The Caliper Test, Bosh, And Bargnani
by Yardly on Jul 5, 2011 9:48 PM EDT
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http://hoopsaddict.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/interview-with-caliper-ceo-dr-herb-greenberg/
June 7, 2007
Dr. Greenberg: Chris Bosh was a guy who we grossly underestimated. We never said that he couldn’t do it; we didn’t see how good he could be through the test. He’s one of the very few who I would say we underestimated. In basketball, we underestimated Karl Malone. We didn’t say "don’t draft him," but we didn’t say he was a "can’t miss." We just sort of said, "If he’s got the talent, go ahead." He and Mitch Richmond are the two that I can name that we didn’t see the superstar in them. We saw positive things, but on balance, we said, "It’s neutral. If you love him, go ahead." It wasn’t like, "Stay away from him." ...
Almost as a balance to the Chris Bosh thing: did you read the article about Bargnani? That’s the kind of thing we’re very, very proud of. We did some … I wouldn’t say "arm twisting," because they liked him, but they knew they’d get a lot of criticism for drafting him. I can tell you right now: He will be one of the top eight or ten centers in NBA history. They’re happy with it, we’re happy with it. In fact, a lot of that Raptors team: Mo Peterson was one of our picks, about six or seven kids on that team were our picks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=espnmag/bargnani
February 28, 2007
For years, NBA teams have used the Caliper Profile to evaluate potential draft picks. The Caliper is a personality profile used by numerous corporations and organizations to measure one's capacity to excel in specific situations. Over the past 24 years, Caliper has assessed more than 20,000 athletes, including NBA players from Detroit, San Antonio, Denver and Phoenix. Colangelo has long been sold on the system. When he heard how Bargnani measured up, he nearly dropped the phone.
"They said his upside and potential were off the charts," Colangelo says from the tunnel of the Air Canada Centre as Bargnani drains a three against the Cavaliers. "They said, 'Out of all the athletes we've profiled, we've never seen anything like this.' "
The test showed that Bargnani is virtually oblivious to what others think of him. And his tremendous ability to block out such potentially negative pressures enables him to focus completely on the task at hand. So the expectations and anxieties that come with being the No.1 pick, or the only Italian-born player in the league, or even taking a game-winning shot, don't even register with him.
IMHO
The things that Bargnani was supposedly good at could have been a double-edged sword. Greenberg danced around his Bosh answer. Maybe they thought Bosh lacked the innate confidence of Bargnani, as if that's the only means to success? I don't know. At this point in time, its clear that one player put the work in to better himself physically and skill-wise. As a rookie, was Bosh was one of the skinniest player's I've ever seen rock the Raptor colors, aside from maybe Keon Clark. He also came in as a freshman, the youngest Raptor since ... Tracy McGrady?.
What kind of work does Bargnani put into his weaknesses?
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Raptors-GM-thinks-Bargnani-can-become-a-good-reb?urn=nba-wp1713
Tue Apr 19 2011
At one memorable point in Bryan Colangelo's end-of-season press conference on Monday, the Raptors GM referred to Andrea Bargnani, the club's starting centre, as "the enigma of enigmas, to you and many." Colangelo called the Italian "far from a perfect player." And he was only getting warmed up.
"I don't know if he's ever going to be a better defensive player than he is. Can he be a better rebounder? Absolutely," Colangelo said of Bargnani. "And that becomes, I believe, a mindset. It's something that we talked about. It's a little late to be having this conversation now, as I indicated to Andrea post-season. We know he can rebound, but he doesn't focus on it. . . . That's a desire thing. And that's something he's going to have to come to grips with."
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I find it hilarious
reading old notes and reports on Bargnani…. and just how ridiculous they can be.
This one though… its spot on. There is simply no way the negative comments and criticisms about him have hit home.
“virtually oblivious to what others think of him”
couldn’t have put it better myself. Includes the coach, the team and the fans.
“even taking a game-winning shot, don’t even register with him.”
How precise is this…. didn’t even register with him against New Jersey to take a game winning shot.
