Step 2 - Making Changes - More on Bryan Colangelo's Future with the Raptors
In this morning's post, the HQ notes that while Colangelo may have taken "step 1" of 12, it's their version of step 2 that really counts...
On Tuesday I gave my overall take on Bryan Colangelo's year-end presser.
Many readers noted that it lacked a sense of euphoria considering that it sounded like BC was finally owning up to some of the issues that have plagued this club for the last few seasons.
It's true, my take was perhaps a bit skeptical, and not the "yes, he finally gets it!" angle some expected.
So keeping with my "12 Steps" theme, let me explain.
It's great that Colangelo admitted to having a problem, that's indeed Step 1.
But as I noted yesterday, actions speak louder than words, so really, it's the next actions he performs that will be the deciding factors in terms of my level of excitement going forward.
Because as one reader put it yesterday, I should be excited.
Long-time readers will recall that really since year two of Colangelo's regime, I thought the team needed to start over to a certain extent. Sure the Raptors had just finished a second-straight visit to the playoffs, but even in that loss to Orlando you could see some major cracks in the team's core. The team lacked toughness, athleticism, a slashing wing, defense and really, aside from perhaps rebounding, these same issues are true today, some even more apparent.
So hearing Colangelo speak of a rebuild should bring tears of joy to my eyes, as he now sees the light.
But does he?
That's what we have to ask ourselves honestly.
Because while I'd love to believe that his moves this season were in line with this "rebuild mentality," you have to wonder if injuries didn't play a major role in pushing him towards this line of thought. Remember, the team was actually playing better basketball than many expected until Reggie Evans went down, and then things really started to come unglued.
The club had actually reeled off four straight wins in late November after a 2 and 9 start, and then down went Reggie.
After that?
A 6 and 13 stretch that only got worse once the new year hit.
Further to that, it was injuries, not "giving the young players experience" that seemed to dictate Jay Triano's allocation of minutes. The Raptors' coach was still rolling out guys like Leandro Barbosa and Reggie Evans over younger players when it was clear that a losing season was a foregone conclusion.
And the fact of the matter is that BC's off-season moves don't exactly back up a re-build approach.
Re-signing Amir Johnson was a must considering the team didn't know what it would get from Reggie Evans or Ed Davis, had struck out on Tyson Chandler, and sorely needed some rebounding and shot-blocking beside Andrea Bargnani.
Moving Hedo was also a no-brainer, and that leaves the Julian Wright and Linas Kleiza transactions.
Wright one could argue was indeed a move made with an eye on the future, but remember that Marco Belinelli was hardly a 10-year vet. No, I'd say this move was made out of positional need (remember, the Raptors essentially had no SF with Hedo being shown the door) than a need to rebuild for the future.
And the Linas Kleiza signing?
This one was made firmly on improving the team in the short-term, a stop-gap if you will with only Julian Wright as a true 3 on the roster.
Oh...and of course, the big fork in the rebuilding season potato comes from the fact that during out time at the Raptors' pre-season media session Colangelo refused to call this season a "rebuilding one."
If you add it all up then, it should be a major cause for concern.
Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it appears that Colangelo wasn't viewing this club as needing a "rebuild" until injuries set in, and didn't switch gears into "rebuild mode" until things really started to fall apart.
Not good.
I'd argue that one of the key attributes of a good GM is talent evaluation, and the evidence again, for a third straight season I'd add, points in the direction of Colangelo thinking his team was a lot better than it really was.
I'll add on the "we're not far off" comments from years three and four of his regime, both made prior to seasons that saw the team miss the playoffs in a weak Eastern Conference, and recently his comparisons of DeMar DeRozan to Kobe Bryant, and before that, Andrea Bargnani to Dirk Nowitzki.
He's assured fans and the media that he'd get something good in return for Chris Bosh, that Hedo was a good fit, and that Shawn Marion was a viable short-term and long-term solution.
Sure, there are some pluses on the other side of the chalk board, but my point here is that Colangelo has done very little with the resources that he's previously had at his disposal, and there hasn't been much evidence lately to say that that's going to change.
He even touted DeRozan as a player who would have been drafted a lot higher now, should the 2009 draft get a redo.
A lot higher?
Let's see, he went ninth. Would you take him over Blake Griffin, James Harden, Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry?
Nope.
Probably not at this point.
Yep, he probably goes ahead of Jonny Flynn and Jordan Hill, and definitely Hasheem Thabeet, but you could make the exact same case for Brandon Jennings, Gerald Henderson, Tyler Hansbrough, Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Darren Collison, Roddy Beaubois, DeJuan Blair...
You get the point.
In my books, BC still has a lot to prove before I can jump back on any bandwagon.
And with Marc Stein's ESPN.com report yesterday, there's a good possibility he might not even get a chance.
