the NBA he is a high volume chucker who from time to time can have a great offensive game.
"In some ways though, this analysis has me excited for the future.
We know what to expect from Bargs after five years, (some would argue we’ve known after three or less) and his play in Eurobasket 2011 does nothing to make me think that we’re way off the mark. Maybe now instead of constantly critiquing Andrea’s game, we can start discussing strategies about his use; how the Toronto Raptors can use him to create mismatches and even as a decoy for guys like Ed Davis and DeMar DeRozan."
Here’s the problem with this line of thinking, it ignores the following:
1) Andrea Bargnani will be making $10 mil give or take per year
2) He is the apple of the GM’s eye (i.e. teacher’s pet)
3) Any time he occupies space on the court he will be taking minutes from productive players like Ed, Amir and eventually Jonas
4) Any time he occupies space on the court, it equates to a net negative impact based on his inability to defend, rebound, pass or anything else that isn’t shooting inefficiently (that he can do).
So, based on the above, instead of thinking about how we can mask the problem with duck tape and chicken wire, we should be discussing how we solve it. Meaning, we should be discussing trade scenarios and not much else.
Or how about this...
If there is an amnesty clause in this round of negotiations as there was before (i.e. the Allan Houston clause, where a team can wave one contract with no penalty to the cap), then this may be the best solution to the Bargnani problem.
It would be interesting to see what contract Bargnani could get on the open market if that did happen.
Andrea & Eurobasket 2011
The popular theme for this tournament, is that Bargnani scored plenty, but his efficiency was poor. So in light of that subjective perspective, here are a few facts from the 1st Round:
- He logged the 4th most minutes (34.2) – in a tight schedule (5 games in 6 days).
- 3rd best ppg (which is somewhat logical) – but only 5 players of the top 20 (in usage) were amongst the top 10 scorers.
- Only Deng was higher in both usage (#2) and points per game (#1)
- Andrea’s efg% was .551 (4th best amongst top 20 usage – an important correlation)
- Italy’s efg% (without Andrea) was .450 (a 100 point difference)
- Bargnani made 30 % of Italy’s points
- He had only 12% of Italy’s turnovers (Italy was #1 in least turnovers)
- Andrea had 62% of Italy’s blocked shots (he is 7 foot – so this doesn’t surprise me)
- AB was 4th overall in Blocked shots
- 8th in Rebound average (which given his usage, doesn’t sound like much – but being Andrea and his reputation, it should be noted)
Granted, someone could pick apart any portion of these numbers, but given the usage and demands on the offensive end (Italy was a very poor shooting team – 18th), these numbers do illustrate that Andrea fared pretty well.
.
As for the competition, I finally got to watch the Germany game. Granted, his shooting was poor. And not because his shots were contested to warrant bad numbers. He just shot lousy.
His defense was another matter. IMO, his D was pretty good. Fact is, Italy played pretty good defense almost the whole game – minus the last couple of minutes.
.
In the previous games (both the night before) – leading up to the Germany-Italy match, Germany played Israel (2 – 3).
- Kaman – 21 minutes
- Dirk – 27 minutes
In Italy’s previous game – against Serbia (4 – 1)
- Andrea – 34 minutes
My point is, this series really means nothing – as far as I’m concerned. But to suggest Andrea played atypical, is really stretching the truth. Some people even go so far as to say (or infer), that these teams are filled with scrubs, so it’s only natural for AB to play well. That to me, is atypical when it comes to judging Bargnani. No one ever said he was a Super star. To me, he’s a quality player who’s been dogged by being selected #1.
.
.
No one is saying his play was atypical. In fact it the entire point was it was more of the same with Bargnani (terrible defence/rebounding etc. and average to below average offense – generally inefficient offense). This was also against non-NBA caliber oponents. So, pretty typical…
MAS - No Mas
.
With the exception of the French game, I did watch 4 of Italy’s games – so I can’t argue with Zorgon (on that one game), nor suggest he stick to star gazing and gallivanting around the cosmos.
Never-the-less, I can’t agree with you in saying Bargnani was terrible on defense, or rebounding. In fact, I’m more apt to say he played above his norm. And to imply it was against non-NBA caliber opponents just reminds me of the Euro bashing that has plagued us North Americans.
.
Sure, some of the opponents lack NBA qualities. But so does Italy, which means defensive intensity was focused on Andrea & Gallanari – with Belly not so much.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Sep 7, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
How Many Points Did Bargnani Score Today?
or score tomorrow in the EuroBasket 2011 quarter finals?
