How Important is a Top 2 Pick for the Toronto Raptors?
How crucial is it for the Toronto Raptors to land a top two pick? The HQ looks at some draft history and breaks it down...
Kyrie Irving.
Derrick Williams.
Derrick Williams.
Kyrie Irving.
Slice it any way you want but since the 2011 top draft prospects started dropping like flies and heading back to their institutions of "higher learning," there really have been only two names that matter in this draft.
And if you land either Mr. Irving or Mr. Williams, the road for your NBA franchise suddenly becomes paved with gold right?
Right?
Well...maybe.
A recent SB Nation article examining draft picks did positively correlate being a top pick with the NBA's Rookie of the Year award. Here's the chart from said piece done by Tom Ziller:

As you can see, if you draft in the top 4, even 5 spots, you get a pretty sure thing in terms of success in the league the following season. In fact Ziller points out that 23 of the last 29 rookies of the year came from the top four picks, and 12 of those 29 were the top pick overall.
Going back to the Raps then, if they do land a Williams or Irving, chances are they end up with an impact player in year one.
But after that?
Well there's the "maybe."
Looking back at the NBA's rookie of the year award winners since 1991, there are no doubt some franchise players and Hall of Famers.
But there are also the likes of Emeka Okafor, Mike Miller, Steve Francis and Derrick Coleman.
Solid players yes, but the best players from their respective draft classes when all was said and done? Not so much. Those titles would belong to Dwight Howard, Jamal Crawford, Manu Ginobili and Gary Payton.
Linking back to the Toronto Raptors then, history shows that a top two pick would indeed give Toronto a very solid piece in their overall puzzle. But it doesn't guarantee someone who changes the course of your franchise, hence the "maybe." Rookies of the year are great, but as noted, that award is more of a first-year gauge then long-term success marker.
Let's throw another wrench into things.
As we've seen in the past, a draft's overall strength can vary quite largely from year to year.
The 1996 draft, my favourite of all time, was loaded thanks to a perfect combination of talented college players, still-eligible high school studs, and a still-unmined batch of European youngsters. As a result, college stars like Allen Iverson, Marcus Camby and Ray Allen were no-brainers as picks, but lesser known prospects like high schooler Kobe Bryant, and international picks like Peja Stojakovic and Zydrunas Ilgauskas also gave teams great building blocks.
In contrast, the 2000 draft is one of the worst, if not THE worst draft of all time.
Names like Stromile Swift, Darius Miles, Chris Mihm and Marcus Fizer were called early in the lottery and the entire draft class has only produced a total of three All-Star appearances.
So really it's all relative.
A top two pick for the Raptors this year might provide the team with the best of what's in reality a mediocre group of prospects, so in that sense, one could argue that in some draft years, getting one of those top spots isn't as important.
However the overall level of talent from draft to draft is beyond a team's control and you simply have to do the best job with what's in front of you. History shows that beyond Rookie of the Year, a top pick, or even a top two pick, vastly out-performs his draft counterparts over the course of his career. ESPN.com a couple years back took a statistical look at this in what they termed their "D.R.A.F.T. Initiative," and discovered that the number one pick had an "Estimated Wins Average" of nearly 10 wins. Estimated Wins Average, or EWA, is a metric developed by John Hollinger which looks at "how many wins a player adds to his team's record compared to someone you could sign to a 10-day contract" (ie - a replacement-level player). "Basically, the metric combines player efficiency rating (how efficient a player is on a per-minute basis) with playing time and comparative value."
The second overall pick in that same study had an EWA of 6.4 so again, another pretty strong future contributor.
Sure, the top two picks could end up being Kwame Brown and Danny Ferry (historically low EWA scores at these draft spots), but overall, the facts are as follows; grab a top two spot and you're getting the cream of the crop prospect-wise.
For the Raptors, this means there's good reason to have the names Kyrie Irving and Derrick Williams looping over and over. The consensus top two have the best chance at not only being impact players and ROY candidates in year one, but also the best players from their draft classes and impact prospects for the teams that get a hold of them.
I'd argue then that for this reason, it's quite important to get into those top two spots come next Tuesday.
That being said, the same study by ESPN.com showed that there's not much difference in terms of average wins between the second pick (EWA of 6.4) and the next three picks, with EWA's of 6.2, 6.1 and 6.1.
Of course on a yearly basis that can differ quite a bit, but history has revealed that if you're drafting in that top five spot, you've got a great shot at a very good player.
This year could be a great example of this in fact as while Derrick Williams looks pretty good based on his college career, no one originally was touting him as the second coming of LeBron James. In fact some of the mystery European prospects could end up becoming better NBA players than Williams when all is said and done, so I'm not sure it's the end of the world should the Raptors stay in the third spot, or even drop a position or two.