So while Step 1 might be admitting you have a problem, for me, Step 2 is far more important.
Step 2 is traditionally "coming to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity," but in my books, for the future of the Toronto Raptors, this second step goes like this:
"Now that I've admitted I have a problem, I'm going to make changes to show that I'm indeed going to fix said problem."
And if BC sticks around, it's this second step that I'll wait on before I can truly take off my skeptic hat.
84 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Buddhafan, I’ve had MUCH more rantish rants than that ha ha! You know that! Roko Ukic, Hedo, Hoffa – they inspired REAL rants ;)
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice Rant
Nice is kind of like a favorable vanilla.
Not extreme.
Nice Rant.
It was a compliment. Geez
I know ha ha – hence the ;)
Which is kind of weak now that I think about it.
Humour attempts via comment posting is tough.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Chisholm said it best...
What good does it do to demonize Colangelo for the past? None. Is his inability to surround Chris Bosh with adequate talent or even keep Bosh at all a fireable offense? Yes, by NBA standards that is certainly a fireable offense. So let’s say the Raptors fire him, who should they hire to replace him?
http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=362993
I think he is fireable. It is justified. But what are the Raptors gaining by doing so? MLSE have demonstrated that when put in charge of picking a captain they often sink the ship in the process.
Totally Agree
I just read Chisholm’s article and I think he makes a valid point. Colangelo is really the best GM option out there right now. If he’s let go who will the MLSE get to run this organization…certainly no one with the experience/relationships/CBA knowledge (I believe he’s been through 2/3 iterations in his 16+ years as a GM) than Colangelo! If MLSE can keep him on a three year contact they should do it! That would be enough time for this rebuild to bear some fruit!
One other note.
Isn’t not firing BC, settling?
Yeah, BC has a lot of experience, but so does Rob Babcock. Anyone want him back?
I mean, are we truly condoning his extension based on the fact that “he’s bad, but it could be worse?”
It could be better!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Continuity counts
I know I’ve read articles where past players had complained about coaching changes/GM changes/new directions of the organization. This younger core is promising, they need to be developed and I don’t necessarily think a better GM is in the pool out there now than what we’ve got in Colonel.
He’s the “the devil you know…”
I am a bit agnostic about Colangelo’s future. I think he is starting to make smarter moves as he comes to grips with the kind of team the fans want to see. I think he came into the job off the success in Phoenix thinking that he could follow the same formula to success. In my opinion, a lot of his mistakes where based on that faulty assumption.
Based on his moves to bring in guys like the Johnsons, Reggie and even Ed and DeRozan, I would say he is learning that Toronto is a fanbase that wants the steak more than the sizzle. If he moved Bargnani and brought in a more defense-oriented centre that should cement the impression that he is more in tune with the fans than he was when he arrived.
The main downside to dumping Colangelo, is that you would lose the “market experience” that he has build up. A second disadvantage is that MLSE could easily choose someone worse (but that is too depressing to think about).
I love how everyone forgets how panned the Amir Johnson signing was even 3/4 of the way through the season. Did Amir have a decent season? Yes. Could the Raptors have signed him to a more favourable contract? Absolutely. That is the problem with BC, he continually overpays people which puts them in a position where they have to play above their current levels (i.e. grow into the contract) rather than pay them at a favourable rate to the team and have them exceed their contracts. I still think the Raptors would have been better served letting GS sign him (i believe he was a restricted FA but if I am wrong, it doesn’t completely change anything) then match it.
As for the other Johnson, his numbers were better than Kleiza’s (mainly shooting percentage, blocks, steals and assists) but his per was still below the league average (granted in only 25 games) and for a starter on a team desperate for offense, he averaged less than 10 points per game playing the teams shallowest position. I agree he is a relatively low risk option of Toronto but I am not sold that he is anything more than a 8th or 9th guy on any decent team and until 5 years from now when we see how bad (or good) this draft turns out to be we won’t know whether the trade was worth it. To me it was another short term move to make it look like BC knew what he was doing when I am now starting to think maybe he did ride his daddy’s coat tails in Phoenix.
Ask the advanced stats gurus around here. Amir is value for money and was even before he signed. If you think he is over-payed you should take the issue up with D-Stance et al.
Amir Johnson is actually the poster child for a properly-compensated player. He’s worth every cent and then some.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 25, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
This mentality baffles me. So let’s keep the GM with the fatally, fundamentally flawed philosophy of the game, who is terrible talent evaluator (look at the free agent and re-signings since he’s been here: Kapono, Turkaglu, Bargnani, Kleiza, etc.) because we fear the unknown. My position is IT CAN"T GET WORSE! They won 22 f’n games last year!!!!!
As you know MAS, I’m in the same camp as you.
