Jump Ball - Is Toronto the Worst Sports City in the World?

by Adam Francis on Sep 30, 2011 1:30 PM EDT in General

Some Friday/Saturday discussion as the HQ launches a long overdue "jump ball," where Franchise and D-Stance debate Toronto's recent ranking as the world's worst sports city...

Franchise: So last week, Grantland presented us with this little piece about Toronto being the worst Sports City in the World.

What was your first reaction after you read it?

D-Stance: My initial reaction was to brand this column as another piece of biased, lazy American journalism... until I realized that the author, Stephen Marche, is Canadian. However, when you consider that he originally listed the Blue Jays as one of the teams owned by Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment, you have to call his sports acumen into question.

Sure the performances on their respective playing fields has been mediocre to abysmal. But a lot of the examples Mr. Marche used to bolster his argument work in the opposite direction. The fact that the Toronto Maple Leafs have stopped taking names on their season ticket waiting list and boast a 99 percent renewal rate would preclude Toronto from being named the WORST sports city in the world. Clearly, Torontonians are supporting their teams at the box office and elsewhere(results be damned).

But who would rank ahead of Toronto on the list of worst sports city in the world? I can think of several in North America alone.

Buffalo has to rely on Toronto and the Province of Ontario to support both their NHL and NFL franchises.

How about Kansas City? They've failed to lure an NBA or NHL team despite having a modern arena.

Cleveland? They have the second-longest championship drought of all cities with at least two major professional sports franchises, with their last championship coming in 1964. Hey, at least the Leafs won in 1967!

And we don't even need to pick on the markets that have lost or are in danger of losing professional sports franchises.

The list goes on...

Franchise: I guess it depends on how you define "worst." Does worst mean "bang for the buck?" "Fielding winning teams?" "Wealth of sporting options?"

The ESPNMag poll that they referenced had Toronto ranked as the worst sports city because of the return on investment fans get. It's pretty hard to argue with that though right?

D-Stance: I get the return on investment piece. It's easier to make a valid argument that Toronto is the worst sports city in the world in terms of the return on investment for fans. Leafs tickets are out of reach for the average family. The Raptors are one of the most expensive tickets in the NBA despite little in the way of playoff appearances or success. And the Bills go from the lowest season ticket cost in the NFL in Buffalo to charging outrageous prices for the handful of games played at the Rogers Centre. But that's what happens when you have a market the size of Toronto.

From an article on Foxbusiness.com:

"The second largest influence on ticket prices is market size. The four highest ticket prices for NBA teams are for clubs in New York City, Los Angeles, Miami, and Chicago. The fifth team on the most expensive NBA ticket list is in Toronto, the largest city in Canada, and fifth largest metropolitan area in North America. The most expensive tickets in baseball are for The New York Yankees, the Toronto Blue Jays, and the Boston Red Sox. Football is something of an exception to the large market rule. Chicago and Dallas are on the list, but several of the other teams are primarily old franchises with storied pasts. These include The Green Bay Packers and The New England Patriots."

Despite what the American media would have you believe, Toronto is not a small market and its ticket pricing reflects that reality.

Franchise: I think though that's part of the problem with the city's sports' scene. The Toronto Raptors exist in one of the league's biggest markets, yet they are undeniably a small-market team in terms of their perception not only league-wide, but nation-wide too. There's a reason curling outdraws Raptors' basketball in terms of TV ratings.

So to the author's point, are fans making things worse? Because the city's sports teams know that fans will continue to support mediocrity, or frankly, less than even that, is this going to stay the same until the fans stay away?

D-Stance: I don't think fans need to stay away in droves in order to bring about change... at least in the case of basketball and hockey. MLSE has shown a willingness to bring in big name executives with proven track records in Bryan Colangelo and Brian Burke. They're not exactly handing over the keys to the David Kahns of the world.

The Raptors, in particular, have handed out lucrative contracts to past-their-prime free agents like Hakeem Olajuwon and Hedo Turkoglu. So the money and the willingness is there - they've just made poor decisions with the money they do spend. Combined with the fact that their number one pick came from one of the weakest drafts in recent memory and you have a recipe for the current version of the Raptors.

The Raptors had a small taste of success during the Vince Carter years. They've seen what it takes to pack the arena, make the playoffs, sell lots of jerseys, get the U.S. television exposure, etc. They've just failed miserably trying to recapture that glory.

The only Toronto team that could be accused of not spending in line with their peers is the Blue Jays. And I think most people recognize that situation is lose-lose when you're going up against the likes of the Yankees and Red Sox.

What's your take on Toronto sports teams from a financial perspective? Do you think they are simply hamstrung by poor decision making? Or are they not spending enough money to be truly competitive?