To me, getting a top two pick is the "safer bet" certainly, but I won't be jumping off a bridge should the Raptors' logo emerge from the fifth, fourth or third-place envelope next Tuesday.
However there is one scenario I'd really like to avoid.
While very unlikely, it's possible that three teams leap-frog the Raptors, Cavs and Wolves pushing these clubs into the sixth, fifth and fourth draft spots respectively. It happened in 2007 where the Celtics, Bucks and Grizzlies had the best shots at the top pick and none finished in the top three.
Why do I desperately want the DInos to avoid such a scenario?
Because history shows that the drop-off between the fifth and sixth pick is akin to taking a step out of an airplane at 50,000 feet.
As noted, ESPN.com's D.R.A.F.T. initiative showed that the fifth pick historically had an EWA of 6.1.
The sixth pick historically has an EWA of 1.9.
Go through the names and you'll see that there are a lot more Dajuan Wagner's taken at six than Brandon Roy's.
Again, this doesn't mean for certain that Toronto can't get the best player out of the draft at 6 when all is said and done should this scenario unfold. In 1997 the team grabbed Tracy McGrady outside of the top 5 in a draft that after Tim Duncan, had very little to offer.
History isn't on the team's side though so if I'm Bryan Colangelo, I'm crossing my fingers that when those top two envelopes are opened next Tuesday night, that smiling Raptor emerges from one of them.
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Graph
Can you guys let me know if it’s displaying? Looks fine in Safari but here at work in Explorer it looks broken.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Firefox, too – no graph. I just looked at the linked article.
by dhackett1565 on May 12, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Should be fixed now…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on May 12, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I prefer pie charts .... thats my first overall pick
bar charts are second
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
I Prefer Candlestick Charts
Particularly those in an upward trendline.
Hard to argue....
….that a top 2 pick would be way better than 3 through 6. If Kanter’s knees are fine then he might be a third guy who could contribute right off the bat.
Enough with the player comparisons.....
….I know everyone loves and also loathes player comparisons. Here is one more log to throw on that fire. For me Derrick Williams play in the tournament was a bit reminiscent of Carmelo Anthony. Anthony was a scoring PF in college who has become a scoring SF in the pros. I wouldn’t say their games match up 100%, but they are pretty comparable. While lots of “tweeners” don’t make the transition successfully from college to the pros, some do and Melo (advanced stats aside) is one of them.
+1
That’s why its so important to get into the top two. It may be the difference between picking a guy who has a chance to be the next Carmelo Anthony or a guy that might, in the best case scenario, be the next Nicolas Batum or Andris Biedrens…
Not a Kanter fan?
Not feeling it for Kanter? If his knees are solid, I think he could solve the Raptors “Alabi” conundrum and that would be valuable. I think I am also more optimistic than you are about Valanciunas (aka Bierdens II with better length and defensive awareness). If he is the real deal(a big if, I guess) it would be great to have a centre with that kind of aggressiveness, length, energy and judicious shot selection.
I agree with you about the other 5-6 range selections like Vesely, Biyombo and K. Walker. They don’t excite me much either.
LOL, this “Alabi” things has legs…
I’m wary of Kanter as the only data we have on him is a year old and against highschool aged players… Not saying he won’t be good, but I’m skeptical. As for Valanciunas, not sure how he has better length than Bierdrens when Biedrens is listed as 7ft and Valanciunas is 6’11. Again,the data we have on him (as with all international players) is somewhat suspect as its difficult to rate the competition he’s playing against (that I would argue is substantially less challanging than the competition in the NCAA and US highschools for the younger prospects).
I guess I’m just finding it difficult to get excited about drafting outside of the top two as this is such a weak draft. Maybe the weakest ever!
I think this draft is comparable to 2006 where you have good players like Gay, Aldridge, Roy, but then lots of guys who have yet to impress like Bargnani and Foye and then guys who don’t look like they will ever do anything like Morrison. What you didn’t have in 2006 and what you probably don’t have this time around are any real superstar calibre player and the depth of potential star players is shallow as well. However, I agree with Franchise that 2000 is going to be hard for any draft to ever beat in terms of sheer awfulness. I mean Hedo Turkoglu is a contender for best player to come out of that draft for crying out loud! ;)
Valanciunas is supposed to have an excellent wingspan and standing reach. I guess we will find out when they do the official pre-draft measurements. Maybe I am wrong that he has more length than Bierdens. We’ll see.
As far as competition, I think succeeding in the Euroleague is as good as succeeding the NCAA tournament. I don’t know how good his local league is, but the Euroleague puts him up against tough competition.