Wait he and Italy are not in the quarter finals.
Did they draw a bye.
Yes indeed. They drew a bye bye.
So Bargnani led Italy back home to Rome.
Kind of like he led the Raptors to the fifth pick in last June’s draft.
That will eventually become Bargnani’s Raptors legacy. His awful play in 2010-11 enabled the Raptors to draft Jonas.
So no I don’t hate Bargnani; in fact I love him because of his leadership in enabling the Raptors to draft Jonas.
“So Bargnani led Italy back home to Rome.” Again, not atypical or an anomoly. Any team that plays Bargnani in a feature role will end up at the bottom of the heap.
I Was Trying To Be Humorous
Oh well, I guess I better keep my day job.
“In fact, I’m more apt to say he played above his norm.”
he could play bad defensively and on the boards and thats still above his ‘norm’
" And to imply it was against non-NBA caliber opponents just reminds me of the Euro bashing that has plagued us North Americans."
yet right after you say “some of the opponents lack NBA qualities”… so are you Euro bashing then? Or does the necessity to imply bias in others override reality?
Oh I was also wanted to ask if your own “subjective perspective” actually influence your take on Bargnani’s ‘defensive intensity’?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 7, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
“yet right after you say "some of the opponents lack NBA qualities"… so are you Euro bashing then? Or does the necessity to imply bias in others override reality?”
I was going to comment on the logic vortex that Rapthoseleafs once again blindly wandered into, but you beat me to it.
Just so Rapthose is clear on this point though, I will elaborate. Rapthoseleafs, stating that the competition was non-NBA caliber is not Eurobashing. It is simply stating the fact that the majority of players on the teams he and Italy played, do not have NBA contracts and don’t, haven’t or will never play in the NBA. This is fact, not bigotry or xenophobia.However, thank you for continuing to employ all the sad and tired Bargnani excuses in the book (including the flavour of the summer – “Euro bashing”. You gave me a good chuckle…
Serbia vs LTU
The crowd is amazing. The noise level is off the charts.
LTU with their best half of the tournament lead 54 – 44
Jonas played 9.5 minutes and had 10 points and 3 rebounds.
He also took a Krstic elbow to the mouth but he looked okay on the bench afterwords checking his mouth for blood.
Final LTU 100 - Serbia 90
Jonas
MP 19.5
Pts 18 (FG 8 – 9 and FT 2 – 3)
Reb 5 (2 – 3)
Asst 1 (very nice bounce pass on a give and go)
Turnovers 4
Fouls 1
His best game by far in the regular EuroWorld 2011 games
http://live.fibaeurope.com/www/Game.aspx?acc=1&gameID=9798&lng=en
One of his baskets was a right handed Thor Hammer throw down.
Valanciunas Leads Lithuania To 100-90 Win Over Serbia
Valanciunas Leads Lithuania To 100-90 Win Over Serbia
Sep 07, 2011 5:13 PM EDT
Behind a strong performance from Jonas Valanciunas, Lithuania defeated Serbia by a final score of 100-90.
Valanciunas had 18 points and five rebounds in 20 minutes. Mantas Kalnietis had 19 points and seven rebounds, while Sarunas Jasikevicius had 14 points and seven assists.
Nenad Krstic had 21 points to lead Serbia.
Via RealGM Staff Report
Jonas vs Enes Basic Stats Comparison EuroBasket 2011
So far they are pretty even in most of the basic stats per game.
The biggest differences are in FG% where Jonas is ahead and in FT%, Turnovers per Game and Fouls per Game where Enes is ahead.
Jonas
-—————-
Games 5
MPG 17
PPG 9.2
FG% 75%
FT% 67%
RPG 3.6
BPG 1.0
SPG 1.0
APG 1.0
TPG 3.0
FPG 3.0
Enes
-—————-
Games 6 (+ 1)
MPG 17.7 (+ .7)
PPG 9.2 (Even)
FG% 57.1% (-17.9%)
FT% 78.9% (11.9%)
RPG 3.8 (.2)
BPG 0.8 (-.2)
SPG 0.2 (-.8)
APG 0.5 (-.5)
TPG 0.8 (-2.2)
FPG 1.7 (-1.3)
Summary
-———————————
MPG Enes +.7
PPG Even
RPG Enes +.2
Source EuroBasket 2011
one thing that stuck out to me… 67% FT shooting? Thought Jonas was money from the line?
