The HQ Round Table Part II - MVP's, LVP's and STUB of the Year
Part two of the HQ end-of-the-year round table where we get into most improved, most valuable, Mr. Bargnani, and Luke Harangody...
Yesterday we kicked off the first part of our end of season round table and without further ado, let's move to round two...
3. Franchise: I'll add a low point for me being the consistent starting of Andrea Bargnani and Linas Kleiza together despite a mountain of both statistical and anecdotal evidence that proved it wasn't working. As a high, the season-end tank-fest that saw Toronto somehow jump from 5th to 3rd in terms of lottery chances.
So if those were the overall highs and lows, let's give out a few individual awards.
Team MVP and LVP? Most improved? Least improved? And how about Stub of the year?
Sasha: Team MVP- Jose Calderon
This past offseason we were one Michael Jordan drunk-lapse away from dealing Jose Calderon to the Charlotte Bobcats in a deal that would have landed us Tyson Chandler and Boris Diaw. Charles Oakley must have woken MJ up the next morning and reminded him that he had made such a stupid trade, because that is the only explanation I can think of as to why Oak was given a role as an assistant coach on the Bobcats. I doubt he does much coaching, his role is to simply make sure MJ doesn't do something ridiculous like trade Gerald Wallace for Joel Przybilla and some picks. But all jokes aside, credit to Jose as he came into camp with a point to prove. In a season that saw many fluctuations and changes with the team, Jose was a rock of consistency at the PG position. Jarret Jack being dealt to New Orleans only increased his responsibiltiy, and he has certainly increased his value this year.
Team LVP- Linas Kleiza
The Toronto Raptors have coveted Kleiza for quite some time and they finally decided to make a move and sign him this past offseason. Kleiza became a starter at the Small Forward position and decided to show us exactly why we shouldn't have signed him. For a guy that was lauded for his toughness, he didn't seem to bring move grit to the table and was often seen shooting ill-advised 3's early in the shot clock or tough fadeaway jumpers with 7 footers guarding him. His injury was a blessing in disguise and it was hopefully part of the reason we decided to acquire James Johnson. Kleiza's role on next year's team looks pretty undecided at the moment. Is he a starter? a 6th man? Time will tell, but 2010-11 was one to forget for the Lithuanian.
Stub of the Year- Luke Harangody
There were many nominees for this year's Stub of the Year. This question was the toughest one to decide and I couldn't have done it without all of the Stubs that decided to make it rain on our D. As a reminder, STUB stands for "Scrub that plays like a Star." My pick is Luke Harangody for a variety of reasons. First, his last name is hilarious. If that doesn't make you laugh than I don't know what will. Secondly and perhaps more importantly, the manner in which he picked apart our team. He dropped his points in a limited amount of time and was seen fist pumping and chest-bumping with KG, Rondo, Big Baby and the rest of the Celtics. It looks like Harangody's Stub night will be his career highlight and that is why he gets my vote!
Most Improved Player: Jerryd Bayless
Bayless came to Toronto with a chip on his shoulder after being deemed surplus to requirements in Portland and New Orleans. The former lottery pick was a college star and he was expected to become an even better pro. Until Jose Calderon was shut down for the remained of the season he had teased us with his potential in games against Oklahoma City and Dallas, but fluffed his lines against weaker teams. Once he became the starting Point Guard he really began to play much better. It has become well-known that he has better nights when he is starting and his late-season surge has seen some fans call for him to begin next season as the starter. It all depends on what management thinks but from when he arrived from New Orleans up until now, Jerryd Bayless has been the team's Most Improved Player.
Least Improved Player: Sonny Weems
The play of Sonny Weems was a big surprise to Toronto Raptors fans last season. Towards the tail-end of the campaign he dislodged DeMar DeRozan from the starting lineup and played very well. It even prompted some writers to argue that Weems' game was far more polished than DeRozan's and that he was going to be a better player going forward. This season he began on the bench but was presented with an opportunity to stake a claim for the starting Small Forward spot after Linas Kleiza went down with a long-term injury. Instead of seizing the opportunity, Weems showed us that he didn't really work hard in the offseason to become a better player, and that when his jump shot isn't falling he can't really do anything else very well. For someone who should wake up every morning and thank God that he is in the NBA this may seem a bit harsh but after what he showed us last season, fans were expecting more. I still think that he has a place on this team going forward but he gets my pick for LIP of the Toronto Raptors 2010-11 season.
D Stance: Team MVP - Amir Johnson
From a productivity and leadership standpoint, Johnson stood out as the most valuable player. He finished second on the team in Wins Produced behind Jose Calderon while often times playing through a painful ankle injury. Anyone who has played ball on a bum ankle can attest to the fact that it's not the best feeling in the world. But the message it sends to younger players about toughness and professionalism is invaluable. It would've been very easy to shut it down during what was by all accounts a lost season. Johnson didn't.
Team LVP - Andrea Bargnani
If you want to put a number on it -- Wins Produced certainly does -- Bargnani cost this team at least half a dozen wins and was the least productive player in the entire league. If that doesn't qualify for you for Team LVP, I'm not sure what does. He's been described as a borderline efficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table. But even if you don't subscribe to Wins Produced or advanced metrics of any kind, the anecdotal evidence that Bargnani hurt this team is abundant (just watch him play defense or listen to some of the veiled shots taken by his teammates during their exit interviews). Despite being seven-feet tall, he went the entire month of February without blocking a shot. As a bonus, Bargs also missed a handful of games because he apparently possesses the immune system of a pre-schooler.
