Step 1 - Admitting You Have a Problem - Raptors HQ Breaks Down Bryan Colangelo's Year-End Presser
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 9:00 AM EDT
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PrintThe HQ takes a look at Bryan Colangelo's year-end discussion with the media, and focuses in on what BC's comments mean for a certain Italian center...
Hi.
I'm Bryan Colangelo.
I'm a two-time NBA Executive of the year, and the man responsible for building the foundation of the Phoenix Suns' "7 Seconds or Less" offense, as well as turning the Toronto Raptors from bottom feeder to playoff contender in my first season with said group.
I may have made some mistakes recently, but I've got things firmly back on track, and there's no better man for this rebuild that we've started.
While the above words were never spoken at yesterday's "End of Season Presser" with the current Raptors' GM, they might as well have been.
If you saw the footage, all available at Raptors.com, you saw a man pleading his case to remain in charge of a team that won 22 games last season, third worst in franchise history, and in serious need of an infusion of true talent.
However along with the pleading, there was a dose of humility that I hadn't seen from the former Legomaster in quite some time.
Sure, he compared DeMar DeRozan to Kobe Bryant, and maddenly managed to squeeze Jorge Garbajosa into his discussion of "what's gone wrong," but there was also a breath of fresh air as BC laid a few things bare regarding his roster's shortcomings.
Most notably, was his take on Andrea Bargnani.
"The enigma of all enigmas" he called him and went on to say that, "he has gotten better offensively, has proven to be a legitimate 20-point scorer in the game. Clearly, he has not done the things that we all like him to do, which is defending the ball and getting rebounds....He's far from the perfect player and is a valuable asset to the organization"
So yes, still a bit of a sales pitch for any GM's that were within earshot shall we say, but if you recall, this is a far cry from his take on Bargs in previous end-of-year sessions.
More on Bargs:
"What we have right now is a considerable asset for this organization...mis-cast as a five because we don't have anybody to man that position". "Big guys take longer [to develop] than most...I don't know if he's ever going to be a better defensive player than he is right now....can he be a better rebounder? Absolutely, but he's not [focused] on it....he's not going to be a good rim-defender...anyway, you probably don't want a guy like that jumping up and down at the risk of picking up injury." "He is a matchup nightmare of every team we play night in and night out and I guarantee that he's the #1 [target for defenses]".
Media Question: Are you getting a defensive five to overcome Bargnani's deficiencies or would you get one anyway?
"Probably both....I had that guy last year in Tyson Chandler" "Lot of people want to make the Andrea situation about me and that's nonsense".
Really, we could go through the rest of BC's presser with a fine-toothed comb, but in my opinion, these segments regarding Bargs are the real meat and potatoes of things so to speak.
Because outside of Andrea's use this year and the Kleiza signing (which to no surprise, BC defended in his presser), Colangelo made some solid moves.
While I wasn't initially a fan of the James Johnson trade, Johnson did some a little something and as the talent of the upcoming draft continues to dwindle, it is now very unlikely that Toronto could have drafted any impact player with Miami's very late first-round pick.
And the drafting of Ed Davis, although somewhat lucky, acquisition of Jerryd Bayless, and even smaller moves like retention of Joey Dorsey were fine examples of getting something for very little, reminiscent of Colangelo's early days with the club.
So let's go back to Andrea.
TSN.ca's Tim Chisholm recently pointed out that the drafting of Ed Davis and acquisition of grittier players like Amir Johnson and Jerryd Bayless were symbolic in that they were moves that went away from the Andrea Bargnani and Jason Kapono style of team-building, and I'd argue that perhaps then this shift in mentality means Bargs is finally on a much shorter leash.
He has to be.
We've argued that for two years at least now, and watching BC yesterday, and even listening to Jay Triano last Thursday, I just got the sense that they had had enough.
At some point your own cred starts to take too much of a hit and the reality is that no GM wants to be left holding the bag on a 22 win season.
However, all of that is great, but indeed it's just talk.
The old adage "actions speak louder than words" is more than appropriate here considering that we've heard Bargs talk about needing to improve his rebounding and defence before, we've heard Jay Triano call for more bench time if Andrea refused to improve defensively and we've sure as hell heard BC note Andrea's need to improve his all-around game all the while extolling the virtues of Bargnani's offensive repertoire.
As well, as a fan, it's tough to hear all of this now.
It's been evident for years that the idea of playing Andrea at the five, or pairing him with the likes of Chris Bosh was flawed, yet it hasn't been until this year that BC has admitted this.
In fact there hasn't been nearly enough made of this point.
I recall on numerous occasions going right back to after Andrea was drafted, that Colangelo assured fans and the media that Bargnani would be a 5 in this league, and now he's talking about the need to get a defensive center?
So I can't say the sudden change in tune sat well with me.
To a lesser degree, neither did the notation that the bulk of the trade exception acquired in exchange for Chris Bosh probably wouldn't be used, but I was expecting that from the moment the transaction took place last summer.
The bottom line is that Bargs has to go, as if you simplify things, there are only two choices here for the team; either they continue to play him at the 5, thus suffering the same defensive woes next year as they have the past, or they play him at the position apparently he should always have been playing, the 4, and that would come at the expense of Ed Davis and Amir Johnson.
It's hard to imagine the latter happening so really, unless the team is prepared to use him off the bench, I think thankfully the Bargina era is coming to a close.
Again, actions here speak louder than words, and with the impending labour situation and even the future of the team's management core up in air, any type of move is still potentially a long ways off, but yesterday's frankness was a necessary first step.