There are TONS of examples of successful GM’s that were “no-names” before their current positions. Everyone’s scared of losing Colangelo’s “league-wide mystique” but I’m more afraid of five more years of 30 win seasons!
I think it’s time though to indeed investigate “other options,” and that means digging into some realistic candidates over the next few weeks here at the HQ.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Briliiant
Lookforward to reading that! Two things I would love to read about and discuss in this forum:
- Realistic potential BC replacements
- Realistic potential trade deals for Bargnani
This and draft stuff should be the focus over the next little while (in my most humble opinion).
+1
The uncertainty of the CBA, the Raptors management and coaching (in addition to the draft) could provide for some excellent disucssions this summer. Looking forward to it.
Also, I think McGateway said he wanted an entire post on MAS11’s genetalia. Think you guys can make that happen for him?
Ha ha ha…yep, anything’s possible at the HQ.
Hell, a couple offseasons ago I wrote a post on the importance of Marcus Banks.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Everybody knows...
…Mas has no genitalia
by CamHilton on Apr 21, 2011 9:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm a realist and...
The next Sam Presti is not out there!!!
Hasn’t this franchise had enough rookies (players/coaches/GM’s) cut their teeth, gain experience and then leave…Keep the vet GM!
wouldn't a realist say
the next Sam Presti IS out there but we don’t know where he is yet?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 21, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to say something along those lines Not So Friendly…I DO think the next Presti, Morey or even Cho is out there, and we’re going to try and dig up some of these realistic options over the next while.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
This would be like BC resigning Smitch if the team had missed the playoffs his first year because he couldn’t find anyone better. This is an opportunity to make a regime change without having to pay two people to do the same job with only one of them actually doing anything. Bringing in a new GM now also gives Triano one more season until his contract expires and allows the new GM to evaluate what is actually in the organization (coaches, scouts etc) in that time. Even though I understand the reasoning behind re-upping BC, this team is going nowhere fast anyways so we might as well truly start from scratch.
MLSE have demonstrated that when put in charge of picking a captain they often sink the ship in the process.
Great line and I completely agree – tomorrow’s post will be discussing the case for and against keeping BC, but a big piece is that if indeed BC goes, then what?
I’m going to disagree with Tim to a certain extent though.
The point of bringing up the past isn’t to demonize BC, but unfortunately in any occupation, you’re judged by results, and for that, you have to look at the past. Sure, Colangelo might completely turn things around next year and have the team win 50 games, but based on his past, that looks extremely unlikely.
However again, to your first point, if indeed your evaluation deems BC a failure by whatever standards you’re measuring him against, then you better have a plan B in place.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
topic
Could not agree more !!!
I guess what scares me is that we have too many sitting ducks,BC,JT,coaching staff.
We require now more than ever some continuity…
Is Kelly going to be the brain thrust behind this week draft ?
The only constant is HQ & RR, I sometimes feel without knowing the ins and outs of the organization,that the bloggers are more in touch with our needs then the so called brains of the entire operation.
Having said all that:
Irving and Williams will be gone !!!! who is the most NBA ready big ?
I’ve tried researching and I cant seem to put a finger on any of the bigs ?
Food for thought?
I dont want to hijack your topic but…..
Think I’ll get into this some next week but the draft is an interesting situation.
I truly believe that the Raps need a top 2 spot, after that, it gets really murky. In fact if this draft indeed plays out like 2000 or some of the other lackluster ones, I’m starting to lean towards throwing mock drafts into the shredder and hoping the Raptors pick based on need to a certain extent.
I’m not advocating picking a big guy just because the team needs a C, but there are players in this draft with intangibles and upside that I’d strongly consider; guys like Alec Burks, Kawhi Leonard and Chris Singleton.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Anyone Want To Try Amir's Ice Cream
Maybe he should be in the gym, at the doctor or in the training room and not spending all of his time making ice cream.
-——————————————————
Amir’s Cold Creation
TORONTO RAPTOR AMIR JOHNSON CELEBRATES ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF COLD STONE CREAMERY AT 1094 BLOOR STREET WEST IN TORONTO
Proceeds from Johnson’s Signature Creation donated to The Remix Project
Cold Stone Creamery, the Ultimate Ice Cream Experience, is celebrating their one year anniversary at 1094 Bloor Street West in Toronto and Toronto Raptor Amir Johnson is dropping in on the party. Johnson will visit the Toronto location to mix his very own ice cream creation using Cold Stone Creamery’s premium ice cream and countless mix-ins such as candy, fruit, nuts and other toppings. Fans of Amir Johnson and Cold Stone Creamery will get the chance to vote for their favourite creation on AmirJohnson.com and on Twitter @IamAmirjohnson.
