Magloire Fits Raptors' "Building" Plans
by Adam Francis on Dec 8, 2011 12:15 PM EST
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While nothing's official yet, it sounds like the Toronto Raptors are about a day away from signing free-agent center Jamaal Magloire. The HQ takes a look at the potential signing and how he fits with the team's short and long-term plans.
Yesterday afternoon, Toronto Raptors' President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo spoke with the media regarding the upcoming season.
It was the sort of media pow-wow Colangelo has typically had where he talks in generalities about the upcoming season, and wades through some macro level issues regarding the team.
However something felt quite different about this presser.
Sure, there were the usual Colangelo cliches, and Dwane Casey spoke of how much work had yet to be done, something we've heard from former Raptors' bench bosses like Sam Mitchell and Jay Triano, but there was one quote that really struck a chord with me.
Said Colangelo:
"We're laying the foundation for what's next. When Chris Bosh decided to leave, we decided to go in a different direction and that's where we've found ourselves." "You are competitive, you do want to win every game, but the reality of it is, this year, it isn't in the cards. We're going to do everything we can to fight and if we somehow get to the playoffs, that will be a great story and we'll all be talking about it."
As colleague Ryan Wolstat of the Toronto Sun pointed out, it's not quite Rob Babcock's "throw the white flag before the season even begins," but it's from my vantage point, the most candid and realistic take that Colangelo's ever given regarding his Raptors, during his tenure.
And I have to applaud that.
As opposed to the Babcock comment that was essentially a PR disaster as soon as the final words were off the tip of his tongue, here Colangelo is saying what we all know to be true, that this team doesn't have the same talent as the league's top squads, but he expects it to go out and fight hard every game while embracing a new coach and culture.
BC's not advocating tanking, no sane GM can do that, especially coming out of a lockout that will surely impact revenue at the gate, but he knows that there are only so many times you can fail to advance past the first round of the playoffs, or fail to reach them at all, all the while claiming "we're not far off."
To that end, the reported interest the Toronto Raptors have in Jamaal Magloire makes a ton of sense.
Toronto's waiting on its Lithuanian Golden Child, Jonas Valanciunas, and needs a stop-gap solution at center for this season. Of the available free agent options, the desired ones (Nene, Tyson Chandler, etc) are too pricey, and others, even those such as rumoured soon-to-be-King Chuck Hayes, aren't exactly going to put this team back into the playoffs.
Yet a veteran voice who can hold his own on the defensive side of the ball is a must.
See this is where things get tricky for Colangelo.
On one side, he needs to get this team back on track and part of that means getting it to understand the word defense to some degree. The team has to show some form of improvement in the next two years for the sake of fan and player retention, never mind him keeping his own job. He claimed yesterday that the team is no longer "talking about re-building," but looking for solid "building blocks" for the future.
That's why it's probably been incredibly tempting for Colangelo to make some form of splash via free-agency when it opens at 2 PM EST tomorrow, even with a limited amount of funds to work with. This is what he's done in the past, he's a tinkerer and loves to move the pieces around. And what's one way to encourage your fan base and show current players that you're serious about competing? Bring in some free-agent names people recognize!
And yet as tempting as it may be, he knows that even mid-sized free-agent splashes this off-season are likely only going to result in another middling incarnation of the Dinos, one that won't make the playoffs, or advance very far, especially considering the available free-agents this off-season.
It's the old "rock and a hard place" situation.
Colangelo needs the team to lose a good chunk of its games in effort to get a higher draft pick, but can't have the team being blown out each night, killing all fan interest and completely demoralizing his young talent that he may wish to retain, and who are trying to learn a new system under a new coach.
So and that's why this Jamaal Magloire signing would make a great deal of sense.
Magloire isn't going to repeat his All-Star season with the Hornets when he averaged a double-double of 14 points and 10 rebounds. (I know, I know, Jamaal Magloire was an All-Star?)
But he's still a very capable rebounder and shot-blocker and one of the better defensive options out there in terms of veteran, free-agent centers. His averages of nearly 11 rebounds and 2 blocks per 36 minutes over his career back this up, and his advanced stats bear out the benefits of having him on your club.
In fact it's Magloire's horrendous free-throw shooting that keeps various marks such as PER and Wins Produced from being quite respectable. He's averaged only 45 per cent from the charity stripe over his last five seasons despite being a respectable free-throw shooter upon entering the league, an enigma noted by Wages of Wins a few seasons ago.
Considering his rebounding rate the last few seasons was nearly on par with Reggie Evans (20.47 for Magloire versus 21.5 for Evans), and they have a similarly limited offensive skill set, Magloire effectively becomes a cheaper, better defending and shot-blocking version of Evans.
And a nice PR story as a Canadian to boot.
The one-year contract he's reported to be signing in fact will be a huge factor here as it gives Toronto a lot of flexibility the season after next, something that was unlikely should the Raps have chosen to pursue players like Hayes, DeAndre Jordan, or perhaps even Jeff Foster and Kwame Brown.
So Colangelo adds a cheap, short-term solution at center, one that won't impact future cap space or likely the club's wins total this year, and yet takes hopefully a baby step towards defensive improvement with the signing, all in one shot.
Like Ricky from Trailer Park Boys would say, Colangelo gets "two birds stoned at once" with the move, one that I'll be quite pleased with if/when it's announced tomorrow.
Sure, it's not a glamorous move from a fan perspective. Magloire averaged less than nine minutes a game for Miami last year, and played in only 18 contests.
But if you're wondering if he can still be effective in doses, all you need to do is rewind to Toronto's last game of 2010-11 season. The Miami Heat, minus LeBron, Wade and Bosh, trounced the Raptors 97 to 79.
Magloire was a plus 22 on the night, outrebounding Toronto's bigs, all by himself as he finished with 19 boards in 29 minutes.
Sign me up.
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He Is Better Than
Ajinca, Dorsey and Alabi.