And to me, being able to move the road block that's been Mr. Bargnani would be the biggest argument yet for keeping BC around, and perhaps getting him back to his previous Legomaster status.
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This past week
has probably been one of the most exciting in years as a Raps fan. The team can actually START rebuilding now.
That said, I’m not gonna hold my breath. Until the next season starts and Andrea is either 1) not on the roster 2) coming off the bench. I’m going to expect its business as usual.
I still don’t buy that what BC values Andrea at is anywhere near where the rest of the league values Andrea…. and unless BC is truelly ready to cut his losses, AB may very well be in a Raps uni next year.
I do find it very interesting that we may actually find out where the rest of the league values Andrea. But, as I asked once before, if Andrea is not moved by the end of next season, is his trade value 0? (or atleast very little?)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 19, 2011 9:20 AM EDT reply actions
When looking at value for a 22 win team...
your trade value is more about cap flexibility and future assets. We don’t need a talent for talent trade.
Some great points here, again, leading to the somberness of my post.
Really, until we SEE some movement in regards to Bargs, it’s hard to get too excited. As I noted, there’s still a few major road blocks before we see what happens with this team’s core, so at present, we fans may have to sit back and wait.
And I agree NSFS – if Bargs isn’t moved, that’s a pretty good tell of either a) what his trade value is or b) how BC REALLY feels about him. I guess it’ll be our job to figure out which one is the truth.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Strangely somber recap
I agree with NSFS, this news conference should be one of the best news stories of the season for all Bargnani haters, not to mention for fans of a continued slow and steady rebuild. It sounds like for the first time the team is seriously looking at moving him. I’d say that is in everyone’s best interest, especially Ed Davis’.
PS. I would have thought that sinking into low-class cheap-shot territory with the “Bargina” references was beneath the RHQ.
Yeah – overall a good writeup, but the childish name-calling? I had to scroll to the top to check if it was D-Stance, but I was surprised to see it was Franchise!
by dhackett1565 on Apr 19, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Bargina
Sorry, wasn’t my intent to name-call, was more of a casual reference to a name he was called in error by a previous commentor, that I think we all found funny.
And unfortunately my prior experience with Colangelo dictated the post’s somberness because believe me, I WANT to get excited about the rebuild FINALLY getting under way.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I didn’t think you would mean it harmfully – it was funny when it was a mistake, but some users here are particularly adept at overusing jokes to the point of abuse.
Overall a good writeup – I think I will start getting excited about the rebuild closer to the draft lotto.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 19, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
OMG!!!
I get it, Bargina, it rhymes with vagina, insinuating that Bargs is a female.
A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!
Brilliant! ; )
Funny thing is I was always pronouncing it as Bar-GEE-Na…so I too missed the female anatomy joke!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Give me a break. I urge you to come up with one post where I’ve relied on childish name calling. My criticism of Bargnani has always revolved around statistical evidence and analysis.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha. If defense and rebounding are minute details, sure!
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry D-S, didn’t mean to insinuate you name-call – it was just a reference to what I find excessive Bargs bashing. Apologies.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 20, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya, let's just ignore the problem...
Because discussing Bargnani’s ineptitude is “Bargs bashing”…
Yeah, because making up nicknames like Bargina is constructive criticism and embodies the spirit of rational thinking. Clearly without name-calling, the Raptors will never get better.
Bargnani is a problem with this team – and maybe even the largest, but the amount of attention he gets is extremely disproportionate to his actual impact.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 20, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The most minutes, the most shots, the highest usage in crunch time despite poor returns, team is worse both offensively and defensively with him on the floor… ummm, I’d say he gets the appropriate amount of attention.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
First of all, he is THE problem that needs to be resolved for the Raptors to move forward and therefore the level of criticism he receives is directly proportionate to his influence in the Raptors losing ways.
- He’s the team’s highest paid player
- He occupies(occupied) the team’s most important position from a defensive/rebounding perspective (starting centre) and didn’t defend or rebound. Leading to the team being the worst defensive team in the NBA
- He regressed in many statistical categories this past season despite a more prominent role and more minutes/oportunity
- He was not held accountable for his lack of efforts and this had a trickledown effect on other player’s commitment and team chemistry as was in evidence by some of the post-season comments from players/coaches and the GM himself
- By not holding him accountable in terms of minutes played, he directly impacted the opportunities for the teams young forwards to play/develop
- In order to seriously commit to a viable rebuilding plan – considering two of the team’s "core young players" are PFs and the GM has said Bargnani can’t play centre – he needs to be traded
So based on the abovementioned points Bargnani is the most important issue to resolve and therefore the biggest problem the Raptors have. All this coupled with his complete disinterest in putting in a modicum of effort when on the court (have you ever seen him sweat, seriousl?) or dedication despite his average $10 mil per year salary over the life of his contract, I would say yes, the level of criticism is not only appropriate, but NECESSARY. It was necessary to have a sustained fan backlash in order to drive Colangelo to the point where he FINALLY openly criticised his golden child and by all accounts is resigned to the fact that trading Bargnani is the best thing for the franchise.
Finally, I find it strange that some are running to the defence of poor little Bargnani for "name calling". The same guy who takes fan’s money, and spits in their face and the faces of his teammates every time he’s on the court by not putting in even half the effort he should be. Poor, poor Bargnani, he of the $50 million dollar contract. He’s fortunate he has fans such as yourself to stand up for him. Poor, defenceless Bargnani, let’s all feel sorry for him… Pathetic. Give me a break…
I was going to reply to most of your points here, but realized they are irrelevant. I already said he is the biggest problem on the team. He is responsible for probably a good third of the problems with this team – in terms of his impact on defense, salary, positioning, and culture. The dismal finish to the season (without him) shows that he is by no means the only problem for this team. In no way would his removal immediately solve any of the bigger problems the organization faces, but it could be an important step.
