Tip-In: Shooting Themselves in the Foot, Milwaukee beats Toronto 92 -74
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Feb 9, 2011 8:01 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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PrintThe Bucks took it to the Raptors in the second half and beat them by 18 points... At least that's what the score would have you believe. Instead, the Raptors fought against an opponent that they shouldn't need to overcome: Themselves.
Plug: Enter the MGD Best Seats in the House Contest! We're giving away seats to the L.A. Clippers game! Enter now!
Now that that's out of the way...
I really didn't want to talk about Andrea Bargnani for the rest of this month. I really, really didn't want to talk about him this month.
But, I just don't see how I can possibly recap this game without mentioning him.
Our story from last night begins with DeMar DeRozan. DeRozan was about as electrifying as it gets. The Sophomore was completely on fire and was just a bundle of energy. He hit shots that were wide open, he hit shots that were contested. He got after rebounds, he tried to defend his man as best he could. In the first half, it was the DeRozan show and not much else. Amir Johnson, Jose Calderon, Sonny Weems, Leandro Barbosa, and "he-who-gobbles-up-possessions" just couldn't figure it out. This led to an awful sub 35% shooting percentage at the half.
Fortunately, the Bucks did the Raptors a few favours.
Instead of pounding the Raptors' interior defense, the Bucks seemed content to attempt mid range shots that made for easy rebounds for the Raptors. Players like Andrew Bogut were forgotten, while Brandon Jennings and the other athletic players laid back for jumpers instead of driving the ball. Toss in a slew of turnovers and the Bucks only managed 40 points at the half.
Then the Raptors came up with a great strategy.
Too bad it was to stop their own most effective and efficient player in the first half.
The Raptors proceeded to play some of the worst thought-out basketball that I've seen in quite some time. Completely ignoring the efficiency of DeMar DeRozan, the Raptors instead got their "offensive-black-hole" some additional shots; enough so that Jack Armstrong and Matt Devlin were exuding with praise that he had found his shot again.
When you score 23 points on 9-21 shooting and you play the center position, it's not what I would call efficient. Yes, he found his shot in the second half by attacking the Bucks interior more, but where was that for the entire game? Was it worth it if he got going at the expense of robbing our most effective scorer for the game? He was also "gifted" three rebounds, including one where a Bucks player lost possession of the ball and practically pushed into his hands.
I won't even begin to talk about defense.
This is not play which should be indicative of praise.
Now, I understand that both Amir Johnson and our little "Italian Marvel" played with five fouls, so Jay Triano was hampered by the players available for him to substitute, and the Raptors had difficulties finding anyone to score in the second half.
But once again, Andrew Bogut completely killed the Raptors interior, and yes, the Raptors have proven that they can get some good fast break points if they play a little defense.
So why not play Solomon Alabi a bit more? Why don't you toss Joey Dorsey in with Julian Wright to see if the Raptors can play some lock-down D since Milwaukee heated up in the second half? If the tempo and pace of the game is all wrong, why don't you substitute some of your players for those energy ones?
You know, those guys that have proven themselves in the past to do what is needed on the defensive end?
It makes no sense to me why the Raptors should continue to trot out the same game plan when it's worked so spectacularly so far. Last I checked, the Raptors are now behind the Nets in the standings and are only ahead of Cleveland in the loss column. Substitution choices have now continued to be about setting a tone offensively, instead of establishing a defensive core.
At the end of it, I don't know know what happened to "the fighter" mentality that was so prevalent at training camp. I don't understand what the game plan is for the rest of the year. I'm not sure how the Raptors intend to develop their youth without increasing their playing time.
Someone better start asking Jay Triano these tough questions, otherwise we'll be forced to muscle our way into another press conference.
And yes, 3-point shooting continued to be an issue as the Raptors went scoreless from beyond the arc, but it's something that I mentioned at the very beginning of the year as a huge problem for the Raptors this year. It's not something that is simply going to solve itself overnight and it's not something that's going to change.
What the Raptors can change right now is how they chose to substitute their players, who gets to play when, and the shot selection choices they make.
Today, it's back to the ACC and the Raptors now have to come home and face the Spurs at the ACC. At an incredible 43-8, the Spurs are the best team in the NBA. Period. It's going to take a herculean effort to beat the Spurs who are also coming off a back-to-back win against the Pistons. With Matt Bonner's return, the Spurs are the toast of the NBA and there are few chinks in the Spurs armor.
I just can't see a way for the Raptors to win this game, especially if they put up the same effort as the last.
Of course, it's easy for me to just say "shoot better" but the Spurs are an extremely solid defensive team built with some potentt offensive weapons.
If the Raptors pull out a win against the Spurs, it's going to take a lot of players having their "games of the year" at the same time.
In my opinion, it's time to think about other matters.
