Rebranding the Toronto Raptors Part III - The Problem of Perception
by Adam Francis on Aug 15, 2011 1:02 PM EDT
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Years from now -- when it's routine to see him dropping three-pointers over the outstretched arms of clumsy, lumbering big men and SportsCenter regularly features him spinning on the block and posterizing clawing defenders, when his uncanny passes draw comparisons to those of Bill Walton and Chris Webber -- we'll point to a cold November morning in Denver as the NBA birth of Andrea Bargnani.
-Chris Broussard for ESPN the Magazine, Feb 28, 2007
Bargnani has played five seasons, including one in which he fell off a cliff (his second season) and this past year when he regressed in some significant areas. There is no threat of him leading a preschool class across the street, let alone an NBA franchise deep into the playoffs.
-Michael Grange for the Globe and Mail, April 14, 2011
It's been over five years since Andrea Bargnani was the selected as the first overall pick in the 2006 NBA Draft.
After his selection, I voiced some immediate concerns regarding his similarities in style to Chris Bosh, but also saw the upside, and viewed the selection as Bryan Colangelo "thinking outside the box."
In fact after Andrea's rookie season, I even wrote the following:
If Andrea had been healthy for an entire season perhaps we'd be watching a Raptors vs. Cavs series now...and an off-season of post work and strength training could see Toronto sporting two of the league's most dangerous young players.
He still needs to prove he can rebound in order to become a starter for Toronto next season but in terms of my expectations prior to this season, Il Mago surpassed all of mine.
However over the next four seasons, we saw very little development outside of scoring.
And in fact we saw almost nothing in terms of what Broussard described in his quote above.
Uncanny passes?
Few and far between.
Low-post spins and posterizations?
Are you sure we're not talking about Blake Griffin here?
The reality is that Andrea hasn't turned into the player Broussard or many others, myself included, expected, and considering the vast majority of NBA players have completed the bulk of their development by year six, it's extremely unlikely we're going to see Bargs reach those heights.
So as we've discussed many a time, this leaves Toronto Raptors' management with a major dilemma.
Do they attempt to move Bargs? The $40M+ owing to him over the next four seasons makes that a tricky task, so the alternative may be to try and utilize his strengths while attempting to hide his major flaws.
But on a roster with very little other talent, this task may prove to be impossible, new coach and system or not.
During Andrea's five years as a Raptor, the team has racked up a record of 183 wins and 227 losses, resulting in a winning percentage of .4462. During most the bulk of those seasons, Bargnani had major help at both ends of the court but still struggled, especially in his second season.
Last year as the team's top offensive option he upped his scoring, but many of his other metrics decreased, and many times fans were left wondering if the club was better off with Bargnani on the IR, or at least coming off the bench.
However I don't want this to become another excavation into Andrea's effectiveness on the court, nor do I want this to be a post that laments his defensive and rebounding woes.
Keeping in line with our rebranding discussion, I'd like to discuss Andrea in one context; his importance in terms of altering the perception of the Toronto Raptors' basketball team.
Because right now, I'd hazard a guess and say it's not great.
(In fact I've done a little exercise with our other SB Nation bloggers regarding the team's perception which I'll be posting later this week, and I'm guessing the results won't be so positive.)
Changing the perception means winning games certainly, and as I discussed on Friday, this then syncs up well with a successful rebrand.
Again, this means not only a new logo, uniforms etc, but also a product that matches this new look and feel. The product in our case is hopefully on-court success, but I'd also argue part of this transformation involves the personnel who result in the product put forth for the fans. When you change the personnel, you not only impact the club's won-loss record, but also the perception the public has of the team, something we've seen many a time in NBA history.
A successful example of this would be the Detroit Pistons' in the last two decades. In the late 90's they transitioned from the skill and speed of the Grant Hill - Jerry Stackhouse era, to the gritty, defense-minded clubs of the early 2000's featuring Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, 'Sheed and others.
There are countless other examples, including the most recent NBA champion Dallas Mavericks, who went from being labelled as a "soft" team, to that of a "never-say-die" champ.
This transformation needs to take place in Toronto as well and luckily I'd argue, is already underway. The drafting of players like DeMar DeRozan and Ed Davis, have moved the club away from the "soft, Euro-team" stigma that unfortunately gets thrown about when discussing the Dinos.
Think the stigma doesn't exist?
Just hearken back to the recent drafting of Jonas Valanciunas for all the proof you need. It didn't matter that his game was more akin to Tyson Chandler than Vladimir Radmanovic, the bulk of the outcry from Raptors' fans was "oh no, here we go again."
As one of my media counterparts noted in relation to Jonas, "if his name had been Johnny Vegas and he had played at Kentucky, Raps' fans would be throwing a parade for Colangelo."
The stigma is there, and unfortunately one of the biggest reasons it still exists is because of Andrea Bargnani.
Regardless of how effective you think he is as an NBA player, and how much of a "fan" you are of his game, with Chris Bosh gone, it's Bargs that carries the "soft" torch because of the way he plays.
Is this fair?
Not necessarily.
However we all know that "Dirk soft," and "Andrea soft" are two entirely different levels on the "soft scale" so to speak, so it's not exactly an apples to apples compare.
The bottom line for me is that for this team to continue its reversal of fortunes, Andrea Bargnani has to go.
Again, forget stats, wins produced, 20 point a game scoring averages, forget everything.
Sometimes you simply need to make a change to alter the culture and perception of your club, a perception that directly influences everything from locker room banter, to on-court chemistry.
