Sunday Poll - Are the Raptors Looking to Nab Biyombo with a Second Draft Pick?
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 9:45 AM EDT
in NBA Draft
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A few draft odds and ends in addition to the usual poll this Sunday morning...
As of the time of this posting there are about four days and 13 hours left before the NBA draft.
And depending on which mock draft you look at, the Raps are definitely taking Kemba Walker, Jan Vesely, Jonas Valanciunas or Brandon Knight, if he's around, when they pick.
As TSN.com's Tim Chisholm tweeted yesterday,
Its kinda amazing about this draft but usually less than a week out there is some consensus about what will happen. Not this year.
I mean, does anyone feel certain about any pick in this draft? Every team still seems to have 4-5 names attached to them. It's kinda fun.
And I agree completely.
In fact this is the first year since about 2007 where I'm legitimately excited about the draft. The past few I felt have been robbed of much drama by the time the last week rolls around, thanks in part to social media and a pretty clear-cut order in terms of which prospects were ranked higher than others.
Not so much this time around.
So what do we know?
Well aside from Kyrie Irving going one...not a whole lot.
I'd put money on Derrick Williams being the number two pick if Minnesota can't work out a trade, but Utah still seems like a wildcard.
Brandon Knight apparently had a solid workout for the Utah Jazz on Thursday and perhaps the third pick is his to lose.
But Jimmer Fredette's been getting a lot of buzz lately, as high as seventh to the Kings, so will a player it sounds like the Utah Jazz crave be around when they make their second selection at 12?
That's one piece of the lottery puzzle.
Then we have the Cavs, who seem to be deciding between Enes Kanter and Jonas Valanciunas with the fourth pick.
The choices the Jazz and Cavs make will have major repercussions for the Dinos therefore, as the club may have to "settle" for a Kemba Walker or Enes Kanter at five, if indeed Knight and Valanciunas are selected with the third and fourth picks.
I put "settle" in quotes though because I'm starting to change my mind a bit on Kemba, thanks to some recent advanced statistical analysis, and an enlightening chant with Draftexpress.com's Jonathan Givony, which we'll be posting in the next two days.
I'd still prefer Brandon Knight, but let's put it this way; if Bryan Colangelo comes out of this draft with Walker and a second solid first-round pick, I'd be all smiles.
A second?
Well that seems to be the other certainty right now.
Based on recent activity, it sounds like BC is doing everything in his power to acquire a second, first-round pick, possibly even a lottery one, and his target appears to Bismack Biyombo.
While I'm not big on taking a flier on the Congolese big man at five, or Jan Vesely, another player Toronto is getting an additional look at today, if the Raps could grab him just outside the lottery I'd be thrilled. Bismack was at one point slated to be a top lottery pick, but his stock may have fallen thanks to some less than stellar reviews from a recent workout in Europe in front of various NBA front-office types.
In fact, Biyombo did not receive a green room invite, a sign that the NBA is simply not confident that he'll be one of the first 14 players chosen.
Biyombo may be the definition of raw, but he's got physical intangibles that just don't grow on trees, as well as a reputation for having a great work ethic, so swinging for the fences in the mid-first round for such a player would be fine by me.
How do the Raps grab him?
Well that's the tricky thing, although if he does indeed fall out of the lottery, the Wizards, Bobcats and Timberwolves all have second first-round picks at 18, 19 and 20 respectively, that may be available. Minny in particular looks like a nice target as the club is so young right now. But will Biyombo fall that low?
In some ways though this whole process isn't even about Biyombo, but simply the fact that Colangelo is being so aggressive this off-season already. He's done a ton of work pre-draft, and may even be ready to announce a new head coach in the next few days, a lot earlier than many, myself included, expected.
This is what I desperately hoped to see him do in the post-Triano era, and going into next season, lock-out or no lock-out, with two blue chip prospects, some cap space, and a defensive-minded coach, would be a huge step back in the right direction for this franchise, in my books.
On that note then, we move to our regular Sunday poll...
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Am I the only one who thinks Pape Sow whenever people talk about Biyombo?