I think they got the test right… the problem was the expected results of the analysis. I’m not even joking here. It could easily be he cares so little the result is so little production on the court. You can even go to some of his quotes. (“I guess I’m just lazy”, “I can do the hard stuff so I SHOULD be able to do everything else”) He just doesn’t care…
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 5, 2011 11:56 PM EDT reply actions
"virtually oblivious to what others think of him"
Sounds like a virtually uncoachable prima donna … which by actual definition is Italian for first-lady… lol
"the Truth"
I've been saying the same thing for years
The Caliper Test for Bargnani is a double-edged sword.
You get a player who is oblivious to the outside world. This can make him a great performer but it can also make him uncoachable or unable to perform in a team setting.
Great, great, great post Yardly
Amazing how unscientific, unreliable and ultimately how little value these personality/psychological tests are. In the end, as we see with Bargnani, the tests provide subjective results based on subjective interpretations of subjective analysis. One of the funniest parts of the interview with "Dr." Greenburg is where he boasts that "about six or seven kids on that team were our picks." It’s funny because that team at the time was a terrible team that wound up with the first overall pick! Which lead to another of their "picks" Bargnani, another failure!
It could be that the test was actually highly accurate, but the results were misinterpreted. In fact that seems to be the thrust of this piece that you are praising (ie. great, great…)
why am i picturing
a complete burn out passing this test with flying colours (no pun intended)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 6, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Precisely my point! The test was highly inacurate BECAUSE there is a need to interperate the results. Meaning, the results are useless because the require interpretation, which is inharently flawed.
So, you don’t like statistics, then? Since all statistics require interpretation, which is inherently flawed…
That's a stupuid statement...
The level of subjective interpretation beetween unscientific psycological tests and raw statistics is absolutly different. With statistics you have factual data as a starting point, not so much with psychological tests. Your starting point is almost explicitly theoretical.
The idea of interpretation itself being inherently flawed was your idea, not mine. Just because after you said something so encompassing you wanted to backtrack gives you no reason to call my statement stupid.
What makes the interpretation of statistics so accurate compared to psychological tests? Seems to me that both at some point start from an assumption. Also, a statistic can be any number, regardless of how that number is generated, and since the Caliper guys seem to consistently label the results as a “score,” I’d say that these scores are in and of themselves a statistic.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 10, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
First of all, I did not back track, I put a finer point on my argument for you as you were being obtuse (I suspect purposefully) in your understanding of my argument. My encompassing statement was in the CONTEXT of the psychological tests. You have taken my statement completely out of context. In grades 1 to 4 you learn reading comprehension, it’s not until later in life you learn the subtleties of context…….
As per your thoughts on the "Caliper guys’" "statistics" and how they are maybe as accurate as basketball statistics – what you fail to understand is that the psychological test statistics are based on answers to questions. The answers to these questions are then analysed based on THEORETICAL principals that are IMPOSSIBLE to prove scientifically and potentially culturally biased (amongst other problems). It is a pseudo science based on theories and not facts or empirical evidence. Whereas, basketball statistics are based fundamentally on raw numbers that represent facts (i.e. fg%, rebounds per game, etc. etc.). there are no theoretical interpretations on how many rebounds Reggie Evans grabs per game. It’s an undisputable fact.
This is what I was getting at in my original post which I thought was easy to understand: "…the tests provide subjective results based on subjective interpretations of subjective analysis."
Is it easier for you to understand now?
Precisely my point! The test was highly inacurate BECAUSE there is a need to interperate the results. Meaning, the results are useless because the require interpretation, which is inharently flawed.
Why say this, when you mean:
Precisely my point! The test was highly inaccurate BECAUSE the results are based on non-numerical, subjective questions that have no basis besides the one defined by those conducting the tests. Meaning, the results are useless not because they require interpretation, which is inherently flawed, but because they are not derived simply by counting activities, like you would count rebounds, but by assigning values to non-numerical entities.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 11, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
if MAS wrote
“not JUST because” it makes perfect sense
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Face palm...........