Otherwise between the two, with very little watched and mainly stat based interpretation… Enes a little more refined(?) and undercontrol. Jonas could be a wrecking ball (which could become either good or bad)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 7, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Anybody Out There
How Many Points Did Bargnani Score Today? … or score tomorrow in the EuroBasket 2011 quarter finals? Wait he and Italy are not in the quarter finals. [ Buddha
fan….. “What we think, we become.”]
Yes … you’re absolutely right. Andrea is the reason.
In fact, you’re bang on …. on a number of occasions.
Raptors HQ Needs To Get One Thing Clear. The Raptors will make the playoffs in 10-11 [Buddah – Sept 10,2010]
The Raptors will be better without Bosh. Watch and learn. [June 28, 2010]
Hassan Whiteside. Sign Johnson 3 years at $15 million Extend Weems 4 years at $15 million Nice young core of Weems, DeRozan, Johnson and Whiteside. All very athletic and talented. [May 8, 2010 ]
Sorry Budda …. didn’t mean to pick on you. The irony of all this is …. I was – and still am – a fan of Amir. Even when a number of RaptorsHQ regulars were not.
yet right after you say "some of the opponents lack NBA qualities"… so are you Euro bashing then? Or does the necessity to imply bias in others override reality? [ Not so Friendly …. what’s up with that? ]
You’re right as well. I should’ve clarified “opponents” with “certain players” instead.
Oh I was also wanted to ask if your own "subjective perspective" actually influence your take on Bargnani’s ‘defensive intensity’? [ Not so Friendly …. again ]
Right again. I listed 10 facts that you misinterpreted as subjective logic. Or was that logically subjective. My bad.
And to imply it was against non-NBA caliber opponents just reminds me of the Euro bashing that has plagued us North Americans.
Sure, some of the opponents lack NBA qualities. But so does Italy, which means defensive intensity was focused on Andrea & Gallanari – with Belly not so much. [RapthoseLeafs]
Just so Rapthose is clear on this point though, I will elaborate. Rapthoseleafs, stating that the competition was non-NBA caliber is not Eurobashing. It is simply stating the fact that the majority of players on the teams he and Italy played, do not have NBA contracts and don’t, haven’t or will never play in the NBA. [ MAS11]
Yes … if a European player doesn’t play in the NBA, it`s because he can`t play in the NBA.
Let me straighten this out for you Mas No Mas.
On second thought … never mind.
.
The reality is …. some of you guys (gals?) mistaken fanboy, for someone who stops at nothing to define their passion for a specific person (or thing), without realizing that one can simply be a fan of the Toronto Raptors, and by extension, a fan of its’ players.
I defend Bargnani because he gets incessant hate dislike for anything and everything. More or less, I’m just a fan who hates dislikes how one can call themselves a fan, yet rejoice (and cheer) to anything that can make their wishes come true – including seeing a player stumble and fail.
.
To me Fanboy is more akin to those who drool over an iphone, because Steve Jobs CEO tells them so. While on the tech side of things, it’s nice to see The Verge join SB-Nation. They’ve formed a pretty good group of techies.
.
And by the way … this Post title is from a favourite band – Pink Floyd.
Is Anybody out there – just seems appropriate.
.
“You’re right as well. I should’ve clarified "opponents" with "certain players" instead”
wouldn’t have mattered. “Certain players” are still his “opponents”.
“Right again. I listed 10 facts that you misinterpreted as subjective logic. Or was that logically subjective. My bad”
really? which one of those “10 facts” PROVE his defensive intensity? Because he blocked some shots? against “certain players that lack NBA quality”?
nice try though.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 7, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow - I Am Flattered
that you save my posts to your hard drive to re-read them and quote them here later on, You can also follow me on Twitter @Buddahfan though please don’t quote my political tweets on this blog.
I never knew you were such a big fan.
Thanks again for reading my posts and quoting them in your musings.
I appreciate it.
Just for your information, if you ever want to look up my posts or anyone else’s, you simply need to go to their profile and search through their recent activity to find the comment you might be looking for. I expect that is what RTL did.
Thanks For The Tip
I will keep it in mind for the future.
“Let me straighten this out for you Mas No Mas.
On second thought … never mind.”
Umm… Great argument.
BTW Rapthoseleafs, you can be a fan of the Raptors and not a fan of Bargnani. In fact it is difficult to be a fan of Bargnani if you are truly a fan of the Raptors and actually want the team to do well.
Casey and Andrea
All this will become very clear once the Raptors start playing again. Casey says that he relies heavily on advanced stats. His assistants rely on advanced stats.