Always wonder what would have happened to that guy if he didn’t bust up his neck?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 9:52 AM EDT reply actions
Ahh man… Way to ruin my Father’s day morning… I just poured out a little of my coffee (in place of liquor) for a fallen soldier. RIP Pape Sow.
DING DING DING
It’s funny because while I was writing this post I had THE EXACT SAME THOUGHT.
Obviously Biyombo’s physical traits are even better but…I admit I did think “who’s to say this isn’t another Sow” when writing this post…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Fun story, my cousin met pape at a party and he gave her his number. Offered her several tickets that she turned down. I was pretty young at the time and got a kick out of calling him from her phone and hearing him pick up then hanging up
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
This Says It All About ESPN: Toronto worst sports city in North America: ESPN
Toronto worst sports city in North America: ESPN
Jackie Rosen and 680News staff Jun 19, 2011 07:21:27 AM
TORONTO, On. – When it comes to being a sports city, Toronto is in the toilet. ESPN ranked Hogtown as the worst city for pro teams in North America.
Do you remember the last time the Toronto Maple Leafs won the Stanley Cup? Well, if you’re 44 or younger, you’ve never seen a blue and white victory.
While the Canadian Football League’s Argonauts have been left out of this equation, it appears of those teams belonging to the big four – baseball, football, hockey and basketball – Toronto comes out with the worst-average score.
The ninth edition of the ultimate standings rank the Maple Leafs as the worst team in the NHL, and last overall for “bang for your buck” and affordability.
Meanwhile, the Raptors have earned the title of third worst organization in the NBA.
It doesn’t stop there.
The Blue Jays home experience at the Rogers Centre is ranked the fourth worst in baseball, even with the help of slugger Jose Bautista.
The Green Bay Packers were ranked the best franchise in sports.
I have no arguments to dispute any of this...
These are dark days in T dot….
Raptors take a pass on landing Knicks' Mike D'Antoni, opt for defensive-minded Dwane Casey
Mitch Lawrence
Saturday, June 18th 2011, 5:56 PM
The Raptors must really be committed to incorporating defense into their future game plans.
Before deciding on Mavs assistant coach Dwane Casey to take over for Jay Triano, Toronto president Bryan Colangelo talked to Jeff Van Gundy about the post.
If that wasn’t a dead giveaway that the Raptors are going to at least try to change their ways and address the most important end of the court, perhaps just as revealing was whom Colangelo didn’t interview.
Although it was long rumored, he did not reach out to his former coach in Phoenix, Mike D’Antoni, whom the Knicks may have made available for the right compensation.
But with the Raptors hardly putting up any resistance last season, allowing opponents to shoot 48.2% from the field as they won all of 22 games, Colangelo couldn’t afford to take a chance on D’Antoni. On a short leash himself, after last month receiving what was reportedly a two-year extension, Colangelo needed to bring in someone who will try to change the culture
cont on link
Its nice to know that BC is looking defense first. Its a necessary change and a good start.
But will he (or will he be able to) balance that out with some guys who can play offense to?
Maybe I’m just turning into a huge cynic, but why am I picturing a polar opposite team by the end of this season? A team filled with defensive players with no ability to score.
Just hoping he can finally find more than 1 or 2 guys that can actually do both efficiently.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Its Not A Matter of Just Scoring
It is a matter of scoring efficiently, playing defense, rebounding and lurnovers. That is the order that I would rank their importance to winning though I probably could be persuaded to put turnovers ahead of rebounding.
When you shoot a good percentage and don’t turn the ball over you will score more than enough to win if you play above average defense and hold your own on the boards.
When a team does well in those categories they are going to win.
IMO, the key to consistant winning in Basketball is possession. Meaning, the ability to gain possession (rebounding, forcing turnovers, good defense) and the ability to maintane posession (i.e. not turning the ball over). The next thing in terms of priority is what you do with possession, in otherwards offensive efficiency. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but I actually think that finding players with the skillsets required to gain/maintane possession (i.e. great defenders/rebounders) is more challenging than sourcing offensive players.
this is
pretty much along my style of thinking.
getting possession and making efficient use of possesion.
on D, not allowing the opponent to get possession and making them inefficient with their use of possessions.
you do any of those > than your opponent and the majority of the time you win.
