March Madness - Raptors HQ Prospect Watch Edition
It's time for March Madness and the HQ takes a look at some players in this year's tourney that Raptors' fans should be keeping an eye on.
Merry Christmas to all!
Well...Merry March Madness at the very least.
On Thursday the field will be set for the NCAA's annual college basketball tournament, "March Madness" as it is often referred to, and yes, Christmas Day for myself and millions of other hoops fans around the world.
To put it simply, it's my favourite time of the year.
This year though, for the first time I'd argue in nearly a decade, I'll be watching "the Dance" with an extremely keen eye, one that will be trained on various players hoping to make the leap to the NBA lottery next year. Yes, this has been my practice in the past as well to a certain extent, however thanks to the Toronto Raptors basement-dwelling season, the team should have a top five pick for the first time since 2006, Bryan Colangelo's first year on the job in TO, and the year of the infamous Andrea Bargnani draft.
Make no mistake about it, the Raps desperately need an infusion of talent, and they need to hit a home run in this draft regardless of where they actually pick after the lottery balls stop bouncing.
This extends beyond a potential top pick in the draft too as a second-round steal ala Gilbert Arenas or Carlos Boozer would go a long ways towards getting this club back on track.
Last week we took a look at five players who many have near or at the top of their respective "draft boards," but this morning I thought we'd cast a wider net, and look at some additional prospects playing in this year's tournament that Raptors' fans should get to know.
1. Harrison Barnes - SF - North Carolina.
I'm starting to warm up on Mr. Barnes. Early in the season he looked a bit like a DeMar DeRozan clone at USC, an athletic player who didn't attack the hoop often enough, who settled for jumpers, and yet who wasn't hitting them at a very good clip. However he's been on fire lately, putting together some very impressive all around games, culminating in a 41 point, 8 rebound effort against Clemson on the weekend. If Barnes can continue to lead Carolina and show that he can be a dynamic offensive force both from the perimeter and attacking the lane, he'll be someone Toronto should seriously consider come draft day.
2. Terrence Jones - SF - Kentucky.
Another small forward to keep an eye on in this tournament, Jones is a bit of a do-it-all option at the 3, and a player who's amazing length and ball handling skills enables him to play basically any position on the floor in college. At one point he looked to be an option as a top 3 pick but he's struggled with his shot of late, and needs a good tourney run to show that he's not simply another Marvin Williams type; a jack-of-all trades, master of none.
3. Kemba Walker - G - UCONN.
There aren't many more exciting players to watch in all of college ball. If you watched the Big East tournament this past weekend you saw why Walker is such a hot name in draft talk as the kid simply competes game in and game out. He's a bit of a combo guard for certain, but it's hard not to think that he'll have an impact at the NBA level thanks to his speed and ability to score the ball and draw fouls. I'm not sure he's a huge improvement over Jerryd Bayless however, a similar player in college some may recall, so Raptors' fans probably need to see him run his team efficiently over the course of the tourney in addition to simply putting up points on the scoreboard.
4. Kawhi Leonard - SF - San Diego State.
Every year players like Leonard go too low in the NBA draft because they don't have a "position" on the court, or look too raw as prospects. Guys like Gerald Wallace are examples of this and the athletic and tough Leonard has drawn comparisons to the former Bobcat in addition to players like Shawn Marion. Is he a top 5 pick? On "upside" perhaps not, but it's hard to watch Leonard and think that he wouldn't be a great fit skill-set-wise at the 3 for this Raptors' team, and a great tournament performance may put him in top 5 consideration.
5. Brandon Knight - G - Kentucky.
I don't think nearly enough people are talking about Knight but I expect that to change with the upcoming tourney. He's not John Wall or Derrick Rose, but if you take his game for what it is, Knight is one of the best scoring 1's in the country, a hard worker and great leader. You can see the Jason Terry comparisons quite easily when watching him play, and I think even his PG game is underrated. If Knight can lead Kentucky deep and score at an efficient rate, I bet we see his stock soar.