Most Improved - Jerryd Bayless
After Jose Calderon shut it down, a late season flurry by Bayless prompted some fans to opine that he had emerged as a key part of this team going forward. There was even some premature talk that Bayless could be the full-time starting point guard and a high lottery pick like Kemba Walker could actually serve as his backup next season. I won't go quite so far as to anoint Bayless the 2011-12 starter, but I won't feel as bad if Leandro Barbosa declines his player option or is dealt at the trade deadline next season. The bottom line is Bayless showed tremendous improvement after joining the Raptors and Arturo Galletti's analysis backs that up.
Least Improved - Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan (tie)
On first glance, you look at their respective scoring average increases and assume both Bargnani and DeRozan improved this season... at least that's the bill of goods the Raptors organization and broadcast crew would sell you. The fact of the matter is neither Bargnani or DeRozan improved this year, if you consider things like usage and efficiency (which, of course, are made-up stats created solely to discredit Bargs). Both players actually regressed slightly this season. I've already detailed some of Bargnani's shortcomings in the case for Team LVP. DeRozan further distinguised himself in the Least Improved category by watching his three-point percentage drop below 10%.
Stub of the Year - Luke Harangody
You might as well rename this the Luke Harangody Award. Harangody reached double figures in rebounding twice during the 2010-11 regular season: once as a member of the Boston Celtics and later in the season as a member of the Cleveland Cavaliers. The common thread of both games? The opponent was the Raptors and their league-worst defense. Harangody joined a murderer's row of 'stubs' that included Omer Asik, Taj Gibson, Hilton Armstrong, Eddie House and Jamaal Magloire to name a few. It seemed like every time the Raptors ran out on the court, they would get lit up by an end-of-the-bench type from the opposing squad.
The good news is that the Phoenix Suns managed to go from having a defense that was even worse than the Raptors to a middle-of-the-pack defensive team thanks to the aquisition of a real centre, Marcin Gortat. Let's hope Bryan Colangelo has been paying attention to his former squad and acts accordingly this offseason.
Howland: Team MVP- Amir Johnson
Remember when Ron Artest shaved "Tru Warrior" into the back of his head trying to advertise his new record label (or something of that sort - shows how much I cared) - well a "True Warrior" is the name I would give to Amir. Johnson showed an incredible amount of heart and grit this season fighting through countless nagging injuries and bringing quality effort to the floor every night. Over the course of the season he was less and less foul hungry and has established himself as a fine young player and one the Raps will have around for a long time.
Team LVP- Linas Kleiza
Wow - talk about buyer's remorse at this point in time. Kleiza was unable to build on the successes he had at the international level when he joined the Raps and before he could turn it around (if he ever would have who knows) he was out for the year. Kleiza didn't show a lot of the qualities that fans were expecting - hard nosed, physical, versatile scorer and in some ways reminded me of Hedo Turkoglu - just a bad fit. It's probably too early to give up on Kleiza and in reality he should be coming off the pine - I can still see him being productive in a more limited capacity but only time will tell. This season however was a complete fail.
Stub of the Year- How can you pick when there were so many?
Most Improved Player: DeMar DeRozan
I understand that DeMar still has a long way to go both in terms of defence and becoming more efficient on the offensive end, but this was a season where he took a step in the right direction. He looked more confident, did a nice job attacking the rim and looks like a completely different player than the one Franchise and I watched in Summer League prior to his rookie season. It's been reported countless times that he is a gym rat and this is exactly the kind of player you want on your team. When your soon to be best player is also your hardest working that is the start of something good. A ways to go? You bet. A solid sophomore season? Definitely.
Least Improved Player: Andrea Bargnani
Let's see - what area of his game improved? Defense - No. Rebounding - No. Offense - No. Sure he scored more this year but that's inevitable when you take more shots. In a season where Andrea could have established himself and the focal point of this team he failed to take advantage of the opportunity. Have we reached the top of the bell curve here? Is there room for him to improve? Can he go to the next level? You would have thought and hoped so, but this season left much to be desired. His inability to take the next step have people wondering if he is worth keeping around on a 22 win team. Enough said.
Vicious D: Team MVP - Reggie Evans
By now, it should be no surprise to anyone that I picked Reggie Evans. Best rebounder on the team, the crowd favourite, and the defensive glue, Reggie Evans had a presence which actively made the team play better. When he went down with the injury, the Raptors had their heart torn out and just couldn't figure out ways to do the dirty work that's necessary in winning NBA teams. And on a team that has few leaders, few players over the page of 30, and few players who have gone to the playoffs, Reggie Evans was a person who could speak towards
Team LVP - Sonny Weems
Linas Kleiza and Andrea Bargnani are going to be the biggest rods of criticism, but in my opinion, Sonny Weems was a person who completely left his game over the summer. For whatever reason, when the Raptors needed something extra from Weems, he failed to produce. You could say that it may be a limit of his talent, but his lack of attention for what the Raptors needed from the SF position is what is largely responsible for the Raptors going out and getting James Johnson late in the year. Whereas Kleiza was seemly hurt for a while, and Julian Wright proved to be at least aggressive on defense, Weems provided very little value for the team.
When you're given multiple chances and can't produce even though you've been largely healthy, what more is there to say.
Most Improved - Amir Johnson
Highest career Free Throw percentage. Being there when the Raptors needed him. Becoming a hidden leader on the Raptors. There were many eyebrows raised with the contract that was given Amir Johnson, but I've been happy with it. He's scaled his stats nicely, has tried to become better at the increased responsibility, and he's a young PF/Center.