Its honestly one reason why I have nothing against the basic box score stats… its just a matter of how someone can (or is willing to) read them. (although it is much more difficult to value them vs. others especially of differing positions)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The basic box score stats tell you – to a certain degree – what happened. Advanced stats tell you how it happened and why.
yes and no
really kind of depends on the advanced stat…
… but don’t forget that any (well 95% of them anyways) statistical information used in an advanced stat. is derived from the box score. The box score can still tell you the same thing with enough experience and a critical eye (lets call that the not looking at just points theory, not that we see any of that around here……………….cough)
So using our favorite man as an example
I don’t need WP or WS or stat X to tell me how good or bad Andrea is when I consistently see:
high minutes, playing C, high point total, a low fg%, lots of shots, low rebounding numbers, low stl/block numbers, medium to high turnover #s, and the opponent(s) having the opposite.
individual advanced stat may or may not improve on the box score in a number of different ways… but the one area where they almost always improve on it is putting everything into a single value to make it much more comparable and easy to use.
When its all said and done the real difference between a box score and an (well most) advanced stats is ease of use, which is still significant.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It goes with the Territory
.
Being the man on a team like the Raptors has its’ downside, as the focus is a lot narrower (for opponents).
Demar’s efg% dropped to .437 for the month of April. High usage was a fact of life on a team that couldn’t shoot 3’s. Demar (in the role of 1st option) dropped his fg%, took more shots (1.0 above AB’s season average), and increased his turn-over numbers. All without any change in the teams’ scoring differential (~ 6 pts).
.
Equating high minutes is a function of the coach (and the few alternatives available). High point totals is a function of few real scorers (on the team). Low fg% as Demar proved in the month of April, is a function of defensive focus. High turn-overs is function of usage – Demar’s jumped (and matched exactly to AB’s total).
.
With a defensive minded coach, who’s not afraid to deliver the correct medicine when it’s needed, roles can become better defined. The right combination of defense and offense will hopefully lead to a more balanced Raptor group, instead of pining our hopes on guys like Wright, Weems, Dorsey, Ajinca, and Johnson (to a smaller degree).
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jun 19, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm in the latter part of your "Persuasion"
- efg%
- defense
- turnovers
- rebounding
Boston proved this particular order can win championships, with their lack of deftness at rebounding not really impacting a championship ring.
Dallas won with 2nd best fg% behind Boston (only 9 games), 1st in efg%, average in turn-overs, and near the bottom in rebounding.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jun 19, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
rebounding
needs to be balanced against # of shots taken.
Just like points scored has less meaning without looking at how many shots were taking, rebounding has less meaning without looking at how many shots were missed (therefore rebounds available)
It shouldn’t be a suprise that 2 of the top fg% teams didn’t accumulate alot of rebounds (less rebounds available). Total shots taken (dependent on # of possessions, turnovers, steals, blocks) would also have an impact aswell. What would be alot more meaningful is their rebound %.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Forget Biyombo
Drafting Biyombo seems to follow the same logic as buying a scratch lottery ticket and hoping you become rich. There are a number of reasons why this guy is slipping (unimpressive workouts, probably older than his listed age, etc).
Why not invest in a proven stock like Kenneth Faried with a later pick? TrueHoop makes a compelling case for Faried as a lottery pick here. And rebounding is one of those skills that translates from college to the pros.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 10:21 AM EDT reply actions
I Agree Except
Biyombo is a lot younger and Biyombo could eventually play Center.
No way Faried will ever play Center and at this point Amir and Ed both need to add at least 20 pounds to play Center. Ed might but I doubt Amir every will.
Thabeet, Yinka Dare, Hoffa, Saer Sene… these guys could all play centre.
Faried compares with DeMarcus Cousins, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shawn Marion, Jerome Kersey and Antonio McDyess, according to ESPN’s stat guys.
There’s no need to make a bonehead draft decision based on the fact that Biyombo might be able to play centre.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d prefer Faried to Biyombo for sure, but if the team can get a second pick and take a crack at someone with his potential, I’m all for it. The question is what do they have to give up to get that pick I suppose?
