Tip In: Raptors’ Late Rally Falls Short in Loss to Pacers
by Scott Campsall on Dec 29, 2011 8:01 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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PrintThe home opener may not have ended the way Raptors fans wished it would, but the outcome certainly wasn't all bad. The HQ takes a look at the most important things to take away from the Raptors loss to the Pacers last night.
Yes, the bounce is indeed back as the Toronto Raptors finally returned to the ACC last night to take on the Indiana Pacers in front of, what seemed to be, a packed house. Unfortunately for the fans in attendance, the hometown Raptors dropped the opener 90-85.
The Raptors showed more grit and toughness in last night’s match-up than they showed, perhaps, in the entirety of last season. This was particularly evident in the slugfest of a first half; a half in which neither the Dinos nor the Pacers were able to reach 40 points.
In the second half though, the effort was there defensively, but both team's offenses started to get their shots to fall.
The Pacers jumped out to a double digit lead partway through the fourth quarter, but it was the Raptors that got hot; rallying from 14 down at one point to bring the game within 2 points with just over a minute left to play.
In the end, their effort proved to be all for naught. The Pacers hit some big shots down the stretch, including a dagger of a 3 pointer by Danny Granger and an impressive fade away jumper by new comer David West in the dying seconds, and that was pretty much it.
Despite the loss, the 19,800 fans in attendance were treated to a very different brand of basketball than most have become accustomed to during the Jay Triano era in Toronto.
The Dinos proved that they have what it takes to hang with one of the better teams in the Eastern Conference in the Indiana Pacers, and did so with some much improved defensive intensity, and hard work on that end of the floor.
The effect of Raptors head coach Dwane Casey is already paying dividends. The Raps held their opponents to a measly 39.5% shooting, which is especially impressive when you consider the offensive weapons the Pacers posses in West, Granger, Paul George and Darren Collison.
Perhaps most impressive defensively was again, forward James Johnson. Johnson had a team high 5 steals to go along with his 2 blocks and 8 rebounds. His activity on the defensive end disrupted the Pacers offense on a number of occasions and was a big reason why the Pacers turned the ball over 16 times.
Johnson’s play in this one is already beginning to cause debate among Raptors fans over whether or not he should be starting, but more on that in a minute.
Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan were both integral parts of the Toronto comeback.
Bargnani got off to a very slow start, receiving two fouls early in the first quarter. Getting into foul trouble was a big factor that contributed to his struggles offensively in the first half; yet his defensive intensity was nice to see, especially how hard he hedged defending the screen and roll.
In the second half Bargnani’s shooting lifted the Raps offense. Bargs was able to make open shots when the team needed them most. When it was all said and done, he had another lackluster rebounding effort, grabbing just 4 boards in 32 minutes of play; but on a night like this, you can almost excuse his poor rebounding with the way he played defensively and the way he shot and passed the ball.
Likewise, DeRozan had a very up and down game. In the first half DD struggled from the floor and did not register a single point. The second half however, was a different story.
DD got out to a good start in the second portion and never looked back. His second half performance included 22 points, 16 of which were in the fourth quarter alone. Those 16 fourth quarter points also featured two 3-point makes on two attempts, both coming at crucial points late in the game.
Derozan’s shooting display in the fourth is an extremely encouraging sign for a team that desperately needs an efficient shooter in order to make their offense work. If double D can show some consistency from behind the arc, than Dwane Casey may be more inclined to start the defensive minded James Johnson in place of the supposed shooter Rasual Butler.
Starting J.J seems to be the move that makes most sense, given both his youth and his defensive prowess he should be able to grow with this young starting unit, and perhaps even expand that limited offensive game of his.
All in all, the Dinos put in a solid effort and fell just short against an Indiana Pacer team that some are picking to finish in one of the top 4 spots in the Eastern Conference. Raptors fans have to be pleased with the outcome—a competitive game, that ultimately ended in a loss and will not have a negative effect on the Raptors' lottery prospects going forward.
The Raps will now embark on a 3 game road trip starting Friday night in Dallas.
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A couple of thoughts....
