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Raptors HQ Draft Prospect Preview #1 - Alec Burks

Alec Burks can dunk with the best of them, but is he a DeMar DeRozan clone?


With the draft drawing nearer by the day, the HQ starts taking a look at some of the top options for the Raptors this year...starting with Colorado's Alec Burks...

Star-divide

So are we done with the Andrea Bargnani drama?

Maybe for now, but I've got a feeling his name will keep popping up over the summer both in regards to fit with whomever the Toronto Raptors select in the draft, and via trade rumours.

For now though, I'm prepared to put things to rest as it does now appear that Andrea's comments were misconstrued, and the reality is that the real focus right now should be the upcoming draft.

Bryan Colangelo even addressed the situation yesterday on a must-listen-to episode of Tim and Sid, saying that what Toronto Star columnist Dave Feschuk wrote regarding the situation, "while not completely off-base, was inaccurate."  

So let's cut back to the draft shall we?

We know names like Kemba Walker, Kyrie Irving and Derrick Williams but what about some of the lesser known prospects, especially those that Toronto appears to have an eye on?

Every year we take an in-depth look at these names and this morning we kick it off with a player projected to be a top 10 pick, and one that Bryan Colangelo mentioned early in this draft process as being of interest to the Raps.

This player is none other than Colorado's Alec Burks.

I saw quite a bit of Burks watching Big 12 action last year (I still can't believe Colorado didn't get an NCAA tourney bid) and his athleticism and scoring ability stood out from the pack.  He wasn't a great shooter, but possessed many of the other intangibles that teams look for in an NBA shooting guard, and as a result, it seemed likely that he would make his sophomore season with the Buffaloes, his final one.

Sure enough, Burks declared on April 21 and has been viewed as a lottery pick, potentially even top 10, since that time.

Recently, Hoopsword had a nice piece on Burks but to really get a good understanding of Alecs' game, I turned to the folks at SB Nation's, "The Ralphie Report," covering the Colorado Buffaloes, and Bob Bell obliged us with this great breakdown: 

-Background

Alec Burks was recruited to play at Colorado by former NBA head coach Jeff Bzdelik out of Grandview High in Missouri. Burks was named High School player of the year in Missouri but was rather lightly recruited by the rest of the Big 12 (only other legitimate offer came from Kansas State late in the process). Between the time Burks signed with Colorado and when he enrolled, he grew an additional four inches which really benefited him at the college level. Many feel he may still be growing now. Very early in his Colorado career, Buff fans knew they had a special player. As a freshman, he scored double digits in every game except one, the 21stgame of the season where he was hurt in the first minutes of the contest against Iowa State and didn't return. Not only did Burks score consistently his freshman season, he scored very efficiently, shooting well over 50% for the year.

As a sophomore, Burks continued to be the Buffs' best scorer and led the team to the NIT semifinals. Burks was named first team All Big 12 averaging over 20 points per game and six rebounds. He will go down as one of the best scorers in Colorado history. He was 3rd all-time in scoring average at Colorado with 19.0 ppg, 7th in free throw percentage (.804) and holds the CU freshman (512) and sophomore (779) scoring records. I also think the NBA team that gets him will be surprised about how he can rebound at the next level. He was second on the team in rebounding a year ago and his 397 career rebounds ranks sixth among CU guards all time in just two years.

Like I said earlier, Burks was extremely consistent and efficient over the past two years. He had 54 games with at least five or more FGs and 41 games with 18+ points, 39 games which he shot over 50% from the field.

-Strengths

Burks has a great ability to get to the rim which helps him shoot a high percentage and score points in bunches. He is deadly when he moves without the basketball cutting towards the rim. He also knows how to get to the free throw line and when he is there, he shoots a high percentage. Very comparable to a Carmelo Anthony in his ability to get to the paint and score or get fouled. He isn't a flashy scorer but the type of scorer when you look at the stat sheet every night, he has 24 points, 8 rebounds and 3 steals.

His size is another great quality for a perimeter player and he may be growing still. At 6'6", he has the ability to elevate over small players on the perimeter. He isn't afraid to rebound and when he commits himself, he can be a good defender.

-Weaknesses

The biggest weakness you will read about Burks is his outside shot. He isn't a great three point shooter with most of his points coming from within 15 feet. He has an unorthodox shot mechanically that will need to be fine tuned. He can score from the outside but he has a long way to go to become a "shooting" guard instead of a simply inhabiting the 2 spot.

Sometimes he can get lackadaisical on the defensive end. A coach that can keep his motor going night in and night out on both ends of the floor will get the most out of Alec. He also could add some weight which will help him stay healthy and maintain success over an 82 game season.

Has room to grow as a ball handler.

-Upside

He has all the talent and athleticism you could want in a perimeter player. He is very young and has room to grow into his frame. If he can become more consistent with his outside shot, he can score from anywhere on the court. He isn't afraid of contact and his ability to get into the paint is a great way to fill up the stat sheet on an off shooting night.

