Raptors HQ 2011 Pre-Draft Workout Number 1 Recap
With the Raptors' pre-Draft workout number one in the books, Can Ball Ray steps into the pro arena to give his observations on the first of the four scheduled sessions at the ACC...
By June 7th most years, the Toronto Raptors are well into pre-draft workout sessions.
But a combination of factors this year, including a higher pick than they've had since 2006, has meant that the Dinos are only starting this process, and yesterday was indeed the jump-off point.
The team managed to score two full workout sessions, a morning and an afternoon run, featuring two players being bandied about as guys that the team should look into getting if available.
Yes of course, we're talking about Kemba Walker and Brandon Knight.
Now normally a pre-draft workout that featured these two would be an incredibly interesting session to take in, but unfortunately Franchise and I were left quite disappointed when all was said and done.
Why?
Well for starters, it was reported that Brandon Knight's agent did not want his ex Wildcat client working out against Walker. This of course led to the creation of the two sessions, with Walker working out in the morning with Jacob Pullen and various other prospects, and Knight coming in separately for the afternoon run.
Second, well, even though media was granted access to the workouts, we were really limited in terms of what we were able to see.
We were only able to catch the tail end of these workout sessions, which was really only the outside shooting portions, and it seems that each year we're able to take in less and less of the live action that goes on. Franchise correctly noted that four years ago during our first pre-draft access, often media took in the last half hour of action, and we were able to not only get an idea of how certain players fared against each other, but also capture live action shots of the ongoings.
We also in the past had many opportunities to interview players one-on-one for the site.
Now?
Scrum and shooting photos only, interviews conducted with the rest of the media, and very little in terms of anything resembling live basketball action.
With Walker in the first session, the majority of the media swarmed him, recorders and cameras in tow, and I was able to catch a bit of the warm ups and the agility testing for the bigs while Knight and Thomas shot around on the far end of the gym.
And again, in both sessions, the players were sent out once the big media scrum was over and we weren't able to grab any one on one time.
All in all, here is what I could gather from the sessions:
1) The two primary targets in the workouts, Kemba Walker and Brandon Knight, are both very media savvy kids. Walker more so than Knight at this point, but both carried themselves quite well against an obvious media spotlight. Both were quick with their answers and definitely looked comfortable with lights and cameras on them. If Walker is Toronto's eventual choice at 5, as many mock draft sites seem to project, he will definitely be among the most quotable in the locker room. Jacob Pullen and Isaiah Thomas were also equally media friendly, by the way, Thomas having an endless energy that extended off the court.
2) Kemba Walker did not shoot the ball well in the 3-point drill. The knock on him is that his outside shot is lacking and, well, he didn't silence critics today. Mind you, I only got to see 15 shots from three stations in about 5 minutes, so take that info with a grain of salt.
3) In contrast, Brandon Knight shot the ball extremely well from during the same 3-point drill. In fact, we got to see Knight shoot from both a standing set shot position, and in motion, running to various spots on the floor and attempting long range bombs. He looked equally adept at knocking down both.
4) Isaiah Thomas can flat out shoot the rock. He might have missed three of the 30 treys he took in the drills that I saw. This should really be a big boost to his stock as he's indeed undersized, even at the point guard position. In the past, his lack of long-range accuracy has been a big knock on his NBA potential, height aside, but so far from the combine through team workouts he's shown how much he's improved in this area.
5) Ohio State's Dallas Lauderdale doesn't exactly have a pretty shot, even for a big man. No offense to the hulking man child BUT he shoots like Shawn Marion...only slower, and on the way down from his jump. That looks like tragedy in the making.
6) UNC's Will Graves is a very big dude! He looks like he could be a middle linebacker but does have a three point stroke.
7) Alex Stephensen could be a player. The former Blue Devil Tar Heel turned Trojan looks every bit his 6'9", 240 lb frame and he moves well with and without the ball. He also did a nice job knocking down shots from various ranges. He's a guy that I wouldn't be mad seeing in a Raps uniform come this October, or January.
8) There was nothing spectacular about the kicks these guys were rockin'. The best pair may have to go to Graves who was wearing a pair of UNC player edition Team Jordans. Other than that, no real exclusives.
Other than that people, there really wasn't much going on. We will look to give you more on the coming three workouts the Raptors have planned in the coming weeks of course so stayed tuned.
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Over-cautious media-handling
I think this “protecting the asset” media strategy is starting to go too far. It makes sense in the case of a guy who is more or less a fraud (Olowokandi or Saer Sene for example). In that situation, the guy wants to get picked as high as possible and get the best contract he can because that is all he is going to get.
However, in the case of a guy like Walker or Knight, the big money is going to come in their second contract. In order to make that happen, they need to get into the best possible situation for them to succeed. That is not going to happen by hiding information and ducking workouts. Lots of guys who slipped down the draft (Rudy Gay, Paul Pierce, DeJuan Blair, Rajon Rondo etc.) ended up in great situations and have cashed in accordingly (maybe not Blair just yet).
Can’t blame these guys for working within the existing rules for the draft process. Especially when you consider there are 3 maybe 4 Euro prospects that are possible top 10 selections and aren’t even setting foot on this continent before the draft, never mind participating in workouts!
