RaptorsHQ Rapid Recap - Boston Celtics 81 - Toronto Raptors 73
by Adam Francis on Dec 21, 2011 10:29 PM EST
in Raptors Rapid Recap - 2010/11
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-Are we about to watch a bizarro-version of the Toronto Raptors in 2011-12? It may seem that way as in their second, and final preseason match, the Dinos held an opponent to under 40 per cent shooting from the field, yet still lost. TO lost in Boston in the second game of the preseason "home-and-home" series, 81 to 73, and while their D was passable, their offence...not so much.
-Let's start with the team offense then shall we? Toronto hit only 24 of the 74 shots they attempted, good for 32 per cent on the night. It's pretty hard to win games when you shoot at that level and if you're hitting only one of your 17 shots from downtown, that certainly makes things worse. The Raps fired blanks all night and despite a mediocre showing from Boston, who was without Paul Pierce again, couldn't get the W.
-Individually Toronto had few bright spots either. From a scoring perspective, Andrea Bargnani, DeMar DeRozan and Jerryd Bayless, who started, pumped in a combined 48 of the team's points. However they were 15 of 46 from the field and considering they logged nearly 100 minutes together, you can see why the club struggled to put the ball in the basket. Bargs also regressed to last year (or should we say "every year previous to this one") status grabbing only four rebounds and lacking the intensity level he displayed in Toronto's last match against the C's. However he was hardly alone in terms of blame as DeMar DeRozan was minus 11 on the night, and Bayless had only three assists despite getting the start and a ton of minutes.
-Boston's superior talent shone through as this one went on the club was able to give all 16 dressed members some run in the end. Rajon Rondo led the way scoring-wise with 17 and others like Brandon Bass and E'Twaun Moore hit double figures.
-That concludes a brisk preseason now for the Raptors and they head back to Toronto with their work cut out for them. The team showed a few positives on D in game one of this two-parter, but there was little of that tonight and the offense in both matches was fairly putrid. Even the fact that the Raps held the C's to under 40% shooting tonight is a little overblown since most of that came against a young and error-prone Boston second and third unit. However the D was at least heading in the right direction one could argue and considering that the Dinos as a whole won various other statistical categories like rebounding and turnovers, it's this horrific offensive execution that needs markedly improve if the club wants to get a win on Boxing Day evening in Cleveland to kick off the season.
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Shats weren't falling
To quote an old friend.
First thing I did after watching the game was find the boxscore for Barg’s rebounding, cause I didn’t see many. But still like what I am seeing and will give Casey time.
Oddly, we outrebounded them 48-38.
Shats weren’t falling.
Concerns after two meaningless games-
Neither Bayless or Calderon look good running the team. Where has Jose’s shot gone? Bayless looks out of control.
DeRozan, if this is his year to shine, I haven’t seen any indication.
Looks like Amir misses Sonny.
Wait, what?
You mean Andrea Bargnani is still the same inefficient offensive player who wouldn’t be able to average double digit boards against elementary school kids? Let’s continue to keep the one player capable of a double-double nailed to the bench, so Bargs can get his 30-40 minutes per game at his “natural position”. Awesome, awesome stuff. Can’t wait to watch this continue into the regular season!
Tip of the cap to you Colangelo, Casey, etc.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 21, 2011 11:02 PM EST reply actions
I should also point out...
The @raptors Twitter feed was nothing but Bargnani, Bargnani, Bargnani. It’s just insane how this guy gets shoved down fans’ throats despite what can only generously be described as mediocre play.
Somebody hit fast forward on this season, please…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 21, 2011 11:08 PM EST reply actions
So do me a favour
and take the year off
For two meaningless games your full of freaken negativity.