Some Quickies From Watching Him Play Three Games
The Good
===
1. He is tall
2. He is long
3. He plays hard
4. He rolls hard to the basket
5. Nice touch around the rim
6. Sets good screens
7. Spaces the floor nicely on offense
8. Very Good Hands
9. Since he rolls to the basket well and can catch and score at the rim he takes players with him when the rolls leaving room for outside shooters to get a more open shot. Very similar to Amir on this.
10. Does a decent job blocking out on rebounds
11. Better rebounder than Bargnani but I think that is due to his willingness to play a lot around the basket.
12. Has a frame that looks like it could definitely fill out some
13. Still very young. I think he is still only 18
The Bad
==
1. A Foul Machine
2. A skinny foul machine
3. Slow to react on defense
4. Tends to get lost on defense too often
5. I have watched three or four of his games and I can’t recall ever seeing him shoot from beyond 3 feet. In fact I have seen him pass up open eight foot shots in the lane and pass the ball
6. No left hand at all. He has a left hand of course but he never shoots with it.
7. Not the best form on his foul shooting
8. Doesn’t jump all that great but his height and long arms help compensate somewhat for this.
9. A project
The Ugly
====
1. His haircut unless you are a fan of the 1950’s crew cut look. LOL
Haircut is SOLID…puts Hoffa to shame.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on May 12, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve thought about a comparison to Carmelo, and while it sounds like a good thing, it makes me leery. Carmelo is definitely a great talent, but outside of scoring, he really doesn’t bring much to the team. He’s only been able to lead his team out of the first round once, and that’s when Billups came to Denver, and Denver actually improved after he left.
I’m really not a fan of one dimensional scorers and while I’m not saying that’s what Williams will be, I am worried that might end up being his fate. Kanter, at least, seems to bring more to the table.
Quite frankly, I usually have a stronger opinion about players by this time and the fact that I’m pretty wishy-washy about a lot of them probably says something about this draft.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Just a couple of comments...
“…but outside of scoring, he really doesn’t bring much to the team.”
Just to be fair, ‘Melo is a pretty decent rebounder, and does a decent job of drawing fouls. Also, Melo’s inability to get out of the first round probably has a lot to do with his team playing in the stacked West for all those years. However, he doesn’t really defend… So there’s that.
“…the fact that I’m pretty wishy-washy about a lot of them probably says something about this draft.”
Amen, couldn’t agree more….
Not the End of the World
Other than maybe getting number 1, none of these guys are that great sounding anyway. I don’t think its the end of the world if we get a top 5 instead of top 2. Besides I am kind of interested in Kanter, so top 3 is good in my books.
Here is the latest on Enes
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/05/nba-pre-draft-tour-enes-kanter-workout/
Looks like he lost some weight. I’m not feeling all the long distance shooting in the video. His size doesn’t stand out either but I remain a fan for now.
I Loved That Video
Man I am looking at that Video and I am seeing a slightly taller version of Blake Griffin with maybe 75% – 80% of the hops.
1. From the back he looks like Blake
2. He moves the same way as Blake
3. He shoots the same way as Blake including bank shots. Kanter has a great release and follow thru on his jump shots. Great ball rotation when the ball comes off his fingers.
4. He has the same type of body as Blake. Though Blake is a bit more muscular at this point and is about 2 years older 21 vs 19 (Kanter will become 19 a bit later this month)
It was so weird watching that.
The hell with Irving or Williams I want Kanter. LOL
Wow
Blake Griffin!?! Let’s slow down a bit here…
Plus, I had to laugh when watching this as it reminded me of the grainy video that was leaked from China where Yi Jillian was absolutely destroying the folding chair that was “guarding” him! Leading to Bill Simmons giving him the classic nickname “The Chairman”. LOL
I agree – you can’t put too much weight into an individual training session. However, it is promising that he is working out with Grover – a good sign that he will at the least be strong enough when the season rolls around.
by dhackett1565 on May 12, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Actuallly I Don't Agree At All On What You Can Get Out of Video Like This.
You can see
1. How they move on the floor. Are they fluid, clunky or grease bolt lightning quick?
2. If they can jump
3. What kind of shooting touch including release and follow through do they have on their shot.
4. Whether they can use both hands around the basket. Kanter can
Clearly you can see a lot more in a scrimmage or even a lot more in an actual game, but you can still see important things like I listed above from this kind of video.
Sure, you can tell if he's a corpse or actually alive...
… but other than that, you have to take these work out videos with a grain of salt. Like I said, there was talk (silly talk of course) of Yi Jianlian going in the top 3 of his draft based almost soley on the video of him posting up a folding chair…
I Think You Really Don't Understand
Anyone, including myself can write anything they want. Each reader believes whoever they want.