I don’t blame them at all. What I am saying is that they might be taking the wrong approach. Top prospects are looking for the prestige of being picked high and the quick money. That’s great, but their long term best interests might sometimes be better served by getting drafted a couple of positions lower, but into a better situation.
Take Walker as an example. Suppose Utah decided to go for Kanter at #3 instead of Knight. Utah has another pick at #12. If Walker slid to 12, he ends up in a good organization with quite a few nice players already on the team. Sure he would have to beat out Harris for the starting PG job, but given his 8 year age advantage that is something he could quite likely do during the course of his rookie deal.
Anyway, my point is that sliding in the draft is not something to be afraid of if you are legit. You might just end up in a better situation as a result. Sliding in the draft is only something to worry about if you a bust waiting to happen.
So you're saying that the advantage to sliding down in the draft, although you'll make less money, you may have a better player drafted to the team ahead of you?
Ummm, not seeing your logic…
"the Truth"
I am saying players should care about fit and going into a good situation for them more than they care about going at a particular number in the draft.
lol, well by definition of a draft, it typically means going somewhere you'd prefer not to in order to serve the greater good...
I suppose more to your logic, usually the further down the draft board you fall, the better quality team you SHOULD be going to, to a point…
Not likely a #1 or 2 pick is going to the Bulls, Lakers or Heat any time soon if you know what I mean…
"the Truth"
Yeah, there is that aspect. But, I am talking specifically about fit and opportunity as much as how good the team that drafts you happens to be.
Another example, Biyombo is currently projected by Draft Express to go #10 to the Bucks. They already have a very similar player in Mbah a Moute, plus they have a crappy offense and a relatively decent defense. Basically, Biyombo’s strengths don’t serve their needs and he has a lot of guys to compete against for playing time. He’d be better off sliding a spot to the Warriors who need defensive big men, but he’d also be better off moving up a couple of spots to #8 where Detroit could use a defensive complement to their mostly offensive bigs like Monroe and Charlie V.
To put it another way, I don’t think it is in most prospects’ interest to try to hide information about themselves unless they are an outright fraud.
Any influence that a player has on what particular team will draft him is minimal to nil. The higher a player is drafted, the greater the chance that that team was a loosing team wich translates into lack of talent which translates into increased oportunity for a rookie, which ultimately means more oportunity for a better second contract. When you couple this with the fact that the higher you are selcted, the higher the value of your inital contract and add up all the other points above, I can’t see how any agent could advise his player to NOT try and get the highest possible selection. It’s just not logical…
My point exactly, unless you want to fast-track to a bench player's Championship ring...
Then all the power to ya…
"the Truth"
Even then, it's likely not going to net you a ring until you get traded to your second team... as filler in a deal with a star player...
"the Truth"
I see both sides of this.
MAS11 – You’re right, the opportunity for playing time and exposure presents itself on higher lottery teams (usually the least talented group in the league), and this hopefully translates into a better second contract, but DW19 is correct too in saying that “fit” needs to play a part.
There are countless examples of draft picks that get selected by a club that already has players with their type of skills, and they waste away. I think Brandon Wright is a terrific example of this, but there are many others I can think of as well.
Point being, I think it’s a combination of “fit” and getting premium minutes on a losing team that equate into improved financial outlooks for draftees.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 8, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Granted on the “fit” angle, but what control does the player have in selecting where they would best “fit” (which is the context of this discussion). I would say little to none. So they can’t try and angle to get on the team where they are best fit unless they pull a Steve Francis, so don’t they HAVE to try and get the highest selection possible?
In this day and age of agent manipulation and taking prospects to dinner, I would argue that prospects have a fair amount of influence over where they end up, especially guys near the top of the draft.
I’d agree – every year we hear of players who refuse to work out for certain teams, and the agent game of deciding who so and so works out for seems to be more and more prevalent.
Jim Kelly, the Raptors head of scouting, said as much to us yesterday. It’s a frustrating process, and one the agents and players control, not the teams.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 8, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
But again, that leverage is limited. Take Ed Davis last year, he refused to work out for anyone outside of the top 10 and was selected by the Raptors. Just because he wouldn’t work out for the Raptors, didn’t preclude them from selecting him. While players may try to angle for specific teams, by stating their preferance and holding out of workouts etc. What truly prevents a team from selecting said player if they feel he is the best option. Look at Rubio, do you think he wanted to go to Minesota? No, but he was selected there and he can’t play in the NBA until he’s traded or reports to the Wolves.
If You Are A Top Ten Pick
and are any good the team will find minutes for you.
Unless a lousy team is drafting a “project” they will find a way to get their top 10 pick minutes.
For example Minn is not going to use their #2 pick to draft someone who only can play the #4 and have to rot behind their one really good play Kevin Love.
Even if the Wiz had the first pick they would not draft irving.
I don’t think you can be sure of that.
Last month I actually was talking to the folks at SB Nation’s Wizards’ blog, and they felt that even with John Wall, the Wiz would take Irving and look to make a deal if need be, simply because they felt he was by far the best prospect in this draft.
Looking back in draft history too, there are tons of examples of teams taking “the best player” even if it duplicates a position etc.