However, of all the stats-and-otherwise based arguments that go on here, about 90% are centered around Bargnani – as such, disproportionate to how I feel he impacts the team, and as such get tiresome. That’s all I said. Oh, and I doubt that BC gives a fig what the more basketball savvy fans think about Bargs – the casual fan will always be the money maker – and since this website turned on him about two years ago, and he’s still here, I would consider that as proof.
In terms of name-calling… when did I defend Bargnani? Or suggest that nickname was ill-fitting? I simply said it was immature to call him that when there are so many reasonable arguments against him – why add an irrational attack to dilute the strong case to move him? Why make this emotional, rather than logical, when logic is enough? I guess I just have high standards for intelligent conversation – to which you and most others here are usually valuable contributors, in my view, even when we so often disagree – which I guess is why I react so strongly when instead of the rational and reasonable conversations I so enjoy here, some posters stoop to intentionally offensive, immature name-calling.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 20, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
“I already said he is the biggest problem on the team. He is responsible for probably a good third of the problems with this team – in terms of his impact on defense, salary, positioning, and culture.”
Thank you for agreeing with me. I interprate this to mean “yes, Bargnani is the biggest problem on this team and therefore it is quite reasonable and appropriate that the lion’s share of criticism here and in other spaces should be attributed to him”. Which is EXACTLY my point. As for the name calling. You’re making a big deal out of nothing… He’s a big mangina or Bargina, Plain and simple : )
I only use this to further illustrate and distill/capture the MOUNTAINS of statistical evidence that is available.
Bargnani may be the Raptors biggest problem, but you are not very observant if you think he is the only problem. Presumably your perspective is broader than that.
Look, of course Bargnani is not the root of EVERY problem on the Raptors. However, he is the largest single problem and impediment to success on the team. He is what they call in a sales environment "low hanging fruit". Which means, easy to resolve (trade him) with maximum returns. Resolving the Bargnani issue is the single fastest way to get back the right track as far as the rebuilding plan is concerned. This as well as the reasons I and Dstance listed above explain why it is reasonable and appropriate to levy the lion’s share of criticism against Bargnani. Especially when you have fans on this site that still, even after BC has admitted the opposite, contend that Bargnani is more valuable than he really is…
Just to piggyback on Mas' point
Think of this team like a house that’s very cold. The furnace is old and the windows probably need to be replaced, etc. But there is also a GIANT FREAKING HOLE in the side of the house.
Andrea is that hole.
You can do whatever you want to the furnace or the windows, but until you do something about that giant hole, your house is gonna be cold. Furthermore, it would be alot easier to determine how much fixing the furnace and windows need once that hole is addressed.
So while I get your point that the Bargnani issue is beaten into the ground, it needs to be resolved before we can move forward, because if Andrea isn’t moved, either to the bench or off the team entirely, all the other problems with this team are irrelevant….we’re still gonna be cold.
That hole in the wall will make it a lot easier to install the new furnace! :)
I suppose that one could argue DeRozan and EDavis are lucky that Bargnani is around. They can grow and make mistakes while the spotlight shines on Bargnani’s foibles. By the time Bargnani gets traded they have things figured out. Perhaps this was Colangelo’s brilliant plan to protect them all along! ;)
Yes, great news for fans of the Franchise that want to see a serious approach to rebuilding the Raptors
And Bargina is both appropriate and above board based on the individual we are refrancing, his style of play and “commitment” to doing the things necessary to win. If it offends your sensibilities, maybe you would prefer to watch golf or croquet? Good on you Franchise for calling a spade a spade. For those that criticize the use of this characterization – grow a pair.
Your extreme macho manliness makes your point so much stronger! I assume MAS stands for MASSIVE balls!
Pretty much ; )
But seriously, you’re being to sensitive…
So if Mas stands for massive balls...
…what does 11 stand for? The number of massive balls you have? Cause that is significantly lessens macho manliness and is more freakshowish. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Ding ding ding!
Seriously guys, they’re pretty spectacular…
anyone else notice..
No Calderon talk? Not even a mention of his bounce back year, or his top 5 assist rate?
It’s very un-colangelo to not brag about stuff like that!
maybe he’s also not in the plans for next year…
Or play defense or pull the trigger on shots or break down defenses the way they need him to. All that matters apparently is his assist rate is up.
Agree
Better year from Calderon, and I root for the guy, but anyone who thinks he’s a top-tier point-guard in this league is delusional. If we can move him this offseason for some cap-relief and a cheaper veteran player, I’d be thrilled.
I got the vibe that Colangelo touched on the biggest point of contention, Andrea Bargnani, but left others alone on purpose. So while Jose had a bounce-back season, it’s hard to trumpet a point guard that’s a major reason the team suffers the same defensive woes year after year.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought BC did mention Calderone.
It was around the same time he was talking about Barbosa. For the life of me, I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it wasn’t bad.
Actions speak louder than words...
Frankly, as refreshing as the Bargnani talk was, I am really surprised the HQ didn’t pick-up on what I thought was equally important… BC’s inaction. He mentioned that he had the opportunity to basically do what he’s done every other year… think short term to the detriment of the long term strategy.