Speaking of Alabi I wonder when BC will cut him loose? Right now BC and DC need the cheap warm body so Alabi will probably stick around for 2011-12. Maybe he will get the opportunity to show that he can play in the NBA?
In the meantime Magloire brings toughness and can give the Raptors 10+ minutes in a game when needed to go up against the bigger Centers in the league.
Nice pickup.
Magloire makes sense
I am expecting to see continued improvement on defence from Ed and Amir this year, but they don’t have the bulk to cover the league’s big centres.
I agree with Adam and Buddahfan, Magloire makes sense for the Raps this season. If things work out he might even be around for a season or two afterwards to serve as a tutor for Valanciunas.
The Raptors haven’t had a reliable big man defender since Nesterovic’s first stint in Toronto. It will be a nice change, even if it is only for 10 minutes a game.
They should cut Alabi right after cutting Amir Johnson. Dude, Alabi has had one year and costs a fraction of what Johnson does. Did Alabi date your sister or something? Why all the hate?
I Have No Problem With The Raptors Cutting Amir
He will be a positive force wherever he plays in 2011-12 and forward.
He is now healthy for the first time in years.
His left ankle which was operated on was first injured back in as I recall 2008 when he stepped on Jarvis Hayes foot and wound up with a serious left ankle sprain.
IMO having watched him play before and after that injury he has never been as athletic or quick since that injury.
I think this operation was needed by him years ago and he will be better now because of it.
We shall see.
Yeah cutting Alabi makes zero sense here. The team gave up a lot to get him in the draft (considering the financial cost now placed on draft picks, even second rounders) and has BARELY given him a shot. Not to mention that Alabi is much more of a true 5 than Amir. Keep both, let them play.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
I Will Forget The True 5 Part
We all know what I think about stuff like that.
This is what I posted about Alabi playing for the Raptors in 2011-12
so Alabi will probably stick around for 2011-12.
As I said on the last thread I love this deal. You get a serviceable stop gap at a minimum, one year contract who is a vet that can hopefully impart some wisdom to the kids. However, maybe more importantly, we have an indication in this signing that Colangelo is not going the quick fix route, and thank God. There were rumours a week ago that the Raptors were kicking the tires on Chandler and Gasol. While I love both players, I’m glad Colangelo has finally seen the light (3 – 4 years later than myself and many others on this site) and is committed to a serious rebuild strategy.
Next on his list should be a wing and a 3rd string PG. I think he should go high risk/reward project in both cases. The Raps are rebuilding and I don’t care what Colangelo says or doesn’t say – they’re "tanking" (only in terms of waiting for a good draft pick) so why not give time to a potential surprise player?
For example, why not take a shot on Acie Law as a 3rd string PG. He was a dynamite collage player who did not transition well to the NBA, but maybe there’s a chance he needs more seasoning?
I think that BC and DC will give as many minutes as they can to Ed, Amir, JJ. and JB to see what they want to do with them come next off-season. Bargnani and DeMar will get their 30+ MPG unless Amir has added enough strength to start at Center.
IMO the only signings or trades the Raptors will make will be backups most likely 3rd stringers in other words nothing of major significance.
We shall see
Besides the obvious parts of this signing I’m thrilled about… Great part about veteran signings like this is that they only partially count against the cap. Although he signs a 10+ year veteran minimum contract (~1.4 million), he only counts against the cap at the rate of a 2-year veteran (0.85 million). So that’s a half million more cap space to use in any other signings or trades.
Kudos to you sir, well played...
"the Truth"
by Mikthaniel on Dec 8, 2011 10:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Huge point by dhackett here that I neglected to address:
Great part about veteran signings like this is that they only partially count against the cap. Although he signs a 10+ year veteran minimum contract (~1.4 million), he only counts against the cap at the rate of a 2-year veteran (0.85 million). So that’s a half million more cap space to use in any other signings or trades.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
The 2011-12 Compacted Schedule and How Raptors Players Have Performed Previously
Lets look at career PPG and RPG for the Raptors Bigs excluding JM and how they have performed over their careers with 0, 1, 2, 3+ days rest between games. This will be more relevant this season with the compacted schedule
Bargnani
-———————-
0 – 13 – 5.0
1 – 15.6 – 5.0
2 – 17.5 – 4.7
3+ – 14.2 – 4.7
Amir
-——————
0 – 6.5 – 4.5
1 – 6.7 – 5.4
2 – 5.1 – 4.5
3+ 3.7 – 3.4
Ed
-————
0 – 9.4 – 8.3
1 – 7.1 – 7.0
2 – 8.1 – 6.8
3 – 6.5 – 5.2
Based upon history the compacted schedule does not bode well for Bargnani. It should help Ed and Amir.
Good signing that makes sense
Now I wouldn’t mind adding either Earl Watson (good vet) or Marcus Williams as 3rd pgs and Dante Jones (with TPE) or try to convince Memphis to give up Xavier Henry for 2mil and a second round pick in 2012. Henry fell out of favor fast last yr
Acie Law as mentioned above is also a guy I always liked.
I’m curious what other small moves will be made.
I'd invite Terrico White to camp now that he's a free agent
He has attitude but a lot of potenial as well.
He’s young and could probably be signed to an unguaranteed 1 year minimum deal. So I don’t see the risk.
agree with the shooting but let's remember White played mostly SG at Ole Miss with a
shoot first PG. He’s a good ball handler and great slasher so he’d be worth a look at least.
They Said That About Avery Bradley Too
Pass on both of them.
Not sure you can really judge Bradley based on 31 games and average of 5 minutes per game on a stacked Celtics team. Again, you like to throw babies out with bath water. Maybe Bradley will be bust (or is) but one year is kind of rough.
He Didn't Play Because He Wasn't and Isn't Good Enough
IMO the guy was over-hyped in Raptor-land just like Kemba because of many Raptors fans obsession with getting rid of Jose.
If The Knicks Amnesty Billups
should the Raptors make a run at him?