6. Nolan Smith - G - Duke.
Going from one sleeper to another we turn to Mr. Smith. He's not a "sleeper" in the sense that he's won a ton of accolades already this season, and is up for the Naismith Award, however he's well outside of the lottery on most draft boards. This baffles me as at worst, I think he's a better version of Louis Williams, a 1 with a scorer's mentality but unlike Lou, an excellent defender and player who can create his own shot and get to the rim. The possibility of him sliding late in the draft due to lack of "upside" has me dreading Toronto giving up their late first-round pick as experienced winners like Nolan are what this Raptors' team needs a major infusion of.
7. John Henson - F/C - North Carolina.
Henson is going to get a long hard look at the top of the lottery I'm guessing. He's got great length and athleticism for a big man and has put together a very impressive sophomore season. Big men that block shots and rebound the ball (he had 18 boards against Duke in the ACC final) the way he does don't grow on trees and he'll certainly be in high demand even though he's got a ways to go in terms of getting stronger and rounding out his offensive game. The Raptors already have similar big men in Ed Davis and Amir Johnson, but could package one to fill another need if they feel that Henson is the top option on the board when it's time for them to pick.
8. Kenneth Faried - PF - Morehead State.
Now we get into the second rounders. Faried normally would be an off-the-radar type thanks to playing for Morehead State, but this year he made headlines by breaking Tim Duncan's NCAA rebounding record. He's an undersized four but this is one of those players who has the heart of a lion, competes on every possession, and has the length and athleticism to be a factor at the next level. If Faried dominates against Louisville in his club's first-round match he'll probably put himself well out of second-round consideration. However if he should slip for some reason ala DeJuan Blair, the Raps would be crazy to pass one someone who provides so many of the elements their current club needs.
9. JaJuan Johnson - F - Purdue.
Johnson has joined the ranks of Chris Douglas-Roberts, Wes Matthews and Bill Walker as players who I've viewed as second-round steals. He's a long and athletic big man who while manning the 4 in college, looks to be able to man the 3 spot quite well in the L once he ads some bulk to his frame. He's been dominant this season for a very good Boilermaker squad and I'd be thrilled to see the Raps scoop him up at some point in the upcoming draft. However should he put on a show in the tourney and should Purdue go deep, I doubt Johnson will fall out of the first round.
10. Chris Singleton - F - Florida State.
One final bonus second-rounder. Singleton is one of my favourite prospects in this draft. He was on pace for a breakout season and potentially being a lottery pick before he went down with a broken foot mid-way through the season. He's the best wing defender in the country, gets after it on the glass, and uses his excellent length and size to create mismatches on the perimeter and in the post. He's not a top lottery option but like Leonard, would be a great fit at the 3 for Toronto. The big question mark is if he'll play in the Dance and while he's said to ESPN's Andy Katz that he will indeed participate, Raptors' fans may be hoping that that's not the case, and his injury makes him somehow slide into the second round.
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I would have included ...
E’Twuan Moore at Purdue, Richmond’s duo of Anderson and Harper, Florida’s Chandler Parsons and USC’s Alex Stephenson if the make it past the play in game of course. These guys, outside of Moore, should be available in the second round I think.
Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com
Zicarelli
Wrote the Raps should take Harrison Barnes (a SF) with #1 (should they get the #1 pick) so they can finally trade Andrea Bargnani(!?!) …. This logic is as good as saying you should do it because it is Friday or because Grandma’s pies are not as good as they used to be. The logic is actually so obscure that I wonder if he meant saying the Raptors should retain Andrea if they got Barnes with the #3 pick instead…
The alternative hypothesis (to the obvious one) is Zicarelli is a basketball genius and he is going to give us an explanation that is going to take us all by surprise and produce ohhhhs and whoaaas. To be honest if I want to read some Bargnani bashing I rather come here and read DS (the reason) and MAS (the faith) :))
Just so you know, renato: Zicarelli also writes about professional wrestling for the Toronto Sun. He’s probably less of a basketball authority than Doug Smith.