Isn’t that what everyone here has been most critical of him for? His short term thinking? I think, whether you think he’s earned an extension or not, he has the right mentality to follow this rebuild through. I didn’t think he’d ever come around, but he has. And really, his approach is exactly the approach most fans would want a new GM to take: Bargs goes, think long term.
It’s easy to rail on a guy who’s down… but I think it says more about him that he’s willing to take the lumps to come out better on the other side.
Good points
At first I thought the James Johnson move might be a bit of a short term thing, but he is looking like a worthwhile gamble along the same lines as Bayless and Weems. They may not all pan out, but it’s worth a shot if even one of the turns out to be a long term contributor.
Yes, congratulations Mr. Colangelo
For doing what most of the fan base and most analysts have been saying you should do for 2 plus years now. Thanks so much for finally getting it. BARGS!
Right. Because the fans always know best.
I remember when Babcock said that he kept getting fans coming up to him tells him to draft Gerald Green.
For the sake of the Raptors as a franchise, I hope that they let basketball people make basketball decisions. Every fan clamouring for a new regime needs to be reminded that Mitch Kupchak was basically a dead man until the Pau trade. Doc Rivers couldn’t coach until Garnett arrived. Paxton was about to fired before Rose came along. Call for Pritchard, or Adelman, or Van Gundy all you want… the grass might not be any greener… and you’ll be continuing the revolving door tradition here in Toronto.
by lessthanzero on Apr 19, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
traded turk for barbosa and cap relief
Tried to get Tyson Chander and Matt Barnes
Picked up James Johnson
Traded for Jarryd Bayless
Got a 2nd round draft pick back for literally nothing
Locked up Amir Johnson aka Anti-Bargs
and yes one bad mistake – signing Klieza – although most frequenters of this site wanted Josh Childress… so…
everyone rails on him for being a home-run hitter who strikes out, yet here are a string of singles and doubles. And he looks ready to deal Bargs to cap off a text book rebuilding plan.
If we are judging him on whether he gets rid of Bargs or not – i think it’s a bit overblown when you look at the trend of his deals over this past year.
One Bad Mistake? Are you sleeping with him or something?
1.Barbosa cap relief trade was a complete fluke. It isn’t everyday that your problem child overpaid poster boy’s agent becomes a GM of another team. P.S. Barbosa did nothing to help this team move in the right direction so all we really got out of this deal was the future cap relief of less years of Barbosa.
2. The key word in your sentence was “Tried” the Tyson Chandler deal I give him props for and I still think Charlotte made a mistake not taking that deal. The Matt Barnes fiasco is nothing to be proud of. Have you forgotten that the parties forgot the basic rules of doing sign and trades? Sorry hard to give BC props for orchestrating a trade of a player that was illegal under NBA rules.
3. James Johnson has been an interesting find for sure but I am still not sure he is worth a draft pick even in a crappy draft. I agree we may not have ended up with a good player in this draft with the Miami pick but good players get drafted all the time in the 2nd round and that is approx what the talent level will be this year after the 10th pick. I think this is a wash because in a way it is like BC admitting he cannot draft anyone not in the lottery (and lets face it, he hasn’t drafted a steal or stud player yet).
4. Bayless is still a work in progress so I am not ready to praise BC yet for the move. Only time will tell on this one but Bayless having some good games at the end of the season means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
5. Not sure which pick you are referring to as at least according to RealGM they owe a pick from this year to Detroit for Carlos Delfino (yep still owed) and another pick in 2016 to Memphis (I don’t even remember what this was for).
6. The Anti-Barney as you referred to him could have been signed for less money though so I guess if overpaying the NBA leader in fouls per minute based on small sample of games at the end of last year is a good thing then yeah, BC did good here BARGS.
Look, at the end of the day this team is not going to bring in anyone else of substance to rebuild this team so they might as well let BC keep his job (It really hurt me to say that). It is just too bad they can’t get him to take a massive pay cut in the process.
Ummmm, tried to get Barnes with a made-up exception? You don’t get points for that.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Good recap drebans
I noted this in my post but for all my criticism of BC in the past, he actually did a nice job with the bunts and singles this season. However I don’t think we go overboard and say he was amazing in his role.
He acquired Turk in the first place, so it wasn’t like he moved a previous asset for an even better piece (like the Jeff Green for Kendrick Perkins swap.)
The small moves served more as examples of not rocking the boat, but I’ll wait for the real off-season (assuming no lock-out) before I start declaring him to have the train back on the tracks.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough
definitely agree – the hard part of the rebuilding process is ahead of the raptors
Too bad Orlando did not figure out in the off season that they needed Turk back. Marcin Gortat would have been perfect here!
A very good point, and you gotta think that Bargs actually would have been perfect at the 4 on Orlando, where he could be Rashard Lewis Part II.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t Ryan Anderson far more productive (and therefore more deserving) of a $50 million contract? Haha
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’ve established that Colangelo wins the smaller moves and generally blows draft picks and cap room / exceptions.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Colangelo’s draft record is not bad enough that you can say he “generally blows draft picks”. His worst area by far is FA signings followed by contract extensions.
Sorry, more detail needed: I will give Colangelo major props for the Ed Davis pick – but really that fell in his lap. His track record outside of that pick is pretty hit or miss. And it generally annoys me that he sees little to no value in late first round / 2nd round draft picks.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how it is hit and miss – first he was fairly solid in Phoenix. Here, he has drafted Bargs (disputably a top-5 talent from a terrible draft), Derozan, and Davis. DD seems like a solid pick, Davis is good – and you can say he fell into his lap, but half of drafting is luck, and him being available doesn’t mean BC couldn’t have picked someone else.
