The Right Pick is Not Always the Popular One - Raptors Draft Valanciunas Fifth Overall
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 10:00 AM EDT
in NBA Draft
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The HQ discusses last night's pick, and voices its frustration with the fan reaction to the selection of Jonas Valanciunas.
You could hear the explosion from fans, the moment the pick was announced.
On Twitter, on Facebook, online via various Raptors' forums it was everywhere, and the resounding cry was a collective "nooooooooooooo."
It was as if Bryan Colangelo had selected Andrea Bargnani all over again.
Yes, the Toronto Raptors passed on college studs Brandon Knight and Kemba Walker, as well as top upside athletes like Kawhi Leonard and Bismack Biyombo to take a relatively unknown Lithuanian big man, Jonas Valanciunas.
At face value as a fan, it's pretty hard to stomach the pick.
Not only are we talking about a player who has proven very little basketball-wise at this stage of his career (especially compared to the Jimmer Fredette's and Kemba Walker's of the draft), but also one who may not be able to join the Dinos for at least a season.
Coming off a 22 win season, and a team desperate for an influx of top talent, that's indeed a tough pill to swallow so to speak.
For many fans in fact, this pick may have been the last straw, and some of my closest friends last night even admitted that the sliver of interest they had in this club had been extinguished for good.
And I get that.
Hell, I've been one of the most critical voices of Bryan Colangelo the past few seasons, so it's not like I was ready to sound the victory parade after this selection.
That being said, I love this pick.
We're talking about a player who is a consensus top option across the boards of people I trust in this process, and one that actually fits the needs of this team.
Sure, I would have been happy with Kawhi Leonard or Brandon Knight, but can you really say they were better options?
Safer perhaps, but I'd say even that's debatable.
In a draft like this, after the top two guys, there just wasn't a lot in terms of sure-fire solutions (and I'm not even sold on Derrick Williams for that matter) and I think Toronto got a top talent with their choice.
The "Euro-backlash" that's now underway amongst Raptors' fans is frankly ridiculous, because it has nothing to do with the quality of the pick last night.
If Valanciunas had gone to UCONN or Kentucky, would everyone have felt better about the pick?
We did extensive previews on Jonas pre-draft and we're not talking about another Andrea Bargnani here.
We're talking about a talent that Draftexpress compared to "Andris Biedrins meets Joakim Noah," and who excels in finishing at the rim. In fact from a recent Draftexpress breakdown:
When Valanciunas was on the court for Rytas, he was asked to play hard and spend a considerable amount of time setting screens out on the perimeter. Roll man situations accounted for nearly a quarter of his touches (2nd) and he scored on an absurd 73% of his possessions when catching the ball rolling to the rim. This ranked him 3rd in this category behind Tristan Thompson and Kenneth Faried, who saw less than 2% of their offensive possessions in this manner, a far cry from Valanaciunas' 23.2%.
Sound like something the Raptors could use?
On top of this I love the pick on a macro level.
Let's face it. Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Bismack Biyombo, Kyle Singler, whoever...none of these guys were making a the Raptors a 40 win team next year. John Wall couldn't turn the Wizards around last season, and there were no John Wall's available at 5 for Toronto.
Now the team can let Jonas develop overseas for a year, return to the lottery next spring in a much stronger draft, and then make a big leap in the standings the year after next.
And if there is no lottery or season?
Even better.
The Raps get a free season of development from Jonas while the lock-out is on, and when things return to normal, they'll be better off for it.
Now that being said, there's no guarantee this pick works out.
However I'm much less concerned about Jonas not coming over and being the next Fran Vasquez, then the fact that like any prospect picked last night, he simply doesn't develop as expected. That happens.
All the advanced metrics in the world can compare him to Tyson Chandler, or rate him as the fourth best prospect in this bunch (as John Hollinger of ESPN.com did recently), but it's up to Jonas now to show and prove. For every Pau Gasol, there are two or three Skitta's and Darko's.
In fact Pau Gasol is an interesting name to use in this analysis.
Some have used the Spaniard as a comparison for Valanciunas, but to me, the manner in which Gasol was selected is the better compare.
In the 2001 draft, players who were viewed as sure-fire future studs like Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry went off the board early and cluttered amongst this trio was Mr. Gasol. The Gasol pick was met with much head-scratching and generally panned by most NBA fans as a waste of a selection.
"Why take some unknown European player when college standouts like Shane Battier and Eddie Griffin were available?", cried the general public.
"Or better yet, high school studs like Kedrick Brown and Saga Diop?"
And it's the same thing this morning.
As Michael Grange put it, Raptors fans have decided that "this is the year they've just said 'yes' to xenophobia."
I'm not buying into this line of thought, and I hope that our readers aren't either.
I hated the Hedo Turkoglu signing because I thought he was a terribly overrated player and a bad fit, not because he was European.
I wasn't a fan of the Andrea Bargnani selection in 2006 because I didn't see his potential as a 5, and Chris Bosh was already the franchise 4. It had little to do with his nationality or any stigma that was attached.
There were other "European" options in this draft that I didn't like for various reasons, and had they been the choice at 5, I would have expressed my frustration.
But not simply because they didn't attend a D1 school.
Really, for me last night wasn't even about who the Raptors picked per se, but more the manner in which it was done.
It would have been easy for Bryan Colangelo to take a Knight or a Walker, but he took the player who he felt long-term was indeed the best choice for the team. Considering the tighter leash that he's currently on contractually, that takes a lot of guts, and frankly that's something I want from my team's management.
In addition, this draft is really a minute piece in terms of next season.
For this team to improve, it's going to have to come via free-agency, the youngsters on the current roster, and whatever changes tactically the new coaching staff implement.
So before we all get too bent out of shape about this pick, let's put things in perspective a bit.
After all, as Bryan Colangelo said post-draft, at one point the selection of Kevin Johnson was booed, and we know how that turned out.
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excellent post franchise.
while i was anxiously waiting for this post i have been looking around other sites and the euro, bc, raptors, AB (not that i blame them) bashing was overwhelming but i actually like the pick very much. Its very nice to actually read bloggers that actually knows their stuff. Thank you very much and keep up the good work.Also some of you guys are really passionate and quite funny. go raps go.
Thanks Andres…apologies it took a while to post too – wanted to make sure I had read/seen everything I could post-draft first ;)
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I love the post too
it was balanced and fair and captured the sentiment across the board. Well done Adam. I just don’t agree :)
Like this pick
The drafting of Andrea Bargnani, the unwarranted extension, and the lack of accountability by the front office and coaching staff is still a HUGE stain on Colangelo’s record.
That being said, I tip my hat to BC for putting the long-term goals of the franchise ahead of the quick fix / safe choice. He appears to be on a bit of a roll: the drafting of Ed Davis, the Amir Johnson deal, the hiring of Coach Casey, and now the drafting of Jonas Valanciunas. And was there anyone better than James Johnson available with the 28th pick in last night’s draft?
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 24, 2011 10:25 AM EDT reply actions
Agree with your second paragraph
Colangelo has done some good. His last three drafts have been DeRozan, Davis, and now Valanciunas.
I don’t fault him for the drafting of Bargnani, for reason’s repeated a million times, and even at the signing of his extension, it seemed right at the time.
You should of added his FA acquisitions instead..
Maybe the question is…with Jerryd Bayless as our starter…would Kemba Walker or Brandon Knight put up the same type of numbers he would?
I seriously doubt it.
by DangerFitness on Jun 24, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
JJ
Good point about Johnson, not only is he better than anyone available at 28, he’s a year further along in his development.
It’s also a good point about the success BC has had in recent drafts, though I am increasingly of the opinion that DeMar needs to go along with Bargs.
by CamHilton on Jun 24, 2011 11:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just posted on this below but yes, I’m completely happy to be wrong here and say that it looks like James Johnson was indeed anything better than the Raps could have taken at 28.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I really don't think its if anyone is better
In todays NBA, depth is very very important. And as the awesome JVG put it last night." At the end of the day a team of young guys is still going to be a 20 win team if they don’t have talent ". “Teams need talent”
We have a chance foir the first time in years to rid ourselves of the “junk” the dead weight.
Sonny Weems, Marcus Banks, Reggie Evans, Julian Wright.
We have good players: Bargs, Derozan, and maybe Amir ( I love Amir but lets be honest hes not a top flight talent)
We have young up and coming talent: Johnson, Bayless, Ed,now Valanciunas
and Veteran glue guys: Kleiza, Calderon, Barbosa
So why wouldn’t we stock the cupboard. We had a chance at Singlar or Harper two guys that are absolute perfect fits for the Raps tall guys that can shoot and put it on the floor if they have to. not All Stars but guys that help with depth. Why Brian WHY????. Harper could have been baught for crying out loud.
Now I can just see Colangelo adding a veteran plug and talking about how they will be beneficial
"Big Gulps Eh, Well See ya later" - Lloyd Christmas
" You Gus ready To Let The Dogs Out" "What?" " you Know, Who Let the dogs out rough rough rogh rough" - Zack Galifinakis - The Hangover
by PaullyPforPrez on Jun 24, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Well said
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He's Getting There - 11th Best Among All Power Forwards Last Season
( I love Amir but lets be honest hes not a top flight talent)
His advanced metrics last season did not go down from when he came off the bench even though he played injured for most of the time after the all-star game.
His WS/48 still remained significantly above the league average of .100 with a WS/48 of .146.
His WS/48 of .146 ranked him 11th among all PFs who started 50 or more games.
So right now he is close to being among the top 3rd in Power Forwards
Not yet elite but definitely could become among the top 5 Power Forwards in the league.
See link below: Query is for all Forwards last season 6’9" or more that started at least 50 games. There are four SF in the list so when you take them out he had the 11th best WS/48 among all Power Forwards in the league who started 50 or more games.
Keep in mind that the WS/48 is influenced positively or negatively by a team’s overall performance. So if a player puts up the same numbers on a better team he will have a higher WS/48 then another player with the same numbers on a lousy team.
He's not anything more than an above average PF, if that.
I dont see him ever being a top 5 power forward
In what world is Reggie Evans “dead weight” and Andrea Bargnani is a “good player”?!?!
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
Reggie's garbage
Just because he can get rebounds doesn’t make him a good player. If you can’t score you can’t play basketball, period.
"The “Euro-backlash” that’s now underway amongst Raptors’ fans is frankly ridiculous, because it has nothing to do with the quality of the pick last night."
I get your point Franchise. Valanciunas is not Bargnani. He’s not your typical "Euro" player in that he apparently rebounds and defends. However, this team is getting a name around the league for being a haven for Euro players which may even translate into a perception of shunning of North American players. This is not going to help the Raptors sell the idea of coming to play in Canada. This perception further distances the Raptors Franchise from the NBA (we’re already in another country). Let me be clear, I don’t think this is "right", however do the Raptors really need another strike against them when trying to recruit talent (the bulk of which – like 80% – comes from the states)?
As for Grange’s quote – "this is the year they’ve just said ‘yes’ to xenophobia – this is a bit extreme. What most Raptors fans are concerned about is the additional risk a team assumes when a team selects an international player. This has been statistically proven (in an article D-Stance linked to recently in the lunch box links). Raptors fans are not reacting to the fact he’s European, they are reacting to the fact that inherently, international picks are more risky (due mainly to lack of data, strength previous competition etc.). Plus do you blame the fan base after Turk, Kleiza and Bargnani!!?? So we need to cool our jets before we start referring to the fan base as racists!
It was all Euros
All around the Raps selection, not like we were the only team taking a Euro near the top of the lottery. I don’t think taking Brandon Knight would have made any difference to any players perception of the Raptors and whether they shun North American players or not. All it would have done is stick us with a worse version of Bayless instead of our center of the future. The reason players don’t want to come to Toronto is because our team has been crappy for a very long time, and nobody wants to play for a loser.
by IWillPartyHard on Jun 24, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, don’t think it’s “right” just trying to maybe shed some light on the Raptors fan bases’ frame of mind and how blaming it xenophobia is a lazy, simple and uncurious description.
Lazy thinking is probably a better description than xenophobia
People always hate being confronted with the truth of their behaviour. “Xenophobia” may be too strong a term, but phrases like “jumping to conclusions” and “judging a book by its cover” certainly are apt descriptions of fan reaction.