The winning combination will be named "Amir’s Cold Creation" and will be available at the Dufferin and Bloor Cold Stone location until the end of May. Proceeds from the sale of each creation will benefit The Remix Project, an organization created in order to help level the playing field for young people from disadvantaged, marginalized and under served communities.
more on link
http://amirjohnson.com/amirs-cold-creation/
There is even an add for it. His name is under the date on the box.
Re-signing Amir Johnson was a must considering the team didn’t know what it would get from Reggie Evans or Ed Davis, had struck out on Tyson Chandler, and sorely needed some rebounding and shot-blocking beside Andrea Bargnani.
Amir Johnson was signed 11 days before the Chandler trade was attempted, and rumors leaked out. It was a couple more days before the trade fell apart. He is a good, young, developing player who has shown improvement every year he’s been here. Don’t know what else you want from an eye to the future point of view. He rebounds and shot-blocks, not to mention scores very efficiently – these are reasons to sign any player, not reasons to dismiss the signing as a short term fix.
Moving Hedo was also a no-brainer…
Moving Hedo was a no-brainer. But the return could easily have been an Arenas or Rashard Lewis with a long and massive contract – instead a deal was found and consummated that saw a useful piece with a shorter contract return – as such clearing future cap room with an eye to the future.
Wright one could argue was indeed a move made with an eye on the future, but remember that Marco Belinelli was hardly a 10-year vet. No, I’d say this move was made out of positional need (remember, the Raptors essentially had no SF with Hedo being shown the door) than a need to rebuild for the future.
The Julian Wright deal, at least in my eyes, was a low-risk, high reward situation. Colangelo had Belinelli on the team to evaluate up close, didn’t like what he saw (neither did I, to be honest), and traded a young player with (as he saw it) limited upside for a young player with unknown upside. These sorts of deals are made only with the future in mind, as it is a gamble based on potential. Also, at the time of the deal, the Raptors had signed Kleiza, and had Weems and DeRozan as potential backups at the three, since Barbosa was set to play the 2, and Jack was still with the team (and of course, Belinelli, up until the trade). As such, there was no gaping hole at the 3. In fact, your suggestion that not having a ‘true 3’ is pretty much void, considering this team’s recent penchant for playing tweeners at all sorts of positions – Hedo was a 3-4, Jack, Beli, Barbosa, Bayless are 1-2s, DeRozan, JJ, and Weems can all play both wing positions, Bargnani has been playing C, when he may well be a PF (who knows at this point). Even Amir was a bit of a 3-4 coming into the league. Besides Ed Davis and Jose, do we even have a ‘true’ anything on this roster?
And the Linas Kleiza signing?
This one was made firmly on improving the team in the short-term, a stop-gap if you will with only Julian Wright as a true 3 on the roster.
I agree that the Kleiza deal was more of an impact-now deal, but he was a player the GM liked, and got signed to a fairly reasonable deal (honestly I was surprised how reasonable it was – definitely an improvement from BC in that area) – unfortunately, injuries caused some issues with his play even before he went down for the season. He underperformed to be sure, but I’ll wait on his return to shape before I judge that deal too harshly – the biggest detriment to his contract right now is his serious injury, and injuries can happen to anyone.
Oh…and of course, the big fork in the rebuilding season potato comes from the fact that during out time at the Raptors’ pre-season media session Colangelo refused to call this season a “rebuilding one.”
Ummm… he’s gotta sell tickets. People don’t want to hear that the team is rebuilding. Even if the illusion only lasts for a quarter of the season, and the hoi pilloi figure out that ‘retooling’ means rebuilding, the more early ticket sales the better. If he had no one signed on the roster, and planned to play a bunch of promising 5-year-olds until they developed into superstars, he STILL wouldn’t come out and say he was rebuilding during preseason – that’s front gate suicide.
Kleiza deal
Overall, excellent points.
I was very happy when Amir was re-signed. Hopefully, he can solve his ankle issues because he is an excellent 3rd big in my opinion.
Regarding the Kleiza deal, it seemed pretty good when he was killing it in international play in the summer, but then when he struggled through injury during the season it started to look pretty bad. It’s a shame about the injury, because the 3-point shooting that a healthy Kleiza might have brought to the team would have been pretty useful. If the Raps succeed in trading Bargnani, then Kleiza may actually be a better fit in a year or so when he is back to 100% (assuming he is able to recover).
Totally agree.
I really think part of the issue with Kleiza was his redundancy to a certain degree. He and Bargs offer similar skillsets and I’d argue that Kleiza brings more to the table given his salary and position, not to mention rebounding.
So I too think he takes a jump once Andrea is dealt.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say dhackett that your comment regarding Amir is the most damning indictment of this article. If you are going to criticize BC you have to at least have your facts straight.
Woah, woah, woah it was coming!