Oh and he plays through injuries.
Least Improved - Andrea Bargnani\
AB defenders look at him and talk about his points. You'll point to his production offensively. But to me, it's always been about efficiency, and Bargnani had one of his worst years in ages. Toss in about HALF as many blocks, and 150 FEWER rebounds, and it's just been all ugly. The question at the end of last season was whether Andrea Bargnani could pull this team without Chris Bosh, and I think we all have a resounding answer.
Stub of the Year - Too Many to Mention
On any given night, if your team is playing the Raptors, look for a career night from your scrubs.
Or I'll just say Luke Harangody
4. Franchise: I'd take Evans too as my MPV, Kleiza as LVP, no one for most improved and everyone on the team as least improved. Seriously, was there another team in the league who displayed as little progress this year as Toronto. Maybe Milwaukee, but the Bucks had the worst string of injuries in the league and at least they played D. Last season marked the team's second straight bottom of the league finish in defensive efficiency.
For the next series of questions though, let's look into the future a bit here.
Give me your best guess on a) if you feel there will be a season next year, and if there is one, will Bryan Colangelo and Jay Triano be back with the Raptors.
Howland: Incredibly difficult question. No-one knows what goes on behind closed doors. Continuity is something that this team has not had...well....ever. I have definitely waffled on the issue but as I write this I can't help but wonder if continuity shouldn't be valued more than everything else. It's one of the few things the leagues successful teams have in common. In some ways I feel like Colangelo has learned from his mistakes and realizes that Euro-ball just doesn't cut it in the NBA. It was an experiment and has failed. The question is can he build a successful team on more "traditional" grounds. Reality is if the team hired a no-name GM it would be that much harder to get free-agents to come to Toronto.
In regards to coaching I am not against keeping Triano either. The only time a coach should be fired is when (a) the players don't listen to him (see Detroit) or (b) he is not getting enough from the talent that has been put as his disposal. Well the players do seem to respect Triano and frankly the players at his disposal were never going to produce a playoff calibre team - let alone a 30 win team. I am for letting him continue to grow with the young guys until one of (a) or (b) happens above. Until that time let's play it out. A new GM and coach are not going to suddenly make the Raptors the next dynasty.
Vicious D: I'm thinking shortened season.
Which, in my opinion, helps out in the decision for both Colangelo and Triano. I've been fairly critical of Colangelo and pretty supportive of Triano, but with the lockout possibly coming and all the problems that may occur, I think both need to be retained. A two year contract for Colangelo allows him some room to do a little more work towards a rebuild, and I think the Raptors need stability in upper management to make the trades and other decisions they need to.
I mean, can you imagine, Bryan Colangelo goes, MLSE looks for another GM, and basically, the Raptors have no one at the helm during a very confusing off season?
I'd also give Jay Triano a two year contract because I believe that it'll be at least that long before the Raptors are relevant again. A cheap development-oriented coach is what the doctor ordered, and Triano is definitely that.
D-Stance: There will be a 2011-12 season. However, questions remain around what form it takes. Will a lockout drag into training camp? Will they lose a couple of months of the season like they did during Vince Carter's rookie year? You'd like to think that the NBA will avoid a lockout because of the strong leadership of David Stern... but then you remember he's same guy who recently appointed Clay Bennett as head of the Sacramento Kings' relocation committee. Apparently, Stern and LeBron James employ the same public relations team.
As far as Colangelo and Triano are concerned, I'm resigned to the fact that both will return. Triano appears to be a poor choice on the surface - but how much of that had to do with the instructions he received from the front office? He should at least get the benefit of the doubt and have his option picked up. Colangelo said some things in his recent press conference to make you believe he's turned over a new leaf. However, until he starts making decisions that appear to be influenced by more than scoring average, I remain skeptical about his ability to build a young team into a contender similar to what Sam Presti has done in Oklahoma City.
Sasha: I'm nowhere near an expert on CBA's and players associations so this is a hard one to answer. But I am confident that there will be a 2011-12 season and that it is just a matter of when or how. The NFL seems to be headed to a lockout but I think under David Stern the same won't happen for the NBA.
One gets the feeling that Colangelo and Triano come as a packaged deal for the club right now - meaning you can't have one without the other. Marc Stein of ESPN reported yesterday that the Raptors were considering putting Wayne Embry in charge of the team in the interim, which would mean that he would oversee the draft. Fans have a fond image of Embry, as he was able to ship Jalen Rose to New York a few seasons ago and basically gift BC the cap space we used up that summer. What people don't seem to remember is that one of the draft picks that Embry dealt could have landed us Rajon Rondo or Paul Milsap. That being said, I feel like Colangelo has finally realized that the Andrea Bargnani experiment isn't going as planned. Continuity is a valuable thing to have instilled in a franchise and when one looks at the GM's that are out of jobs at the moment you seem to get the feeling that BC is sticking around. Jay Triano will probably stick around as well. This team is a young team that probably won't make some noise for at least another season or two, and that would be the appropriate time to bring in a more seasoned coach. That is unless Rick Adelman can somehow be convinced to coach this team...(pipedream...)
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OMG!! What a bunch of haters!!!