If Andrea’s advanced stats stay the same as they were this past season, then Casey will have to address this issue. If they improve dramatically, then he may stay a starter. Obviously I hope Rapthoseleafs is right about Andrea and that he deserves to be defended.
Sadly, I am deeply concerned that all the naysayers are correct and Andrea is as bad a defender as some suggest. But I trust Casey to handle the issue correctly and I am excited to see what he can bring to the team. Accountability is one of things I expect our new coach to bring. Good luck Andrea, I hope you play better and give us a pleasant surprise next year. I am extremely skeptical, but we all would love to see you play well at both ends of the floor and help the Raptors improve.
+1
This is the attitude I’m bringing to next year, and this is why I think all this discussion of Bargnani in the Eurocup is fairly pointless. I mean, yes, we have to talk about something, so…
But anyway, my point is, I didn’t expect to see Bargnani play any better this summer. We’ve seen him play internationally before, against the same level of competition, over and over. Never any difference. He plays the same game. The only difference this year will be the effect of Casey and his coaching staff – which I am excited to see. External variables people – the internals of Bargnani’s game are pretty set – but external variables like teammates and coaching can change a lot.
Casey's Affect On Bargnani
Bargnani is a lazy defensive player.
To my knowledge he has been a lazy defensive player all 25 years of his life.
Everyone knows Bargnani hates speaking English and loves Rome.
If Bargnani couldn’t exert an effort for team Italy in the EuroBasket 2011 in an attempt to get them into the 2012 Olympics what makes anyone think that he will exert an effort for Casey?
What is Casey going to do when Bargnani continues to stink it up on defense because he is a lazy defender? Send him to the bench? Will that reduce Bargnani’s pay? Its too early for Bargnani to worry about playing for his next contract.
I admit that a healthy Amir and Casey’s defensive acumen might be able to somewhat cover the acne that is Bargnani but IMO Casey will not be able to cure the acne.
How is Casey going to make Bargnani a more efficient shooter or better passer to say nothing about becoming a rebounder?
Well one thing we know is that Amir is a selfless great team player so it wouldn’t surprise me to see him tap a lot of rebounds towarad a standing around Bargnani to up Bargnani’s rebound total.
BC needs to trade the acne that is Bargnani to the first sucker he can find.
BC needs to trade the acne that is Bargnani to the first sucker he can find.
Sure, that’s been covered so many times it REALLY is not worth saying every time we comment, but failing that, Casey is our greatest hope – and I believe that a coach CAN make a player a more efficient shooter, rebounder, passer, etc. Motivation and system are very important to some players – others not so much. But I believe Bargnani falls into the former group.
It's Nice To Have Dreams
However Bargnani in a Raptors uniform gives me nightmares.
That is why I prefer to talk about Amir and Jonas
+1
As per your post above Buddah, I find it difficult to believe that Casey is going to be the panacea for Andrea Bargnani’s game despite the fact he has been ultimately the same player under any coach and system he has played in. As you stated above, if he can’t do it playing for his country, what the hell makes anyone think he can do it professionally.
I disagree
Bargnani is a lazy defensive player.
I don’t think he is a lazy defensive player. I think he tries. Unfortunately, the root of his problem is less fixable than laziness. I think he has very little feel for the game. It’s why his man-on-man defense is adequate but his help defense sucks. He is just unable to anticipate a play and then react to stop it. It’s why he’s rarely in a good rebounding position. This lack of feel even shows up on offense because once he gets the ball, he rarely passes it, especially to a moving player.
I guess you didn’t watch his play in the EuroBasket 2011 tournament and also hear the commentators bash Bargnani’s lack of effort on defense.
Devlin is too PC to criticize Bargnani for lack of effort. So you need to get the truth from people whose jobs don’t rely on them being PC in describing Bargnani’s lack of effort on defense.
Its really very simple. When Bargnani is standing on the edge of the painted area and an opponent drives the lane with Bargnani looking right at him but Bargnani stays planted like a Cyprus on a windless day that is lack of effort.
elaboration
but Bargnani stays planted like a Cyprus on a windless day while the opponent drives uncontested to the basket for an easy score that is lack of effort.
if the internal variables aren't going to change, just the extermal variables
why not try to find someone who has the internal variables that are ‘worth it’ so you have more room to work (options) with the external variables?
You are more or less handicapping yourself right from the start. If the Raps were already a ‘contending’ or ‘deep playoff’ team I could probably understand. But they are a rebuilding team. It doesn’t makes sense to start with something we already know is a weakness, that has to be fit just right or be hid in some form.