In terms of late round picks, he doesn’t seem to value his own, but he certainly values some players in that pick range. When he sees someone he wants, he usually buys or trades for a pick in the range they are likely to be picked. Alabi, Jawai come to mind. And statistically speaking, 2nd round picks have very little value – for every successful 2nd round pick you can name (Ginobili, Arenas, etc) you can name 10 that didn’t stick past a year and 10 more who never even made a roster.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 20, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Props for using Alabi and Jawai in an attempt to bolster a pro-Colangelo argument. That took balls. LOL
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He never said they were good picks.
He just said that if Colangelo sees somebody that he wants in the range that you said he doesn’t generally value, then he will do what it takes to get a pick to take them. Obviously, the moves didn’t work. But that wasn’t the argument.
Not that my reply is pro-BC.
I agree with you, I am just pointing out that you may have misconstrued his argument.
Well, I don’t have a pair (or 5) like MAS11’s, but I do what I can with what I’ve got ;)
by dhackett1565 on Apr 20, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You conveniently focussed on what fans have been calling for and left out the fact taht most writers/experts/analysts (pretty much everyone with half a brain) has said the same thing.
This was a case where a good potion of the fan base got it dead right on Bargnani because they were sophisticated enough to understand the statistics and listen to the NUMEROUS experts/writers and MOUNTAINE of evidence all saying the same thing. Bargnani is a extremely unproductive player and Toronto would be wise to trade him or not even extend him.
Inaction
BC’s inaction was promising, but I’m personally skeptical as to whether he can stay the course. We know by his nature that he is a very impatient guy. So what happens when we start to show some promise? Does he start swinging for the fences again? If he’s retained, he’ll be going into this season with alot more assets than he had last season, and I think it will be intriguing to see how he handles it.
I’m going to talk about this tomorrow but I’m reserving judgement on “BC’s inaction.” I think you make some great points lessthanzero and I’m REALLY hoping that his lack of home run swinging is indeed a sign of things to come.
But two factors give me pause.
1) The Linas Kleiza deal. Again, a trade that was short-sighted and stop-gap in scope at best. Not that I hated the deal when it first went down, more that I really didn’t see it as a long-term solution.
2) The team’s health. I have to ask myself if we would have seen more home run attempts had this club been healthy and in the 30-some wins range, sadly, putting the team in contention for the 8th seed. (The Pacers nabbed it with a pathetic 37 wins.) Injuries may have been this team’s saving grace long-term, who knows, so I’m going to wait for the real off-season to begin, again, assuming there is one, before trumpeting his lack of HR attempts.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree… injuries were a blessing for the hardcore fan for sure. But BC is all in now… no more excuses… this IS a rebuild. Now do it. The right way.
I’m skeptical too… he’ll want to hit a home run on the next pitch he sees rather than playing the count… lets hope he doesn’t chase one in to the dirt.
by lessthanzero on Apr 19, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Also… for the benefit of the entire NBA lets hope the mid-level exception is abolished… name a GM that didn’t curse his MLE signing 3 months in to the season?
by lessthanzero on Apr 19, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Also...
it seems like the HQ have a vendetta against BC and Bargs… where even Feschuk… the glass is always empty type… came away from the presser with an unemotional take on the situation. Very big picture. I can’t believe I’m saying this but… I agree with him:
http://www.thestar.com/article/976710—feschuk-raptors-gm-makes-compelling-case-to-keep-his-job
A vendetta?
No, but when you firmly believe that a player, coach or GM isn’t helping the team move forward, then isn’t the spotlight going to be on said person? None of us are saying that Colangelo or Bargnani should be ostracized or punished for eternity. We simply don’t think they’re what’s best for the club going forward.
Colangelo HAS made some nice moves this season, but do they erase three years of mistakes? Mistakes that will in all likelihood mean a bottom-feeding team now for the next couple of seasons at least? And considering those issues, is this the man you want to be in charge of a rebuilding plan?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Doen’t the HQ advocate losing badly to win big? Isn’t that what the NBA is all about? That’s how winners are made. BC has bought in to that. He’s a little late to the game… but he’s all in now.
I’m not saying his years of screw-ups should be forgotten… I am just asking, as an outsider, an outsider like all of us fans, maybe he’s right when he says continuity is important? Do any of us really think a new GM would come in and do things that much different than BC with this 22 win team? As long as Bargs is traded… then I’d argue no.
by lessthanzero on Apr 19, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but thats not necessarily the question
would a GM do anything different next season? Maybe not… but what about 2 or 3 years down the road? Its not like BC wasn’t given an opportunity to run this team for 5 years.
Plus continuity is great but with a purpose. Was it a bad idea that Isaih was released from the Knicks? They broke continuity there….. status quo just for the sake of the status quo is not a positive. Maintaining the status quo because it is working can be viewed as a positive.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 19, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Continuity when the correct decisions are being made = good
Continuity when bad decisions are being made = bad
That’s the crux of tomorrow’s piece.