Still with the Bargnarni bashing, are you? Seriously you guys do not know a good thing when you have it. Let me remind you that Andrea was the Raptors’ most consistent scorer. And WTF? U give Amir Johnson the team MVP— a guy that only averaged 9.5ppg and 6.5rpg? As for Linus Kleiza, you forget that the guy was injured and that he averaged like 17ppg when he started the season. U guys call urselves Raptors experts? Sheesh, I know more about the Raptors and I don’t get a fraction of the acess that you guys get.
by Jeffrey Thompson on May 3, 2011 9:25 AM EDT reply actions
your bandwagon
is quickly emptying.
Time to loose the dead weight that is Bargnani.
I want to go through your info and point out the deceiving information and inaccuracies, but its pointless as its all been said and done a thousand times.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 3, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
lol that was funny Jeffrey, good morning laugh.
Assuming you were joking, if not then I won’t waste my time and suggest that you actually try to play a game of basketball, instead of “21” with your little sister.
i am just saying.
i come here to this site for a long time as i feel it is the best raptors blog out there and i thank you for that. but what bothers me and i am sure i am not the only one in here are the constant, never ending negativity on Barganani. but it is a blogt and everyone has their own opinion. i am just curious if you guys just feel better bashing bargnani or is it just a bash bargnani wagon sort of thing that most of you guys are into? i am far from a bargnani fan but the constant negativity just makes this site have less class.
I'll try to exlain it one more time
The “bashing” is negative critism towards a player that receives the most playing time and usage, but does not show much improvement (actually regression) in most facets.
Yes he scores more, but that’s about it.
This also stems from the fact that he is setting a terrible example for a club that is trying to promote “accountibility” and “team defense”, filled with young impressionable players.
To hear coaches talk out of both sides of their mouths about this, is also frustrating.
The reason that this point is stressed so much, is that it is the most obvious issue with this team.
If you would like to read about Reggie Evans eating candies, or what Linus does on a Saturday night, you would probably be best served reading another blog.
I will admit that some of these issues are not Barg’s fault, but frankly it’s not my fault, nor the fault of this website.
not trying to be insulting here
but why do people expect others to just stop talking about something that is having a negative impact. Not talking about it doesn’t make it go away. You could talk about all of Bargnani’s positives night and day, but that doesn’t make him a better rebound or change his inability to defend.
Simple fact is (as PNUTZ pointed out), he see’s the most playing time and usage. Yet he has gotten worse as a player (not even maintained the same pace.. gotten worse). He has been treated for this season as if he is a franchise player. If he was treated like Bayless, or Alabi, or J.Wright, Dorsey or even Jose, you would not see nearly as much discussion about him. But he’s not. (Thats not even getting into his pay eating into 1/6th of the raps payroll.. for potential 4 more years… for negative productivity).
I can also guarantee this, if Demar plays the same as he is now 3 years from now, he’ll be getting the same treatment. The reason? People here are, generally, fans of the team and want to see whats best for the team, and not any one individual player.
You can go to any other Raps related website/blog, and you will see the majority of discussion will be pointed directly at Bargnani. Its is not limited to the HQ.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 3, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Andrres48
Thanks for the props on the site. Last few weeks have been “Bargnani-free” and I expect the bulk of the summer to be too. While I’ve made my position clear on him, I too tire of the same old topics, whether it’s Bargs, Triano, BC, etc, etc, so we’ll constantly be looking at new things over the next few months. (Or maybe more…yikes…if there’s a work stoppage.)
Unfortunately though, with the year-in-review style piece we’re doing right now, some discussion of Bargs considering his centrality to the team last year, was inevitable.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
i won't argue..
i know all of your points and believe me i have never thought of him as a franchise player. it just seems redundant and tiring. anyways like i said i have always enjoyed your posts. as raptors and as a basketball fan thank you.
Can I put it another way?
How can a Raptors’ centred blog have any credibility if it doesn’t discuss the fact that the team it covers employs the player that has been listed as the LEAST productive player in the league by multiple metrics. Especially if that team, to this point at least, has been featured prominantly in the offense and not been subject to any accountability. Is that the type of blog you would like to read? If so I can suggest the following:
http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/
www.raptors.com
I’m trying not to be rude, but maybe you would find what you’re looking for there… I for one come to the HQ for their willingness to address and objectively criticise what is wrong with this team…
Variety is the spice of life. Lack of variety was the problem this season, both with the Raptors(too much Bargnani) and with this blog (too much Bargnani). Discussion is one thing, but beating a point to death is quite another. Why would someone bother reading this site or its comments if they are always the same?
I think you nailed it.
The Raptors were too much Bargnani, so inevitably, the reporting and discourse of the Raptors would end up being too much Bargnani. Regarding beating a point to death, I think if we were all honest with ourselves and faced reality there would be little to know discussion about Bargnani. But it’s those that claim Bargnani is unjustly criticised and develop irrational excuses for him that drive the discussion down the Bargnani path. I mean, if anyone took an objective look at his play and statistics, there is nothing to talk about. He’s a terrible basketball player. End of conversation…
No one would be happier than I not to have to talk about Bargnani, trust me. If there is any justice in this cruel world, he will be wearing a different uniform when the Raptors next play basketball and we can all put this dark chapter behind us.
If we didnt have Bargnani to talk about we might notice how terrible the rest of the team is. I mean people are saying that Amir Johnson’s contract wasn’t nearly as terrible as it is. Thank you Bargnani for skewering our view points to a place where mediocre talent can get overpaid produce to their contract and we give them the MVP.
To steal once again from the Sports guy – Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bargnani Era.
DeRozan further distinguised himself in the Least Improved category by watching his three-point percentage drop below 10%.
What’s worse, a guy who seldom takes 3pters (52 for the season) but misses horribly or a guy who jacks them up but at a below average rate?