Yi doesn’t look like a Blake Griffin. Geez.
You are lost in your definition “he looks like”
It sure as heck ain’t my definition.
For me and most people when a person says that someone looks like someone else it is just a sense that you get when you see someone that they remind you of someone else. That is as plain as I can put it.
No I am not saying Kanter will be as good as Blake but then I am not saying that he won’t. I don’t have enough game material to go on.
I do know this that I saw the highlights of the Nike game that Kanter played in two years ago. I know that he scored 34 points in the Nike game, which is for highly ranked incoming NCAA freshmen. I now that Kaner’s 34 points broke Dirk’s record for that game. I also saw him pound the boards and get real physical and aggressive. That is all I can comment on regarding his game.
However when I saw him moving around on a court and throwing up some shots like in that video he reminded me of Blake. If you can’t understand what that means then I can’t help you any further. in understanding what I am trying to say.
Question
When you are comparing Kanter and Griffin you are talking about things like shooting mechanics and ball handling, right? You don’t mean to say that Kanter has the same kind of athleticism as Griffin does do you? That would be pretty surprising to me if that was what you meant.
I Am Saying
that when I see Kanter in a video like this he reminds me of Blake when I have seen Blake in a video like this.
That is all. Lets not make a big deal out of this. Geez.
Not trying to give you a hard time here. I am genuinely curious.
I think of Griffin as a bit of an athletic freak with his quickness, hops, strength, etc. He’s also got good fundamentals and basketball IQ.
I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that Kanter is a big strong guy as well, I just didn’t realize he was so quick and athletic(if that is what you meant with the comparison). Or maybe you are just saying that he plays the game in a similar way.
Woh
“No I am not saying Kanter will be as good as Blake but then I am not saying that he won’t. I don’t have enough game material to go on.”
That’s all I was trying to say bother… Just don’t want us to get to far ahead of ourselves based on a work out tape.. That’s all. Tamp down…
Don't You Get Excited About Non Game Related Stuff?
Not getting ahead of anything.
It was a spontaneous reaction to the video.
To tell the truth I was actually more excited by the reminder of Blake than I was about Kanter. After my eyes caught the physical comparison at the beginning of the video I was tuned into Blake and what I saw Kanter do on the court in that video kept reminding me of Blake.
Probably some unconscious sixth sense thing going on.
I agree with Buddahfan. While you shouldn’t make any decisions based on a video like this, there are a lot of things you can tell about it. For example, even in an arena like this, a guy like Oden would have (and did) appear not exactly fluid, which should have been a warning bell. Kanter looks like an athlete. Probably a better one than advertised.
Other things I noticed were that he’s got very good mechanics on his shot, although he brings the ball down on his shot, which he’s going to have to work on or else he’ll constantly get it stripped. He’s very mobile, but not very explosive, which isn’t a big problem, especially considering he looks strong.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Another guy that fits that description is Tim Duncan. He is big, but not huge like Shaq/Dwight. He is fluid and quick, but not explosive. The thing with Duncan is that he has a sky-high BBall IQ, super-developed skills, excellent defensive discipline and ice water in his veins. Kanter is obviously not the second coming of Duncan, but it sounds like their physical tools might be similar.
Yes. Good physical comparison. Duncan is a little longer than Kanter, though I think. Of course, Kanter is nothing like the shotblocker Duncan is. The good thing is that Kanter apparently has a very high basketball IQ, which should help.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Wow...
First Griffin, now Duncan… I’m at a loss here folks. Hey, I hope you guys are right!
You’re misunderstanding the comparison. We’re not saying that Kanter is similar to Duncan in any way other than physically. Kanter is fluid and mobile, but not explosive, but that’s okay because Tim Duncan is a Hall of Fame player, yet is not an explosive big man. Kanter’s high basketball IQ will help him get along in a league with a lot of explosive big man.
I notice that as soon as you bring up one player’s name in a sentence with another some people automatically assume you are say they are the next [player].
Let me make this clear. Skill-wise, Kanter is nothing like Tim Duncan.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
For that matter “Alabi” might be as good an athlete as Duncan, perhaps better. However, when it comes to bball IQ, of course that is a whole other story.
Let’s just be clear that DW19 is NOT saying that Alabi is the next TIm Duncan, either. He’s the next Patrick Ewing.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
KANTER WILL COME INTO THE LEAGUE AND CRUSH ALL OPPOSITION MAKING BLAKE GRIFFIN LOOK LIKE PETER GRIFFIN WHILE REPLACING TIM DUNCAN AS THE BEST POWER FORWARD OF ALL TIME!!!
It had to be said.