Sometimes this change also comes at a cost, in Toronto's case it may very well mean giving up a frustratingly talented player for a lot less, simply to signal a changing of the guard.
I'll point again to the Pistons for an example of this.
Detroit gave up a first round pick and one of the league's top scorers in Adrian Dantley for Mark Aguirre midway through the 1988-89 season. It seemed to be a high price to pay but Aguirre was a perfect fit off the bench for the Pistons, helping them to two straight NBA titles.
Maybe Andrea doesn't fetch an Aguirre for the Raps.
But I'd argue moving him somewhere far, far away would be another big step in turning around the image, culture and eventually success of the basketball team.
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I Will Go On Record Now
I saw Jonas play four or five games for Rytas this last May, four of his games at the FiBA 2011 U19 and three of his games with the Lithuania National team this month including the last game in which he outplayed Ibaka head to head.
Jonas is tougher than anyone of the other Raptors players including Amir though it is probably close.
Barring a major injury by the time he becomes 22 or 23 he will be a monster Center. In fact at this point I think he has what it takes mentally, physically and talent wise to become as good as any current Center in the league except for maybe Dwight. That will depend on how much bigger and stronger Jonas becomes as he grows up from being a teenager.
You can put this post in the lock box and take it out five years from now.
Man I hope you are right!
Because, that would be awesome. I am a fan of old school basketball with an emphasis on good, solid post play. I would LOVE to be fortunate enough to tune into a Raps game 3 nights a week and watch an actual talented Centre play. Don’t think that I have ever had the pleasure as a Raptors fan (maybe the closest being Antonio Davis??).
You Can Watch Him Against Spain This Week
This game will a home game for Lithuania so it should be an interesting game.
There should be a streaming of it on OleoTV, Sport TV 1
I am not sure of the date. It was originally mentioned as being Thurs Aug 18th but the game in Madrid was originally mentioned as being on Aug 14 but it was actually Sat Aug 13.
Just check the link early starting tomorrow. They show the GMT of all the games that they will be streaming live. Just go to Sport TV 1 and look for an icon of a basketball on the left. If you find one check the time and the teams. Make sure you check early in the day or you might miss it.
He did alright – the whole team got blown out of the water. Jonas actually held up really well when he was matched up with Ibaka at the end of the game.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes and No
1. They played them in Madrid and will play them a second time this week in Kaunas, Lithuania.
2. Whoever said Jonas didn’t play well was obviously not watching the game. He outplayed Ibaka head to head in the six minutes that they matched up. He also did a good job defending Pau including blocking a post up turn around jump shot in the lane by Pau. Jonas drew several fouls on Marc and Ibaka with moves off the dribble to the basket.
Jonas final line for that game was
Minutes 11
Points 10 FG 3-5, FT 4-6
Rebounds 3
Blocks 3
Steals 2
And only 2 PF – so his minutes weren’t limited by that, like in previous games.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Foul Problems
He did commit two against Spain in only 11 minutes.
Since he loves physical contact and is very aggressive on both ends of the court I expect he will always commit more than his fair share of fouls. Its hard not to pick up fouls when you are always in the thick of it near the basket. Just ask Amir. LOL
Yeah, but 2 in 11 still extrapolates to 33 minutes played before fouling out – so it’s not terrible. Just not great.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I Don't Expect It To Ever Be Low
However, I don’t think his foul problems will be as bad as Amir’s once Jonas gets some bulk to him. 4+ per 36 minutes over his career would not surprise me. However, one never knows what the future will hold regarding minutia. LOL
OK fair enough
I didn’t see the game so was getting 2nd and 3rd hand accounts. I guess it was because he was playing so well against Kids and bad teams that people saw this as his first real test against NBA level talent (Gasols and Ibaka) and he obviously wasn’t as dominant (which is to be expected considering his age).
I guess it was because he was playing so well against Kids
That is what he is; i.e. a “Kid” He dominated players his own age; i.e. 19.
I wouldn’t expect him at 19 years old to dominate NBA players who are still in their prime and started for NBA playoff teams. That would be insane.
Bang-up job covering the Brand issues in these dog days of a lock-out infused off-season. Would be great if you could get someone from the Raptors organization to comment. I realize it would probably be a useless, bland statement scrutinized by the corporate communications/public relations head, but who knows, maybe someone would feel chatty that day and disclose that they’ve been toying with the idea for years…
Regarding Bargnani and the rebranding… I think Bargnani is symptomatic of Colangelo’s often offense-centric, sometime Euro-centric philosophy to building a team that would play an "exciting" brand of basketball that you could sell tickets with (similar to the brand he sold in Phoenix with some success ). However, there were/are some fundamental flaws with this logic. First, "exciting" basketball does not necessarily equate with winning basketball. Furthermore, Colangelo’s selection of players based on mainly (if not exclusively in some cases) their offensive acumen – with an aim to bring the exciting offensive basketball brand – directly got in the way of winning basketball games. Winning basketball will trump exciting basketball every day of the week, especially in a market that lionizes and glorifies hard work, grit and determination. That is why we have seen a consistent year over year drop in attendance for Toronto Raptors games for the last 4 consecutive years.
To give Colangelo credit, there seems to be green shoots of optimism that maybe, just maybe, he has finally got over himself and realized he was wrong and started to move in the opposite direction. For example: hiring Casey (the Colangelo from two years ago would be hiring someone from the Italian league – this was a good hire, so far), drafting Ed Davis (kinda fell in his lap, but at least he didn’t make a mess of it), Amir Johnson re-signing, Jonas, drafting (good early signs so far) and maybe most importantly – the hiring of a new GM. Maybe with the hiring of the new GM Colangelo is actually saying: "woah, I made a mess and maybe I need some help on the basketball side of things". Which I congratulate him for coming to terms with.