Three four years ago I would say yes but then three four years ago the Knicks wouldn’t have consider giving amnesty to Billups even if they could have.
Seems Billups is pretty upset about perhaps getting amnestied. Agent says he won’t be going along with the waiver process (at least happily) unless it’s a team of his choosing.
I don't think he has a choice does he?
Unless he wants to forfit his remaining salary…
Yeah, but players bully their way through stuff like that all the time. Technically he has no choice in the matter, but he is telling teams now, “buyer beware.” Might not get 100% effort from a player after a statement like that.
Yeah I’d stay away from Chauncey based on the Twitter chatter from Woj. Also, Billups would be an awesome addition NEXT year, when Toronto has Val, another top pick (likely) and money to work with to bring in some solid, veteran help. This year the team should just let things play out.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Billups Could Be Working In The Next Obama Administration
assuming Ron Paul doesn’t beat him next November. LOL
Not Meant To Be Funny
He is a big time Obama supporter. Did you watch the video? Not every dude gets a platform like he got to speak about why Obama should be elected.
Google Billups and Obama and you will find many articles about Billups vocal support for Obama and involvement in Obama’s 2008 Presidential campaign.
It has been my opinion from 2008 that Billups got traded by Davidison the Pistons owner at the time because Davidson was a big time GOP supporter and he was ticked off by Billups vocal support and activism for Obama. I have no proof for this but I found it interesting that the Pistons would trade Billups for a used up Iverson just in Oct/Nov because he had an expiring contract the following June after Billups had spent the previous summer being so vocal and active in his support for Obama.
This was not just saying that he supported Obama but Billups was a big time Obama activist that summer.
JMO
Chandler
reported offer – 60 million 4 years …. Golden States
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba_rumors.shtml
Biedrins possible amnesty
At the right price, could this be a Raptor option (3 years includes player option – so probably only 2). I realize Raptors should stay the course, but if amnesty adds to the available talent pool – do we pull the trigger. Andris is only 25.
.
Player option will be included in the deal if picked up on waivers. Team options are eliminated, but not player options.
I’d make a bid – but wouldn’t go above MLE level.
re: Biedrins
I recall him going into some kind of funk with his offensive game, to the point where he didn’t even want the ball on offense and had his role diminish significantly in the Golden State rotation. Not sure as to the cause, inability to hit free throws consistently a possible cause. I would be looking for a more consistent presence if we were targeting a “young vet” such as himself. We are in for enough ups and downs as develop our young bigman core moving forward. I also question whether Jonas V, in a simplified role, would make Biedrins redundent when he comes over next year?
we need building blocks.... to build... to build... BTW.. who in FA is a building block? I need to know...help me...
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
..and I'm worried that we find out why Jamaal Magloire doesn't get much PT ....
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
..and that chuck hayes pans out in SAC town... as 'one of those guys' every team would just love to have...
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Magloire Is A Roster Filler
who can play some decent backup minutes at Center.
Good guy in the locker room. Would help in practice too. Unfortunately this season there won’t be a lot of practice. LOL
What do you think of James Jones of MIA would add to our wing? Is he a building block? He can shoot the 3 (would make franchise happy)... and can play D (which makes me happy)
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
I don’t see us in a position to purchase “building blocks”, as in foundation pieces, on the FA market. I see it mostly as a means to acquire character veterans who can help set a good example for our younger players. Of course not even a million Antonio Davis and Charles Oakleys could set Vince Carter right. I guess that’s where that BC saying “We’re looking for not that just good players, but good people” comes into play.
Buyer Beware
two years ago, before Nelson wrote him off he was 22 and coming off two consecutive seasons as a defense first center with a PER above 19, if the contract isn’t prohibitive he’s worth a shot
Pass and Double Pass
He brings nothing to the Raptors.
I wouldn’t even trade Bargnani for him.
Now That Amir and Andrea Are Neighbors?
I may have a change of heart about Bargnani? LOL
CB Did Average 16 PPG With Wiz Last Season
He also has some good playoff experience which is more than most of the Clippers rotation players have other than Mo.
trade proposal
Could what’s left of Denver be interested in a trade Amir for Gallinari? The two make roughly the same money and have similar age, Gallinari is young enough to be part of a rebuild and if we get a better prospect at SF he can be a hell of a punch out of the bench…
Disclaiomer I did not go and verify the current Denver Roster, I remember half of them are in China and they are about to lose Nene. Maybe I am talking nonsense
PS Buddafan is going to spit me in the face, Let’s see if I have any lateral speed left in the tank :)
PS Buddafan is going to spit me in the face,
Why would I do that?
Sounds like a reasonable trade to me.
I Am Serious About The Trade Idea
Sounds good to me.
the joke part
was about the spitting, for the rest I was serious too
where the rumor was
real or you were just throwing a stone on the lake to see what sort of waves it would make?
sorry, now I got it
What I understood is that you had previously made this tweet
Yep – here’s a plan: If the Nuggets were up for this (doubt it), we trade Amir for Gallinari (a decent return), move Bargnani (we can’t play Gallinari and Bargs beside each other) for a point guard prospect and/or a pick, and pick one of the premiere C/PF prospects in this year’s draft. Not bad.
Of course. That’s why I said you can’t play Bargs beside Gallo – PF and SF are right beside each other.
True enough – I put that badly. Point is, the two should never be in the same lineup at all together. As MAS puts it below, we’ve tried the two-awful-defenders-or-more in the lineup when Turk was here, and it went great.
I do not know any stat on this
is Gallinari perceived as a bad defender? Thai is not what he was known for. do you have better info on this or is it considered to be by analogy?
Hey Renato
Please just go to this site http://www.eurobasket.com/Italy/basketball.asp
Or start your own site where you can talk about Italian basketball players all day and night. The thought of this team actually trading for Gallinari just made everyone who read this post dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul…
Forrest MAS
Stupid is who stupid does
really , when one think you (MAS) have reached rock bottom you amaze everybody by starting digging. Out of curiosity, how old are you?