To put things in the simplest terms possible:
Q: What have fans been whining about for the past umpteen seasons?
A: The Raptors don’t have a defensive minded big man who will rebound and defend the paint.
Q: What is Jonas Valanciunas?
A: A defensive-minded big man who will rebound and defend the paint.
Of course he may not work out as with any prospect. However, the risk is no more or less than any of Biyombo, Knight, Walker or anyone else that the Raptors realistically might have chosen.
Nobody wants to play for a loser.
I think this is the biggie here and hopefully this draft gets the team back in the right direction.
Mas I get your points on the Euro risk, but I do think this is one of the “Euro-picks” that work out.
Time will tell, but I think DW19 sums it up pretty well here:
Q: What have fans been whining about for the past umpteen seasons?
A: The Raptors don’t have a defensive minded big man who will rebound and defend the paint.
Q: What is Jonas Valanciunas?
A: A defensive-minded big man who will rebound and defend the paint.
Of course he may not work out as with any prospect. However, the risk is no more or less than any of Biyombo, Knight, Walker or anyone else that the Raptors realistically might have chosen.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, not questioning the validity of Jonas being picked at 5 by the Raps. Trying to understand/explain the fan reaction.
On your back foot MAS11?
I think maybe justify is a better word than either understand/explain. If the Raps improve by drafting JV, it will have a positive effect on American players’ perceptions regardless of country. If BC drafted a different player for any of the reasons you used to justify the fan reaction, you would have ripped him. People (yourself included) have been making anti-Euro comments for weeks, don’t try to sell your rationalisation as if it is some enlightening explanation to fan reaction. It must be hard to be you these days, BC has done very little to give you the opportunity to tear him apart.
Franchise, I really enjoyed reading this article because I can see some hope coming back to you. Years of losing and poor team management was taking a real toll on the whole site for a while, understandably so. I think BC has started to see the light a little bit and figure out the team a bit. Now all we need to get out of BC is a good FA signing and we can say the turnaround is complete. Regardless, I hope this optimism is a sign of things to come – for everyone’s sake.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
First off, I say pretty plainly that I don’t think that the perception that exists is “right”. If you don’t think being known as a de facto Euro-Legue team would have any impact on the perception American players had of the team and therefore the Raps ability to recruit, you’re dreaming! Second, point me to my anti-Euro comments. I make anti-player comments, if those players are European (i.e. Bargnani) so be it.
Finally, further to my points above, I think the fan reaction is much more anti-Colangelo than anti-Euro. This is because all the Euro’s Colangelo keeps bringing in here SUCK! As for the pick itself, I never made a judgement on the pick of Jonas.
And LOL at it being hard for me if BC doesn’t muck things up. I would like nothing more than the BC and ergo the Raptors to be successful. However, that was Colangelo’s backwards ass in interviews over the lsat 24 hours making the case for the continued reign of Andrea Bargnani because we had now drafted a “true centre”. So if Bargnani sticks around, and continues to get major minutes and continues to be the least productive and most damaging player in the NBA and extrememly overpaid – then unfortunately I will still tons of oportunities to tear him apart. Also love how in the next paragraph you argue that the team has been mismanged for years (“Years of losing and poor team management”…) yet have the complete lack of sense and irony to chastise me for being critcal of Colangelo.
I'm tough on you MAS11
Because I don’t love you. You turn every post into a dump on Bargs post. I’ve called you a hater before and that I wasn’t even going to speak to you any more because your mind is clearly made up. If Casey can turn Bargs around, I am fine with that – though I can admit that I doubt he will.
But you only ever endlessly post about BC sucks this and Bargs sucks that. Constantly. It makes reading through comments difficult when every third post is you chewing out anyone who might not be on your hate train. I know how you feel about hoops, I even agree with much of it, I just have been getting quite sick of the endless bitchfest from yourself and other prominent others.
Well lately, things have pretty much been going all your way. I know you won’t admit it, but it seems BC is pretty much running things as you would like. If you look at BC’s record since the Turk signing, and the good decisions have well outweighed the bad. This draft should have you cheering that we have finally drafted a strong defensive C, that only slid down to us because others were afraid of his buyout, not his ability.
Yet rather than using the opportunity to FINALLY see some kind of positive (as I intentionally heaped praise on Franchise for doing), you come up with something weak about why this is still a bad pick. You may say I am nuts, but I don’t think that drafting JV has lowered the perception of the Raps in anyt players eyes, other than those that were ignorant enough not to want to play here anyway. All veiled under the pathetic excuse that you are understanding how fans might percieve drafting another Euro, not you but other fans. Surely not you because you actually know how good a match Valanciunus is for our needs.
Of course it has also led to endless more posts about how this might mean we have to see more of Bargnani. Give it a rest. The only thing more annoying than watching Bargs play, is to come to the HQ and read 50 ‘I told you so’ posts from MAS, backed up with another stat. Its tired and boring. Raps hire a defensive coach, MAS hates bargnani. Raps draft a C, MAS hates Bargnani. Raps lose, MAS hates Bargs.
BTW, when I speak about years of mismanagement, it goes LONG before BC. Long enough that I can actually see that BC is probably the best GM we have ever had. I can see his record and know Bargs was a tough pick in a shit draft. BC has made terrible FA decisions (though that might have something to do with the American player perceptions that you are so keen to talk about now). But BC has done a lot of good too, in a tough situation. Sorry for not thinking BC is terrible.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
“The only thing more annoying than watching Bargs play, is to come to the HQ and read 50 ‘I told you so’ posts from MAS”
In order to keep our sanity when faced with the ongoing deluge of Bargs/BC bashing from Mas11 my buddy and I started an over/under bet on how many comments it would take for someone to hijack the thread with bile. We then had seperate wagers on whether the first poster doing so would be Mas11 or anyone else.
He’s like Marcia but with a basic grasp of English. Hopefully at some point he’ll get tired of posting the same two thoughts over and over avian and go to some other site to vent his spleen. Until then the line for first bile post is 4, and it’s a pick em whether that post is Mas11 or someone else.
If the hate won’t go away at least I can be entertained by it.
by CamHilton on Jun 24, 2011 5:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LOL I love it!
You guys have finally realized how you were wrong and deluded your original positions were on Bargnani, Colangelo etc. and you’re just so bitter that I saw the light years before you. Truly sad. For the record, it is YOU who has turned this particular part of the thread to Bargnani. The only reason Bargnani gets disgussed around here is two reasons:
1) He’s still here and BC still tries to force him down our throut despite being named one of the least productive players in the league. He continues to be a problem that the Raps have to address before this franchise can move on.
2) Deluded fans keep trying to rationalize his terribleness and make up excuses for him.
Guys, I understand your frustration
It’s gotta be tough being so consistantly wrong.
Yeah, you get it Marcia
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
+0
while the AB and BC hatred by MAS is a bit tiresome i do understand his point as a fan of the raptors and of basketball. I appreciate all of the inputs on everyone on this site especially the european POV of Renato. whatever happened to Bargbust or is that another name of MAS. LoL marcia, whatever happened to Bosh loving Marcia? Did she changed her name or is now on the Miami Heat blog.
Actually His Defense Needs A Lot Of Work
Its not bad and he plays hard on the defensive end. However he is too often out of position. He gets out muscled by stronger players and he fouls too much.
So his defense has a long way to go but from what I have seen of him in a bunch of games he is not like Bargani. JV tries to play defense and works hard on the glass.
So yes he definitely has a defensive mind set to go along with an offensive mind set but both still need a lot of work to get up to NBA starters standards.
You need to score a lot to have an offensive mind set. If you set effective screens get offensive rebounds dish out dimes etc you have an offensive mind set.
How is knight in any way like Bayless?
Other than that he’s also a PG.
It was a euro backlash based on our bad experiences in the past with Euro’s. Plain and simple.
by DangerFitness on Jun 24, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm voting "yes" on this pick
I’ll admit I liked Brandon Knight and as soon as the Cavs picked up TT I had a little flutter in my chest saying, “oh my god what happens now?” and in my mind I was thinking the Raps may go for JV. I was scared at first because he felt untested, but once the pick came in I became assured after doing some extra reading on the big man.
I would really like it if he spent a year in Europe before joining us and I would also like us to be in next year’s lottery because the Small Forwards in that draft look like game changers.
This year coming year should be spent developing our young core, playing smart financially, and seeing what coach Casey can get out of Bargnani. This time next year I think there will be a concrete decision on whether Andrea’s defense is something we can live with or not and if we do need to ship him out, it is an easier decision to make with JV ready to come in.
like to add
Give this kid a damn chance.
by timboslice85 on Jun 24, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed…and think you make a good point that one of the bigger issues is now how Casey uses Bargs. That may be a big factor in a number of things, including when Valanciunas comes on board.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
There Is Only One Way To Use Bargnani
As a shooter coming in off the bench.
Anything else will only lead to your team losing games.
First Things First - Progress and Good News On Amir's Recovery
IamAmirJohnson Amir Johnson
"@D_Zanfany: @IamAmirJohnson how’s the leg coming? #getwell" better I can start walking on tue :-)
11 hours ago
I have little to say against the selection of Valanciunas considering the strength of this draft and position of this franchise. Might as well take the high risk, high reward route. However, what made me sick to my stomach is reading the comments section on the open thread this morning and hearing that Casey was interviewed last night and started down the Valanciunas/Bargnani will be the Raptors Chandler/Dirk. This scares the crap out of me for two reasons.
1) This means Bargnani is not going anywhere and we will have to watch him eat minutes from Ed and Amir next season and impede the development of two infinitely more productive players.
2) Valanciunas will not be ready to be a "chandler" for anywhere for at least 3 years. Does that mean 3 built in years of excuses for watching Bargnani and the franchise flounder??
I’m all for this pick if it means getting rid of Bargnani. If Val was drafted to "fit" with Bargnani, nothing has changed and nothing will.
This.
My favorite player out of this whole draft was Valanciunas. I watched the interviews, saw the vids , read the reports . He just feels right and I believe he will develop much faster than people believe. Add to the fact that his body is still developing when we bring him overseas next year he might shock a few people. He is commited to defence and has size , while not being a liability on offense.
That said, watching the interviews from BC and Casey I have terrible feeling that pick was made just to validate another year or two of Bargnani. If you watch the BC interview he even says that we might have two players , one who is more of a 4 and one who is more of a 5 and matching them together would be very interesting … This freaked me out . Add in no mention whatsoever about Davis in any of the interviews from both of the guys makes me think Ed might be on the trading block , to free up room for Bargs at 4.
They also said they are keen on signing a free agent C so in case that JV cant come over next season (if there is a next season) they would still have someone to put next to Bargnani. I really really hope thats no the case
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
If they are planning on continuing to build our roster around Bargs...
…I will tune this team out. I don’t care if I’m perceived as a fairweather fan, I will bolt until I hear news that Andrea is no longer a Raptor. I’ve had enough.
Stealing my post for tomorrow but this is the one thing too that scares the hell out of me…more attempts to validate Andrea Bargnani…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
He Never Said
Casey was interviewed last night and started down the Valanciunas/Bargnani will be the Raptors Chandler/Dirk.
Go back and listen to what he said.
1. Clearly Casey is not about to throw the Raptors leading scorer under the bus while Bargnani is tanning himself or doing a GQ shoot in Rome. That would be classless and to much like what the Clippers organization has done.
2. Casey even mentioned Amir last night in that interview in a favorable manner. Of course he started out by calling him “Amare” LOL.
Also go listen to what Casey said how he plans to install the Flow Offense which essentially utilizes P & R options on both sides of the key. Well if there is one thing that Amir and Jonas do better than any other Raptors player, that is the P & R.
Barney is history. It is just a matter of time and the Raptors finding a way to replace his inefficient 21 points a game.
Yeah I also loled at the Amare thing.