To my mind, DD knows he doesn’t have 3pt range yet, so he didn’t shoot many of them. This makes him a smart player, which is encouraging for me because I think he will work on this weakness next year. What’s promising is how much better his shooting was last season and it seem to improve during the season. He’s now at the point of being fairly reliable at the long 2 so adding a few extra feet of range should be possible.
I don’t see DD as being a “dude” because I don’t think he has the trajectory or the personality to be that way, but he can be a very solid tier 2 guy.
Demar is still missing something very important
aggression.
Yes he added a jumpshot and isn’t afraid to shoot it. Thats great. Yes he would go to the rim and try to draw fouls. Thats great.
But….. he needs to dunk on guys. Yes he may get an offensive foul or his shot blocked… but players WILL start getting out of his way if they know he is coming through. Run into guys and run over them. Screw the and-1, just jump into guys. Get up on people on D. Fight for that rebound. He has the same problems that alot of guys on the team do… just a complete lack of fight in them. I don’t know if this organization is telling people to avoid contact, or just attracting players that do…. but someone has to teach these guys that the difference between players and good players is a willingness to both give and take contact.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 3, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: aggression
I’m not disagreeing with you. He really does need to assert his dominance. I’m not really sure he has it in him to have that kind of swagger. It’s what will prevent him from being a tier 1 player, IMHO.
He can still be a really good second banana though, and that is still valuable.
I think it may be a question of physical maturity.
He needs to get a bit stronger, which will in turn help his confidence and hopefully his aggressiveness in turn. I hope…
agree
Demar drives to the basket alot. His problem was that the slightest bump sends him reeling. He’s not strong enough to finish through contact with is typically a problem with younger players. As he gets stronger, I suspect that will change. At the very least, he should be able to draw more fouls.
By all accounts, the guy works hard, so there’s no reason to believe that he won’t add muscle this offseason.
At 10%, 52 is way too many. 10 would be about right. He needs to improve that shot – because as we saw this year, there will be times at the end of the clock where he will HAVE to take a 3.
by dhackett1565 on May 3, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s less than 1 a game and many times he was left with the ball with 3 or less seconds on the clock can’t blame him for being the bailout option.
That’s my point – that number is unavoidable as a 2-guard, and as such he needs to improve his percentage to at least a Wade-ish 25-30%. At 0.63 3PA per game, an improvement from 10% to a respectable 35% would mean an additional 0.5 points per game, not including his ability to take more 3 pointers and open up the rest of his game.
But my point is
How can DD be least improved if a small part of his game degraded, while many other parts improved? He was much better shooting jumpers and free-throws, his numbers improved if you go WS/WOW (from a – player to a 0 (still not good but an improvement nevertheless)), PER was up, etc.
I’m not saying he’s a great player, but I am saying he improved in enough areas to make labeling him the least improved player on this team illogical.
I do agree that he needs to develop a legitimate 3pt hshot. He didn’t have it in 2011 and he knew it. I saw him many times decline the 3pter to get a few feet closer to where he felt he could hit.
His advanced stat changes from last year to this year:
MPG: +13.2
PER: +1.9
TS%: -2.4
eFG%: -3.3
ORB%: -1.8
DRB%: -0.7
AST%: +3.7
STL%: +0.2
BLK%: even
TOV%: +0.4
USG%: +5
So, he was used more, passed more, rebounded less, shot worse, and everything else was about even. And his shooting getting worse was by no means just his 3 point shooting – his eFG% and TS% show that above, and his overall 2FG% went from 50.6% to 48.5%. Sure, his FT% improved (by 5%), and he increased his free throw attempts by 21% (when you consider his increased PT), but when you consider that his USG% increased by more than that (28%), he actually went to the line less per trip used than last year – which is a terrible waste of his new-found abilities at the FT line.
I don’t necessarily agree with the suggestion he is the LIP (Weems wins by just edging out Bargnani, if you look at his year-over-year stats), but there is definitely an argument there.
DeRozan year-over-year
One reason that DeRozan’s numbers this year don’t look that great compared to last year is that he was asked to do more this year. Last year, he restricted his shot attempts to ones that he was sure he would make while this year his approach was more “experimental”. Ideally, he will take his experience this season and use it to learn what he can and can’t do on the court and which shots he should and should not be taking. His 3-point shooting absolutely has to improve since sometimes there will be situations where he can’t avoid taking a 3-pointer. As for his 2-pt shooting, ideally that will improve also by taking this season’s accumulated experience and using it to refine his shot selection going forward. Hopefully, he has the basketball smarts to make that happen.
I realize I am making an argument based very much on hand-waving with no solid stats to back it up. My argument is that while DeRozan may have not “improved” a lot this year, hopefully, he has “learned” a lot and thus will improve in the off-season and next year based on that learning.
I agree to an extent, but by that reasoning, we can write off most of the statistical evidence that Bargnani had a bad season as well.
Anyway, still have to say that Derozan didn’t improve nearly as much as I had hoped this year.
I don’t think that reasoning applies to the same degree with Bargnani because he has not shown as much interest in analyzing and improving his game as DeRozan.
Also, Derozan is in his second year and didnt take a massive nose dive the way a lot of sophmore players do. Of course you can also say his lack of massive improvement could be an alarm bell as well as he was the secondary option on this team and should have been more efficient.
Bargnani on the other hand is not in his second year and for a player in his 5th year to regress across the board the way he has is a major warning sound. Of course I think a lot of people felt that would be the case as he had shown no signs last year that he could carry the load when Bosh was out. But why bring facts into this.