Fine if you want to completely ignore the premise of the discussion, the context of my original post and look at my reply to DW19 in complete isolation, I can see how you are confused…. Ugh…
Perhaps my confusion stems from what I laid out above – that you were not saying what you meant. You meant that the source of the numbers used is unreliable – not that the inherent flaw in interpretation is the problem, which is what you stated.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 11, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
what you fail to understand is that the psychological test statistics are based on answers to questions
Actually a lot of them aren’t.
Depending on the job psychological tests can also be based on reactions to given situations.
For example if you apply for work at the CIA a number of tests that they put you through are situational tests to see how you respond to certain situations. It is critically important for the CIA to test this since a lot of their operatives are coverts who basically operate in the field without any direct supervision. So these coverts need to be able to respond properly to situations, especially unplanned situations.
Colts Used It and Probably Still Use It
When Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf were in the draft in 1998 Leaf was coming off a great college career and final college season. There was a lot a pressure on the Colts to draft Leaf.
Instead they gave both Manning and Leaf a battery of psychological tests. The tests showed that Manning had all the mental qualities that it takes to become the great quarterback that he is. On the other hand the Leaf failed the tests miserably and as those of us who follow American football know, Leaf did not exactly have a sterling NFL career lasting an uneventful five seasons. LOL
Kemba Walker
He would do very well in these tests but it is doubtful he will ever be a very good player in the NBA. Drafting is always a risk.
One stat that grabbed me was that of the last 15 number 1 picks, 11 were from the USA, and 4 were not. Of the 11 American players, you would love to have 7 of them on any team, 2 of them on most teams (Brand and Kenyon) and Oden due to injury hasn’t worked out yet and Kwame may still play, but he is not a good player.
As for the 4 foreign players, I wouldn’t get too excited about any of them. Olowakandi is/was horrible, Yao barely played due to injury, Andrea is what he is, sadly, and Bogut is a good piece of the puzzle but his performances thus far certainly haven’t warranted his first pick status.
Yao would have been a Hall of Fame player were it not for injuries, and Bogut would have been a perennial All-Star were it not for his injuries. Are you blaming their injuries on the fact they aren’t American?
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Not American
No, injuries can happen to anyone and Oden is a prime example. To me the issue is more if they come from a society and culture where basketball is king. Bogut is Australian and it’s just not part of their culture. African countries are all the same where soccer is all that matters. China is it’s own world, and it’s always risky to draft skinny tall guys. Italy I still believe cares more about soccer by about a million times than BBall. So all these players came from countries that were not obsessed with the game.
Turkey and Lithuania care about BBall. It is part of their culture.
That is part of the reason I felt JV was a better pick than Biyombo. This is not scientific and there will be exceptions to the rule, but it is something I have noticed.
Listen to JV talk about Kanter…he looks forward to playing him for many, many years to come and relishes the challenge. His whole family and all his friends care about BBall and he knows that the sport is the very centre of his universe and all his family and friends know this as well. I think that is an advantage.
by defensive rap on Jul 8, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
SO how do you explain Steve Nash? Basketball isn’t even his favourite sport. In the end, it doesn’t matter what’s around a player. It matters what’s inside of the player.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
I understand what D-Rap is saying (i think). Societies with a heritage in a certain sport will tend to produce better athletes in that sport as a whole. Therefore the stand out players in that sport will tend to come from better competition.
Not that that means anyone can’t be good (or great) from any location in any sport, but I’d put more reliance on Canada producing good hockey players, Italy good soccer players, Australia/New Zealand good Rugby players, India good Cricket players etc etc, than basketball players
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
“Societies with a heritage in a certain sport will tend to produce better athletes in that sport as a whole.”
That’s true up to a point. Everyone I have talked to from the Philippines tells me basketball is tremendously popular there and possibly the country’s #1 sporting interest. However, there have never been any Filipinos who have had notable NBA careers.
That is one example. I am sure there are others such as soccer. Many countries love it, but don’t produce any decent players.
Anyway, I understand that you are just making a vague sort of argument in the first place.