-Future as an NBA SG

Like I said above, he needs to develop into a shooting guard. He definitely isn't a point guard, but isn't a treu shooting guard yet either.

A big thanks again to Bob and the folks at the Ralphie Report for the breakdown.

For me, the player I compare Burks most to incidentally is DeMar DeRozan.

Both were exceptional athletes out of college with suspect outside shots, but who could bring down the house with a big dunk:


Both DeMar and Alec were also college players who could attack the rim with ease, but who needed to improve their ball-handling abilities at the next level.

In that sense then, it probably doesn't make a ton of sense for the Raps to draft another DeMar, especially not at 5.

But what if Colangelo sees another need that he can address by trading Demar, and moving down in this draft a few places?

Perhaps the mere suggestion of moving DeRozan is sacrilege to some, but really, I'm not sure there's anyone save for maybe Ed Davis who warrants an "untouchable" status on this club, so if BC can make some moves to secure an elite 3 or 5 I'm all for it.

If that's the case then, perhaps come end of June, Alec Burks becomes a member of the Dinos.

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In The Interview If I Recall Correctly

BC stated clearly that this year the Raptors will draft based upon the talent available and a Raptors need, not like last season where it was take the best player available.

Will that be Burks at #5?

DraftExpress has him going #11 and NBADraft.net has him going #10

He may turn out to become a VG player and maybe even eventually better than DeMar but it seems to me that while he may be a fan favorite of some it is a real long shot that he ends up being drafted by the Raptors at #5.

Nice article though.

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 10:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Can’t see him being an option at 5 either but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get a workout invite in any event.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on May 26, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

If anything

he provides good workout fodder and a tough matchup for guys like Kawhi Leonard to defend.

by HDave on May 26, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

That’s one of the best things about the workouts.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on May 26, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

re: draft workout matchups

Great point. Given our draft position, I can see us being turned down for workouts by wing players further down in the first round. Travel takes too much of a toll to workout for every team in the NBA, so they try to be selective.

Among the potential lottery picks, I think a Kawhi Leonard, Alex Burks and Chris Singleton (dark horse for lottery) workout would be interesting. Just mix in another SG (like Marshawn Brooks, Klay Thompson or Scotty Hopson) to even things up.

A Kanter, Jonas V and Biyombo workout would be VERY telling. Too bad their agents wouldn’t let it happen on their watch.

by Yardly on May 26, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he sounds more like an ideal SF (albeit undersized) than a point guard. Hitting the 3 maybe an important asset to have but if he can attack the rim and create for himself within 20 feet I could live without a solid 3 point shot (say somewhere in the neighbourhood of 25-30%)

by McGateway on May 26, 2011 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Burk isn't a SF in anyway

He is actually phisically weak to effectively play SG. At Colorado they briefly tried him at PG because he couldn’t guard SGs even at 6’6. I actually like him tho, reminds me of Jamal Crawford without the 3pt range. With added body strength he’s gonna be a decent to good SG.

by Member29 on May 26, 2011 11:17 AM EDT reply actions  

Like the Crawford compare Member29.

Unless Burks is indeed still growing, think he’s a solid 2 in the league. He indeed has to get stronger, but you can say that about so many wiry, athletic 2’s when they enter the L. Crawford was the same when he was drafted by the Bulls, DeRozan still needs to work on this, as per our talk with Eric Hughes a few weeks ago.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on May 26, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting prospect, questionable fit

Burks sounds like a good prospect. I could see people arguing that he does the same things as DeRozan, but more efficiently. Of course, that argument is unverifiable until Burks plays in the NBA. The other thing is that DeRozan has two years of physical development and NBA experience under his belt. A bird in the hand and all that…

by DW19 on May 26, 2011 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

re fit on the wing

True. I think there is room for a SG/SF in the rotation, however it doesn’t look like there are any in our range.
Burks does sound like he’s more well rounded in the skills area, whereas DeRozan had the advantage in terms of
athleticism. It would seem like a waste of a pick to draft a player who just ends up duplicating the talents of the player you have ahead of him in the rotation. I think the team is trending towards large bodied wing players to man the SF position (Marion, Linas Kleiza, James Johnson) so I don’t see extra minutes there for either DeRozan or Burks.

by Yardly on May 26, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

My Initial Survery of Mock Drafts

I Polled Nine Mock Drafts and here is the breakdown for the Raptors

Valanciunas -——— 3
Walker -—————-2
Knight -—————- 2
Leonard -———— 1
Vesely -—————-1