Franchise: I think by and large to your point, Toronto's teams spend enough money to be competitive, they've simply made poor decisions with said cash for the most part. However part of me can't help but wonder if there's not enough pressure on management to make change because fans keep supporting losing. The Jays though might be a good example of what happens when fans DO stay away. After years of slumping attendance, ownership finally cleared house and brought in fresh blood - fresh blood that looks like it may eventually lead to the best version of the club that we've seen in years.

D-Stance: So does an extended run of poor decision making by guys like Rob Babcock, Bryan Colangelo, J.P. Ricciardi et al translate into Toronto being considered the worst sports city in the world? I don't think it's enough. The teams definitely need to be more successful on their respective playing fields, but otherwise this city offers enough to its sports fans.

Franchise: No, I agree that it's not been due to a lack of effort by management etc that the city gets this rep, but I'll leave you with one final thought:

Is sports ingrained enough though in the city's blood? That's the one other factor that comes to mind when I see articles like this, or the annual ESPN Mag survey. Is this REALLY a sports town?

Or is it a Leafs town?

To give you an example, I was just in Boston and I was blown away by the amount of Red Sox gear, Celts' garb, etc, etc and EVERYONE flocks to pubs and sportsbars to watch their respective teams. You just feel it in the air when you visit places like that, and I'd say the same even for experiences with high school football in smaller, non "big 4 sport" markets like Alabama and South Carolina.

I don't feel that in Toronto. Perhaps with the Leafs, but other than that, the city seems more "fair-weather" than the majority of US cities when it comes to sports. Is that just me?

D-Stance: The Leafs (and hockey in general) are ingrained in the city's blood. When you get 100,000 plus watching Leafs games in Punjabi, you know it's captured the imagination of more than just a small group of puckheads. Toronto FC fans are passionate enough to fill the stadium with a sea of red and boo anyone who is not dressed in team apparel.

But Toronto definitely has some work to do in order to be considered on a par with sports towns like Boston and Chicago. I'll close with a few examples:

Several years ago, my brother wanted to watch a guy he knew who was playing ball for the Central Conneticut State Blue Devils. We drove to every sports bar and pub we could think of. And even though the bars and pubs had satellites clearly mounted on the roof of the buildings, no one could accomodate our request to show the game. If it wasn't hockey and it wasn't on TSN, they had no idea how to facilitate such a "bizarre" request.

The second example would involve anytime you and I and I have tried to watch a basketball game or NBA Draft in Toronto's sports bars. You end up dealing with the same small collection of businesses that can handle showing anything outside of hockey or baseball. Basketball is often relegated to the darkened corners of these places, if it's even shown at all.

The third example - and it's more of a critique really - revolves around the act of tailgating during the Bills in Toronto games. Tailgating is a vital part of the American sports experience, whether it's the NFL, NCAA football or NASCAR. The version that takes place in Toronto is an absolute abomination. Part of the blame falls on our liquor laws. The other part has to do with the complete lack of imagination on behalf of the folks putting on the event. You don't have to plaster sponsorships and make money off of every single activity. Some of the fan experience can be organic and happen in a parking lot with a cooler, bbq and some good friends. It doesn't always involve paying for overpriced beer and food.

Franchise: So I think we're seeing eye-to-eye here. Toronto isn't the worst sports city. Perhaps it's got a ways to go record-wise considering the associated costs with attending games, but Toronto offers a much more robust experience than many one or two-team US cities. And the Leafs, and hockey in general, inspire a very similar passion as sports' in US cities.

So worst?

Hardly.

But it's going to be a while before we can hold a candle to the Boston's and Chicago's of the US.

Oh...and I think we should start doing RaptorsHQ tailgate bashes if and when the NBA returns.

D-Stance: Only if we can we bring a Bargnani pinata.

Poll

Bottom line - Do you feel that Toronto is the worst sports city in at least North America?

No question about it.

43 votes

If you look at team records fine, but there's a lot more to it.

90 votes

No way, tons of worse cities.

140 votes

273 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 29 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Interesting discussion

Toronto has tons of sports options. Beyond what you mentioned there are major Tennis (ATP) and IndyCar events in the summer. There are more Canadian-oriented sports like curling and lacrosse. And then there is tons of sports participation in everything from soccer, to minor hockey to cricket. Toronto also produces tons of athletes from NHLers to Olympians to tennis players (Raonic, Poposyl) to, of course, b-ballers (Thompson, Kybongo, Magloire, etc…). I personally don’t think Toronto has anything to feel bad about as a sports city.

by DW19 on Sep 30, 2011 2:23 PM EDT reply actions

Great points.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Sep 30, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I think that’s part of the issue with the ESPN and Grantland pieces. Both are focused REALLY on just the four major sport leagues. So it’s a bit limited in scope to begin with.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Sep 30, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions

What About Snooker

and the CFL?