I’m all for continuity – but it’s hard to argue for continuity when the result has been a consistent decrease in many key team metrics, most importantly, wins.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2011 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Good read
When it comes to Colangelo presser’s I feel like he’s just out there to say what he thinks people want to hear. He never tips his hand at almost anything and while at times thats an admirable trait, at this point, its just annoying because you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt. To me, everything he says/does now is an attempt to save his own ass, He was never in a position like this in Phoenix and even when the team was struggled, he still had daddy to fall back on…now this is his problem that he created and hes not sure what to do about it. The home run attempts (JO and Turk) failed miserably and now he’s stuck looking for an answer. Not sure how he doesn’t see that everyone wants a rebuild and that to start that Bargs needs to go.
side note
I also beleive that the biggest issue that will arise RE: trading bargs is that he has a perception of his trade value being higher than what it will actually be. I think that he thinks teams will be dying to get their hands on a guy that can score 20 points at 7 feet, but only grab 4 rebs in 40 minutes and play no defense. He’s sadly mistaken, and unless he can swallow his pride and admit that hes just not that good, we could be stuck with him.
+Infinity
Great, great point. If Bargnani is on the roster opening day next year, it will because BC is still detached from reality when it comes to Bargina’s trade value. Honestly, cap relief in terms of a shorter contract and a draft pick or young/unproven player is probably the top end of the market for Bargina. And its STILL a fantastic deal for the Raptors.
What is sad is that I could see Barney improving his play if he was surrounded by the right type of veterans. I mean it cannot be a surprise that he regressed in so many areas once all of the vets (Bosh and Jack come to mind and Evans injury too) were removed from the equation. If he played with Duncan or Dirk or someone like that I could see him improving enough to at least warrant a starting position. Of course that means he has to move so I hope for his sake he does get traded.
P.S. – I hope all the Bosh haters noted that we finished almost 20 games worse without him and only Cleveland had a bigger drop off. Yes he is not good enough to carry a team but how many PFs in the history of the game could carry a team on their own? Barkley couldn’t win a championship with better talent and he is a top 50 player. Pave your parking lots.
+Bosh's New Contract
Great line.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Love this point McGateway
Was I ever a HUGE Bosh backer?
No.
But did I think fans undervalued his contributions? Yes indeed, and even Andrea spoke of this when he talked about how much more difficult it was offensively this year minus CB4.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Bosh see-sawed from over-rated to under-rated by the fans, but in the end he is the second best player this franchise has ever had. If we are talking about consistent level of performance over the course of his Raptors career then he is probably #1.
Off topic but...
Rick Adelman’s suddenly unaffiliated. Here’s a coach who actually seems to get more from his guys than you’d expect, year after year. Worth pursuing.
I agree
Adelman has always produced good teams that are enjoyable to watch. He would be a great coach for the Raptors
AINT HAPPENING
he clearly resigned the position – don’t be surprised if he ends up coaching NYK or LAL
I would love to see him here. A friend texted me last night to say that he was starting up the “Adelman to Toronto” bandwagon.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
"Hi, my name is Bryan Colangelo, and I'm a Bargaholic..."
It’s all about steps…
We’re here for you…
"the Truth"
Love it – should have ended the post with something like this ha ha.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Adelman
The guy came close to winning 50 games a year with a Rockets team without Yao or T-mac for a run of years. Would love if we could get him I doubt it
http://fanboyanonymous.blogspot.com
Adelman’s resume is a lot longer than that. He coached the Webber-Divac Kings to the seventh game of the Western Conference Finals and numerous seasons of exciting ball in Sacramento. Before that he coached the Duckworth-Robinson-Drexler Trailblazers to the NBA finals in 90 and 92. His teams have pretty much always played an exciting and winning brand of ball that would be most welcome in Toronto.
He would be a great coach for this team. His half-court offense is usually very good. He’d come at quite a price though and I’m sure that BC wouldn’t want a high profile guy here that would carry some weight. It would be tough for BC to tell Rick Adelman what to do.
That is part of the problem. BC needs to admit he cannot coach a team and let the coach, well, coach. Bringing in a coach of Adelman’s stature would go a long way to helping this team move forward. I doubt Adelman or any other coach of stature (Jerry Sloan for example) will come here considering the complete lack of anything resembling winning talent (yes they have pieces but they cannot win with pieces).
BC scares me
He talks about getting a big man in the centre so Andrea can move to the 4. Where does that leave Ed and Amir?
I see him has being a backup centre/forward who brings offence off the bench and plays 25 minutes a game to get 17 points and 5 boards on 14 shots per game. When his shot is falling you play him a bit more and when it’s not you pull him a bit earlier. But he is not our future starting PF. From all we saw this year Ed Davis is our man.
Andrea is what he is and right now he is in the wrong role and he can’t perform what is being asked of him. Change his role or trade him, please.
I think that’s where things get really interesting don’t they?
As noted, it can’t be both, so either Bargs is a 4, and Davis or Amir go, or they keep trying to use Andrea at the 5, and we know how that’s gone.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone see Colangelo/Burke/Beeston
on the fan with bob mccown?
Colangelo said mccown was the “pat riley of the media” for bringing the “big 3” toronto sports teams presidents to the same place at the same time…. and said “I just wanna be clear, I’m a distant 3rd to them, so call me Chris Bosh”
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I did hear that. Made me laugh. It also gives you alot of insight into how BC really feels about Bosh. He has taken some indirect shots at him in the past, but that was a direct shot, no question about it.
Wow, talk about petty!
I think as time goes on we’re finding out more and more how betrayed BC felt by Bosh when all was said and done.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 19, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, what a small, small man to be making comments like that...
I hope we’re not chasing a free agent in the near future that has the same agent as Bosh! Seriously, what’s to be gained by those types of comments?? Be professional at least!
Going back to the topic of being thin-skinned, this might not be the funniest joke in the world, but it was a pretty harmless wise-crack. If Bosh is still listening to Toronto radio and cares what BC says about him I would be very surprised.