So maybe there is hope for the Raptors Brand, but Colangelo needs to fully exercise the ghosts of past failures and rid this team of Bargnani. When it comes down to it, he doesn’t fit with any new "winning" brand, he makes too much money to come off the bench and he’s not good enough or productive enough to take minutes from either of Ed Davis or Amir Johnson (and apparently he can’t play centre). So for the sake of the brand, the sake of the fans and the franchise, it makes total sense to trade Bargnani now and start anew in earnest. You can complain about the overuse of statistics all you like, but when every statistical analysis, whatever way you slice it, points to the same thing or in the same direction, maybe its time to stop fighting the headwind of reality and deal with the problem at hand.
with an aim to bring the exciting offensive basketball brand – directly got in the way of winning basketball games. Winning basketball will trump exciting basketball every day of the week, especially in a market that lionizes and glorifies hard work, grit and determination
I agree sort of. The Pistons were still my long time favorite team in 2004 when they won it all, but to tell you the truth they were IMO boring as hell. Yes, I was a big fan of Ben Wallace and Billups but I still thought that that core roster was a boring team to watch at least on TV. Having said that as I recall they did sell out the Palace at Auburn Hills for all their games their in 2003-04.
I can understand that perspective. I disagree though. I guess it’s a personal taste thing. I enjoyed watching them play defence and their ability to completely take a team (including some of the best in the business) out of their offensive rhythm. They also played some of the best team basketball of the modern era, getting the absolute maximum sum out of their individually average parts. Again, it’s a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing". For those that appreciate basketball the way it is supposed to be played (selfless team offense with great ball movement and balance, coupled with fantastic commitment to defense) they were a pleasure to watch. My own hunch tells me that this brand of basketball would "sell" very well in the T-Dot.
I Hear Ya
My problem is that I couldn’t help but compare them to the “Bad Boys” who in addition to IMO being better than the “Going To Work” group were a lot more exciting. In addition the “Bad Boys” had more than their fair share of “characters”
I loved that team. They were second favorite basketball team of all time after the Tarkanian “Running Rebels” glory year teams at UNLV. Those Tarkanian teams were for me the most exciting basketball teams I have ever seen bar none.
Great comment MAS.
Think that’s about as succinct a summary on the topic of Colangelo’s management as I’ve ever seen.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Aug 19, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
"But I'd argue moving him somewhere far, far away would be another big step in turning around the image, culture and eventually success of the basketball team."
This says it all for me. I still maintain that the media named “xenophobia” from fans after the Jonas draft was an indictment not of European players, but rather an indictment of Andrea Bargnani.
Outside of a handful of people who post on this site, I have never talked to an individual in the past 2 years who says Andrea should be starting. Fans will ofcourse change their minds IF he would even change his game…. but what are the chances of that happening? After 5 years, almost nil.
Moving away from Andrea (just as moving away, albeit forceably from Bosh) is an enourmous step towards ‘re-branding’ the team.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Aug 15, 2011 2:12 PM EDT reply actions
"This says it all for me. I still maintain that the media named "xenophobia" from fans after the Jonas draft was an indictment not of European players, but rather an indictment of Andrea Bargnani."
Bang on! I would add it was also more of an indictment of Colangelo’s track record than any comment on European players in general.
I disagree – I think the anti-Euro sentiment among the casual fan reaches a lot further back. Certainly at least to the Araujo draft. Bargnani has certainly continued that – but I think it is more of a Raptors thing than a Colangelo thing for most fans.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
-1
Got to disagree with you here. I don’t recall any anti-Euro sentiment, rightly or wrongly, at least not to the same degree until the Colangelo/Bargnani era (arujo wasn’t even European). There may have been some odd balls before, but it metastasized only after Colangelo/Bargnani.
As ever, I recall things differently than you – and the casual fan uses ‘European’ to mean non-American, as you well know.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I Agree However
Does the casual fan refer to players from Canada as European?
I guess we will find out more about the answer to this as more Canadian players start playing in the NBA.
Definately recall things differntly, and I don’t think I’m out on a limb with my account of the timelines of any anti-Euro sentiment. I think if we were to take a straw pole of Raps fans we’d find that the anti-Euro sentiment is much more recent and more related to BC/Bargnani than Arujo. And as you know, only an idiot would refer to any international player as European.
I Think The Term "European"
when used in the context of basketball players sometimes seems to be put on anyone who started out their pro career or played a good deal of it over in the EuroLeague which interestingly enough even includes some teams from Asia like Israel.
The State of Israel (Hebrew: About this sound מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medīnat Yisrā’el; Arabic: دَوْلَة إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat ʾIsrāʾīl), is a parliamentary republic in Western Asia, located on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea
LOL
Thanks for the explanation of what Isreal is. It’s OK Buddah, you don’t have to link to what is already common knowledge for it to be true. LOL
The only reason Israel plays in the Euro League for pretty much every sport, not only b-ball, is theat they couldn’t very well play against their neighbors….
Iran defended their William Jones Cup title. They overcame South Korea in the championship game tonight to clinch the third straight title at the tournament. Hamed Haddadi (218-C-85) had a monster night tallying 35 points, 18 boards and 7 blocks to pace Iran.
is theat they couldn’t very well play against their neighbors….
Do they have anyone that stop Haddadi?
I was just agreeing with what you said. I assumed that it was a typo on your part and what you meant to write was
is that they couldn’t play very well against their neighbors. LOL
I disagree aswell
Jorge and Rasho haven’t gotten anything close to “anti-euro” treatment. Barbossa this year.