This is good. If raptors stay at 3 spot then minny or whoever would be stupid not to take the next ewing, duncan, griffin. So we get irving or williams for sure! LOL
Thankfully, the Raptors already have the next Ewing in Alabi.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Are Are Things At Raptors Republic?
Are the posters there still salivating over Bargnani, Reggie, Orton and Bradley?
Things got a lot worse there for a while, but the knuckleheads mostly have left for browner pastures.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
I Didn't Say He Was Blake Griffin
I said he reminded me of Blake.
Go to the webpage that the video is on, read the comments and you will see that I am not the only one who thinks this. Though one poster said that Kanter reminded him of Big Z. LOL
Remember I have watched every game that Blake has played as a Clipper. I have watched his TV stuff like “Blake’s Take” etc.
Kanter definitely reminds me of Blake. It not just the body build which is a big part of it. It is also the way they move around on the court and the way that they shoot jump shots.
Look its the same thing as when you see a women on the street and you think to yourself that she reminds you of a special lady in your life, present or past. It doesn’t me that these woman are as beautiful or sexy as as that special woman in your life. They just remind you of her.
The problem with Enes in that video
is he doesn’t look like a center. He looks like a typical PF but certainly not a tough center who will play hard down low and bang with the best bigs in the NBA. We have a lot of PFs, we really don’t need another athletic one.
I was hoping he’s be big, heavy, tough and looking to play down in the blocks, not slim, athletic with a good jump shot. I’m looking forward to his work outs to see what teams think his ideal position will be, PF or C.
Once we get the lottery positioning decided on Tuesday, we’re going to start a series of profiles on some of these mystery bigs from overseas. Right now there’s not a ton to go on for many of them outside the Draftexpress profiles…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on May 12, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
What Does A Center Look Like?
Seriously prey tell me what a center looks like?
Tall and taller?
Does Nene look like a center to you?
It is not about a Cnter anyway. The question is could Kanter and Amir or Davis protect the paint, rebound, set screens and score in the paint and even from a little further away? That is the question.
We don’t have enough information on that at this time about Kanter and Ed. Davis still has a long way to go before he becomes a solid all around defender. Amir is what he is though I do expect him to continue to add muscle and core strength and maybe even develop more of an inside game as he gets stronger.
+1
“The question is could Kanter and Amir or Davis protect the paint, rebound, set screens and score in the paint and even from a little further away? That is the question.”
I agree, that is exactly the question that I would want to know the answer to about Kanter. I have faith that he could contribute on offense. Can he get the job done at the other end working with the other Raptors bigs?
Buddahfan
I’m not writting Kanter off as a PF and not C but I think you answered your own question. Nene is a big that plays like a center yes, but Bargnani is also a big who shoots a lot of jump shots and doesn’t play like a center. There is no particular look I guess but my statement was based on what I saw in the video. That’s y i said i’m looking forward to workouts to see what the nba coaches think his position will be. The video was all abt him shooting and showing off athleticism which is a gross duplication of the type of bigs we already have. From the video, which isn’t much at all to draw a conclusion from, he doesn’t look “centerish”.
wait
let me clarify my last statement. In the video Kanter doesn’t look “centerish” in terms of the type of center the raptors need. We don’t need another jump shooting center who isn’t physically strong enough to keep up with the others in the NBA. Having said that, the video tells us nothing about his ability to defend, play the low post or really anything other than having a nice stroke from the perimeter. Therefore I reserve judgement on Kanter until draft workouts.
Not Physically Strong Enough?
Watch this highlight of him at the Nike game last year.
Actually I stand corrected the game was last year not two years ago. When you see the video you will also see Sullinger out there.
Enes Kanter 2010 Nike Hoop Summit highlights
I really don’t understand how you can say he’s not physically strong enough. The guy is 18 years old and already has an NBA body.
As for the video, if you’re going just on that, I completely agree, but I assume that’s not all you’ve seen of him. I’ve seen the Hoop Summit game, that Buddahfan linked to, and most of another game, and I can tell you he’s a very strong post up presence that also has the ability to hit the jumper.
One thing I don’t entirely agree with, though, is that the Raptors don’t need another jumpshooting center. Now, I agree they don’t need one that doesn’t play defense or rebound, but with Davis and Amir not great scorers, especially from beyond 5 feet, having a center who can step out and hit jumpers would be a great advantage, and prevent teams from packing the paint. Amir, especially, can hit the 15 footer with some accuracy, and Davis seems to be improving in that area, but it’s only a plus if your center can hit from outside, as long as he does all the other dirty work.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Very true
Being able to hit a jumper is a very useful skill as long as you can do other things, too.
saw the hoop summit game and u tube highlights of the game
and yes he dominated, and yes he’s only 18 so his body is actually impressive for that age. looking forward to workouts to see what the feedback is.