Ok…in order:
Yep, Amir is an eye on the future to a certain extent. But let me ask you, what other choice did the team have? Drew Gooden? The team NEEDED another big. Yes the Chandler situation went down a bit after that, my bad, should have tracked that down, but my point is that Amir could be viewed as a move towards the future, but you can’t say that was the ONLY reason the move was made.
Next up, completely valid point although isn’t the opposite then true too? Couldn’t you argue that BC could have done BETTER and got a completely expiring contract and therefore an even bigger move towards the future? Sure, maybe not realistic, but I don’t think taking on Rashard Lewis is either. My point here is that again, it’s hard to say that this move was made in a vacuum in terms of “we did it for the future.” I’d argue it was done more for the present in terms of getting the squeaky wheel off the shopping cart!
Totally disagree with you on the next point. I’ll have to dig it up but I remember Colangelo SPECIFICALLY noting that Wright was acquired as another option at the 3 in addition to the other rationale you noted.
And my comment on Kleiza wasn’t a judgement of his ability or play. It was simply a statement that his signing too couldn’t be viewed as a “move towards the future.”
Really, some great stuff dhackett. Always happens when you write something – lots more left unsaid so great to have readers make note of it to further discuss. My point overall though was I personally didn’t see very many clear “rebuild” signs until things got ugly halfway through the season.
So again, I’m not ready to throw faith back in the man I formerly referred to as “the Legomaster” just yet…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Hedo Trade
Let’s also not forget that the Hedo trade was completed only when Hedo’s agent became the GM of the Suns. I don’t think the importance of this point can be understaded. If it wasn’t for Hedo’s agent trading for him, it may very well have been a bad for bad (i.e. Arenas) type deal.
I guess theoretically the ideal is Hedo gets traded for pure cap space, say for a TPE. This of course would never happen. On the other hand, at the time some of the most predominant fan trade suggestions included players like Arenas, so I don’t think it is all that far-fetched to say that was the expected outcome. Wasn’t everyone here delighted when Hedo got traded for Barbosa? I was, and it sure wasn’t because Barbosa is fast. It was the shorter contract (by 2 full years!) that delighted me. I guess maybe its just my view that that move was beneficial for the future. Like I said, Hedo was going to get moved (for the present) but what came back was indicative of an eye for the future. (Although, as MAS11 so eloquently points out, BC fell backwards into the conditions for that trade to occur).
As for Amir… team needed another big… and Colangelo seemed confident he could trade for one – hence the Chandler trade negotiations. I’m pretty sure that directly after drafting Ed Davis, with Reggie back to full health, that if the team didn’t see Amir as a contributor down the road, they wouldn’t have signed him, especially to such a long contract. Also, keep in mind that even if a move is made to sign a slightly older player (say, Kleiza) who isn’t part of the youth movement, it doesn’t mean it is not made with an eye for the future. Assets are assets, and quality talent can be moved for decent return. So even IF Amir was signed to fill a big-man spot, the fact that he was signed to a long deal shows that he was the guy they wanted. The fact that the guy they wanted is a) fairly young, b) improving every year, and c) one of the most productive players in the past couple seasons for the club can only be a good thing.
Anyway, your faith is yours to place it where you will. I see signs of rebuilding, and did as far back as the end of last season. Colangelo of course made some attempts to add assets, but none of the moves that were rumored or came to pass jeopardized the future of this team – which to me is a sign that BC is thinking differently than he has in the past.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 21, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
the biggest issue with the Hedo debate
is its like praising your friend for cleaning up the shit on floor, when he was the one who took the dump.
Hedo deal could have been worse, it could have been better, it shouldn’t have needed to be in the first place.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 21, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Game, set, match.
Agree 100% and that first line made me laugh out loud as I watch the Pacers and Bulls nearly come to blows.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That was awesome.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2011 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
Though he does have a point, most of NSFS’s comparisons involve excrement. No matter the argument, he always seems to back it up with some sort of reference to fecal matter.
Solid point, disturbing frame of mind.
I don't think
my comparisons involve alot of excrement, but if they do maybe I do have some mental issues to work out….
… but while we are on the topic…..
…. much like a NBA franchise at somepoint being bad, taking a dump is one thing you can’t escape. You can try to hide it, you can try to wait it out a while, but its inevitable. The question isn’t whether you do it or not, but how it comes out. Does it make you feel lighter and more comfortable, or is it creating a burning ring of fire? And I’ll tell you, I feel like BC has been feeding us some spicy mexicana.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 21, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Aw man that was great...
I feel “lighter and more comfortable” after reading that…
I think that while I am Julian (Assange) Wright fan.... the fact that he has to be qualified for $4Mil (I think) totally sux...
I like JW I really do… but he’s not the answer to our problems at SF.