Hey, why don’t the Raptors amnesty DeRozan to make room to sign Bellinelli? Maybe Gheradhini can make an open jump shot, let’s give him a roster spot…. Any other ideas?
Forrest, no Italians?
that is a sound basketball argument. Any other group you on your “don’t list”? What about Jewish? Muslims? Chinese? gays?
MAS - get what you need to get out of your system... what is at the root of this? You don't care for Europeans much, this I know. But come on? What's up man? You know I will be fair with you... whatever is at the root of it?
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
I don’t care where players are from. My only point is the ONLY thing Renato cares about is where the player is from… There is no other explanation for his positions. It has become exceedingly tiresome. Of all the players in the world, I wonder why Renato chose Gallinari… I would hope on an intelligent board like this people would call me out if I posted nonsense. I would encourage it. I will certainly call it out and trading Amir Johnson for Gallinari is nonsense!
I think if the two teams started a discussion based on Amir for Gallo, the Nuggets say no first.
And I think renato is simply more familiar with Italian players, thus he mentions them and thinks about them more often – he probably (certainly) has a bias there, as do we all at times, but in this instance I think you are blowing it way out of proportion. Gallinari is not a great defender, but he is a better scorer at a less defense-critical position than Bargs, and can definitely be a useful piece.
Bingo
this is not a religious issue, I could think of that trade, you’ve go a better one in mind, just post it.
I mean, none here walks around with the truth in their pockets and, at the end, this is just about basketball. I wasn’t even aware there had been already a discussion with the Nuggets and I find now THEY were the one turning it down which would imply there is more than one way to look at things and they thought that, in that trade"they" would have come up short…..
Disagree, Danillo has a career 42FG% and is an abhorant defensive player. He is a mini Andrea Bargnani. Sorry, we’ve had enough of this type of experience. The thought of adding Gallinari to a front court that already includes Bargnani is nonsense. How would this be better than the Turkaglu experiment (two TERRIBLE defenders in the starting front court)? So no I’m not over reacting.
I stated above that this deal would obviously be contingent on moving Bargnani for it to even be conceivable.
Yep – here’s a plan: If the Nuggets were up for this (doubt it), we trade Amir for Gallinari (a decent return), move Bargnani (we can’t play Gallinari and Bargs beside each other) for a point guard prospect and/or a pick, and pick one of the premiere C/PF prospects in this year’s draft. Not bad.
Who cares what you stated? My response, which you were responding to and characterised as “blowing out of proportion” was to Renato’s initial post which had no inferance to a Bargnani trade. However, since you bring it up, would I prefer a team with Gallinari on it than a team with Bargnani on it? Yes. If nothing else but for salary flexibility.
You said “Disagree” referring to this post, written by me:
I think if the two teams started a discussion based on Amir for Gallo, the Nuggets say no first.
And I think renato is simply more familiar with Italian players, thus he mentions them and thinks about them more often – he probably (certainly) has a bias there, as do we all at times, but in this instance I think you are blowing it way out of proportion. Gallinari is not a great defender, but he is a better scorer at a less defense-critical position than Bargs, and can definitely be a useful piece.
Could you clarify which part of that post you disagree with based on what you just said?
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
It’spretty obvious I disagree with the following (not sure why I have to road map it for you, it’s all in my response?)
-you stating that I am blowing this out of proportion.
- Gallinari being a useful piece
I see now that you were walking into your response to my comment – that was a direct response to Renato’s original post – with it already in your head that you had posted it would make sense if Bargnani was traded. However, if you follow the path correctly you will notice I responded directly to Renato’s post, where he makes NO mention of a coinciding Bargnani trade. In fact I’m pretty dam sure Renato was pining for a all Italian front court. Does this clarify things for you? Do you understand now that you are having a different conversation with me than the one I was having with Renato?
-you stating that I am blowing this out of proportion.
This was in reference to your assertion that Renato only cares about a player’s nationality. Whereas I saw it as simply that he was biased, but not that it was all he cared about, and used my belief (which does not coincide with yours, fair enough) that the trade was not that lopsided to support that.
- Gallinari being a useful piece
And this is the sort of comment that is more fun discussing! I think he can be a very useful piece. He posted a WS/48 of 0.139, which although is just a stat, is nothing to sneeze at. He shoots extremely well, with a TS% of close to .600, and rebounds as much as Bargnani does, from the SF spot. And his defense is not great, but it’s not all that bad – on the Nuggets last year (admittedly only a partial season) as they went on that winning run to end the season, the team was 9.5 points per 100 possessions better defensively when he was on the floor versus off, so he can’t be all that awful.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Going to just ignore the Renato comment as you and I obviously see it differently….
As for Gallinari, firstly his career TS% is .587 and his eFG% was a pedestrian .495 last season. His TS% is high based on his foul shooting, but he doesn’t draw a lot of fouls as he is not a slasher (because he’s not quick) but a “shooter”. Then, when you evaluate his shooting percentages, his overall FG% is 42% which is not that great. As for the defense, the stat you’ve provided is problematic as it is very dependant on the unit he was playing with as well as sample size (partial season).
Similar story to Bargnani, his offense just doesn’t make up for his defensive shortcomings. And a 4.4 rbs/game career average is not that great for a 6’9" SF.
Really – you are stating that his TS% is skewed and use his FG% to show he is a bad shooter? TS% is not just an amalgamation of percentages. It is based on points scored versus shots and free throws taken. So if he took very few free throws, they wouldn’t affect his TS% much. But he doesn’t – he takes close to 7 FTA per game. So you can’t just discount that part of his offense.
And his greatest strength is his 3FG% – which was .352 last season – not great, but certainly good. And if you look at his career numbers (which you seem very willing to do) he posts a much more respectable .376 – if he can revert to that rate, and continue his year over year increases in getting to the line, he could be a very potent offensive player.
