If Not Colangelo Than Who? - The HQ Looks at GM Options for the Toronto Raptors
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2011 9:17 AM EDT
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PrintThe HQ looks at GM options for the Toronto Raptors and wonders if maybe standing pat isn't such a bad idea after all...
This article took me a long time to write.
I was planning on posting it yesterday morning, but the research involved took a lot longer than expected, so here we are today, Tuesday morning.
How long did it take to write?
Well in some ways, this whole thing started weeks ago as the Toronto Raptors were concluding a dismal 22 win season, and current Raptors' GM, Bryan Colangelo, had yet to be given a contract extension. At that point we debated Colangelo's future, and after he spoke to the media, debated it some more, along with presenting his "Raptors' Resume" shall we say.
And while I was going over BC's resume, I began combing through other data regarding his tenure, and possible replacements should he be given the boot.
Because really, there are only three possibilities here, ones we presented in Sunday's HQ Poll:
1) The team extends him for another 5 years.
2) The team extends him for a shorter time period as a bit of "prove to us you've still got it" play.
3) The team lets him go.
I guess the fourth option is that Colangelo resigns, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
So if options one and two mean keeping BC around, it's this third that I'd like to explore today, as this is the one that over the past 72 hours, had me looking up names like Troy Weaver and Sam Hinkie.
If the team does fire Bryan Colangelo, who replaces him?
We've heard the Wayne Embry rumours, which have since been refuted, but regardless, at some point a full-time GM will need to step in if BC goes, so who might that be, or better yet, who SHOULD that be?
Well, after a weekend of research, to be honest, I'm not sure.
Originally I thought that this process would point out some obvious candidates to take Colangelo's place, but I found they've been few and far between.
Why?
Well for starters, there just isn't much GM turnover.
Look at the top teams in the league this year.
Now go back to the 2004 - 2005 season and look.
Not much difference, aside from the Pistons, who probably aren't letting Joe Dumars go despite his recent woes, the Nets, who essentially swapped GM's with 76ers a year ago, and clubs like Sacramento and Phoenix, who have fallen on harder times of late.
Most of the league's great teams are consistently so, a statement backed up by the fact that there have been only eight different teams in the past 30 years who have been NBA champions.
Eight.
Some of the previous statement has to do with economics, market size and other functions of course, but keeping successful management in-house also goes a long way towards ensuring team success, and generally speaking, when looking at the past 10 years or so for this article, I noted that the top brass stays put for the most part.
In fact of the league's current 30 GM's, 21 of them have held their posts for four or more years, many, with the same team for tenures of eight years or longer.
As a result, there simply aren't many obvious choices as the top dogs are still with their same clubs (the RC Bufords and the Donnie Nelsons), and the executives who have had more success than failure, guys like Rod Thorn and Ernie Grunfeld, well they keep bouncing from team to team too.
There are two names though who did keep coming up time and time again; Mark Warkentien and Kevin Pritchard.
Pritchard of course is the man responsible for the Blazers' turnaround near the middle of the past decade, who was unceremoniously let go by Portland before the 2010 draft. During his tenure in Portland he showed a keen eye for identifying talent, grabbing late round draft picks like Rudy Fernandez and Dante Cunningham, while making bold top talent acquisitions that resulted in the likes of LaMarcus Aldridge and Brandon Roy.
Yes, he oversaw the Greg Oden decision, however it's hard to blame him for Oden's consistent health woes.
Pritchard is currently employed as a consultant to the Indiana Pacers (he played briefly with Larry Bird on the Celtics back in the day), but apparently there is no "official" relationship, and I'd be all for Toronto making a run at him.
I'd also be fine with the team making a run at Warkentien, the former GM of the Denver Nuggets who was the 2009 NBA Executive of the Year.
Warkentien did oversee the decision to bring Allen Iverson to Denver, but also quickly realized where he had erred, swapping him out for Chauncey Billups in a move that took the Nuggets from mediocre to contender over night. He also oversaw shrewd acquisitions like Aaron Afflalo and Chris Andersen.
Like Pritchard, Warkentien is currently employed as a consultant so not completely a free agent, however with the right financial incentive, I'm sure he'd be happy to part ways with the Knicks.
Both Pritchard and Warkentien ended up on many "Top GMs of the Decade" type lists, and really, are the only two executives who aren't running the show with an NBA club at present.
After these two, you've gotta dig a bit deeper, and it's while doing this digging that I noticed an interesting trend in terms of top NBA management; all roads lead through San Antonio, Houston and Portland.
The majority of names that might be of interest to Toronto all have had or have experience with these clubs, and all three have been strip-mined of talent of late.
Take Dennis Lindsey, the VP/Assistant GM of the San Antonio Spurs.
He joined the Spurs in 2007 after 11 seasons with...Houston.
Or Rob Hennigan, Assistant GM/Player Personnel for the Oklahoma City Thunder.
He was Director of Basketball Operations with...San Antonio and spent five years with the Spurs before joining OKC.
Even Warkentien worked for Portland for 10 seasons, eventually elevating to the title of Assistant GM.
If I was MLSE I'd give all three of these guys a look as well as Pritchard, however Hennigan is a name that looks especially intriguing. He's a bright young up-and-comer by all accounts who is extremely well-versed in the international game, one that seems to be of such importance to this market.
Other names to consider would include Houston Executive VP of Basketball Operations Sam Hinkie, the analytics guru for Darryl Morey and the Rockets, Troy Weaver, Assistant GM and Vice President of the Thunder, and Orlando Magic Assistant GM, Dave Twardzik.
Really, there's no shortage of names out there if MLSE wants to beat the bushes and execute a full-on search, it's just that the Pat Riley's and Jerry West's are few and far between.
In fact, let's look back at that Phoenix Suns club that's "fallen on harder times of late."
At one point Phoenix was a Western Conference juggernaut with only three sub-500 seasons from 1995 to 2006, one of those being a 40 and 42 club that still made the playoffs.
Nine playoff appearances in 11 years in a tough Western Conference?
Maybe the Raptors should make a play for whoever was running that show!
Oh wait.
They already have him.
Yep, Bryan Colangelo oversaw a very successful club in Arizona and if you tack on his first two years in Toronto, it's no wonder he was consistently voted as one of the league's top execs.
It's interesting really.
During my search for "the new Colangelo," the one thing that kept smacking me over the head was just how good BC had been.
Has he lost his touch?
Or can we attribute his recent image to simply a matter of sample size?
Because in reality Colangelo still has one of the best records of all GM's, especially those with eight or more years experience. I drew up a spreadsheet of the league's GM's and only the Kings Geoff Petrie has been running a team for as long as him currently, and BC's win percentage of .53 beats out the likes of Petrie, Thorn, King, Paxson and Bird.
Sure everyone wants the next Darryl Morey or Sam Presti.
However they've both been only doing this GM thing for four years, so have a much smaller sample size to work with. Colangelo has seen the highs and lows and maybe deserves a chance to bring back the highs here in Toronto.
Has he made some egregious decisions in the past that are deserving of a pink slip?
Yes.
But Colangelo also knows this franchise better than anyone else and has already started the rebuild process. I'd argue that while hiring someone like the aforementioned Hennigan or Pritchard makes a ton of sense as indeed a "fresh start," the time to pull the trigger on something like that is now.
It's your move MLSE.
You can keep the man with the proven track record, perhaps on a shorter leash so to speak, or you can hope to land the next Presti or Buford amongst some of the names we've gone through.
Either way, the decision needs to come asap.
The last three years for Raptors' fans haven't been great, but I'd argue there is something much worse here looming; an "in limbo" Colangelo feels slighted and takes his act somewhere else, leaving the Raptors with no plan B, C or D.
If that's the case, welcome to Minnesota East.
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Food for thought...