And really, if Chris Singleton is sitting there, I’d opt for him over Biyombo.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
If the Raps get a second pick I would rather they aim high enough in order to get Leonard. I have been reading up and watching video of him and think he is the kind of player we need. I know that Franchise would ditto that sentiment. It’s wishful thinking because I don’t see us getting a pick in the 7-10 range or having him drop into the mid-teens.
by Assistant GM on Jun 19, 2011 3:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
re: Leonard and second pick draft speculation.
One observation I have from players with SF size who played the college PF/SF position, is that if they couldn’t dribble then, you should draft them expecting that they never become confident handling the ball. This is increased if your talking about an upperclassman. That is one of the larger reasons why I would favor Leonard over Singleton, I think Leonard can improve his dribble. WIth Singleton, I think he just improves his shot and the dribble improves slightly but not to the the point where you ever want him handling the ball.
He Isn't My First or Second Choice
However, you have no idea if it will be a bonehead decision just because he had one bad shooting session in a workout.
Name: Bismack Biyombo Sumba – Age 18?
Height: 6’9.5" (with shoes)
Weight: 240 lbs.
Wingspan: 7’6.16"
Standing Reach: 9’3.42"
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/nene/
According to Chad Ford , Jonas Valanciunas is 7’0 and has 7’4 wingspan with 9’3 standing reach and weights 245. I think that numbers are really impresive, although I dont know if his height is with or without shoes on
http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/valanciunas-measurements-0
I haven’t read anyone writing that Valanciunas is a PF
Yet people think that Biyombo who is younger than Valanciunas has a higher reach, longer wingspan, weighs about the same and is far more athletic than Valanciounas can’t play Center.
Right. These are probably the same people who are love with Kemba. LOL
It goes beyond a bad workout or two. People are making this guy a lottery pick based on measurements (well, he looks like a centre) and one Nike Hoop Summit game. There’s just no data to justify taking this guy over a proven college prospect.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
EuroLeague Data Has to Be Parsed
and then some.
Serge Ibaka
In the ACB, he averaged 7.1 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 1 block in 16 minutes per game.
What data was there from Ibaka’s stint at ACB to determine how good Ibaka was going to be?
By the way. I was in error. Ibaka was not drafted by the Thunder by was actually drafted by the Supersonics before they moved to OkC.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Serge_Ibaka
How about Brandon Jennings?
In the Italian Lega A 2008-09 season, Jennings averaged in 27 games, 5.5 points, 1.6 rebounds, 2.2 assists, and 1.5 steals in 17.0 minutes per game. He shot 35.1 percent from the field and 20.7 percent from 3 point range in Lega A play.14 In 16 Euroleague games, Jennings averaged 7.6 points, 1.6 rebounds, 1.6 assists, and 1.2 steals in 19.6 minutes per game. In the Euroleague he shot 38.7 percent from the field and 26.8 percent from 3 point range.15
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Brandon_Jennings
How many busts will NBA GMs draft while trying to find the “next Ibaka”? I’ll take the over.
I think we’ve seen a decade of failure as teams try to find the next Nowitzki. Think Darko, Bargs and Skita to name a few.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Givony Is A Big Fan of Walker
Walker can’t shoot and will never will be able to shoot. His shooting did not improve during his time at CT so I see no reason to think that it will do anything but get worse in the NBA where he will be playing against much bigger, stronger and faster players.
The line that he only shot so much because he had to means that he has a shooter’s mentality. How many times have we heard Calderon say that he has been told to shoot more yet he doesn’t. He looks to pass first. Walker will always be a Chuck it up brick man.
Shooting is the most important ingredient to winning.
Defense is the second most important ingredient to winning.
Walker in my opinion is not a top ten pick let alone a top five pick.
Bring on Givony’s stats
No Vesely and no Walker if the Raptors want to improve.
Those who think that Walker will be better than Bayless are drinking the Kool-aid by the gallon.
People fall in love with these undersized PGs because of CP3. Well Walker is not CP3 and never will be. Walker is Will Bynum the Second.
Bayless and Knight played only one year in college and Walker played three.