I just hope its good PR not an elaborate ploy to justify keeping Bargs.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I hope you're right
because I have yet to hear mention by either Casey or BC of Ed Davis in all the pressers over the last week and they’ve both been trying to sell Bargnani unsolicited. For example, why mention Bargnani at all last night? Especially since they weren’t asked.
the reason they mention bargnani is to try to expose him a bit more, but in a good way, kinda, make him seem like he can be better and improved and that hes still in the plans for the future. this will only make him seem more valuable unless the other teams constantly watch his game, but no. other teams always see the good side of young players as they can “still be good” for their team, not neccessarily ours. it makes sense that theyre tryng to mention bargs alot in a good way, especially since colangelo let it all be known about bargnanis flaws at the end of last season. makes sense, but hurts for now cause bargnani is still on our team.
then..
if what you’re saying is true – then Colangelo is an idiot for exposing him by calling out his flaws.
well, what do you want?
him to keep talking about how bargnani is going to be in the plans for toronto. if so, everyone here will cry even more how bargnani is going to stay with the raps. MAS and Dstance would go NUTS, every minute of everyday on this site. at the end of the yr presser, i think it was a right time to point out bargs’ flaws. why? because we just had a 22 win season! its understandable
now, months after, (most ppl probably already forgot), BC can now say how bargs can still flourish. why? to get most value for a trade, since well, its soon teams will begin trading.
BC isnt an idiot for pointing out flaws. if he didnt then people, gm’s included would just think he was delusional. but nows the time so sell.
Well, if i knew I’d likely be shopping someone this offseason, i wouldn’t finally oick the year I was looking to trade him to insult him. If it took him 6 years to see his faults, other GM’s already know he’s delusional.
Come on, think about what you are saying.
not everything is planned, sometimes things just happen in the moment. thats life. thats what i see happened. BC was upset about how the season went, he went on to tell the truth an say bargs hasnt been playing to what he expected. (of course he expected much bigger things from bargs, obviously).
theres nothing wrong with this, this doesnt make him an idiot because he mentions how bargs still has to improve. just cause you dont think bargs is a good player, another team may. thats the way it works, thats why trades happen. ya, maybe it would be a smarter idea to keep praising bargs inorder to get more value, but obviously wouldnt be a great thing to hear for raps fans, especially since BC was still in the process of trying to get resigned. as you can tell, BC has been getting shit on a lot, if he kept praising bargs, all yall wouldve gone crazy. kinda like what just happened when we selected another euro last night. now resigned, he has to sell his players.
I agree it was impulsive
but it was a mistake plain and simple. yeh it happens to all of us, but nonetheless it was poor timing on his part.
A Flip/Flop from the Tinman
Casey should get the opportunity to work with Bargnani, so I will swallow my words and say, especially with Valanciunas staying across the pond, lets give the guy another chance. Maybe Casey is the coach to tap Andrea’s talents, or at least kick his ass.
Thats exactly where the problem starts. We also find things to justify Bargnani :
this year it will be lets see what Casey does with Bargs
next year it will be lets see what JV can do paired with Bargs
and we’ll keep going
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
+ INFINITY!!!
Every f@cking year there’s a new excuse!
Didn’t fit with J O’Neil
Didn’t respond well to coming off the bench
Didn’t respond well to having his position changed (SF to C etc.)
Didn’t fit will with CB4, was under his shadow
Not enough experience being the focal point of the offense and facing double teams
AND GOING FORWARD
“next year it will be lets see what JV can do paired with Bargs
and we’ll keep going”
back from the deads to hunt you
Didn’t it with JO
nope, it was Bosh who did not fit with JO
the truth
what happened to faith and reason?
So maybe you can help us out Renato
If it wasn’t JO’s fault, what WAS the excuse for Bargnani’s terrible play that year? I’m sure you can think of one.
speaking by heart
that year Andrea ad a good start, a terrible mid november/december and had quite a good season till the end of the year, so the “excuse” would be your selective memory
JO was fired because he could not coexist with your friend #4 on whom Andrea, as deficient as he is, dropped 38 the only time they plaid against each other, althought I am sure someone (you) will find a way to say that #4’s 15 points or so, were way more influential to the final result.
Question for you, since Chris was defending Andrea, could we at least agree that his D sucked for that evening (in my opinion his D sucked all the time but I digress)?
that said, I am not really in a discussion about Andrea, actually I have had quite a detachment from all this since January as a client of mine made me travel a lot, moreover I had grown quite sick and tired of the whole thing as you seem inclided to steer the conversation into talking about Andrea even if originally it was about your last lady friend curvy butt…..
Haha!
Awww man. Always a gag listening to you Renato. Good to have you back!
Too true
See my post above, but I couldn’t agree more. Hell, read the patronizing reply he has for you.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
do not worry
his attachment to advanced stats reminds me of the guy who cannot get laid that, for compensation, studies the whole kamasutra so he can tell the guy who screwed his girlfriend wannabe he suck as a lover….. :))
Love it!
Hurl nonsense because you can’t win the debate. Getting desperate it appears…
not really
you have no idea how low, in my priority list this whole Andrea debate is. I am just annoyed I site I used to like has been hijacked by hardcore fanatics like you, so fun gone. Funny thing is, there are quite a few things I even agree with you on the topiv. You see, the point is not #7,it is your obsession with him so he cannot be just bad at what he is bad at, he needs to be bad at what he is good at and an ass-hole on top of that.
In relation to my comment, it was not meant to be an insult, it was a sarcastic metaphor. I have another one for you. Your obsession reminds me the obsession some hidden gays have against those one who have come out. Now please do not tell me I called you gay or that I am homophobic.
BTW Renato
For a guy that has been so consistantly wrong for so many years about our friend from Rome, I find it very sad that you still show up here just to launch insults. Further, trying to insult me for the fact I use facts, figures and logic in my arguments (eventhough you rely on a base of ntional pride and patriotism) is doubly funny considering how wrong you have been. But like I said, good to have you back for humour’s sake.
italians aren’t very good at basketball, based on evidence
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
and
where would Canadian be on the same scale of success?
you see if you open the generalisation bottle, sooner or later you just end up throwing sh*t at each other.
Hater
Just because you spew your hater BS relentlessly, to the point where you are literally driving people away from the comments doesn’t mean you are right. People are just sick of being talked at by you. You’ve shifted no one’s opinion. Nobody loved Bargs as much as you make it out. Anyone says anything positive about Andrea, like he is the most useful offensive player on the team; and it launches you into several posts. I don’t even think you are just trying to wind people up, you are just literally that sad.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh the "Hater" defence...
Equal parts desperate and sad… When you have no arguments or data to back you up, default to the hater defence. Robby, I always thought better of you…
Here's a stat
Bargs had the highest ppg for the raps last season. You’re probably a fan that believes scoring means nothing and it’s all about defence and rebounds. By no means do I love or even like bargnani; but, he’s a lot better than you give him credit for.
Bargnani had the most points per game
last year? I never would have guessed. Don’t think that was mentioned before.
Anything else? No? Thats the problem.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 25, 2011 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions
If it walks like a hater and talks like a hater...
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2011 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s hilarious.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 24, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Renato’s comment was hilarious.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 24, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
out of curiosity
hilarious because funny or because it was ridiculous?
+Infinty is right
Some people think we can just keep waiting another 5 years for every Euro
Does Anyone Think That BC Would Have Picked Jonas
if he thought that Barney could become the player he needs to be.
Barney is not going to the #4 as a starter next to Jonas.
People who think that are clueless.
Sure BC and Casey are just going to trash the careers of Amir and Ed so Barney can play the #4. Right and Windsor will become the capital of Canada.
Does Anyone Think That BC Would Have Picked Jonas
if he thought that Barney could become the player he needs to be.
Barney is not going to the #4 as a starter next to Jonas.
People who think that are clueless.
Sure BC and Casey are just going to trash the careers of Amir and Ed so Barney can play the #4. Right and Windsor will become the capital of Canada.
If the Raptors don't trade Bargnani this off-season...
…I think that Casey will be begging Colangelo to move him by the 20 game mark of the coming season.
I sure hope so.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
What About Evans and Cousins?
John Wall couldn’t turn the Wizards around last season, and there were no John Wall’s available at 5 for Toronto.
Neither could T. Evans or D. Cousins even when paired together at Sac city.
Even Blake couldn’t get the Clippers near the playofffs and that was with EJ arguably one of the best #2 guards in the league.
Exactly . Not to mention that all things considered we have just considerably increased our lottery chances for 2012 .
And if the lockout occurs , which is almost certain by now , we would get to play our pick as soon as everyone else does.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
If the HQ likes this pick
You guys know your college ball beter than me.
My impression was why draft Walker or Knight if you have Bayless. All three have the same potential and arguably Bayless has the head start.
Was up real late, for an old guy like me, reading all the info I could on Valanciunas and have been pleased by what I found. Good basketball minds like this player. I am all in favour of him staying oversea’s next year.
Really hope BC stands pat for the offseason. Treat the upcoming season as a repeat of last year, allowing new coach Casey to assess his players and hurt some feelings.
I am eating my previous words on the guy, but we have to allow Bargnani a chance with Casey kicking him in the ass all year. He will either get better or break down in tears.
Agree that next year’s lottery, our likely destination, will be best thing for this club. Then come back with stud lottery PG and more mature Valanciunas for 2012-2013.
the interview on the fan590 with bc and eric smith is worth the listen never herd bc get mad as for the pick love it
Solid link HDave…
One thought.
BC is feeling the heat but this pick might actually put less pressure on him than many others.
Think about it, if Val’s in Europe and the Raps (assuming there’s a season) improve even 10 games, he becomes an afterthought.
If the Raps draft Knight, he struggles big time, then that’s front and center for media and fans to attack.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
i like the part when he said that it is also a short term gain as they will have the flexibility tio build this roster. JV playing in europe for 1-2 years will save them money and will get better players. i can’t wait to see all the changes. I know that i will probably get hell to what i am going to say but in BC i trust.
This pick
Pretty much assures that Bargnani’s days as a Raptor are numbered. We may have to grit our teeth through an entire next season but there’s little chance Bargs will last beyond that because there won’t be any room for him to play. You already have a good PF combo happening with Amir and Ed so Bargs can’t play there and you don’t want your #5 pick not playing major minutes in his second year (or first year after playing major minutes in Europe). Bargs as SF is ridiculous.
Unless
Casey has some impact on Bargnani’s game.
Well, that's a win-win situation
If Bargnani miraculously improves, that’s good for the Raptors and makes him worth keeping or worth more when they trade him.
It's clear BC thinks...
JV is Chandler and Bargs is Dirk. There is no Guarantee that Bargs is gone.
We will find out if that is true or not when Casey sits Bargnani for the first time for lack of effort. Colangelo started allowing Triano to experiment with that approach a little towards the end of last season. Casey, a much stronger voice than Triano, is not likely to be impressed if he doesn’t have free reign to coach as he sees fit.
This is a business
Sam Mitchell realized this fast. He started yelling and saying he was gonna do this and that, and he clearly got instructions to tone down the rants. If Casey wants to keep his job he has to follow the company line. You are giving him way too much credit already. I think he is smart enough to understand it’s a business.
Self-preservation for BC
That applies equally to Colangelo. He was the golden boy a few years ago when he was slapping down Mitchell. Now he clearly is not the golden boy any more and Casey is the guy the fans have the most faith in. If Colangelo starts undermining Casey then fan sentiment(which has already soured quite a bit) will turn downright ugly. I think Casey will have a longer leash than any coach the Raptors have employed under Colangelo because if he doesn’t Colangelo himself will be toast.
Casey doesn't sign with the Raptors
If he doesn’t get to decide who sits and who plays. Casey has enough credit built up around the league that he doesn’t have to take this job if he doesn’t get the control he needs.
If You Go to Raptors.com
and listen to the interview that BC gave last night after the pick he said some very interesting things.
I am paraphrasing. “Jonas was #1 on our draft board along”. In fact BC went on to say that if Jonas was not there at the #5 the Raptors were going to trade down in the draft and had a couple of deals all in place, one of which involved picks and players under contract.
In other words like it or not, Jonas was the only pick that the Raptors wanted at #5. No Knight, no Walker etc.
Yes, BC also said that he had been in touch with Kleiza on this.
BC also said “There is no signed buy-out in place”: He has talked to Jonas’s agent here and in Lithuania along with the guy representing Rytas. BC went on to say that he will be going over there to discuss the buyout and his hope is that Jonas can be with the Raptors next season.
The tricky part is what happens if there is a lockout.
However, there is no signed buy-out. BC has one that is unsigned that will allow Jonas to come over for 2012-13 but again BC wants Jonas in Canada and with the team next season if there is no lockout.