It's time to start questioning the goals of the 2010-2011 Raptors as this season has only a couple months left in it. There's no better development that I'd like to see than to have our own youthful core go up against the best players in the NBA. It allows them to see how far they are from being amongst the best and it allows them to see what else they can do to become better.
I'd love to see Ed Davis battle against Tim Duncan for extended periods of the game.
I'd love to see Sonny Weems and DeMar DeRozan go up against Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson.
I'd love to see our youth against the pros of the league.
However, without that clear direction, I'm afraid we'll see more of the same repetitions of the same mistakes.
So for me, this next game comes down to one word:
Growth.
It's time that it becomes the mantra of this year's team.
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What a great write up- well said
Love the “Italian Marvel” reference
It seems that most people here end up saying the same things over and over and for good reason, this team seems to do the same things wrong over and over. If I were paying Colangelo’s and Jay’s salary , I would want a clear picture of their plan for the future. In terms of priorities, the coach should be moving “assessment and development” up to first priority in front of winning. Your point about Alibi and Dorsey and also Ajinia is well taken. The coaching staff need to assess these guys and make up their minds if they are worthy of developing and if so use the floor time to do that.
As for coaching, there is something fundamentally wrong when you repeatedly stress certain things and players make no effort to do better and further to that, the coach allows it. In the news conferences, Jay has been saying the same things post game over and over for months.There comes a time where you need to put your job on the line and say it is either my way or the players way and if it’s the player’s way then see ya later.
Again there is something lacking in the Raptors organization and it is in the management side that needs to be fixed first.
The Buck handoff was one of my favourite Barney rebounds but the even better one was when it literally bounced into his hands and he looked confused for a second, like it was the first time he had seen a rebound or something. HILARIOUS. I think Jack was drinking cause he said Barney was playing good defense when what i saw on back to back possessions that he played (I think he got benched in between) was a guy who was running around the middle of the floor covering no one. Even if the Raps were playing zone he just looked lost as to where he was suppose to be. Weird.
The Raptors looked so good at the end of the half. I leave the TV to go play some Starcraft and suddenly the Raps are down by 15.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Feb 9, 2011 9:09 AM EST reply actions
They got zerg rushed
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Feb 9, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
Thats was a pretty good write up
Hope we play better tonight win or lose. This team needs talent and until we get some real talent it’s hard to truely judge the coach. Doc Rivers before the big 3 came together is a good example of what I’m talking abt. Triano has very little to work with in terms of real talent so firing him would be just wrong. Phil Jackson couldn’t get this team to win 30 games this year; we need players, good ones.
Actually I would argue that we need less players, specifically less playing time for one player until he learns to play with effort. If we reduced his minutes and increased some of the other players minutes and shots, we would at least be more competitive. (I think Weems can be thrown in there too when he doesn’t have it which seems like every other night).
I agree McGate but with all players who need a swift kick
And so again, it starts with the organization. If there is no discipline there for what ever reason, throwing better players at it ain’t goin to cure the problem. Stop trying to to treat the symtoms, cure the desease.
Two Things
Doc Rivers established a history of getting the most out of the players he had. He took a very average to below average Orlando team to the playoffs. Boston’s lack of talent was enough to get traded for the big 3, but you can’t tell me that he has realized the most out of that roster. I liken it very similarly to the Cito Gaston situation with the championship Blue Jays. So your view on Rivers is shortchanging him. I’m sure Thibodeau contributed to that outcome hence his ability to get the most out of the Bulls Roster with their best defensive player out. Raptors fans and bloggers who don’t think there is a difference between good coaching and bad coaching are destined to watch the same disappointing performances year in and year out. One could argue that that has been the biggest failing during the Colangelo era. Talent is key yes but being able to either develop that talent or win with that talent. Jay, with his not playing certain players is not developing that talent and with his not being able to take a playoff caliber roster to the playoffs last year doesn’t win when the talent is presented to him. He is lacking. Period
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Feb 9, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
It is simply a matter of fact that during the regular season coaches provide a +/- swing of 5 games, i.e. a bad coach might lose you five additional games while a good coach will get you 5 additional wins. It always comes back to the players. Pro basketball is a sport where having stars is the most important aspect of a teams success. Phil Jackson, even with Kobe on his team, couldn’t get the Lakers out of the first round for years until Gasol came along. Talent trumps coaching. It is as simple as that. If you really believe that we would be competing for a playoff spot if Doc Rivers or Phil Jackson were coaching this team you are deluding yourself. I am not saying that Triano is a closet great coach, I am saying blaming him for Bargnani’s play is like blaming the iceberg for sinking the Titanic.