Jose, it really depends on who you ask, but before his injury he was the PG of choice. Even now I don’t hear many people saying he’s not a good player because he’s European (rather people’s criticism of his D).
Araujo draft I don’t think had very much to do with him being international (he also played NCAA), but rather him being a huge reach (and then a complete bust).
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Aug 15, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I think if you asked the average Raptors’ fan who followed the team around the time of Hoffa, they would say that they viewed Araujo as a big, slow, white guy. Not a European, or even a Brazilian…just a “bust waiting to happen.”
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Aug 19, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree with this column
As I said the other day, I neither love or hate Bargnani, but I think it is time for a fresh start for the Raptors and for him. Send him somewhere for a short-term lane-clogging big man and a draft pick and that would be good enough for me. If you can get more than that in return then even better.
Rebranding - Rebooting - Rebuilding ..... or just Retool.
Some of the best rebrands have occurred in the same fashion, from Apple to Old Spice [Rebranding Part Deux]
Rebranding can have many interpretations. Old Spice is viewed as a classic example of this process, by making an "Old" product – new again. Apple is a bad example, as without Microsoft’s 150 million dollar infusion, Apple might not be here today. If Microsoft wasn’t concerned about being viewed as a monopolizing entity – foresight back then? – Apple & all those Macs wouldn’t be here today.
Years ago there was the Amiga 2000, a machine that I couldn’t afford back then, but that was better than any Mac or PC of that time. The Amiga died, simply because of Commodore’s marketing Department. The price didn’t help though – although Apple has managed to override this issue with its’ Macs.
However I don’t want this to become another excavation into Andrea’s effectiveness on the court, nor do I want this to be a post that laments his defensive and rebounding woes.
The bottom line for me is that for this team to continue its reversal of fortunes, Andrea Bargnani has to go.
Maybe I’m reading too much into these statements, but are these not hypocritical statements? Is Rebranding the Toronto Raptors , really just another Bargnani bashing?
Think the stigma doesn’t exist? Just hearken back to the recent drafting of Jonas Valanciunas for all the proof you need. [re: Euro Bashing]
When JV was drafted, all the ignorance in Raptorland came out. As fans watched highlights, or even games themselves, that ignorance eroded away. Not to say he’ll be some saviour, but Jonas is pumping up the bi-polar part of fandom.
Sometimes you simply need to make a change to alter the culture and perception of your club, a perception that directly influences everything from locker room banter, to on-court chemistry. ……… Sometimes this change also comes at a cost, in Toronto’s case it may very well mean giving up a frustratingly talented player for a lot less, simply to signal a changing of the guard.
Raptors have been changing every damn year. I’m tired of blowing it up, and going after that Superstar in every draft. I hate tanking. I hate this losing mentality we have – that suggests it’s better to continue, so we can get that "Saviour". I hate that MLSE has never stepped up to the plate – despite all this BS that they’re engaged. Not once have they spent into the luxury tax. Blue Jays spend – although it’s tough keeping up to the Yankees & Red Sox. The Argos used to spend – nee Ismail – even if it didn’t always translate into success. The Leafs – before the Salary Hard cap – used to spend that extra. Maybe not in Harold’s day, but they have.
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We have to acknowledge, that to get a player to Toronto, we had to pay a premium. With a new CBA going forward, this approach will need adjustment. But it still doesn’t take away my belief, that premium pricing will remain in some form.
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Raptor management needs to prove to the fans, that they are willing to take that extra step to bring success here. Until then, any Rebranding is simply window dressing.
JMO
"Maybe I’m reading too much into these statements, but are these not hypocritical statements? Is Rebranding the Toronto Raptors , really just another Bargnani bashing?"
Perfect example of why it’s so difficult to have a rational discussion when it comes to Bargnani…
Rebranding disguised as a Bargnani Thread
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I understand that Andrea is part of the brand, but IMO this is not about rebranding. It’s about AB.
Perfect example of why it’s so difficult to have a rational discussion when it comes to Bargnani…
MAS11 – you know as well as many …. I don’t shy away from discussing Bargnani rational or not. But I believe in calling a spade a spade. And discussing it as such.
Saying “I don’t want this to become another excavation into Andrea’s effectiveness on the court” kinda cuts off that debate. It’s like having a conversation with yourself – with no chance for back and forth discussion. All the while espousing one’s views.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Aug 15, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
“Saying "I don’t want this to become another excavation into Andrea’s effectiveness on the court" kinda cuts off that debate. It’s like having a conversation with yourself – with no chance for back and forth discussion. All the while espousing one’s views.”
Ok fair enough. I suppose to propose that Bargnani is actually a good thing for the Raptors’ brand you would arguably have to argue that he is effective on the court. However, I think that we are way past that (as every measurement available argues definitively that he is not effective on the court) and as such, maybe Franchise was trying to avoid having that discussion again as it has been resolved emphatically.
Here's the thing about rebranding
And this is not to pick on DeRozan (nor to deflect from Andrea’s issues).
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We have a SG that many fans see an upside to – Budda excepted – and define as a corner piece. And while I’m in the group who believes Demar can continue to excel (with the right coaching), it’s still hard to fathom a SG who can’t really shoot like I’d envision shooting guards do. 3 pointers are not the end of the world, but they’re an important aspect to the game.
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Raptors have a Shooting Guard who can’t nail the floor stretching Three. And who can’t defend – although I tend to believe that’s a symptom of poor defensive coaching. Both of these traits need to get better. And when that comes (I’m an optimist), rebranding can grab hold of this “rewired” ability, and run with it.