I'll bet on dhackett
126 tries to 10 on day 3
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
well I can see that
but in this case we are talking about a country that has a history of producing good basketball players and teams.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
JV
and Kanter both come from countries who love Basketball and I think that helps.
Just like Canadian Hockey players tend to be the best most frequently, but with tonnes of exceptions obviously.
Maybe I am wrong. On a micro level I like players who come from athletic families like Ed Davis. His dad has been teaching him how to be a pro since he was born and I think that will help make the transition from teenager to professional athlete easier for him. Of course there are exceptions, but as a rule I would prefer to get players who “bleed” basketball. I want their families (if possible) to support basketball as a way of life if we are going to pay them millions to play.
But in the end it all comes down to character and the right individual could come from any country. I just think when all things are equal, it is riskier to pick a player who comes from a country that doesn’t have Basketball highly regarded.
As for Nash he played Bball in BC, where I live. It is very popular in the high schools and while not the number one sport (hockey) Bball was still a major sport in Western Canada and still is.
And yes, Bogut is good and Yao was very promising.
by defensive rap on Jul 8, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes The Child Is Better and Sometimes Not As Good As The Parent
Geniuses or Superstars rarely have children that are superior in the same avocation as they were.
For example if you go look at the top 50 NBA players all-time who have male sons now 25 or more I don’t know of one who has a son that is considered a star in the NBA. In fact I don’t think that there are more than a handful of Superstar sons that have played in the NBA.
On he hand if you look at the top 100 players all time almost all of them did not have a father who was a star in the NBA but rather had a father who never even played in the NBA.
So history shows that rarely has a former NBA player ever had a son who went on to become a star in the NBA. Of course Kobe is one of the exceptions as he is far better than his father Joe “Jellybean” Bryant who played in the NBA.
Joe “Jellybean” Bryant played eight seasons in the NBA for a total of 606 games and averaged 8.7 PPG for is career.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanjo01.html
However I am not familiar with another current or recent NBA star player whose father played in the NBA though there are probably a few others.
The point being that even though the NBA has been in existence for three generations almost all of the stars in the league with a few exceptions have been fathered by someone who never even played in the NBA.
So history says that Ed Davis would be the rare exception rather than the rule if he were to go on to become a star in the NBA. Not that it can’t happen but he would be a rare exception to the actual historical facts of the NBA visa via father – son success.
The same is true in the world of entertainment. Very rarely is the child a superior entertainer than than parent if their parent was a star or superstar entertainer.
Examples I can think of include Bob Dylan and his son Jakob Dylan. Judy Garland and her daughter Liza Minnelli, John Henry Bonham and his children Zoe Bonham and Jason Bonham. Paul McCartney and his son James McCartney.
So I would say, a parent who was a star or superstar in some avocation rarely has a child who will be superior to the parent in that avocation and most likely the child will wind up being inferior to their superstar or star parent in the same avocation.
There are of course exceptions.
Superstars in various fields are more likely to come form parents who either never earned a meaningful living in the same profession but only tinkered with it on an amateur level or weren’t very good at it on a professional level. More likely stars and superstars will have parents or a parent who had skills in the same general type of activity.
By this I mean is most stars or superstars in a field have on or two parents who possessed some degree of skill in that general area. For example I wold venture to say that most NBA superstars have had athletically inclined parents or parents that were successful in another area of athletics like Noah’s father who was a great tennis player.
Bottom line I personally don’t put a lot of weight in Davis becoming a star NBA player because his father played in the NBA. Does this mean that Davis will not become a star in the league. Of course not. What it does mean is that I don’t think the fact that Ed Davis father played in the NBA is a valid reason to come to the logical conclusion Ed Davis will or won’t become a star in the NBA.
By the way I do Joe “Jellybean” Bryant, Kobe’s father was a better NBA player than Terry Davis, Ed’s father was.
So who knows how good a NBA player Ed Davis will become. To quote Amir when asked about Ed’s upside as a NBA player, “The sky is the limit”
I DON'T BUY IT BUDDAH
Your example is so specific and relies on the data of 50 parents?
