Carter and DeRozan Mixes

by Durand Alexander on Jul 22, 2011 12:23 PM EDT

You all have got to see these Vince Carter highlights.

I know he left on bad terms, but for those of you still not holding a grudge it will be a fun view.

In addition I also found a DeMar DeRozan mix.

He has a long way to go before he reaches the mystique of Vince Carter, but he's moving in the right direction.

And Dwane Casey and Johnny Davis will help him reach his full potential on both ends of the court.

I think you are on to something in Toronto.

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Demar

I like Demar. There’s lots of room for improvement like his jumper (mid range has gotten a lot better, can’t wait till he starts doing pullups!), maybe extend his range beyond the arc (although I don’t think it’s that crucial yet), and his defence.

But I think the biggest thing that will benefit him in terms of his offense is his first step. VC, Kobe, T-Mac, even Grant Hill in his prime had very good and very quick first step. That’s when he can take advantage of his athleticism the most, when he’s able to leave his man behind to the basket. I don’t think he has the ability to create space off the dribble, so he would need a quick first step. Once he’s near the basket, he can pretty much jump over anyone, or draw some contact.

by teedotaj on Jul 23, 2011 12:08 PM EDT reply actions

I Just Want To See Him Become An Above Average Defender

and develop a decent three point shot.

Everything else would be gravy.

by Buddahfan on Jul 23, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the three ball would be a nice coplement. But he needs a “go to” move first.

Plus one with the defense!!!! Hope the new coach can help on that regard!

by teedotaj on Jul 24, 2011 11:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

He had the spin in the lane as his go to move.

Now all he needs is Timmy Hardaways killer crossover.

by OzRapsFan on Jul 25, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions

It Would Be Nice

to see him break some ankles

by Buddahfan on Jul 26, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Demar

has a LONG way to go to be mentioned in the same category as those guys. The only thing he can do right now that is comparable is jump.

Demar is all athleticism with few other skills. Now he is young and a hard worker, and he shown that he can improve in areas, but he has a ridiculous amount to improve on to be considered in the ‘superstar’ territory.

Defense, shooting range, ball handling, passing, ability to get to the FT line, clutch play, rebounding….. I personally think his ceiling may be capped in the John Salmons territory. Good, but not great.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 25, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions

You Could Be Right On This One

by Buddahfan on Jul 26, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions

More like..

Richard Jefferson. I think that’s a better comparison for Demar. That’s how Demar would look if he got some range.

I would rather Demar develop his mid range though and pull ups with a combination of a quick first step.

by teedotaj on Jul 26, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Salmons vs Jefferson

All three are about the same height with Jefferson probably being the heaviest and strongest

You could be correct however neither Salmons nor DeRozan has ever approached Jefferson’s WS/48

Career WS/48
-———————————-
DeRozan – .060
Salmons – .080
Jeffereson – .130

Career PER
-——————————-
DeRozan – 13.7
Salmons – 13.1
Jefferson – 15.8

Career Def Rating – The lower the better
-————————-
DeRozan – 114
Salmons – 108
Jefferson – 106

Admittedly those numbers are influenced somewhat by the quality of the team that the player played on. Also DeRozan has only two years of experience

However, ISTM that DeRozan has a long way to go to get to Jefferson’s level in terms of defense and offensive efficiency

Career Three Point Shooting %
-——————————————————-
DeRozan – .132 – Absolutely pathetic for anyone.
Salmons – .369
Jefferson – .365

He needs to improve his three point shooting and defense. Xover dribbles look nice on the playground, in the Drew league and on ESPN highlights but being able to do that is not near as important as being able to make three point shots and playing defense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

by Buddahfan on Jul 26, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I appreciate the numbers

Looking at the numbers you posted, it looks like though that Derozan is already near Salmons numbers.

Someone suggested Derozan’s ceiling maybe in the Salmon’s territory and you agreed to it. I suggested it could be more like RJ’s. If Demar is already near Salmons level..he could only get better since he’s relatively young.

Besides, Derozan and JR have more similar style than Derozan and Salmons. Salmons is a slasher type with the crossovers and all that you alluded to..which I agree looks nice in the playground. I don’t think Derozan will ever develop handles like that..which is why I think it’s in his best interest to have a quicker first step (it has nothing to do with crossoevers), because that would work well with his athleticism.