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We need to concentrate on developing our young guys – in a proper manner. And that includes not throwing them to the fire (as a Starter). Then junking them when things don’t go as planned. To me, that’s the rebranding we need to do. At least with the suits who make the calls.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Aug 15, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
“And that includes not throwing them to the fire (as a Starter). Then junking them when things don’t go as planned.”
umm when have then done this? Araujo and….?
Jonas
Ed Davis
Demar
Andrea
Charlie V.
Joey Graham
Araujo
Bosh
Bradley
Mo Pete
Those are the Raps first round picks for the last 10 years. How many of those guys have been “junked”?
Demar has been given “franchise”-esq treatment without yet deserving it
Andrea has been given “franchise” -esq treatment without yet deserving it
Charlie V was traded for TJ ford (hardly “junking”)
Joey Graham was given 4 years here that he shouldn’t have
Araujo was junked… but I hardly think that was undeserved
Bosh was given “franchise” treatment and (I don’t think) ever deserved it
Bradley was junked, by the entire NBA.
Mo Pete was here for 7 seasons.
sowhere is it that this team keeps throwing guys to the fire and then junking them?
I have to ask… do you even actually follow this team, because your sense of Raptors history and what has actually happened seem to be 2 seperate things.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Aug 15, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I do follow this team - more so than I admit to my friends
umm when have then done this? Araujo and….?
In Raptor history you’re right – I was somewhat unfair in making my comment. In the realm of Toronto sports history, I’ve probably been tainted by past moves that encompass anything sport-like in the city. This “Toronto syndrome” I referred to, is more indicative of past Leaf & Blue Jay history – although more weighted towards the former.
My concern that I have for the Raptors, is that we not go down this path. And that was what I tried to define – unsuccessfully I guess. IMO, Demar was pushed too fast into a Starting role. DD seems to be okay so far, but that’s assuming he’ll resolve his shortcomings.
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I also worry that some will expect Davis to jump into a Starting role in his 2nd season. And that there’s support for Bayless starting. Or that too much will be expected from JJ – when he should really be learning the position from the Bench. I find we’re rushing these players, and taking a chance of emulating Leaf-style history.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Aug 15, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
“Learning the position from the bench”
to what benifit? Why do we not want the future players on this team to get the best experience available? This isn’t a make the playoffs season (or atleast shouldn’t be), its a develop for the future season.
The team needs to find a balance between the best player available and the future players on this team.
Jonas, Ed/Amir, Johnson and DD should be the starters come next season. Bayless I’m torn on, but I’d put him in sharing minutes with Jose.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Aug 15, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Joey actually was junked. Remember he started to show signs in BC’s first year and they re-upped him only the team then went out and got Kapono, Delfino and Moon to take all of his minutes. Sure he might have worked harder but we will never know whether he did or not but we know during the most important years of his career he was buried on the bench and probably should have been playing. Just my opinion.
re: Joey Graham
That whole wing rotation is a key memory from that version of the team isn’t it :-)
Joey Graham was an old, old rookie. I think he entered the league at 23 years old. Due to his advanced age, I think that the Raptors switched gears in what they expected from him after a few seasons. The kind of lowered expectations that are harder to make when a player has signed their second contract already based on potential they have yet to realize.
They’d gotten themselves a physical rebounding wing that could shoot the three, and handle a bit too (Delfino). They also choose to give developmental minutes to a athletic project player Jamario Moon. Strong and athletic were some of the few things that Joey had going for him. He wasn’t just buried, he was relegated to “just in case the light bulb comes on status” When Mitchell made the comment about dumming the playbook down from ABCD to just A (2005-2006 season), I think he was referring to the two rookies in the rotation, Charlie V and Joey Graham. I recall the year Luke Jackson joined the Raptors part way through the season (2006-2007) In a Doug Smith blog, it was mentioned that Joey Graham was the only non-rookie that attended the same after-practice reviews to help new players learn the system.
I will say that in a way he was similar to Araujo. Both were examples of Raptor draft picks that were older, and thus they didn’t have as much development left to go as say a Derozan, who if he stayed in school would be a senior this upcoming season. They were also both physically mature, so you couldn’t project a rosier future for them once they filled out.
The upside, if one tries hard to see it, was that they were able to turn the page on both of them without risking a second contract to squeeze out any latent potential. And given their fates since leaving the Raptors, I think it was the right call.
DeMar
I think this is a very strong point. There’s lots of negative attention always thrown Bargs’ way, but DeMar is about a year away himself from drawing some heavy scrutiny.
As you all know, I’m not a giant DeMar fan either, and I too worry about a 2 who can’t stretch the floor or defend very well.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Aug 19, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
The Leafs – before the Salary Hard cap – used to spend that extra. Maybe not in Harold’s day, but they have.
Not a good example. Spending the money didn’t accomplish much.
Blue Jays spend – although it’s tough keeping up to the Yankees & Red Sox.
You do realize that the Jays currently have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball? Even if the Jays get back to their stated maximum, they will still be spending only 1/2 of what the Yankees spend.
I hate that MLSE has never stepped up to the plate
They did those bad contracts with Davis etc to build around Vince. I think that counts as stepping up to the plate. It was completely misguided and foolish, but they did spend money.
Those early 2000s teams have been the only ones where spending over the cap could have been justified. Yes, the Raptors perhaps missed the boat, but given Vince’s toughness issues, perhaps if they’d gone over the cap, they still would not have done anything.