We know, gonna be a rough season. Christ after two meaningless games you’re written off the season
Resign – Bring back Howland and Franchise( or better yet = fire this bum guys.
the only thing more annoying than bargnani
Is people constantly whining about him when it’s been a forgone conclusion for over a year that he’s a tier 3 specialist forced into a tier 1 role.
by axl t on Dec 22, 2011 8:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
- infinity
Hey guys if you want to be told how wonderful everything is and how great a player Andrea Bargnani is, go to Raptors.com or Doug Smith’s blog. If you want to be challanged to think critically like, I don’t know, an adult human being, please stick around.
I don’t think the point was that Barney is good just that at some point there isn’t much of the dead horse that you can beat left. Not saying I agree with their position but I believe that is the position they have put forward.
Exactly - Bargs is not good
6th man at best, impossible to hide his deficiencies, no motor, etc, etc
What more is there to be said? Will turning this place into Whinershq change anything? Seriously, it’s one thing to have someone trolling the comments, but when it’s a site moderator – you’re going to limit your active commentors to a limited point of view.
speaking our minds may not change anything, but neither will keeping our mouths shut.
People seem to forget its their choice what the do and do not read.
And I have never seen the moderators around here limit peoples points of view. D-stance has as much right as the next guy to speak his mind.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 22, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
You kidding?
D-stance hardly says anything outside of sarcastic, personally insulting comments about Bargnani. As you can see that routinely derails the conversation into another Bargs debate or pile on.
He’s the least moderate moderator on any blog I read.
Why not talk about basketball?
Is Bargnani not a basketball player?
If you don’t like it don’t read it.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 22, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Agree 100%
Didn’t read this comment section at all last year after being regular poster for a number of years. New season seemed like a good time to wade back in, but yeah, if Bargnani bashing rules again, I will leave you to it.
-1
1) D-stanc, in my memory, simply points out the statistics or observations and analysis based on the stats. He does not engage in any personal insults. The stats and empirical data is insulting enough.
2) If you don’t want to engage in a discussion about Bargnani DON"T ENGAGE IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT BARGNANI. Just go on to the next comment.
If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the issue. That’s your right. The same as it is other’s right to discuss it.
Not personal at all
“wouldn’t be able to average double digit boards against elementary school kids”
-D-stance
I don’t care about the bashing, but if you honestly believe that is a statement of fact, and not an antagonistic use of hyperbole, then I just lost a great deal of respect for you, MAS. People can make criticisms all they like – that’s what drives conversation and debate, but let’s keep it reasonable.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Dude I was being sarcastic. However, grow up if this “antagonistic use of hyperbole” offends your sensibilities. As it obviously a tounge in cheek referance of something that IS FACT (that Bargnani is a terrible rebounder) it is absolutely in bounds and reasonable.
If this type of statement truly bothers you, I ’ve lost a lot of respect for you dhackett.
It doesn’t bug me – when did I say it did? But it does bug some people.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Silly me, the fact that you characterized it as “antagonistic” led me to believe you were antagonized… So you don’t find it antagonistic??
Antagonistic: Showing or feeling active opposition or hostility toward someone or something.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
SMH
My comment was obviously about your perception of the comment. Good for you that you can look up words in the dictionary. Gold star.
I don’t need to feel antagonized for it to be antagonistic, is my point. With my human ability to feel empathy, I inferred that someone might reasonably feel antagonized if they were in a certain mindset, and as such labeled the comment that way, even though I personally knew perfectly well it was tongue-in-cheek.
Do you suggest that the comment was not intended as showing active opposition toward Bargnani?
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
This is gettig stupid, so I’ll leave it at this. Again, that is your perception, that the coment was antaganoistic. I didn’t see it that way. Was it an embellishment? Maybe, but it was not meant to inflame or antagonize. It was not meant to show oposition, but highlight his indesputable rebounding ineptitude. If one felt antagonized or inflamed by this comment, that is their perception. Which was my point.
I think you are fixating on the hostility option in that definition – the comment was clearly antagonistic towards Bargnani. Even valid criticisms are antagonistic. Any criticism is an opposition to something that person does or has done, and as such falls under the definition.