What will happen only time will tell, but I am confident that if there is an 82 game schedule in 2011-12 that BC will find a way to get Jonas in Toronto for it
We shall see.
You have a lot of confidence in BC..
A guy who in 6 years has built a 20 win team. I’m all for optimism, but I like to learn from experience as well.
love the article
I personally would have love us to get knight or kemba but like what a lot of you guys said on here next years draft has a lot of good pg’s and small fowards so what’s the other dying need for this team? A true center. The euro bashing is non sense. Can understand the fans not wanting an andrea number #2 but with some of the data and metrics about this kid he is no where near andrea and is a pure center. You read all the websites si.com, espn etc they all say this was a slam dunk pick by the raps. When its all said and done he could be the best player in this draft..kuddos to bc with the pick just wish he was able to get a second pick to get marshon brooks but aw well.
by sherwin316 on Jun 24, 2011 10:53 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
That was my own issue too last night Sherwin…was REALLY hoping BC could get into the late first-round to grab one of the guys who dropped.
That being said, read that the Wizards’ owner was quoted as saying that the price for to move up in the draft was their TWO first-round picks this year, and one next!!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
that's my thing
Marshon brooks some scouts were saying is a young kobe. He could have backed up demar I that’s a postion we need too. Unless weems is coming back? But brooks seemed like an interesting player I would have tried and nabbed him.
by sherwin316 on Jun 24, 2011 1:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
who wouldn't have loved another 1st round pick?
but realistically who could we have traded to get it?
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
so we trade johnson for what?
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I would’ve LOVED a Singleton or Faried or Brooks with another 1st rounder but if our options were 28th or later, I’ll stick with Johnson. At least we know he’s an NBA player.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
+1
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 24, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Got a problem with Advanced Metrics comparison to Chandler/Howard
I read the link quickly and the subsequent link in the article to how the analysis is constructed. The system is devised to measure NCAA player specifically, going so far as to factor in strength of schedule. How can you measure strength of schedule for the Lithuainian league???? I think you have to take that analysis with a massive grain of salt.
agree with you
That’s why I never follow all that stuff really..but a lot of you guys on here like to mention advance metrics and stats to see what a player is about so if that’s the case that’s a good thing for this kid cause its nothing but positive stuff.
by sherwin316 on Jun 24, 2011 11:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
See My Post Below
You probably also never thought that Amir’s advanced metrics would translate when they made him a starter. Well, they actually got a bit better despite playing injured for a good part of last year.’
I hear you...
and generally I think the use of advanced stats is imperative to making decisions in basketball. I just question this particular comparison.
Completely valid point MAS11.
That’s definitely a concern, as it’s a bit of an apples to oranges situation.
I think that’s part of the package then, and why I mentioned above that regardless of what something like that says or Hollinger’s rankings, Val still has to come and produce.
I’m saying this now.
I like the pick, but if he comes over and doesn’t get the job done, he’ll get the same criticism that I direct towards other Raptors’ underperformers.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Go Watch Him Play
Can he do this stuff in the NBA?
Well according to BC, Embry favorably compared Jonas to Big Z at the same age. Look at Jonas upper body specifically his shoulder area and he clearly has the type of physique that will allow him to become a lot wider more more muscular.
The one thing that everyone is saying including you overlooks the fact that Jonas has great hands and keeps the ball up high when he catches it or rebounds it. When BC or Casey mentioned this that is when Casey or BC compared Jonas to Amir saying that Amir also does a good job with this.
I am not worried about Jonas numbers translating to the NBA including his high foul rate like Amir. Other than having to get stronger and developing a more versatile offense he will of course need to improve his defense. However he plays very hard and from what I have heard him say and read he is a gym rat. He is also a very good foul shooter for a Big about 80% and he gets to the line not like Barney. So I have no doubt that he will even be able to develop some kind of mid-range game.
Remember all the naysayers that keep saying Amir advanced metrics as a bench player wouldn’t translate when he became a starter. Well they were wrong because they did despite playing injured a lot
LOL @ BIG Z
Yeh we need another jump shooting Euro stiff
Now while the Big Z comparison might not be the best , seeing as JV is not a jump shooting Euro Stiff by any means , and neither is or was Big Z (mainly the stiff part), this pick is the best that could have been made. While I’m sure everyone had their favorite choice out of the litany of the options available , they all had fundamental flaws that will severely limit them in their NBA careers . I’m not saying JV will pan out, but I feel alot safer drafting him rather than Knight for example , who can’t even play his position right now and has only one translatable skill ( 3 point shooting ) which even that is not that great, or Byombo who can’t even finish near the rim if its not a dunk .
The only other player that should have been considered is Kemba, but ignoring the fact that he chucked it up last year , which we can attribute to his bad team , he is by all means , from the scouting reports on draft sites, a sieve defensively and we already have enough of those.
All in all i hope BC doesnt go overboard with FA signings , uses the TPE and trades Bargnani . With those 3 checked off we’ll have a great 2012-2013 season.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Did You Ever See Big Z Play When He Was 19?
Right, sure you did.
yes i did
and I saw how that translated to the NBA. HE IS A FINESSE CENTRE. DONT KID YOURSELF BUDDA.
I Doubt That You Ever Saw Big Z Play When Was Jonas' Age
Players games change as they get older.
They tend to slow down and be more attached to the court and not above the rim.
Yes there are some exceptions of guys like D-Wade who can still bite the rim with the best of them but he is unusual.
Go look at some video of Wilt or Kareem when they came out of college vs when they were in their 30s. There games changed. Dwight’s game has changed and he is still young. He used be just a power dunker on offense. Now he has moves in post and can score a variety of ways. Sheed as another one. When he came out of NC he did not sit behind the three point line throwing up three point shots. He played in the paint and around the rim.
Your perspective is limited
Dude, please read my post again.
I’m not commenting on Jonnas. I’m commenting on the article that Franchise linked to that compares him to Tyson Chandler and Dwight Howard and the manner in which the analysis was constructed.
So the reasonable thing to do is to explain to me how when I “bashed” the analytical correlation drawn between Chandler/Howard and Jonnas I was wrong and the analysis was valid. Not how wonderful Jonnas is as a player. That has nothing to do with what I was saying!
BIG Z
Agree with MAS here – see my note above.
The stats are just part of the overall picture here.
And people aren’t viewing the Big Z compares in the right way. As a former Cavs’ fan, I remember Big Z very well when he came into the league via that amazing 1996 draft. He was no stiff.
Sure, now you look at him and go “ugh,” but at the time, he was fairly nimble around the hoop for his size. Unfortunately he had a lot more mileage and health issues upon entering the league.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes Amir does do that
But he is ultra athletic (competed in the Mcdonlads All American game Dunk Contest and almost one with a free thorw line dunk) JV IS NOT!
One more year for Bayless and JJ
To show us what they’ve got as full time starters. Maybe one or both will pan out, and if not, we can address it next year. At worst I think they will both be quality backups at their repsective positions, but I’m holding out hope that at least Bayless will prove his play towards the end of last season was not a fluke.
We addressed our biggest position of need as the only true center on the roster is Alabi, and he’s not starter caliber, and maybe not even backup caliber.
We still have depth at every other position, and too much depth at PF. I’d love it if we made a trade of either Bargs or Amir in order to get another high pick in next years draft.
by IWillPartyHard on Jun 24, 2011 11:20 AM EDT reply actions
+1
Raps will be hunting for PG’s in next year’s draft if neither can show enough next season.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Super duper talented
Will corss you over in a heartbeat, finish with the left in the lane or step back for fade jump shot. His offensive portfolio is hard to match.
if he thought that Barney could become the player he needs to be.
Barney is not going to the #4 as a starter next to Jonas.
People who think that are clueless.
Sure BC and Casey are just going to trash the careers of Amir and Ed so Barney can play the #4. Right and Windsor will become the capital of Canada.
Yes BC's track record points to everything but giving Bargs way too much credit
speaking of clueless…
The Pick and BC should get RIPPED!
Here’s where it’s at-
No one has a problem with JV personally, but they have a problem with the messages the Raptors are sending to their fan base.
1) JV is an unproven european who is very raw
- This is exactly where we were 6 years ago with Bargs
- Everything BC said about Bargs he is saying about JV
- Raps fans are expected to wait several years for an AWFUL team HOPING he pans out (not completely fair given what we have gone through)
2) Don’t mistaken dunking the ball for physicality
- sure he can dunk down the open lane on a pick and roll – but that’s 90% of what his videos are
- He is RAIL thin. He will not, with that body, be able to bang in the NBA – and if they are saying his game is banging under the boards – WE ARE IN TROUBLE
- He didn’t workout against any other highly recruited players. UNLIKE Tristan thompson or Bismack proved against each other and other 1st rounders that they play a hard physical brand of basketball – AND THAT IS WHAT WE NEED – NOT A BIG Z PICK AND ROLL ARTIST
- The Tyson Chandler comparisons are fine – But Tyson was very average for most of his career until he found Chris Paul. When he went to Charlotte he was very average again and was traded for almost nothing (he almost got traded for calderon).
3) The best teams usually have a mix of short and long term fixes
- Where are ours?
- I think Biyombo, although he may not develop the post game as well as JV, he will definitely give us at least the same rebounding and better shot blocking. AND IF WE ARE SAYING THAT IS WHAT WE NEED ON THE RAPS THEN WHY DIDNT WE GO AHEAD AND DRAFT THAT SO HE COULD START PLAYING IMMEDIATELY!
4) No set precedent for a really tough Euro center
- Big Z is not a tough physical presence
- Gasol is not a tough physical presence
- Dirk is not a tough physical presence
In fact Dirk and Gasol both need Tougher Centre’s to suceed.
- Clearly BC has plans for JV to turn into Chandler and that Means he thinks Bargs is Dirk
- On top of that we have to wait a year to see the new Euro Twin towers.
- My guess is JV turns into: Cole Aldrich or Biedrins – Moderately physical guys, who are a bit stiff and decent rebounders
- Just dont want to wait 5 years to find that out playing alongside Bargs.
Rant over.
-
Gasol is a tough and physical presence
Marc Gasol. You must have forgot about him.
by IWillPartyHard on Jun 24, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
Will admit when I am wrong. He jsut isn’t the tough, physical, ATHLETIC presence that we should be looking for. My bad should have added the word athletic.
Sabonis, a favourite topic of discussion around here, was injured and slow when he came over to the NBA, but he was plenty physical. He was a bear down low.
He was...
About 500 pounds heavier than JV but couldnt jump over a sheet of paper
Absolutely. He was a physical MoFo. If you are implying that Euros can’t play tough or physical then Sabonis is a pretty major counter-example.
Valanciunas is 19. He is going to fill out. The big thing with him is that, unlike the team’s current centre, he is not afraid of contact.
funny thing is
the sad thing is Sabonis, basktball wise was as tough and as athletic ad Shaq (or comparable) and possibly twice the player, you will find on youtube some vieos of him playing for the national team of the…. soviet union eating alive Robinson. He went over to USA, Portland because he needed surgery on a knee and from that surgery he never recovered hist strength and mobility, he has been playing on one leg ever since.
point is...
it’s very, very, very rare in Euro’s generally speaking.
That's getting awfully close to racism (if it hasn't already closed that line)
Just stop making general accusations against a group of people. Sure, there are soft Europeans like Bargnani but there are also tough and physical ones like Marc Gasol. Softness has nothing to do with where a person was born.
If you want to accuse JV of being soft, go ahead. That’s your right. Better yet, say it to his face (in Lithuanian).
But to accuse a group of people of being soft just because they happened to be born and raised in Europe is ridiculous and the equivalent of saying all Latinos are lazy, all African-Americans are thugs, and all Caucasians are racist.
It's relative to the game
Yes Europeans who do come to the NBA more often than not prove to be soft.
It’s the way the game is played there and there are cultural differences – that’s just a fact my friend.
It’s like saying guy’s from mid-major programs don’t work out as top 10 picks. There are relevant factors that contribute to that, that are indeed factual.
I don't hate euor's
My wife is European, I have no problems with anyone from anywhere.
I do have a problem with a downward trend that people don’t want to acknowledge.
hmm I’m european , can’t play D , can’t dunk but I can shoot some 3s …
Should I give Colangelo a “mixtape”?
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what you mentioned is interesting...