To clarify
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Maple Leafs – yes, spending didn’t accomplish much – what has for the Leafs? The Leaf situation does show that going after star players, and giving up draft picks doesn’t normally work well. Or giving up “home grown” players (our draft picks), so that we can get more draft picks, also doesn’t work. This goes to my belief that you need an identity – nee players – in order to get fans. Sure, we all love to win, but if you don’t know the players, fans lose interest.
I’ve had this latter argument before (and quite a bit of disagreement). But – IMO – Players and personalities drive a team – and in turn the fans. A revolving door doesn’t do that very well.
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Blue Jays stopped spending with Vernon out the door. But in their glory days, they outspent EVERYONE. Including the Yanks & Red Sox. For their 2 World Series wins, their payroll was tops one year, and second the next (or vice versa – I can’t recall which).
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MLSE has made some bad contracts. And I’m not saying they should’ve spent over the luxury tax limit this past year. Or before. But ….. in the days of Vince – they whimpered at the wrong time. Suffice to say, to overcome the Canadian stigma (as Bosh alluded to), Raptors have to do something that NO OTHER team needs to do – in attracting players to ply their skills in a “foreign land” – pay a premium.
Cities like Cleveland and such, obviously have to overcome their stigmas, but that’s more a reality of what they have to offer – in lifestyle and amenities. Toronto is a great city – one of better cities in North America – yet it can’t attract players. Even when they have Star players like Bosh. It boils down to Canada, whether we like that or not – an opinion I’ve stated ad nauseam.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Aug 15, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
re Revolving Door and Paying a Premium
re: Revolving Door
I think that the Raptors and Leafs should both proceed with a minimum of meddling from any MLSE busybodies. The reason? Their burned out trying to keep up with the constant revolving door that is Toronto FC. It’s hard to look at any toronto sports site not see a new mention of a player being parachuted in to “fill a need”, or “get the roster closer to the manager’s vision.” This has been going on since inception, and its getting to the point where the casual fan has no idea who to believe. Players that are brought in for quality x and shipped out for quality y. The most frustrating thing is that not only does each regime seem to have a different idea of what makes a good footballer, but they seem to be hellbent on tearing up the roster both when the first arrive, and on an ongoing basis afterwards.
Things seem to be going in a positive direction under Aron Winter, if only because alot of thought seems to have been put into his selection (ie hiring Jurgen Klinsmann as an outside consultant in the hiring process) However, I will withhold judgment until I see some concrete signs that something lasting is actually being built.
re: Paying a Premium
I disagree. Not that paying a premium is sometimes necessary. I disagree with the implication that Raptor teams other then then the early 2000 playoff teams merited paying a premium. I am going to interpret “paying a premium” comment to mean entering luxury tax territory. In the NBA there are situations, where players just won’t take the money. Even if its in excess. For example, I recall references in the media to Colangelo having gone to Trevor Ariza with a better contract then the one he ultimately accepted with the Lakers. And the Raptors aren’t quite alone on this front, In the abyss of the post-Jordan years, there were times that Chicago couldn’t sign a free agent, even if they greeted them with wheelbarrows of cash at the airport. The Bulls were a mess, and as a potential free agent I would have been weary of placing myself in a situation which showed no signs of getting better. Now that they’ve gotten themselves Derek Rose, and are proceeding on an upward trajectory their free agent luck has changed. They signed Boozer, but were in serious running for Dwayne Wade, had the whole Miami Big Three situation not gone done.
The Russian League has plenty of oil-rich teams, however, I’m sure agents will only steer their clients to organizations they perceive as a good fit and are good enough compete in the Euroleague.
Lance Young"…The money might be ok, but the situation might not be; playing in Russia versus playing in Italy or Turkey or some of these other places. And there’s certain places I wouldn’t want to send my guys.
“Raptors have been changing every damn year. I’m tired of blowing it up, and going after that Superstar in every draft.”
I’m sorry what? Where have I been? What I remember is them NOT blowing it up and trying to get a high pick in the draft. I remember this team chasing vets and overpriced players in hopes of making the playoffs. Hell, the organization was expecting the team to make the playoffs until part way into the season (as per BC himself in the post season presser)
“Raptor management needs to prove to the fans, that they are willing to take that extra step to bring success here”
umm they have been. JO’s huge contract, Hedo’s 10 mil contract, offered Bosh a max contract. What do you want them to do magically spend money they are unable to (cap sytem) on players that don’t want to come here (see Raptors history), without a player yet deserving anything close to a max contract (no superstar) and become the Lakers? The very problem with this team right now is they have been doing the very things you want this team to do. Chasing vets, giving out to big contracts to below their value players, in hopes of making the playoffs one more time. Rather than clearing cap space and over priced players, developing youth and collecting picks.
I’ll fully admit that at the time I may not have been as passionate(?) as I am now about it, but I wish this team would have ACTUALLY blew it up 2-3 years ago (trade Bosh, Bargnani, keep JO until his contract expired or a team wanted it to chase a ‘summer of FA’ player, let Jose rest when he was injured, not sign Hedo. It does look like the Raps are finally starting to rebuild (but I do also feel I may be a bit quick saying that given BC’s history), but to say he’s been doing this “every damn year” is a joke.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Aug 15, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
These points I can't quite religuish on
I’m sorry what? Where have I been? What I remember is them NOT blowing it up ….
Sorry … but when 9 players are exchanged, I consider that a blow-up. Some call it a rebuild – semantics? If I’m not mistaken, these wholesale changes have happened too frequently, especially for a team that needs stability.