1. DraftExpress
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Knight
4. Valanciunas
5. Walker

http://www.draftexpress.com/

2. NBADraftnet
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Knight
4. Kanter
5. Valanciunas

3. MyNBADraft
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Knight
4. Kanter
5. Walker

http://www.mynbadraft.com/2011-NBA-Mock-Draft

4. Bleacher Report – For what it is worth
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Kanter
3. Williams
4. Vesely
5. Valanciunas

http://tinyurl.com/3doatbs

5. HoopsHype
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Knight
4. Kanter
5. Valanciunas

http://hoopshype.com/draft.htm

6. HoopsWorld
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Kanter
3. Walker
4. Williams
5. Leonard

http://www.hoopsworld.com/the_draft/FullMockDraft.asp

7. Chad Ford – ESPN
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Knight
4. Kanter
5. Vesely

http://tinyurl.com/3b3e7b5

8. Yahoo Sports
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Walker
4. Valanciunas
5. Knight

http://tinyurl.com/67ttv5r

9. Dime Magazine
-—————————
1. Irving
2. Williams
3. Kanter
4. Leonard
5. Knight

http://tinyurl.com/44r8ebz

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Based Upon The Above It Looks Like

the consensus is no Kanter for the Raptors

With Valanciunas, Knight and Walker being the consensus favorites.

I would agree with this.

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Aaaah…stealing tomorrow’s post Buddahfan!!!

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on May 26, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

No Problem

I don’t believe in the “copywrite” and IP concepts so you can use whatever you choose without giving me credit for any of it.

The Libertarian Case
Against Intellectual Property Rights
 
by Roderick T. Long

http://freenation.org/a/f31l1.html

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually was going to do a combo post looking at what the various mocks are saying, and what the combine test results indicate about some of the guys on Toronto’s radar.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on May 26, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

didn’t like Walker in College and I don’t think he’s a starter in the NBA. The fact that he’s a lottery pick is a testament to how weak this draft is. Walker tho, if Knight is off the board, is a safe pick from a talent and marketing perspective whereas the Euro bigs aren’t quite as safe and they do absolutely nothing for the business-marketing side of things. You can’t market a Euro big that no one knows much about and who is 3 yrs from being NBA ready.

by Member29 on May 26, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets Look At Your Points in Your Post

1. My reply had nothing to about whether you liked Walker or not as your post that I commented on also did say anything about whether you liked him or not, though you may have posted that on another thread or some other place on this thread. In any case your first comment is not relevant to my comment.

2. Knight is a safe pick? Now that BC has a new contract he isn’t IMO going to worry about what the Raptors bloggers reporters or fans think about his actual pick this draft at #5..

3. Euros do nothing in the business-side marketing of things? I suppose if BC traded Davis and Bargnani for Dirk this summer that season ticket holder sales would plummet? The only reason that Euros haven’t done much from a business/marketing perspective of MLSE is because other than Calderon whose personality is vanilla, the Raptors haven’t any Euro that has been good enough to significantly positively affect the marketing/business side of things.

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You literally said: “I Think That Is Who You Prefer From The List.” So, it seems like you did say he liked him.

by dhackett1565 on May 26, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

You Could Be Correct

However, preferring something or someone does not mean that you like that thing or that person.

You could prefer the lesser of two evils or the thing that you liked the least if you had to choose.

You could have a preference for a taking one drug rather than another that your doctor advocates. Doesn’t mean that you necessarily like your preferred drug from the list of available choices. You just don’t dislike it as much.

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, so you are operating under the belief that Member29 does not like, even a little, a single one of the prospects in our range in the upcoming draft? In any other context, the difference between like and prefer is negligible.

by dhackett1565 on May 26, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Garbajosa would have been a highly marketable Euro if he hadn’t had that horrific injury. Toronto fans love guys who play with heart they way Garbo did.

by DW19 on May 26, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dirk is very marketable yes and there are and have been quite a few Euros that r very

marketable. My point was drafting for eg jonas valanciunas who is abt 3-4 yrs away from being able to bang with Kendrick Perkins is not a good move from a marketing perspective bec the fan base has absolutely nothing to get excited about especially bec they know very little abt the player.

Kember walker is safe in terms of bringing in a player the fan base knows has some talent based on his track record in college. Whether or not Kember or even Knight end up being any good is another story but you can immediately but a UCONN or Kentucky 5th pick on ticket stubs while giving the fans another young exciting prospect they’re familiar with.

For the record I would love to draft a Dirk, if jonas valanciunas, or Jan Vasely or one of those guys looked the part I’d love to have them. The Euros in this particular draft however leave a lot to be desired based on the very little footage and few games we are able to see of them. I could be totally wrong tho, I’m no scout.

by Member29 on May 26, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

re marketing a draft pick

If we need to market a bigman in addition to Amir, how about “Easy” Ed Davis. I’m pretty sure that nickname has been taken by someone else but it fits so darn well :-)

If I was trying to spin drafting a project, I would say that we actually lucked out in drafting Ed, and thus don’t need immediate contribution from an incoming rookie bigman. If this was a SF we were talking about, I wouldn’t be so patient. However, bigmen are rare and thus we have to make exceptions. Solomon Alabi hasn’t played meaningful minutes, yet is on a three year deal. Colangelo is willing to be patient since he realizes you can’t purchase that kind of size on the open market. And if they turn out and you already have enough bigs you can demand a very healthy return.