Having attended last night a few things stood out to me:
1. The Big Cat is throwing his body around and beating up on opposing players. He picks he laid last night would have made any defender think twice. When you add this to James Johnson’s physical game you have a toughness element that has been missing since Antonio Davis. It is too bad neither of them have any offensive game to speak of.
2. Kudos to Bargnani down the stretch. Although he took a lot of J’s, he attacked the rim down the stretch.
3. DeMar needs to attach the rim more often and in fact so does the rest of the team. The reason the Raps lost this game is they settled far to often, in particular in the third quarter. The Pacers attacked the rim and created open shots from penetration. The Raps need more of that.
4. What is very clear is that in order for the Raps to take the next step they need a post presence. Hopefully they can get that from JV next season. To become a more complete team they need someone who can create on the blocks – like Hibbert did last night.
All in all good game, great crowd, nice home opener.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 29, 2011 8:41 AM EST reply actions
Yes Sir
Will be watching just not writing much going forward. Real job and soon to be fatherhood doesn’t allow for much spare time (or so I hear)!!
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Dec 29, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
Watching “Game in an Hour” here and noting the same things as Howland. Magloire makes a huge difference on those “unquantifiable” plays that win games. Setting screens, banging cutters, just being a big body down low.
Also, huge difference in terms of attacking the rim. Without a legit scoring presence down low to rack up easy fouls, a lot of this now falls on the team’s wings and they’re just not of that type.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Icant believe they dio not use Bargs more on that
It must be part of those sets they have yet to imlement
look...you need inside basketball.
posters on this sight may bad talk Gray all they want, but without him this year is really sunk.
They need an inside game.
Get Gray as your off the bench guy for 15 to 30 minutes and then get another BIG that can start, shoot an outside shot and play defense!
WE need to begin to control the inside!!!!
I saw no inside game.
I saw no rebounding, especially from a not to mention his name here forward/center with 30 plus minutes of play.
I saw stupid, stupid repeated outside shots over and over again…instead of pounding the ball inside and forcing fouls.
I saw one on one basketball instead of team ball.
We better hope grays gets back and we find a real 30 plus minute center that can put fear into the opposition going nside at will.
I agree but I don’t think Gray is going to have that big of an impact. For one, I think Casey likes the defensive rotation of Amir Johnson and Jamal Magloire, and is pretty happy with the Bargs/Ed Davis combo. So not sure the minutes are there for him to have an impact.
Second, having watched Gray since PITT, he’s not a huge back to the basket threat. Yes, to a certain degree, but he relies on put-backs and up-and-unders more than raw athleticism. So I just don’t see him coming in and being THAT big of a difference maker.
But I do agree, the team needs to get more going to the rim. The foul shot numbers so far are rough.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
You think Aaron Gray is going to make the difference for the Raptors this year? Hey, I think he was a good signing, but the guy is not going to win very many games, if any, for the Raptors. Besides, what do you mean “sunk”. You do realize no matter what they do they are most likely a bottom 5 team, which is fine because the only thing they really need is a top 5 pick in 2012.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Bargnani
Deserves a lot of credit for how he played on both ends of the floor. Though the rebounding was embaressing, the aggression and work ethic was comendable. It certainly seems like there has been a fire lit under him, perhaps he is afraid to get traded – since he genuinely loves being here, and I don’t think he wants his NBA career to be spent anywhere else.
At times he looked like he was getting under a lot of Pacers’ skins, especially West’s and Hansborough who he locked up with a lot and exchanged elbows and forearms with. Loved him charging the rim, and how about taking that charge? Tonight’s offensive effort really shows what a nightmare he can be when a defender has no idea whether he is going to pull up or drive, all he needs to do is drive to the hoop a couple of times each game and the D wil respect it enough for him to get off 5-6 of those short jumpers which he seems incapable of missing.
The best thing about this game is that the Pacers went away from the ACC very tired and a little bruised and not feeling like studs for all the open shots and highlight reel dunks they made. We need every team to feel like that this year, so there is some respect and intimidation going into the future once we have a more offensively competitive and talented crew of guys out there.