I have always preferred Snooker to pool or billiards. Snooker is a lot more challenging game to play then either of those.

The CFL has a lot more action than the NFL which has a time out ratio of commercials to game play of about 3.25 to 1. IMO American football is as boring as it comes.

So right off the bat T-Dot has two great sports that are rarely if ever played in America.

On top of all that it is a heck of a lot safer to attend a sporting event in T-Dot than any major American city.

I don’t know about price wise but I would think that it costs fans less to sit court side for a Raptors game than it does for a Lakers or Knicks game.

by Buddahfan on Sep 30, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow….I though you were being sarcastic there, but it turns out you are serious.

CFL? Snooker? Comparing the cost of court-side seats in TO versus LA or NY? Surely you jest.

Better off comparing to OKC or Memphis….

by Mojo J on Sep 30, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions

How About The Safety Factor

People who do these studies are such hypocrites

When they list the 10 best cities and 10 worst cities to live in they always take cost of housing and crime rates in account. But when it comes to attending Pro-sports events and the 10 best or worst cities for sports they decide not to take into account the cost or safety factor.

In Los Angeles people have gotten killed attending sporting events. Seriously and unfortunately. That makes it a great city for sports?

Yes a lot of great athletes come out of Los Angeles and you can ski and surf on the same day in the winter. Some people do in fact do this. The drive from the snow filled mountains to the Pacific ocean is less than two hours in some locations. However, the cost and safety factor of attending professional sporting events in Los Angeles is just bad news.

Heck they even moved the July 4th Independence day fireworks show in Santa Monica which boarders on Los Angeles from the evening to the early morning because of the extensive crime rate after the fireworks show when it was held at dusk.

You can’t make this stuff up.

by Buddahfan on Sep 30, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions

whats wrong with competitive snooker?

Have you never watched championship play?

'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'

by Jenge on Oct 2, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions

It's the best way to frame the argument for their audience though

Playing devil’s advocate, if you want to discuss best vs. worst sports cities you need a common context so using the four majors for your comparison makes sense. Every city or town has its niche passion sport, but it would be hard for me to relate to something like Louisiana Skeet Shooting.

As for Toronto’s standing as a sports city, a few things to consider

The Leafs are an old franchise, one cannot be dismissive of how much the notion of tradition plays into the resiliency of their following. They are as much a part of the pattern of behavior of the city as any other experience you can readily associate with Toronto. In essence, the friend that the city has grown up with. They’ve brought some really nice moments; even though it was a long time ago, they are entrenched as part of it. Consider also how the age of the franchise and the timing of the team’s emergence as a major competitive entity in the 60s plays into the development of its fanbase. I can imagine that associating with the Leafs was part of how new immigrants, especially if they were older at the time of their arrival, start to feel part of the communities they join. I arrived in this country as a baby, so never really took to hockey as a fan, but my dad would watch it religiously every Saturday. The Leafs for previous generations were probably social lubricant, helping people assimilate better in workplaces and other environments, something to have in common for generations before the Internet. This might explain the Punjabi numbers as the South Asian community has emerged as an influential population in the GTA, following patterns not unlike the Portuguese or Italians in the 60s?

The Jays achieved their greatest success as the world began to get “smaller” and more “international”. two factors – the makeup of the team had a nice cultural mix, very much reflective of the communities their fans were a part of. I didn’t know Dominicans or Venezuelans but as an adolescent becoming more conscious of the world I could relate to the “look” of the team. More importantly, their world series wins correspond with the further integrations of the Canadian and U.S. economies via free trade. They were our representatives, besting major U.S. cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, which was a special feeling at the time when we began to ask questions of Canadian identity in a North American context. It would be interesting to ask which sports team the casual American sports fan can best associate with Toronto. I would argue it’s the Jays and not the Leafs. The Jays following now vs. then is a victim of an antiquated/rigid playoff system that kills most casual interest by mid June for a sport that has always been slow in a world with more attention options and thus shorter attention spans.