Great write-up Franchise. Lot’s to think about… It does appear that there are some viable alternatives to Colangelo going forward. Just wanted to re-post an earlier comment I made on another thread as food for thought while we fans are contemplating the future GM of this franchise
I give you, the “All-Colangelo Team”:
Starters
C – Andrea Bargnani
PF – Turkaglu (ya I’m playing him out of position, but he deserves it)
SF – Linas Kleiza
SG – Jason Kapono
Pg – Will Solomon
Bench
C- David Anderson
PF/C – Jermaine OiNeil’s corpse
PF – Nathan Jawai
SF – The Greek guy that was chosen in the second round that can’t even get minutes in Europe
SF – PJ Tucker (who? Ya that’s right…)
SG Marco Bellinelli
SG – Fred Jones (ya I went there!)
PG – TJ Ford’s corpse
PG- Marcus Banks
Yes, we need this type of continuity! Re-sign this guy, quick!!
ummm
You seem to have omitted:
- Demar Derozan
- Ed Davis
- Kris Humprhies (for Arujo)
- Amir Johnson / Sonny Weems (for Delfino)
- James Johnson (for the pick the Raps got back in the Bosh deal)
- etc.
The list was tongue-in-cheek and I was obviously simply highlighting some of the more puzzling manoeuvres by Colangelo. However, it’s important to note, these players are also players that Colangelo actively pursued and either signed as a free agents or traded for (with Jawai, the Greek guy and Tucker being the exception – they were added to exemplify the wasted 2nd round picks). That’s why they are the All-Colangelo team.
The moves you’ve noted are all fair examples of where BC didn’t entirely screw up. Fair enough. However I will mention that the DeRozan and Davis selections were arguably no brainers, as in they were the best options available to the Raps at the time, but to be fair, BC didn’t screw those up. The hump for Arujo deal was definitely a win as was the Johnson/Weems for Delfino deal. The jury’s still out on the JJ deal, but I for one like the move. So yes, BC has not screwed up every single decision point since he’s been here, no. But if you tally up the money given to the All-Colangelo team and the impact they’ve had on driving this franchise to where it rests now, the bad most certainly out weights the good.
One other point, most of the All-Colangelo team was either traded or removed from the team somehow within 24 months of joining the team (save for most notably Bargnani). Now, some argue that is one of BC’s strengths – the ability to correct his mistakes. However, for me this is another example of how Colangelo has impeded the progress of this franchise. He has spent way too much time cleaning up his own mess and not enough time building the franchise. These lateral and sometimes backwards moves have cost the team draft picks and any momentum towards building towards success.
Your list would have been a lot more effective if you’d left off the 2nd rounders. Every team in the league can put together a long list of useless pieces found in the second round.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Fine so remove the second rounders...
That’s still a pretty pathetic murderer’s row of "talent".
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
Derozan has not exactly blown everyone away with his play. His improvement last year can be attributed to more touches and playing time (much the same as Barney) he still has a long way to go before we can anoint him as a positive for BC.
Ed Davis – Decent, with room to grow. I will give you that one
Kris Humphries – Who he traded away for Turkoglu. Hmmmmmmmm.
Amir Johnson – he promptly overpaid him and I doubt Weems will be back
James Johnson – Really? I bet you would give Barney his contract based on half a season too. He has had exactly half of a season to play for the Raps and has looked okay but he is hardly a future stud for this team and is at best a backup swing.
Amir Johnson is NOT overpaid.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 27, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also
DeRozan has visibly improved his game from his first year. He now has a reliable midrange game and free throw shot, which he did not have last year. Obviously he still has improvements to make, especially on defense, but there’s no way you can say his improvement was strictly touches and playing time.
The Kris Humphries playing in NJ is not the same Kris Humphries who played in TO. There’s no way of knowing whether his transformation would have occurred in a Raptors uniform.
JJ could be a useful piece on this team next year. I agree that on a playoff team, he’s likely to be a backup 3, but he at least tried on defense and rebounding and actually has a jumper (which is where he’s got the advantage over Julian).
Let’s face it: Colangelo built a reputation on the back of Steve Nash. And it’s hard to believe Daddy didn’t play a large role in his early successes.
My issue with Colangelo is that he appears horribly out of touch with modern decision making in the NBA. He’s still trumpeting scoring average as the be all and end all with little regard for usage or efficiency. That’s why it’s taken him so long to wake up to the reality of Bargnani. And it’s why he lavished a massive contract on a player like Turkoglu who had been declining for at least a couple of seasons before landing in Toronto.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2011 10:12 AM EDT reply actions
Advanced stats are great and all that, but among the recent NBA champions which general manager was an advanced stats guru? Joe Dumars? Mike Kapchuk? Danny Ainge? Pat Riley? RC Buford? Unless you can provide convincing evidence, I would say the answer is “none of the above.”
Even if OKC wins this year, I could paraphrase the first sentence and say, “Let’s face it: Presti built a reputation on the back of Kevin Durant.”
Presti & Durant
True… to a point.
But Presti also “reached” to grab Russell Westbrook based on what I would assume was some pretty hardcore analysis.
Presti also traded a guy who was widely branded as overrated by the advanced stats community (Jeff Green) for Kendrick Perkins. That move also allowed both Ibaka and Harden to take significant leaps in terms of their on-court contributions.
Sure, he lucked out to get Durant. But surrounding one productive player with a bunch of scrubs gets you this season’s version of the Minnesota T-Wolves, not a championship contender.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummm, isn’t RC Buford pretty much the Godfather of advanced stats. Most of the advanced stats guys seems to have ties back to the Spurs organization.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Tomorrow’s post is going to touch on this but there’s really two key pieces involved in GM’ing a contending franchise; luck and insight. You need a certain degree of luck to get the Tim Duncan’s and LeBron Jameses, but you also need keen foresight, be it via advanced stats or a Ouija board, in order to correctly fill in the complementary pieces.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually isn’t that what is saddest about teams like Cleveland and Toronto? No matter how you spin it, neither city was able to build a championship team around those players. You can’t really call Cleveland lucky to have drafted Lebron because it resulted in 0 championships and a whole lot of heartache.
No, Cleveland was lucky
That they sucked horrendously and there happened to be a hugely dominant franchise player available in the following draft. Contrast that to how the Raptors sucked horrendously and they ended up with the #1 pick in one of the weakest drafts in NBA history.
I am not aware of that fact, but if it is true then that certainly strengthens your case. I don’t know what kind of advanced stats he used to determine which foreign ballers would succeed in the NBA. I will certainly concede that DeJuan Blair and George Hill were good finds that I am sure statistical analysis played a part in.
That’s 1 out of the 5 that I cited, so I still don’t feel that bad about my argument that advanced stats alone do not make a superstar GM.
You shouldn’t feel bad about your argument – it’s a solid argument. I just think some the superstar GMs you mentioned are explainable.
Dumars did a great job building a perennial contender, but it took a specific set of circumstances and luck (key injuries to opponents) to push those teams over the top. Otherwise, they were the NBA’s version of the Buffalo Bills. And his recent performance as a GM – signing unproductive players like Gordon and Charlie V to bloated contracts – kind of supports the idea that he might’ve been more lucky than good.
Kupchak has the benefit of running the premier franchise in the entire league.
Riley boasts the Lakers pedigree, a warm weather franchise in a desirable market AND zero state taxes in Florida.
Ainge was generally regarded as a clueless GM before his friend and former teammate agreed to trade him Garnett for pennies on the dollar. And his Kendrick Perkins-for-Jeff Green trade may have shut the window on Boston’s championship window while pushing OKC over the top.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Reasonable explanations, although it sounds like you believe factors other than advanced stats (i.e. luck, weather, prestige, low taxes and gullible friends) explain the success of these individuals.
Absolutely. I think advanced stats allow you to make informed decisions vs. blowing your cap space on overrated, unproductive players. There’s luck involved too – but sometimes you make your own luck.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
NBA Teams That Have Analytics Department
NBA Teams That Have Analytics Department
The list includes the NBA teams using advanced stats by either employing basketball analytics professionals or working with statistical consultants.