Formerly known as timboslice85
by Rebrand_the_Raps on Dec 29, 2011 9:28 AM EST reply actions
Is it possible that Triano was that bad at both ends? That he misused Bargs on O at the 5 and on D in general? It’s two games, but those questions keep playing in my head so far this young season. Team just looks so different, and it’s THE SAME group pretty much.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
And if you look at the box score
I was stunned to see that Bargs was racking up the assists…If you look at assists alone, Bargs was getting the guys involved more than bayless who we want running the show. Haha if this keeps up maybe we can keep him around to play the hedo point forward role (sarcasim dont grill me)
by yellowalman on Dec 29, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Those assists are a very wlecome sign. There were times last night when Bargnani had someone tight on him, playing really tough D and I was certain he was just going to either jack up a bad shot or put it on the floor and commit a charge. To my surprise, he found an open man and made some points for the team.
Formerly known as timboslice85
by Rebrand_the_Raps on Dec 29, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
this is exactly what I was thinking-coaching in basketball is so different than any other sport in respect to how much of an impact it has on the regular course of the game.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 29, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think the worst kept secret in Raptorland is that Jay Triano is not an NBA calibre head coach. Now, I want to state that I am grateful for what Triano did and have a lot of respect for his class and willingness to take the lumps on his personal win-loss record with a team in constant flux, but I think it is very fair to say that Dwayne Casey has been around and been involved in better basketball at both the amatuer and professional level. Hopefully the EARLY improvement we have seen in players we thought we knew all about will continue and hopefully Casey and his system is genuinely effective and something we can believe in going forwards.
Formerly known as timboslice85
by Rebrand_the_Raps on Dec 29, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say that...
Triano is not much of a systems coach. He doesn’t really have a philosophy to imprint on players. He is a good player management coach as seen from his Team Canada days, but I guess we should also caution that a lot of that had to do with Steve Nash.
But hey, there are a lot of coaches that don’t do well with a particular team and they somehow manage to click and make a different team much better than they should be.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 29, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I sort of agree
I don’t think he gets that gig helping the American team if he can’t coach and get praised for the work that was done if Triano is not a good coach.
However, the Raptors job was probably the worst situation for him. He inherited a roster that was clearly in decline. He had a general manager who seemed to meddle with personnel decisions and certainly the roster. He had little stability in terms of other coaches (it makes me wonder who picked them and I’m thinking BC played a major role), and finally, he was a known entity to the team and I think the team partially tuned him out from day 1 because of that.
Even so, the fact that there was no progress made on defense and there were some curious lineups used and Jay had to pay for that.
It took Sam Mitchel three years to mature into being a head coach. That first year was pretty rough. In the end, though, I think he’s a pretty good coach (especially if he can get someone else to run the offense). If Triano has learned anything from the last three years, he could be good in his next gig, if he gets another chance.
That’s the biggest indictment of Triano’s coaching so far. This is basically the same damn team! Can we agree that Triano was horribly overrated and in over his head as an NBA coach?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I’m starting to think that. It’s two games but wow, it’s just a different team in terms of HOW they’re playing. And now hearing stuff come out from New Jersey and PJ about Triano’s reluctance to play Bargs in certain ways…ugh. I’m a staunch believer that coaching doesn’t have a huge impact in the NBA, but I’m happy to eat my words if the team continues to play like this under Casey.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
When a respected coach like PJ is throwing you under the bus…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
Triano used what he had though I would have liked to have seen more of Joey.
Three things
1. J. Johnson is in better shape. He was never in real good shape last season.
2. Amir is healthy and heavier. There have been a number of plays where you can see the benefit from the added muscle. Evidently his strength has reached the pain threshold of his opponents. He is getting a lot more uncontested rebounds on defense, probably because no one wants the pain on a low chance rebound. In any case even though he had those two fumbles his defense appears to be better. He is at least as quick as before he got hurt.
3. Bargnani has been trying really hard on defense and the results have shown
I think those could be three of positives that we are seeing on the defensive end and those changes change the the type of game we are watching from last season. So this season’s team looks different compared to last season’s team.
embarrasing>>>
What about Bargs having more assists then Bayless!!!!!
Bargnani has played pretty well, so far, and has been more active on defense, but he still seems to have a low defensive IQ, and I don’t see that changing in the course of a season. No matter how hard he works on defense, he’s still not going to be very good because he simply doesn’t seem to understand the basics of it.