You’re pretty good with the numbers though. I;ll try lear4ning that stuff.

by teedotaj on Jul 26, 2011 5:25 PM EDT reply actions

my bad

I meant it to be a reply.

I must add..these numbers are useful. You make compelling arguments with them! I was just never a numbers guy =(

by teedotaj on Jul 26, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Tossing The Numbers Aside

ISTM that DeRozan needs to improve his three point shooting and defense more than improving anything else.

Here is how I would rank what he needs to improve.

1. Defense
2. Three Point Shooting
3. Passing
4. Rebounding

by Buddahfan on Jul 26, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m with you on defense. But here’s why the three ball is not that crucial for demar yet:

Your stats below point out amir shot better than demar @ midrange. And that his threes are even worse.

I don’t think it makes sense to improve 3 point shooting without having a decent mid range (bread and butter shot).

Having a decent three point shot makes him more versitile. But I think the raps need him to be a consistent scorer first. Shooting the three ball is not what you want him to be doing if you want him to score more consistently. Mid range jumpers are higher percentage. Which means they are more consistent. A quick first step can either lead him to a pullup or a drive to the basket. That would lead to dunks or freethrows. Those are all more effective than a three point shot.

Here’s my demar wish list:
1) Defense
2)Consistent mid range
3) Quick first step
4) Rebounding
5) 3 point shooting

While its nice to see demar shoot threes, that’s not where I would like hkm to focus his improvement.

by teedotaj on Jul 27, 2011 12:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Depends What You Consider Mid-Range

DeMar shot good last season from 15 feet and in.

Interesting that you left out passing. Casey’s system on offense requires good ball movement. Go back and re-watch the Dallas games. Their offense was all about ball movement as most top teams offense is. A team is most effective on offense when they have five guys on the court that can pass and shoot especially the perimeter players.

I totally disagree on quick first step as being important. It is what it is. I don’t see his ball handling improving much going forward. If he hasn’t become a good ball handler by age 21 IMO it is never going to happen. Ball handling skills are something you develop starting at five years old and master by the time you are in the late teens or it just never happens IMO.

Raptors had the worst three point shooting in the NBA. They can’t afford to have a player eating up 35 mpg at a wing spot and not being able to make outside shots. With the additional of JV along with Amir and Ed the Raptors have three bigs to play down low. A lot of DeMars lane penetration is off of screens mostly set by Amir. JV will also add to screening capability. Jury is still out on Ed though I would think that he can do that.

Rip Hamilton never has had a quick first step or good ball handling skills but he could catch and shoot mid-range jump shots off of screens Hamilton has also never had a good and effective three point shot. That lack of a good effective three point shot kept him from being one of the top SG in the league. Where would Ray Allen’s career have been without a good three point shot?

DeRozan is no D-Wade and never will be so DeRozan needs to develop a good three point shot.

JMO

by Buddahfan on Jul 27, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

couple of things

-the only reason i didn’t mention passing is because it would have been number six on my list. lol. i don’t think it’s important in terms of his personal growth at this point of his career. yea sure it’s good for team ball but we’re talking about personal growth here.

-a quick first step and handles are not the same and does not have to be together. grant hill never had slick handles but he had a sick first step during his prime. that’s how he was successful. i never said demar’s ball handling should be developed.

I’m beginning to wonder if you actually know what I’m referring to when I say “quick first step”. You seem to always equate it with flashy ball handling skills and crossovers….
It’s simply the explosiveness of your drive that would seperate you from your defender, without having to shake your guy off. You don’t think demar can work on that? with his natural athleticism?

—>why are you comparing demar with ray allen and rip hamilton? Those guys are very good shooters but don’t do much else. Like Reggie Miller. They don’t have the same athleticism someone like Demar has. You wanna turn Demar into one of those? Not that it’s a bad thing, but I don’t think his skill set matches those guys.
-obviously ray allen wouldn’t be where he is now without his three point shooting. He’s friggin amazing. but him and demar are two different players. ray allen is naturally a three point specialist. demar is not. you’re suggesting we should turn demar into ray allen are you?
-rip hamilton same thing. he’s a shooting specialist. that’s not what demar’s style is. And i disagree that Rip was never elite. During the Piston’s championship days, he was up there. He never reached milestones like Ray allen, which is why he won’t be one of the greats. But I wouldn’t say he wasn’t elite just because he preferred to shoot within the arc.