1 Boston Celtics:
Mike Zarren (Asst. Exec. Director of Basketball Operations), David B. Sparks (Statistical Intern)
2 Cleveland Cavaliers:
Dan Rosenbaum (Consultant), David Lewin (Basketball Operations Seasonal Assistant)
3 Dallas Mavericks:
Roland Beech, (Director of Basketball Analytics) Wayne Winston (formerly worked for Mavs)
4 Denver Nuggets:
Dean Oliver, (formerly worked for Nuggets as Director of Quantitative Analysis)
5 Houston Rockets:
Daryl Morey (General Manager), Sam Hinkie (Vice President of Basketball Operations),
Ed Kupfer (Consultant), Eli Witus (Basketball Operations Analyst), Monte McNair (Basketball Operations Analyst)
6 Indiana Pacers:
Kevin Pelton (Consultant)
7 Los Angeles Lakers:
Chris Bodaken (Director of Video Services), Trey Tomjanovich (Software Provider)
8 Memphis Grizzlies:
Aaron Barzilai (Quantitative Analyst)
9 Miami Heat:
Bob Chaikin (Basketball Analyst)
10 Milwaukee Bucks:
Jon Nichols (Basketball Analytics Intern)
11 New Jersey Nets:
Milton Lee (Director of Basketball Operations), Ken Catanella (formerly worked for Nets as Coordinator of Statistical Analysis)
12 Oklahoma City:
Benjamin C. Alamar (Senior Quantitative Analyst),
Jesse Weinstein-Gould (Basketball Information Coordinator), Keith Goldner (Statistical Analysis Intern)
13 Orlando Magic:
Charles Klask (Scouting Information Manager)
14 Phoenix Suns:
Steve Ilardi (Analytics Consultant)
15 Portland Trail Blazers:
Rich Cho (GM), Justin Kubatko (Consultant), Ben Falk (Basketball Analytics Manager),
Jeff Ma (Consultant), Ryan Parker (Intern)
16 San Antonio Spurs:
Gabe Farkas (Consultant)
17 Toronto Raptors:
Alex Rucker (Consultant), Keith Boyarsky (Consultant)
18 Washington Wizards:
Bob Bellotti (Consultant), Joe Sill (Consultant),
Ryan Saunders (Assistant Coach/Statistical Analysis)
Great post, Buddahfan. Thanks!
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the information
That’s some useful info. Thanks Buddafan
So apparently the Raptors already have two stats guys on staff. I imagine that eventually all team will have an analytics department the same way they have people in charge of video and the salary cap.
Do when these guys were hired? Was it pre- or post- Bargnani extension?
I don’t think it’s a question of when they were hired, but rather are their opinions being heavily considered? I have a feeling it’s “thanks for the info guys… now Maurizio, can you pass the Primo pasta and tell me about the Euros in the upcoming draft?”
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 27, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
"now Maurizio, can you pass the Primo pasta and tell me about the Euros in the upcoming draft?"
hahahah! dying man, dying!! That’s another problem I have with BC that is taboo to talk about… His overvaluation of foreign and specifically European talent.
Dumars put together a rarity in modern basketball. An actual team. The rest have built their teams based on part luck and part collusion. Ainge got lucky as if Seattle hadn’t been willing to trade Allen they would have never gotten Garnett and Pierce more than likely would have demanded to be traded. Kupchuk lucked out with Memphis giving away Gasol as if you recall, Kobe had already been itching to get away from the Lakers. Riley, well we all know what happened there and they haven’t won anything yet. His first championship was built similar to the other two GMs.
Lets face it, much like Phil Jackson’s reputation is built off of having 2 perennial MVP candidates and multiple all-stars on his team, many of the so called best GM’s have built their reputation on pure luck. Buford is probably the exception as even though he lucked out with Duncan, he also made some excellent picks with Parker and Ginoboli (amongst others).
Good News On The Labor Front
Judge Susan Nelson ended the NFL lockout pending appeal.
Why is this short term good news?.
Because you can bet your last Molson’s that if a judge stops the NFL lockout that 4sure if it comes to that with the NBA a judge will stop the NBA lockout.
Of course the NFL owners appealed but right now the NBA owners are saying “WTF” are we going to do?
Play hard ball and force a lockout only to see it overturned by a Judge.
Give in to the players demands and accelerate the destruction of the NBA as we know it today.
Shot term raising the debt ceiling on your credit card may work but long term it is either pay the piper, bankruptcy or shut you iphone down and disappear.
Really interesting.
I’m surprised that this was the decision as to your point, it robs owners of whatever power they have and no could set a legal precedent regarding other pro sports’ work stoppages.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't Kid Yourself
Judges in the States today are for the most part pro-labor. They are even more pro-labor with the current administration in Washington. Well over 75% of U.S. attorneys support the Administrations agenda.
Don’t think for one moment that the POTUS will let a lock out happen in the NBA and their are a number of reasons for this many of them are the same as why he his judges wouldn’t allow a lockout in the NFL.
The Democratic Party has become the Lawyers’ Party. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are lawyers. Bill Clinton and Michelle Obama are lawyers. John Edwards, the other former Democrat candidate for president, is a lawyer and so is his wife Elizabeth. Every Democrat nominee since 1984 went to law school (although Gore did not graduate.) Every Democrat vice presidential nominee since 1976, except for Lloyd Bentsen, went to law school. Look at the Democrat Party in Congress: the Majority Leader in each house is a lawyer.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/the_lawyers_party.html
Connect The Dots
1. Attorneys are almost exclusively Democrat.
2. Judges are former attorneys
3. Democrats are pro-labor
4. The POTUS is pro-labor
Judges today are primarily pro-labor
Ya franchise, don't kid yourself! LOL
Who let Glen Beck in here? Come on Buddahfan, please stop with the political nonsense.
And just a tip, not really helping your case if your attempt to disparage the democrats is “they are all educated”.
Glenn Beck
I didn’t know he was a sports fan much less a basketball fan.
Do you have any evidence to support your outrageous statement about Beck that he is a basketball fan?
“Judges today are primarily pro-labor”
hahahahahaha……. good one Budda.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 26, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Buddahfan, I don’t know much about the lower courts, but the SCOTUS still has a conservative majority and with Bush-era guys like Alito and Roberts likely to stick around it will probably stay that way for a while.
The Issue Will Not Go To the SCOTUS
This is what I think will happen
1. There may or may not be a lockout.
2. If there is a lockout it will be brief and may force the cancellation of the summer leagues.
3. The league will start actual season play on time
JMO
I think the bigger issue is that the NFL has no real reason to lock their players out. Simmons had a really good take on this a month or so ago. Basically I think the judge looked at and said hmmmmmmm, You make billions in revenue, have a hard cap system, completely control the players in almost every sense and you now want to lock them out for them to give you even more money while some of their retired players cannot remember their names or are in wheel chairs because they can’t walk any more or afford their medical care? Yeah good one NFL.
Excellent write up
Couldn’t agree with you more.
It’s interesting that you look at some other clubs, say the Pistons who have fallen from much greater hights, have spent all their $ on Ben Gordon and Charlie V. and drafted Darko over DW and CB (heck, I even add TJ to this list!) yet Detroit seems to understands the up and down nature of the league and I haven’t heard many calls for Dumar’s head.
But in Toronto, you build a team around a player who leaves you standing alone at the alter and as you change course on your aircraft carrier, everyone wants to make the GM walk the plank.
I agree with you Franchise that when you look at the overall package of what BC has been able to acomplish with what he had to work with, he’s done well over his career.
Comments that tie his success to his dad are just lazy, unresearched, ignorant comments which would be very helpful if we were organizing a lynch mob but really do nothing to further the topic of this post.
I was firmly in the “fire Colangelo” camp but admittedly after all my research into the GM world, I’m now a bit on the fence. BC has done so really good things in Phoenix and part of me wonders if he simply tried something here in Toronto that was extremely short-lived in terms of success, and now has to try something else.
Ordinarily if something like that doesn’t work, you get fired but in BC’s case, it’s hard not to wonder if we’re looking at too small of a sample.
It’s just really hard to say.