It's not so much Bosh's feelings I'm concerned about
It’s the perception that the GM of The Raptors is dogging former players on the Radio almost a YEAR after he left! Give it up!!
I think what some people fail to remember...
…is that Bosh led four or five franchises (including the Raptors) to believe that they had a chance of landing him. One by one these organizations made their pitches in an effort to convince Bosh to join their squad when in reality he had already made up his mind to join Miami. He wasted a lot of people’s time and money all so that his ego could be placated. As far as I’m concerned, all that hard work he put in while with the Raptors was tainted when he and Lebron pulled that stunt last summer. I never liked Lebron, but Bosh’s reputation and integrity took a hit as far as I’m concerned
I don't want to get into this again, but what makes you so absolutely sure that the decision to go to Miami was premeditated?
Speculation has turned into fact aparently…
Come on, seriously?
After everything that has come to light since Bosh signed with Miami, you seriously think it wasn’t premeditated? I have no ACTUAL proof, no one does, but seriously, it’s the worst kept secret in the NBA.
did he not also
not even bothering having any contact with BC once the season ended? I thought I remember BC saying numerous times that (paraphrasing) “Bosh never got back to him”?
Not to mention the way Bosh quite last year (and I know some don’t agree but to me it was blatantly obvious). If I was a GM of a team, and my team was fighting for the playoffs just to have your “best” player give up, then walk away from the team….
Then again I never liked Bosh that much… and I find that comment quite funny because its true.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 19, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
And what a lot of people also forget is how teams use up players then spit them out or trade them against their wills (anyone remember how Eric Williams after Williams took a smaller contract so he could play closer to his son). This is a two way street and all the BS put forward by teams that they are close to signing such and such a player is nothing more than posturing. You can pitch the hurt fans felt but BC should have known this was going to happen cause we all knew it at least one year before it did and some people even sooner. How can a bunch of fans know something that a guy who gets paid to know these things didn’t. My guess is BC is about as hurt by Bosh leaving as I am watching used toilet paper get flushed down the toilet. His comments are nothing more than posturing for fans.
Petty? Seems honest to me. I doubt anyone in the basketball world (besides maybe Bosh’s mom?) would actually disagree with Bosh being a distant 3rd on that team.
I agree about the background though – this only further cements the idea that the organization was led by the nose by Bosh, thinking he might actually return.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 19, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
This Bargnarni bashing has to stop
Could you people give it a rest? Enough Bargnarni bashing already. It’s getting old. The fact of the matter is that Mago is the only solid and consistent scorer that Raptos have, worts and all. If he were not there, there would be a 22 point per game gap on that team. And I doubt BC will get rid of him unless he was absolutely desperate. Right now he would not get equal value for him. So unless the Raps can get an all star type player in return, any other trade possiblities would be worthless at best.
Love him or hate him, Bargnarni is a matchup nightmare. Her can take his oppoent off the dribble, score off the blocks and shoot the three. He has above average ball handling skills for a player his size. His game has improved each and there is no evidence to prove that will not happen next season. Anyways, I’m sure that you hater will be the same folk that will be kissing Mago’s ass once the Raptors start winning.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Apr 19, 2011 6:08 PM EDT reply actions
I assume jeff is kidding because he referred to BARGS as “her” at one point! Thanks for gettin me to laugh today Jeff! You’re quite a joker! haha
by untouchable_21 on Apr 19, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It wan’t a joke. I just didn’t check my spelling that’s all. My argument still stands. Bargs is the Raptors’ best all arounbd player, like it or not.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Apr 20, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
So beyond “he averages 20 ppg”, what criteria are we using to establish Bargs as the Raptors’ best all around player?
I suppose I should point out the fact that the term “all around” implies that a player does more than just score. It would imply that he rebounds, blocks shots, plays defense, passes… you know, all the things Bargnani does NOT do.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
"If he were not there, there would be a 22 point per game gap on that team."
the very fact that there wasn’t in the games he missed, is proof that this is not true.
“His game has improved each [year] and there is no evidence to prove that will not happen next season”
actually his game has not improved each year, only his scoring average. If he maintains the pace from last year to this year to next year, he may well very well average 4 rebounds, 0 blocks, 0 steals, 4 turnovers, and 41% shooting from the field. but will score 25 points a game on 23 shots!!!!! awesome.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Apr 19, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
HA HA HA HA kiss Mago’s ass when they start winning. BEST LINE EVER. Of course its Il Mago and he would actually have to do something like play defense or rebound or sit at the end of the bench for the whole game in order for them to start winning but hey, why quibble over facts when we can throw out zingers like that.
When does BC’s contract actually end? I would love to see him deal Bargnani before they decide what to do with him.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Apr 19, 2011 8:58 PM EDT reply actions
It's funny...
A lot of people are jumping on the fact that Colangelo had the nerve to compare DeRozan’s second season to Kobe Bryant’s second season despite the two-year difference in age (not to mention the difference in efficiency and per minute production).
Again, we have more evidence of the fact that Colangelo relies on nothing beyond scoring average to make decisions about the roster. It’s why the Bargnani Nightmare will probably continue into its 6th season, if Colangelo is extended.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2011 7:13 PM EDT reply actions
Disagree
I think Colangelo’s comments show that he still thinks scoring average is the easiest thing to sell to the public. He may still be right about that, although the teams failure to win while being “led” by a “20-point scorer” might be sinking in with some casual fans.