Philly last year took Evan Turner, even though he was much more likely to have a future at the 3, then the 2, and yet the 76ers already had Iguodala there.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 8, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
DW19, I do totally understand what you're saying though...
If you’re good enough to make an impact, and hence deserve a big contract, you shouldn’t need to dodge anybody… regardless of where you might get drafted (what #) you want to go to a team that drafts you to play you, not just to work guys out in practice…
"the Truth"
The More Playing Time You Get During Your Rookie Contract
the more likely you are to make more money in your second contact.
The higher that you are picked in the draft the more likely you are to get playing time especially in the first year or two unless you are a total project like Milicic was.
Makes no sense to want to get drafted lower.
Would Knight get more playing time in Minnesota (#2) or Utah (#3)? Would it be worth the few dollars he would gain in the short term to move up one spot and be stuck behind Rubio the Minnesota golden child for the length of his rookie contract?
You are looking at it from
more money later vs more money now.
So when a players 2nd contract comes it will (if all goes as planned) be much bigger. The problem there is, not everything goes as planned. From a financial perspective its better to take more money now, and keep trying to earn that bigger contract in the future.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 8, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
How The Heck Does Anyone Know The Answer To That
1. How will Rubio’s game translate in the NBA. No one has a clue. Will Ellington step it up in his second season. No one has a clue. Will Ridnour get traded? No one has a clue. Will Flynn finally get it and not be traded. No one has a clue.
2. Will the Jazz resign Watson or another PG free agent? No one has a clue. Will C.J. Miles step it up or get traded. No one has a clue.
etc etc.
I have no idea has to where he would get more playing time between Minn and Utah. Anyone who says they do is blowing hot air.
But I think you can speculate quite easily that a team that drafts a top point guard prospect, and who has no real options at the 1, would be giving their draftee a ton of run at that spot.
To your point, no one knows for sure, hell, even in Toronto NO ONE would have foreseen Weems beating out DeRozan for PT by end of their first season.
However I think you can make educated guesses based on current rosters etc.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Feel Free
I won’t dispute whatever you say on the speculated playing or actual plaing time with respect to non-Raptors and non-Clippers players or draftees.
On Raptors and Clippers players as well as draft picks I will speculate but I don’t follow the other 28 teams close enough to speculate on their roster playing time.
But please feel free to give it a shot. I would think that it would draw some comments.
With the exception of Yi Jianlian, can you actually name a guy coming out of college that people could truly predict was going to be a bust? Most of these guys and their agents believe they are going to be studs so I doubt that their agents limit them to reduce hurting their draft stock. Besides, interacting with the media would have very little impact on that anyway but players who limit the teams they work out with certainly would.
Europe workouts
I guess you guys aren’t going to be able to hide in the hand baggage compartment and slip over to Europe for the workouts with Vesely and Biyombo. Or are you?
Btw, are the Raptors working out Valanciunas when they go over?
Don’t think we haven’t considered it…some over-sized suitcases would do the trick ;)
It sounds like the Raps are going to take a good look at Valanciunas, Biyombo and Vesely while in Europe, all of whom we’re going to profile tomorrow on the site in our next prospect preview series.
So for Toronto, that would leave guys like Leonard, Singleton, Burks and Marcus Morris for the final workout sessions, and perhaps a few getting call-backs.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 8, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone know...
… if the Raptors are holding individual or structured workouts with the Euros or are they just going to watch them in games?
Workouts be damned! They’re just going to draft them on the advice of Gheradhini and hope for the best.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 8, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha! Yup, that sounds about right....
I thought I read an article that the Raps weren’t going to re-up his good for noghting ass.
No idea. Details have been scarce other than “they’re going to Europe” but I imagine we’ll start to hear some reports as we get closer to the actual sessions.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 8, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
meaningless
without video to back it up!
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 8, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
hey nice
replacements for Bargnani! Suit them up
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 8, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That Quote Is Actually From
someone I knew back in my college days.
It is a slightly modified from this guy’s original quote which was.
“If I never see you again it will be too soon”
It was a tongue in cheek phrase that he came up that he used when saying goodbye to his friends.
LOL ya not sure your buddy came up with that one...
… but I’m sure most Raptors fans would like to say that to Bargs ; )
Valanciunas Actually Looks Like
Tyler Hansbrough. Though it is a bit of a stretch.
Kanter’s game reminds me of Blake. LOL
From Raptors.com
Got to ask some questions in the scrum yesterday but without any one-on-one opps, figured I wouldn’t regurgitate the Q and A sessions.
Raps.com though has video of all the interviews:
http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/draft_060711
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Nice
Nice article, agree with what you’ve said but was surprised by Thomas’ shooting, that’s impressive. Almost wish the Raps had a shot to take him, he is liable to see his stock go up and up as the draft nears.
(FYI – Alex Stephenson wasn’t a Blue Devil – he was a Tar Heel prior to USC)
by CollegeHoopsDaily.com on Jun 8, 2011 10:55 AM EDT reply actions
It’s killing me that the Raps don’t have a second round pick or even a late first-rounder now as I think there will be lots of value late this year.