If BC had had two GREAT years followed by a bad or a mediocre one, then fine, you could argue there were missteps. But the current trending really isn’t great, as part of the reason he didn’t make any “grand errors” is because he had very little to work with. Do you risk giving him back the keys?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder how much the Chris Bosh scenario (convincing him to stay) played into Colangelo’s moves here – considering he came into this mess a couple years removed from VC ‘limping’ out of town, and the team clearly hadn’t recovered. Not an excuse, but something to think about when considering why he made the moves he did.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Hold on. You cannot tell me if BC had built a perennial winner that Bosh would still be in Miami. The fact is that BC lucked out his first season then continuously ignored the teams obvious needs to add more perimeter scoring. His one attempt to fix the rebounding and interior defense issues was a disaster (good idea bringing in that Oneal fellow). Lets not start buying into the “Bosh left because he was always going to leave” crap as winning trumps everything.
I think Bosh made it abundantly clear that winning was NOT at the top of his wish list when he left T.O.. More exposure and less responsibility. He wanted an easy ride to a champioship. Let’s not start buying into the “Bosh would not have joined James and Wade had Toronto made it to the playoffs more often.” crap.
really so playing with two of the top players in the NBA will not be conducive to winning but playing for “I haven’t met a bad contract I didn’t like” Colangelo would have?
Nope
I didn’t say playing for Colangelo would be conducive to winning (as you suggest I did). What I am getting at, is Bosh wanted more exposure to grow his “brand”. He made no secret of this. It didn’t matter who Colangelo would have brought in (short of James and Wade), Bosh was heading for greener pastures (in his eyes). Winning is a happy bonus to him getting the fame he craves.
P.S. It wasn’t about making the playoffs but the fact that Bosh and Bron Bron were stuck in the same terrible trap. Their teams were never going to do what was necessary to win a championship. Cleveland and Toronto continually brought in mediocre talent and called them all-stars and then wondered why their teams kept falling short. Maybe it is the easy road to the championship but it was the only road to a championship open to Bosh.
"Maybe it is the easy road to the championship but it was the only road to a championship open to Bosh."
Maybe, maybe not. That is a pretty definitive statement for something that hasn’t happened yet. There were a handful of teams trying to sway Bosh to their camps. Teaming up with Wade and Lebron in Miami was the “sexiest” option.
I Expect That The NBA Finals in June Will Be Between
the Bulls and Thunder.
Will James or Bosh ever win a championship in Miami?
I don’t know but my gut tells me that it won’t be this season.
Not sure your Joe D. Vs. Colangelo comparison is fair. The reason they may not be calling for Dumars’ head in Detroit the way they are in TO is Dumars built a championship team. A team that went to the finals multiple times and was the Eastern Conference champ multiple times. He’s also a hometown hero in Detroit (played for the Pistons Bad Boy champions). Conversely, what has BC done for Toronto? A few measly playoff games followed by some terrible teams? At least with Dumars there is SOME track record of success… That’s probably why Toronto fans have less patience for Colangelo.
At least with Dumars there is SOME track record of success
I would argue that BC does have track record of success. See Franchise’s write up above.
I’m not arguing that BC has been successful in Toronto but that’s exactly my point. Joe is not successful right now but has the track record to prove he can do it.
As does BC.
New GM Hiring committee
My position regarding replacing Colangelo is almost entirely based on who will make the decision about his replacement.
Scenario A:
Hiring committee: MLSE suits including number crunchers from OTPP
My opinion: I am 99% in favour of retaining Colangelo
Scenario B:
Hiring committee: Franchise (for overall direction), D-Stance/Tom Liston (advanced stats quiz), dhackett (test financial acumen and general common sense), Larry Tannenbaum (because he actually cares about the team)
My opinion: Gentlemen, find us a new GM.
No response?
I am surprised that none of the “Fire Colangelo” proponents are defending MLSE’s judgment. MLSE were the ones who chose BC in the first place, so assuming you think he is an idiot, it would be great to hear an explanation of why you think MLSE will make a better choice next time around.
On the flip side, no one else wants to get in on the hiring decision? I nominated who I think would make a good choice. Anyone else have better suggestions?
Add in an impending sale, and the replacement will not only be chosen by MLSE, but on a shoestring budget at that. Yay!
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
re: Shoe String
remember the last time we went shoe string…Rob Babcock FTL
I would be much more comfortable if we had a viable internal candidate. Or someone that doesn’t work with the organization now, but at one time was in a front office position. Just so they’d have some idea of the political animal their dealing with, be it Rogers or MLSE. And if we’re hiring a young gm, I would like to see some big money thrown out at a reputable experienced president to help guide the club and set the vision for a return to playoff success.
Hmmmm. It’s easy to say…since its not my money. But could kicking Colangelo upstairs and bringing in one of those Daryl Morey type disciples be the best of both words. Or at the very least, bring one of these guys in to replace the guy we lost in Masai Ujiri? If BC were older, this would be a slam dunk, but I recall him saying in the past that he seems himself as young with a lot of years left as a GM.
I have a real problem with the "don’t fire Colangelo because we don’t trust MLSE to find a replacement" line of logic. Basically, you’re saying, stick with the bad GM we have because we’re not 100% sure MLSE will pick a better one. My response to that is we already have a bad GM. If you stay on that course there is a 100% chance you will be stuck with a bad GM. If you make a change, even if MLSE is in charge, the chance you will have a bad GM drops from 100% as it is entirely possible a better GM will be chosen. So, simply going by the odds, doesn’t it make sense to terminate BC and allow MLSE to pick a replacement. At least you have a chance at getting a good GM.
With MLSE in charge of the search, do you really think that the chances of going from a “bad GM” to a “good GM” are higher than the chances of going from a “bad GM” to a “worse GM” ?
Yes
To be quite honest, I’m not sure you can get much worse than a GM that makes decisions based on a flawed fundamental philosophy. My basic problem with BC is he doesn’t know how to build a team to win in the NBA. His value system is backwards (overvalues things like PPG, jump shooting and general Euroness and undervalues things like defence rebounding, teamwork and team dynamics).
And before everyone jumps on the "Euroness" comment, let me explain. BC over hedged on the "un-tapped Euro league talent pool has caught up to the NBA" concept (which was nonsense to begin with) and made some bad decisions (Gheradinhi, Bargnani, Will Solomon etc. etc.). He then made them worse by escalating his commitment to them (i.e. throwing the team under the bus to make Bargnani fit). The fact of the matter is Euro Ball (i.e. drive and kick, Centers as jump shooters etc.) will NEVER work in the NBA because of the general parity of talent and athleticism as well as overall richness of the talent pool. I’m not sure BC has come to terms with this.
If you are convinced that Colangelo is the worst possible GM for the Raptors then we have reached the point where rational discussion is no longer an option. It is a matter of emotion and you will never be convinced of anything other than your current opinion.
Really?
I thought there were at least a few logical, rational points in my post above that were worth addressing. I explained why I’m “not sure you can get much worse” (which is not necessarily the same as "convinced). That explanation was anything but emotional. You just failed to deal with any of these points…
Furthermore, you’ve still not dealt with the fact that failing to do anything (i.e. allowing the Colangelo regime to continue) virtually guarantees the continuation of the current predicament we’re in, whereas doing something (even if it involves MLSE making a decision) at least opens the opportunity for something better.
Unless of course, Colangelo has learned from some of his mistakes, and is taking a different approach, as indicated by most of his recent moves. Which might be why some people are suddenly so hesitant to let him go. When he was at his worst (I would peg my greatest dislike of Colangelo as being right after the Turk trade – although even then I had to respect the way he did it and kept flexibility), Door #2 was a good option – even if there’s only a 20% chance MLSE hires someone even half decent, better than nothing right?
However, with his most recent moves, actually pretty much all of them since the Turk move, he has convinced me that a) he might yet get it and build the right way, with a good philosophy (defense first, with offensive talents to bolster, rather than the other way around), and b) that therefore Door # 2 is just not looking so good with the low chances of MLSE making the right call, especially with an upcoming sale (and therefore bottom-of-the-barrel, low-budget hiring).