Anyway, my point, as it ever was, is that while criticism can be valid, simply repeating the same criticism over and over again adds nothing to the conversation and simply comes across as purely antagonistic. And the Bargnani doesn’t rebound conversation is getting old. Especially since it is the same people having the conversation over and over again.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Disagree – Here is the first quote:
“and take the year off
For two meaningless games your full of freaken negativity”
Making a blanket statement that being cirtical is “negativity” is a deangerous sentiment. It prevents people from feeling comfortable expressing an opinion because they will be characterized as being “negative”. Also, as long as Bargnani is played ahead of much more productive and YOUNGER players, this will be a topic of discussion. So either debate if you disagree or ignore the comment all together, don’t complain about the topic.
Not true. You will see many “positive” posts on this board. Over the last couple of days I’ve made a few “positive” posts on my intrigue in James Johnson and his defensive abilities, no one attacked me. There have been many “positive” posts by others about changes in defense and culture with this team. No one was “attacked”.
However, if you are going to try and defend bad decision making, bad management and bad players, be prepared for a healthy debate.
In MAS’ defense, if he dislikes a player, he is unlikely to say anything positive about their play. You can’t insist everyone says nice things about a specific player – I do think there is a bit of dead horse beating syndrome around here, but to be honest, that horse is dead for a reason.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
do you find it funny
that you say that after you just ‘attacked’, what you call, a ‘negative’ poster (D-stance)?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 22, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe he’s just sick of the same crap every year, despite being told every year it will be different…and it never is.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
We were told this is going to be a rough year, and that it was about building a culture. A culture doesn’t change in two games. As much as some people may hate Bargs, if you are a fan cheer for the team. I’d like to think that anyone posting on this site (especially an admin) is a fan, but we hear fast forward the season. Maybe everyone should just fast forward the season and not post or come to this site.
it is about
building a new culture. And while I can’t speak for anyone else (but I’m sure alot of people will agree with me here), I just don’t think that culture will change until Bargnani’s role changes, simply because I don’t think he will change.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 22, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
+1
A true fan of the Toronto Raptors, that understand the game of basketball and what it takes to be competitive in the NBA, wants Bargnani off this team. Sorry, not all fans are mouth breathers and navel gazers that absorb without the PR that MLSE is selling fans without challanging.
This really has nothing to do with Bargnani, as I’ve said before if we can get Drummon he should be shipped out, or if Ed Davis develops into a star (which I think he can), but I also realize he has value in the NBA these days if put into the right situation.
I am not going to get into an argument about basketball knowledge, it just seems petty and immature, and I’d like to hoep that most people are beyond that.
My point is pretty simply several players before have been typed cast as losers, but when put into the right situation with the right teammates have flourished. Before we give away a 22 point per game scorer, on 10cents on the dollar, maybe we should see what he can do it in the right spot. If Ed Davis becomes a star or we get a chance to draft Anthony Davis or Drummon, than ship out Bargs, but I don’t understand why people don’t at least cheer for him.
It’s a game about a team and not individuals, in 4 or 5 years alot of these players will be changed but the team will still be there. So its not about the players but the team, and we should cheer for the players on our team. Bargnani has never pulled a VC or T-mac and yet he is a villain?
If you are a teacher and a student is a visual learning and you dictate notes the whole class, and the student fails, is it their fault? Same situation in coaching you give the players every chance to succeed but after that it is on the players. Have we given Bargnani a fair chance to be successful? Honestly ask yourselves that. A guy who has been called a PF and poor defender, have we surrounded him with the right players to succeed.
If this year is really about building and people are on board with that, than why are we already bitching and complaining? If you really are a raptor fan than cheer for you team and stop complaining.
Love your Blog
even with the arrogance. One of the better ones.
With all due respect what is the source of this “same crap”. All I’ve heard is “sticking to the plan”. Colangelo’s manifesto.
Thanks.
The “same crap” reference" was the fact that every year we hear about about how this year is going to be different for Bargnani, for various reasons. First he just needed time to adjust. Then he needed more playing time. Then he needed a coach who wouldn’t be so hard on him. Then he needed to be the first option. Then he needed….