PS – Nice catch on Stephenson – think that was a type as we had him as a Heel yesterday in our workout preview, we’ll fix that.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 8, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Time for MLSE to splash the cash
As with Alabi last season, the Raptors ought to be able to acquire a second rounder if they really want to do so. With a lockout looming, I am sure there would be teams happy to limit their liabilities going into the off-season.
Might even see some straight up sales of late first rounders.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 8, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I think there are potentially several good sleepers/ projects in the late first round of this years draft and even a few guys in the second with big upsides. I think even mid first rounders will be cheap. There are a lot of projects in this draft but less sure things than normal. There is no Ed Davis in the middle of the round this year.
by CollegeHoopsDaily.com on Jun 8, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
good catch on the Stephensen ...
I’m a Hoyas fan so Blue Devil and Tar Heel are the same to me.
Too bad that the Raps don’t have a 2nd round pick indeed. Some of these guys are definitelty 2nd round worthy for sure. I liked Stephensen from what I saw as well as that kid Frank Hassell.
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
O/T You All Got To Check Out This New Amir Video
If you don’t love this video you ain’t no Raptors fan or even basketball fan for that matter.
It is simply named “I Am Amir Johnson”
Why do I sense him getting into movie production when his playing days are done.
Outstanding
Bargnani Trade Idea...
I have an idea that I think is reasonably fair and could give us two decent kicks at the can in the draft…
Bargnani, J.O. (expiring) and pick #25 to the Cavs for Jamison (expiring) and pick #4. Boston trades J.O. and pick 25 for Barbosa, who I assume would pick up his option quickly if he knew it would land him in Toronto. Toronto trades Bargs and Barbosa for Jamison and 4th pick.
Bargnani may not be worth the 4th pick, but I think he may end up turning it up a notch if traded. Varajeo would be a good partner for him to play with. The Cavs seem to want to win now, so maybe getting Bargs over a kid would help them turn things around quicker…Waiting to be heckled about that last sentence…
Toronto rolls with the 4th and 5th pick…Maybe trades the 5th pick for something else…
Cleveland does not need more guards, especially after they take Irving, but Boston could certainly use Barbosa in their final attempt at getting another ring with their veteran team.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 8, 2011 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
who I assume would pick up his option quickly if he knew it would land him in Toronto
You mean Boston, I assume?
Breakdown:
Toronto Out: Bargnani (Cavs), Barbosa (Celts)
Toronto In: Jamison, 4th Pick
Boston Out: O’Neal (Cavs), #25 Pick
Boston In: Barbosa
Cavs Out: Jamison (Raps), 4th Pick
Cavs In: Bargnani, O’Neal
Doesn’t seem too crazy, works for me, we would need a SG… thoughts?
What would your Draft choices be?
Me: Kanter / Knight Trade Jose for Barbosa’s replacement…
Problem: Knight is going to Utah…
"the Truth"
Sorry, I did mean that I assumed Barbosa would want to go to Boston.
Cleveland is the team that I am not sure would like the deal. If they were down, I am confident that the Celtics would jump all over it…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 8, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Are Thsoe That Are Knocking The Euro Bigs In The Draft
1. Afraid that that if will for sure mean bye bye Bargnani
or
2. Do they dread the thought of another Barganani?
Neither for me, in actuality I see a Valanciunas as being the perfect excuse for Colangelo to be comfortable moving Bargs, if he works out...
I just think he’s likely to be a filler player, struggling to stay in the league…
Kanter prospects better, but should be a career PF to give him the best shot at being a star…
"the Truth"
You Really Got To Get Off This #4 and #5 Thingy
Horford who people keep saying is playing out of position has already been an all-star player twice in his first four seasons.
Talent rises to the top just like cream.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01.html
Sure, you have an example of a guy that made it work anyways...
I’ve played ball my whole life, and I can tell you, despite being able to play multiple positions, you play the best and most comfortably and typically the most successfully, when you aren’t disadvantaged from the get-go…
It doesn’t take half a brain to realize that every advantage you can get, can only help make it easier to excel…
"the Truth"
I Guess Talent and Team Work Doesn't Count Where You Play
List for us all the serious offensive threats who are so called true #5s 7 feet and taller.
Lets see we have
1. Dwight
2. Drew
3. M. Gasol
4. Bogut
5. Hibbert?
Thats it.
What about Al Jefferson?. He is also 6’10" and listed at 265. He plays center and does a pretty good job of it.
Ask Horford to play defense on Yao Ming every night and tell me he doesn't feel disadvantaged...
"the Truth"
Talent and team work usually works out best when all the TALENT on the TEAM is playing the position they are BEST SUITED for...
A team of 5 Dwight Howards wouldn’t win a Championship, ever…
"the Truth"
you're crazy
Even Dwayne Wade wouldn’t be nearly as effective if you played him as a center with his back to the bucket. Nobody would ever say that talent doesn’t matter. That’s just a straw man. Of COURSE talent matters. But when you concentrate all the most talented players in the world into one league, all of a sudden the raw talent that would let you dominate against lesser players no longer lets you stand out from the crowd to the same degree. So you also have to find smaller edges to make sure that you can exploit whatever edge you do have to maximum effect. Talent is a given. ALL good NBA players have talent. It’s how do you get your talent to stand out above everyone else’s that matters. And playing in a position that suits you is just critical there.