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure the trading for the signing of Kleiza, the David Anderson, the subsequent trading of Jack and Anderson for Bayless (which to my recollection are the only deals of consequence since the Turk trade) and the trading of a first round draft pick for James Johnson is enough to prove that Colangelo has completely changed direction from a failed strategy. In fact, I would say the signing of Kleiza – which looks absolutely disastrous at this point – which he blew the mid-level on last summer, was more of the same Colangelo an example of how he has not changed his ways. Again, Colangelo was thinking he outsmarted everyone signing a Euro player that couldn’t stick in the NBA before.
In conclusion,what you’re saying by advocating re-signing Colangelo is saying to him (if you’re right and he has changed his ways, which Idon’’t yet buy) “thanks for learning how to be a GM on our dime and while setting the franchise back half a decade. Here’s another $20 mil for your troubles.” Come on…
Since the Turk trade:
- Sign Jarrett Jack
- Re-sign Rasho
- Trade for Belinelli
- Trade for Amir Johnson and Sonny Weems
- Sign Joey Dorsey
- Select Ed Davis
- Trade for Solomon Alabi
- Re-sign Amir Johnson
- Sign Kleiza
- Sign+Trade Bosh
- Trade for Barbosa
- Trade for Wright
- Trade for Bayless, Peja
- Trade for Ajinca + future 2nd
- Trade for James Johnson
I’ve left out the various 10-day contracts. Oddly enough, that still seems like a bigger list than you came up with. Of the above moves, I think Kleiza was a blunder (but not too costly a one, since he was signed for well below the MLE). Otherwise, they are all either solid moves or low-risk potential moves (ie late 1st for JJ, Belinelli for Wright, TPE for Ajinca, etc). Which is a good sign for a rebuilding club, that the GM can make moves of this type – building up future assets and flexibility.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so you mean when we acquired Turk when he was a free agent?? If so, "the Turk trade" is just an odd way to refer to it. I thought you meant when Turk was traded for Barbosa, that would be the logical definition of "the Turk trade"… Anyways…….. The only moves I would qualify as examples that maybe BC had changed direction and learned from the errors of his ways were the Amir Johnson trade (which he gets full marks for) the subsequent re-signing of Johnson, the Jack signing, maybe the Johnson deal and maybe the Bayless/Peja deal (which he made when it was blatantly obvious to him that this team was going nowhere, even though it was obvious to everyone else 6 months prior).
The rest are either examples of the same old BC (Kleiza/Bellenelli), still inconclusive yet no-brainers at the time (DeRozan, Davis, Alabi), irrelevant (Rasho, Doresey, Sign and trade for Bosh – as they aren’t even going to use the bulk of the TPE – Ajinca) or would never happen again in a million years unless Turkaglu’s agent was hired as a team’s GM (trade for Barbosa).
So, really you are talking about 4 years of bad decisions vs. The Bayless/Peja deal, the Jack signing and Amir Johnson…. Wow. How fast can we draw up a contract for this guy! BARGS!
You thought it was logical that I would describe that trade as the low point in BC’s management here? Also, we acquired Turk via trade – hence all the outgoing players in that transaction. Plus I also said I admired how he pulled off the trade and still managed to keep flexibility, which far better describes the first Turk move than the 2nd. I’m afraid I must disagree with your ‘logic.’
What are your 4 years of bad decisions? Probably…. Bargnani, Turk, JO, Kapono, arguably Kleiza. Add in that Turk and JO took up the same cap space (ie JO traded for Marion traded for Turk) and that really only has the impact of 1 mistake, especially since Turk was here for ONE YEAR. Real crippling that 5 year contract was. Kapono became Reggie, one of the only positive contributors to the team this year. JO became Marion, who looked really good on this team – would’ve loved to have him back, but he wanted to walk. Turk became Barbosa, a better player on less money per year for less years, and another positive contributor this past year – and also a quality asset next year to bring in more young talent, as an expiring and good off-the-bench scorer, something playoff teams are always willing to pay for come trade deadline.
Oh, and draft picks, even obvious ones, get screwed up royally all the time, so don’t go throwing around no-brainer like it actually means something.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Look, no one, not anyone in the media, bloggers, fans or commenters on this site has ever referred to the acquisition by Brian Colangelo of Hedo Turkaglu as "the Turk trade". In fact, if you want to get technical, it was a "SIGN and trade" and I have heard it referred to as such. If you would have said SIGN and trade, I would have immediately known what you are talking about. However, if you poll 100 Raptors fans and asked them what the "Turk trade" was, I am convinced 90% of them would refer to the Barbosa deal as it was the only true "Trade" (and not sign and trade).
As far as my "4 years of bad decisions", I’ve already listed my "All-Colangelo Team" in another thread which you commented on so I believe your familiar. The Turk signing impacted the Raps past his ONE YEAR, as a result we had to take on two years of Barbosa, so that’s 3 years of cap space eaten up, not to mention the opportunity costs. The oportunity costs are huge as instead of spending money on guys like Bargnani, Turk, Kapono etc. those resources could have been spent on alternative NBA players. As I’ve said before, if BC didn’t screw up almost every acquisition he made, he wouldn’t have had to spend time and resources cleaning up his messes. In conclusion, one of the most damming indictments on BC is that he was unable to build anything with Bosh and then got nothing for him in return. Completely wasted that asset while he was here and on the way out.
I’ll agree with one thing here – trying to build around Bosh was his mistake. He got more and more desperate to find a working method as time went on (and made a few smaller mistakes early on), and ultimately failed at that.
Anyway, considering you summed up most of his moves recently as good or at least average (draft picks, low risk moves), with the exception of Kleiza – compare that to how you would describe his first couple years of moves, with mistake after mistake – to say he has not improved, even in your eyes MAS, would be a lie, based on what you said above.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
First off, trying to build around Bosh was not his mistake. Not being able to do it, was his failing. He failed to bring in anything even resembling All-Star talent while Bosh was here and surrounded him with the likes of Jason kapono, Turk, JO’s corpse and Rasho… Not a winning strategy.
Finally, I did say that not all of his moves were terrible. However, that doesn’t mean he changed course. As recently as last off-season he spent his entire midlevel exception on a questionable Euro player (that was doomed to fail IMO and did) and tried to trade for Chandler and fat ass Diaw thereby crippling this teams cap flexibility. Why? Because he was convinced there was enough here to build around, specifically Bargnani. That would have been a monstrous failure as while yes, I love Chandler as player and agree he is exactly what this team needs going forward, he is needed INSTEAD of Bargnani and not WITH Bargnani.
Anyways, those moves that he made recently that are decent are small transactions, which pale in comparison to the larger braincramps BC has had during his Raptor tenure and do not excuse his longer list of mistakes and definitely don’t equate to a contract extension.
Spent entire mid-level on Kleiza? Check.
Trading for Diaw and Chandler ruins flexibility? Check.
Good job. Both attempts at salient points that are completely wrong.
Kleiza was signed to a 4 year 18.8 million deal; MLE is 5 year deal starting at 5.765 with max raises (8%) so, 33.8 million. So one year and 15 million short of the MLE, a total of 2 million per year less even discounting the length, but nice try.
Trade for Chandler and Diaw: Jose Calderon (3 years, 29.3M) and Reggie Evans (1 year, 5.1M) for Chandler (1 year, 12.6M) and Diaw (2 years, 18M). So, in that deal he would have received back 21.6 M for his outgoing 14.1 M, adding 7.5 million to this year’s salary structure. Of course, he would have reduced the total financial commitments by 1M next year, and 10.6M the year after that. Thus reducing the length of salary commitment by a year and the total financial commitment by 4.1 million – that sort of added flexibility is clearly crippling.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
1) The Kleiza deal was $4.7 mil per year 1 mil less than the $5.765. WOW! I can’t wait until Colangelo signs that GAME CHANGER with the $1million he didn’t spend on Kleiza! Fantastic point. Brilliant! The fact that the ENTIRE kleiza deal is now dead f’n weight on the roster is so much easier to swallow now! Not sure how you got $2mil per year….