I think far too many people are mistaking increased activity with good defense.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Activity != good defense
Is perfectly true and applies to Bargnani, but a Bargnani that is at least trying on defense and thereby increasing his effectiveness (even if from being abysmal to merely bad) is far more trade-able than last year’s model.
If activity =good defense, then Reggie Evans would have been Defensive Player of the Year.
I do agree that his defense has improved (although it’s still not very good) and hope that we won’t be having discussions about his trade value for much longer.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
I think we are in agreement
I was using the programmer style of not equal “!=” because I was too lazy to look up the code for the symbol.
Johnson starting
Agree that if the choice is simply whether he or Butler is the better player, JJ wins, warts and all. But down the road JJ has the potential to be a solid role player on a good team. Maybe Casey is thinking long term to the day when the Raps have a genuine starting-caliber 3 and wants JJ trained for his role on that team, not this one.
And while I’m at it, Bayless shouldn’t be kept after this year if his 1st 2 games are what he offers this team. No court vision and he’s a chucker. I can’t imagine his teammates love playing with him when he’s hoisting up 3’s 5 seconds into the set.
Thinking along those lines too…Johnson might be undergoing a “grooming” of sorts for a 6th man type role. And he might be better suited in that role, who knows. But Butler ain’t getting it done as a starter and frankly, still not sure why the team grabbed him, other than as a “plan B” if Pietrus didn’t work out. Lots of other guys, including D-Leaguers, that I’d prefer.
And +1 on Bayless.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
+1 about both JJ and Bayless… I think JJ would make a great bench player with his energy and defence when the raps get a legit SF… whether he starts or not this year doesn’t really matter to me, this year is all about developing the young players, so once JJ gets his minutes, I’m happy
Bayless is quite the enigma… he’ll make 2 or 3 bad plays in a row but come back with a great play during the next possession… in my mind, he’s definitely not the starting pg of the future, based on the first 2 games… however, he does drive into the lane, which is a rare quality on this team… barbosa is almost guaranteed to not be here next year so I wouldn’t mind bringing back bayless on a short term deal to fill barbosa’s role of instant offence off the bench… if he’s not signed back though, I wouldn’t shed a tear
Went to this one last night....this might be long :S
1st and far most the crowd on hand was beautiful and the energy is amazing. The Raptors handed out t-shirts and towels made for an amazing sight come the 4th quarter after the second DD 3 pointer and the Bargs made field goal +1 free throw play. Also kinda made it a little bit sad to see the crowd suddenly die when the pacers hit the dagger just after the time out.
Im not gonna complain too much about the refs (even though they were all over the place in terms of their calls) because the Raps were kinda sloppy as hell as well( pacers with 16 turnovers not great either). For the turnovers I kind of just throw my hands up and say okay that was bad, but the thing that makes me cringe was all the offensive fouls. The Raptors had 7 of them in the game with 4!! in the first quarter alone.
DD is looking like mr. fourth quarter these first two games. While I admit it was awesome to see, its also kind of concerning. He has been invisible for both those games during the 1st 36 minutes. I think he needs to try and be more aggressive throughout the game, especially since our team was struggling to put points on the board. It feels like everyone struggled offensively with the exception DD (4th quarter only), Bargs, Bayless and Barbosa at least put some points on the board. Made 2 of our first 7 free throw attempts (although Magloire had 2 in there i dont expect him to make) our shooters were kinda off.
I liked the effort on the boards even though we were out rebounded (only by 3). It seemed like we were getting good position on the glass, but we had problems securing the ball. On multiple occasions a Raptor would getting the rebound but lose it before he could bring it down. Finally JJ was all over the place last night. He might not have much of an offensive game but if Casey is all about defence like he claims, just start the guy.
All in all, great game for the fans. Time for us to go on the road…..