That Has To Be One Of Your Least Intelligent Comments Eveh
Horford feels disadvantaged going up against Yao not because of his height but because of his weight and talent.
Does Horford feel disadvantaged when goes up against Bargnani?
Its not about size it is about talent and weight/strength.
Does Horford feel disadvantaged when he goes up against Milicic?
Ask Horford if he would rather go against Bargnani or Milicic or Blake?
My guess is that Horford would rather face Bargnani and Mllicic than have to guard and be defended by Blake.
Horford himself
will tell you he’s a 4 not a 5. As will his teammates and family.
Atlanta has been wanting to get a legit C for years, and went as far as starting Collins in order to move Horford over (if even for a limited period of time).
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 8, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Baloney
If Atlanta really wanted to play Horford at the so called #4 they would have traded Josh Smith a long time ago.
Noah plays center for the Bulls and he is 6"11" and listed at 245 which makes him an inch taller than Kanter but 15 pounds lighter going on 25.
I never heard Noah complain about playing out of position because he only weighs 245.
I never said Noah was out of position
and I agree with you that Kanter could probably play C. (i’ve said many times strength becomes more important than height)
Just saying Horford was a bad example.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 8, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No You Never Said Noah Was Out Of Position
and neither did I because he is not.
He is a perfect example of how you can be effective playing with alongside what people consider a true PF, i.e. Boozer or Gibson.
Would Noah be more effective playing alongside Byron Mullins who is 7 feet and 275 pounds? He may rebound a little more but it sure as heck wouldn’t make the Bulls a better team. LOL
Yea, he plays center for the Bulls...
but is he a driving force leading the team to victories? Or is he good enough to do the job because of the talent and team around him?
See, you’re right talent and teamwork do count…
Now if Noah was the same player but say, 2 inches taller, he would have a much better shot at having an All Star career…
But he isn’t, so he’s good enough to likely get a ring some day, but as a role player…
"the Truth"
Hell If Isiah Thomas Was 2 Inches Taller
He probably would have been the best PG in NBA history.
Thank you!
Just because Horford has been able to tread water playing the 5 doesn’t mean he wouldn’t excel playing the 4. He’s probably underrated because he’s playing out of position.
What Would He Do Better If The Hawks Had Say Howard?
and Horford was playing the so called #4?
Would he grab more rebounds – I doubt it
Would he score more – I doubt it.
So how would his numbers be better if he was playing at the #4 with a good “True Center”?
They might be dynamite together on defense but I don’t see his numbers going up if he were to be paired with Dwight.
I don't believe I ever said his numbers would be better (Kanter's that is)... I said he would have a more notable career...
And if he was on a team where he and all his teammates were playing their perfect positions, and sure then had Howard in the mix… I would bet a few rings would be notable…
"the Truth"
Notable Bloatable
You keep using notable.
You have never defined it here in this thread or at least I haven’t seen you define it.
I define it as more ESPN coverage. How do you define it?
Memorable? A career that the mainstream fan can recall with ease, not just the statisticians who can point out he grabbed a higher percentage of rebounds than any other foreign player drafted above the 10 spot...?
A career that fans from all regions will agree is deserving of accolades, not just one’s hometown fans…
Having won awards or been selected to All NBA First or second teams…
I think he has a better shot of achieving those things if he plays his career as a PF alongside a true C…
"the Truth"
Kanter is Bigger Though Not Taller Than Horford
Horford is Listed at 6’10" and 245
Kanter is 6’9.75" and 259. He said he wants to build up to 270.
Would you trade Bargnani for Horford and then start Horford at PF and Alabi or Ajinca at Center?
Or would you start Horford and Amir or Horford and Davis?
I don’t think that too many Raptors fans would complain if the Raptors could trade their #5 pick and Bargnani for Horford
I think you are reading more into my comment than what I said...
Regardless of team he ends up on, Kanter has the best chance to have a more notable career at PF…
Unless he develops crazy talent, or gets taller and longer (which he might, he is young enough).
IF he was drafted by the Raptors, yes he would be an upgrade over Bargnani at the C spot, but in the BIG picture, it would be selling the franchise short to ask him to stay at C, unless he grows/develops like I mentioned…
Horford is a proven talent, so using him as a comparison is a stretch to say the least, but I can see Kanter’s potential to strive to be like him.
If we could see the future, it would be an easy call… but all you can do is take the closest thing to a sure bet as you can…
I think Kanter is a near sure bet to be a very good player… I just happen to also think he would benefit the most from playing the 4 spot…
"the Truth"
Kanter Has The Best Chance Of Having A More Notable Career
if he plays on a winning team.
ESPN which drives the player hype could care less about players on losing teams with some very rare exceptions like K. Love and a few other really exceptional talents. Even there with the exception of Love they rarely get more than highlight reel stuff.
I would rather play Love alongside Kanter than Milicic who is a so called true center.
Well it's pretty much a given that when you have an exceptional talent to shoulder the load it's obviously easier to play out of position...