As for rebounding… His TRB% last season was 8.3 – admittedly it seems low. But compared to other SF’s…
Other SF’s between 7 and 9 TRB% last season, in order of descending TRB%:
Danny Granger, (Gallo), Hedo Turkoglu, Grant Hill, Caron Butler, Tayshaun Prince, Dorell Wright, Reggie Williams, Richard Jefferson, Carlos Delfino, Peja Stojakovic…. I could keep going. There are a bunch much lower than that too.
I never said rebounding was a strength, but he is at least about average for a SF in terms of rebounding – he won’t hurt you there like Bargs does.
And there simply isn’t the statistical evidence that he is a defensive sieve like Bargs. He held his opponents to a 12.5 PER when he played SF for the Nuggets last year, and to 15.3 PER at SF when he played for the Knicks – the Knicks, who allow every player in the league to look like a superstar offensively. And then add in the DRTG impact I showed above and the stats just don’t support your suggestions.
Bargnani, in comparison, allows his opponents to average a 21.1 PER against him. He has a DRTG impact of 5.5 points per 100 worse when he steps on the floor.
Other than the stats, we have only people’s viewing experience, and yours says he’s a bad defender and mine says he’s decent. So either we consider all the evidence, and come to a conclusion, or we toss all the empirical evidence out the window and agree to disagree.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
RFLMAO
heisamirjohnson heisamirjohnson
RT @young_onez: No truth to rumors of Amir Johnson being traded to denver for Galinari. NO TRUTH. Just twitter rumors….#nothingtoseehere
2 minutes ago
Young Onez
young_onez Young Onez
No truth to rumors of Amir Johnson being traded to denver for Galinari. NO TRUTH. Just twitter rumors….#nothingtoseehere
3 minutes ago
LOL
I didn’t know that I had any Hoops followers. I follow very few basketball players or writers on Twitter, maybe @AlldayThomas (Adonis Thomas) and few NBA website twitter accounts that is all. I don’t follow Amir, HeisAmir or Young_Ones so this came as a total surprise to me.
I do however have a NBA list on Twitter that includes about 110+ NBA related Twitter accounts including Amir, HeIsAmir and Young_Ones
Too funny
As the mythbusters would say
the idea has to be at least plausible to set this kind of wheels in motion …
Like I Said
I like the trade.
I think it would make sense for both teams.
Incorrect
I watch the Raptors on NBA Broadband Access and NBA TV. So I don’t think it would make a difference.
My reasoning for liking the trade was and is.
1. The Raptors need outside shooting which Gallo would bring
2. The Raptors need a legit NBA starting SF which Gallo would bring
3. Amir and Davis are pretty much redundant. I doubt that we will ever see both of them playing 35 MPG together on the Raptors unless forced to by injuries.
4. I really prefer not to see Amir go back to being a bench player. Davis could very well make that happen. At Denver based upon their roster Amir would start.
Moreover
As much as one may like Amir (I do) and irrespective on what Forrest would think and hope, he is unlikely to net you Kobe or Lebron. If there is a better trade prospect, bring it on.
I put the idea forward singing James Jones SF. He shoots the 3--ball and can defend - What's not to like if the price is right?
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
I may be getting confused
Wasn’t James jones part of the 2006 roster and then traded?
I
gotta agree with you on this one MAS
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 8, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
I told you
Hoopshype tomorrow
NBA tv in a week, Holly Mc Kenzie who?
Keep Dreaming About Harrison Barnes
TY has shown he can play in the NBA. Barnes is a great prospect and will most likely be very good but will he be better than TY? No one knows. Besides a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Its not like TY is old or can’t play. He doesn’t have much of a 3 point shot but he can definitely score, play up tempo basketball and is a pretty good defender.
For Smitch Fans Who Get NBA.TV
AschNBA Steve Aschburner
Former NBA Coach of Year (w/ TOR) Sam Mitchell will be on NBA TV set Friday w/ Matt Winer, Greg Anthony for Game Time 7 p.m. ET.
7 minutes ago
Don’t know if NBA.TV Canada will carry it or not
Are Amir and Andrea Living Next To One Another or At Least Close?
AndreaBargnani Andrea Bargnani
@
@IamAmirJohnson i see you neighbor
30 minutes ago
If so that is a good way to build team leadership.
welcome to the next level.... only thing better if Andrea lived next door to MAS
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
MAS11
is reportedly helping Andrea get his Canadian citizenship
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 8, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
@youngonez tweeted Chandler to NYK – 58 million 4 years
CP to Lakers
and Kim Kardasian to Miami
wtf …. What was the point to this new CBA. Oh yeah … So the small market teams won’t feel as bad – financially – while they’re getting jammed in the a$$
.
Ken Berger on Twitter
KBergCBS Ken Berger
“All 25 teams, if well managed, will have the opportunity to watch five teams take turns winning championships.”
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I Believe It Is Six
Detroit
Miami
Dallas
Boston
San Antonio
Lakers
The only team without a legitimate super star in that group I’d say is Detroit
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
What Does That Have To Do With Berger's Ridiculous Comment?
The top four teams in the league right now are
Thunder
Bulls
Knicks- Assuming Chandler signs there
Heat
Those four have won only one NBA title in the last eleven years.
I would put the Lakers at #5 based on their current roster
what team, apart from those 5 teams, can you see winning a championship? You are taking his comment too seriously. He is making a point that the talent in the league is top-loaded, which it is
the Detroit comment – I’m saying you need a superstar to win, and all the superstars are flocking to a small group of teams.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
Talent In The League Has Always Been Top Loaded
What is the big deal.
IMO it is much to do about nothing.
NBA Titles By Team Franchise From League Inception
Celtics 17
Lakers 16
Bulls 6
Spurs 4
-——————
Total – 43
Rest of league – 19
So 4 NBA franchises have won 69.4% of all NBA titles
Berger’s statement is for the NBA fans who are ignorant of NBA history.