Agree with McGateway
I don’t hold NBA coaching in high regard in terms of making a big difference in wins. I truly believe that even Jerry Sloan or Greg Popovich couldn’t get more than another 4 wins out of this group.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
I think the number is 4 or 5 extra wins, if you look at it from a Wins Produced standpoint. That’s the amount of wins that unproductive players like Bargnani, DeRozan, Weems and Kleiza have cost the team. Replace those guys with guys who literally give you nothing, and you’d have 4 or 5 extra wins. Maybe you add another win or two on top of that based on Sloan or Popovich or whomever getting the existing players to overachieve.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Feb 9, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
For such a "good write up"
I’m disappointed that Vicious felt it necessary to reference Andrea’s ethnicity in criticizing his play. It did a disservice to the rest of your piece even though it seemed to miss Calderon’s horrid game, but I get it. Bring up Andrea, make it sound as if he were the primary reason the offense was lacking, discredit any positives he brought to the game, and sit back and watch the Group participate in a circle jerk of negativity.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
How did I EVER bring up his ethnicity as an issue? Are you referring to “Italian Marvel”?
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Feb 9, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
yes - why was it necessary?
Maybe I’m missing a reference to something but when you use it in the context of knowing that what’s likely to follow is a torrent from Group Negative, which subsequently invites the occasional Junior High contributor to chime in with some stupid reference to his being soft because he’s European, I think you could have achieved your goals without that reference.
Not being sensitive, just asking why
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Feb 9, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure almost every time Kleiza plays there is a reference to him being Lithuanian...
And whenever Steve Nash is talked about someone invariably doles out a “Kid Canada” …
And whenever Detlef Schrempf… and whenever Vlade Divac… and, and, and…
It’s one of the most commonly done things when talking about any person, ESPECIALLY when having to repeat their name or bring them up multiple times in a short span…
You use a different way of saying the same thing…
If every time Andrea’s name was brought up he only used “Andrea Bargnani” he would lose marks if he was being graded for “repetition”… and guess what? As an AUTHOR of a PUBLISHED ARTICLE he does have to hold himself to basic literary standards… who knew?
So yea, get over it, nobody said “he’d get more rebounds if he wasn’t used to European basketball” (Although I have heard that EXACT DEFENSE of Bargnani in relation to why he’s so bad at it)… hmmm pot meet kettle? kettle meet pot?
Oh and THAT isn’t me somehow vaguely calling you an Irish immigrant or wart-nosed witch with a cauldron… it’s just a figure of speech…
KDFREATPED
+1
The Bargnani defenders are getting desperate these days… In no way was Vicious relating his ethnicity to his play. It is a coincidence that he is Italian and a terrible basketball player. Vicious was simply stating a fact – he’s Italian. This is just an attempt by Interloper to misdirect the discussion. A classic Bargs appologist tactic as they can’t debate on the merits of their position.
I was just finding different ways to refer to him other than by his name. Nothing more than that. I suppose I can see how it could have been interpreted differently since I referred to him negatively in the other references, but that wasn’t my intention.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Feb 9, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Oh and I can't believe you're comparing Andrea Bargnani to Voldemorte...
You have such a hate for Evil Sorcerers that it literally sickens me…
I am so vomitting right now all over my laptop because of the injustice and dis-service you are doing to good wizards everywhere…
KDFREATPED
since you are laying the accusation
should the question not be “whats wrong with it” before “why was it necessary”. There are thousands of things in this world that are not ‘necessary’ but are irrelevant if not problematic.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Feb 9, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
I might be a card-carrying member of the Group of Seven or Group Negative or whatever you want to call us, but I’m pretty sure my criticism of Bargnani’s play has revolved around metrics and anecdotal evidence (just watch the guy play for any extended stretch). Nobody is playing the “race card” here by referring to him as “Italian” or “Il Mago” or whatever.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Feb 9, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Infantile attempt to de-rail a debate regarding Bargnani by throwing out the race card unnecessarily.
Oh and it can’t be “a group of seven” as its pretty much a consensus now that Bargnani is a negative impact on this franchise. Its really only a handful of die-hards that keep this futile debate going.
Don't get me wrong
USUALLY I view you and the Intern as the most fair assessors of this team in terms of how you frame your arguments. I don’t see you as having as much of an agenda as your colleagues, so I was disappointed on how you chose to focus your article today. I just thought it wasn’t necessary in what was a full out criticism of Bargs without much reference to the others. If you had continued by referencing the Spanish Dry, Arkansas Air Ball, and the California Brick Layer, then yeah, it’s a theme, it has its place. But you didn’t do that.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Feb 9, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Are you completely dense?