Who is a Center??
Amare Stoudemire is picked as a 2nd team ALL NBA Center, and Al Horford is the 3rd team pick, both behind Howard, as 1st team, and defensive player of the year.
Yeah, if Kanter was more a PF than a C then I would be a lot less interested in him, too. I am talking style of play and attitude more than anything here. Kanter might be a little shorter than some centres, but if he is strong, physical and most importantly if he has the mentality of a centre (controlling the paint, helping on D, etc….) then that would be a big upgrade to the Raptors current situation.
I Believe It Is "Estimasted Wins Added" and not "Estimated Wins Average:
though its understandable how you could have replaced Added with Average
2010-2011 Hollinger NBA Player Statistics – All Players
Bargnani was actually #1 for the Raptors in EWA this season
Top 5
Bargnani 6.9 – Tied for 67th in NBA
DeRozan 5.7 – Tied for 89th in NBA
Amir 5.7 – See DeRozan
Calderon 5.6 – 91st in NBA
Davis 3.5 – Tied for 129th in NBA – Good number despite somewhat limited minutes for the season
Reggie’s EWA was .4 and ranked him tied for 247th best in the NBA
I don’t think that the EWA puts too much value on defense..
Hollinger’s stats are typically like that. Generally speaks with his self created stats there is an overemphasis on volume production on offense though he does give some weight to efficacy.
Raptors Starters EWA ranking by position
PF – Amir – 22nd
Center – Baragnani – 14th
SF – James Johnson – Tied for 38th
SG – DeRozan – 16th
PG – Calderon 23rd
Average EWA Ranking of the Starters 113/5 = 23
So according to Hollinger the Raptors starters had a combined average better than their final place in the standings which was 27th
You can see that the top two Raptors players ranking for their respective positions among the Raptors five starters; i.e. Bargnani 14th and DeRozan 16th scored the most points per game. Again showing how Hollinger’s numbers both over emphasize volume scoring and under emphasize defense.
Aaaaah – yep, you’re right Buddahfan. I was talking about AVERAGE Estimated Wins Added and started writing Estimated Wins Average instead, good catch.
Interesting EWA’s for the Raps, and I think your last point is bang on; EWA is still like PER in that it places too much importance on the offensive side of the ball.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on May 12, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
not to important this draft doesn’t have any franchise level talent , kyrie and williams are good players but not top level if we get any other pick outside top 2 then we should definitely trade it
by raptors_run_the_show on May 12, 2011 9:22 PM EDT reply actions
For what? If this draft is so empty, what would any other team give up for a pick?
by dhackett1565 on May 12, 2011 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Few things:
just a bit of nitpicking by me so feel free to ignore and no offense intended towards anyone…
Idea of “tweener”. Is not simply a guy thats 6’9"(ish). That is legit SF size. I’ve heard a few people over the last week or so put players such as Lebron, Carmelo, Durant in the ‘tweener’ category. A tweener is a guy that does not have quite the size (both bulk and height) to play PF+, or the ball handling skills/shooting skills/speed to be a SF-. Once a guy has shown he has the capacity to do one or the other, the term tweener should be thrown out the window. I will also say that the players listed above were never really considered ‘tweeners’ coming out of school.
A tweener (atleast in my books) are the Carl Landrys, Big Babies of the league. (and just to be clear it doesn’t mean they can’t contribute to a team… but rather they will always be at a disadvantage due to the majority of other players at said position will have a size or quickness advantage against them)
“Seriously prey tell me what a center looks like”
generally speaking… approx. 7ft tall with enough strength to keep a guy off the blocks and maintain position. Height may end up being relative, but strength (toughness) is not. Almost all C’s that are successful in the league and that are “undersized” have superior strength for their size. I’m also trying to remember the last time their was a skinny C who’s teams were successful. Even a guy like Camby hasn’t help lead his teams very far. I’d also mention that strength generally only limits them to being good man defenders… usually their teams tend to be inferior team defenders due to their inability to challenge shots. Not that height = defense, I think we all know this, but its difficult to have good defense without height. There are ofcourse exceptions, such as Ben Wallace. However, this was more or less due to his near superhuman strength and athleticism that made up for his height. And the number of players that fit into this exception are few and far between.