The Raps did this once with Bosh already (albeit to a much smaller degree)… and look how that turned out. Now they look as if they are going to try it again with a player who is weaker in nearly every aspect of the game.
It simply doesn’t make any sense to me to take a greater risk right off the bat.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 8, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I’ve established many times before and indeed in the comment you replied to that the best case scenario is moving Bargnani. I’m simply stating that just because I’d rather see him moved doesn’t mean that I don’t think he can improve under Casey.
by dhackett1565 on Sep 8, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
If Dirk Didn't Improve Under Casey What Makes U Think Bargnani Will?
Since you obviously know where to find my posts on this blog you can easily find the “Fan Post” I did showing that Dirk did not improve statistically under Casey. In fact Dirk got worse statistically when Casey was the defensive coach.
Dirk obviously benefited from added experience when Casey was an AC at Dallas as well as playing alongside other NBA players with years of experience.
Other than the huge talent difference between Dirk and Bargnani which is obvious even to the casual basketball fan Dirk plays harder than Bargnani, a lot harder. Has Dirk always played hard? I can’t answer that but it seems to me that it is more the head coach than one of his/her assistants that will motivate a player to play hard. R. Carlisle is an excellent head coach.
In 738 games as a head coach with three NBA teams he has a career winning percentage of .600 which I would guess is one of the better winning percentages for all head coaches in NBA history that have coached over 700 games. Compare that to Jerry Sloan who seems to me to be shoe in for the HOF. Sloan’s career winning percentage as head coach was .603 basically the same as Carlisle’s is now.
ISTM that Raptors fans are giving Casey way too much credit for Dallas winning the NBA title last season and not enough credit to their head coach Rick Carlisle.
Said he might. Maybe Casey wasn’t better than whoever was in Dallas before, but perhaps you can see that at the very least he must be better than Triano defensively.
To My Knowledge
ACs are primarily responsible for the Xs and Os in their area of expertise.
It is up to the HC to motivate his/her players.
I don’t ever recall reading where a team won anything because the players were motivated by an AC. Do you have such a link for that kind of statement? Please post if you do.
IMO Bargnani is not a motivated player other than being motivated to try and score because he knows that in basketball that a scorer even an inefficient one will always get paid better than a defender. (Of course there are rare exceptions)
Even on offense Bargnani is all too often lackadaisical in his approach and actions.
But… Casey is our head coach. So it is up to him to motivate Bargnani. And you can’t even use the Dirk example to show he can’t, since he was only an AC at the time, and you said yourself that AC’s don’t do that stuff. What exactly is the problem?
Do you have such a link for that kind of statement?
I’m confused… what statement do you need clarification on?
nice… already a new excuse for Bargnani. I can see it now “its Casey’s fault he’s not motivated, that was supposed to be his job”
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 8, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Say What?
I can see it now "its Casey’s fault he’s not motivated, that was supposed to be his job
Some athletes just can’t be motivated to play hard no matter how good their HC is at motivating.
The question is. Can Casey motivate the overall team?
Does that mean that he has to motivate every Raptors player?
It would be great if he could, but realistically I expect that he will only be able to motivate those that can be motivated and I don’t believe that Bargnani falls in the group of guys that can be motivated to play hard defense game in and game out for the most of the time that he is on the court.
What is really sad here is . I have seen Bargnani play when he is motivated to play at both ends and when he does he is actually pretty good. Unfortunately for the Raptors those situations are way to few and far in between and I don’t expect that to change much if at all no matter who is Bargnani’s head coach.
If Bargnani couldn’t be motivated to play hard for his home country which he loves how can anyone realistically expect him to be motivated to play hard as a foreign mercenary?
Has An AC Ever Motivated Players
to help a team win while he was an AC?
We have no idea if Casey can motivate anyone.
I hope he can, but to my knowledge I have never seen anything that says that Casey is a great or even good motivator.
Designing a good defense (Casey) is one thing.
Getting the players motivated (Carlisle) to play that defense with effort is another.
So… we’re back where we started, with me saying anything could happen with whether Casey can motivate Bargs, and we all hope so.
Nope
IMO Casey will not be able to motivate Bargnani to play hard every game for most of the time that he is on the court.
I have never meant to say otherwise.
Maybe my posts weren’t clear enough to lead you to believe incorrectly that I have said otherwise.
IMO Casey will not be able to motivate Bargnani to play hard every game for most of the time that he is on the court because Bargnani can not be motivated to play hard every game for most of the time that he is on the court. I don’t care who the motivator might be.