I think we sometimes tend to want to see us in others (or maybe the opposite sometimes).
I am not very athletic (although I was runner up athlete of the year in HS), not the best shooter or most skilled, but I but my ass and get after it.
My coach always used to say I was the best competitor – and I think that is why I like guys like Kemba.
Well that could explain it I guess … JV is the same age as me , I’m nowhere near the athlete he is but I’ve been underrated a couple of times , and I always come back with my lesson learned … Guess I might see some of that in him lol
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
Just to be clear, I’m not accusing you of being racist. I don’t know you so I have no way deciding one way or the other.
I do think the statement is racist.
I also don’t think it is correct, but I have no way of proving it. Even if the majority of Europeans in the NBA are “soft”, that could just be a result of NBA GMs preferring to sign these “softer” players for the other skills they have. The tougher Europeans might actually be playing in Europe. Who knows.
Tough Centre? How bout Marc Gasol? Just the first one to come to mind. He was a key piece to the Memphis upsetting the team with the best record.
About people comparing JV to Aldrich … just how can you compare him to someone who hasnt played almost at all in his one season in the league?
And about being rail thin Dwight Howard was abit smaller and had 20 fewer pounds or so according to his predraft measurements . Yet we all know how he ended up… I’m not saying JV is even 1/10 the player Dwight is , just saying its interesting to note how much a player can develop.
And I get the impression from your post that you think he is some kind of finesse player. He is no such thing . If you look at the scouting reports on his situational offense he was deadly off the pick and roll because he can catch and finish like few others.
Again his post game is not his strength atleast for now untill he gains more weight.
And about your preference for Bismack … he has alot more red flags than JV . While he is marginally better on defence he gives up alot and i mean alot on offense . We would effectively be playing 4vs5 on offence.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
All in all the track record on players like Biyombo has been abysmal (from my memory atleast). His upside is not that great and the risks are big . In the worst case scenario JV plays an Amir like role off the bench for 20 -25 mins . In the worst case scenario Biyombo is in the D-league come December.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know...
How you think Biyombo upside not that great, nor do I understand how you came up with worst case scenario’s.
He just screams of less of a Ben Wallace anchor(which is less than JV’s upside by alot anyway) and more of a smaller Thabeet to me.
And thinking of JV’s worst case scenario I just presumed no development from him apart for some weight lifting , he still could play 20 mins a game off the bench for most teams.
This is just my opinion you have every right to think Byiombo would have been a better pick … I just dont see it
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Thabeet...
doesnt dunk on anybody, not in his nature. They are different kinds of players. Biyombo is a physical athletic specimen. Watch the hoop summit highlights from this year.
Thabeet dunked all over people at UCONN…and Saer Sene looked FABULOUS in workouts…
All I’m saying is that there’s inherit risks in both Val and Bismack.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
I guess I just see the physicality and athleticism of Ibaka as different than JV and Thabeet. It’s wayyyy more physical.
Come on MAS...
If you and I keep fighting this uphill battle on raps HQ we may get BC fired!
So are you just fighting for the sake of fighting? You realize MLSE does not care one iota what we post on this site, right?
Really?
thanks for the update DW – i used to be in the industry. thanks.
Pardon my ignorance, but I assume you mean the “hoops” industry? If so, why do you have such a skewed view of Valanciunas?
Nothing personal DW...
Sorry don’t mean to come off in a personal way against you.
JV is decent and has decent potential. I think we just needed someone more phycially strong, athletically gifted and someone who we can start the process with now! Those are my gripes.
I am about to post the same thing below, but I think the Raptors need to address the centre position through free agency. JV to me has the most potential to be an impact guy, so I support picking him. If you think someone else is a better long term option then fair enough. I just don’t think the draft is the place where you address short term issues.
Fair enough
I agree mostly. But I don’t think it’s an either or. I think you can achieve both if shrewd enough.
I can just see BC opening his favorite site (“Raptors HQ”) right now to bask in the praise of his fans … only to see himself getting smacked by Hoopdaddy for the pick
Then proceeding to start Bargnani at the 4 out of spite.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
HA!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Stuff
First off, think we crashed the site today – got an email from SB Nation saying there are some site issues so apologies if things are a bit wonky this AM.
Second, thanks to all for the comments on the post, whether you agreed with what I wrote or not. I’ve got a flip-side to what I penned this morning that should solicit some more discussion, but overall I like what BC did last night.
I didn’t break out a draft grade, but when you factor in the acquisition of James Johnson for pick 28 (a move I admit I wasn’t a fan of originally), it’s a pretty decent haul addressing hopefully present and future.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Taking in various draft grades , we pretty much got straight A’s . It’s too bad we cant appreciate when we get a good draft.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Solid point…this is REALLY my first “happy draft” under BC.
-Wasn’t too keen on Andrea (although did not hate)
-Hated the likes of PJ Tucker and Nathan Jawai etc
-Not a fan of the DeRozan pick
-Thought the team lucked out on Ed Davis.
So last night was one where I thought the team got it right for a change.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s to hoping the 2012 draft tops this one!
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think....
A lot of people are talking themselves into this pick because they are optimists. Glass half full – that’s nice.
Really?
Go to DraftExpress, read about the kid. I’ve been a big proponent of JV for long before the draft and am pleased that BC didn’t draft for his job, he drafted for team need. If you try not to talk yourself into hating the pick, you might end up liking Jonas yourself.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
BC does deserve credit...
For JJ for 28. But I said at the time it was a good move. Raps were considering JJ at the Derozan pick. And BC has a track record of grabbing guys later in their careers ie. JJ, Ajinca, Amir
I'm disappointed.....in the fans.
While I was unhappy Kanter went 3rd, I really don’t think he would have dropped to 5. When Cleveland picked Thompson, I felt a deja vu when Golden State picked Udoh. As long as Colangelo didn’t make the “safe” pick, and he didn’t. Valanciunas was my second choice behind Kanter and was thrilled with his selection.
I have a full draft report card here….
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/2011/06/2011-nba-draft-report-card/
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Good Grades
Many of the same teams I think did well so did the Author. I think Denver get’s Faried and Hamilton and completely outplays his mentor BC.
Loved Denver’s moves too.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sad to say...
But i think MJ got the best of BC too. Biyombo and walker – 2 cornerstones to build on, RIGHT NOW!
I obviously think Denver and Charlotte did well, but no better than Toronto. Valanciunas should be a better player than any of the guys that they picked, and in the end, that’s the most important thing.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Had to unretire from blogs to congrat adam for the article!
Also like to add:
Though just for Raps fans.. I smell: Jonas Valanciunas or Donatas Motiejunas coming here… both 7’ ish projects. :)
by Ustation on Dec 8, 2010 1:28 PM EST up
Oh God – barf… If that happens, stick a fork in this franchise.
by MAS11 on Dec 8, 2010 1:55 PM EST up
:)
USTATION!
Welcome back!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks Franch… Still lurk once in a while. But unfortunately business, keeps me on my toes. :)
Keep up the good work!!
Oh and just for the heck of it.. Harrison Barnes. But uhh 2012. I was right.. just wrong timing. ;)
LOL
Nice call on Barnes, he will definitely be good. But I like MacAdoo even better.
LoL.. actually, I was way wrong about HB. I thought he would have been a top draft this year after watching him at the McD’s Highschool 2 summers ago.
Can’t wait for next year’s draft class…think a lot of Raps’ fans would like to press the fast-forward on the upcoming season…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
A double hell yeh
Just like we did last year.
Like the pick
I like the pick for Jonas, whether he comes over next year or not. I’m shocked that BC had the stones to make this pick, given his contract situation. Got to give him credit where credit is due.
I’m not worried about Jonas’ ability to play, what he already does well will translate to the NBA game. While I liked Knight alot more than most on this site, I can’t knock picking a Centre over a PG when Centre’s are so hard to come by. We will have a chance to get either a good PG or a good SF in next year’s draft; a draft that is supposed to be stacked with talent.
That said, like many others I worry that this means at least one more year of Bargs. Now some (Buddah) might think I’m clueless for thinking that, and maybe I am, but I’ve seen too much coddling of Andrea over these past 5 years to just trust that BC will move him. I hopeful, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
If we don’t make any free agent pickups and Jonas doesn’t come over for a year, I guess we will find out how bad a coach Triano actually was, as the roster would be similar. That could be interesting to follow next year.
My only complaint from the draft last night was that we couldn’t secure a late-first or early second round pick. Alot of solid players dropped and it would have been nice to snatch one up. Maybe the price was too high.
Better skills. Better FT shooting. Higher shooting percentage around the hoop. More experience in pick and roll situations. More game experience.
Biyombo seems like an interesting prospect, too.
Exactly...
I dont think we need another super skilled big guy. I am of the thought the raps need a physical athletic shot blocking centre. I just think that’s what seperates Biyombo from JV. Biyombo has an NBA body now.
If Ibaka was in this draft he might go #1!
Yes and that is because Ibaka also has a jumpshot and can contribute offensively.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
NO...
Ibaka did not have a shot coming into the league. Go check the old scouting reports. They said about Ibaka, what they are now saying about Biyombo.
That is the scouting report from the 2008 Reebook Eurocamp
Actually, he often ends up settling for a jumper, extremely hard to contest given how high he gets with his leaping impulse and his high point of release, but still not entirely reliable, partially because he relies way too much on that impulse and it’s not always consistent, although he’s showing nice accuracy here, even netting some excellent turnaround attempts
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Serge-Ibaka-1302/#ixzz1QDBsTbCY
http://www.draftexpress.com
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying he was a great jumpshooter , but he atleast showed signs of an offensive game
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Biyombo has been only taught...
to rebound and defend. BC himself said his shot is very workable.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Situational-Statistics-the-2011-Big-Men-Crop-3761/
He is way more raw offensively and unlike JV ( solid jumpshot mechanics , his FT rate) doesnt show much signs of improving and on the other end JV is much closer to BB than BB is to JV on the offensive end.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
But that's exactly it...
The differences between them are things we have and don’t need. We don’t need an offensive Big Man – WE HAVE BARGS! We need touch, athletic – 2 things JV is not.
I thought the whole idea was that we didn’t need Bargs anymore …
And while JV is not as athletic as Byiombo he still is pretty athletic for your average big …
for example
Interestingly enough, even when you see him getting beat at times outside the paint he still has the ability to recover and make a play at the rim, which is a testament to his foot speed and wingspan.
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jonas-Valanciunas-5622/#ixzz1QDB6aCit
http://www.draftexpress.com
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
it's all speculative
what if Bargs stays and the plan him and JV the new twin towers – will you be happy then?
No but I would not be happy with Byiombo either.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I am more comfortable with...
Biyombo watching Bargs back on defence than JV. Biyombo has a mans body and covers ground like no one else RIGHT NOW. We hope with JV.
+1
I do agree JV will be good. Just think we have needs he doesn’t fill.
I guess I am more willing to be patient. I think JV will be a good long term solution and I am fine with a band-aid solution in the short term.
I also think Biyombo will be a wild man next year and it will take him a couple of seasons to figure out the NBA game. He will be entertaining as hell, but it will be a while before he would be the answer to a teams problems, too.
Dorsey....
Does have hops and is tough. But Biyombo covers way more ground way fatser and will block a ton more shots. Ibaka is definitely the best compare.
Chris Sinlgelton said it
That’s the thing – 2 defensive minded tough players were absolutely blown away by Biyombo after they both went head to head with him in heated battles 2 days before the draft. Singleton and Tristan thompson.
BC talked about...
A pedigree and a winner with Dwayne Casey – why not follow suit with Kemba Walker, who also brings a swagger and a serious desire to compete.
Hmm I wonder if a trade would be available to net him , seeing as hes prolly behind DJ augustin on the depth chart atm
Then again it would have been prolly easier to get another pick in the lottery to net him.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
we need attitue, swagger and leadership, good luck getting that with JV.
Actually, I think that is exactly what JV will bring. Did you hear his quotes about “fighting” with Kanter. He sounded a bit like Dolph Lundgren. Too bad he doesn’t have the body to back that up, yet.
come on seriously?
in the same way Kemba did? Come on DW I’m with you on most things, but that’s a huge reach.
Yeah, it’s true JV probably won’t be a vocal team leader, but he is not going to be backing down from guys. He has a no-nonsense attitude and strong work ethic. He will be more of a “lead by example” guy, like Amir.