75% of the article is about how the coaching staff and Colangelo are doing a piss poor job…
One of the things they are handling poorly is Bargs crappy play of late…
He NEVER criticized Bargs for taking too many shots, he blamed the coaches for seeming to prefer that…
Two things were mentioned directly focused on Andrea, that he only got three rebounds (and that one was a gift) and that he looked completely lost on a particular defensive set, WHICH WAS BROUGHT UP IN REFERENCE TO THE COACHES SAYING HE WAS DOING VERY WELL DEFENSIVELY (again, it was a comment about the coaching, not Bargs)
Got-damned, over-sensitive, Bargnani, nut-huggers…
KDFREATPED
OH SORRY! He also said he wasn't an efficient scorer last night!!!
What blasphemy!!
Hater!!
Racist!!
High-Schooler!!!
KDFREATPED
Bargnani
Love him or hate him he was one of only 2 players who competed and scored last night 9/21 .428 % for 23pts, with DeRozan being at 9/13 .692% and 18pts, being an unreapeatable number as he has been unconsious and the only hot shooter the last 2 games, with a season avg of .46% to Andrea’s 44%.
Everyone else who played made a total of 13 shots, as the total offensive game was a disaster, in a game to forget, and impossible to make any comments about performance except the whole team struggled to score and played decent if not great defence.
Milwaukee did not Win the game the Raptors Lost the game.
I think the main point is... and it's a coaching question...
Why not ride DeRozan until he cools off on his own rather than throwing him on a cold shower?
Even Kobe Bryant defers to Pau Gasol or Steve Blake (just so you don’t go saying Gasol is a way better option than DeRozan) when those guys are on a hot streak…
And Bargnani is NO KOBE BRYANT…
KDFREATPED
It’s starting to get a bit weird with Bargs isn’t it? I mean, the fact that he keeps getting major focus offensively…should we be reading into this a bit more? Is this a “up the trade value” situation? Is Gherardini pulling the strings?
Because I could understand (though not agree with) the whole, “he’s our best offensive option” argument earlier in the year…but lately with the way DeMar’s been playing…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Oh please, please, please, please let it be an "up the trade value situation"
However, unfortunately a "Brian Colangelo mandating that Bargnani get the major focus offensively" scenario or a "Jay (the lap dog) Triano allocating playing time and offensive opportunity with an aim to please his boss" strategy is more likely… Which sucks hard for Raptors fans.
I agree with you 100%! Bargnani’s ethnicity should not play a factor in describing his play. After all, someone might think to use his language issues a defense as to why he can’t give 100% on defense or rebound. Apparently only non-italian speaking players can box out or rebound and we don’t want people to think that.
Again, did you read the article?
Where was his ethnicity used to describe his play?
Where is this phantom reference to him being Italian being the reason he sucks at a, b, c, d, etc…?
Show me where…
Wait you can’t? Because it wasn’t? Yea, that’s what I thought too… but then I read the whole article, not just the parts that I for some reason take personal offense to… (which for me is none, just to clarify for the particularly block-headed)
KDFREATPED
Apparently Sarcasm doesn’t come out too well in text based communication. I was referring to some people in here who used the fact that English isn’t his first language (this was a couple of days ago) and I was being tongue in cheek about the point of view that it was racist to refer to Barney as Italian.
LOL I got it...
I thought we all agreed to use the “BARGS” emoticon in cases where we were being sarcastic?
That was by far the best effort I’ve seen at playing team basketball from the Raptors all year…BARGS
KDFREATPED
Wait Bargs is Italian?
I thought he was from middle earth…
Not so, but I wouldn't mind if he got traded there...
for a Balrog to guard the paint and 3-point shooting elf perhaps?
KDFREATPED
What positives did Bargnani bring to the game?
Played terrible defense, refused to rebound and was inefficient from the floor.
I bet there were only a select few
who even noticed the reference to Bargs ethnicity in that post.
“discredit any positives he brought to the game, and sit back and watch the Group participate in a circle jerk of negativity.”
game after game….“you guys are all blaming Bargnani”…. “look at the good he did in one area in one particular game”…. all while never willing to point out the usual lack of defense, lack of rebounding, inefficient offense…. yet very quick to blame any other player on the team.
Same old story… limited sample sizes, find excuses (when all else fails its the teammates), all while distracting from the larger issue. Its not about 1 game, its not about him being better, worse or equal to his ‘usual’… its that his ‘usual’ doesn’t fit what this team needs to win now or down the road. That his ‘usual’ makes games more difficult for the rest of team… all while him getting rewarded through playing time.
So yeah there were alot of worse players than Bargnani on this particular night…. just not on an average game or over a season. If Bargnani is given not only this past month as an arbiration and the last 4.5 years as ‘development’, I think Amir and Jose can have an off night or two. Weems/Derozan/Wright/Davis all have years they should be given the benifit of the doubt regardless of how bad their games or seasons are.