Agreed
While statistically it’s obvious that DeRozan didn’t improve significantly in many key areas, anecdotally he at least inspired some more confidence that he has the ability to move in the right direction, whereas Weems declined significantly as did Bargnani.
Stub of the year
gotta be Harangody. Not only because it came out of no where, but he’s the kinda guy fans can always get behind (seriously tell me he doesn’t remind you of Matt Bonner).
MVP – I’m almost thinking a Jose – Amir tie. Those two are attached at the hip in alot of ways.
LVP – guy who had the absolute least value to the team? Alabi. (cutting Bargnani a break here)
MIP – tough… we knew what Amir could do with more minutes. Demar did what he does with more touches (although in fairness to him he added that jumper). Bargnani regressed. Ed Davis is a rookie. Bayless showed some signs at the end, but its such a small sample at a time that didn’t matter. Weems blah. Dorsey/JJ/Wright didn’t get enough burn. I’m gonna say Reggie…. why? He learned to not shoot and stay in control.
LIP – to obvious.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 3, 2011 10:04 AM EDT reply actions
My MVP is Reggie. Just look at the Raps record with and without him.
by dhackett1565 on May 3, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
don't think i'd have trouble
agreeing with that.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 3, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree
You don’t even need to look at the record. The Raptors were visibly more interested in playing defense when Reggie was on the floor.
I’m not saying that Reggie is a good player, because he isn’t. What he does provide is attitude and a willingness to do anything on defense to get the stop. Amir Johnson is the better defender, but he’s not quite old enough to take on the leadership role despite his years in the league.
I was also impressed with how Reggie has transformed his game. What really held him back was his tendency to get an offensive rebound and immediately try to score. He didn’t do that this year. instead, he looked to pass the rebound to a teammate.
It Seems To Me That
Bargnani lover boys are the biggest Amir haters and vice versa?
No MVP for me on the 2010-11 team unless you want to give it to Bargnani for his negative Wins Produced which helped more than anything in giving the Raptors the third most ping pong balls.
If Bargnani’s ineptitude leads the Raptors to getting Irving or Williams then at least he will have done one thing right this season. Good point Buddahfan! ;)
Actually Budda
I’m a fan of Amir …. just like I’m a fan of Bargs … and Demar, and JJ, and Reggie. Jose I could get to like better if we draft Irving & JC stays as his mentor. Not ready for all this Bayless love.
As for my choices, they go like this:
- MVP – I just can’t pick anyone in this category. Maybe Demar if I was being wash-boarded .
- MIP – Amir would be my choice. His FT% changed dramatically, as did his jump shot – the latter enabling him to draw out defenders. If he’s healthy next season, the results from him should be even better.
- LVP – Alabi – Not his fault, but as I view the LVP as the last player you want on the court, I have to tag Alabi with this one (even though that doesn’t seem quite fair). Putting Kleiza in this category strikes me as harsh, as I believe he was injured before the year began (and it just got worse as the season progressed).
- LIP – Weems – As much as some believe Bargs should get this award, I have to wonder if the unbiased opinions out there (including both extremes), don’t view the progress of Sonny as most disappointing – even though I do recognize he had back issues.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on May 3, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
LIP
I think that Weems might edge Bargnani out for this one, too. Weems was definitely the biggest disappointment.
As far as Bargnani was concerned, I thought he might improve and grow into an offensive leader for the team. There was no reason to expect that other than hope and unfortunately it didn’t happen. Statistically, Bargnani might have been a little worse than last year in some areas, but he one the whole he continued to be a one-dimensional player as he has pretty much always been.
Weems on the other hand looked like he really wanted to get better and seemed to be really making progress last season. It seemed totally reasonable to expect that he would continue his upward trajectory this season towards becoming a quality 6th/7th man type of player. Unfortunately, he went the other direction and I have no idea why. His defense seemed worse, his shot selection was definitely worse and he seemed to play more out of control than last season. This is all anecdotal, of course. So overall, he was clearly the biggest disappointment for me. Whether that makes him LIP or Most Disappointing Player, I don’t know.
Oops
I’m also a Davis fan ……. who was our ROY, but that’s only because there was no one else to vote for – in a true sense.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on May 3, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
MVP: Reggie Evans- The Raptors just seemed to be a completely different team when he was on the court. The defense was better. The communication was better. Sure he didn’t have much of an offensive game, but when you’re starting next to chuckers like Bargs and Klieza, not to mention Jose and Demar, offense was never really going to be needed from him. He was a great locker room guy as was shown (in my opinion) when he went on record saying Andrea was his all-star. He was a solid leader, picking his spots to speak up, howling from the side lines and being a good role model for some of the young lads. Also, he learned to play within himself. Instead of putting up ill-advised shots after pulling down a rebound, he looked to restart the offense or find the open man. And the rebounds, great googaly moogaly, the rebounds.
LVP: Linas Kleiza- I was actually excited when BC brought in Kleiza (stupid me). I was one of the many who thought he was going to bring some toughness to the team. Imagine my disappointment when he turned out to be Hedo 2.0. I still think Kleiza can be good value for the dollar provided he can come back from his injury, but I agree with some folks that he might be better suited as a sixth man giving us some instant offense off the bench.
Most improved: Jerryd Bayless- That late season surge was pretty impressive, but I’m a little concerned that his numbers were so much weaker coming off the bench. If he can show a desire to facilitate the offense rather than simply look for his own shots, I think he deserves some serious consideration for the starting point guard spot. Until then, I’d stick with Jose.