My fear with Kemba is exactly how does he stack up with the pgs we currently have. Bayless is no slouch in the score first department, and a much better finisher around the rim. Calderon is a pure point guard, which is the opposite of Kemba. And Leandro Barbosa is that combo forward that BC is so happy with that he’s broached the idea of an extension. Knight has the kind of youth and physical tools which suggest he would be worth moving players around when he’s ready to take on a larger role. Kemba seems like more of the ready made product, and I’m not sure if he’s that much better then the PGs available on the free agent market from season to season.

by Yardly on May 26, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can’t purchase that kind of size on the open market

The Raptors acquired Ajinca, along with a second round pick for Georgios Printezis. While Ajinca is not as big as Alabi he is still 7’ tall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/ajincal01.html

Dallas got Chandler and Ajinca for three basic bums comparing their total value to Chandler’s value.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/ajincal01.html

 What about all the times that Shaq has been traded?

So I don’t agree that you can’t purchase (trade for) that kind of size in the open market.

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

re: bigmen on the free agent market

Can’t is a very strong word, something which you seem to have honed in on right off the bat, as is your right.
I used the words “purchase” and “open market” as standins for free agency.

If our criteria for a big that would be attractive to the team is anyone that is 6"10 + and plays C/PF then yes, there is someone for everyone. Alexis Ajinca, Solomon Alabi, David Anderson, Rafael Araujo and of course Robert Archibald. And that’s just the A’s!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Raptors_all-time_roster

A question that I have is how difficult it would be to secure the calibre of bigs that you see as worthwhile targets. You’ve cited DeAndre Jordan a few times for example. What kind of price do you see him commanding on the open market. And since he’s a restricted free agent what are the chances that the Clippers refuse to match the offer of another team? I would lump Marc Gasol into this same category, as young Restricted Free Agents that aren’t likely to go unmatched by their current team.

We’ve tried to trade for Tyson Chandler once, so its reasonable to assume we’d also try to sign him as a free agent. Why would Tyson Chandler sign with the Raptors over his many other suitors, with the 2011 NBA finalist Dallas Mavericks at the top of that list? As a follower of the LA Clippers, surely you acknowledge that not everyone’s free agent money was created equal?

If we’re looking for a stopgap center, someone that would not necessarily still be around when the current core is peaking, well there is no shortage of candidates, as the link below shows. If you’re looking at young centers, most of the ones that are available as free agents have been released by their current teams because they just aren’t any good. While shopping in the bargain bin seems to have been one of the themes of the last two years (Joey Dorsey, Patrick O’Bryant etc), these players are usually available for a reason. A popular one is that they either couldn’t cut it games, or couldn’t even show the potential for improvement in practice.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/story.asp?story_id=18192

by Yardly on May 26, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

All I Know About D'Andre Jordand or Kaman Possibly Playing for another

team in 2011-12 is that Kaman has said that he doesn’t like sharing time at the Center position; i.e. he wants to play 35+ mpg.

I really don’t have a good feel what Jordan might sign for. He has to be worth at least what Amir got or more simple because Jordan is such a huge presence on defense in the paint.

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT - RealGM Very Recent Interview With Arvydas Sabonis

still the greatest Euro player of all time. I am talking about of those who played most of their career in the Euro leagues.

If you go foreign born then it would be Duncan if you consider someone born in the U.S. Virgin Islands as foreign born.

Interview

http://tinyurl.com/3soeno2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 11:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Nash Has Been One Heck Of A NBA Player

however I don’t believe that he has been as good as Duncan especially when you consider the number of Finals appearances and rings that they both have.

Yes Nash has had a better NBA career than Sabonis but that was because Sabonis came to the NBA when he was thirty and unfortunately had his career shortened by injuries.

But as far as for their career regardless of where they played I would rank the non-American born players

1. Duncan if you count him as non-American born
2. Sabonis
3. Nash

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Duncan counts in this poll ...

You would have to include Patrick Ewing who was born in Jamaica and Dominique Wilklins who was born in Paris. Ewing spent his pre teen years in JA, he like Duncan, learned the game in the US.

Also have to shout out Panamanian born Rolando Blackman in this post.

Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com

by rbala on May 26, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those Guys Were Good But Not As Good As Sabonis or Duncan

One could argue that Wilkins and maybe Ewing were better than Nash but they were at least in my opinion not nearly as good as Duncan, who some consider the greatest PF ever and Sabonis who many who saw him play consider him one of the top five centers of all time anywhere.