While I can see you not liking Ed and thinking he wants to leave us, the fact his father was a pro athlete helps. It may not be crucial but it helps. Look at most professional athletes; most of them had athletic parents. If only 1 in 50 players had parents who played in the NBA, that’s 2%. The average American has an 0.00000002% chance. I like the child of the pro athlete’s chances versus the bankers son.
If only Amir’s dad was an ex NBA player, then you would change your tune (just kidding)
by defensive rap on Jul 9, 2011 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions
As You Were Saying
Amir Jalla Johnson, son of Deneen Griffin, grew up in L.A. playing basketball whenever he could. His sister, Indi, plays forward for the women’s basketball team at Southern University and his cousin, Kevin Burnett, is a linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys.
http://amirjohnson.com/this-is-amir-johnson-the-biography/
David Jacskon: Penn State Forward: PERSONAL Born August 20, 1988 in Redondo Beach, Calif….The son of Andrea Jackson and Ray Mosby…Has one brother and four sisters…His brother, Amir Johnson, was drafted by the NBA’s Detroit Pistons in 2006 straight out of Los Angeles HS…Father, Ray, played basketball at Long Beach State (1982 & 1983) and profesionally…Mother, Andrea, played volleyball at Cincinnati and Central Florida and was an assistant volleyball coach at Youngstown State…She was also a member of the 1980 U.S. Olympic Team….Anticipates majoring in business.
Jackson’s half-brother is primo Los Angeles high school graduate Amir Johnson, who’s either going straight to the NBA or to Louisville this fall. Their father Ray Mosby, who lives in East St. Louis, Ill., played at Long Beach State under Tex Winter in the late ’70s.
Correction to the above quote. Ray Mosby played for Tex Winter at Cal State Long Beach in the early 80s not late 70s.
Bottom Line on This
1. Amir’s father Ray Mosby played college hoops for Tex Winter at CA. State Long Beach. I believe Ray Mosby also played overseas though I am not positive about that. He did not play in the NBA
2. Amir’s half-brother Donald Jackson played college hoops at Penn State
3. Amir’s sister Indi Johnson played college hoops at Southern University
4. Amir’s cousin Kevin Burnett plays for the San Diego Chargers in the NFL
I Remembered Another Pair
Dell Curry and of course his son Stephen "Curry
The problem with your theory...
Is that it doesn’t take into account that an NBA player is one of the top 500, or so, players in the entire world. The chance of ANYONE getting there is infinitely slim. Having the right lineage seems to be a plus. Former NBA players seem to have a far better chance of having a child end up in the NBA than any other sector of society. And it’s not even close.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
True
But that was not my point.
My point was that NBA pedigree does not mean that the son will be as good as the father.
of course not, but it helps to have athletic parents
by defensive rap on Jul 11, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Only If You Want To Be An Athlete
Of course that goes without saying.
Agreed
Take Lithuania for example. How and why does a country with a population less than that of the greater Toronto area continuously produce good basketball players and compete at a very high level in international tournaments. It has a lot to do with the popularity and heritage of basketball in that country.
This makes me think of an article Bill Simons wrote during the World Cup. In the piece he discussed why the US is not a power in international football (soccer) and concluded that it was because the sport was not that popular domestically. For example, he suggested that Allen Iverson, if he had grown up in say Liverpool England, and focussed his insane athletic freakishness on becoming a football player, he could have been the best footballer ever. Or imagine LeBron James as your goaly!
It comes down to where a country focusses their athletic resources and the quality of those resources.
True Sort Of
However your explanation does not explain why Compton CA with only 10 square miles and less than 100,000 people probably produces more NBA players per square mile and 100,000 people then any other city in America.
One stat that grabbed me was that of the last 15 number 1 picks, 11 were from the USA, and 4 were not.
Not surprising to me at all. NBA GMs spend a lot more time and resources scouting NCAA and US high schools than scouting in other countries. To a certain extent, they are more comfortable drafting an American #1 because they have a better idea of what the player could become.
