How Much Does Waiting One Year for Jonas Hurt Us?
Waiting one year will cost us the chance to resign DeMar, and Ed Davis
This is a concern that we all have. No doubt about it. When the Raptors have drafted someone promising in the draft, the picks have been so spaced out that the overlap between them has been minimal at times, let alone both hitting their peak at the same time. Tracy McGrady was only here for Vince's first year. Vince was only here for Bosh's first year. And Bosh was only here for DeRozan's first year. Bosh was present for Charlie V and Graham, but they just didn't develop into players that could play a strong supporting role. Same with Bargnani up till now. So I would argue that 2003,2005,2006, we had the chance to have the players stick around long enough to determine if they were worth keeping around.
And switching to the current situation, we have Bargnani drafted in 2006, then DeMar at 2009, Ed Davis at 2010, and Jonas V at 2011. Draft picks almost always sign the second contract they are offered as restricted free agents. The Raptors recently exercised their option on the 2012-2013 season for both Demar and James Johnson (2009 draft class).
Demar will be going into his last option year (2012-2013) when Jonas V plays his first season in the league. Ed Davis will be going into his third season. Resign DeMar as a restricted free agent in the 2013 offseason, and then the clock starts ticking for real. In contrast to Bosh, DeMar will be signing that second contract with promising prospects at C (Jonas V), PF ( Ed Davis) along with the 2012 pick. Bosh signed his second contract in the summer of 2006, and played the 2006-2007 season with a collection of veterans forming both the core and the bench of the team. He could grow with TJ Ford at PG, and Bargnani at C, that's it. Guys like Anthony Parker, Garbajosa, and Rasho had either plateaued or were on their way down in terms of performance.
For the sake of argument, let's go with that oft stated maxim that "a player is what he is by his third year." That means that Jonas V will have shown his NBA game in 2014-2015, two years into DeMar's second contract, and into the first year of Ed Davis' second contract. Yes, he doesn't get to his third year before both DeMar and Ed Davis have reached RESTRICTED free agency. However, (under the old CBA) most teams either resigned their restricted draft picks to a long term deal outright, or matched an offer from someone else. Hypothetically, DeMar or Ed Davis could play out their qualifying offer, and become outright free agents, however that is a fear that is present regardless of how good any team is. If Jonas had come over, would we be panicking about Ed Davis being a restricted free agent before the 2012 pick reached his third year?
Our "modern" development clock starts with DeMar. When he's looking at our present and short term future, players he goes to war with next two years, he's looking at Amir Johnson (2005), Bargnani (2006), Jerryd Bayless (2008), James Johnson (2009), and Ed Davis (2010), just barely. Regardless of whether Jonas V came over or not, DeMar was going to play out his rookie deal before ANY 2011 pick reached their third year. It's the reason why the line is set after Ed Davis.
The 2011(Jonas V) pick and 2012 pick don't impact our fortunes during the next two years, they are part of that next wave, that helps fortify two more positions and propel us to another level of performance. They are the guys that DeMar will look at when measuring what kind of prospects the team has for support from internal sources once he's signed that second contract. These guys are part of the Raptors long term future.
The Raptors are better served by looking to free agency and trades to improve the team over the next two years, and evaluating draft picks towards best player down the road. This was the tactic they took when drafting DeRozan in 2009, while passing on more experienced options like Gerald Henderson or Terrance Williams. And in that case, there was arguably MORE pressure to improve right away, since Bosh was finishing his second contract on his way to free agency, not restricted free agency. If you're going to draft high upside players, they tend to need most of their rookie contract to find their form. And that lengthy development curve can be the bain of a GM who's other players are ready to go right now. I will gladly delay NBA arrival by one year if it means having a chance at a better prospect in the long run. Its the other players on the roster, not the 2011 pick, that should bear the responsibility of improving their games, and the team's performance next year.
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Nothing you can do
If a player wants to leave there is really nothing you can do about it
Lebron left a 61-21 Cavs team
Kevin Durant silently signed an extension with a small market team.
I think Demar and ED are more Durant than Lebron (Not in skill level in moral level)
Lockout or Strike...
With everyday it seems more likely that at least a portion if not all of next years season will be interupted by some form of work stopage. Jonas might be best served playing a full season over seas in the event of a short training camp and season or even no nba season this year.
by Al Bundy is my hero on Jun 27, 2011 12:42 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The Improvement or Lack There Of By Bayless, DeRozan and J. Johnson Will Determine A Lot
1. Bargnani is history. It is only of matter of when.
2. Amir will stay when his contract his up regardless, even if he comes off the bench. ATP I don’t see him being traded. Whether he continues to start or comes off the bench he will contribute positively
3. Davis will stay through the end of his rookie contract, though he could bolt at the end of it.
3. Kleiza will remain at least for his entire contract because we know that he can contribute when coming off the bench if nothing else when healthy. He did so at Denver and there is no reason to think that at his age he can’t do it with the Raptors if healthy
4. Bayless will stay least through 2012-13. Whether the Raptors extend a QO for 2013-14 will depend on how he performs over the next two seasons
5. Calderon I don’t have an opinion on whether he remains or not through his current contract. His contract is for two more seasons. ISTM that whether he is kept or traded before his contract is up will depend to a certain extent on Bayless’ development.