2) Regarding the Chandler deal, what you will also be doing is postponing this nightmare roster when a absolute teardown was required. But of course, BC and other fools were convinced adding Chandler to a Bargnani front court would have guaranteed 50 wins… No, we would have won 30 – 38 games, missed the playoffs and ha d a terrible lottery pick. All we would be doing is postponing the rebuild by two years. No thanks!!!!!!
1) 5.765 is the first year – it has raises each year to 6.226, 6.724, 7.262, and 7.843 million. The average per year value is 6.76 million. Math, would be how I got 2 million. And if 2 million is chump change that is beneath your attention, then the 4.7 million spent can’t really be that much either. Truth is, you overstated his cost by 44% on a per year basis and 80% overall.
2) Well, the ensuing result of a better year than this one would have been that the Raptors have a player like Chandler, instead of a top draft pick in this year’s version of 2006’s worst draft of the century, and of course one extra year of Jose’s 10.5 million dollar contract. Of course they would still have a lottery pick in a very level draft. This doesn’t change the fact that the move was clearly attempted with an eye on future cap flexibility, even if the current team would have improved.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok fair enough on the calculation of Kleiza’s deal vs. The MLE. However, these relatively meaningless diversion doesn’t change my initial argument that it was another example of BC going to the Euro well one more time and that he did not, change his approach (never mind that Kleiza was ass when he played and now may never play meaningful minutes in the NBA again). Same goes for the Chandler deal. He was going to make a deal based on his belief that the team would have been good enough to compete if it added Chandler and Diaw, mainly based on his over-estimation and basic wrong headedness on Bargnani (i.e. he would be the next franchise player that just needed to be flanked by a decent centre). Both cases, the Chandler deal and the Kleiza signing were examples of Colangelo overestimating the talent on his teams. Which, is precisely the definition of "the same old Colangelo".
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree – I see significant changes in his approach compared to the past. I see different motivations than you do for the moves described, so we won’t be able to come to an agreement. Kleiza was hardly from ‘the euro well,’ having played both in the NCAA in college and in the NBA for several years. You have no real knowledge of his motives making those moves – perhaps he looked at them the way I am, and not the way you are. Even bringing in Chandler to help Bargnani isn’t necessarily a bad move – if he can raise Bargnani’s trade value for a move at the deadline, and the Chandler trade itself brings more cap flexibility, where’s the downside? Can you state definitively that that wasn’t his plan? Even if it wasn’t Plan A, it could easily have been on the list of desirable outcomes from that trade, if Bargnani was to suck at PF as well and BC (purportedly) finally decided to move him.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
“To be quite honest, I’m not sure you can get much worse than a GM that makes decisions based on a flawed fundamental philosophy.”
Their are two fairly obvious objections to that assertion.
Firstly, Colangelo’s winning percentage as a GM is ~0.515. “Slightly above average” would be the best description of his “fundamental philosophy” than “not sure you can get much worse.”
Secondly, Colangelo is showing signs of moving away from his Euro experiment. Since shipping out Turkoglu, the only notable Euro he has brought in is Kleiza, while at the same time he has brought in Ed, JJ and Bayless and now he is openly discussing moving Bargnani.
“The continuity argument”
As I just mentioned, Colangelo is already pursuing a different approach to the one you find “fundamentally flawed”. If the Raptors get the #1 or #2 pick in this year’s draft I am willing to bet they take either DWilliams or KIrving. Colangelo is nothing if not adaptable. When one thing hasn’t worked (ie a player signing) he has tried something else. Why would you think that he would be unwilling to abandon a philosophy that wasn’t achieving the results he wanted?
Once again, I will re-iterate that I don’t think Colangelo is necessarily the best possible GM the Raptors could have (I would prefer Presti like many people here). But, if you think that he is the worst possible GM then I think you are arriving at that conclusion using your gut and not your head(which ironically is what you seem to think is BC’s biggest flaw).
First point: Colangelo’s winning percentage has a lot more to do with Steve Nash than Brian Colangelo.
Second point: I can’t buy that he’s moving away from the Euro experiment if his most recent signing was $20 mil for a player in Kleiza that couldn’t even get a contract in the NBA the year before. Plus, I hold Colangelo directly responsible for shoving Bargnani down everyone’s throats last season both from a promotional perspective and from a playing time, usage and lack of accountability perspective. I find it hard to take solace in the fact that he may or may not have intimated he would consider trading Bargnani. Experts, analysts, writers, laymen, small children have been aware of Bargnani’s ineptitude for years. It terrifies me that Colangelo is so terribly late to this party.
Third point, I can’t see how anyone can argue with a straight face that the fact this GM has had to perpetually back peddle, change direction and clean up after his own messes is a GOOD thing! It defies logic. Wouldn’t it be great if we had a GM that WASN’T constantly having to clean up his own mess and could focus on moving the franchise forward???
Finally, based on his track record, the abovementioned, his tainted relationship with the fans and the fact I don’t trust him for a second to be objective in any dealings with Andrea Bargnani – the Raptors main roadblock to moving forward and success – I do think he is the worst option for the Raptors going forward, as what is needed is a completely fresh approach.
First point: I like Nash, too, but who brought him to the Suns? Oh right, Colangelo.
Second point: Yes, we know you hate Bargnani. Moving on….
Third point: Given your recycling the same argument for more than a year now it is not surprising that you hate adaptability.
Finally: “his tainted relationship with the fans” is pretty much a matter or conjecture. Based on the split opinion around here, a more accurate characterization would be “his tainted relationship with some of the fans”.
First point: If you think Colangelo thought he was signing potentially the best PG in the game, I have to disagree with you. Yes, fair point he brought Cash there, but I don’t think ANYONE predicted that Nash would go from good point guard to "2 time MVP".
Second point: Ignore the Bargnani point if you like, but it is entirely relevant (I like how you’re choosing to selectively deal with arguments…). Also, you failed to address the fact that the Kleiza signing as recently as last offseason is an example of Colangelo going to the Euro well once again, despite his lack of success with this strategy.
Third point: What you see as adaptability, I see as consistently screwing up and having to waste time, resources and assets to clean up. Call it recycling if you like, but the fact remains it’s true. BC is just fantastic at "adapting" to his own screw ups… whoopie, congratulations…
Finally: The arguments I’ve heard for keeping Colangelo range from "we don’t trust MLSE to hire anyone else", to "maybe he’s figured out that mostly everything he did over 5 years has been wrong so he deserves another chance". Hardly a ringing endorsement from the fan base….
First point: As Franchise pointed out “you have to be lucky to be good.”
Second point: If Kleiza hadn’t been injured I think we would have a different opinion of him. The Kleiza who killed it for Lithuania over the summer would have been useful for the Raptors, especially considering the team’s 3-point shooting woes….Colangelo’s Euro signings weren’t even universally bad. Garbajosa was good until a freak injury. Parker was good until age slowed him down. Bargnani might even have a useful role on some team (although probably not in Toronto).
Third point: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone…. Everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone admits they are wrong and does something about it. I am not trying to argue that BC is perfect.
Finally: I agree, I would not give Colangelo a ringing endorsement. That doesn’t mean he is the “worst possible option” for Raptors GM at this point in time….Not trusting MLSE is just a sad fact of life for Raptors fans at this point in time. Peddie et al have worked hard to earn out distrust with their opaque backroom manoeuvres. Their indecisiveness in the face of what you see as a clear cut decision should yet more proof of that.
Ok, think we have killed this one... But good debate. Just a couple more points
First point: Agree to disagree
Second Point: This drives me nuts. I remember all the clamor about how great Kleiza was going to be last summer because he was so awesome at the worlds. Yes, those great games he had against imposing oponents such as China, New Zealand, Canada and feaking Lebanon! Wow, congratulations. Let’s remember that this is the tournament where the American “C” team walked right through with Lamar Odum as their starting centre (!!!!) and Luis Scola got serious consideration as an MVP candidate. Please… Then, as I expected, he came to the NBA and shat the bed. And as for his injury, he was healthy for a good chunk of the season and still played like ass. Either way, Klieza’s contract and corpse will now rot on the Raptors for the next three seasons.