Hope that is clear enough for you.
Let me be clear. I don’t expect Bargnani to improve. Ever. In any situation. But I would think we all hope he will. Sure, I’ll be surprised if Casey finds a way to motivate Bargnani. But I hope it happens. We have no proof he’ll be able or unable to do so. So we are left with ‘IMO’ and ‘I hope’, just like I said.
But here’s why I hope: Bargnani’s best all-around seasons came under Smitch, who was by all accounts a better motivator than Triano. Casey may or may not be a better motivator than Smitch – I don’t have proof either way. As such, I hope that between possibly being a good motivator and possibly restricting Bargnani’s minutes like they were in those first seasons, Casey can have a positive impact.
Fantastic point. I could see making all sorts of efforts to hide Bargnani’s numerous deficiencies if he had one area where he was world-class. However, he doesn’t, his offense – as has been demonstrated time and time again – is relatively inefficient and his weaknesses are so many and so weak that trying to overcompensate in other roster spots will handicap the team talent wise and financially. So why go through the effort?
Yawn
I don’t know about fantastic point. It was a fantastic point when we were bringing it up a year ago. Now it’s an old point that’s been discussed to death. Outside of a couple people, no one here has supported building around Bargnani for quite a while now.
The discussion above was about how successful that attempt might be – not whether it is even a remotely good idea to do so.
“Outside of a couple people, no one here has supported building around Bargnani for quite a while now.”
unfortunately the guy who matters most (BC) has yet to prove he has made that connection. Not even “on paper”.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 8, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It is still a fantastic point obviously, as there are still some people on this message board, such as yourself, hoping against hope, that Bargnani magically turns it around, despite every imaginable piece of evidence pointing to the contrary. Also, I’m not talking about the team "building around him" I’m talking about him being on the team or the court AT ALL! He’s a liability that takes minutes away from productive player and is a net minus in production himself when he is on the court.
You are right that it is an old point. Yet here we are talking about how Casey is going to fly in here with his cape on and morph Il Mago into a useful player, when what we SHOULD be discussing is trade options.
PS> Yawn to your “hope”. It’s a waste of time and not worth discussing…
Oh, and please, if we could start up a conversation about trade options, that would be great. We just don’t need to talk more about how bad he is. It’s been covered folks.
Interesting That Some Here
have posted more on this thread than they have on all threads combined for at least the last week.
I don’t believe I am one of them though I am sure you could go check my profile and count my posts for the last week to verify if what I just said is correct.
Over out and done with this thread.
Adam, please no more threads on Bargnani until the pre-season opens.
What are you talking about… It’s been an actionless, empty, lockout summer. What the hell has there been to talk about. Of course no one commented on recent posts…
Adam, please give us a Bargnani trade option piece! At least we’ll have something to talk about.
Actionless Summer?
I guess your basketball world doesn’t extend beyond the NBA and the Raptors.
That is really a shame because there has been a lot of great professional basketball played in Europe this summer as well as some in Central and South America.
Lots of professional basketball this summer. Try watching the LTU game with Jonas tomorrow vs France and Noah. It will be on at 2:00 PM EDT. It is free to view and available on ESPNgo.com
FYI – ESPN3 online is not available in Canada, at least where I live. So you can stop linking that on here.
I Did Not Say ESPN3
I said ESPNgo
I am right now watching Spain destroy Serbia free of charge. Germany vs Turkey up next followed by France vs LTU
here is the link
Note the end of your link. That is ESPN 3 online. ESPN.go.com is just ESPN’s main site – the “go” means nothing.
And like I said – ESPN online is blacked out if you are not at least in the US, and it seems even specifically is only available to certain cable subscribers (probably most).
by dhackett1565 on Sep 9, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry To Read That It Is Blocked Out In Canada
See this for how to access ESPN.go.com/watch/ESPN3 if you use Firefox.
http://foxyproxy.mozdev.org/drupal/content/get-specific-candadian-proxy
the main web address is
ESPN.Go.Com.
Just type that in the address bar of your browser and hit enter. Then mouse over “Watch” and click on ESPN3
You will not win too many hi-tech related arguments with me, so I suggest in a nice way not to try. Thanks for your understanding.
You lost this one.
.
You will not win too many hi-tech related arguments with me, so I suggest in a nice way not to try. Thanks for your understanding.
My position: The majority of Raps fans cannot watch ESPN 3 online in any fashion, including via the link you posted.