Doesn’t change the fact that Love/Kanter would get schooled by Kanter/Howard every day of the week…
"the Truth"
In both scenarios you have one guy who is the "cream of the crop" at his natural position, and the difference being that one has BOTH players playing their best suited position...
"the Truth"
You Are Living An Old Fashioned World
The only reason that people still differentiate between the #4 and the #5 is because of the 7 foot divide.
the only players who are so called true #5s are those 7 feet and over who can not make three point shots.
The list of those who play the so called #5 score and rebound is limited to the five that I listed out of 30 starting centers in the league.
However, for the most part there is no differentiation between the #4 and the #5 in the NBA.
In addition most of the starting Centers in league who are any good are 6’11" and shorter.
All-Star Starting Centers
I’ll even leave Yao out because the Chinese people skew the voting so much…
2011
Dwight Howard – 7’ Exceptional Talent
Pau Gasol – 7’ Very Good Talent
2010
Dwight Howard – 7’ Exceptional Talent
Amare Stoudemire – 6’11" Exceptional Athlete
2009
Dwight Howard – 7’ Exceptional Talent
Yao Ming – 7’6" Monster
So, as I stated, to have an All Star Career, even in the “new NBA”, you’d better either be a 7’ Elite talent or a super freak (athletically or size-wise)
Otherwise you’re just pretty good…
"the Truth"
Baloney
There have been and continue to be many exceptional NBA players who are not 7 feet tall that have exceptional careers.
Duncan is only 6’11" and not an athletic freak played Center on a number of Spurs teams that won the NBA title.
The last time being in 2006-07.
ttp://bit.ly/lOpwX8
Right, and if you ask him he will say, and has said repeatedly, that he is a natural power forward...
If there is a legitimate difference to a Hall of Famer, who are you to say there is no such difference?
"the Truth"
So What Is Your Point?
This whole argument should be about how good would Kanter and Amir or Kanter and Davis be on the court together if they were paired.
You have turned this into a Semantics trash talk thread about some stupid arcane player position label.
.
Perfect, then I will spell it out for you how you want to hear it...
Kanter and Davis OR Kanter and Amir, would be at a disadvantage when facing Championship caliber front courts, because as it stands they are too undersized to be a championship force and they aren’t hyper-talented…
YET, all of this is off course, as it stands right now…
Yes Kanter would be a passable stop-gap for Bargnani, but if playing him at the 5 meant Colangelo stops looking for a dominant true C, then it would be selling the team’s vision short…
"the Truth"
So You Are The Nostradamus of the NBA eh?
You have no idea and neither do I how these pairing would work.
However, if I had to guess, which is all you are doing I would say that these pairings would be very effective despite the lack of an inch in Kanter’s height.
Amir is plenty big enough to be an effective PF. As I already posted and inked he was 16 – 16 in his matchups at PF this last season when he played at least 25 minutes.
That was in his first year as a regular starter and he just turned 24 so I fully expect him to continue to get better overall and visa via his opponents.
So Amir and Kanter won’t be effective because Kanter will get outplayed by most of the biggest man in the opponents starting lineup? I don’t agree. I think that Kanter could outplay most of his opponents playing against the opponents biggest starter.
So overall I see an Amir and Kanter pairing as outplaying their opponents in more than the majority of games.
What you have obviously forgotten is besides rebounding Kanter can score and my guess is based upon what I have seen of his game a lot more effectively than Bargnani.
Nostradamus made predictions, I'm just stating obvious truths...
I will be the first to admit that I would have a terribly hard time deciding which 2 of the 3 PF’s to keep between Davis, Johnson and Kanter.
They all seem to have “very good player” written all over them…
Would Amir and Kanter get outplayed by Bosh and Anthony? I think it would be very close… at the same time both of those guys are undersized for their positions as well… they just happen to have 2 of the 3 best players in the league as line-mates…
Would they stand a snowball’s chance in hell against Bynum and Gasol? No freakin way…
"the Truth"
How many teams have a pair like Bynum and Gasol?
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by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 9, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Hoping we somehow manage to pick up Knight,
Its going to be hard and i believe we will have to trade up to get him, but still i like our chances at getting a good player. I believe in all honestly Knight will go in the first 3 picks possibly but not sure maybe first 4. But i truly dont think he will be there at 5.
Agreed, by most accounts it seems Utah will snatch him up...
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Knight
4. Kanter
5. ?
I think we need to trade up to get either Knight or Kanter… nevermind both…
"the Truth"
The Cavs Could Draft Valanciunas
rather than Kanter.
The Cavs Hickson and Varajao and may feel that Valanciunas would pair better with them than Kanter. I sure hope so. LOL
the good thing is if we can get to three of even somehow if the Utah would pass on Knight.
i mean the Cavs aint going to take Irving and Knight right two PG.
There is No Guarantee That Even If What You Say Happens
that BC would draft Knight.
We don’t know who is where on the Raptors draft board.
What we do know is that Kanter agreed to work out for the Raptors which he did in Chicago and has refused to work out for anyone below the Raptors in the drafting order.
We also know that the Raptors took Knight out for dinner but we don’t know if that was because they had a special interest in him at that time or because they wanted to interview him but decided to do it over dinner. It is not that uncommon for companies to interview prospective employees over lunch or even dinner if the position is high up on the corporate ladder.