Since 2006-07, only Jose & Bargnani remain. And we all know that JC shouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for MJ. And if some Raptor fans had their way, Bargnani wouldn’t have started the 2010 season either – which would’ve made for the possibility of no players from 2006 being around for the start of 2010. As well, during this time period we’ve had dueling Point Guards – twice. And Rasho in, out, and back in again. If I didn’t know better, my response to your point would be… “where have you been?”
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"Raptor management needs to prove to the fans, that they are willing to take that extra step to bring success here" ………. umm they have been. JO’s huge contract, Hedo’s 10 mil contract, offered Bosh a max contract. What do you want them to do magically spend money
Absorbing JO’s contract was a combination of giving Andrea breathing space to develop, as well as a future expiring contract to move in O’Neal’s final year (ala Chess). That changed with the TJ Ford mess.
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“Bosh was offered a max contract” – speculation ….. no one knows the real truth – aside from BC & Bosh (and their entourages).
In saying MLSE has not stepped up to the plate, I have one caveat to that statement. They may have tried, but I haven’t noticed. For a team that needs to pay a premium – salary to clarify for Yardly – I just haven’t seen it enough.
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We all have our opinion on whether MLSE has made concerted efforts to improve this team without limits – it’s mine that they haven’t.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Aug 15, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
1. you can call it a ‘blow-up’ if you like, but it was no where near “going after a superstar every draft” (which is the main point). It was chasing vets, spending money and trying to make the playoffs. It was the exact opposite.
2. I think you are mixed up on your time line. TJ was traded for JO. So the TJ ford mess had nothing to do with moving JO prior to his expiring contract… he was traded for Marion in an attempt to make the playoffs that year, and then open cap space for a FA (who turned out to be Hedo) to try and make the playoffs again the following year. Again spending money, chasing vets and not accepting the necessity of a rebuild.
3. Bosh was offered a max contract extension, as said by BC, twice (in 2008 and again in 2010).
The Raps may need to pay a premium on players, I agree with that, but this concept of just “spend money” is ridiculous. It needs to be pay the right players at the right time. Right now is not the time UNLESS some unexpected opportunity comes up. BC needs to hold the course and do this right… not try to bandaid and crazy glue a run to the playoffs.
I think you are feeling some losing weariness… ie. tired of this team losing. Which is completely understandable. But the reason this team is in this situation right now is because of those very things I talked about above. Had BC accepted reality 2-3 years ago, this team would be 2-3 years ahead of where they are now (assuming he doesn’t try to rebuild with one dimensional, inefficient players… which again I wouldn’t put past him). Get ready for 2 or 3 more years of it to.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Aug 15, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Absorbing JO’s contract was a combination of giving Andrea breathing space to develop, as well as a future expiring contract to move in O’Neal’s final year (ala Chess). That changed with the TJ Ford mess.
I think you are mixed up on your time line. TJ was traded for JO.
This isn’t a timeline mistake. More a pathway: Andrea faltering > JO w/an expiring contract > TJ Ford mess. The end result never really worked out well.
IMO, that pathway should’ve been: Andrea faltering > JO w/an expiring contract > Andrea recover (while coming off the Bench) > JO trade / free agency / draft picks. That was the way it should’ve went down.
Bosh was offered a max contract extension, as said by BC, twice (in 2008 and again in 2010).
I don’t recall. Then again, I don’t recall a lot.
But from what I remember with interviews I’ve seen, BC tended to dance around specifics in his contract talks. Which I always thought was normal.
I think you are feeling some losing weariness… ie. tired of this team losing. Which is completely understandable.
You’re probably right.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Aug 16, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Apple is a bad example, as without Microsoft’s 150 million dollar infusion, Apple might not be here today. If Microsoft wasn’t concerned about being viewed as a monopolizing entity – foresight back then? – Apple & all those Macs wouldn’t be here today.
Get what you’re saying, that without Microsoft, there would BE no Apple, but that doesn’t change the fact that their brand strategy is one of the greatest of all time. Sure, without Microsoft, they wouldn’t have had the cash to execute it, but that doesn’t make it any less brilliant or powerful.
Maybe I’m reading too much into these statements, but are these not hypocritical statements? Is Rebranding the Toronto Raptors , really just another Bargnani bashing?
Well I guess it depends on what you consider “Bargnani Bashing.” If that means writing anything negative about him, factual or anecdotal, then yes, I suppose the article was “bashing” him.
However I TRIED to simply state the facts of the matter, and unfortunately they were negative, so I guess you have to decide for yourself if you feel that’s “bashing” or not.
On the last point, I agree, it really comes down to management.
Coaches have come and gone, so have players. It’s not like there’s zero fan support, or no money to put behind a team. So that leaves management as the issue here.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Aug 19, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Ty Lawson Just Joined Weems At Zalgaris
Sonny Weems: Looks like me and the little homie @TyLawson3 will be on the same team this year again!! Twitter
They Should Have One Of The Top Teams In The EuroLeague in 2011-12
They are loaded and I think improved themselves more than Rytas has done so far in the off-season, even with Jonas probably playing a prominent role with them in 2011-12
bczalgiris BC Kauno Zalgiris
Our newcomer Sonny Weems chose to wear number 24 on his green&white jersey. Hooray! :)
29 Jul
What Do You Do With Your Time?
I can only guess. RFLMAO
I actually don’t think Buddah is a person at all. I think he’s actually an algorithm driven software that was programmed to scour the web for LINKS and given a rudimentary artificial intelligence in order to formulate comments on Raptors HQ about basketball and right wing politics. His programmer was also a big Amir Johnson fan. LOL! Just playing Buddah!