Can you imagine if others on this team was given the privileges Bargs was? Give Wright 20 shots a game…. Alibi 36 minutes a game…. give the ball to Dorsey at the 3 pt line and let him go to work. I mean these guys need to develop to right? Oh yeah they all get 3 more years to work on these things… its only fair.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Feb 9, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'm actually not being sarcastic
(although I realize it will never happen)… but what if all those players were given the same level of accountability, usage and responsibility that Bargnani gets? Would the same supporters feel the same way about those guys? Would they get the benifit of the doubt?
… it wasn’t ‘fair’ that Bargnani got benched in his first couple years. It wasn’t ‘fair’ that he had to play behind Bosh. It wasn’t ‘fair’ the rest of his team isn’t defensive stalwarts to make up for him. Shouldn’t that same ‘fairness’ apply to all?
Really from here on out.. nobody had a bad game because they haven’t fully developed yet. Looking at averages for a season or a career are irrelevant if someone had a random good game here or there. Ofcourse if they have a bad game one is then allowed to look at a better corresponding career/season stat. It will be awesome because nobody will be bad… its impossible. They are all developing, until they retire. This team is set. All they need is a better coach! /BARGS
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Feb 9, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Who earned touches?
While I generally agree that Bargs gets way too much burn, and while your observation that Demar had earned more “BALL” in the second half, outside of those two their options were few and far between last night. For all the criticisms of his play last night, he was one of our, er, ‘least worst’ players last night. It was an all-round stinker outside young Demar.
Where the heck are Ajinca's minutes?
This guy has size, some skills, and he hustles…
Imagine him giving Bogut a hard time while continuing to let DeMar keep up his hot shooting…
Why let Amir rack up needless fouls, you have Ajinca, Alabi, and Dorsey that can bang with the big guy, and Andrea’s scoring wasn’t nearly as crucial while DeRozan was on fire…
I don’t understand how these guys have jobs, seriously…
KDFREATPED
Growth
VD where have you been all season. From day 1 growth of the young core of this team (including Bargnani) has been the MANTRA, as determined by BC, and conducted by Triano, as well as winning as often as possible while doing so.
DeRozan, Johnson, Bayless, Bargnani, Weems, are all having career years, and Davis after a late start is starting to show his potential, as a rookie It is still important for that growth that the team is as competitive as possible under the circumnstances, and wins some games, but the season is not about how many wins.
Uhhh
I was there at media day and Colangelo was talking about how this team was going to “surprise people”. The talk was about being “in games” and being a “fighter”. That was the message throughout Media Day, Training camp, the Raptors Special on NBA TV, the articles written by the majority of the “mainstream media” during the early turnaround…
Heck, it’s how Triano and his coaches have managed their rotations.
I don’t know where the mantra of growth has been, but it’s been extremely muddled.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Feb 9, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know where the mantra of growth has been, but it’s been extremely muddled.
Bang on.
Johnn19 – I struggle with the idea of “growth of the young core” considering that prior to injuries, guys like Kleiza, Evans and Barbosa were getting major minutes.
Let’s not fool ourselves here; Jay is trying to win games and if he had those vets available, we’d be screaming even louder about the lack of PT for the youngsters.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
And I won’t even go into Mr. Andersen at the beginning of the year.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Feb 9, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Right, so if they are trying to both grow AND win some games...
WHY THE HELL IS BARGNANI SOAKING UP MINUTES THAT COULD BE SPREAD TO DEVELOPING PLAYERS?
Which is the exact point of his article…
DeRozan (developing) is having a SMOKING game… take the ball away from him (great call coach)
Bargnani is shooting for shyte AND still playing “Bargnani-Defense” … put in Ajinca for his better defense and rebounding and continue to ride DeRozan’s hot hand…
Calderon is clearly having an off game, use Bayless more (unless he was hurt, in which case you do what you did)…
Barbosa doesn’t need development, his game obviously rusty, cut back his touches instead of letting him go hog-wild every time he gets the ball…
D-E-V-E-L-O-P-M-E-N-T yes… that’s what he was talking about…
Not how some players are becoming like a festering growth…
KDFREATPED
Re PG
Bayless was in Toronto, Barbosa and Johnson were the options, and both also struggled in a game to forget as the whole team was out of sync, for whatever reason
Barbosa needed to play to get back in game shape after sitting out 12 games, as he is a key reason for the offensive struggles when on his game.
In case you did not notice Bargnani is also a developing player, as well as the teams leading scorer in a game when nobody could score.
Bargnani has five years under his belt...
AND they are all with this team…
He’s developed… don’t spew that nonsense…
Ajinca has about half a dozen games with this team, he needs developing…
Barbosa needs minutes yes, he needs restraint as well, he forced it too much last night… that is what I was referring to there… yes he needs to shake the rust off, but do it smartly and let it come back naturally instead of trying to muscle it back…
And like I said about Bayless, if he was hurt, the PG decisions were what they needed to be… good call…
KDFREATPED
P.S. Yes Bargnani is having a career year from a scoring perspective but he has regressed in almost every other facet of the game. Hardly a “career year”.