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Sabonis

by Buddahfan on May 26, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is ridiculous...

Sory but you’ve been listening to Leo Rautin’s diatribes on Sabonis way to much. Sabonis, while a talented big man, was a big fish in small ponds that beat up on the Euro-leagues for years. If Patric Ewing played his entire career in the Euro legues back in the 90’s they would have had to shut the league down because he would be getting Wilt Chamberlain numbers every night. Another Euro inflated by beer-league type competition.

Further, the fact that you’ve put Sabonis in your top 5 centres all time and left Hakeem Olojuwan off speaks volumes…

by MAS11 on May 26, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree Hakeem should be on the list. Maybe even in 4th ahead of Shaq(skill-wise Hakeem was lightyears better, but Shaq does have ridiculous size and athleticism in his early career). Sabonis would probably be in the Top 10 of all-time centres.

MAS, I think you are out to lunch about the European game, but that’s your prerogative. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

by DW19 on May 27, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

How am I “out to lunch” on this? Do you disagree that there is a significant difference in the level of competition between the NBA and the Euroleagues? That’s the basic point I’m making here and I don’t think that’s too contraversial. In fact, I would argue its hard to dispute this. If they’re playing in the Euroleagues, its because they CAN’T play in the NBA. Especially back in Sabonis’ time. I find it challanging to laud a player like Sabonis when he was playing Centre against guys that were either at 5 inches shorter than him or couldn’t chew gum and walk at the same time… Patrick Ewing did it against the Rick Smits, Dikembe Mutumbos, David Robinsons and Hakeem Olajuwans of the world on a nightly basis, name ONE great centre Sabonis played against in the Euro leagues…

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I do disagree about the difference between the top European teams and the NBA. I think the top teams in Europe would give this year’s Raptors a run for their money in a seven game series and maybe win. I don’t think top European teams are as good as most NBA teams, but I don’t there is yawning chasm in between the two.

Considering Europe has many times more teams than the NBA spread across lots of countries it is obviously true that any given team might not be that great, but the top teams are good.

A few Sabonis highlights from Wikipedia:

- The reason he didn’t come to the NBA sooner is not because he couldn’t make the grade it is because he was born on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain.

- He lead Lithuania to Bronze medals in the ‘92 and ’96 Olympics against competition that included NBA players. He also the Soviet Union to Gold in ’88, but I assume you don’t count that (although the USA team had David Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Danny Manning and others). On top of that he has various World Championship and European Championship medals, which presumably you also don’t count.

- By the time he came to the NBA at 31 he already had suffered significant injuries to his knees, achilles, groin, etc… and he played 7 more seasons and put up decent numbers. For a guy who was basically hobbling around at that point, he was able to shoot, pass, rebound and defend remarkably well.

A story from Pete Newell(big man guru):

 “A rebound bounced high off the rim and over toward the corner,” Newell recounted. “Sabonis went up for it way out there, took the ball in one hand and — still up in the air, off balance — swept the ball backhand, like a discuss thrower in reverse, and hit a teammate in stride downcourt 86 feet away for an easy layup. I’d never seen a play like it.”

Here is some grainy video of Sabonis dominating David Robinson at the Olympics if you care:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwuNWNSgeQ

by DW19 on May 27, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Saboonis in the NBA, where most people here would have seen him, or at least be familiar with...

Was, as mentioned, past his prime and hobbled to whatever degree while being overweight…

And yet as I recall, he was the ONLY Center in the NBA who could manage Shaq, because Shaq was in his prime and beasting EVERYBODY else…

And he had actual skills, not just a dunk machine…

If his prime years had been in the NBA where more casual viewers would have seen, he would be heralded as one of the All Time Greats, no doubt about it…

I wonder how many actual games the Euro-Ball Detractors have watched to make these educated comparisons…

I bet it isn’t a fraction of the number of NBA games, or even a fraction of the number of college games…

It’s pretty hard to make a such definitive statements on something you only have casual, circumstantial knowledge of and seem credible…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guys, as I said in my very first post, I’m not disagreeing Sabonis was a “talented big man”. But to consider him one of the all time great basketball players when he never played against the best competition of his era until he was limitted by injuries and age is silly. Who knows, maybe if he did come to the NBA we would have an answer to this question, but he didn’t. He did most of his damage against a league where the level of talent is absolutely a yawning casim behind the NBA.

That’s my main point here, you guys are giving way to much credit to a league (or collection of leagues) that is so obviously a significant step down from the NBA. The entire league is made of players that were not good enough to make it to the NBA. Not sure why this is so difficult to get your heads around. Look, Anthony Parker a player who couldn’t stick with the 76rs went to the Euroleague and was the Michael Jordan of that quaint little outfit for almost a decade. He came back to the NBA and while a decent role player, wasn’t even a top 15 player at his position. Why do you think that is?
Now, has the international game improved since the popularity of the Dream team and has the Euroleague gotten better over the last decade? Probably. Is it anywhere close to the level of competition in the NBA. No chance.
And Mikthaniel, I watched a whole whack of Euroball last summer on Raptor’s TV because I’m a degenerate hoops junkie. So I’m not talking from sheer ignorance. There is just still a big gap in talent and that’s that.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, what’s you point? If I watched more Euro ball the quality and talent of the players would improve?