This year will be an interesting experiment indeed. Will be fun to see how NBA stars, starters, role players and marginal NBA players fair in the Euroleagues…
re: NBA players in Europe
Would make a good reality show?
Do you think any North American sports networks, ones that lack an NBA license, would be willing to send a contingent to Europe keep folks updated on various goings on in the Euroleagues? I am guessing ESPN and everyone else is contractually obligated to steer clear of any kind of agreement that circumvents the NBA lockout.
This discussion isn't worth the space
I have a severe problem with the argument being made for re-branding of the Raps.
Let me start by saying that the Raptor idea was kinda silly from day one, just trying to hitch a ride on the success of Jurassic Park. Thankfully, they’ve removed the silly raptor dribbling the basketball, and have gone with a nice stylized raptor claw which is actually quite nice on clothing. The red and white motif is simple and represents the Canadian background well.
Secondly, the argument here seems to hinge on one thing to make the Raps a success: winning. If you don’t like being beaten about: win. If your labelled soft: win. If your not selling enough merch: win. Rebranding is silly without winning, and why would you rebrand if your winning.
Can you stop taking up all this time with this article and get better coverage of the Raps players and front office and what their doing in this strenuous off season? especially as it relates to getter bet to …. say it with me…..WIN
Can you stop taking up all this time with this article and get better coverage of the Raps players and front office and what their doing in this strenuous off season?
Here’s the thing Corddry.
The HQ has had some coverage of players. But since all any players are doing is playing some meaningless drew league games or signing to play overseas, that doesn’t fill a whole lot of time.
And the front office? They are literally not allowed to do ANYTHING to improve the team this offseason. There’s a lockout, in case you hadn’t heard. The HQ has reported on the only news to come out of the front office since the lockout, the hiring away of the Lakers’ guy as Director of Sports Science.
So if this article wasn’t here, there wouldn’t be an article. And guess what? Get used to it. This lockout is probably going to stretch into the season, if not the entire season, so there won’t BE any Raps news for MONTHS.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 16, 2011 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
there won’t BE any Raps news for MONTHS.
Could be longer than that. Never underestimate the power of greed to make people do stupid things.
Absolutely. I fully expect this entire season to be canceled.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 16, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The HQ has had some coverage of players. But since all any players are doing is playing some meaningless drew league games or signing to play overseas, that doesn’t fill a whole lot of time.
There is tons of stuff on Jonas and will be more on Sonny once the EuroLeague season starts in I believe late September. Those games are for real.
So while it is not specifically Raptors stuff regarding the current roster it is meaningful stuff regarding the Raptors #1 pick and Sonny who could return in 2012-13.
In Addition
Jose and Andrea may sign to play in Europe for 2012-13. If they do then you have two more Raptors players to follow in real games. Leandro might also play in Europe or Brazil.
I admit its not NBA games but eh it is Raptors related.
Do you mean 2011-12?
And I agree – there has been plenty of coverage, between articles here and fanposts.
by dhackett1565 on Aug 16, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Kleiza Is Rehabing - Photo
His right knee looks really really ugly.
If the Raptors drafted you, how would you feel about playing in Toronto? Perry Jones: I’d be upset because I would have to go to customs every day. Really? Perry Jones: Yeah, I don’t like going to customs that much
The feeling is mutual
I don’t like Perry Jones much compared to other prospects who could be available in next year’s draft. His play last year was pretty up-and-down and he seemed soft. I suppose he might have a breakout season this year and dispel all the criticisms, but I won’t be holding my breath.
Starter Or Not
Amir at least is trying to build a core unit that wants to stay in Toronto.
Even when you have three SS okay 2.5 like Miami it takes time for a team to gel. Yes Boston was maybe the exception but but PIerce and Perkins had been together since the 2003-04 season and Rondo had been there one season before the Big Three.
A team needs a core to stay together for a number of seasons before they become big winners.
Hopefully the Raptors can build off of Amir’s love for Toronto and his desire to get a core to stay together. We shall see.
Barbosa To Play In Brazil
With the NBA lockout, Leandro Barbosa hit with Flamengo
Owner returns to Toronto Raptors when the strike ends in the league
For GLOBOESPORTE.COM Rio de Janeiro
print
Leandro wear red and black until the NBA lockout ends. In late July, the International Basketball Federation (FIBA) authorized the players under contract to play in any team during the stoppage of the American League. And the owner will defend the club from Rio de Janeiro in this period. The contract has not been signed, but a meeting on Thursday will formalize the partnership. For now, the advice of the athlete does not confirm the deal, but sources ensure the club’s trading. When the standoff ends, Leandro Barbosa will return to play for the Toronto Raptors.
Lagun Aro Pursuing Ajinca
Lagun Aro GBC wants to put the icing on the template with the NBA Alex Ajinca
Igor Mintegui – August 18, 2011 at 12:20
For several days, in social networks has been spreading the message that Lagun Aro GBC was in negotiations for the post of 5 remaining to be filled in the template with a player entity. A signing that consummated, would qualify as a real bombshell. Now he finally reveals his name. Juanjo Lusa journalist in editing Gipuzkoa El Mundo Deportivo reports that claimed by the team player Sebastian is nothing less than the Frenchman Alex Ajinca (2.15/23 years).
Ajinca, which is currently a free agent, would be negotiating with the club of San Sebastián. One of the biggest obstacles would be to include the much-touted NBA escape clause, which, if exercised, would leave the player in case the end of the lockout and be interested in any NBA franchise player
Evolution of NBA Team Logos
I like the current logo better than the original
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