Finally, Derozan is no D wade. You’re right. That doesn’t mean he should turn into a three point machine. he just need to polish what he’s good at.

A QUICK FIRST STEP is easier to develop for an athletic person like Demar and more useful for a driving shooting guard like Demar than a good three point shot.

by teedotaj on Jul 27, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Grant Hill – You mean Mr. Softy. You should have been a Pistons fan when he played for them. Trading him for Ben Wallace could have been the best trade the Pistons organization ever made.

August 3, 2000: Traded by the Detroit Pistons to the Orlando Magic for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace.

Grant seems like a really nice guy but I have never been impressed with him on the court.. Why because he is soft, has never won a title and never will.

As far as “quick first step” I know what it means. It is like ball handling. If you haven’t got it by the time you are 15 – 17 you will never have it. I don’t know of one NBA player who has ever developed a “quick first step” while in the NBA.

Ray Allen

All-Star Games
2000 NBA
2001 NBA
2002 NBA
2004 NBA
2005 NBA
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA
2009 NBA
2011 NBA

2000-01 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2008 Boston Celtics (NBA) – Championship

He is more than just a very good shooter. He has a very good all-around game. At this point I doubt If DeRozan can ever get to his level.

I was a Pistons fan for decades and I can tell you that Rip’s game has always been mid-range jumper getting a pass coming off a pick. He did improve his defense over the years and yes he won a championship. However, Pistons fans have wanted to trade him for years. He commits way to many turnovers and gets way too many bad technical fouls to be more than just a very good SG in his prime. He is an emotional player who has always been able to be rattled very easily. He was never elite.

All-Star Games
2006 NBA
2007 NBA
2008 NBA

2004 Detroit Pistons (NBA) – Championship

IMO DeMar is way too old at 21 to improve his first step by much. As I said above if you don’t have a “quick first step” by the time you are 15 – 17 forget it. What he can do in this area is improve his reading of defenses to make better choices between passing and shooting.

His career assist average per 36 minutes is an awful 1.6.
Hamilton’s is 3.6
Ray Allen’s is 4.2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

by Buddahfan on Jul 27, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions

good job

ummm…ok all those facts sound interesting and education. ok dude you keep including irrelevant facts. i get it. you can do your research. what does that have to do with dema derozan?

ahhh there’s the last paragraph…which is a small portion of your entire post. it actually mentioned something about derozan. but again, what does that have to do with his development? His assist per 36 mins is shit. so what? He’s not a pg. He can develop it for sure. No one needs stats to figure that out. He should. No arguments there. I never said he didn’t need to. I just ranked that need lower than others. Why were you mentioning Ray Allen’s and Rip’s assts per again? What was the point of that post again?

Oh right, there’s also a section about the first step. I don’t believe he’s too old to get an explosive one. Given the proper training and proper technique it can get better. It’s not one of those you either you got it or not qualities. It’s not like hops or speed, or court vision, or height. It’s about training your muscles.

by teedotaj on Jul 27, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Big DeMar Fan

Fair enough.

But at least try and show some objectivity.

by Buddahfan on Jul 28, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions

actually..

not a big demar fan…i was actually being objective there. reading your posts, you’re a smart guy. until someone has something different to say.

by teedotaj on Jul 29, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Not True

I am not smart.

by Buddahfan on Jul 29, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions

I Have No Problem With People Disagreeing With Me

Go back and check all the posts on this website that have disagreed with me.

What I have a problem with

1. How people disagree
1a. Statements of supposed fact with no backup.
1b. People misquoting me or anyone else when they disagree
1c. People making things up when they disagree
1d. People disagreeing just to disagree with the intent to provoke an argument.

by Buddahfan on Jul 29, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions

number fits you well

by teedotaj on Jul 29, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions

four

by teedotaj on Jul 29, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Teedotaj - Talking To Yourself Again - eh?