Historically there have rarely been five teams in any season that have had a legit chance to win the title.
The league is now more balanced then ever when it comes to a possible NBA title winner in 2011-12.
Dumb statement by Berger. He should know better.
You are joking aren't you?
Remember we just had a lock out? Remember owners defending their position by saying a new CBA will allow for a more competitive league? Judging by this past week, it looks like more of the same.
Berger’s statement was making exactly the point you were making, except you missed it.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 8, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
No I Am Not
My point and I just presented the facts is that the league will now be more competitive.
How many teams do you think could win the NBA title this season?
Three, four or maybe five?
Go back to the the just a few years and how many teams realistically ever had a chance to win a title in any one year, maybe one or two, three tops.
If you go back to the Jordan era and before there were never more than one or two teams in one year who ever had a realistic chance of winning the NBA title. Never.
So now having maybe four or five teams that could legitimate chance of winning the title is a big change from NBA history
Looking forward to training camp
I wanna see if bargs got in shape, if Johnson shed his body fat and if Alabi has a pulse. Hope we can get some pics and video of the first day. Also looking forward to see who else we sign to fill the roster.
Not sure I like this Chris Paul rumour unless he bolts after this season (which I doubt). Won’t LA be very thin up front with just a broken down Bynum unless there is a sign and trade going on with West which I am not sure can actually work unless the Lakers cut Metta World Peace and Walton retires. I think this is just LA media playing with the trade machine.
Chris Paul Trade a done deal
I like it in the long run if L.A. can attract good talent aroound him in the next couple of yrs or if Dwight Howard is their next move
Not so fast
.
Somebody is putting the brakes on this one.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 8, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
LOVE THIS!!!
Good for the NBA owners! They actually woke up and said “…wait a minute. The team that we all own is going to trade CP3 to the Lakers? Ummm, NO!” LOL
I just love this because I am a self confessed Laker hater and “Super Team” hater… There I said it!
This is stupid. The owners should not be able to weigh in on deals.
I don’t understand what legal right the league exercised by nixing the deal. New Orleans was not going to get a better deal than what was proposed. Scola, Odom, Dragic, Martin, and two 1st round picks for Chris Paul? You’re not going to get a better deal than that.
The owners just screwed over the Hornets.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
“I don’t understand what legal right the league exercised by nixing the deal…”
“The owners just screwed over the Hornets.”
Dude, the owners ARE the Hornets. The NBA and it’s owners collectively own the Hornets. They did it to save the league from another super team (and maybe to screw the Lakers a little LOL). Does it create a mess for the Hornets now? Absolutely, they are collateral damage here. But the more important issue is the league needs to get that ownership mess dealt with first. I would reccommend simply contracting them if I had a say…
No Different Than Chandler Trade To Raptors
In both cases the owner stopped the trade at the last minute.
In case you forgot the NBA owns the Hornets.
The NBA expressly stated that they would not interfere with basketball decisions for the Hornets. That’s the difference.
And according to all the sources, the league officed succumbed to pressure from the other 28 owners.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
According To Sources
Right back to the CBA negotiation unconfirmed he said horsesheet.
I say time for basketball.
I don’t understand what you just said
http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA/status/144967239194517505
http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA/status/144958194781925376
Just go to Wojnarowski’s twitter feed
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
WoJo Is One Of The Major Reasons For This
WoJo is so far “left” he never found an owner he didn’t hate.
Fact is that to be a successful writer today in the NBA media you have to either be a Socialist or Communist.
okay thank you for that tidbit of wisdom
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
This means we will all wear the same brand of socks, shoes, hats and jackets. Just like NBA intended us to do so...
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Sorry, I don't know what else to say here...
But when you make comments like this Buddah, it’s hard not to call you an idiot.
you do
know the difference between socialism/communism and what the players wanted right?
Its the owners that were asking to socialize their expenses. If you are a true libertarian or capitalist or republican, you should be very much against what the owners were asking for…..
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
This Tweet Is A Perfect Example of The NBA Media's
attitude toward owners
bq. chadfordinsider Chad Ford
Dear David Stern, Dan Gilbert and other petty, whining NBA owners. Go away. Signed, Everyone.
7 minutes ago
If the owner’s don’t kowtow to what the NBA media and players want then this is what you get from almost all of the NBA media.
for the NBA to make decisions on behalf the Hornets would be collusion. It is as simple as that.
How is this not collusion?
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
They Own The Hornets
The problem is that the NBA never should have taken control of the Hornets and just let them be purchased and either moved out of New Orleans or shut them down after they took over control. However, because of Hurricane Katrina and the demographics of New Orleans and the league Stern made the mistake of having the league take control of he Hornets because he was feeling sorry for the people of New Orleans.
This is what happens when a league owns a team or the government owns businesses. Bad news in both cases.
I’m still trying to figure out what legal right they exercised. I agree with you that this sort of trade hurts the league. But the CBA should have been set up in a way where this doesn’t happen, but within the new CBA rules, it still would have been legal.
The owners can’t just nix any deal the choose because they don’t like it. This was more than a fair haul for the Hornets.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I don’t think they can nix any deal they choose. They can nix this deal because they are the owners of that particular team. Not disputing the fair haul for the Hornets at all.
The "League", not the owners, has to give final approval on every trade...
Without Stern’s signature no deal can be official…
"the Truth"
Yes, but it was not the League, operating as the governance of the rule book, that nixed the trade, it was Stern, operating as representative of the Hornets’ ownership, that nixed the trade.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t think so. He would have to have some reason to do so (i.e. CBA violation). In this instance, he was acting as a proxy for the owner of the Hornets, just like MJ did when he canclled the Chandler deal in the late stages.