Agree
Just think we need a killer mentality. Love the intangibles that Kemba brings.
Yeah, Kemba seems like a great guy. I wouldn’t have minded the Raptors trading for a second top ten pick to grab him.
Here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUxKzucNsTo
Don’t HATE!
Watched them a long time ago , yet one game doesn’t impress me…
Now if he’ll be able to do that consistently ( not triple double ofc but influence the game with his presence) he will be a great player.
Now don’t get me wrong I don’t hate on him by any means I just like JV more that’s all :)
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
man...
the guy get’s me going when I watch the highlights. The fact that Tristan Thompson said Biyombo will be a very good physical player in the league and said “put my stamp on it” after a workout tells me something.
Watch the video and at the 3:08 mark watch how he grunts while he ie grabbing the offensive board and then throwing down on 3 future first rounders.
The next step...
To me the next step for the Raptors is pretty clear at this point. They need to trade Bargnani and sign an FA centre (or acquire such a player through a trade). The guy doesn’t need to be a world beater, just a reliable player who takes up space in the paint, sets picks on offense, rebounds the ball, etc.
As far as FAs go, Hoopsworld lists the following players that I think would be fine: Joel Pryzbilla, Tony Battie, Nazr Mohammed. It would be great to swing for the fences and get Nene, Marc Gasol, or Chandler, but I don’t think those are realistic options. As far as trade possibilities, who knows.
Next season is a development year for the young Raptors and what they need is a reliable anchor in the paint that the rest of the team can count on. The guy doesn’t even need to play major minutes because Ed and Amir can handle most NBA front courts aside from the serious bruisers like Howard.
Hmmm
I want Casey and BC to be clear about what their expectations are with JV. If they think he is their Chandler as stated, then no need for the above. If they are mving Bargs and JV is your new skilled big man, then I agree I still think we need a more physical body in the paint. JV will get thrown around in the NBA.
In his early days with the Bulls Chandler used to get thrown around, too. Then he grew into his body and became a very effective defender. JV will not be a stick-man forever.
+1
I don’t want to wait on JV for 8 years.
You won’t have to. He will probably be something like DeRozan. At first he will contribute in small ways and over time his role will expand.
relatively speaking...
Derozan progressed very fast. Solid in just 2 years. I don’t think JV is athletically gifted enough for the position he plays to have that kind of trajectory. The just IMO.
Not so solid
Aside from Bargs DeRozan has the worst Paws on the team. He simply isn’t ‘solid’.
by CamHilton on Jun 24, 2011 6:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What were JV's measurements...
Height, Weight, Wingspan, Reach, vertical etc…
According to Chard Ford 7’0"/245 lb with a 7-4 wingspan & 9’ 3" standing reach.
Though pretty much everyone has him pegged at 6 ’11"
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I think Eurocamp is more recent than that interview as that is where Chad Ford got his measurements.
Bill Simmons review - brilliant:
8:02 — Toronto takes the poor man’s Pau (Valanciunas), getting one step closer to Bryan Colangelo’s goal to have a 12-man roster of dudes from different countries who will score 110 points a game and finish 26-56. You can’t say Colangelo blew the pick because Valanciunas isn’t playing in the NBA for at least a year. That’s right out of the Kahn playbook: I’m not doing a bad job, I drafted a guy playing overseas who’s going to be incredible! You can’t fire me yet!
Part 2
8:04 — The Valanciunas highlights were pretty uninspiring (semicontested layups and tip-ins), but his interview made up for it: Mark Jones asked him why he thought his game was like Chris Bosh’s game, then Valanciunas stammered, “I don’t know … I have … not so strong body.” High comedy. Poor Bosh can’t even make it through a draft that doesn’t involve him getting insulted. Wildes thought Valanciunas was right on the Interpreter Cusp — he knew just enough English that he didn’t need one, but he probably should have gotten one, anyway.
I assume this is not meant to prove a point. Simmons is as a humourist, but mediocre as a basketball analyst.
Yup he's a great humourist.
However it would be so much funnier if he wasn’t talking about the team I’m a fan of and the following quote didn’t hit so close to home…….
“Bryan Colangelo’s goal to have a 12-man roster of dudes from different countries who will score 110 points a game and finish 26-56”
Quotes
But if you’re only argument against drafting Valanciunas is "not another European," then I suggest, no, I urge you to educate yourself about the kid before pretending to be a knowledgeable basketball fan by simply joining the popular (wrong) opinion.
When Scott, Holly and I profiled Valanciunas in our Draft Profile series, I noted that Raptors fans were starting to "allow the play and tendencies of certain European players to taint their expectations of all European-born NBA prospects." I also commented that the possible selection of Valanciunas could cause "some backlash from fans who are firmly anti-Euro right now, despite refusing to educate themselves about this year’s crop of Europeans." And that’s exactly what has happened.
Instead of talking about the facts, which are that Jonas is a 19-year-old, 6-11 big man whose priorities on the court are protecting the rim and rebounding, fans are talking about the fact that the Raptors "already have enough Europeans." Instead of talking about the fact that the Spurs, the team many consider to be bullet-proof and "always right," wanted to move up in this year’s draft just to grab Valanciunas, fans are saying if the Raptors did it, it must be wrong. Instead of talking about the fact that Valanciunas is considered by many to be one of the few young "true centres" around right now, fans are assuming the guy is a defensively incapable, "soft" jump-shooting big man.
I think that objectively, most experts agree that JV is a good pick and we were lucky to get him at 5.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
“It’s funny, because it’s true.” Simmons is the man!
More Bill
ROFLMAO:
8:07 — Yes! The Dunking Ninja is going to Washington! He starts his career with a memorable highlight: Right after the pick, he just about open-mouth kisses his smoking hot European girlfriend as the crowd cheers lustily. That leads to this exchange:
Wildes: “I hope that’s not his sister.”
Me: “No, that was his girlfriend, there was practically tongue.”
Jacoby: “Yeah, I think she was marking her territory. Like a dog marking a tree!”
Not sure if this has been addressed
but the problem with this pick, and why people are upset, is it doesn’t guarantee change. Kind of like a remix of an old song… its either the same old thing with a new singer, or its been completely redone and remastered. Which one are we gonna get here?
JV hopefully won’t be a ‘Bargnani’ style Euro. I would love for him to be a ‘Gasol brothers’ style Euro (by that I mean useful) Problem is, history shows us alot more ‘Bargnani’ style Euro’s than ‘Gasol’ types. Although I think the law of averages indicates the Raps are do for a good one.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions
The thing is that we knew bargnani loved the outside game...
…and we had hope to be able to teach him the inside game/defense.
This guy has those skills (hustle, hard work, energy, rebounding, great around the basket, and looooong arms; wingspan is only an inch shorter than Biyombo) and not to mention a great shooting/FT %.
He needs to bulk up (easy to do) and needs to work on his offensive game. These are easier to teach than the intangibles.
here's the thing
how many negatives did we hear about Bargnani before and right after he was drafted? Wasn’t he a big who could play inside and outside. Could post up, drive, shoot? Rebound, defend, pass and handle the ball well for his size? He was the C of the future for the Raps.
Darko was the (almost) consensus #2 pick behind Lebron in 03.
I’m not against this pick. I can appreciate all the positives he could bring, the need he could fill and the nuance between the possible lock out and JV’s contractual issues. I can also appreciate that almost everyone after Irvings and Williams was likely going to either bring a weakness or be a project.
But he is also thin and not overly athletic. Being a ‘banger’ in Europe is nothing like being a ‘banger’ in the NBA or even NCAA. Defense is very different in the Euroleague than in the NBA or NCAA.
It still goes back to my original question. Is this change? Sure doesn’t feel like it to me.
But if Budda is right and the JV signing is a starting point for dealing with Bargnani (bench or trade) it could be the greatest draft for Toronto since VC.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
+1 + Gajillion
You guys phrase it way better than i do.
Of course.
All I want to say is that it’s not fair to crucify this guy cause of other people’s failures. Give him a chance to grow (he’s still a teenager), and give the team some time to hopefully move around some pieces (FA hasn’t even started).
When Bargnani was drafted (my memory might be wrong), didn’t we generally get lambasted and given low ratings? From the reactions this year, it seems that almost everyone thinks that this was a good move.
I'm not crucifiying him
this is more a problem with the organizations and/or its choices than Val himself.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh sorry
I didn’t mean you specifically, but rather the initial generally negative reactions of the fans. People were calling him a bust before they’d even seen his picture :p
+1
This is the point I was awkwardly trying to make above. Raptors fans are suffering from “Euro fatigue” based on the quality of Euros they have been exposed to thanks to BC (Kleiza, Turk, Bargnani).
"Euro Fatigue" is Officially noted and accepted from this point forth...
“Euro Fatigue”: The widespread disdain and disapproval exhibited by the fan base of a particular sports organization. Often caused by recurrent instances of acquiring debatable European talent in an attempt to improve the current roster. In most cases, the affected fan base gradually becomes less accepting of these attempts, eventually turning against such decisions without any regard to merit or intent.
ie. Following the 2011 NBA Draft, the contributions to the RaptorsHQ blog took a decidedly bitter turn as a case of “Euro Fatigue” besieged the members.
"the Truth"
Hi, my name is MAS11 and I suffer from Euro-Fatigue.... LOL
*Disclamer: Again, before the mouthbreathers start condeming this joke, Euro-Fatigue results from having to watch your team bringing terrible Euros (Bargnani, Turk, Kliza), not from simply being tired of Euros.
Olive branch...
I understand the Euro-Fatigue from the casual fan, but you should know better MAS11. You are one of the more avid fans around here and as such know as well as I do that JV was a good pick. You know he is scouted as a true center that protects the rim, with a best case of a Biedrins meets Noah and a worst case as Asik. Asik played a great role down low for the Bulls in the playoffs, I’ll take that as a worst case. I KNOW you have read the same websites I have, that left me excited about the newest Raptor and you should be excited too. Instead you are choosing to side with the Jo Blow that couldn’t tell Za Za Pechulia from Hassan Whiteside.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Um
Biedrins meets Noah, not just Biedrins – and that wasn’t my scouting notes it was DraftExpress, they are the informed ones.
hoopdaddy, I’m getting that what you were looking for the Raps to draft had as much to do with heart and attitude as it did with skill. Maybe Valanciunas doesn’t carry himself with the same swagger that Kemba Walker does, but niether does Tim Duncan. Swagger is all well and good, but the Raps need some skills or no amount of swagger will help them.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 24, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree to an extent
But I think we are moderately skilled with guys like Bargs, Derozan, Bayless, Calderone (Can’t say he doesn’t have skill).
You are oversimplifying what I am saying with one word. Kemba has a lot more than just swagger.
Again, I think you get less offence but more defence, toughness, explosivenss, aggression, banging from a guy like Biyombo than you do from Val. Again, I think VAL will be solid, but he’s no home run. Biyombo could have been, and this was the draft to take that chance.
I also agree
However, I think that Byombo has a much bigger bust potential. He might be a 9/10 or a 4/10, and is pretty much 50-50 either way. With a pick as high as 5, I don’t think you need to take that kind of a gamble. I think in JV we have a guy that has an 80% chance of being an 8/10. Gross oversimplification, but you see my angle.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Point me to the place where I said I was against the pick of Jonas. I will agree that it wasn’t a terrible pick, especially when you consider the level of talent in this draft. I’m going to play wait and see with Jonas as he’s still very young and very raw. Let’s hope it works out for the Raps. However, as usual, you’ve missed the entire point of this thread. Go back and read again what is being described as “Euro-Fatigue” and you’ll realize I’m not saying that all Euros are bad, I’m saying I’m guarded as all the Euros Colangelo has brought in have been terrible.
Bad but entertaining!
I think you are not giving enough credit to guys like Nesterovic (for his entertaining quotes and passable defense in his first year or two), Garbajosa (too bad about the injury, but injected some needed grit and versatility until it happened), Primoz Brezec(the gangster, LOL!), Uros Slokar(grabbed a few rebounds then slipped away quietly into the night) and Anthony Parker (quality person, ok player, honorary Euro).