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was exactly my point, you have a FRACTION of the data to compare...

I am not saying that makes your observations any less accurate, I’m just using you as an example…

One summer of watching Euroleague games last summer, doesn’t give anyone enough information to say that Sabonis only dominated in Europe in his prime because none of the other players could hack it in the NBA…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nonsense

Anyone that knows ANYTHING about basketball can tell from wtaching ONE Euroleague game that the quality of play and talent level of the players is a significant step down from the NBA. This isn’t rocket science. To argue that if you watched a lifetime of Euroleague basketball you would come to a differnt conclusion is absurd. Anagin, if these players could be playing in the NBA, THEY WOULD BE PLAYING IN THE NBA.

As for Sabonis, my point is pretty simple and not that contraversial. He did not play against the top competition in the world at the time, therefore you cannot qualify him as one of the greats ever. Doing so would be subposiition and speculation. Hey I will even go so far to admit that it is possible that he may have faired well against the best players in the world in the NBA (however I maintane my opinion – and I realize it is opinion because it cannot be proved – that he would not be one of the all time greats). But the sad fact is we’ll never know, because he didn’t.

And my referance is absolutely relevant to Sabonis unless you’re saying that Euroleague competition has gotten WORSE over the last 10 to 15 years! The Euroleague has probably improved with the increased global popularity of basketball. Therefore, I would argue the league is better now tahn it was when Sabonis played in it. Meaning the level of competition he faced back then was even further behind the NBA than it would be if he played in the Euroleague today.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just a couple points here MAS:

1) When he was in the NBA – he was VERY solid. And this was when he was older and run down – so simple extrapolation would show that he at least arguably COULD be one of the greatest big men ever.

2) When he played in international competitions, he regularly performed very well against even the best C’s in the world, including from the States.

3) Your argument for the improvement of the talent level in the Euroleague can also be applied to the NBA, since the game has also grown in the US since then, and more players have come over to the NBA from Europe, so your conclusion that the talent level has increased isn’t entirely rock-solid.

by dhackett1565 on May 27, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

  • last point should read “… your conclusion that the talent level difference has increased…”

by dhackett1565 on May 27, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

1) Solid point. However, again, there’s just no way to know. Was he so much better before he got to the NBA that he would have domminated the NBA in his prime to the point that he would be considered one of the greatest ever? No way to answer this with certainty I suppose. I will hedge on the cautious side though and say no as its a bold statement to put a player in the same catagory as the Bill Russles, Wilts and Olajuwans and would therefore require some pretty significant evidence.

2) I’m not disputing this as this was before my time, but I’m doubtful. However, if you have any links/evidence to back this up, I’m willing to take a look.

3) I think the global rise in popularity of Basketball post Dream Team 1 had to have had a more significant impact on international basketball than the domestic game simply because of the oportunity for growth. While sure there may have been an increase in talent in the NBA, I would say the trajectory for improvement is much steaper for the Euroleague.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

if these players could be playing in the NBA, THEY WOULD BE PLAYING IN THE NBA

Yea? You’ve personally talked to all the Euro players and they all said the only reason they aren’t playing in the NBA is they can’t?

Hmmm… So, Rubio can’t? No wait, you’ll say he’s too scared, discount that…

Garbajosa couldn’t? Maybe he was washed up, and so was also scared…

It’s a blatent falsehood and an unquestionable exaggeration to say that every player who COULD play in the NBA, IS playing in the NBA…

Not everybody that plays ball dreams of moving to a different HEMISPHERE to continue to play ball, just because they could…

And, to your point about referencing talent, the two-handed underhand technique was highly popular in the NBA at one point too, and players used to all wear nut-huggers, luckily the US game has eveolved as well as the European game…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, of course there are exceptions to every rule. But to argue that because of examples like Rubio and Garbajosa it is reasonable to suggest that the majority of Euroleague players could play in the NBA for more money and more fame and in the best league in the world but choose not to is ridiculous. Yes, there are players that maybe could have been good role players in the NBA, like say Garbajosa. But they decided to stay and be STARS in the Euroleague. This actually proves my point.

You can’t seriously be arguing that there isn’t a major difference between the level of talent in the NBA and the Euroleague. Come on… This is silly.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, never said I was arguing it...

I questioned the reliability of data gathered over watching one summer of Euro ball, LAST YEAR ONLY, to state unequivocally that:

If they’re playing in the Euroleagues, its because they CAN’T play in the NBA. Especially back in Sabonis’ time.