6. If DeMar doesn’t show any improvement in his defense this coming season he could very well be traded next summer
7. If J. Johnson doesn’t improve enough to show that he can be a solid or above average starter at the #3 during the next season then ISTM that the Raptors may look to move him and try and find a SF to replace him
8. Barbosa – ATP I have no opinion on whether Barbosa will be extended or not
9. Alabi will be traded or released.
I don’t see the Raptors trading for or signing a free agent before next season who will start for them in 2011-12
Bayless and James Johnson on the hotseat
In a lockout shortened season, the heat on Bayless goes up if Barbosa has been signed to an extension ahead of time. It becomes play PG or get out of town. The combo guard role of the bench will no longer be there as a backup. It will be an interesting subplot for me, in a season where the jockeying for roster position will play a big part.
James Johnson needs to produce as well. Kleiza will be back in 2012-2013, and will have claim on the backup SF position as long as his health holds up. I didn’t see him going anywhere before due to his contract. The fact he’s already been in contract with Jonas V (Jonas’ own words in interview) adds credence to having him play the mentor role. James Johnson either claims the starting job, or stands a chance of being moved for sure after the next NBA season.
re: Plenty Of Reasons To Follow Team Next Year
Folks that say the next season is just a countdown to the draft are cheating themselves. There is plenty on the line for coach, GM, players both veteran and rookie alike. MUCH more entertaining then that season when we had JO’s contract choking our cap. That was the season that seemed like a countdown till cap space scenario.
re: link "Raptors draft pick sharp against US ( under 19 World Championships )
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2011/06/28/18347756.html
Yes, he does play center. However, tt’s going to take him some time to bulk up in order to compete against NBA level bigmen. However, we could say that about every 18 year old post player that doesn’t happen to be a man-child (such as Enes Kanter, Greg Oden, Jared Sullinger)
CBA and more
I’d say the CBA is going to determine a lot if those players stay. Honestly, DeMar’s production should be easily replaced and I’m not losing sleep over that. At this point, he’s not really proven to be at that “elite” status. Heck, not even “sometimes elite”. Ed Davis, I think we’ll give him enough reason to stay before his contract is up.
The flaw in your argument is this… TMac left cause his ego was too huge and he couldn’t recognize what was special in the Toronto team. He’s said as much in later years that he didn’t appreciate how hard it would be to get back to the playoffs and win. How little he appreciated what Butch Carter coached him towards.
Carter checked out before Bosh came in. Vince was basically a lost soul that entire season and seemed to be more concerned about keeping his “health” than winning anything.
Bosh left not cause of DeMar, but because the Raptors never surrounded him with talent. And let’s be honest, if you had a chance to play with LeBron and Wade, you’d probably go there no matter what anyways :)
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 28, 2011 10:56 PM EDT reply actions
re: CBA and why past players left when they did
The departure of Damon and TMAC was likely a function of the CBA rookie contracts at the time, where we were backed into a corner after three years. I will give you that scenario for sure.
I am not arguing that one year costs the team anything under the present CBA. Our history is one where the best young draft picks don’t always share the court at the same time, and thus the reinforcements are still developing as the primary star is on their way out the door (Carter—> Bosh—> DeRozan) With Bayless, Demar, James Johnson, and Ed Davis in place, I recognize why the immediate fan reaction is to want a 2011 pick that can come over right away while everyone is still on their rookie deal. This is despite the fact the CBA situation vis a vis rookie contracts is much different then it was when TMAC spent all that time developing, and was out the door when things were starting to look up. Mapped out the different contract timelines to show that there was still .
Full agreement with you regarding the CBA. Having two guaranteed years, two subsequent team option years, and then restricted free agency with the right to match is something which made me confident we could keep players if we wanted to under the last CBA. IMHO, the next CBA will keep rookie contracts the same re: team control, and perhaps reduce the escalating nature of the rookie salary slot.
And I think that's what the NBA will continue with
Because they really don’t want a guy like Kevin Durant bolting. The whole Bosh-Wade-LeBron thing helped Miami and set up a huge rival-hate relationship which I guess was good, but in general, for a team like Phoenix to lose Amare is not really a good thing for the league. They’d prefer something like having the Melo deal come through; trade your asset so you can get something back.
I do recognize that Jonas may develop too late to retain the services of DeRozan, but when I think about replaceable assets, shooting guard is one of those places where you can pick up a decent scorer fairly easily. Shoring up the front line (ie Ed Davis with Valaciunas and Amir Johnson) for the next few years is what I’m looking for, and I think that we’ve got some time.
Look, if Atlanta somehow managed to corner the market on athletic 2-4s for about 3 years and managed to get all of them developing together, I’m kinda seeing the Raptors following a similar suite. The same thing can be seen in Memphis and OKC. What the Raptors choose to do with those assets is another story, but at least they can develop them and ship them off for real needs if they have to. (ie, what Atlanta did a few years ago to get Bibby, or what OKC did to get Perkins). Yes, DeRozan might not play with everyone, but the key then is to trade him before he has the option to bolt.