Least improved: Sonny Weems- You could tell he was in a contract year. Instead of trying to build on what made him such a positive at the end of the previous season, he just seemed to force up shots in an effort to pad his stats.
Stub of the year: Eddie House- I may be off the mark with this as I have just become aware of the term “Stub” this season, but for me it had to be Eddie House. As a Heat hater, it was a slap in the face to see a one dimensional player on a team I despise torch the Raptors.
The Biggest Problem With Evans Being the Raptors MVP
is that he he played less than 800 minutes all season.
It seems a bit odd that someone could be a starter for the first 19 games and finish the year averaging less than 10 mpg for the 82 games. 798/82 = <10 and be labeled MVP.
Odd indeed,
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansre01.html
Solid point. If we take Reggie out due to lack of playing time, I’d go with Derozan for MVP. Inefficient scoring and defensive liabilities aside, in a season with extremely low expectatrions, he gave us a reason to cheer all season long as well as someone to cheer for All-Star weekend.
Still, I hope we retain Reggies services for next season.
Well, for one thing he only played 30 games. The Raptors were 11-19 (.367, or 11th in the EC) with him in the lineup, playing (798/30) 26.3 minutes per game, while providing the highest WP48 on the team (0.319) and contributing 5.3 wins in his 30 games, or effectively half of every Raptors win in that time period. Meanwhile, when Reggie was out, the Raps won 11 games in the remaining 52 (11-41, .211, or last in the EC, 2nd behind Minnesota for dead last).
The fact that in the limited minutes he played, he contributed the 4th most wins on the team (5.3), very close to the same number of wins as Amir Johnson (6.1), who played 42 more games than him (ie almost 2.5 times as many), and also of course the clear improvement of the team defensively while he was out there (best defensive rating on the team), plus having the 6th best ORTG of the players still on the team (Peja and Andersen ranked above him, with their small sample sizes), I can’t see how his injury in any way prevented him from being the most valuable player to this team. He would have been more valuable had he been able to play more games, of course, but no one else surpassed him by enough in so many areas to take the title even when he was out.
Yes
In this case, you can actually see the impact of an MVP (on the team at least) because there is difference with how the team played with Reggie and without.
It’s pretty sad commentary on the state of the Raptors that a marginal player such as Reggie would have a strong case for being the team MVP.
Say What?
are you talking about Evans?
He had only 1.3 Win Shares and a WS/48 of .078.
In fact if you use the Win Share number Amir was first. It seems to me that Win Shares is a more accurate reflection of a player’s value than Wins Produced.
Re: Win Shares versus Wins Produced?
Some of the odd things about Berri’s Wins Produced number is
What one guy (now working for the Cavs, I think) said about WP:
… because Berri sets the threshold efficiency for scoring at league average, the sum of Wins Produced by scoring in the league is zero. Thats right, Berri’s metric says that throughout the entire league scoring did not contribute to any wins, that all 1230 wins in the league were created acquiring possession of the ball.
-—————————
So, unless players are shooting better than the league average — fewer than half of all players do this — their scoring effort actually counts negatively in their WP totals. (Reason #1 for Bargani’s negative Wins Produced)
Rebounds are all good, however. There’s nothing subtracted for the boards you didn’t secure. You might think everything below 1/10 of available rebounds — average by definition — would be subtracted. But no. Because everything must revolve around the mantra, Points are Overvalued, rebounding by default rises to the top of the heap. (Reason #2 that Bargnani had negative Wins Produced and that Evans has a high Wins Produced and high Wins Produced per 48 minutes)
In this scenario, guards have almost no value. They only get boosted by their ‘positional adjustment’. If you are a G-F who doesn’t rebound much, you better hope he calls you a G.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1001662&start=15
The article links a review of Berri’s book on Wins Produced
Book Review: Stumbling On Wins by David J. Berri and Martin B. Schmidt
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2010/04/book-review-stumbling-on-wins-by-david.html#links
Win Shares for basketball has been modified from Bill James, renowned baseball metrics guy, Win Shares
Calculating Win Shares
I. Introduction
Stealing a page from baseball’s Bill James, I decided to attempt to calculate basketball Win Shares. This article will describe how I came up with the Win Shares system for basketball. If you believe that any attempt to attribute team success to individual players is an abomination, then read no further, as this article will be of no interest to you.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html
What is also interesting about Berri’s Wins Produced is that I have never been able to find a comprehensive list of all NBA players Wins Produced on his website, though I am sure it exists.
Here are the Raptors leaders in Win Shares
Amir 5.7
Ed 4.0
Jose 3.7
DeMar 3.3
Andrea 2.6
WS/48 1,000 Minutes Min.
-————
Amir .146
Ed .120
League Average .100
Jose .085
Jerryd .065
DeMar .056
I could go through the issues with WS for you if you like, but the short hand is that there is a much better correlation with actual team wins with WP than with WS. No matter what reference point you choose, it is arbitrary, so choosing the league average is no worse a reference than any other. Also, since a player who is below average at shooting taking a shot is depriving a teammate with a better percentage of that shot, is he not hurting his team, statistically speaking?
Also, since I clearly was making the case for a player with less than a thousand minutes, what is your reasoning behind only showing the top WS producers for minutes over 1000 played? Clearly skewing your presentation to ignore my point.