If you were to have stated that you checked out who he played against at the time, and whether or not his country would let him leave to play ball in the US, you would have a more logical argument.

Like I said I only used you as an example because you were directly involved, but to throw out a statement like that, is very common, while I’m sure most people who do so, couldn’t even name 5 Teams from Europe, let alone say they have watched enough to make an educated analysis…

Just because you don’t know the names of the top 5 Centers in the League Sabonis played in when he was in his prime, doesn’t mean you’re right to assume they are “he was playing Centre against guys that were either at 5 inches shorter than him or couldn’t chew gum and walk at the same time…”

Just because I’ve never seen you in person doesn’t mean I can justify telling people, without a doubt, that you are a 4 foot tall, chinese immigrant, who dies his hair pink and drives a Fiat… because I don’t know you, or any of that…

Just like you don’t have the first clue about who Sabonis played ball against…

But, hey you watched a summer’s worth last year so you must be right…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh and by the way MAS...

On your behalf, I would offer that, in most International Games, where the World’s teams beat the USA, and look like such dominant forces, it IS typically because the NBA players went home to their countries of origin and played against US NBA players…

So International results don’t accurately have any merit in the Euro vs NBA talent discussion… because it’s typically the NBA players on those World teams who are the driving forces…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, this is why the USA freaking “C” team missing its “A” AND “B” level stars walked through the worlds last summer WITH LAMAR ODUM AS THEIR STARTING CENTRE!!!

And to your point… EXACTLY! The good international players are playing in the NBA!!!!

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

This is ridiculous… No I can’t name anyone of the amazing centres Sabonis dominated in the Euroleague and neither can you! Because they were NOBODIES!!!! THAT’S THE ENTIRE POINT! LOL

And you keep bringing up the point I made about players in the Euroleague not being able to play in the NBA… Are you disputing this? Are you suggesting the majority of players in that league would rather play for a fraction of the money, in front of a fraction of the fans in places like Russia, Greece and Lithuania than in the NBA? Really is this your point?!?!

And you can hang on to the point I made about actually having watched some Euroleague last summer… But you continue to dance around the fact that you don’t need to watch a lifetime of Euroleague to understand the very simple fact that it is no where near the level of competition of the NBA.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

MAS, Sabonis was drafted by the Atlanta Hawks in the 80s, who would have loved to get him over to the NBA, but he was stuck in the USSR. He could theoretically have defected I suppose, but it’s pretty tough for a 7’3" guy to slip undetected out of a country that doesn’t want him to leave.

by DW19 on May 27, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not disputing that he could have played in the NBA

He actually did play in the NBA. I’m disputing the value of his illustrious career playing against stiffs in the Euroleague. But yes, it would be tough to smuggle a 7’3" Sabonis over the iron curtain in the trunk of a Yugo.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And again...
playing against stiffs in the Euroleague

Give me some examples to prove you have a valid point, or quit using the point…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are the one suggesting they are not stiffs...

and that I am ignorant about the magnificant Euroleague. So YOU give me the examples.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Umm, if you can read, then you can identify that I am not arguing the point one way or the other, and that you are the one who repeatedly brings it up as an example, even though it's an example you have no foundation for...

I haven’t said ONE thing about what his level of competition was in Europe, NOT ONE…

I noted how well he played Shaq in the NBA, that’s it…

So again, if you are going to continue to throw it out there like it’s gospel, give me a reason to believe you… otherwise find a new argument… because YOU"RE the one arguing the point…

I’m merely trying to help you make a sensible case…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sooooo you can’t provide any examples… Good, so I’m going to continue with my assertion that there are no examples of quality centres that Sabonis was playing against in Europe. Give me a reason to think otherwise. No, you can’t. So you agree that the level of competition was signigicantly lower in the Euroleagues. Good, glad to see you have been agreeing with me and wasting time arguing nonsense…

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it funny that you think I'm arguing against you...

All I’m asking you to do is put together a sensible reasoning for your position…

I’m pretty sure that it’s still okay to ask somebody why they have the opinion they do, if they’re up on a soap box shouting it to the masses…

You should be happy to give a plethora of examples to illustrate your logic… I’m open to hearing them… I even tried to help you get started, spoon-feeding you the International Competition example…

But you continue to repeat that “this is the truth because it just is and you can’t prove it isn’t”… well that doesn’t exactly build a foundation of belief…

I agree with the general premise of your observation, I just don’t feel I should have to be the one to explain your reasons, you’re the one preaching…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okl I'll put it in simple terms for a simple mind

Here are my arguments:

Sabonis cannot be considered one of the greatest centres of all time as he did not play against the best level of competition.

The level of competition in the Euroleague today and even moreso in Sabonis’ time is significantly weaker than that in the NBA.