Here are the Points Per Possession comparison among Bayless, Walker and Knight in their last season in college
Bayless 1.57
Walker 1.31
Knight 1.28
Here are their Assists per 36 Minutes in their last season in college
Walker 4.3
Knight 4.2
Bayless 4.0
Bayless in only 21 months older than Walker
Drafting Knight or Vesely would be a huge mistake
JMO
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=41515
Drafting Knight or Vesely would be a huge mistake
Wait…I thought you didn’t want to draft Walker? Or do you want to avoid Knight, Vesely AND Walker?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Good Catch
Thanks
That should be drafting Walker or Vesely would be a big mistake.
Gotcha.
What if Walker fell and you could draft him later via a second pick? Still no go?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess it depends who else is left. I’d take a guy like Singleton over him, for sure.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 20, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I Find It Interesting
that Biyombo has one bad shooting session in a workout and it drops him to out of the Green Room
Yet Walker has three seasons of lousy shooting and gets punked by Jimmer in a workout yet people disregard this and still expect that he could he could be drafted by the Raptors at #5. If the Raptors do make the horrible mistake of drafting him it will only go one more time to prove the old adage.
There’s a sucker born every minute
People forget that Mateen Cleaves won a national title as the starting PG at Michigan State. Well, I haven’t. I sure haven’t forgotten his dismal NBA career.
Cleaves, a three-time Michigan State University captain, led the Spartans to the 2000 national championship, and was named Most Outstanding Player of the Final Four.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mateen_Cleaves
Cleaves was picked 14th overall by the Pistons and here are his career numbers in the NBA
Games – 167
MPG – 11.2
PPG – 3.6
APG – 1.9
FG% – .389
Cleaves actually shot better than Walker did in college and averaged about 50% more Assists Per 36 Minutes than Walker did.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cleavma01.html
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/michigan-state/mateen-cleaves
Biyombo and Ibaka
Both are from the Congo
Ibaka was totally under the radar when the Thunder drafted him.
Biyombo is actually taller, longer and a lot heavier than Ibaka.
If the Raptors can get a player from this draft who turns out to be as good as Ibaka I think most Raptors fans who know anything about Ibaka will be very happy with the Raptors selection.
IMO
Ibaka is better than Amir at this point in their respective careers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ibakase01.html
Interesting take.
I too think Ibaka is better than Amir, simply because of how good he’s been on the defensive side of the ball. The question is, if Biyombo gets selected, what does the team do with the Bargs/Amir/Ed Davis rotation. Not to mention James Johnson, who can play the 4 in various situations, and Reggie Evans, if he’s retained.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
From Doug Smith's blog
Casey? He’s my pick, as I’ve mentioned all along and if he can do defensively for Bargnani what he did for Dirk, they’ll be erecting a statue to him outside the ACC. Not sure he can, but I’d like him to get a chance to try.
I was thoroughly annoyed when I read this.
+1 I'm not sure if Doug Smith is a puppet or an idiot...
Actually, I think he’s probably a bit of both…
100% both
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 19, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
re: Smith and Casey
I agree that is annoying for a few reasons. There has been alot done for Bargnani in terms of personnel brought in to make up for his deficiencies. To even open the door to that Bargnani – Dirk link, as if there’s a scheme that could make them even remotely comparable in performance is beyond disrespectful.
One example of a goal for Casey is continuing the work with relative newcomers Ed Davis and James Johnson, determining if they can grow into larger roles with the team, and challenge them to grow as defenders in the front court. With James Johnson especially, I think he needs more of a taskmaster to kick his butt, and make sure that he’s putting in the work to capitalize on the physical tools he has to work with. Adding a veteran SF that does the kind of things we want him to learn would be an added motivator.
I just threw up in my mouth as I read that.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Doug can’t change his opinion on Bargs until Colangelo officially gives him permission.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Enes Kanter Tweeted A While Ago
eneskanter Enes Kanter For all questions regarding marketing please contact evolution management. Thanks
RFLMAO
https://twitter.com/#!/eneskanter
Dirk and Andrea
If Casey can do with Andrea what he did with Dirk? Hahahahaha….that was funny and it hurt a bit too. How can someone say this kinda stuff. Finals MVP, or inefficient scorer who is the worst rebounding centre in the game today?