Comparing players using training video. Yes you can get a general idea of their hand eye, athleticism, shooting style/ability, quickness etc. But that is all meaningless when they step on the court. As mentioned, what made a guy like Duncan great, was not his raw talent.. but rather his head. Even guys who a generally seen as great physical specimens… Dwight, Shaq etc…. still had the mental make up to 1) use their skills effectively 2) work within a system 3) know what their limitations were. Honestly, if Dwight Howard at any point in time felt he should have also been a jump shooter… well, lets just say he’d be sitting next to Joey Dorsey right now. Now I know you guys know this…. so what’s my point? Well you are just aswell off using Rasho as you are Duncan for a physical comparison. But once you mention that a player looks like Duncan you can’t seperate true talent from physical ability.
Yes he may look like Duncan. But why aren’t we using more realistic comparisons like Rasho?
Sorry for a lot of writing for some things that are really unimportant (and also not finite). Guess I need more coffee.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 13, 2011 10:18 AM EDT reply actions
Rasho Does Not Look Like Duncan
You contradict yourself in your post.
First you say that it is the ability to challenge shots that makes a good center on defense. Then you say it is a player’s smarts that makes a player good. You also throw something in about strength.
I might miss a few but here are what I consider the ingredients that go into making a big man a good interior defender.
1. Play hard on defense
2. Be able to read offensive plays and react quickly to them including giving above average help defense.
3. Understand angles
4. Understand spacing
5. Willingness to get physical in the paint to the point of enjoying it.
6. Good hands
7. Ability and willingness to take a charge
8. No one scores at the rim on my watch mentality
9. Communicate with teammates on defense
10. Superior strength
11. Intimidation factor through being able to block or alter shots and willingness to give a hard foul.
12. Lateral quickness
“Rasho Does Not Look Like Duncan”
physically? I think so. Obviously the results are much different. But Rasho is similar height, build, ball handling, passing and shooting skills. (I will say he is not quite as quick) Anyways, everyone will see ‘similar’ differently.
“You contradict yourself in your post.
First you say that it is the ability to challenge shots that makes a good center on defense. Then you say it is a player’s smarts that makes a player good. You also throw something in about strength."
Where? I never said that the ability to challenge shots makes a good center on D. What I said was that the inability to challenge shots usually makes the teams defense worse. I never said that blocking or challenging shots makes some one good, or being unable to makes someone bad.
There is no one single attribute that = good defense. But missing anyone one attribute makes it tougher to be a good defender.
And ofcourse a player’s mental make up plays a huge role in this… I never stated to the contrary. Whats important is a player’s willingness to play within his role. Guys like Duncan take that to a different level because their basketball sense/IQ is off the charts.
I’d also mention that I think strength (or toughness may be a better descriptor… so not just the ability to do it, but also the willingness to play ‘strong’) is the singular most important aspect of a player being able to defend the C (but again not limiting). Like I said, I can’t think of a single player who played the C that was not strong (enough) to defend there, and who’s team have gone far. Its also the main reason why guys who are undersized can be successful at playing the C… that is, they are strong enough to keep guys off the blocks, or out of their comfort zone, box them out, and get into their own comfort zone etc.
Again I’m not limiting anything to a singular rule that someone HAS to fit into X or Y category. But I still think you can fit players into a general category, because the vast majority of players who are successful tend to fit into those same categories. So yes, you don’t NEED to be 7ft and 250lbs+ to be a good C. And yes you CAN be 7ft and 250lbs+ and still be a bad C…. but I’m sure as hell gonna look for a 7ft 250lber if I need a C, long before I decide on something else.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 13, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Beyond their physical measurements(height & weight) I don’t see many physical similarities between Duncan and Rasho. Duncan is/was more mobile, more nimble and stronger. Rasho’s decent lower body and core strength(and weight) allowed him to fight for position in the post relatively well, but he never had the upper body development to fight through contact and finish in traffic. He also didn’t have the upper body strength to fight for tough rebounds, so he tended to concentrate on his box-outs(which is a pretty good fall back option). Defensively, Rasho didn’t get in good position through quick lateral movement he did it by being smart and anticipating the play.
The one area where I’d say they compare most closely is more on the mental side. They both understood their own abilities and how to get the most out of them.
Blake Griffin Pre-Daft Work Out Video and Enes Kanter Pre-Draft Work Out Video
Okay
There are two videos here. Both Pre-Draft Workout Videos. In Kanters Slam workout video he reminded me of Blake in Blakes DraftExpress workout video and other workout videos that I have seen of Blake. Other than the notable difference in “hops” Blake has has a more developed use of his left hand and better overall ball handling skills. But overall in watching Kanter’s workout video on Slam Kanter just reminded me of Blake.
In the Nike Summit game highlights which I have already posted on this thread Kanter reminded me of Al Horford.
DraftExpress Exclusive: Blake Griffin Private Workout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY_FsF7Kw70&feature=related
Video: Enes Kanter Workout
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/05/nba-pre-draft-tour-enes-kanter-workout/
LOL
Antother fantastic workout video that had Yi Jilian in the top 5 in the lottery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyADXpenxzU
The uninetntional commedy in this is off the charts!