I have given you examples/arguments (i.e. Anthony Parker, NBA earning potential, draw of best competition) and I have refuted your rebuttles (i.e. you suggesting that because Gabajosa played in Europe its wrong to think that the vast majority of NBA capable players played in the NBA).

You are being argumentative and childish asking me to prove absolute truths without providing ANY legitimate arguments to challange my position. So I’ll just agree to disagree with you Mikthaniel because you’re really not adding any value to this discussion at this point.

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who's disagreeing with you?

I only asked you to make sense…

This post actually had some semblance of that, congratulations…

I still question the legitimacy of “Sabonis cannot be considered one of the greatest centres of all time as he did not play against the best level of competition” , because it’s pure speculation on your part, not based on actual knowledge…

I accept your modern day examples of Parker.

It is wrong of you to change your statement now to make you look correct however…

the vast majority of NBA capable players played in the NBA

is hardly the same statement as:

if these players could be playing in the NBA, THEY WOULD BE PLAYING IN THE NBA

or

The entire league is made of players that were not good enough to make it to the NBA

or

If they’re playing in the Euroleagues, its because they CAN’T play in the NBA

So, it’s nice that you’re coming around to a more sensible point of view, and making slightly more sense now, but don’t be all mad because you weren’t initially…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are being argumentative and childish asking me to prove absolute truths without providing ANY legitimate arguments to challange my position

I don’t have to be challenging your opinion to ask you to explain it…

I’m not adding anything AT ALL to the discussion, I’m asking you questions hoping that you might!

I haven’t disagreed with you, I’ve asked you to explain what caused you to draw your conclusions…

If you told me that chocolate was better for you than vegetables, and I asked you what study you read that showed that, that doesn’t mean I disagree, it means I care about how you came to your conclusion. I don’t have to give a counter example of a study disproving it, because I’m not disproving anything, I’m merely asking what LOGICAL means you used to come to that conclusion…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're missing my point...

I’m not disagreeing with you…

I’m just saying you aren’t putting together a logical argument…

The part about International Talent was exactly meant to help you defend your stance…

I never said he DID play against anybody of quality, I said I don’t know, and neither do you, so you can’t use it as a point for your side in the debate, because we don’t know…

My point was on people making Absolute statements based on casual observation, rather than research and fact finding…

I already said, I’m not disputing the accuracy of your observations…

It’s the application of the “small sample size” you constantly laud others for using as evidence to prove a point that spans decades…

Be fair in your arguments, and logical…

A child may answer 4 when asked what 2 + 2 is, which is great…

But if that same child answers 4 when you ask what their favourite colour is, you may begin to suspect the answer just happen to fit the appropriate question…

Just because you got the right answer doesn’t mean you got there the right way…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its funny

You startedout disagreeing with me regarding my position on Sabonis. I gave you my points/arguments, you haven’t been able to refute my position and now your saying you agree with me… but I’m not forming logical arguments. LOL

So I’m just going to smile and back away from this discussion Mikthaniel because I think you need some time to think this through…

by MAS11 on May 27, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

MAS, find ONE thing I said, from the very beginning that disagreed with you...ONE

The discussion started when I asked someone else, not even you, about how someone comes to make such bold, definitive statements based on conjecture alone…

You obviously sensed that you had done this and entered into defense mode…

To which I simply asked you to make sense of yourself…

If you got upset along the way because you feel ridiculous for not making sense, that doesn’t mean I disagreed with you…

It just means you weren’t making sense…

THE ONLY COMMENT I MADE REGARDING SABONIS’ TALENT:

If his prime years had been in the NBA where more casual viewers would have seen, he would be heralded as one of the All Time Greats, no doubt about it

And this wasn’t said to you it was was my opinion to DW19…and it wasn’t even a comment about if he WAS one of the greatest Centers to play the game, it was that if he was widely seen by casual fans in his prime, he would have been heralded as one of the greats…

Which you just agreed with, and it was my very first comment, so who’s the one changing their story because they can’t make logical points?

I’m glad you can sit back and smile, there is a reason for the expression “grinning like an idiot”…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, found ONE thing I said that disagrees with you...

And it’s because you were flat out wrong…

It’s a blatent falsehood and an unquestionable exaggeration to say that every player who COULD play in the NBA, IS playing in the NBA…

Not everybody that plays ball dreams of moving to a different HEMISPHERE to continue to play ball, just because they could…

But then you modified your quote, to saying the vast majority of NBA caliber players choose the NBA…

So, good for you, you can change…

"the Truth"

by Mikthaniel on May 27, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dirk

If the Mavs win a Championship (unlikely), he’d be #2 on this list.

by B.C. on May 26, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

and the sad thing is

you never got a real taste of what he could do. What you saw in Portland was basically a pylon version of Sabonis. You can still find some videos on youtube when he ate alive Robinson. I dare say he was physically as impressive as Shaq and 10 times the player Shaq ever was.

by renato on May 26, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

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