I don’t know what stipulates what the reason needs to be, all I know is that if the Emperor doesn’t sign, sorry the Commissioner doesn’t sign, the deal doesn’t happen…
"the Truth"
Sure, but I would have to believe that if the Comissioner had simply “gone rouge” and arbitrarily – with no rationale or “legal” logic for doing so – decided not to sign off on a trade, the teams involved (as well as the other owners who would be ticked at the Comish for overstepping his power boundries) would have a mechanism of recourse. The difference here is that it is not the Comissioner nixing the trade, it is the Owner of the Hornets nixing the deal.
Fair enough, I'm not disputing that...
I’m just adding that he has the authority to nix every trade that is proposed…
Yes, he needs reasons, and “basketball reasons” likely wouldn’t cut it…
I think it’s ridiculous that he has that sort of influence in the first place…
Where does the line get drawn? He doesn’t agree with the rebuilding process/vision Colangelo has so he nixes every trade which isn’t bringing at least one international player to Toronto because he feels the Raptors can be marketed as a World-Team? … that’s all I’m saying…
The system is bunk…
For many reasons…
"the Truth"
I always thought it was just the NBA that owned the Hornets, not the NBA and its owners. Do you have a source on this?
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
Gilbert one of the most hated owners sent an email to Silver saying that this was a horrible deal and the owners should stop this deal.
In the end it was the NBA who owns the Hornets that stopped the deal. I never read where there was a vote of owners to stop the deal.
The media is making up all kinds of stuff on this just like they did during the negotiations.
Interesting
that when the owner of the Bobcats stopped the trade of Chandler to the Raptors at the last minute no one outside of Charlotte or Canada seemed to give a sheet.
Now when the owner of the Hornets stops a trade at the last minute the whole NBA media goes nuts.
The NBA Owns The Hornets
What is the difference between this and the almost Chandler trade to the Raptors stopped at the last minute by the owner of the Bobcats?
None that I can see.
Deals are often called off at the last minute by owners of businesses. Whether there is cause for a lawsuit here I don’t know. Sometimes in situations like this there are valid reasons to sue because the deal was cancelled at the last moment.
I leave that up to the lawyers.
The NBA has not given any reason why they have cancelled the deal apart from “basketball reasons”
This is definitely not the same as the Chandler deal.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
The NBA Owns The Hornets
It is the same thing.
The deal was never official. Just because Wojo and other NBA media said it was a done deal doesn’t make it a done deal.
The owners or owner (NBA) stopped this deal just like the owner of the Bobcats stopped the Chandler deal.
Both were never a done deal because in both cases he owners/owner did not approve the deal.
so then tell me how it is not collusion?
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
there is a serious
conflict of interest going on.
The league should have never ‘owned’ a team in the first place. But, allowing an owner(s) to influence 2 teams, is even worse. NOH front office should have complete autonomy to make deals that they feel are in the best interest of their team. Dan Gilbert isn’t going to make a deal thats in the best interest of NOH, only of the Cavaliers.
Either allow the team to make their own decisions or drop the team all together.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
There’s a couple sides to this. Yes, there is obvious collusion involved if the other NBA owners nixed the deal. However, the only evidence of that is Gilbert’s letter, which may or may not have made any difference.
Last year, when the Hornets were bought out by the league, there was a mandate put on the Hornets not to take on any long term salary to aid in the sale of the team. This deal would see them take on a LOT of long term salary. As such, the deal could easily have been nixed under that original condition. Now, I’m not saying this is why the deal was nixed, but the league has an alibi here.
I think they will have a hard time
selling their ‘alibi’.
Ofcourse taking on Carl Landry’s salary last season sort of goes against that reasoning aswell (although a much smaller salary in comparison ofcourse. Funny enough Mark Cuban was pissed that trade went down)
I just think its a terrible standard to set. The commissioner can now decide what deals, within the rules of the CBA, are acceptable or not? That power ofcourse was always there but untouched and for good reason I think.
Free market capitalism – when the king decides its ok. (that ones for Budda)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
I just think its a terrible standard to set. The commissioner can now decide what deals, within the rules of the CBA, are acceptable or not? That power ofcourse was always there but untouched and for good reason I think.
But that’s not the standard they are setting. The issue lies only because the league owns the Hornets, and as such has not only official league veto power (which as you said, has never been used, except to enforce the rules of the CBA) but also executive ownership veto power, which they are using here. The muddling bit is that the ownership power comes from competing owners… As such, there is a serious conflict of interest here.
Anyway, yes, the league will have a heck of a time selling their alibi. That would never fly in public, no one will ever believe it, but it would probably be the bastion they hide behind if this was ever to go to court (unlikely).
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
+1
The owners can do it because they are collectively the owners of the Hornets. However, there is obviously an inherent problem with the owners owning the Hornets that needs to be resolved ASAP!
but there was
no collective vote/decision on it… so this wasn’t an ‘ownership decision’ (as in owners of the New Orleans Hornets) but rather a league decision.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
My understanding is the league owners were all gathered together yesterday (physically and virtually) for ratification of the deal. The resistance collectively of the owners (other than Jerry buss of course) was such that Stern was directed to act.
“It’s not true that the owners killed the deal,” NBA spokesman Mike Bass said. “The deal was never discussed at the Board of Governors meeting and the league office declined to make the trade for basketball reasons.”
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7333285/los-angeles-lakers-deal-acquire-chris-paul-off
so IF thats true (and right now its difficult to sift through the foot in mouth disease the league has) than the owners didn’t discuss the trade, and therefore an ‘ownership’ decision was not made. A league decision was. Had the owners ‘discussed it’ then that would, atleast technically, made it an ‘ownership’ decision…. ofcourse doing that brings in the entire conflict of interest issue of owners of team A making decisions for team B
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
The league can’t decide not to ratify a trade because it seems unfair – only owners can do that. Stern made the call, and whether he had the backing of the Board of Directors or not, he was not acting as an arbitrator of the rules they just enacted in the new CBA – he was acting on behalf of the owners, who according to the reports, bombarded him with complaints as soon as they heard the deal was being made.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
but that still doesn't address
if there was a ‘majority’ against the deal… or further what the ‘majorities’ interest in the deal was. (hence the conflict of interest issue).