What's better than winning a gold medal in a one-legged butt-kicking contest?
Still having both your legs to begin with…
(Joked muted WAY down from the Special Olympics version)
Just because you’re doing the best you ever have, doesn’t mean you’re doing it well…
KDFREATPED
Bargnanis's "Career Year"...
From a scoring perspective is due exclusively to the fact he is getting significantly more usage/shots. Both his FG% and 3ptFG% are DOWN this year from last season.
Yes, Bargnani is having a career year, but unfortunately he’s not having a good year. Neither is Weems. For that matter, neither is DeRozan, but at least he’s been better than he was last season. The other two haven’t been better – they’ve just had more opportunities – and that’s got to be worrisome.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Feb 9, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Bargnani
That is your opinion, gained from reading all the media opinions out there, but is that the opinion of the management and coaching staff of the Raptors, who are the decision makers for Andrea ?
Bargnani’s career highs to date this year, MPG, PPG, APG, FGA, FGM, FTA, FTM, PER (espn/Hollinger) and FG% .474% after 34 games, before his current struggles at 41% in January.
I had a game in my grade twleve year where I scored 42 points...
So can I call myself a 40+ point player for the rest of my life?
I mean come on, until I slumped after that game I mean it was true for a bit…
KDFREATPED
Minutes per game are up but is that really a good thing? His play hardly warrants the minutes he is getting.
Assist per game – 0.5 its pretty hard not to have a career year in this category when your average per game is 1.2. (Which is terrible for a so called offensive focus).
FGA – this is actually one of the problem areas as he is taking way too many shots based on the fact he hits at a 44% clip.
FGM – this should go up if the attempts go up otherwise you need to be out of the NBA altogether
FTA-M- again up because of his usage and btw his percentage is actually down
PER – This is deceiving as his minutes and scoring increased this season but his rebounding rate actually decreased from his career average while his usage rate has skyrocketed.
FG% – up .01% from his career average. Look out hall of fame.
come on now
bargnani’s ppg are up… but so are his shots. In exchange his fg% is down. His freethrows have increased (about 2 per game) and his %. Overall he is less efficient offensively. (1.2 points per fg last year…. 1.16 per fg this years)
his assists are up (1.5 to 1.7 per game) but so is his usage. His turnovers are up as well. (1.5 per game to 2.5 per game). Again less efficient offensively. (1:1 to 1:1.6… this one I find much less relevent for a C, but still hurts)
his rebounds are down (from 6.2 to 5.5). His steals are up (0.3 to 0.6) but his blocks are down (1.4 to 0.9). He is less efficient defensively
his PF have also dropped, despite playing more minutes (minutes are a marginal difference right now though)…
so yeah some individual and game numbers are up (and has random career highs.. most of which were in 1 isolated game.)… but his season averages are basically down from last year. He is worse than last year… that should not be viewed as an accomplishment for a guy that is supposedly ‘developing’.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Feb 9, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Ya just ignore 25% of the season and the fact that his he's shooting 44% on the season. Signifcantly down from last year...
Face it, he has a career high in PPG simply because the management team has said force feed shots to this ineficient player that does nothing else on the basketball court….
MAS... do you ever get famished endlessly debating a subject that has no merit being debated?
If you do, try this!
It’s guaranteed to give you all the energy you need to keep up the good fight…
KDFREATPED
Fabulous post Vicious! Glad you recognized you can’t talk about what ails the Toronto Raptors without talking about Andrea Bargnani... It’s impossible.
FREE THE TORONTO RAPTORS!!
Bargnani is NOT a good offensive player. He simply is given the latitude to take a lot of shots. There are a lot of players in the league that could shoot 44% from the field and 32% from 3 point range..
Therefore, if he’s not a good offensive player and terrible rebounder AND a GOD AWFUL defender, why the hell is he playing?
TRADE ANDREA BARGNANI, FREE THE TORONTO RAPTORS, LET THE KIDS PLAY!!
Interesting take on Triano as a coach from an ALL Star who has played for him in the past...
Kevin Love:
He calls Triano a “player’s coach” and says he basically let’s the players have the freedom to do what they want to do…
Sounds just like my high school coach who gave us the keys to the gym and told us to bring them back when we were done practicing…
KDFREATPED
DEVELOPING... what does it REALLY mean?