If he can get Jose to play defence like J Kidd that might help too. And if James Johnson can match up to Lebron like Marion did and Demar can learn to defend and we get a solid athletic centre like Chandler and if he can then get Demar to turn into Kobe, then he will be a great coach.
Thanks Doug. With comments like his it’s hard to take him seriously has a reporter. I think of his articles more like Raptor brass press releases.
My take;
Andrea could be a more useful player. He could improve. He could play with more urgency on the defensive end. But he will not play at the same level Dirk is playing. He doesn’t shoot nearly as well as Dirk and he has a tenth the passion. Figure it out Dougie, Casey is not a magician and if we start off with a new coach whose mandate is to make Andrea into Dirk, we will be disappointed.
Figure it out Dougie, Casey is not a magician and if we start off with a new coach whose mandate is to make Andrea into Dirk, we will be disappointed.
Amen.
Honestly, if this is the thinking of Colangelo and the rest of the front office – that hiring Casey is going to turn Bargnani into Nowtizki – then nothing is going to change.
You’re making a good move by hiring Casey. Don’t handcuff the guy by making him pander to one of the least efficient, least productive players in the league.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 19, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN Must Think That BC Is One Of The Dumbest GMs In The NBA
The link below will take you the latest Chad Ford Top 100 Prospects and who he thinks will draft them.
Biggest Over Drafted Payers According Chad Ford
Top 20 Picks only starting with the largest negative differential
Worst Three Teams
Team————Player——Player Rank—Draft Rank—-Diff
===========
Charlotte—M. Morris———18—————9————— Minus 9
Houston -N. Vucevic—-20————-14—————-Minus 6
Toronto——Vesely—————-9—————-5—————-Minus 4
Toronto Leaves on the Board
Kanter
Leonard
T. Thompson
Walker
All who Ford says are better but the Raptors will pass on to chose Vesely.
If BC chooses Vesely and leaves Kanter on the board the Raptors have a lot bigger problem then just bad defense.
ESPN
also thinks Toronto is the worst sports city in North America.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jun 19, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
We need that on a Billboard on all the highways that lead into TO
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
I think bc takes b smack not very many elite shot blockers in the the nba lots of of under sized pgs coming of the bench tho Givony alos was ask in an interview who will be the best player in this draft and he said bismack
One of his podcasts right? I think they asked him to guess which players from this draft will be all-stars.
He said Irving and Biyombo. I didn’t take it to mean that Biyombo is a sure thing, just that he has the kind of physical tools that make him capable of that kind of status if everything goes right.
The NBA Is Not A Free Market
A free market is a market in which economic intervention and regulation by the state (NBA) is limited to tax collection, and enforcement of private ownership and contracts.
The NBA is not a free market.
Free markets do not exist when
1. Players contracts are determined not by negotiations between the employer and player but mostly by the employer and a union. (see #2)
2. The employer is negotiating with a union to determine players salaries which are then determined by a CBA between the employer and a union.
3. Players contracts are guaranteed
4. Players contracts have a minimum wage
5. Players contracts have restrictions such a length of contract, salary range
6. Employers can not bid in the open market for rookies
7. Rookie contract limits and amounts are controlled by a CBA
8. Teams can not sign free agents because of a team’s total salary.
9. Teams are practically speaking prevented from trading for certain players due to the team’s total salary and the players’ salaries.
10. A team has very little control over the financial repercussions resulting from releasing a player due to things such as guaranteed contract, cap hold rules etc.
Any time there is a union involved in negotiations there is no free market. A free market only exists when an employee and an employer are able to negotiate at arms length without rules and restrictions set by the a union contract and/or the government which is not the case in the NBA.
The NBA is a controlled market
free markets
don’t exist period.
When true free markets they did exist it became a feudal system.
Its best for 99.9% of the worlds population if truelly free markets don’t exist
(PS. unions are a direct result of capitalism…. they are arguably, part of a free market system)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you give an example of a free market (truly free) that became a feudal society without government interference? Not arguing the point, more curiosity.
one person's free market is another persons despotic experience...
Capitalism really took off in the 17th Century, and coincided with the end of slavery.