The Raptors have to be looked at in a different context because they have arrived in the Internet age. I’ve stopped complaining about their coverage in the “major” media because I kind of understand that that media is playing to an older generation, whose frame of reference is different from my own. Even with their innovations and attempts to transition to online entities, television networks still have to deal with the environments in which they exist, trying to draw large, broad audiences to attract major advertising dollars. Even looking stateside, yes ESPN/ABC television, supported by American advertisers needing to reach American markets, doesn’t offer the Raptors at all really but I find online they receive coverage in U.S. sports media commensurate with their performance. One could argue that in recent years, collectively, all things considered, sites like Ball Don’t Lie/Yahoo, CNNSI, and ESPN have done better jobs at offering more interesting Raptors content than the locals (outside of maybe Chisholm).

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Oct 1, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions

That was a nice read. Great overview of the audiences for the Leafs, Jays and Raptors.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Oct 1, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions

+1

Great point on the coverage of the Raptors or, more importantly maybe, the different manner in which Raptors fans consume Raptors content. Your bang on in referancing the entrance of the Raptors to this market being contemporary with the rise of the internet age. I think its an interesting question though, whether the substantial coverage of the Raptors on line is a factor of the way in which we as Raptors fans consume content or, are we marshalled to online content by the lack of “traditional” content (i.e. broadcast, newsprint etc.)? Is the reason curling outpaces Raptors in terms of viewership due to old guard programmers being in charge of programing, a true lack of interest, or because Raptors fans (typically younger) consume entertainment differently (i.e. online through downloadable video, blogs etc.)? I’m sure the lack of on court success also has a lot to do with it as well. If the Raps were more successfull, you’d have a stronger fan base, higher ratings and more sponsors willing to invest in the product and subsequently more traditional coverage.

by MAS11 on Oct 1, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Good question

I think it’s that younger fans consume entertainment differently, but discussing whether what we get from the media mirrors the audience or that the audience’s habits are shaped by the media is another discussion all together.

Highlight shows that condense games to the good parts, looped every 15 minutes, PVRs, Youtube, there really isn’t the need to abide by the clock as much as there used to be. It really is more of an on-demand world and I think the media companies are recognizing this.

Also, to be honest, I can’t remember the last time I watched a non-playoff/olympic sporting event in its entirety. The games are being watched differently. Of all the basketball related content available on television, The Score’s Court Surfing might be the closest to ideal, getting bits and pieces of live games as the tension dictates. I don’t know if there is an equivalent for hockey.

Here’s a question: Is it fair to say that Raptors fans are more basketball fans than Leaf fans are hockey fans or Blue Jay fans are baseball fans? I don’t know, but I’m not casually following another hockey team or baseball team once the locals are out of contention but I can watch a basketball game even if it doesn’t involve the Raptors and still really enjoy myself. Maybe this is a consequence of entering into my sports appreciation phase of life by watching Jordan on NBC and being a Bulls fan as far back as 1989, but I wonder.

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Oct 1, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions

i think toronto isnt the worst but its bad.

I mean all the fans here love there sports and we are very crucial of them. But some places were worst.

by Jt Malley on Sep 30, 2011 4:43 PM EDT reply actions

I always am amused by the CDN inferiority complex...

I supposed it is no different from the psychological angst of any other middling relevant city in North America.

I have lived all over the place and have been in the US for the past decade now.

No, Toronto is not a crappy sports town. No better or worse then any other city I guess. The Leafs will always be a laughing stock to anyone who cares about hockey but i have never heard bad stuff about the Raps or their fan base so why are you guy fretting? The Jay’s have the normal issues of all the other middling MLB towns.

I think this conversation happens if every city outside of LA, NY, Chicago and maybe Dallas. Are we good enough? Do people like us? Hey everyone, I am over here – please look at me!

by Mojo J on Sep 30, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions

Cripes…Vancouver and MTL primary have TO to thanks for their MLS franchises. If not for the rabid fan base of TO FC then they likely would not have a team (yet).

by Mojo J on Sep 30, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Not fretting re: the Raps, but they’re hardly a success story, that’s all. And the “rabid” fanbases of Toronto FC and the Raptors are dwindling. I work as a partner with MLSE in my 9-5 job and there are private concerns about both situations.

But maybe that just lends itself to a point I made in the discussion…dwindling fan bases perhaps put the pressure on the team to make changes to management to get things back on track from a winning perspective.

You touch on something though that D Stance and I didn’t get into; the idea of empty seats. Which represents a better sports’ city;

-one that provides winning teams that no one goes to see? (A good chunk of Atlanta sports’ teams.)

-one whose teams are mediocre at best, but sports well attended games?

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Sep 30, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the latter is infinitely better than the former. There is a certain downward spiral that can set in if fans don’t support a losing team, at least somewhat. The problem is that without fans the team loses revenue, cuts its budget and never starts winning again. You can end up in a downward spiral to oblivion. That is pretty unlikely in a big market like Toronto, but look at what happened to the Grizzlies or other teams with smaller markets that have ended up in trouble.