He can pass, he’s a great defender and I like him around either hoop.
The man tries hard… (or is it just another contract year …uggh)
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
so in retrospect the Bellinelli deal sux if JW is qualified... and we have cap rooom if he isn't...
or we sign and trade him to GSW or the Nets…
…and the dance goes on…. as he and KHump beat us in some exhibition game in Mogadishu…
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
…. as he and KHump beat us in some exhibition game in Mogadishu…
Awesome.
Another point though here in all seriousness. I’m watching guys like Marco and Jarrett play key roles for their club in the post-season, roles I truly believe they would have played in Toronto had they been complementary pieces instead of ones thrust into such a spotlight.
To me this goes back to an inability by BC to acquire previous top-notch talent that could produce.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s a good point – it’s really hard to judge past raptor players based on the teams they’ve moved on to – since they almost always play a smaller, more defined role there. That seems to be what TO has had these past few years – the best backups and role players in the league – they were just forced to be starters and stars on this team – hence the disastrous results.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 21, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
What about Hump?
He seems to be playing a bigger role for NJ than he ever did for the Raps and he seems to be flourishing (averaging a double double or close to it). That is pretty frustrating to watch. Is that a result of maturity, better coaching or the “Kardashian Effect”?
That seems to be what TO has had these past few years – the best backups and role players in the league – they were just forced to be starters and stars on this team – hence the disastrous results.
I’d like to post a full blog entry on this…very succinct summary of what seems to happen over and over. Every season there seems to be a guy like Jamario Moon who gets thrust into a much bigger role than he should be playing. Even Roko Ukic…ugh.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
dhackett for the win
Let’s remember that Kleiza brought that tough guy thing to the team it was (outside of Reggie) badly lacking. I thought he played well early on till he was slowed by injury.
by CamHilton on Apr 21, 2011 9:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh do tell CamHilton, explain to us how Kleiza “brought that tough guy thing” and how you measure his level of play that allowed you to conclude that he played “well”? I’m intrigued.
Sure thing
His stat lines for games Nov 1-11 and then from Nov 16-26 are all pretty decent for a 3. He had several decent rebounding performances in those games and from what I saw he looked like a hard nosed player.
Given how focussed you are on Bargs (and in screeching as soon as possible in every post here about your man-love-gone-sour for him) I am not surprised you didn’t pay attention to Kleiza’s non-suckitude early in the season.
I’m not saying I love Kleiza’s game, but man is yours ever tired.
by CamHilton on Apr 21, 2011 10:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Realy???
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/linas_kleiza/game_by_game_stats.html
Take another look at the actual numbers from November. Nevermind that you are taking a small sample size, its not even that impressive, in fact pretty below average. So thanks for coming out and all…
Reading comprehension
…is clealry not your strong suit.
I said that Kleiza started off playing tough – not that he started off as above average, or any other synonym for laudable.
My only point for using the stats was to note that he had a few good games in early and late Nov where if you saw him play you could accurately use the adjective ‘tough’.
If you review the posts (here and elsewhere) at the time of his aquisition you’ll see his toughness and hardnosed play being remarked upon.
But that would require a level of literacy you have yet to demonstrate.
by CamHilton on Apr 22, 2011 7:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you also said
“thought he played well early”
and
“His stat lines for games Nov 1-11 and then from Nov 16-26 are all pretty decent for a 3”
those are mutual exclusive with the idea of “playing tough”.
Mas’ reading comprehension is perfectly fine… what you need to do is explain what you are referring to better. Or try not to back track on your initial statements.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 23, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Scrambled eggs for brains...
CamHilton, before you start casting aspersions, you should sit quietly, collect your thoughts and try to focus. Then, maybe you won’t make yourself look like such an ass. You did ineed say the following:
“I thought he played well early on…”
“His stat lines for games Nov 1-11 and then from Nov 16-26 are all pretty decent for a 3. He had several decent rebounding performances in those games and from what I saw he looked like a hard nosed player.”
Not sure why you would dispute this as it is right above in black and white…
Now I provided you a link to the game stats for November for you to review so you could maybe step back from your statements in a dignified manner. However, either you can’t interprate statistics or are thinking no one else would take the time to look. Well I did:
Kleiza shot 44% from the field, 21% from three point range and grabbed an average of a whopping 3.5 rebounds per game during the games from Nov 1 -11 and 16 – 26. So that is not what I (or anyone) would call playing well or decent rebounding numbers.
Again, thanks for stopping by little guy… I would stop now before you really make yourself look silly.
Appreciate the article
but i look forward to the days when Raptors HQ start writting high quality, objective and non biased articles on the raptors like they did before. I keep coming back bec the opinions of the readers are generally pretty interesting and some of the articles are excellent but over the past yr especiallty the articles have become a bash BC and Bargs and raps organization fest and that sucks to read everyday; its really getting old guys.