For instance Dan Gilbert’s decision clearly had nothing to do with the New Orleans Hornets. What about GSW or LAC… two teams who were chasing Chris Paul? Is there not a serious problem with them being able to have a say in the Chris Paul trade?
To say that the league owns the Hornets and Stern runs the league so the decision to cancel the deal was therefore a team decision can only be seen as a ‘technicallity’
Either way there are two problems that arise with this event:
-‘league’ ownership of a team (which if they completely dissolve themselves of any decision making short of a budget, which they had been until now, isn’t necessarily a problem)
- cancelling a legitimate deal based on the league’s (or some owners) philosophy on player movement.
Either way its a serious problem. Stern really needs to back away from this one, recant his decision, and possible fine Dan Gilbert just for being Dan Gilbert.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that this is a hot mess and there are serious confilct of interest issues here. However, the fact that the league is releasing “basketball reasons” to the media to explain the decision does not change the reality that the owners got together as “owners of the hornets” and nixed the deal. Was it for their own self-interests as owners of another franchise? Absolutely! But under the current structure, where they own the Hornets, they can do this. So you’re bang on that this is a serious problem that needs to be resolved ASAP! My preferance would be to simply contract them…
“My preferance would be to simply contract them…”
haha as soon as I read about this that was my first thought to.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 9, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Sale of MLSE to Rogers, Bell is close
Telecommunications giants to join together on deal
By Lance Hornby ,Toronto Sun
First posted: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:52 PM EST
TORONTO – The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan is about to cash out its controlling stake of the Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment empire — selling to a pair of media giants.
Sources have told QMI Agency that a deal worth as much as $2 billion is close to being settled with telecommunications behemoths Bell Media and Rogers Communications, who have been rivals in the past for the much desired 79.5% shares of MLSE.
Bell and Rogers represent TSN and Sportsnet, the No. 1 and 2 sports broadcasting powers in Canada, but they will call a truce and split the shares with so many lucrative deals to be spun off their union.
full story on link above.
Done Deal Unless Gilbert Overturns It - LOL
stevesraptors Stephen Brotherston
Toronto Raptors Sold To Major Cable TV Consortium | HOOPSWORLD | Basketball News & NBA Rumors hoopsworld.com/toronto-raptor…
via @HOOPSWORLD
2 minutes ago
Pietrus to the Raptors
Ok, I guess Pietrus was the guy to be had. Not sure I would give up a 2nd round this year however…
still think
The Gallinari trde was a better scenario (if realistic of course)
Pietrus is a good short term fix – exactly what BC was looking for. Great move. It actually lets the Raps use their MLE for the rest of their signings too, so if they want a guy on a 1-year deal that wants a longer deal, they can just overpay him for the one year as incentive to keep flexibility.
You think Colangelo is finally considering advanced stats to some degree with these pickups?
Magloire: .591 eFG%, 22.9 TRB%, Net ORTG-DRTG 22, WS/48 .172
Pietrus: .360 3P%, WS/48 .055 last year, but .1 or higher each of the 3 before that.
These Are Also Veterans Who Have Played
numerous playoff games
Magloire – 46
PIetrus – 49
Can you use the MLE
if you are below the cap? I thought the CAP was 7 Mill? (not sure how much Maglore will earn)
Until a team uses their cap space, they aren’t necessarily under the cap. With all the cap hold the Raps have, including the cap hold for the MLE use, they are well over the cap.. All these holds could be renounced to generate that cap room instantly if they wanted to use it, but it appears they don’t (unless the TPE doesn’t get extended).
So long as the TPE is extended to today, they keep their cap holds, use the TPE to absorb Pietrus, sign Magloire using the veteran’s minimum exception (any team over the cap can sign minimum players), and use the MLE to fill out the other two spots on the roster.
Or, if the extension of TPE is not granted, they renounce all their cap holds, use their cap space to absorb Pietrus, sign Magloire to a minimum contract with their remaining cap space, then have minimum contract exceptions and the new “room” MLE (2.5M, 2 years) to fill out the rest of the roster.
Fits The Plan
He didn’t play well last season in his short stint in Phoenix.
However, he had a few good years in Orlando. Pretty solid defender and can stick the three ball.
Still only 29 yet a solid vet with lots of playoff experience
I like it
Two nice pickups so far by BC that fit the plan.
BC and Mark Cuban Thinking Alike
Here is the explanation straight from the keyboard of the Mavs’ owner on the first night he is free to speak again about the team’s roster:
If this were the old CBA rules, we probably would have kept everyone together. But the rules changed.
If we were able to sign everyone to two-year deals, that would have possibly changed things as well, but that wasn’t in the cards either.
What you are missing is that it’s not about the luxury tax. It’s about the ability to improve our team going forward.
The reality is that in the new system, cap room will have far more value than it had in the past. I realize that everyone is all freaked out about how and where free agents and future free agents are going, but it’s not just about getting one guy.
We are not saving cap room in hope of that one super special free agent being there. It’s about being in the position to improve every year and possibly add some significant, younger players next year and in future years.
complete article on link above
Will Ed Be Physically Up To It?
heisamirjohnson heisamirjohnson
Amir Johnson is coming into Raptors training camp more chiseled, looking bigger, more agile, and has been working on his game! #greatnews!
1 minute ago
Major Downside To Jonas Not Coming Unitl 2012-13
for him and Raptors fans.
He would have had a far better chance of winning ROY this season than next and of making the the Rookie – Sophmore all-star squad.
With Sullinger, Drummand, Davis, Henson et all being rookies next season it will very difficult for Jonas to make the Rookie – Sophmore all-star squad. He would have had a far better chance this season.
Major downside? Slight downside, perhaps. As for Raptors fans, I think we’re expecting to have two shots at that ROY and rook-soph game ;)
by dhackett1565 on Dec 9, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
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