Obviously I’m the furthest thing in the world from a Bargnani fan… but at least I would make the point that you could trade Bargnani because Ed Davis is ready to start and/or the Raptors have acquired a defensive-minded centre in the mold of Tyson Chandler or Kendrick Perkins.
Harrison Barnes would fill a huge need at SF. However, he has little to no impact on what happens at the 4/5 positions.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
sorry, too many languages to speak in too little time
I meant saying “Harrison Barnes would fill a huge need at SF. However, he has little to no impact on what happens at the 4/5 positions.” is exactly the point I was trying to make
I think the point Zicarelli was making was that Bargnani is a scorer, as is Barnes, and by adding another scorer (Barnes and DeRozan), any reason to keep Bargs would be gone, and BC could trade him for defensive or future assets. That’s the only way that statement makes any kind of sense to me.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Chalk it up to not being able to articulate his point very well.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
As wrong as he is
He might be getting at the fact that BC’s credibility is tied to the success of Bargs as a number 1 pick. If he gets another #1 pick, that’s his new jewel that he’ll protect. I don’t agree obviously, but yea…
I thought so
That is why I asked it that would work just with Barnes picked by the Raps at #1,, rather than #3 (for the sake of the argument). And that is why I said hist article had little to do with Basketball and more to do with professional wrestling colour commentary with an orange (basket ball) tone.
I would say it depends what tha trade is
Would you trade the offensively challenged Davis or the defensive impaired Bargnani. I guess it depends what the other moves would be. Davis would not warrant you a big defensive C. On the other side, let’s say you sign one, you do not need another offensively challenged PF.
Davis is not offensively challenged
Davis is quite efficient on offense and is a perfectly good scorer for a PF. He can hit a 12 foot jumper, he is a good offensive rebounder and he is shooting 60% on the season. Other than his horrible 54% free throw shooting, his offensive game is fine.
Since you are so interested in my opinoin Renato...
You don’t even have to factor in the draft pick to make a more than compelling case to trade Andrea Bargnani. For me, it starts and ends with: He’s a terrible starting centre/forward and overpayed to play off the bench, therefore keeping him is detremental to the team’s future. There are also MANY other reasons to trade him. Who they pick could/would potentially add to the many reasons to trade him.
Interested?
All I wanted to say is that you can express a reasoning better that Frank Zicarelli.
That’s the best back-handed compliment I’ve read all day! LOL
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta say...
I am also warming to Mr. Barnes. Adding him to the fold would give the Raps some a stable of young and athletic guys including DeRozan and Ed Davis. It’s either Barnes or Irving – they look to be the two homerun hitters in this draft.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Mar 15, 2011 10:53 AM EDT reply actions
Agreed...
IMO Terance Jones would be a nice consulation prize…
and..
can we all agree to stay away from Perry Jones? when it’s all said and done, he might be the best player out of this draft but he seems like a certified work in progress.
P. Jones
I don’t know about that. If in the indivifual sessions Perry shows he can handle the rock he is indeed a bright prospect.
The Baylor team he played for had many problems and issues this year and he was only a freshman but put up good numbers for a first year player. His heght and athleticism are impressive. What he would need to show is that he has a 3 skillset.
by stretch bigman on Mar 15, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm skeptical of PJIII
I am very wary of P. Jones, also. Physically, he seems awesome and could be a great SF. On the mental side, I have never heard anything particularly encouraging. He didn’t deliver in big games and didn’t impress anyone with his commitment and effort. We already enough talented players with suspect effort, thank you very much.
PJ
is an Andrea Bargnani dressed as a three. Looks good but has no competitive drive.
by raptor rabid on Mar 15, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's a couple of names that come to mind when I think of PJIII
Johnathan Bender and Austin Day. Both were 6"11 and skinny as hell. Yikes!
I think of PJIII’s best case scenario being something like Lamar Odom or a maybe Shareef Abdur Rahim. Tall 3’s or underweight 4s that are great scorers, but have struggled to really “be the man”. Odom has great basketball sense and is in a good situation, so he has really maximized his talent. SAR on the other hand, never got into a good situation for his skills. Either way, they are not the kind of player who can lead a team. That is my worry with PJIII. Bargnani’s talent, but seeming lack of drive might be another interesting comparison.