Bad habit you have.

by Buddahfan on Jul 30, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions

Done Responding To You On This Thread

Have a nice day.

by Buddahfan on Jul 30, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions

Oh and yea

Admittedly…Grant Hill is my fave…specially back in the Pistons days. LOL. Wasn’t trying to big him up. Was just trying to use him as an example. Gotta defend him a little though. He’s not mister softy. Just some bad luck with injuries. Same with Brandon Roy. Nice guys who can play. Just have some bad luck with health issues :(

oh and about that Ben Wallace comment….hindsight is 20/20 ;)

by teedotaj on Jul 27, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions

DD is 21 years old

He could easily be a rookie. He is young and needs time to develop. He looked jacked this year in the summer photos I saw.

His ceiling is neither of these two players. He will be much better than Salmons by next season. IMO

Since when did we start saying 21 year old players have peaked? Especially ones who we drafted young, knew were raw with talent and would take time to develop but had huge upside. Let’s stay on the DD bandwagon a little longer people, we don’t have too much to look forward to in Raptorland. DD can still develop into an amazing player and he has a higher ceiling than RJ or Salmons. We just have to wait and see if he continues to develop.

by defensive rap on Jul 26, 2011 6:54 PM EDT reply actions

Good Defense Requires Hard Work During The Real Games Not Just In Practice

When I see his defense and three point shooting improve then I will believe it.

His three point shooting is pathetic. I don’t care if he is only 21 years old. Hopefully he will be able to develop the range to be an efficient three point shooter. I don’t think that he needs to become a high volume three point shooter but making 1.5 a game at 35% plus would work.

i bet you didn’t know that Amir shot better last season from 16 – 23 feet than DeRozan did.

Amir – 42.0%
DeRozan 40.0%

http://hoopdata.com/

by Buddahfan on Jul 26, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions

If Fact If You Look at the Numbers from 15 Feet and Out

including Free Throw shooting Amir shot almost as well as DeMar did from 15 feet and out including from the Free Throw line.

Free Throws
-————————
DeMar – .813
Amir – .788

16 – 23 Feet
-————————-
DeMar – .400
Amir – .420

Three Point Shots
-————————————
DeMar – .096 on 52 three point shots
Amir – .000 on 1 three point shot.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2011.html

by Buddahfan on Jul 26, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions

oh I agree with you on this one whole heartedly

I think you are absolutely right. I think derozan can turn into something good in this league. The only reason I brought up rj is cuz someone said derozan is probably gonna be as good as salmons. I disagreed because I think he can be AT LEAST richard jefferson level given their styles of play.

by teedotaj on Jul 27, 2011 12:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

yeah, you are right

and add to the fact he is so young, let’s wait and see. He’s a perfect fit for the team right now. Athletic, young and full of potential. Ed Davis is similar but maybe a year behind. Give him time too. They are still the age of College students, not grads.

Amir is young but he has been in the league a long time and his success has been earned through hard work and opportunity. Demar needs and deserves the same opportunity. He might be good. Let’s see if Casey can teach him defence? For a 21 year old, his offensive game shows tonnes of promise and just needs to develop a bit more. Certainly has the potential to be a star player. When he came out for the draft he was seen as a high potential guy who was a bit raw. If that is what we expected and hoped for, I say so far so good. Let’s see if he can continue to improve. At 21 years old, I’d say he’s got a great chance.

by defensive rap on Jul 27, 2011 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't think

anyone said Demar has peaked (if so I missed it somewhere), but there is such a range of skills he needs to improve on (especially if we want to put him in the superstar category) I think it will be incredibly difficult for him to reach that top end calibre.

Richard jefferson definetely isn’t out of the realm of possibility, and in reality RJ was (until recently) an excellent player. So I think even if one wants to calls his ceiling RJ, thats a pretty high ceiling.

Its just when i think of a ‘good’/‘great’ SGs, I think of a guy that can do almost everything well. May not handle and pass the ball like a PG, but should be able to do it as a ‘back up’ to the PG. I think of a guy who can shoot and score from anywhere on the floor. Defense and rebounding are probably less important from this position than others, but if we are talking a ‘good’ player (or especially a superstar) they are rarely bad at them. Clutch play can come from anywhere, but it tends to be your perimeter players. Demar does try to get to the FT line… but he still needs to get better at it and be smarter about it.