Many factors though – but ‘cheaper than slave labor’ has certainly been part of being a free person who lives under despotism.
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
the idea of the free market
was discovered not invented. The concept or “planning” of capitalism is more of an ideology.
There are very few cases in (western) history where one can see how a market runs free of government intervention. One example however is after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was no government and there was no system… it truelly was a free market. What happened however is those who either had means or ambition simply took what they wanted… controlled the land and controlled the people within that land. It would be the inevitable result again if a true free market system existed.. more or less anarchy until a few take control.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 20, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting, not sure I agree that you can call a no market system as a free market system but thank you for at least posting your logic.
no problem
do want to say one thing. There always is a market of some sort… the question is just how advanced and complex is it.
The minute you give your neighboor a chicken in exchange for grain, or help them fix their house and they give you a pie.. you just created a market. In fact you could argue that even without the exchange of any goods or services there is still a market… its just that the market is dictating that it is not profitable enough (or valuable enough) to exchange those goods and services as opposed to using them yourself.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 21, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Free Market = One that goes around removing obstacles to trade. These usualy relate to issues when crossing borders (for instance - as a large obstacle)
NSFS – is right about commodity. You can either exchange a commodity or use it yourself. But not both.
But a commodity’s use value is totally related to its exchange value. Where value is what you (or another person) are willing to pay/sell that commodity for.
Someone could put a gun to your head, but that is simply putting commodities like your life and health into the negotiations.
Money simply exists because we go around exchanging things ALL the time. The gold standard used to work, but it seemed that wasn’t flexible enough to capture all the micro-nuances of exchangeability. Hence we have rigidly controlled currencies that fluctuate…etc…
… and a select few people who can print money as a bollocks way of exchanging it for other peoples chickens and pie…
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
re: Poll Results
Will the Toronto Raptors keep the fifth pick in the upcoming NBA Draft?
They’ll stick at five, but grab a second pick too. 66%
Definitely. They’ll stick at five and that’s all she wrote. 22%
I’m impressed that so many people believe that Colangelo will FOR ONCE secure a second first round pick.
I also voted that way, since the price to obtain a pick in the low lottery to middle first round is probably much lower then it has ever been.
Any speculation on what he’d be willing to trade in return?
Kanter or Jonas
I would love to get Kanter at 5.
1.Gives us a talented prospect who will have a chance to prove he can play the 5 in the NBA
2. makes it easier to trade AB
If he’s available we can’t pass him up at the 5 spot.
Jonas is a bit more complicated with his buyout but he would also be a solid choice, especially if they can get him on the court in the next season or two.
Byombo would be a good choice if we ended up with Knight and we acquire another pick.
We need a centre people. How could we draft Walker or Vesley over Kanter or Jonas?
As much as people beat up on Jose, he was probably our MVP last season and he is our best offensive player. So why the panic? Why bring in an overrated, undersized PG who just had the best year he will ever have in basketball? The Mateen Cleaves comparison is a lot more likely than the Iverson ones.
A solid rookie centre (Kanter or Jonas)
Ed and Amir
JJ and Linas
Demar and Barbosa
Jose and Bayless
If we draft Kanter, AB will have to go. Now.
If we draft Jonas we may have to wait another year to get him, which may convince BC to keep AB for one more year. The problem is that ABs stock is at an all time high, save for his incoming draft night. He scored 21 pts a game, can shoot the three and plays the 5, a tough spot for GMs to fill. Unless they feed him the ball like they did all year he will never score 21 pts per again. The one asset we have right now to convince others of his value is his points per game. We paid a huge price to get him that average. Let’s use it to our advantage and trade him well we can still get something in return.
Andrea for Rudy Gay? Please. Pretty please with sugar on top?
I agree that trading Bargnani sooner rather then later is very important. Any GM trading for him would be valuing him for perceived upside, and what they could do with him on the roster.
I hope Colangelo tries to get a large chunk of his off-season goals accomplished during the draft period. After the lockout ends, he’s then free to concentrate on adding free agents and finding the right place for Bargnani.