Chris Singleton
Wouldn’t it be great if the Raptors had an extra first-round pick (something in the 25-30 range) in order to grab Singleton before he slid into the second round? That would be really cool.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 11:17 AM EDT reply actions
maybe you want a second round pick instead
not to have to offer him a guaranteed contract….
Especially with so many 2nd-round possibilities listed above.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, renato and dhackett1565, those are both great points. I thought Colangelo’s best move with the Miami first rounder would be to use it on a talented player who slides (i.e. DeJuan Blair) or exchange it for a couple of second rounders.
Even with the first-round guarantee, that’s not a lot of money or years to invest in a player.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Nope – the TPE can only absorb salary – you can’t actually ‘send’ it to another team, ever.
To obtain a pick, the Raps can send players, cash (3 million max), and picks. That’s all the possibilities they have.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but you could theoritically “buy picks” by taking back an unwanted contract aswell.
So give TPE (not actually give but use) to get X picks + unwanted player (and specifically his salary)
correct?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 15, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course. This is the way most teams get draft picks in a trade – absorbing a bad salary by either a) trading expiring contracts, b) having cap space, or c) having a TPE, and asking for a pick or two for the service.
In the example listed above, the Raps would have to send back something, say cash, or a prospect or pick or expiring. Also, since the TPE is down to about 9 million, they would only be able to absorb an unwanted player of that value or lower, since the TPE cannot be combined with expirings.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
In my "Euraptor centric" evil plan
I would have the Raps getting Barns with the pick , trading for Rubio and getting a “Chandler like” player with the trade exception. All the rest is “interesting” but not as relevant…..
If they see a player they like slide, I’m sure they will try to buy a pick – and with this draft, and the uncertainty of the cap status, several teams in the late first round (ie generally high salary teams) will likely be ready to sell off picks to avoid any more cap complications with guaranteed salaries.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven't seen Singleton play...
But are you arguing that he’s a sure bet to be better than James Johnson?
I would draft C.Singleton solely for of his defensive skills...
You could platoon him with James Johnson at the SF spot while this team is developing its young talent….
we can sort out ’who’s who’ when we re-evaulate the young players this time next year….
And Franchise: for the sake of all that is holy - Please don’t mention drafting JaJuan Johnson — if simply for the reason that we have two other players at the Johnson position…
Totally aligned with the “draft the bes player available, sort everything else out later” stratagey. My question for DStance was more aimed at the way he positioned his stance, in that by trading the late first rounder, we’ve given up our oportunity to draft Singleton (or anyone else with that pick for that matter). I wanted to get a sense if Singleton, or any other player determined to be in the late first round, would be a better option than Johnson. I honestly don’t know the answer to this…
Honestly, I would defer any analysis of Singleton to Franchise – since he’s so high on him. However, taking Franchise’s opinion of James Johnson and Singleton into account, I’m going to guess Singleton would be the move.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s nothing like an elite defender to bolster a defense ranked dead-last in the NBA!
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Barnes
I am interested in seeing two things out of him in the tournament:
1) Can he play defense?
2) Can he come through in a big game?
He seemed overwhelmed in the game against Duke(16 points on 15 shots and 2 rbs), but he was great the game before that(41 + 8). Part of that must be youthful inconsistency and maybe fatigue, but he’s got to show that he can handle the spotlight.
from a physical standpoint
by looking how he moves he “could” be another Marion. Not sure he is, all the highlights show are his buckets
Brandon Knight
I don’t like him too much. He’s a great scorer, but you just don’t see that being a huge asset at the PG spot in the NBA. Combo Guards at the 1 don’t contribute to team success, I’d argue. We’ve seen a couple of examples in the past (Allen Iverson, Baron Davis), but I don’t know if Brandon Knight is as good/will be as good as either at their respective primes.
He’s not a prototypical PG, but he’s not the second coming of Stephon Marbury either. He does get his share of assists. I see him as more of the Devin Harris type, with a little more upside.