Rasho – got no beef with Rasho at all! You knew what you were getting with Rasho
Garbo – Good addition until he got hurt
Primo – Umm ya…
Uros – was actually here (or rights aquired) before Colangelo
Anthony Parker was not European.
Morning time, I'm feeling less combative
Just curious what you think of the Biedrins comparison. To me that is the one that makes the most sense, physically and game style wise. I’ve liked Biedrins game for a long time, but he’s had a lot of health issues and has some weird psych/confidence issues coming out this off season.
I’m also curious about the whole Lithuanian angle with Linus there too. The Lithuanian National Team has been doing very well at the Worlds lately.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2011 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Glad to see...
there are realists out there who like accountability.
and thats what makes this
such a dangerous pick. This guy is going to HAVE look good early. There will be no “takes a C 5 years”. There will be little to no tolerance for a learning curve with this guy.
Not only does that make it dangerous for BC, but also for JV. The pressure for him to succeed from the fan base, and I’m not talking just an ok player here, is going to be immense.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
NsFS - SPOT ON BROTHA!
Right or wrong that’s the way the world works.
Better to wait a year
That is another advantage of him playing another year for Rytas. Not only will he be a year better prepared when he comes over, but also the Raptors should have a stud coming from next year’s draft to spread out the fans attention. It could result in less pressure for Val and for next year’s pick.
One of the things we are not taking into account is the probable lock out …
Unlike all the other lottery draft picks perhaps outside of Byiombo (who I hear also has a buyout ) and Vesely , Valanciunas will play next season no matter what.
Hell if the lockout extends to there not even being a 2011-2012 season , Enes Kanter will not play his what, 3rd year in a row?
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
According To The RealGM Poll Raptors Had Second Past Draft - LOL
at least that is where it stands now
Question: Who had he best draft. Raptors are #2
Good post
I was checking out the Raptors’ Facebook group last night and it was entertaining at how many people (from the sounds of it, most were fair weather fans) were about to jump off the hypothetical bridge (or real one). So many people, before even watching this guy, were hoping that he’d get injured and that he’d never play for us etc. It was kinda sickening actually if that’s the state of the city’s fans.
It’s good to see the real fans have some sort of brains and can look at things from afar without the red-curtains blocking their view.
Kelly Dwyer...
Toronto Raptors
Additions: Jonas Valanciunas.
Grade: B
Few have banged the Valanciunas drum harder than I have in the lead up to this draft. I still think Cleveland made a mistake in not selecting him fourth overall, and despite his skinny frame I still believe he’ll be a stud moving forward. I don’t consider him a Joel Przybilla(notes)-type, he’s way better than that, but I also know that a healthy and in-prime Joel Przybilla was better than a whole lot of this lottery. So obviously picking Valanciunas is a can’t miss, in my eyes, both in a vacuum and in the context of this draft.
And of all the teams, Toronto is the guy that needs him most. Assuming that they’re taking him in the 2012 NBA Draft. Selected on Thursday, though? That’s a tough sell. That’s really, really tough.
Once again, I credit Bryan Colangelo’s moxie in this regard. He selected potentially the best possible player moving forward for his team, because Bismack Biyombo was not going to be able to play alongside Andrea Bargnani(notes). And while Bargs’ presence on this team is entirely Colangelo’s fault (both the draftin’ and the extendin’), this is a nice recovery move. This is potentially a fantastic recovery move.
Perhaps Colangelo has grown wise, and given up on his current roster. I would, too. All of ‘em. And if that’s the case, and he’s just looking forward to 2013 with a 21-year old Valanciunas coming off his rookie year and Dwane Casey in charge, than this is something I can get behind.
Today, though, will be tough. Real tough.
"the Truth"
Sanity is a prized commodity! Nice article...
Jenge is going through the 22 stages of grief in that we won’t have Kawhi Leonard in a Raps uniform. He would have provided solid minutes throughout his career to this team. Sort of the same way that a ‘tough as nails Center Midfielder’ gives ‘balls’ and stabilizing brute force to a soccer team…
So now that I have accepted the Valanciunas (Valan-choo-nas) pick… I hope the healing can begin…
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
Saw this and simply nodded my head...
Completely agree with Mr. Dwyer and again, he and I seem to be on the same page here.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's the...
popular media reaction/write up that you’ll find most anywehere today.
IMO Garbage Article
IMO by the time that Jonas is ready to start Bargnanai will be long gone. What all these clowns should be asking is will Jonas be able to play alongside Ed or Amir not Barney
IMO any basketball writer that like the Jonas pick because of the possibility of him playing next to Bargnani as starters is garbage plain and simple
BC is the problem not the pick
- his history
- his inability in FA
- his love affair with Bargs
- His love affair with internationals
- His in ability to do anything in a draft other than select the obvious choice (hasn’t moved up or down, hasn’t picked up multiple picks or other players – when other teams, really good teams, do it every year)
- Firing coaches for his miscues
The list goes on…and so does just another season….
Greatest Raptor Draft Pick????
Antwan Jamison :)
Hey Franchise....
Whatever happened to Darren Andrade from Hoopsworld? – he was my mentor while I was there.
Darren?? He’s still around, but writes solo for Sway Sports now. I did some radio stuff with him on the Fan last summer and see him around the ACC a lot. Great guy.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Context
I think those fans most opposed to this draft, view it in the context of previous Raptors coaching/development environments. The reason teams like the Spurs seem to be universally praised for their drafting and finding of value is that they take a player and fold him into a solid system of development grounded in fundamentals that translate to making most of strengths. The end result is winning. The Raptors have not been known for creating such an environment, but I would say the hiring of Casey was a good step in this direction. Dwyer mentioned in an article on the hiring of Casey that Casey should be considered the cornerstone, and I will take that further and say that, if he is the right coach, then the goal should be to build around HIM as opposed to any particular “franchise player”. His goal will be to communicate and get buy-in on his philosophies on “winning” basketball. If they are the right philosophies, they will reinforce themselves by showing well in the W-L column. The teams that seem to always get most out of draft picks regardless of where they are picking are the teams with the best environments/best coaching staffs (think Utah in the Sloan era or the Spurs with Pops). They turn unheralded types like a George Hill/ Gary Neal into useful players/valued trading chips that contribute to winning situations. These same teams are not necessarily attractive free agent landing spots either. So, if the Raptors Management has finally seen the light and begun taking steps in this direction, we will be well served as fans.
So the best way to view the situation is to appreciate that a lot went into the decision, that people paid to do this professionally took the task seriously in hopes of achieving the goals all fans will ultimately want to see. Some luck will go into seeing this through to its championship end, but success comes when opportunity meets preparation and hopefully management is keen on preparing to succeed and capitalizing on whatever opportunities present themselves.
Specifically on the pick of JV – who knows. I’ve read a little, seen some clips, but isn’t everyone can’t miss until they miss? Who was that upside athletic point guard the Raps should have taken that fell to the Celtics last year? It will take a few people a couple of minutes to answer this question and that is sort of my point here. People have to relax and wait for the games. Everything right now is noise, I prefer judging on actual, tangible signals.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
WHERE'S MY $100?
Oh HQ Interloper, so good to see you back! Bet you thought I forgot. Well you owe me, D-Stance and a few others $100 to us or to our charities of choice if the Raptors didn’t win 30 games (you actually thought they may win 50 – but that’s neirther here nor there….). We all know now how it all turned out, so….
My preferance is for you donate my $100 to Kiva: http://www.kiva.org/?_redirect=true&page=intro&gclid=CPXf26muz6kCFcTBKgodzn-hOA
Do the honourable thing HQ Interloper, man up, don’t make me go back and get the quote and post it.
Nemesis!
LOL. Of course I didn’t forget. I time my gifting for the Holidays (December) and have made the necessary provisions for such gifting. I will post the necessary “Name your Charity” list in November so that we can settle our friendly wager. I still say Triano screwed me but I will man up and do the right thing in the right way. i guess you agree with the post
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Jun 24, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with the article partially
I would agree to build around a philosophy is the right view and to build around players OR coaches is the wrong view.
Sam Presti in OKC didn’t have the players or coaches when he started, but as you articulately mention above, he implemented a system of uncompromising integrity and work ethic.
If Casey is the end all and be all, he wouldn’t have finished as a runner to half dozen coaching jobs.
Passing on Knight AND Walker doesn't make sense
I think I’ve said this before, but I’ll risk repeating myself. If JV were as good a centre as so many people are claiming he is, he’d have gone first overall. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, there’s not an abundance of dominant centres in the NBA right now.
In the meantime the Raps passed a guard who took a mediocre UConn team and carried it on his back to a national title. And you’re telling me Kemba Walker can’t be – at the bare minimum – a key cog in anyone’s guard rotation?
They also passed on a young point guard who by all accounts is whip smart and a total gym rat, with the potential to excel at both ends of the floor. Watch out for Knight – he’s going to playing with a HUGE chip on his shoulder. Oh, and he helped lead his team to the Final Four.
So yes, in my humble opinion, the Raptors had better options than JV. And if that makes me a xenophobe in the eyes of Michael Grange, he can stick it where the sun don’t shine. Sideways.
you know
I was very much against Kemba early….
but I’m really starting to get the feeling that he is going to be a good player. (Although probably not the passing PG I’d want on a team though)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
he wasn’t looking to pass because of the make up of his team. How anyone criticizes Kemba (i know ur not) after the season he just had is beyond me. Anyone who doesn’t understand that he has taken huge steps each summer to improves his game, isn’t paying close enough attention. I don’t think he’s reached his ceiling, not even close.
I dont understand how people can say Knight has better passing skills or is a better pg when they had almost the same number of assists last season /40 minutes while Kemba had fewer turnovers .
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Done my man...
Don’t sucumb to these other BC loyalists :)
The reasons why he didnt go number one overall are simple : buyout , inexperience, project from europe ,etc
Now while I like Walker , he is going to be a solid pg , I just think JV will ultimately end up contributing more to the team than any of the pg picks.
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Raptors Pick Up Options on DeRozan, Johnson and Davis
From the Raps’ Press Folks:
The Toronto Raptors announced Friday they have exercised team options on the Rookie Scale Contracts of guard-forward DeMar DeRozan and forwards James Johnson and Ed Davis. The club picked up the fourth year team options for DeRozan and Johnson and the third year option for Davis. The contracts for all players are now guaranteed through the 2012-13 season. In accordance with the league’s collective bargaining agreement, the Raptors had until October 31 to exercise their option on the three players. Per team policy, financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Sweet news, now how about the rest of the bums? ;)
Franchise, do you think Weems is going to get another shot?
If Barbosa doesn’t re-up there is a void… will Casey (and a healthy back) be the difference maker in Sonny’s career?
"the Truth"
Hey RHQ, now that the draft is done maybe you guys could do a write-up on the Raptors salary cap situation as best we understand it right now.
Do these guys get paid in the event of a lockout?
If there is a lockout can Barbosa still exercise his player option after it starts?
How does this impact the team’s salary cap situation?
Did these contract count as cap holds or anything like that?
If JV stays in Europe is there a cap hold proportion to his rookie scale salary?
I am sure there are many more questions that you and others will have.
Great idea
I’m going to reach out to Sonny’s agent actually to see if I can get an idea of which direction the team is headed in regards to his future.
As well, a budget analysis is a must. We’ll probably do one up for next week.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
personally I’d let him go and get a 3 point shooting swingman to help adress our glaring need for that . The only problem is there are not many FA 3 point shooting swingman available , the only 2 ive seen going through the list are Jason Kapono (lol) and Sasha Vujacic .
by Shadowseeker on Jun 24, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
great post , i hope val can bulk up alot and become the tough rim protector we need
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 24, 2011 5:39 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks, and find myself hoping for the same thing.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 24, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
HEY GUYS!
BARGNANI SUCKS!
= D
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
After busting on Araujo and Bargnani, drafting another international big man for the raptors took some stones. But I’d rather see the Raptors taking a high-risk shot at a possible star in a hard-to-fill position than draft a decent guard or forward, which was what was available to them at the five spot in a historically weak draft. They are a dime a dozen in the league. I reject any xenophobia against euros, but I must admit that at that start of the draft process the idea of drafting another euro-center would have made me spit out my coffee. But I think JV is a different case and I’ve come around
I hope so my man...
Just a bad track record so far.