Also, I would argue that it depends on why the team is losing whether you should boycott the games or not. If the team is in a natural rebuilding period because the previous stars got old then that is one thing. If the team is just badly managed that is another.

by DW19 on Sep 30, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Big Annoucement Coming in N.Y.

by Buddahfan on Sep 30, 2011 6:53 PM EDT reply actions

LIE Game Today Can Be Seen Here in 30 MInutes

http://www.lshunter.tv/basketball-live-streaming-video.html

by Buddahfan on Oct 1, 2011 9:33 AM EDT reply actions

FIrst I think everyone needs to take the article from Grantland with a grain of salt. It seemed to me to be meant as a funny piece more than a serious take on the ESPN article. Secondly I think you do need to think beyond just fan interest as there are other issues that contribute to Toronto being in a bad city for sports. Alignment is a prime example of this. I think Toronto made a mistake moving to the East to be with Montreal as I enjoyed the old Norris Division Rivalries with Detroit, Chicago and St. Loius more then dealing with Ottawa and Buffalo. Baseball is a disaster. The Blue Jays are stuck in the worst division in Baseball to be in for a mid market team (or small market depending on your view). I cannot help but wonder if they would have won a few division titles over the last 15 years or so if they were in the AL Central instead. As for the ownership, I do not think you can even argue that Toronto has had some of the worst ownership over the past 30-40 years. I mean how many other cities had two owners fight for the right to not own their pro team (anyone remember the Shotgun clause?). Harold Ballard makes Jimmy Dolan look like a genius (at least Dolan didnt try to make a coach where a paper bag over their head). MLSE has done nothing but put lipstick on their pig and call it “trying to win”.

by McGateway on Oct 1, 2011 3:02 PM EDT reply actions

Los Angeles must be right up there

Can’t keep 1 NFL team around, can’t run the baseball team (Dodgers), have the Clippers hanging around as one of the worst franchises ever, and the Kings are not exactly a top team either.

by B.C. on Oct 1, 2011 5:34 PM EDT reply actions

The Worst Sports City In The World

I see the ‘world’ is defined by both the original authors and those discussing it as North America. Perhaps we could hear how these cities compare with, say, London, Sydney, Barcelona, Rio de Janeiro, Mumbai, Milan, Munich and other noted sports cities. If not, then why mention the world at all?

by land47 on Oct 1, 2011 7:17 PM EDT reply actions

say, London, Sydney, Barcelona, Rio de Janeiro, Mumbai, Milan, Munich and other noted sports cities

London has how many Premier League teams that are ‘world class’ squads? Half Dozen.. How may do Milan have ? lol…

Yet North American sports are dominated by a refusal to relegate teams that don’t perform well to a lower league where they can get their act together…

Then there is this business of allowing teams to draft players based on the outcome of the season before…. not only that.. they can commodify this ability and sell it to other teams.

Then you have this nonsense of conferences, within leagues, divisions within conferences and championships that are very rarely a representation of the battle of the titans.

This whole AL/NL split in baseball is ridiculous… and so is this BS about divisions in most major league sports. It’s ruining sports…

thank you ESPN – how I never watch thee….

'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'

by Jenge on Oct 2, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I can’t speak for all of those cities but Sydney can support almost an entire league for Rugby League with their biggest stadium holding 80k people. RUGBY LEAGUE.

by McGateway on Oct 3, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions

I Would Love To Have The Beer Concession Rights At These Games

Even if they only sell the weaker stuff

by Buddahfan on Oct 3, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Lietuvos Rytas vs Galatasaray Today For The Right to Play in the 2011-12 Euroleague

It should be a good game.

Josh Shipp who plays for GAL was one of my favorite Ben Howland era UCLA players.

Game can viewed in about 75 minutes by going to the link below

http://www.lshunter.tv/basketball-live-streaming-video.html

I have watched the 2011-12 version of LIE play three games and I can say this

Tyrese Rice has got game. He deserves another shot at making the NBA.

A bit on the short side but he can dish out the dimes and get to the basket.

by Buddahfan on Oct 2, 2011 10:48 AM EDT reply actions

Chicago & Boston have both also won a lot of championships in recent memory

That helps stoke the fanbase quite a lot.

The Jays were a really big ticket in Toronto back when they were winning pennants and WS’s. Then baseball was locked out, and its shallow roots in the city were nearly washed away overnight. I recall when the Jays won the WS I knew every player on their roster by position. A handful of years later, and there was only about one or two of the names I recognized still on the team. They disbanded that winner in a hurry.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 4, 2011 10:30 AM EDT reply actions