DeMar
Is going to be scrutinized a lot this year, by me especially because he’s gotta prove something to me considering the draft that’s coming up and what we MUST get from the SG position since the SF positions seems devoid of offense most nights.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Dec 29, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Saw from practice today that apparently Casey talked to DeMar this morning about playing 48 minutes and getting going early in games.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Thats great to hear
He really can be a game changer. The way he took over last night was something to be impressed with. I hope he can keep it up and continue to grow.
he’s got the potential, that’s for sure
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 29, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
I fully believe he does, if he continues to put the work in like he has I feel he could be a pretty good player.
by yellowalman on Dec 29, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
The two thing DeRozan really needs to improve on is defense and the ability to create his own shot. As we saw against Indiana, he forces the issue too much and simply isn’t a good enough ball handler or shot creator, at this point, to be able to do that. Hopefully that will come.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
I am very happy with what I have seen so far. Obvioulsy JJ is playing well enough to be starting, and he probably will be soon.
With the way DeRozan has been sleeping through the start of games. What about playing him as the 6th man for now. Why not start Barbosa for a bit, and see if we can pump up his trade value???
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 29, 2011 11:05 AM EST reply actions
I’d be fine with that. For me this year is about trying things, getting minutes for players and seeing what works.
I can’t see Casey moving DeMar to the bench unfortunately, but if he’s open to it…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
totally off topic here but
mark my words but russell westbrook will be traded before the season is over..there was talk last year that westbrook and durant dont get along to well..that westbrook takes way too many shots and thinks hes better than durant etc. well last night they got into a heated argument on the bench that took some players to separate them. if this keeps up (and im pretty sure it will) westbrook is as good as gone.
Not that we have as much to offer as some teams, cough … Dwight Howard, but would it not be great to net Westbrook…
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Good article on this today by Tom Ziller:
Love to see him in a Raps’ uniform but what would it cost? Davis, DeRozan and a first pick? Can’t see OKC not asking for the farm.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been a fan of Westbrook since UCLA, but my big issue with him, and one reason the Thunder may trade him, is because he’s simply not a pure PG. That hurt the Thunder in the playoffs.
Although I wouldn’t dislike Westbrook in a Raptor uniform, with the roster the Raptors have, they need a PG who can make his teammates better, and I’m not sure Westbrook is that guy.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
it’s just an argument. any team I’ve ever been on has had stuff like that happen and we were fine
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 29, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
maybe he goes to boston for rondo
rondo was rumored to be traded as soon as free agency hit (to new orleans for paul) but never happened…wouldnt surprise me if ainge makes a play for westbrook for rondo
With that Celtics team as it is now
I can’t see them wanting Westbrook running the point. He takes 17 shots a game, chucker material for sure. Sure he had 8 assists last year, but he turns the ball over way too much (4 a game last year). Through the first 3 games this year he has already turned the ball over 18 times!!! I think of him as super Bayless (just look at Bayless in April last year).
by yellowalman on Dec 29, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
good point but
maybe a vet team like the celtics can turn westbrook into a better point guard than what he is now..how good would rondo be if he wasnt on a team like the celtics that can straighten him out? its not like westbrook really has any vets on okc to teach him any better considering the fact most of the team is very young.
why does everyone always want durant and westbrook split up? I think he’s a top-5 pg in the league, if not top-3. not too sure how much room for extra improvement there is.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 29, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
No one is saying that Westbrook isn’t a great PG. The argument is more that since they have Durant as their star a PG who looks more to distribute the ball instead of chucking up shots like Westbrook tends to do would fit the team much better
Yeah, one of these “addition by subtraction” situation perhaps. Ironically a Jose would be a great fit beside Durant.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough. they’re still in a position where they can take a developing guy who distributes unlike teams such as dallas, etc.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 29, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure how Barney’s 4 rebounds got no notice especially in light of the fact Corey Joseph got 2 rebounds, in all of 4 minutes. I dont care if Barney is way better defensively, he failed to even crack 5 rebounds playing over 30 minutes. How does this go unnoticed?
Somewhat agree
I didn’t watch the game yet, but that does stand out a bit among an otherwise decent stat line for Bargnani. I’d set the bar at 8 a game for him and 4 is only halfway there.
On the flip-side, I love Amir’s 5 offensive rebounds.
I find it concerning
that Bargnani has ended up with 6 and 4 rebounds respectively YET has made a noticeable improvement trying to rebound. There are a few times he didn’t give it a 2nd effort when the ball got knocked away…. but in general he has definetely been trying harder to go after the ball.