I’m not off the Demar band wagon, so to speak, and he is young and apparently a hard worker. He showed some progress from last year and thats good. But he still needs big improvents in nearly every aspect of his game. Thats alot to ask a player, even a young guy. The only area I think he’s ‘great’ at is athleticism, which isn’t bad because its not one of those things you can teach. But even that I don’t think he uses to the best of his ability. (no reason why we shouldn’t get a highlight reel dunk from him a game)

Anyways wasn’t trying to knock the guy… and I like what he could be. But he’s the type of player fans easily get ahead of themselves over. At the same time, if his work ethic is real and steady, he’s one of those guys that can exceed anyone’s expectations. Problem is the later happens much more rarely than the former.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 27, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

NSFS, RJ is a good player

Your response is well written and thought out. I was not suggesting he would be bad, good or great. I was suggesting he was 21 years old and we don’t know yet. Some people think that if he isn’t a star by 21 years old he’s done. It doesn’t always work out that way, and we have to wait and see with Demar. But he’s physically gifted and he works hard. So far so good.

It wasn’t too long ago, before KG came out in the draft, that rookies were 22 years old. They were given a year to adjust, then they were given a sophmore season to play and by the third season if they weren’t clicking they were in trouble, at age 24 or 25.

Demar has a quality that has always been lacking in Toronto; he loves to play basketball and be in the gym. I hope he can rise up, become a leader on this team and that his love for the game and the city becomes infectious to the rest of the team like KD did for the Thunder. That is his ceiling IMO. Remember, I am posting here as a fan of the team and DD. He seems humble and happy and hard working. Now just learn to play vicious D and hit the three.

And it is important that he score and defend. Buddhafan mentions above that his defence is less important at the two spot. I disagree. The best twos in the game are Kobe and Wade and they both excel on the defensive side of the ball.

Jordan was a defensive stopper as well. Jason Richardson type player is not what we need at the 2. I hope DD can be a more complete player than that.

by defensive rap on Jul 27, 2011 1:35 PM EDT reply actions

I Never Said What You Claim I Did

Buddhafan mentions above that his defence is less important at the two spot. I disagree.

That is just outright making things up.

Age is factor more in big men then in Wings and Guards. Why because Big men have to deal with growth issues into their late teens. Their bodies need to fill out to accommodate the growth in height.

With respect to guards and SF after two years in the league as a starter you are not going to see much improvement in their fundamentals regardless of how old they are.

What you will see is

1. Improved knowledge of the game – Which some would put in fundamentals Fair enough
2. Improved outside shooting
3. Improved defense.

For Wing players after two seasons in the league as a starter regardless of age their game is pretty much what it is except for the possible improvement in the three areas mentioned above.

JMO

by Buddahfan on Jul 27, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions

Buddhafan mentions above that his defence is less important at the two spot. I disagree.

I have never and will never say defense is less important at one position than the other. Period.

Quick making things up.

by Buddahfan on Jul 27, 2011 2:05 PM EDT reply actions

The Only Time I Have Or Will Say That Defense Is Less Important

for a player to have is for a sixth man coming in off the bench and being able to score in bunches effectively provided that he is surrounded with four other guys who are at least average defenders.

Of course that has nothing to do with what position the sixth man plays.

Other than that IMO defense is always the first ingredient I look for in all players. If they can’t defend one on one or in team defense or learn to do so, I don’t want them on my teams that I root for, period. I don’t care how much they score with the one exception stated above and even then I would take a better defending sixth man who was not quite as a good a scorer over a better scoring sixth man who can’t defend with some rare individual exceptions.

Defense and Efficient shooting wins basketball games in that order especially playoff games. JMO

by Buddahfan on Jul 27, 2011 2:15 PM EDT reply actions

hey Buddha

I misquoted you. Sorry. I mixed up the NSFS and you.

I can see what he is saying that you need more punch out of the 2 spot on the offensive side of the ball but defence is crucial IMO. And as I re read the posts I see that Buddha agrees.

by defensive rap on Jul 27, 2011 2:48 PM EDT reply actions