I wouldn’t want him with a top 5 pick, but if we traded for a pick in the 10-15 range, he’s the guy I’d want. He’d be an upgrade over Bayless at the very least, in my opinion.
Keep in mind that Calipari teams run a pro-style offense, so the transition to the pro’s should be easier for him.
He’s been pretty solid all season, so I’m surprised the Mock’s have kept him so low (mid-first rd.)
Lawson or Felton
If the Raps were smart, they would go after Felton or Lawson from Denver. 2 starting, young, PGs. We need one!!!!
Thoughts?
No thanks on Felton. Maybe on Lawson, but I doubt they will part with him for a fair price.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d imagine Lawson is as close as it gets to untouchable on that Denver squad.
Felton? He’d be a massive upgrade defensively and he does a decent job running an offense. I’m underwhelmed by Felton’s game, but is he not the idea PG you’d want running a ballclub with a defensive sieve like Bargnani in the middle? Just a thought.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I really dislike Felton
while his defense is good… his offensive efficiency is just wasteful. He is basically a pg who you don’t want handling (or shooting) the ball.
So probably extrememly useful with a ‘point forward’ type… which we don’t have.
As for his D, while I think it is good, would rather have good defenders at other positions other than pg first.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 15, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Lawson
I do really like, and I think that guy is gonna be a real baller in this league (maybe not superstar status, but damn good)
But I do agree he is likely untouchable. As good, reliable and steady as a player Chauncey is, I was really suprised they didn’t try to move him earlier to get Lawson going.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 15, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Felton reminds me of a quicker version of Jarrett Jack. I dislike his offense but like his defense and he appears to be a leader on the floor. I think he’s a good enough PG if you have elite players at other positions. But if you’re asking him to carry you, you have a bad team.
Trade exception qrelated question
With the TPE, can you offer a contract to a free agent or can you just absorb another team contract?
You can’t sign anyone with it Renato, but what you could do is work out a sign and trade with his current team. That would transfer the TPE over to them.
As a note – the Raps only have 9 million TPE, and it only lasts until roughly one week into free agency. So if this is the road they take, they will have to be really quick negotiating with the other team and the player.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
which, together witht he fact BC's contract does not run till Draft night
sets things up for failure.
one week? I believe Chris contract wasn’t signed till late July?
It was signed mid-July, roughly 5 days (I believe) after July 8th, the first day to sign contracts. So the Raptors will have, at best, 12 or 13 days to decide on their target, outbid other teams with their TPE cap, and convince the other team to do a S+T.
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Side note...
I will forever refer to D-Stance as “the Reason” and Mas11 as “the Faith” from now on…
Thanks Renato…
lol, that’s not a slight at either of you two guys, I think they’re wicked handles, that’s all…
KDFREATPED
I think a better option is to refer to us both as "based in reality"
And Renato as “fanboy”. No disrespect intended ; )
Furthermore
You can simply refer to me as “The Truth” LOL
I keed, I keed…
Ah but, you know "the Truth", and yet are still a fan... so you must have "the Faith"...
I can take up “the Truth” as I am first to play devil’s advocate to thoroughly dissect an issue…
KDFREATPED
If you’re playing Devil’s advocate, wouldn’t you be “The False?”
by dhackett1565 on Mar 15, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
np, furthermore
First time in a long time being referred as the boy fun or whatever
yet my first nick for you was “TheTaliban” which, you see, still sticks :)
Hey
I thought I was the one who says no disrespect intended, and then disrespects.
And fanboy is for the Iphone gang.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ9YqlmM8zw&playnext=1&list=PL97330B51774D576D
,
by RapthoseLeafs on Mar 15, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
imitators they would be. Comics world has had the real deal for quite some time – it was part of growing up.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Mar 15, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
"Fanboy" has become a ubiquitous expression used to describe anyone with an irrational devotion to someone/something.
As in, “Bargnani Fanboy”. Not sure the “comic book comunity” has some sort of territorial claim over the phrase.