For you argument to make sense you are assuming that the information Colangelo pitches to fans and the information he uses to make decisions are necessarily the same. I am not convinced that assumption is correct.
I hear what you are saying. But actions speak louder than words. Comparing DeRozan to Bryant shows a pretty poor understanding of stats beyond scoring average. And it’s not like Colangelo has made any real moves to indicate that he’s basing decision making on something other than scoring.
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it shows a pretty good understanding of what Average-Joe fan wants to hear. And does not reflect his understanding of the game at all – he said these things at a PRESS CONFERENCE.
by dhackett1565 on Apr 21, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Finally Got To Watch Parts #3 and #4
Good stuff in there
Two major needs
1. A big that can defend at the rim and he still wants to kick Michael’s posterior for pulling the plug on the Chandler trade.
2. The need for more three point shooters who can make three point shots and an improvement in the current players like DeRozan in terms of making three pointers.
3. He seems to be happy with James Johnson and Kleiza at the three however I do believe that he would draft D. Williams if he were available when the Raptors go to pick. unless the Raptors get the #1 pick.
A couple of other observations.
Firstly he said that the Raptors will take the best talent available and then he said that there are two Bigs; i.e. 7 footers that he is looking at that will be in the draft. He didn’t mention names but obviously they are Kanter and Jonas. This was made even clearer by the fact that he said that he wasn’t sure that the Raptors wanted to draft a project which he thinks they are.
So maybe he would skip over the best talent available because that talent was a project. Talked out of two sides of his mouth on the best talent available thing.
It seems to me that he really wants to move Andrea to the #4 and get a guy who can defend the rim. Clearly he doesn’t think that Ed or Amir are those guys or else he would have mentioned it.
It seems to me that if BC can trade for or sign a Big who he thinks can defend at the RIM that Amir would most likely get traded.
He is not going to trade Davis and if he gets that Big who can defend at the RIM who most likely won’t be a scorer than he would try and keep Bargnani since neither Davis or Johnson have much of a ISO game.
My sense is that Amir is the most likely big that Jay would move if he can either sign a Big in free agency or trade Amir for one.
Key Upcoming Dates
-———————————————
April 30 or 31 for preliminary list of draft entrants
May 7 or 8 for final list
May 17 or 18 for lottery.
Sorry I couldn’t remember the exact date.
Here Is The Long List of Potential Free Agent Centers
I say potential because some of them at this point are RFA.
Best at rim defenders at the top of the list
-————————————————————————————-
1. Tyson Chandler, Dallas Mavericks – $12.6 million – Unrestricted
2. Samuel Dalembert, Sacramento Kings – $13.4 million – Unrestricted
3. DeAndre Jordan, L.A. Clippers – $0.9 million – Unrestricted*
Rest of best at the rim defenders but have a history of serious chronic health problems
-————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
4. Greg Oden, Portland Trail Blazers – $6.8 million – Restricted ($8.8 million Qualifying Offer)
5. Yao Ming, Houston Rockets – $17.7 million – Unrestricted
Excellent all-around Centers but not the best at defending the rim.
-——————————————————————————————————————————-
Nene, Denver Nuggets – $11.4 million – Early Termination Option ($11.6 million)
Marc Gasol, Memphis Grizzlies – $3.6 million – Unrestricted*
Joel Przybilla (a), Charlotte Bobcats – $7.4 million – Unrestricted
(a) Good at the rim defender and good rebounder but not top flight at the rim defender.
Best of the Rest
-——————————————-
Spencer Hawes, Philadelphia 76ers – $3.0 million – Restricted ($4.1 million Qualifying Offer)
Nenad Krstic, Boston Celtics – $5.7 million – Unrestricted
The Rest
-———————————————
Tony Battie, Philadelphia 76ers – $1.4 million – Unrestricted
Kyrylo Fesenko, Utah Jazz – $1.1 million – Unrestricted
Erick Dampier, Miami HEAT – $1.1 million – Unrestricted
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Miami HEAT – $1.4 million – Unrestricted
Jeff Foster, Indiana Pacers – $6.7 million – Unrestricted
Nazr Mohammed, Oklahoma City Thunder – $6.9 million – Unrestricted
Kurt Thomas, Chicago Bulls – $1.4 million – Unrestricted
Francisco Elson, Utah Jazz – $1.1 million – Unrestricted
Hilton Armstrong, Atlanta Hawks – $0.9 million – Unrestricted
Aaron Gray, New Orleans Hornets – $0.9 million – Player Option ($0.9 million)
Jamaal Magloire, Miami HEAT – $1.4 million – Unrestricted
Dan Gadzuric, New Jersey Nets – $7.2 million – Unrestricted
Ryan Hollins, Cleveland Cavaliers – $2.3 million – Player Option ($2.5 million)
Kwame Brown, Charlotte Bobcats – $1.3 million – Unrestricted
Theo Ratliff, L.A. Lakers – $1.4 million – Unrestricted
Etan Thomas, Atlanta Hawks – $1.2 million – Unrestricted
Jason Collins, Atlanta Hawks – $1.2 million – Unrestricted
Eddy Curry – $11.3 million – Unrestricted
Hamed Haddadi, Memphis Grizzlies – $1.8 million – Unrestricted*
Alexis Ajinca, Toronto Raptors – $1.5 million – Unrestricted
Players marked with an asterisk are not on rookie scale contracts (for former first-round picks) but are eligible for restricted free agency as a player with three years or less of NBA experience (based upon the current CBA)
Wow, there are A LOT of names on that list I would want in my rotation ahead of Bargs...
"the Truth"
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