Question
Do you have a lady friend you can talk to about this subject?
Yi workout video. RFLMAO
Unfortunately You Are Not
because you are still clueless about my comparison.
Talk to a women about this. She will set you straight, provided you listen to her. LOL
Mas
is making a valid point.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on May 13, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Put it this way
Pretend we don’t know what we know now – that Yi Jianlian was a bust. Put his work out video beside Kanter’s work out video and tell me that you can tell, beyond a shadow of a doubt that one player would be better than the other. That’s the only point I’m making here. Work out videos are next to irrelvevant. And to start throwing names around like Griffin and Duncan is a bit pre-mature. I get that people are not saying “he will be the next Duncan!”, fair enough. Just saying that it’s tough to take comparisons to know commodities seriously when you’re comparing a completely unknown commodity.
The point of making such comparisons is not to say how good a player will become it is to get a mental picture of what they look like, how is their style of play and things like that. It is when people start taking any given comparison out of context that things go off the rails.
Do You Have Some Fascination With Yi?
Seriously.
What is it about Yi that so intrigues you?
His charity work off the court?
When you watch that work out video of Yi two things struck me
1. Not much muscle on his body
2. His bad jump shot.
The release on his jump shot was bad. Why, because his shooting arm is almost fully extended and not bent at the elbow. This means that he shoots his jump shots entirely from the wrist up. When your shooting elbow is bent you also use your arm in your shot which allows for a proper follow through.
Bottom line is. When I look at the video I say that kid is a first round pick but certainly not a lottery pick. I have no idea of what the Bucks saw in him. Probably the same thing that they saw in Alexander. LOL
“Do you have some fascination with Yi”
Dude, either you’re dense or choosing to ignore the point I’m making. The only point I’m trying to emphasise by pointing to the Yi example is that often, when there is a lack of data on a player, something next to irrelevant (like, say a workout video) can be given more credence than it deserves. This is exactly what happened in the Yi case. He came from China, there was limited data on him versus REAL competition so scouts were left with workouts and workout videos. He ended up being selected way to high. Just a cautionary tale for us fans before we start getting ahead of ourselves after watching a workout video of Kanter. Don’t understand why this is so difficult to concede…
Ive never agreed with MAS
but he does make a valid point. Private workout videos can be deceiving. They only put good clips and never the bad. Its a way to hype the players. I understand Kanter does look like a pretty good player, he looks pretty strong and athletic, characteristics that intrigue me. But comparing him to other players is, what MAS mentions IS premature, especially since we havent seen much of Kanter play. sure hes got the physical tools that are comparable to blake griffen and is athletic as well, but thats about it. you can analyze his shot mechanics, dunks, reaction to defense all you want in a private workout VIDEO but its not much to take out of unitl you see him use those skills in competition. we need to see if uses those skills and actually translate his game to the nba. unfortuntately i havent watched much of kanter, so ill reserve judgement, but he does look to have qualities i like as well as the high praise from coaches and scouts that make me want him in a raps uniform. but idk.
Translating Into A Game
Kanter played for the Turkish under-18 national team in 2009 and was named the championship’s MVP after averaging 18.6 points and a tournament-best 16.4 rebounds a game as Turkey won the bronze medal at the European Championships in France.
You don’t have to be a genius to connect the dots.
1. He has dominated in every league that he has played in his entire life.
2. He broke Dirk’s Nike Hoops Summit scoring record.
3. He was signed by Kentucky
4. He is only 18 and already is 6’11" and 255
5. He looked smooth in the video with excellent shooting mechanics.
I think people here are kind of turned off by the fact that he is from “Turkey”.
Other than being out five months with a knee injury before he signed with KY I have not read anything negative about his play on the court. I wouldn’t consider his actions that the NCAA penalized him for a show stopper.
I can understand people here being caution with another European player as a top #3 pick after how Bargnani has turned out. Maybe because I haven’t followed the Raptors closely for more than a couple of seasons during which time BC drafted DeMar and Ed so I don’t have that experience of being around when BC made a bad pick.
Actually You Are Not
I posted my comments above why when I saw that workout video of Yi I came away thinking middle to late first pick, nothing more.
See my comments above for the reasons
Bottom Line On Kanter, Irving and Williams IMO
In what little I have seen of Kanter and I will agree that the sample size is very very small I will go out on the limb and say that if the Raptors wind up with Kanter, Irving or Williams, Raptors management and fans will be very happy with the pick after next season.


