We also know that Kleiza has seen Valanciunas play live in Lithuania. We don’t know if any other Raptors employees were there at that game or not. We don’t know how well Kleiza knows Valanciunas and how many times he has seen him play and for how many years he has seen him play.
I don’t know of anything else that at this time stands out about any of the Raptors potential picks.
BC plays this thing very close to the chest.
Last June RaptorsRepublic was hot to trot for Avery Bradley. We will never know if he was on BC’s list or not. What we do know is thankfully Ed was available and on BC’s list before Bradley assuming Bradley was even on BC’s list draft night.
From Chad Ford's Mock Draft #4
Ford has the Raptors selecting Jan Vesely….. I just threw up a little in my mouth….
“Analysis: Bryan Colangelo could go a number of ways here. He has strong interest in both Brandon Knight and Kemba Walker. If Knight’s on the board, I don’t think he gets passed on here. If Walker’s here the question for Colangelo is what to do with Leandro Barbosa and Jerryd Bayless. Both players are similar to Walker.
He could go with an international player, such as Valanciunas, Vesely or Bismack Biyombo. Of the three, sources say, Vesely is the highest on their board. He provides size and athleticism at the small forward position. The other dark horse here is Kawhi Leonard."
Apparently some folks in downtown Toronto are BIG Kemba Walker fans
Sent from one of our followers on Twitter
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Ugh!!
Among those names, I would rank Vesely last, behind Walker and Biymbo.
Leonard would be a better choice at SF and Valanciunas would be a better gamble if the Raptors are going the mystery-Euro route.
I’m not putting much weight in Ford’s take here because he’s listed six freakin options.
Just about anyone could have put that same list together at this point, and I think we’ll have to wait and see the results of BC’s Euro-adventure before we can really start narrowing things down.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Totally Stupid
Look at videos of Vesely and his shooting percentages.
The guy is no small forward. That is just plain stupid.
He is a J. McGee type player and in my opinion will either make it or not make it in the NBA on his defense and rebounding and not his offense.
Just Playing Around
This is a 4 team idea that I never would expect to happen, but that I think is more fair to all involved than the one I proposed above. Deep down, I knew that Cleveland would be getting the raw end of the stick in the idea I suggested earlier in this thread…
The numbers in brackets are the millions of dollars that their contracts would be valued at as of right now
Toronto Out: Bargnani (6.5 because of BYC status), Calderon (9) , Barbosa (7.1 – would need to pick up his 2011-12 option)
Toronto In: Maggette (9.6), Jermaine O’Neal (5.765 – expiring after 11-12 season), Boobie Gibson(4.02 – team option after 11/12 season), Keyon Dooling (2.0 – expiring after 11-12 season), 4th Pick (Via Cleveland), 10th Pick (Via Milwaukee)
Milwaukee Out: Maggette (9.6), Salmons (8), Keyon Dooling (2 million), 10th Pick
Milwaukee In: Calderon (9), Jamison (13.36 – expiring after 2011/2012 season)
Cleveland Out: Jamison (13.36), Boobie Gibson (4.015), 4th Pick
Cleveland In: Bargnani (8.5), Salmons (8), 25th Pick
Boston Out: Jermaine O’Neal (5.765), 25th Pick
Boston In: Barbosa (7.1)
I honestly think everybody wins…
Toronto takes on some crap, but only Maggette has a deal that needs to be paid beyond next season, and his deal is the exact same length as Calderon’s. Plus if the proposed amnesty clause is a part of the new CBA, Toronto could choose to waive (and pay) Maggette without having any of it count against the cap. Toronto ends up with picks 4, 5, and 10 in this draft. Weak draft or not, they would have a chance to pick up some young/cheap talent…
Milwaukee dumps two bad contracts while only taking one back. Jose gets paid too much, but at least he could be the veteran point that the Bucks were rumoured to want.
Boston could use some scoring punch and speed on their bench.
Cleveland gets an upgrade at SF, PF. Plus they would obviously get one at PG with Irving. They are likely to be able to add a decent young role player with the 25th pick.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
This is where the smart money is!
Toronto ends up with picks 4, 5, and 10 in this draft. Weak draft or not, they would have a chance to pick up some young/cheap talent…
I totally agree that we should try and pick up some more high picks.
Reasons:
1. This is a weak draft, so the price should be lower;
2. We are one team that is totally rebuilding
3. We have glaring needs at SF and C
4. Kanter, Biyombo, Leonard and SIngleton are four bona-fide prospects.
5. We can offer them all a great opportunity
6. If one pick pans out to be something special…great
7. If two …even better…
8. This ‘developmental’ roullete/craps game is what we need to invest in at this point in time.
And finally:
instead of sending Bargs off in some shitty trade – why not make him play the ENTIRE year in the D-League. No chance of playing on the Raps next year…zilch… let him burn with people who play ball just to eat and/or feed their families….
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
The more I think about it though, the worse I realize the proposal is…Cleveland would not want those salaries…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 8, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the point is to get more lottery picks - how we go about doing that is the riddle.