Your position: I honestly have no idea.
My position is correct. What exactly is your position?
by dhackett1565 on Sep 9, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
And that link leads to a forum with a bunch of questions that are based on purchasing a proxy service. I doubt very many people are interested in purchasing such a service.
And to top it off, in the forums, the answer to a question about ESPN3 is that even if you get the right proxy, it won’t work for ESPN3 in particular. So I really don’t know what you are trying to say with that.
Wait a minute! Wasn’t this entire article ABOUT Bargnani, his play and how he won’t/can’t change?!?! Isn’t that what Francis was writting about? So why the hell are we surprised that this is the topic of discussion in the comments section? For the record, most of the discussion has not been simply about how bad he is. No one, save for a few sad morons will still debate that he’s a good player. We’ve been discussing whether or not there could be a role for him, whether or not Casey can magically change everything about him, what his value would be with the team in the future. ALL legitimate points of discussion. However, I agree with your former point. Let’s talk trade options… I’ve already suggeted using a amnesty clause if available (and rumours were earlier that there would be) and be done with it as the Raps will most likely hav to take a bad contract back anyways for Bargnani’s deal…
For the record, most of the discussion has not been simply about how bad he is… We’ve been discussing whether or not there could be a role for him, whether or not Casey can magically change everything about him, what his value would be with the team in the future.
True – and that part of the conversation has some potential – but inevitably someone says “Well, he’s awful, so why bother?” And then I lose interest, since we’ve been over that so many times – and all we’re trying to do is fill the summer with something remotely like basketball talk.
Dude, if we’re going to discuss the subject of “whether or not there could be a role for him” you should be prepared to discuss whether or not he deserves a role and/or whether the cons of him having a role outweight the pros. Or don’t join the conversation… I mean, how can you have that discussion and not consider the fact that he is a bad player and doesn’t deserve to take minutes from good players like Ed and Amir? Isn’t that essential to determining his role???
Sure – but if you don’t take for granted that he is going to have a role that takes at least some minutes from those players, you might as well jump to the conclusions we’ve come to hundreds of times before and start the trade discussions.
SPAIN, FRANCE, LITHUANIA WIN AT EUROBASKET
by Sekou Smith at NBA.com
The host nation team worked Serbia from both sides, the old and the new, in a rousing win to cap Wednesday’s action. Sarunas Jasikevicius, 35, showed off his playmaking skills, finishing with 14 points and seven assists, while 19-year-old big man Jonas Valanciunas was dominant, making eight of his nine shots from the floor and finishing with 18 points. Valanciunas has been a revelation for us here at the hideout. Aside from his pre-Draft hype, the Raptors’ pick was pretty much a mystery around here. But he’s shown himself to be much more prospect than project and Raptors fans have to like what they’ve seen out of the young big man.
Lithuania’s bench production was the key to this game. Valanciunas and Jasikevicius were the keys to the attack as the Lithuania reserves outscored Serbia’s subs 47-19. Valanciunas was particularly effective battling down low
There is no question the energy provided by the home crowd makes a difference. While Serbia tried to keep pace, it was clear that Lithuania played with an extra energy boost their competitors struggled to match. "I think the game was hard," Valanciunas said. "We played hard for all four quarters. I thank the fans because they put on a great atmosphere. It felt as though we were playing with six players. We shot very well from three-point range, especially in the first half."
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/09/07/spain-france-lithuania-win-at-eurobasket/
When was the last time that Bargnani thanked the Toronto fans?
When was the last time that Bargnani thanked the Toronto fans?
As good as TO fans are in comparison with the rest of the league (I’d say top 5), no league team compares to the impact of the screaming fans typical in a European arena.
Or, to put it differently, when was the last time Amir thanked the fans? Demar? Jose? etc.
When Was The Last Time Amir Thanked The Fans?
try here at Caribana
ISTM that flying all the way across the continent to show up at Caribana when it is not necessary is thanking the fans.
Also try this.
IamAmirJohnson Amir Johnson
For everyone who ask my ankle is doing and feeling great doc said I’m ahead of schedule thanks for ALL the love and support #iCare
29 Aug Favorite Undo Retweet Reply
thanks for ALL the love and support #iCare
If that is not thanking the fans I don’t know what is.
I could go on and on with more examples but I have other things to do for now
By the way they weren’t very difficult to find, just went to his Facebook and Twitter pages.
Okay - One More
simple Google search. Took fifteen seconds to find.
Well done, Amir
ryan.wolstat – March 15th, 2011
Amir Johnson is doing something very uncommon in this day and age.