Hey can you guys start covering the raps more objectively and with better content than the same old same old bash BC, bash bargs etc etc>>. Can we read positive and interesting articles like we use too back in the earlies>>>
Thx
If you don’t get results in your professional career, chances are your performance review will suffer. And essentially that is what’s happening here with the articles, comments, etc – reviewing the performance of a GM whose moves were responsible for the current 22-win season.
There are a lot of positives with this current squad and I think they get mentioned a lot (Amir Johnson, Ed Davis, Jerryd Bayless, etc). But it’s hard to turn a blind eye to the rest of the mess.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Appreciate the feedback Member29.
Unfortunately what’s happened this past year and even recently has dictated the content and I too am looking forward to a breath of fresh air. I think that starts soon with draft and free agent talk, and I’d love for the management situation to get resolved so we can make like it’s 2008 all over again.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
its amazing
how something is only “unbiased” if certain people agree with it.
If you say anything negative about one side or the other you are now biased.
The great thing about the majority of the German population from the 1930s to the end of WWII is they were unbiased. They never said anything negative about the Reich or other nations. They ignored what was really happening and went about their lives with their mouths shut. Really worked out well for the gays, jews, blacks, eastern europeans and communists of Europe.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 21, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
NSFS on fire with the analogies.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention the Germans themselves...
Which is extra relevant as Bargnani/Colangelo supporters that are “unbiased” in their support will end up continuing to watch an unsuccessful franchise if the Bargnani/Colangelo regime continues.
Real Classy
Holocaust references being praised by the usual troop of pessimists.
pessimist?
not at all. I’m very optimistic this organization can become good again (down the road) once Bargnani is moved. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on ones view) that may very well mean that BC also needs to be “moved” aswell.
But really the point is lets not just “look at the bright side” while the ship is sinking. I’d rather find answers to keeping the ship afloat than dream I’m swimming with mermaids while drowning.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 22, 2011 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair point
My apologies. Let’s hope the grim tone in BC’s voice is a sign of changes on the horizon.
Speaking of the draft...
I thought the Pistons had already claimed both second round picks from the Delfino trade but going over recent draft history, apparently not.
So Toronto has only their lottery pick to use this season, which is a tough pill to swallow considering this is definitely a year where a ruby (not diamond) in the rough could land in the early second round.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Though pill true...
But really… BC has had some the worst luck through his tenure in regards to timing.
Had the no.1 pick in a draft with no clear cut no.1… no.3 (for now) pick in a draft with hardly any top tier talent… traded away a second round pick which turns our to coincide with the team at a nadir. And I’m sure there are more instances.
You have to be lucky to be good as a GM. Hard luck for BC. An excuse? No. Never. Anyone who blames their luck doesn’t have the mental make-up to lead. But maybe Toronto is just cursed by the basketball Gods… Gods who are clearly xenophobic!
by lessthanzero on Apr 21, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
A few things
In response to comments here and in previous threads I’ve read and this article along with previous ones…
1. We have been willing to judge BC poorly based on the fact that the team HE put together produced a 22 win season. Yes, 22 win seasons suck. However, if he had made a trade or a signing that put us at 35 wins, would we be saying he did a better job this season or a worse job? Judging a GM of a rebuilding team based on # of wins is ridiculous. Judging them based on the direction they’ve chosen? Much more appropriate.
2. I think BC is probably not into advanced stats like most of us, and takes stats like scoring average more seriously than he should, but I think we take tiny comments he makes way out of proportion. The Kobe comparison wasn’t the brightest one but everyone (including BC) knows that Derozan isn’t the next Kobe. In fact, his next comment involved something like, “I hope Derozan works on his 3-point shot. With his work ethic he could really be great. Do I think he’ll ever be an elite 3-point shooter? No. But I hope he’s listening to this and uses it over the summer as motivation.” It’s very evident he can see that Derozan can improve and should improve. He mixed in praise with constructive criticism. The Kobe comparison is being blown out of proportion.
3. The “Andrea can be a better rebounder” comment: Anyone in the world can become a better rebounder at any point in time. Especially when there’s so much room to improve. He didn’t say “Andrea will be a great rebounder”. He mentioned things about how rebounding is a “desire” issue and is related to effort. These are all sentiments we can agree with. I know there are games when I’ve seen Andrea play with more passion – defend better, rebound better, even take charges. Andrea CAN improve. Doesn’t mean he will – but doesn’t mean BC is lying to us.