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
More info on Kanter
From DX:
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Finding-a-Niche-for-Enes-Kanter-3743
Their evaluation does not fill me with enthusiasm, especially regarding his defensive game. As they say, he has good size and good combine test results, but his actual game is a pretty big unknown. Unlike Valanciunas, where some might dispute the level of competition, in Kanter’s case he has had virtually no competition.
However, in this strange draft Kanter is still a prospect that has to be given serious consideration if he is still around at #5.
His Game Is Not Unknown
That is just not correct.
He practiced all season last season with KY. Brandon Knight , Calapari and others have commented on his game.
Yes practice is not the same thing as real games. but given Kanters past successes in games it would not be a stretch to say that if Calapari, Knight and others at KY think highly of what he did in practices that it would translate into actual NBA games.
I would trust what the KY people are saying about him a heck of a lot more than I would trust one writer’s comments at some hoops blog.
No We Are Talking About Trusing Calipari's Knight's and Other KY Personnel
judgment of talent.
You make it sound like Calipari is some kind of idiot.
Look, you point to the last time a Collage Coach spoke negatively about an outgoing player openly in the media and I’ll give this argument an ounce of credibility. Or a teammate for that matter or other “personnel”. If Kanter was a shit player in practice, do you think Calipari, or anyone else connected with the team for that matter is going to broadcast it? Using 2nd hand accounts of PRACTICE play from teammates and the kid’s coach is a WEAK argument.
If BC would consider drafting a player based on accounts of his ability to PRACTICE, based soly on word of mouth, he would be a worse GM than even I give him credit for.
Kanter Is In The Same Boat As Jennings
All the commentators on TV and on the web raved about Jennings game when he was senior in high school. He was rated the best PG in his class by a lot of scouts. Then he did a no-no by going to play in Europe. So he fell in the draft. When he got drafted by the Bucks the pundits raised all kinds of questions. Questions that they would not have asked if he come directly to NBA, which of course was not allowed.
Everyone raved about Kanter when Calipari signed him. Then Kanter becomes ineligible and no one all of a sudden knows squat about his game? Did they forget all the reasons that they were raving about him when Calipari signed him?
I hope that Kanter falls like BJ did and that the Raptors are the smart ones taking him at #5.
Draft Express Scouting Report on Blake Griffin
Remember this is the same website that just said Kanter can’t play defense.
The rest of the negative are cry baby complaints.
Here is what they said about Blake
WEAKNESSES:
- Go-to scoring mentality
- Advanced post moves
- Commitment to playing defense
- Defensive fundamentals
- Leadership skills
Ginvoy whined about not being able to see Kanter play but yet he didn’t post any comments from Calipari, the other KY coaches or players. He obviously didn’t go to any KY practices which were open to the media.
Kanter is being bashed by the media because he didn’t do the one and done game. (Kanter because of ineligibility). So they didn’t get to see him play the last season.
Kanter Impresses In Workout With Cavs
Cavs spent 3.5 hours with Kanter. It is looking more and more like Cavs will take him as someone else here mentioned.
If Knight, Kanter, Williams and Irving are ll gone, then who do the Raptors draft?
Walker
Leonard
Biyombo
Vesely
Valanciunas
===========
Turkish center Enes Kanter worked out for the Cavs on Tuesday at Cleveland Clinic Courts. His agent, Max Ergul, said he wasn’t allowed to watch the proceedings.
“Judging by the huge grin on his face, Coach Byron Scott seemed very satisfied,” Ergul said. “We exchanged some complimentary words.”
Also on hand for the workout were Texas power forward Tristan Thompson (6-8 3/4, 228) and Kansas small forward Marcus Morris (6-8 3/4, 230). It was the second time Morris has worked out for the Cavs, which sparked rumors that they’re trying to acquire another first-round pick.
The 6-11 1/4, 259-pound Kanter’s workout and interview lasted at least 3 1/2 hours.
Some observers were surprised Kanter worked out against other draft prospects.
“He’s never shied away from other competitors,” Ergul said. “He gets bored working out by himself.”
It is looking more and more like Cavs will take him as someone else here mentioned.
Thanks for the almost recognition…
"the Truth"
it kind of makes me feel ill considering how much cream Cleveland have on their whiskers...
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
Kanter
If we can make a trade with Miiny and get the 2nd pick, I think Kanter is better than Williams.
and yet
we may get him at the 5th spot anyways
its a crazy draft
Irving
Come on, be honest, he’s a crapshoot too. There is no proven stud in this draft. But some will work out, I wish them all well.
The King he calls himself, and now that he says he is due for a big game, I pray with all my sports heart, he sucks out and they lose in game 5. It needs to happen.
Go Dirk. Kidd hits 3 of 5, 3s, and Barea 3 of 4, and they win by 9. Chandler has 14 boardsin 38 mins, Joelle Anthony has 4 in 35 mins. Mavs by 9.
Lebron has a good game; 32 pts, 6 rebs and 5 asts 1 stl 1 blk and and 5 to
Go Mavs.
Mavs
Wow, not bad. I predicted they would win by 9 and Kidd and Barea would be 3 of 5 and 3 of 4 respectively.
So Barea was 4 of 5, the rest was pretty dead on.




