"Fanboy" has become a ubiquitous expression used to describe anyone with an irrational devotion to someone/something...
…whose origins can be traced back to the comicbook community. I’ve been hearing the word/term fanboy for the last 20/25 years, as a reference to comic book fans. Y’all just stole it from us.
The Reason
Love it! Haha
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
or Dumb and Dumbererer
(in case you were wondering what the D stood for)… lol
please accept my apologies..
dear deer…
never dared
I may have disagreed with them (I still do more often than not) but never dared to call them dumb
I don’t know why you call the " infamous Andrea Bargnarni draft." Look how he is doing now. He’s leading the team in scoring and has become the primary option on the offense. His game has improved every year. He filled up the vacuum when CB jumped ship rather well.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Mar 15, 2011 4:23 PM EDT reply actions
I can't figure out if...
this is sarcasm, or utter nonsense.
It's a Jeffrey Thompson... look through past posts and you have your explanation... TROLL
"the Truth"
I THINK it's sarcasm...
…or at least I’m hoping…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Mar 15, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
its not sarcasm unfortunately
same old story… “teams leading scorer, primary option on offense, has improved every year”. Ofcourse this is without looking at minutes, efficiency and usage… which tells us he is not the teams most efficient scorer yet still the primary option. His scoring has only ‘improved’ by an increase in usage, while nearly everything else he ‘does’ (and I use that loosely as he barely does anything else) has actually gotten worse.
Somehow this feels like dejavu…
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 15, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Irving or Barnes
Would be best case scenerio for raps.
Seriously, if we could use creative bargaining to come away with Barnes AND Kemba Walker? Noice!!
"the Truth"
Quality > Quantity
Thumbs down to that strategy. I’d take quality over quantity every time. Irving is better than either of those guys and if the Raps passed up the chance to take him they would be sorry.
Impact on the team trumps individual talent...
The difference between Jose to Irving is not going to have nearly the effect on this team as getting a legitimate star SF and a future replacement for Jose…
In the next few years Walker’s game came supplant Jose’s without having to suffer the lack of talent other positions in the mean time…
I agree talent trumps quantity… but I look at the talent of the team as a whole (which is how the game is played) whereas you are only looking at one position…
"the Truth"
What I am looking at is star quality vs. superstar quality. For me Irving, is on a level above Barnes, Sullinger, Walker. Maybe I am wrong about that, but I don’t think so. Barnes would be a fine consolation prize if the Raptors don’t get the top pick(which is pretty likely).
I absolutely think that Irving replacing Jose would have more impact than Barnes replacing Johnson or some other SF that we might pick up. Jose is a decent starter(efficiency wise), but in a year or two Irving may be be approaching guys like Rose/Paul/DWilliams (ie an all-around PG who can attack, defend, shoot, distribute) while Jose will be nearing the end of the line.
Additionally, I think you have to look a Barnes in terms what will he give you that you don’t already get from DeRozan. Then if you take a different SF like TJones you are looking at a guy who is like a James Johnson-plus. Not bad options, but definitely not better than Irving.
I am not looking at the draft in terms of assembling the best team for next season. I am looking at it in terms of assembling the best team for the long term. I wouldn’t mind adding Barnes, but I would definitely prefer Irving.
My point is Jose is currently (and should be for a few more years) a top ten PG...
Even among the guys you list, you are talking about two different levels…
Rose, Williams are a level above Paul and Calderon…
Rondo is right in between, closer to the top tier than the next…
But Calderon and Paul are near neck and neck for ranking…
I don’t think Irving is going to immediately (or even in the next three years) get into a discussion of Rose / Williams / Rondo…
On par with Paul and Westbrook and Jose? Sure… But I think there are more available PG’s now and in the next few years that can be had to fill that position…
So while Jose is still at that level (for the next 2-3 years) there is no point in wasting a top 5 pick now for the mere even trade off in talent… Use it to actually upgrade the team at other positions…
There will be equivalent talent available to replace Jose when the time comes… why fill a hole that isn’t a hole? Just because you have a shiny shovel? No thanks… I’d rather address an actual problem on the roster…
"the Truth"
Furthermore, if we COULD get Barnes and Walker (which is the "ideal" scenario you were originally disputing)
Then in 2-3 years when Jose is needing to be replaced, Walker should easily be in the same conversation as Paul, Westbrook, Calderon, Curry…
All the while having a Barnes / Jones already been taking over at SF…
"the Truth"
DudeI, love Jose, but he is nowhere near the talents Chris Paul or Russell Westbrook are.