I Agree Except
I would prefer Igoudala over Gay because IMO Igoudala is the better defender of the two but I wouldn’t be unhappy if the Raptors could dump Bargnani and wind up with Gay.
Philly needs a Center and is looking for one more than Memphis needs a center. Bargnani could start in Philly but no way he starts ahead of Gasol or Randolph with the Grizz.
I agree in part
but Iggy has a few years on Gay does he not? Salary on Iggy is nicer though
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 19, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Vesley, Kanter, Jonas
How come none of the top four picks are seriously considering taking Walker or Vesley? How come they are all considering Kanter and some Jonas?
Don’t mess this up BC by over thinking it and drafting an athletic freak who can’t dribble or shoot or a point guard that is a volume shooter, short and shows no signs of his skill set improving.
If Knight is there, we can take him. Other than him, Irving is the only guard we could use the fifth pick on.
If The Raptors Do Take Knight
that will work if Barbosa doesn’t return. However, if Barbosa returns the Raptors are stuck paying him over $7 million next season. Do you play Knight ahead of him? I can not see Knight playing ahead of Calderon or Bayless. Bayless did nothing in his 24 or so starts last season to give reason to think that Knight would move ahead of him on the depth chart at PG.
I hope BC knows what Barbosa is going to do before he even seriously considers drafting Knight.
As far as the front court goes you have only three really viable Bigs on the roster if you consider Bargnani viable. The Raptors need a fourth Big.
Leonard might be able to beat out James Johnson at SF. However I don’t see Knight beating out any of the current Guards if Barbosa returns.
Maybe BC can make some trades on draft day that will lend help clear this mess up.
Bayless did nothing in his 24 or so starts last season to give reason to think that Knight would move ahead of him on the depth chart at PG.
Agreed, as a starter Bayless had 18 points 7 assists and 4 rebounds per game…
Compare to Brandon Jennings : 16.5 pts 5 assists and 4 rebounds while playing the same minutes…
Can’t see an “un-hyped” rookie doing better any time soon…
"the Truth"
Buddah, still take Knight if he's there
Knight is very young. You are drafting him for potential. It looks like he may develop into an allstar poing guard, maybe.
If by drafting Knight we need to move Barbosa, so be it. Jose would be a great mentor to Knight, and this might be able to work.
Only we would need to get back a big for Barbosa.
If Kanter and or Jonas are there as well at the five, take one of them over Knight, but it’s hard to give up on the upside of a guy like Knight for a guy like Leonard, that many people had going in the mid teens a few months ago. I love the defence he brings, but in the draft we need to take a bit more risk to get a bit more of a reward in this situation.
We need to gamble a little bit and it needs to pay off.
Are They This Stupid?
NBA TV pre-draft discussion. They say the Raptors need a Center and SF but should take Kemba Walker anyway. Nothing mentioned about Bayless or Calderon.
Idiots
Bayless or Walker
At this point right now I would take Bayless, so why are we looking at drafting a guy that we already have a taller version of on our roster? We already have a Kemba type player in Bayless.
Please, please let Jonas or Kanter fall to 5. One of those 2 has to be there and we have to take one of those two; preferably Kanter because of Jonas’ buyout. All this talk of Walker is silly. Leonard would be ahead of Walker as well, but a chance to draft a top centre is too good to pass on. Knight would be a tougher choice, but I’d still take him and BC already said Knight was very high on our list, so if he’s still there he will be the pick.
All we really need is for Utah to do what is expected and take Knight. But either way, one of those five players will be available, and we should take whichever one is left unless we can show great reasons not to. Irving, WIlliams, Knight, Jonas and Kanter. Kanter, Williams and Irving are contending for the first pick, so if any of those three are left when we pick it’s a done deal.
Jonas seems to fit exactly what we need and may be such a rare find he is worth gambling on.
Knight is young, and will be a project that may yield great results. He shoots well, passes well and has a high basketball IQ. He is also quick and big enough to play the 1. So all we need is for him to develop into a leader. At his extremely young age, I think that is a bet worth taking, especially considering his young age.
Walker is a leader, but can’t shoot well, is likely too small to play the 1 effectively, and he is older. I like Knight’s chances of developing his game a lot more than Kemba’s.
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