Which leads me to believe one of two things:
1) its been just bad chance that the balls have bounced the wrong way, or been knocked away, and 4 or 5 weeks from now he’ll be at 8 (or so) a game
2) he doesn’t have the reaction time, toughness or athleticism to match up with other players on the boards.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm happy with the effort
But
1) I do think that it wasn’t lack of effort that lead to only 4 rebounds. He certainly looked like he was trying. So maybe he was unlucky in that the rebounds went in a different direction, but I also think he lacks the general instincts that puts him in the right location.
2) I think Bargs is certainly quick enough and athletic enough to get rebounds. I’m not sure he’s not tough enough but I wouldn’t argue against that statement. To me, he just really has no idea where the ball will go when it bounces off the rim. Amir is different. He can anticipate where the ball will go and he goes to that spot. Andrea has to wait to see what happens before moving and it’s too late at that point.
I’ll forgive a 4 rebound effort if he’s contributing by taking charges, hedging hard, rotating well, and at least trying to rebound.
I’m hoping for a “non-preview” or “non-recap” day to talk about this actually. To me, Bargs’ effort has been there on the boards pretty much non-stop but he just hasn’t added to his numbers much for a variety of reasons, some mentioned above.
But I’m not really concerned right now.
The team isn’t getting killed on the glass and others have really stepped up. (James Johnson, Amir, etc.)
More important to me is that he’s mixing it up in there, challenging shots at the rim, and actually rotating. I never expect him to be a double-double machine, so if he’s doing the other things, and taking good shots on O, I’m happy.
Actually, I’m happy as hell after the last few seasons.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Wow great stat
Repeat it a few more times would ya? Maybe we can trade Bargs for Joseph. Bargs has come in with a new coach and improved considerably, many people that are choosing to ignore this improvement are never going to like anything he does. The scary thought is if Barg’s could have been playing better for years and Triano was partially to blame for his lack of development. I remember Dwayne saying when he was first hired that he could teach techniques to help players improve their skills, hopefully that is what he is doing and we will actually see our team improve internally as well as through GM moves.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 30, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think everyone has remarked on the improvement, but going from really bad to not good is still not acceptable. When his defense and rebounding become acceptable, then I will like what he does.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Blaming Triano for Barney sucking is a joke. He is a freaking professional basketball player who is getting paid big money to play basketball. Triano shouldn’t have to strap one on and ride him to get him to do basic basketball fundamentals like Boxing out or Rebounding. This is just another excuse for a player who will never truly be an all-star caliber player. At best maybe we can hope he can come off the bench and change things up for the team but all this talk of the “improved” is premature. Lets wait until the end of the season before we praise him.
One reason I get so frustrated with Bargnani defenders is that there seems to be no limit to the excuses made for him. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a player that has been given so many. And I’m not quite sure why. Just about every other NBA player would kill for the opportunities that Bargnani has been given since he was drafted. FIrst his head coach was too hard on him, then a new one was too easy on him. It’s as if he’s a child who needs a specific form of parenting to flourish.
The problem is that he’s not a child.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
I think it’s because he wasn’t noticably backpedalling whenshots went up, or just standing there watching as much … he still does those things, it’s obviously his instinct, but now when he crashes in every once in a while or is in the mix but has the ball taken from his hands, or tips it, but it goes to the other team, at least it’s not a glaring thing like last year. I have to say it still seems he’s no ball hound, but trying.
what the
im surprised bargnani’s been getting some compliments here. hardly any critism, of course the rebounds and all, but ppl are sticking up for him, a bit. havent had the chance to watch the games and only been checking out highlights and the boxscore but man am i surprised. now i really cant wait to actually watch this team play. no but seriously, i hope bargs keeps on racking the compliments cause i still want him traded. lol but good for him
I think this is an interesting comment tea time. I know a lot of folks on the site thought the Bargnani hate was too much, but it was NEVER about hate to me, and may others. He just wasn’t playing the way a number of us thought he was capable of playing. Now though, he’s finally showing some signs under Casey, so we’ll see if this continues.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll give Bargs that he’s “showing signs”. But by no means has he turned a corner. The rebounding remains historically pathetic for a player of his size. And he’s still fond of standing flat footed while players are contesting shots and going after loose balls.