Something I was thinking about…
Developing and Improving, while often correlated, don’t mean the same thing…
Andrea IS NOT improving, stats show that… SEE ABOVE
He may still be developing however… part of “developing” is figuring out what is the best way you can help your team… mindlessly jacking up bad shots in a desperate effort to get your “shot back on track” isn’t the best way to help the team…
Bargnani SHOULD be evaluating his own play, regardless of whether coach is okay with him being a violent up-chucker, and developing into a better asset to the team…
I have seen flashes in games where he looked for a red hot DeRozan over forcing a shot himself… I know he CAN do this… he needs to choose to do this…
Sometimes having a vast array of weapons means while you’re deciding which one to use the other guy has already cut your throat…
Keep it simple, keep it smart… or in this case MAKE it simple, MAKE it smart… cause it sure isn’t either of those things right now…
KDFREATPED
Glad I didn't watch last night's game
It seems to have left you all in a pretty cranky mood today. The game sounds like it was terrible, so I don’t blame you.
From the boxscore, it seems like DeRozan was the only guy who had a good offensive game. Johnson battled hard if he got 11 boards, but I guess his shooting touch deserted him for the night.
I am fully on board with those who want Bargnani to limit his offense to 3s and post ups. He needs to have a more tightly defined role if he is going to help this team.At least he got to the line a few times last night, otherwise his numbers would have been totally horrible.
The Raptors desperately need to hit a few 3s each night or we are going to see a lot more of these scorelines in the 70s.
Bogut’s 6-8 shooting and 5 blocks tells me that he more or less dominated the paint last night. Too bad, he is the kind of guy that Andrea should match up reasonable well against. He’s not super-fast or super-strong and he doesn’t have a size a advantage.
There was one post up in particular...
I hope someone can find a video…
Bogut backed down Bargs made a spin move baseline to the hoop and ended up with a free dunk…
Bargs literally was still standing there, arms wide. with a shocked look on his face like “POOF! He just disappeared!? Where did he go?” Still had his back to Bogut while he was dunking two steps after the spin move…
I laughed out loud and my wife thought I was going nuts…
KDFREATPED
It’s priceless when you are Bucks fan, but it’s really pathetic when you cheer for the Raps. Although, I have to say it’s been quite a while since I cheered for the Raps. Yeah you right! It was very funny. I guess Bargs would be a great stand up comedian: that’s what he does best he stands there and everyone is laughing… oh! Unless he is throwing bricks. I guess he could be a great mason too. He is a very talented guy LMAO
by siouxsie30_rep on Feb 9, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Love this from Joseph Casciaro at The Score
The third quarter was incredibly frustrating to watch as a basketball fan, let alone a Raptors fan. Forget that the Raps only scored 20 in the quarter or that both teams were sloppy. What was frustrating was that it took 11-and-a-half minutes to get the only Raptor that was shooting well, DeRozan, a shot in the third quarter. And it took a three-on-one fast break to get him that shot attempt.
Instead, Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon clanked jumper after jumper while DeRozan wasted away in the corner. Now I know that part of the problem is that DeMar needs to be more assertive and demanding on offence, but as a teammate, when you know only one guy on your team is feeling it on a particular night, how do Andrea Bargnani, Jose Calderon and Sonny Weems combine for 46 shot attempts (of which they combined for just 13 makes), while DeRozan gets just 13? It doesn’t add up, and I don’t know whether to attribute it to poor coaching, ignorant/negligent players, or just overall stupidity from all involved.
KDFREATPED
by Mikthaniel on Feb 9, 2011 1:44 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It is really mind boggling.
Jay may be a nice guy and maybe he has a lot of basketball knowledge, but he cannot coach. I am sorry, but being a coach it is a bit more than just being there, talking about things and then not doing anything to improve and then making lousy excuses all the time… I “love” what Jay said after yesterdays loss: “A lot of our shots were open shots, but at the same time, they contested and were physical. Sometimes that takes your confidence away.” What did he expect that the other team would just show up for practice and they would not defend and be physical? This is NBA, this is what they supposed to do to win, so please…
Just get a new coach. The young players really deserve better…
AND the entire team has to show show some emotion, get mad, get some adrenaline going, get a few technical fouls and stand up for each other … they really need a new coach: a guy with a SET between his legs…
by siouxsie30_rep on Feb 9, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
practice
“What did he expect that the other team would just show up for practice…” Part of the problem lately is that Triano’s team doesn’t show up for practice. Literally, physically, not enough bodies. The accumulated impact of the injuries can huge (on many levels) with a younger team like this.
by los sonadores on Feb 9, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Great read Vicious
I missed this one last night but was flabbergasted when I saw the score and highlights this morning. How the hell did they just forget about DeRozan??
Well now I know.
As some have said today, the younger players deserve better and it scares the hell out of me that we may see this type of game-plan for another 30 or so games.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
I’d suggest spamming the Raptors front office with anti-Bargnani comments would be more useful. Even the Bargnani lovers can’t be enjoying the way he has been playing this past month. I think people enjoy breaking down errors and looking at stats, but constant whining gets old, even when you are right.
So just ignore him? When he, at this point, is a huge part of the problem? What does that accomplish? Also, there would be a lot less Bargnani traffic on this site if Bargnani supporters weren’t making wild and unfounded claims all the time. There would be nothing to debate.