He plans to take 50 fans out for chicken wings, to a Raptors-Bucks game and later that night, for a steak dinner.
It is Amir’s way of saying thanks for the way he has been embraced by Raptors fans and it is impressive.
Well done.
http://blogs.canoe.ca/courtside/tag/amir-johnson-taking-out-fans/
Context, Buddah. Jonas was thanking the fans for being a sixth man in a specific game. That was what we were talking about, no? Amir was thanking the fans for wishing him well in his recovery and for their ongoing support in general.
But when was the last time any Raptor had a quote like Jonas did there?
by dhackett1565 on Sep 8, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
players do it all the time
I’m sure you can find nearly every NBA player saying it at some point in time. I’m not trying to discredit Jonas here, but its not uncommon.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 8, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
But When Has Bargnani Done It
We are discussing him and comparing him to other players.
Of course players thank their fans for their support from time to to time but when was the last time that Bargnani did it? That is what I am asking.
All of you Bargnani fans surely should be able to come up with at least one link showing where Bargnani has thanked the Raptors fans. It took me less than a minute to find the one Jonas article and the three Amer thanks of his fans.
If I can find four thanks by Amir and Jonas in less than one minute than surely Bargnani fans who know how to find my prior posts here can find a link and post the quote of Bargnani thanking the Raptors fans.
Surely indeed.
That May Be What You Are Talking About
You must really be bored at work today. LOL
Thanking the fans is thanking the fans. How do you expect Jonas at this point to take out Raptors fans for steak dinner?
I am sure that somewhere along the line Bargnani has thanked Raptors fans.
Here is his Twitter account link. I am sure you could find one tweet of his thanking the Raptors fans when was he wasn’t doing a GQ shoot. (no I am not jealous)
https://twitter.com/#!/andreabargnani
Here are his last six tweets translated
1. Back in the air …. now I can not stay on Earth for more ’than 20 consecutive hours.
2. but after 5 years even try to interview a surprise at the airport? if I felt before I would at least put in her hair …
3. general strike …
4. locked in Riga …!!!
5. good question!
6. link to – Bargnani: “We have clear limits” The blue of the Raptors, commenting on the defeat of National European Championships
Listen to the interview and see if he thanked the Italian fans for their support.
http://video.gazzetta.it/bargnani-abbiamo-limiti-evidenti/de17282c-d7d3-11e0-8771-8728e65f610f
My dream
is that this is the season where we can all just acknowledge that Bargnani is an ineffective player, and stop having to remind each other of it every single day.
I've been looking at the sky
as soon as the organization
realizes that… I bet the discussion here about it changes significantly aswell.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Sep 8, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
+ infinity
If the franchise recognizes this and he is traded or his playing time is drastically reduced to make room for more productive players who also happen to be younger and the future of the franchise, it will all be a moot point.
as soon as the organization
realizes that… I bet the discussion here about it changes significantly aswell.
That will absolutely be the case.
It’s funny but at one point, we took a TON of heat for all the Bosh analysis, particularly in terms of if he was worth his salary, and then his possible future salary if he stuck around with the Raps.
It’s all about ebb and flow.
Believe it or not, the first player we ever really got into in terms of analysis was good ol’ Mike James.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
LAST CHANCE
Whether you love him or hate him I hope we can agree that Andrea has one more chance to prove he should be the Raptors starting PF. If his advanced stats don’t improve, then his playing time needs to come down dramatically. We have a coach who relies heavily on advanced stats, so he can no longer ignore the significance of the statistical reality of his play.
Or Casey is a man who has no integrity and talks out of both sides of his mouth…which is not the case. Trust in Casey my friends, accountability has come to town.
I think it’s pretty obvious the Raptors no longer expect Bargnani to take over the team leader, “franchise player” title that Bosh left open. Colangelo has made this clear by loading up the frontcourt with Amir, Davis, Valanciunis, and will likely target a proven center in free agency. He even called out Bargnani’s defense at the end of the season when he brought Casey on as the new coach, provoking a response in the Italian media from Bargnani.
Bargnani will either fit in the rotation as a scoring PF beside a defensive, rebounding center, or will be used as trade bait if there is a good deal out there for him.
It Certainly Didn't Take Him Long To Pursue His True Love
AndreaBargnani Andrea Bargnani
#VogueFashion’sNight was lots of fun….Milan was crazy yesterday!
18 minutes ago
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Raptors HQ
Related FanShots on Raptors HQ
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