Walker and Kemba are really good
And have the potential to be all stars. I’d rather take a guy I know is good who could be great, then a guy who could be great. Think of it over the long haul if you keep adding good players you’ll have a good team, and maybe one of them will pan out. Keep adding high risk players; however, and you’ll have a shitty team with a superstar on it.
It could be worse
One of the Timberwolves’ draft picks lied about his age.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
When I said bi-polar ..... I always considered that somewhat of an exaggeration
.
Fans can be finical. Somewhat surprised by the reaction, and then again, not.
.
For me, my reality is/was, as a Walker fan. The assumption being, Knight, Kanter, Irving and Williams being gone. Which of course would infer that I’ve morphed into Kreskin, and going 4 for 4 was easier than watching a Bargnani noodle commercial.
.
Kemba represented a belief, as a potential guy who could – one day – be that Leader. I have always felt this team in growth, needed to corral all the Followers and take out the disjointedness that has revolved around Raptor locker rooms for too long.
When you ask yourself who you would – as a reporter – want to interview, if it was a team interview, and not about a specific player (that you like or dislike). Who would that guy be? For the past few years I could not give you a real solid name. And that’s in hindsight, something we’ve all had great skill with at times.
.
Then BC throws out a curve ball, and catches me frozen — like a deer in the headlights. Once I catch up, I realize this pick has a certain enticement about it.
Impatient as I can be with wanting instant gratification, I have to say … Colangelo showed balls in making this move. Jonas – as I’m reading more on – has many supporters. He`s big for a young kid, with great potential to be a beast with another 15 – 20 pounds (assuming he really is 230 pounds). He could be our Centre. That illusive defensive guy we almost had last year. A ying to that you know who yang.
While I acknowledge the Bargnani support (with limits), I`m led to believe this could mean one of Ed or Amir will be shopped. AJ much more so than Davis – which may be biased, as Ed is another player I like.
.
There are assumptions to these beliefs, a few of them being:
- Jonas being here at the beginning. BC has had many roadblocks before, even if he created some of them. But in the end, he has shown a predilection for altering his direction. And 2.5 million reasons doesn`t seem like enough resistance to me. JV wants to be here, and I suspect he`d rather grab that opportunity now, despite the cost. We know BC`s in for 500.
- Andrea is moved to PF. With a probable Davis built as the combo back-up Centre/PF. And JV is our Chandler. As much as some are at ill with this thought, the reality is, Casey sees a opportunity to reform an enigma. If he can do with an MVP, can he work it on MVP-lite (lol).
- This is also on Andrea to show improvement. A thought that scares the beejesus of some who need him to fail.
- Amir and Ed may fit on a Contender team, and excel, but right now, Raps have needs that require other places to fill. And in the spirit of what many say around here, Amir offers the best reward. IMO
.
Don't trade Amir
The Raptors big man rotation of the future should be JV-Ed-Amir. I would absolutely not trade Amir.
Not enough scoring
.
And our 3 point shooting would drop, although 30 is the bottom, so I guess it doesn`t matter.
As for Demar, he would be crucified. Defenses would collapse, and negate penetration.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jun 24, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Ed, Amir and Jonas should all be capable of averaging 10+ points a game on post ups, cuts to the basket, pick and rolls, put-backs, 10-15 foot jumpers, free throws, etc. That is plenty from the front court.
Also, the Raptors will likely be drafting a good SF who can hit an outside shot. If they are lucky that will be a guy like Harrison Barnes or Quincy Miller. DeRozan and Miller/Barnes/other will be the engine of the Raptors offense going forward.
Amir Will Increase His PPG to over 15
He averaged over 12 PPG in 29 games in Jan and Feb before he was hurt.
I still think Amir will bed a 17 – 8 guy
we shall see
Harrison Barnes - Right
And Bosh will demand a trade back to the Raptors.
Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
With Amir-Ed-Jonas the Raptors should have a good two-way front court rotation down the road. They should look to supplement that through next year’s draft by adding talent on the wings (Barnes/Miller being examples) or at the point (if Bayless doesn’t work out).
Of course, if Bargnani is traded for a wing scorer who can hit a 3 point shot then they might fill that hole sooner rather than later.
If BC
Trades one of Amir or Ed Davis before Andrea…. it could be the dumbest move he has ever made.
Beyond that it would be a complete travesty to Raptors basketball.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Not worth arguing this.
RapthoseLeafs would trade his first born before Andrea… But yes, absolutely dumb to trade one of the team’s most productive players to make room for one of the least productive. But hey, I must be a hater because I use logic…
Well hater
I suppose it depends what we would get in return. I doubt we’d get much for Bargnani and his big contract, it isn’t smart to trade a player when his value is low. Whereas I bet Ed Davis would get us something pretty damn good to address a different need. I like Ed a lot and might be more inclined to trade Amir for something, but I think that Amir is probably a little under rated around the league, so we might not get value back.
Real logic, not hater logic, suggests you make a trade when a players value is high, and hold him when it is low.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2011 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I still wouldn’t trade Ed or Amir. I think those two guys play well together and are very well suited to Coach Casey’s philosophy.
As far as Bargnani, I would trade him for his own benefit as much as the team. I don’t really want to see a defense that attempts to cover up his flaws, which largely result from lack of consistent effort. Also, I think JV-Ed-Amir will be an excellent big man rotation which leaves Bargnani out in the cold. I don’t have anything against the guy, but I don’t think he fits in the team’s long term plans. He is a surplus asset that it would be beneficial to cash in on for whatever return he can bring.
If you think Bargnani’s value is going to get any higher than it is right now, when he’s coming off a year where the offence was forced through him and he scored 20ppg (although unefficiently) and he was not held accountable for doing nothing else, God bless you. Here’s what’s going to happen in the future – Casey is going to restric his minutes and oportunities as he’s not an empty suite doing BC’s bidding and allowing Bargnani to do whatever he wants without giving any effort. So his minutes and production are going to go down. So if your argument is to trade him when his value is at its peek, trade him now.
I still don't Understand
How everyone is automatically thinking JV, Davis and Amir are now a solid frontcourt. Has anyone even really seen JV play? Play against NBA players? He may be great but none of us really know. To just assume that’s our frontcourt for the next 10 years is absurd. As for the Amir and Davis love I think they’re both fine role players but they’re not superstars, and in my opinon never will be. However, that is just my opinion
I would rather trade Bargs and hope that BC is open to it, but anybody on this team should be tradable if the right offer is presented to BC.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jun 24, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
JV buyout agreed
According to Jonathon Givony (DraftExpress) on twitter the buyout for JV has been agreed and he will be coming over in 2012. No link, sorry.
Sports Illustrated Coments About The Raptors Pick
Sports Illustrated
President and GM Bryan Colangelo nails the half-court shot here, as Valanciunas became the apple of almost every lottery team’s eye in recent days. He might not be available to join the Raptors next season, but he can man the middle for Toronto for a decade to come thereafter. He’s a skilled and efficient scorer who can still fill out his 19-year-old frame.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/2011/draft/tracker/draft_analysis/index.html
It's official
JV will come to Toronto in 2012-2013
Recent News
The Raptors have reached a buyout agreement with Lietuvos for No. 5 pick Jonas Valanciunas, who will come to the NBA in 2012-13.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1832/jonas-valanciunas
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
Here is the Givony Tweet - About 45 Minutes Ago
DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
Just informed that Jonas Valanciunas’ buyout was officially agreed upon & signed this afternoon. He’ll be free to sign with Toronto in 2012.
43 minutes ago
Personally I will wait for a confirmation from BC since Givony uses the nebulous term “Just Informed” without a link.
He could be correct but it is too nebulous for me.
In any case the way that the Union is playing hard ball to screw the fans there might not even be a 2011-12 season.
Rotoworld Official - RFLMAO
Though it could be true I would rely on Rotoworld for news of this kind like I would rely on Government budgets
Okay Buddah, every link except yours doesn’t count. I use rotoworld all the time and I can’t remember a time it’s been innacurate.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
Okay RotoWorld Knows More About It Than Raptors Reporters.
I will wait for the real people to report on it. Not the fantasy people
Rotoworld doesn’t use people who tweet about fantasy for information. The tweet in the rowotorld blurb is in fact from a Toronto reporter.
ekoreen Eric Koreen
A source with knowledge of the negotiations confirms #Raptors reach buyout agreement with Lietuvos for Valanciunas. He joins TO in 12-13.
1 hour ago
He writes for the National Post. It wasn’t Givony’s tweet.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
Its None of the Union's Damn Business
How much the league makes.
The idea that employees can see how much money their boss makes is insanity and just goes to show the thinking advanced by the leftist thugs who are trying to destroy America.
America is Communist Russia or Communist China where the employees own the company.
Budda I like you buddy… but I can tell you China is communist in title only. In reality they are friendly facists.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 24, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, if this wasn’t a (bad) joke of some kine, this has to be the single stupidest political comment I have ever heard. As workers rights collapse all across the western world, you call the US “communist.” If an employer can’t be honest with their employees, how can the negotiations possibly be done in good faith?
by Original Aaron on Jun 25, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Buddah - for the billionth time! Leave your wrongheaded, ignorant political views out of the discussion.
You just make yourself look silly.
Its Possible Givony Has A Source However
I have seen nothing about it from the tweets of
1. ESPN
2. Yahoo
3. Wolstat
4. Smith
5. Stackmack
To me it is just more gossip at this point
Jonas Will Wear #17
stackmack Holly MacKenzie
Valanciunas will wear #17. “It’s my dream come true. I’m so excited. I’m happy to see my jersey, see my team, to see Toronto…It’s amazing.”
6 hours ago
Givony Was The Same Guy Who Said The Raptors Would Draft
Kemba.
I even emailed him and told why he was wrong and then stuck to it even on this blog.
Then he posts a tweet without a source.
He still wants the Raptors to trade the writes to JV for Kemba.
Givony and Kemba.
The guy has zero credibility when it comes to information and predictions.
jv
agreement is now in place (National Post) with JV to play here in 2012/2013
Euros
Originally, BC’s plan was to focus primarily on Euros because the Raptors were struggling keeping their American stars. He may have placed the fact that a player was from Europe ahead of their actual talent level for this reason. Now, the fans have spoken and the lack of success has made many believe that he will be steering away from that original European vibe.
However, he shouldn’t stray from it originally, because the original plan did make sense to most of us upon BC’s hiring, as he began to initiate his Euro infusion. So in the event where there is a player that is not only at, or near (in the same tier), the top of their board, but fills a need and is also European, it just makes sense to take him.
This is a little sad
Consider please everyone, that our team suffers constantly because of where our team is located and the immature view of this from players, media, and rival fans. Does anyone else find it sad that after a few sour incidents so many of us are getting angry, and frankly acting immature, over where this player is located?
More Analysis on the Pick
This from NbaDraft.net – They gave the pick a C+:
The Raptors gambled a bit by going with Jonas Valanciunas at #5. The issue as to whether he can come over right away has been widely reported, but the risk goes beyond that factor. Valanciunas has been playing at a high level in Europe, but it is a mixed record. The Lithuanian Basketball League (LKL) is not a deep league in terms of its talent base. Zalgiris and Valanciunas’ Lietuvos Rytas are the dominating forces of that league, so while Valanciunas played extremely well for an 18-year old, the league is not a great test of his NBA readiness. It is worth noting that he struggled against Zalgiris and then also in the regional VTB United League competition against Eurocup champion Unics or Russian power CSKA. His Euroleague play was especially concerning because he had extremely high foul and turnover rates. Rates of 8.2 fouls per 40 minutes and 3.8 turnover per 40 minutes in Euroleague do not bode well for the NBA. This is where staying abroad might help him. It does nobody any good when a player enters the NBA before he is ready, and it might be a worthy investment for Valanciunas to spend another year developing oversees so that when he joins the Raptors that he can not only get on the court but stay there
If you are worried about this pick, read this...
Looks like the guys down at the RapRepublic agree with Franchise here at the HQ. Informed fans are saying positive things about this pick and what it means to the Raptor Nation.
http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/06/25/talent-passion-and-toughness-arent-defined-by-geography/
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jun 25, 2011 8:51 AM EDT reply actions
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- Dwyane Wade’s hot pink pants: The kind of thing you can get away with when you drop 41
- Lamar Odom to New York? Dwight Howard on the move? For now, it’s all talk