There is no need to pound the Bargnani lovers into submission. If they want to delude themselves then let them go ahead. Who cares? It’s not like they have management’s ear any more than the rest of us do.
I disagree on the "management influence" piece
You don’t think fans influence personel decisions? If the drum beat is lowd enough, MLSE will be forced to listen. Face it, TV ratings have to be down this season, ticket sales are WAY down, the team isn’t winning. If enough fans make their feelings known that Bargnani is more “part of the problem” than “part of the solution” Colangelo will have preasure to get a deal done. Or better yet, maybe MLSE starts to doubt the ability of Colangelo to act objectively and doesn’t pick up his contract.
What profit driven entity doesn’t listen to their customer base? Answer – one that’s out of business. So to suggest we can have no impact on the decision to trade Bargnani is faulse.
Right, I agree with that. However, the logical conclusion to what you are saying is that you should be deluging MLSE with your disapproval of Bargnani, not this forum. I am sure it would be a great compliment to RHQ if the MLSE brass visited this site on a regular basis, but sadly I doubt that they do. Sorry guys :(
MAS, a Doug Smith quote to cheer you up
Hope I am not violating copyright by pasting part of Doug Smith’s chat from today’s Star:
Question: “Doug, I think Bargs gets a lot of unnecessary hate around here. He’s my favourite Raptor. However, it does bother me that his rebounding has actually gotten worse this year. Do you think the organization is troubled by this as well?”
by Marcel at 2/9/2011 5:55:05 PM12:55 PM
Answer: “Of course they are; and getting to my point about developmental time, I think we know what he is: A uniquely skilled 7-foot shooter without the requisite fast-twitch fibres or basketball IQ to track missed shot particularly well.”
by dgsmith at 2/9/2011 5:56:22 PM12:56 PM
When even Doug Smith is making negative comments about Bargnani(however mild they may be) you know that the message must be getting through at least a bit.
As I said, spam MLSE with your complaints about Bargs. That’s where your energy will do the most good.
discussing ideas in an open manner
allows people (in this case the consumer) to hear and analyze multiple ideas
They than make use of those ideas in whatever way they see fit. It may get them wanting to see a game, keep them from going to a game, or have no impact what so ever.
Media people do read this and also make comments based on these ideas (we are also their target audience aswell don’t forget)
It gives a general feel for what the fan base is thinking. And that will always get back to those running the organization (I would also not be suprised if MLSE or the Raps did have people following blogs just to see what the fan base does think. This isn’t 1990 anymore… everyone is connected and it only takes 5 minutes a day to read up. Although I doubt it has a direct impact – ie. oh this guy defensive stance doesn’t like Bargnani, so we should trade him)
Don’t think for an instance MLSE/BC doesn’t know what fans are thinking. Whether they listen or agree with them is an entirely different story.
However I do think getting the ACC to boo Bargnani when call the starters would probably have a pretty significant direct impact
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Feb 9, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. If the Raptors don’t stay in touch with what commenters are saying on message boards and blogs, then I would be REALLY worried. What business leader wouldn’t tap a free, un filtered, direct conduit to their customer’s reactions to their product and decision making? That would just be stupid.
Good Read
Bargnani isn’t getting traded this year. He’s a BYC player so, at best, it would have to be summer before that could realistically happen.
I have to say is that I don’t necessarily have a problem with Bargnani taking 21 shots, and I think that the criticism lobbed at him for his last 2 games is a little unfair. Has he been spectacular in either game? No, but he hasn’t been as god awful as he was in January either.
My problem was with Demar being on the court for the entire third quarter and not getting a touch, outside of his dunk on a 3 on 1 at the end of the quarter.
Why wasn’t our point guard getting him the ball?
Why wasn’t our coach calling plays for him?
Getting Demar involved isn’t really Bargnani’s responsibility. He’s good at one thing, and I’d rather see him and go out there and try to do that one thing well than try to get others involed. Because we know if he’s not scoring, he’s a pretty significant liability out there.
But the fact that we weren’t even trying to run some of our offense through Demar is very concerning. He was 5 for 6 at half, and he had Corey Maggette guarding him. If your team is having trouble scoring, that would be a pretty good place to start to solve that problem.
I’m not even saying he had to shoot, but the very least that should have happened was that they should have given him the ball on the wing and see how Milwaukee reacts. Does Milwaukee double him? If not, he torches Maggette in all likelihood. If they do double, that leaves somebody wide open for a jumper.
That falls on coaching and I am really starting to question Triano’s agenda. I’d love to know what the gameplan was last night and what, if any, adjustments were made.
Last I checked, Demar was a significant part of our future, so the fact that he couldn’t get a play called for him is unacceptable, plain and simple.
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