That being said, I’d love to revisit Bargs’ numbers in a month or two and see how his Wins Produced / Win Share (or any other advanced metrics) stacks up to previous seasons, where he was the least productive player in the entire NBA.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
your post is semantically wrong
unless you want a player traded irrespectively of how he performs
Reason for Rasual Butler starting is strictly
to stretch the defence and create space for us to operate in the lane. He may not hit many of his attempts but he forces the opposition out to guard him when he collects the ball in 3pt territory. That then creates better spacing for drives etc. I’d keep JJ coming off the bench because ultimately that will be his role once we acquire a SF who can score.
Speaking of SFs I completely agree that Harrison Barnes is the perfect fit for the Raptors. Is he going to be a mega superstar like Lebron or Durant? Nope. Can he fill the SF role by playing excellent basketball on both ends of the floor with all star potential? YES. I’m watching another NC game right now and his smarts and decision making on the floor is wayyyyyy above average. He’s my pick if Drummond and Davis are off the board.
I’ve had a man-crush on barnes since MM last year. I try and catch all that I can highlight wise of him.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 29, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Reason for Rasual Butler starting is strictly to stretch the defence and create space for us to operate in the lane. He may not hit many of his attempts but he forces the opposition out to guard him when he collects the ball in 3pt territory.
OR teams begin to recognize that Butler has been in decline for years and give him little respect from behind the arc. Then you’d see player collapsed in the middle clogging up the lanes.
Butler has no business getting playing time… let alone being allowed to start at the NBA level. James Johnson and Forbes can easily soak up the minutes at the 3.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
That's right. Teams will eventually recognise that he's not hitting those 3s and stop going out
there to guard him. Once the scouting reports start to circulate we’ll see his floor stretching ability reduced. At that point I think Klieza or Forbes should start with JJ coming off the bench to inject his energy and shut some guys down on D. I like JJ off the bench tho even tho he’s clearly the best SF we have right now.
I am not defending Butler by any stretch but much like the Raptors so called “Defensive Improvement” I am willing to give it some time before I start betting money on anything here. Butler may end up being a complete waste of time but 2 games is way too early to write him off as any sort of contributor. I give him 3 or 4 more games before I say bench him. Remember, it is technically only half way through a normal preseason right now so lets wait and see.
Reading Through This Thread
I am reading a lot of positive comments about what people have seen so far in the 2011-12 Raptors. Not seeing as many negative comments like I have seen in the past.
I think if the Raptors keep up the effort for the season this group of guys will start to be liked by fans. Once they start scoring they will become even more entertaining.
The Raptors need to assemble a youthful core that will challenge the likes of the Utah Jazz in a few years. Yes, the Jazz:
Enes Kanter (Jonas Valaciunas)
Derrick Favors (Ed Davis)
Paul Millsap (Amir Johnson)
Gordon Hayward (Harrison Barnes?)
CJ Miles (DeMar DeRozan)
Devin Harris (Jerryd Bayless)
Al Jefferson (Andrea Bargnani)… oddly enough, both teams should probably trade or amnesty those guys…
Who likes the Raptors’ roster (and potential roster) a helluva lot more?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
i certainly do. I'd take Favours over Davis tho.& we'll need to replace Bayless with
a starting calibre PG. I think George Hill will look good next to Demar in the back court.
I think I’d go with Davis over Favors, so agree to disagree. But yeah – the Raptors definitely need to address the starting PG position for the long term. Because Bayless is NOT that guy.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
i think i would take the raps roster over the jazz
gonna probably need another small foward and yep a young point guard to groom..looking at the draft so far i think the raps could get a pretty good pg even in the second round (makes it a good thing the pietrus deal didnt go down cause i think it was for our 2nd round pick) so where does it leaves us with the small foward position? is barnes right now heads over heals better than any other small fowards in college so far? i havent seen any college ball yet so i have no idea im sure you guys have a better grasp right now on that.
I Am Jazzed Up About The Raptors Prospects
They could wind up with the two best rookies in the NBA in 2012-13 added to this core
LIVE STREAM
Yo, i’m so exited with this games, anyone going to see the games tonight ? well i know this site usually got nice streams www.mynbatv.com i will watch here Philadelphia VS Utah
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