4. This is an extension of my second point – BC probably uses stats like scoring average because the average fan can more easily relate to these things. It’s unfair to evaluate BC’s basketball knowledge based on press conferences. It is MORE fair to evaluate his basketball knowledge on his transactions. Some have been terrible, some have been great. You swing and you miss sometimes. For all we know there may not have been better deals available at the time of a certain signing, and inaction was probably not an option, given the fact Bosh’s contract was going to end.
5. RE: Derozan being taken earlier in the draft – Yes, he probably would have been. Your counterpoint was that a lot of players would also be taken earlier, but for the most part, they are all very good players. Grouping Derozan with them does not put him to shame.
I enjoy a lot of the things I read on this site and I respect the knowledge of a lot of the commenters and writers…your opinions are clear, and that’s fine, I just think it would be beneficial to see the other side of arguments.
If you’ve taken the time to read this, thank you lol
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I wonder if Georgis Printezis would have been taken earlier in the draft?...hmmm..
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
ROFLMAO!!!
STILL LAUGHING!!!!! LOLOLOLOL
Comment of the week!
Too funny? lol... How about this:
Colangelo: If we could have taken Bargnani any higher in the draft – then we would have…
'....as a child, I dreamt of being a baseball.'
Nothing is as simplistic as you are making it sound though. I will give you an example of how spin doctoring can bite you in the butt. Brian Burke made a horrific trade (giving away two potentially high draft picks for Kessel) but his reasoning was that he thought the team was better than it was. Isn’t it the job of the GM to know that his team is not very good? BC has shown time and time again that he is willing to say stupid things to cater to the average fans (anyone remember the “less rebounds needed cause we will hit more shots” comment after signing Kapono) but it really doesn’t make sense to open himself open to criticism from knowledgeable fans and media (i.e. not Doug Smith) by making said comments.
To answer your individual points.
1. He really isn’t being judged on the season as most of us knew that they needed to have a bad season or two in order to turn things around. The issue is that BC continuously made statements to the effect that this was a playoff team when most people on this site knew (with the exception of a two week period in December when everyone took some Acid and thought they were in 2001) that they were going to miss by a long shot.
2. The fact that BC is not into advanced metrics should disturb the crap out of you. I am not a fan of most of them as they are currently constructed but then I am not a GM of a basketball team going nowhere. Even I know that if you use these stats correctly you can gain a lot of insight into the mechanics of the game and get a better picture of how someone is going to fit on your roster.
3. It is true that Barney could become a better rebounder, but it is also true that I could meet Jessica Alba and we could fall in love and have 30 kids together and then add Halle Berry for continuous threesomes until we all die but I would say that is unlikely to happen. Barney had every reason in the world to improve his rebounding and instead regressed. That should disturb you as much as BC’s lack of interest or understanding in advanced metrics (and my fat ass naked with Jessica and Halle).
4. Scoring average maybe accessible to the average fan but isn’t it wrong to misinform the average fan instead of educating them? I mean I guess it suits BC to have the average fan remain painfully ignorant of the fact that Barney is an inefficient scorer and a lousy focal point for a team but it really isn’t going to help to sell tickets in the long run if your GM looks like a dumb ass.
5. You are right that grouping Derozan with the other players mentioned is not a bad thing but I do no think BC was being realistic or honest when he said that (I believe he was trying to intimate that Derozan was a top 5 or 6 pick in that draft and you can just as easily make the argument the opposite way). Only time will tell of course but so far I am not sure I can buy his argument.
Masai Ujiri
Sadly guys I think we lost out on our future GM. His name was Masai Ujiri. Can we all agree he learned from BC’s Chris Bosh mistakes and done well for himself in Denver.
+1
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
BC and Bargs
I am not a fan of BC’s body of work in Toronto, but I have generally liked what he has done since he realized that the big brontosaurus would be taking his talents to South Beach.
I agree that BC is not the best judge of talent, but he is definitely dumb and is very capable of getting a deal done when motivated.
I am feeling pretty confident that BC will trade Andrea on draft day. I think he will want to deal him in case he A) gets fired a few days later if he does not deal Bargs OR the more likely B) he gets fired a few days later either way. BC realizes that he now has a rep as being too high on/attached to Bargs. If he trades Bargs there will be a lot less emphasis on the Bargnani love affair when he goes looking for a new job. Also, in the event that he BC stays, he knows that most customers are tired of the indifference of bargnani.
Since Bargs will still be BYC at the draft, trading Bargs would be an easier task if another contract is attached. I am betting he tries to attach Jose, but will end up having to settle for attaching Barbosa.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Apr 21, 2011 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I truly hope that’s the case…guess we’ve got a few months to find out.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
HUGE point...
Tough pill to swallow too.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 21, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice catch bsonny
I’m surprised no one has brought this up sooner. It certainly makes watching the Nuggets a little tougher.




