And that is where a GM’s acumen really shines though
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 29, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This is venturing into pure reckless forcasting but…
I am not as concerned about DeMar’s skillset either. I wanted us to secure a C as a top priority, and thus Jonas V has the potential to be the most important draft pick for the rebuild. Having a C that can carry his weight on offense and help erase mistakes on defense is a huge benefit to any team. And I would place SF as the easiest to replace position, provided you don’t require obscure skillsets due to positional weaknesses elsewhere. DeMar as a SG is not irreplaceable, however, his reputation as someone who gives Toronto a fair shake is something which needs to be retained. Accumulate too many malcontents, and the people that are easily influenced will sway the wrong way.
Do we fall into the trap of getting too good too soon, as you mention in the case of Carter and Bosh? I agree that we need to bite the bullet, just like OKC kept stressing young players as major pieces even after they knew Durant was a special talent. I also think our track record with regards to first extensions is pretty good.
I see the practice of acquiring draft picks in the 2007-2009 range as a fruitful enterprise, a way to take a chance on a player that has likely already made an adjustment or two to the NBA environment while on someone else’s dime. While the increased experience has likely lowered their ceiling (hence why their available), they are safer bets as rotation players and have upside to become more then that given minutes and development time. We have large amounts of both for people that balance upside, controllable years remaining, and the ability to contribute something right away. James Johnson and Bayless being my two prime examples. Marco Belinelli, Julian Wright, Joey Dorsey, Alexis Ajinca…they were worth a shot.
A GM that has the confidence to make a proactive unpopular move, and sell it to the fans and ownership is key. Kevin O’Conner really got out in front of the Deron Williams situation. To the point that he’s leapfrogged a few teams that have been rebuilding for a longer period of time. This is the ability that Rob Babcock lacked, and who knows how many other disasters he would have presided over had the Vince Carter deal not sealed his fate. There are strong external pressures in the Toronto market ( strong media coverage, fans that are starving for a winner, and a ownership structure that oversteps its bounds at the worst times. This is probably the reason why rookie GMs are a bad idea. While they may handle the building fine, when it comes to the politics they would be eaten alive.
Oh, and one more thing… With regards to Carter, Bosh and DeRozan, Carter and Bosh both gave the Raptors their first extensions and therefore, time to find someone. The thing is, the Raptors never did get the right players surrounding either guy. I’d argue that after the Raptors drafted both Carter and Bosh, that they became “too good” to get a high lottery pick in subsequent years to find someone to assist them and “not good enough” to be an elite team. Once again, (kinda tying into what I said the other day) the Raptors find themselves in the “decent” category and that’s actually the worst. At that time, you can only really improve via free agency and some luck in the draft (ie Morris Peterson).
In DeRozan/Davis/Valaciunas’s cases, the Raptors were bad enough multiple years in a row to get multiple high draft picks. And I hope the trend continues. The key is timing. Figuring out when all your picks are about to take that “next step” and then getting those key veteran free agents to come aboard and take that team to the next level (ie Zach Randolph with the Griz, or Bibby with the Hawks)
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 29, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Care to speculate on when that magic season will be? Because it seems the way to capitalize on rookie deals is to make your big FA splash the year before your best rookie (s) are eligible for big money extensions.
I’d earmark the 2014 year for now. I think Valaciunas getting two more years will put a lot of bulk on him and get him to where we need him. Davis will become a combo Centre/Power Forward as well.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 30, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
re: Magic Season and post player development.
A PF/C projection for Ed Davis would be music to my ears. I’m a fan of having the third big in the rotation be a wing guy and having the option of shortening the rotation in the playoffs. Not sure if he can put enough weight on to make that happen, but again these guys are young. When his dad was talking about Ed adding 15-20 lbs in the offseason, I took it to mean as necessary to better account for himself against other PFs. I don’t think that would be his limit, BUT not sure he’s going to reach a Humphries level in terms of bulk (~260) or even if we would want him to. We could end up with a situation where adding too much bulk compromises his mobility on defence.
Starting to take that next step in 2014 would be great. ED Davis should be carrying a significant share of the load in the bigman rotation, alongside Amir Johnson. I would see Jonas V as a fourth big that gets significant minutes behind the starter. Although I have nothing to substantiate it, I have a feeling that the Raptors are going to make a move on Dalembert coming out of the lockout. In their interviews, BC and Casey speak with too much conviction when talking about targeted centers for them to just pick up a discard.
The Raps were in the Lottery
5 of 7 years with Bosh… I’m not sure that counts as too good.
as for someone wanting to leave… well considering the talent level of these guys right now…. I’m hardly concerned. But I also don’t think any of these guys are good enough to deserve to want to leave anyways, and I imagine their Agents will convince them of that.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 30, 2011 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Just not necessarily at good positions, besides the Bargnani year.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 30, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I think they missed the boat on drafting the kind of supporting structure that could help the team not start from ground zero when Bosh left. Or like Utah, provide the pieces that could be traded to jump start the rebuilding project. Now that Williams is gone, they can use players like Millsap and Jefferson to add additional pieces to the puzzle.

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