Thinking about it, 11 Americans represents roughly 75% of the #1s. My guess is that the general NBA population is somewhere around 75% American too.
re: Foreign Players and number one picks
I agree. If any of us were a GM with a top pick, you are not necessarily looking for the homerun, super upside pick above all else. You want to balance that with their track record, and progress year to year. An American player has the highest level of competition from grade school up until NCAA. No doubt. Foreign players are a risk, since you don’t know how much of their performance to ascribe to just being bigger, stronger, faster, then their opposition by a wide margin.
This doesn’t mean you dismiss their achievements outright. It does mean that you are accepting more risk, since you don’t know how they will adapt to facing athletes that are their equal or superior night after night.
Way Off!
Of the foreigners, only Olowakandi was a miss. Bogut has been exactly what he was expected to be and was becoming more when he got injured. I would love him to be on my team. Yao was the ROY and one of the most dominant players in the game – when healthy. Bargnani was never slated to be a superstar. Sure, he has been seen to be a lazy --, a title often earned. He seems to just not be able to keep it up for half of the season. He was on fire at the start of the year. He is a very talented scorer. He can still be very good with improved shooting, yes shooting, and a few more fundamentals down low. But given the year he was drafted in, he has been better than all except Gay, Roy (inj.), Rondo, and Aldridge. Not so bad. Given that Stern always manipulates tehe dreaft for a “narrative”, Andrea’s choice may have been agreed upon before Toronto got the pick. The narrative was the European expansion and building of a U.N. team in Toronto. The agreement was that Bargnani would be the choice to market the idea. It was part of the deal that brought Gheredini and Colangelo to town.
“Given that Stern always manipulates tehe dreaft for a "narrative", Andrea’s choice may have been agreed upon before Toronto got the pick. The narrative was the European expansion and building of a U.N. team in Toronto. The agreement was that Bargnani would be the choice to market the idea. It was part of the deal that brought Gheredini and Colangelo to town.”
You know what, I’ve often thought something similar. I know I’ll get killed for this and it is conspiratorial, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some sort of “understanding” to bring Colangelo and Gheredini to Toronto and construct some sort of experiment to build an international team and sell NBA Basketball to an international market. It would explain A LOT! Of course who cares about winning and Toronto based Raptors fans…
re: Raptors International Influence
Recall reading that Colangelo had been tracking Bargnani’s development from back in his Phoenix Suns days.
IMHO, Bargnani was going to be the Raptors pick no matter how well anyone else did during the workouts. Colangelo was coming in with the mentality that Bargnani was the guy, and everyone else had to beat him out of that spot.
As far as the Euro-movement, I think that Colangelo already looked upon European competition as a source of resources, when he hired D’Antoni to coach the Suns, who had a substantial European background. And given Toronto’s challenges bringing in talent, BC likely sold the MLSE board on looking toward Europe as a sort of untapped resource of players that were more….international in their outlook and less likely to dismiss Toronto as this scary foreign country. European players usually have to travel to different countries for league or tournament games anyway, so this broadens their horizons in terms of travel well before they reach the NBA. And wearing both the GM and Presidents hats, in addition to inexperienced ownership, BC had the ideal situation to push through however many innovative hiring (Maurizio) and recruiting practices (Free agent focus on Euroleague stars like Parker and Garbajosa) as he wanted.
It worked for one year, and I still believe there is some merit to looking towards Europe to pick up players that are undervalued by other teams. However, the well just isn’t deep enough to make that the strategy you build an entire team upon.
I can’t see Stern having the level of influence that you guys are inferring. Yes, Stern is the one that pushed for Toronto to hir e Colangelo. But I think he washed his hands of the process from that point forward. If he REALLY wanted to work the international angle, I would think his best play would be pulling strings to get Yao Ming into New York. The practice of having teams with European players play preseason games overseas has likely done more for the NBA’s international brand then loading up one team (the Raptors) with Europeans.
What?
So you are happy with any of the foreign picks at number 1? If you had them today?
Yao you can slug off to injuries, and that is tough to evaluate, but the other three?