Third point: Agree to disagre. I can understand how you think one being able to admit when one is wrong is a good trate to have. I just wish BC didn’t have to do it almost everytime he made a decision. Ever notice how almost none of his free agent signings/trades lasted more than 18 months on the team? This just can’t be used as an example of a good thing. Even worse though, is one terrible mistake he could have fixed and didn’t. He was mistaken about Bargnani’s ability, but what did he do? He escallated his commitment and prematurely and unecessarily signed him to an extention.
Finally: Agree to disagree I suppose… Hey you have no quarrel with me regarding the competance of MLSE. However, MLSE wasn’t running the team for the last 5 years. They gave full control to BC and he drove this team to new lows. And as for who will select the next GM, I’m sure Wayne Embry, a man I trust, will have a big enough say to belay our fears.
Don’t want to get too involved here, but at no point this season was Kleiza fully healthy – he injured himself in preseason, and played through his recovery until he had his season ending injury (which I believe was unrelated, before anyone gets in a huff).
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions
not sold on kevin pritchard
I’m sorry but I’m just not sold on pritchard at all. Sure he made some pretty good moves but really people get on BC for his contract to bargs yet pritchard gave a hugh contract to a player (roy) who is 1 surgery away from calling it a career. He did a good job with changing the culture of the team but its all about “what have you done for me lately” and to be blunt the blazers really haven’t done more than the raps under his watch. They still haven’t made it out the first round in how many years? If I’m not mistaken francise I think it was you who even said you heard from other people that pritchard was hard-headed and tough to deal with. It also says a lot when you get canned like a half an hour before a draft (which is unheard of). BC made some bad free agent signings but when look at draft history he’s been pretty damn good if not just as good or better than pritchard in that department, and that’s what we want right to go the youth route and BC is good at finding talent.
by sherwin316 on Apr 26, 2011 11:54 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
More info on Kevin Pritchard please...
Franchise, didn’t you have a chat with the guys from Blazer’s Edge about Pritchard? I think it was some time last summer. Maybe I am imagining things, but if I am not could you dig that interview up and give us some clarification on exactly why he got fired.
Definitely going to do this.
In fact writing this probably spawned three more posts.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You are kidding right? Injuries and sucking are two different things. I said it before and I will say it again, I will gladly trade 3 and 1/2 years of Roy for Barney’s entire career.
I’ll go one step further: +1 billion
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 27, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya there is a difference, I agree that roy is the better player but like I said above its all about what have you done for me lately. And what has roy done for the blazers?? Has he led them to a conference finals? A championship? Past the 1st round??? Nothing, so at the end of the day you still have 2 players with hugh contracts that aint gonna lead their team no where when its all said and done.
by sherwin316 on Apr 27, 2011 11:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ummm did you see Roy singlehandedly bring the Blazers back in this series against the Mavs?
And the series ain’t over yet. Either way, I think the point was, Brandon Roy has done more for his franchise up to this point than Bargnani will do through the course of his entire basketball career. Which I guess isn’t really saying that much when you really think about it ; )
hahah ya I saw that but..
The very next game in dallas roy had what?? 6 points for the game? To me the series is over you can’t have roy explode for 18 points in the 4th only to disappear next game. But again I agree with you roy has done a hell of a lot more than bargs (even tho bargs did have a hand in the team winning its first division crown) just to me at the end of the day with what they might bring to their teams in the future and the size of both their contracts to me its a wash.
by sherwin316 on Apr 28, 2011 8:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"even tho bargs did have a hand in the team winning its first division crown"
Dude… You can’t be serious…
Ignoring sherwin’s anti-proof there (woot, division banner!), if Roy ends up going down permanently or not being able to consistently return to form, his contract may well be more of an albatross than Bargnani’s. Doesn’t change who is the better player or the better pick, but definitely could change the position each puts his current team in. IE – Bargnani cripples the Raptors, but not as much as a dead-weight Roy on a huge contract could the Trailblazers.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Relative trade value Roy vs. Bargs
As ridiculous as it may sound, I would argue that Bargnani currently has more trade value than Roy. With Bargnani you know what you are going get (i.e. diverse low-efficiency scoring). With Roy you would have no idea whether you are getting a star or a cripple. It makes me sad to say that last part.
hahaha I'm serious
I know it is funny but come on now..he did help the team that year. After that call-out bosh gave him in golden state he played much better the rest of the year, even had some game winners against settle and portland. And I’m not even a bargs homer or anything like that just stating how I feel..oh and as I wrote this dallas booted portland out of the playoffs..another first round lose by the blazers.
by sherwin316 on Apr 29, 2011 11:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks for all the props folks, really eye-opening research endeavour.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
During my search for “the new Colangelo,” the one thing that kept smacking me over the head was just how good BC had been.
Has he lost his touch?
Or can we attribute his recent image to simply a matter of sample size?
Because in reality Colangelo still has one of the best records of all GM’s, especially those with eight or more years experience.
Colangelo ran into a few factors, that derailed his style:
- the Canadian factor – Any new GM will have to adapt to this reality.
- MLSE – corporate entity with no ego, and no balls
- Early success
- Appeasing Bosh – (ie. hanging on to that build-around-CB dream)
.
1. I agree
2. MLSE took a step back from the teams (both Raptors and Leafs). They had little to do with what BC created.
3. I agree
4. That was BC’s choice to do that.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 27, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
As for 4, yes, it was his choice, but can you imagine the outcry if he had traded Bosh the first year he was here? That’s when the decision was made.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions
sure
but what about after he turned down his extension offer? BC had seen him for 2 years… fans were questioning Bosh (both ability, desire and whether he would stick around)….. or instead of signing Turk the following year?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 27, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And his appeasement fell well short of the mark. Lets face it, BC blew his chance to build on his first year. The End.
Precisely
What’s missed here is that if BC was a competent GM and didn’t try to "build" around Bosh with parts such as Kapono, Bargnani and Turkaglu, maybe we wouldn’t be in this predicament! Colangelo was never able to bring in anyone REMOTELY near the All-Star level, which is what was required to pair with Bosh. You can’t tell me that if you paired a All-Star (or close to it) wing with Bosh, as well as decent defenders/rebounders, this team wouldn’t have had a lot more success.
Damn
That was a another good read man, excellent write up. I was baffled by the Pritchard firing, both reasoning and timing. He’d def be an interesting choice.
Nice piece
As a guy that gets down on the constant hating, that was a balanced and fair article. I agree that BC knows this team as well as anyone in this league and knows what is needed toimprove this team. Many of BC’s signings look bad in hindsight, but I thought were at least justifyable at the time (save Kapono, but even then BC was new and didn’t seem to know what every Rap fan knows – we need to add athleticism and D to the wings). Almost all of BC’s recent additions improved the D. To me, this speaks to the fact that BC is aware of where this team needs to improve.
Totally agree with Rapthoseleafs that the Raps GM is fighting with one hand tied behind his back and it may not be fair to compare him with other GM’s as if it was a total even playing field. Compared to other Raptor GM’s, BC may well be one of the best. I think Wayne Embry did an excellent job in a short period of time, acquiring draft picks and shedding contracts; but it is actually how those picks and cap space is used that takes the real skill.
Sure, Turk was an awful signing, but the way BC constructed that trade was brilliant capology. JO didn’t work out, but a tough defensive inside presence was exactly what the Raps needed (and still need) and the whole Calderon vs TJ thing forced his hand and he was still able to get value (I know Hibbert hurts). Kleiza left the NBA on a high and was blowing things up in Europe. We needed an SF that could rebound and play an all around/glue type game, but didn’t have much to spend. The Chandler trade would have been Sweet had MJ not screwed us. I know watching all this losing makes people want someone to pay a price, but I’m not convinced that hiring a new GM with a new 5 year plan – EVERY 5 YEARS is the way to build a team. Hopefully, MLSE will take a patient approach and let BC fix this team. As Mr Francis said, I think his resume is pretty strong and entitles him to the chance.