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Out of curiosity, who have you heard this from? Fans certainly inferred most of those points you draw up there, but the only one I think I’ve heard from BC or any member of the Raps was that he needed time to adjust because he was in a new position in a new country.
In fact, what I’ve heard from BC this season is basically that Bargnani is what he is, and if he gives a good defensive effort, even with his shortcomings, he could be that third guy on your team – and is paid that way.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not just from fans but from the media and others. Mitchell was fired, in large part, because he was being too hard on Bargnani (from what I’ve read).
And effort is only part of Bargnani’s problem on defense. Even WITH the effort, he’s still a poor defender. One example that popped out last night was Bargnani literally turning his back to the ball on defense on more than one occasion. Who does that, especially at that level of basketball? He just seems to have a low basketball IQ, at least on the defensive end.
And I don’t think you can afford to pay a bench guy $10 million a season with the new CBA. Especially one that really only does one thing well.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
+1
Dhackett, if you can sit with a straight face and suggest that BC and the organization haven’t bent over backwards to try and force feed Bargnani into being successful, I don’t know what to say to you man.
Don’t understand that. Of course the organization has done everything it could to ensure the success of its players, and thereby its team. Do you expect otherwise?
The discussion had to do with promises made – along the lines of “it will be different this year” – which I haven’t heard from the organization. There are always implications that go with certain moves – and those lead to inferences made by fans about the message the team is sending, but those in no way constitute promises.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
First off, there is a distinct differance between the raptors “everything it could to ensure the success of its players” and the raptors making specific strategic decisions to benefit a particular player to the DETRIMENT of the team. The latter is the case with the Raptors and Bargnani.
On the line of “promisses” on how it would be different or the various excuses, I can list many. And not just from the media or inferances from fans. BC himself has made it a point to cite Mitchelle not playing him or the way he was being used, his medical issues (was it tonsalitis one year?), completely ignoring his defense/rebounding defficiencies by trying to suggest it was an issue with the “team” or Triano’s coaching, etc. etc.
How much do you think good bench players get?
Jason Terry and Haywood, Lamar Odom, Mo Williams on the clippers this year, If you want to compete you need someone on your bench that can play and exploit the other teams bench. Bargnani could definitely be that type of player. Jamal Crawford and Jason Terry have made a living off of that.
Basketball IQ has ALOT to do with coaching and consistency. The raptors have had how many coaches lately?
Terry, Haywood, Odom and Williams would all start on a good team. They come off the bench because of circumstances, not because of some weakness in their games (although you could argue that Terry’s height makes him not good starting material, but you could also argue that he’s grossly overpaid).
Bargnani should come off the bench because he can’t defend or rebound and simply is a good enough all around player to start on a good team.
As for Crawford, I’ve never liked him, thought he was incredibly overpaid, has never played on a contender and couldn’t get anywhere near his asking price (or his former salary) this offseason.
As for basketball IQ, I disagree to a point. Yes, coaches can certainly make a difference, but to not have picked up more in five years in the NBA (and more in Europe) is disgraceful and inexcusable.
I just don’t think I’ve ever encountered a player in NBA history who has been given so many excuses.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Yes – he is a weak defender. But he may be worth what he’s paid if used properly, with two better players beside him. For example, a franchise wing player and a game changing centre (aka the Raptors’ 2012 and 2011 draft picks, if all goes as planned). With effort, he has shown to be a poor defender – but there are many poor defenders in the league who can contribute to a team. The key is for him to put in that effort to avoid being a cripplingly bad defender.
That’s what Colangelo believes – he holds the value of a 3rd option and is paid as such.
Media and “others”? First of all – welcome to Toronto, the media is crap. Who are these others?
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t doubt he can contribute to a team. I do doubt that a poor defensive and rebounding big man can play a big part on a contender, though.
The thing that bothers me is that all this fuss over trying to make him useful isn’t worth the trouble. He’s simply not good enough to put up with it all.