Bogut is a good player, but he is never been in the top twenty players in the league. Never. He has done a good job and is a good player, but he’s not a player you can build a franchise around. Unless you think the Bucks are set up to win soon. They are not.
Andrea is not efficient in the slightest (40 something percent but doesn’t get to the line a lot and doesn’t pass well so his percentage is even worse than the mid forties it shows (fg%). He is a horrible, horrible defender up until now. Maybe Casey can change him. Maybe he is too oblivious to the rest of the world to care what we as fans think, or what coaches think, or what anybody thinks. Maybe he worries more about getting his 20 pts than he does about winning and that makes him a horrible #1 pick.
Duncan, Lebron, Dwight, Blake, Rose…these have been the big difference makers chosen at 1. All American players. BTW, I don’t think it is anything other than a stat. In the last draft I thought Kanter and JV were the two best choices and they were both foreign. I was just surprised at the stat. JV will turn out to be the best pick in the draft and be a better player than Patrick Ewing but not as good as Hakeem Olajuwan.
better than Patrick Ewing?
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jul 8, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't a guy dream
and yes, it could happen although we have no idea yet. JV could be a monster centre in this league for years to come.
by defensive rap on Jul 8, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya but Patrick Ewing was a great, great centre. I just don’t see JV developing Patrick’s offensive game.
Look don’t get me wrong, I think what Jonas has shown in the recent U19 tournament is super impressive and I’m excited to see him in a Raptors uniform. The only point I’m making is that Ewing was one of the best offensive centres ever. He just had a skill level at that end of the court I’m not SURE Jonas has. He may well get there, I would just need to see more evidence before I would put his offensive game on PEwing’s level. Please Buddah, I beg of you, don’t put me in the JV Doubters Club! PLEASE! LOL
What Does Ewing Have To Do With Anthing
I Did see Amir play when he was 18 – LOL
@ MAS11
Yeah, of course the comment is way too bold to say at this time. I know. And for the record I don’t think JV shows signs of having the offensive game of Ewing. We’ll see, but he could be an even better defender and he could be as effective as Ewing was, a dominant centre in the NBA for more than 10 years.
Toronto Raptors draft a solid young centre who excels on the defensive end and is efficient on the offensive end of the floor.
or
The Raptors just drafted the best player in the NCAA tournament, who is a volume shooter and arguably 6 feet tall. A decent defender, an average passer and below average shooter who takes lots of shots…
So far, so good.
by defensive rap on Jul 11, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The theme of a player being “too big for soccer”, and coming to basketball late, is something that has played out a few times.
I believe this was the case for Hakeem, however you wouldn’t be able to tell it from the way he played the game. A true talent, no doubt.
Michael Olowokandi, I think he had two major question marks.
1) How much exposure to high level basketball. He grew up in the UK, and they are not among the powers in European basketball. I think they are fighting to get out of the B pool in advance to hosting olympics in 2012. My point is that any competition he would have had would not be comparable to a traditional European power, or the US. I also believe he came to the game later in life then the traditional basketball player.
2) Does he even love the game? This was a concern that came up after he was drafted, when it seemed he wasn’t putting in the work to improve in the off-season. I am not a Clipper fan, so perhaps someone else would be able to expand on this point.
Olowokandi is the best example for your argument that not coming up in a basketball-rich environment can handicap a player’s development. Yao and Bogut are probably the result of governments that place a high emphasis on identifying elite athletes early in life, and giving them added resources in order to succeed, not unlike Russia. Bargnani, arguably, came from the most basketball rich environment of the four. Bargnani’s problem isn’t that he’s Italian. And it was not a lack of any opportunity. The issue is between the ears.
Love of the game
Does he even love the game? I think that is a very important part of the makeup of a player. Also, do they care about winning above all else, or do they just want to make sure they get theirs and the team result is secondary?
We have a player who needs to answer these questions sooner than later. And he was a number 1 pick but I don’t want to name names.
We also have Amir Johnson who gets these fundamental questions right and puts himself out there every night. (that was kinda for Buddha, but also true)
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