Put me in the keep BC camp.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Apr 26, 2011 6:22 PM EDT reply actions
i dont think he did that bad of a job,
alot of the guys he got just didnt turn it on or were just plain shit well played like it. I wouldnt mind signing him to a short contract 2 years id say.
if we always sign a new gm after they failed to turn this team into a contender during their contract, we’ll never be able to have a stable organization. I see BC hasnt done what he was initially told to, which was to turn this into a winning team, but in his last year of his contract, and when our star player bosh decided to ditch, BC realized what he must do and that was to start over and become younger. Bc has a plan, which he already started, and with ed davis and demar progressing nicely, he now can be able to actually make his own team (without having to build around a certain player bosh). Now if we sign a new GM, the gm has to become familiarized with the players, the staff, and the entire organization, as well as the city. If BC is resigned, he can just continue to work on constructing a young and coming team, which he has already mentioned and started. he knows this team more than any other GM and apparently loves the city, it makes sense to sign him. we have such a high gm turnover rate, well never have a stable organization. BC has the experience, connections with the league, knowledge of the organization, has a pretty solid GM record and resume, he’s already familiar with the team and has already started his plan to get younger and will most likely be the one drafting come draft night. he should be given another chance, or at least a few more years to show his worth post-bosh era
“without having to build around a certain player bosh”
I’m sorry. Was it in his contract that he had to do everything possible to build around and keep Bosh on the Raptors? Because then he would have had to. If not he choose to.
This isn’t becuase he didn’t build the team into a contender… its because after 5 years they are worse off than where they started with him.
Yes there are some nice players going forward (Derozan, Amir, Ed)…. but they are nothing more than potential.
He was willing to build with and around a player like Bargnani once…. whats to keep him from doing it a 2nd time?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 27, 2011 7:09 AM EDT reply actions
As for whether it was in his contract – it just might effectively have been. If the higher ups saw big sales of Bosh jerseys, and felt that attendance was picking up due to a star developing in the void left by VC, building around Bosh might have been his first and only directive from the powers that be.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Lets not pretend that BC failed to build anything close to a championship caliber team. You can blame Bosh all you want for that but Bosh doesn’t sign or trade for players. That would be BC’s job. I mean we are not talking about a team that made multiple Conference championships and just needed one piece to get over the top here, we are talking about a team that won exactly 3 playoff games in 4 years. 3.
I never once blamed Bosh. I actually didn’t blame anyone – I simply said that MLSE might have played a role in the decision to keep Bosh rather than move him. What in my comment made you respond like that?
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Disagree dhackett
MLSE took a hands-off approach and granted BC complete dominion over basketball operations. So it was his decision not to trade Bosh and try and build with him included in a nucleus. This was not BC’s failing. BC’s failing was a complete inability to bring any semblance of talent in to group with Bosh. He wasted money on players like Kaponon/Bargnani/Turkaglu instead.
yep thats one of the big things with me
while it is ‘possible’ that MLSE said “you have to keep Bosh” I find it highly unlikely considering they took a step back from the team operation.
Which then says to me… everything involving Bosh, building around him, not trading him, planning on retaining him etc, was all BC.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 27, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Where are you getting this information, that they took a step back? Publicly, even meddling owners like to be seen as stepping back from the team and letting the knowledge people go to work. In no way is it impossible that they said something exactly like that – taking a step back from the day-to-day operations still means any big decisions such as a Bosh trade would be approved by the board before they happened.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Where are you getting that they were directing BC to keep Bosh? It’s pure supposition on your part. At the very least, I can say that I distinctly remember Peddie going out of his way to emphasise that BC had complete authority over Basketball operations at the time of Colangelo’s hiring. I also find it incredibly hard to believe that Colangelo would be "forced" into keeping Bosh against his wishes. Nevertheless, this argument is redundant as whether by his own choosing or by some fantasy that he was forced to keep Bosh, he failed to put one even close to All-Star talent beside him and THAT is why this franchise is where it is today.
I said might have – in no way do I have any deterministic information on the matter, just like you.
And I personally wasn’t involved in the discussion of what BC did or did not do around Bosh. I was just pointing out that none of us know that he wasn’t instructed to build the team a certain way. Personally, I trust Richard Peddie about as far as I can throw him.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 27, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I also never said
that MLSE did or did not force BC’s hand.
But both MLSE and BC himself said the team was under BC’s control, and (if I’m not mistaken) the words actually were “taken a step back from” the Raptors and Leafs.
They may very well both be lieing, or both telling the truth. I see no reason why they would lie about it though.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 27, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I see no reason why they would lie about it though.
Me neither. But of course I pretty much never see any reason behind any of the moves the big wigs at MLSE make.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 28, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Well isn’t that what rebuilding is all about, potential. Everyone here is looking at the past, which is fine but u all should put more faith into the future. Bc has already started the rebuild. U put a new gm, everything is going to change AGAIN. As u can see bc is started to realize what he needs to fix, and by that he is starting to build around a young athletic more defensive type team than what he used to build before. That’s what I want. He now has realized his mistakes and trying to change it, he already called bargs out in his latest interview, now we just have to wait till he is able to trade him. Everyone here seems to just want to fire this guy cause he wasn’t able to turn this team into a contender. Reality is no new gm is gonna do it, not anytime soon and your bound to see mistakes again. Everyone just wants the easy way out, hire a new gm, fine, but once he flames out or gonna make mistakes ur gonna want a new gm again. And then a new one. And then another. That’s what I see will happen, u hire a new gm and everything will be all good knowing u fired the last gm, and then once things seem uneasy your gonna turn ur backs on the new guy. That’s the way it has been for every gm who works with the raptors
by tea time on Apr 27, 2011 2:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If u want to hire a new gm, just don’t expect they’ll automatically makes excellent trades, sign star American players to play for the raps, draft star players, and turn this team into the second coming of okc.
by tea time on Apr 27, 2011 2:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, there's a few grains of sand in the vasoline
Quality/strength of the coaching staff and Bargnani. Jay and company have either been incapable of establishing discipline and Bargnani has been the shining example of this lack of coaching strength. He must be traded to improve the team. So, the big question is: Are these issues going to be addressed by Colangelo. That’s gamble
Why Bargnani Has Not Been Traded So Far.
1. He was the #1 pick so that kept him in Toronto for awhile
2. Then there was the Bosh factor. When Bosh was in Toronto the Raptors were a marginal playoff team so the thinking which most agreed with at the time was that the Raptors could get better by building around Bosh and Bargnani – BC tried and failed.
3. Bosh left and Bargnani became the #1 guy who was pretty much untradable in 2010-11 because Bargnani was a BYC player with a very low trade value. So it was very difficult to trade him last season for equivalent value. As I recall Bargnani’s BYC trade value last season was about what Amir was making
Now there should be no reason not to trade him, provided BC can convince some other team to give the Raptors value and not overpaid player/s for him.
My guess is that if Bargnani is not traded this summer that sometime next season he will be coming off of the bench as kind of like a Jamal Crawford type player.
We shall see.
Why Bargnani Has Not Been Traded So Far.
1. He was the #1 pick so that kept him in Toronto for awhile
2. Then there was the Bosh factor. When Bosh was in Toronto the Raptors were a marginal playoff team so the thinking which most agreed with at the time was that the Raptors could get better by building around Bosh and Bargnani – BC tried and failed.
3. Bosh left and Bargnani became the #1 guy who was pretty much untradable in 2010-11 because Bargnani was a BYC player with a very low trade value. So it was very difficult to trade him last season for equivalent value. As I recall Bargnani’s BYC trade value last season was about what Amir was making
Now there should be no reason not to trade him, provided BC can convince some other team to give the Raptors value and not overpaid player/s for him.
My guess is that if Bargnani is not traded this summer that sometime next season he will be coming off of the bench as kind of like a Jamal Crawford type player.
We shall see.
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