I’ve got to agree with DW19, pick the best available player, regardless of position. You draft for talent and trade for need.
+1
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Top 10 pg's...
1 D. Rose
2 D. Williams
3 R. Rondo
4 S. Nash
5 C. Paul
6 T. Parker
7 C. Billups
8 R. Westbrook
9 J. Calderon
10 S. Curry
"the Truth"
The truth
is the perfect complement to the reason and the faith….
there you have it…….
Those rankings are a little wonky. I think Billups has fallen off a bit more than that number seven ranking. Plus, would you really take Billups over Westbrook right now?!
And Steph Curry ranked behind Calderon?
Geoff Rahal
Author, RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Mar 15, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
do not worry
the season is, by all means over, which means we are… 7 months away to any meaningful Raps basketball, plenty of time to discuss and revise that scale……depressing…..
I would take Jose running my team (a well put together team) in a heartbeat over Curry...
And for as smart and clutch as Billups is he definitely deserves his 7 spot…
Firmly stand behind that list…
Maybe Billups isn’t the athlete or have the “talent” that Westbrook does, but IQ is a talent too and I would rather have Billups run my team over Westbrook… for now…
"the Truth"
well order is subjective
but a solid top 10…
… personally
Paul
Deron
Rondo
Nash
Rose
Westbrook
Parker
Billups
Jose
Curry (but if he was somewhere other than GSW and wasn’t stuck beside Ellis he is likely up after westbrook)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 16, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Crazy order
How can D. Rose be a leading contender for MVP and yet come in 5th at his position?
Paul is not having a great season. Nash can’t play D. Rondo can’t shoot and plays with three “hall of famers”
Deron is the only real competition for Rose and he’s not having as good a year but you could argue the circumstances are to blame. The other guys aren’t has good, though they are all great players. BTW, I don’t like Chicago or Rose. I just watch the games, study the stats and make my subjective opinion based on the facts available. D. Rose is #1 right now.
by defensive rap on Mar 16, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think
Rose deserves MVP. But thats just me. Again its the story of points, and team record, and whats ‘in fashion’.
“Paul is not having a great season” – maybe by his standards. You look at every statistc besides points, and he is ahead of Derek Rose
“Nash can’t play D” – maybe. But he is one of the rare players that trully make his teammates better.
“Rondo can’t shoot and plays with three "hall of famers" – not sure why who he plays with is important. If it is, does Derek Rose not need to be dropped down a notch? (Noah, Deng, Boozer vs Nash’s or Paul’s teammates). What about when you play with 3 hall of famers and you are still the best player on the team? Regardless, he is one of the few players in this league that has a huge weakness (shooting) but easily trumps it by doing everything else so amazingly well. League leader in assists and steals, great %, one of the best penetraters in the league, court vision off the charts.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 16, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
“I just watch the games, study the stats and make my subjective opinion based on the facts available”
Not trying to be harsh here, but this begs the question… what becomes more important ones view of the game (what one sees, what one likes, and most importantly what one remembers), or “the facts”?