Anyway, WP is in my opinion an infinitely more useful tool (though more difficult to calculate), and it, as well as the several other stats I referenced, including his impact on the team’s record when he was in the lineup, show clearly where I stand. What is your rebuttal to the other stats?
The Above Is Your Opinion
You bring so support for your argument.
What you are doing is trying to set up a straw man and then tear him down with just an opinion without support.
Your argument has no validity.
Next time when you enter this type of debate please bring more than an opinion. At least bring someone else’s opinion to quote from if you can’t bring the formulas and data points along with along with results.
You’re a smart guy – you can look up WP calculations yourself. Also, quoting another person’s opinion has no more value than giving my own. An opinion is an opinion. You yourself showed how to calculate WS, who led in WS, etc but did not in any way show that WS has any value. You presented WS as a counterargument to my WP statement (which is the more often used and accepted tool), so I challenge you to convince me that WS is of greater value. One statement about the definition of the reference point – which makes sense to me – in no way invalidates the usefulness of WP, nor does it in any way show that WS can be useful. If I wanted to write a paper on this, and quote references, I would. But I don’t – I just wanted to use a generally accepted statistical tool to show the support for my opinion. You clearly do want to write a paper, based on your above excerpts, but aren’t doing a good job of presenting or supporting your thesis.
Oh man… Sonny should play better on his contract year, don’t you think? I mean, just about in every sport, people always talk about those “contract years” where players start getting hungry for money.
Urg… Just man… Such a disappointment for me
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on May 3, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
He actually got worse in EVERY measurable advanced stat – here are his year-to-year changes based on Basketball-reference’s stats:
MPG: +4.1
PER: -2.7
TS%: -4.1
eFG%: -5.6
ORB%: -0.5
DRB%: -2.8
AST%: even
STL%: -0.3
BLK%: -1.3 (to effectively 0)
TOV%: +1.6
USG%: +1.9
ORTG: -8
DRTG: +3
You Guys Fprgot One
ROY.
Yes only an idiot would consider Alabi a candidate for Raptors ROY so it was pretty much of a slam dunk for Davis to be ROY.
Still all in all they were both rookies and they both played part of the season in the D-league so Ed did theoretically did have some competition for ROY.
I did note that Davis was left out of much of the discussion as he didn’t quite fit into any of our categories.
But if you did a LEAGUE-WIDE draft steal of the year, I’d say he’d be up there with Landry Fields.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Okay we all like Davis but lets not get crazy here. Fields was a mid to late second round draft choice who contributed to a playoff team with major minutes while Davis was a lottery pick who slipped because he missed a lot of the year before due to an injury. Davis may have been a steal but he was no near the steal Landry was (as it stands right now).
Ridiculous Debate
THERE IS NO MVP FOR A 22-WIN TEAM
We have a bunch of bench players masquearding as starters.
Saying that Bargnani cost them wins is a silly argument — every frickin player on this team cost the Raptors wins… that’s why there were only 22 wins!
And – saying LVP is the injured guy (Kleiza) is also a bit of a odd choice… what about a player that was in most of the games, and didn’t contribute up to expectations? (i.e. Weems)
Well, when Kleiza was playing (injured, but playing) he was pretty terrible. But I agree – Weems definitely deserved the LIP given to him in a couple spots above.
Saying that Bargnani cost them wins is a silly argument — every frickin player on this team cost the Raptors wins… that’s why there were only 22 wins!
Solid point ha ha.
It’s sort of why I felt there was no “most improved or least improved.” The team got worse on a macro level in every major way outside of rebounding.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Every Player On The Team Cost Them Wins
Are you kidding me?
Even D. Rose cost the Bulls some wins with a bad game here and there.
The point is .
Did Bargnani’s overall play during the season make the Raptos worse or better as opposed to playing just an average player in his place ? I would argue that he made the Raptors worse then they would have been had they had a average player playing in his place.
JMO
I Disagree
Bargnani played a role, had some strengths (or – “slightly above average areas”) and weaknesses, but I don’t think you can argue that putting say Sonny Weems or Julian Wright (or whoever is “average” on the Raps) out there instead of Bargnani would have led to more wins.
I mean, the whole reason for combining Evans and Bargnani on the floor was to balance out the team. You could make the opposite point that Evans would have led to more losses if you had an average rebounder out there at Center (since his one skill – rebounding – would be less meaningful).
lol one of you says demar is least improved the other says most improved
by raptors_run_the_show on May 3, 2011 7:19 PM EDT reply actions
Was it just me
or did anyone else have a tough time picking MVP. I ended up choosing Amir for the same reason as Howland stated.
You know, the discussion on Bargnani should be closed until he shows us otherwise. Last year was a horrible year and expect his playing time to decrease. How anyone can argue his merits anymore, after five freaken season’s, well it’s inexplicable. Frustrating player. And have now given up on him ever “getting it”. And for the record I’ve can’t recall any unwarrented Bargnani bashing from the HQ(well, most of you).
Next year will be a big one for DeRozan. I always said, regardless of his age, he was a kid learning to play with men. I expect him to be in the discussion for most improved player next season..
Bargnani Lover Boys Can Say What They Want
He will not be starting for the Raptors by next seasons the all-star game at the latest.
Whether he will be gone or coming off the bench only time will tell.
see how stupid people are
they have Andrea Bargnani as MVP of this season thats madness , no wonder NBA players or media dont like this team, idiots and they still believe triano doing a great job wow , When triano is fired i well welcome my team till then drop dead Toronto Raptors and the organization






