Derek Rose:
Assists – 10th in the leauge
Turnovers per game – tied 7th highest
total turnovers – 4th most
A:T Ratio – 42nd
Steals per game – 50th (PGs – 21st)
Total steals – 54th (PGs – 21st)
FG% – 44% (league average 45.8%) (22nd PGs)
3pt% – 34% (league average 36%) (30th PGs)
NBA Efficiency 16th (4th in PGs)
PER – 12th (3rd PGs)
WS – 65th (PGs – 8th)
TS% – 122 (PGs – 22nd)
PG rebounding – 6th
Scoring – 9th
PG Scoring – 1st
You tell me…. which of those numbers make him stand out as a top contender for MVP, or even THE top PG in the league? The guy is a great player and a deserving all-star. He is exciting to watch and most definetely has ‘take over a game’ ability. He is probably a hall of famer in the making. But he is not THE top PG in the league (but is one of them) and he should not be the MVP (but will likely get it because he is ‘in fashion’ right now). He can be in the discussion of all those no doubt, but its not hard to put others ahead of him as both MVP and best PG in the league.
Moreover, what we see and what the numbers show us often differ. S
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Mar 16, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Rose MVP
I didn’t say he should be MVP. He’s not in my top 5, but he is the most likely candidate at his position. Also, I did say that Nash, Rondo, DWill and Paul were all great players. Not good, but great, so I don’t see why you think I am disagreeing with you. I am not.
Part of what Rose does for his team cannot be measured in stats alone and because he draws so much attention on offence it leaves a lot of open space for his teammates to operate.
Like I said, I don’t like Chicago or Rose but I must say he is having the best year of any PGs in the league and I think that would be supported by most NBA fans and coaches.
In the past I have always felt DWill and Paul were the best two in the game. Now I think it is Rose. They are all great but Rose is having the best year.
Those are interesting stats though and they show why he shouldn’t win MVP for the league. But if you had the MVP vote today I would bet you anything Rose would be 1# among PGs.
by defensive rap on Mar 16, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Irving alone VS Barnes & Walker for example
That’s an interesting debate right there and I don’t think one way is better than the other bec either way the team wins but if I had to choose I’d go with Irving simply bec an elite pg is harder to find than a good SF. I really like Barnes and Walker is ok in my books but elite PGs don’t grow on trees while the next draft for eg. has 3 or 4 pretty good SFs but short on quality Pgs. Kember Walker is exciting to watch but I don’t think he’s gonna b e anything special in the NBA. Irving would be awsome for this team.
Jose and Westbrook
Hard to believe if you had the choice to trade Jose for Westbrook that you wouldn’t do it. Westbrook is far more athletic. Jose gets to dominate the ball in Toronto and he does a very good job running the offence but…he gets eaten up in a lot of matchups with more athletic PGs. Andrea is not the only liability on D in Raptor land.
On a side note, Jose has done a better job this year of holding his own on the defensive side of the ball and he should be admired for his effort.
If you want to compare Jose, compare him to players like Andre Miller and not Chris Paul please. Especially since your tagline says “the truth”. Raymond Felton and DJ Augustine and Mike Conley and Devin Harris are more accurate comparisons for Jose.
this years Chris Paul missed his layup in the Skills Challenge remember...
He’s having an off yea maybe. Maybe he’s on the decline.
But this year’s Chris Paul is not the Elite PG who has been in past discussions as the best PG in the league… Not by a long shot…
So yes, this season Jose is overachieving and Paul is underachieving and they end up relatively comparable…
Will both trends carry into next season and beyond? Dunno… but for now, at THIS point in the discussion, relatively equal…
Just because a guy is more athletic doesn’t make him a better choice to be the floor general…
Jose is a level above Felton, Harris and the others because of his IQ, they don’t have it yet, and as such I wouldn’t trust them to lead my team…
"the Truth"
My point is they are not close
What GM would trade Paul for Jose? Or Westbrook for Jose?
Nobody would. And yes, I think Jose could be at the top of the second tier PGs, arguably. But he’s not one of the leagues elite PGs. I like Jose for the record and think he may deserve team MVP this season. He’s always been professional and showed a lot of passion and hard work.
Felton, Harris, Conley and DJ and Jose, they are all close. Which one would most GMs cherish the most for winning now? I don’t know. There would be some argument and one could be made for Jose. But if you asked who would take Jose over Paul or Westbrook, even for winning now, it would sound something like this………………
cricket, cricket
No argument.






