And I’ve heard the crap from coaches and, I believe, Colangelo, as well. And the media people are reporting what they’re hearing from the team.
My question is, why do you put up with so much from Bargnani? What’s the point?
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Here's the problem
But he may be worth what he’s paid if used properly, with two better players beside him. For example, a franchise wing player and a game changing centre
Bargnani’s best attribute is his ability to shoot the ball (go ahead and argue about efficiency, but it’s moot because Bargnani doesn’t do much else on offense other than shoot). However, with a franchise wing player and a game-changing centre, he’s not really going to get the ball often enough to provide value even if his efficiency improves.
I missed this game
I couldn’t find what channel it was on. So I just watched the Heat vs. Orlando on NBA TV. Big Baby Davis looked great.
I love Colangelo’s huge signings of Aaron Gray, Jamal Magloire and Rasual Butler. Now I know what Heat fans must have felt like when Miami signed Wade, Lebron and Bosh. Hopefully people in the NBA won’t be bitter towards Toronto for creating its own “Big Three.”
I love them signings to
Puts us in great cap situation for next year and years to come.
Read the manifesto!!
Aaron Gray
He looks pretty horrendous on the court, and is clearly out of shape. Did the Raptors have a scouing report on this guy before signing him? He’s an offensive and defensive liability. Raptors could have signed Dalembert who is a proven centre in the league, they had the cap space to do it. Dont see any of the big men signings really helping this year soo looks like Andrea will be playing there again
Gray hasn't looked good.
I’ve seen him play in Chicago and NO and he played better than he is for the Raps.
In order to sing Dalembert they would have had to commit franchise years and money to a spot they only need a stop gap for until Jonas comes over. It just doesn’t make sense to sign someone who you have no choice but to play major minutes for 4 or 5 years when you think you have a better player a year away. This is actually about as smart as BC has been since the Raps got knocked out of the playoffs against the Nets all those many years ago.
I miss Reggie
Seriously, too soon to tell, but I think this roster is markedly worse swapping him for Gray and Magloire (not that I wanted to pay Reggie what he was worth in a rebuilding year mind you)
Dalembert
That would have been a terrible move. Horrible. Houston made a mistake. He is not a winner.
by defensive rap on Dec 22, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
And now they can’t get Hayes after he failed his physical with another team, having used their room on Dally.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Optimism can be a fleeting choice
.
The only thing worse than this game, was listening to those Boston commentators – I’m being generous using that word – describe this forgettable affair.
If I could paraphrase the whole night
- Derozan has no class, but KG is da bomb
- Bass is the cat’s meo
- Bargnani bites
- Moore lovin’ going on
.
It always funny
When Boston throws someone to the ground it’s tough, hard nosed, don’t-bring-that-weak-stuff, but when opposition does it, it’s that should have a flagrant, a dangerous play, ejection, lalala
Didn't like what DeRozan did to Bradley, it was classless.
I’m also not liking DeRozan’s demeanour on the court, he looks unhappy. Its funny, watching videos of DeRozan in the pick up games all summer he seemed to be having lots of fun but now watchng him play for the Raps he looks kinda disinterested.
Only 2 games tho; looking forward to the rest of the season.
We have had too much class
I think part of the culture change needs to be the end of the buddy buddying with the other teams, always hated that about this team, way too friendly before games especially.
I’d say classless is probably a little strong, but it was definitely dickish. I have no problem with it though; our team has a reputation of being very soft. Even small things like that (and not helping the guy up) will help.
The only thing I didn’t care for was that he did it to Bradley and not Rondo.
I only caught about half the game – what happened?
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
With about 3 minutes left in the game, Derozan was going on a reckless foray up the court and Avery Bradley stripped him, then turned and headed up court himself. Demar, clearly frustrated, fouled Bradley reaching in and knocked him to the ground. Then, instead of helping him up or just walking away, Demar stepped right over Bradley’s head.
It probably should have been a taunting technical in today’s NBA, but nothing was called.
Boo Hoo
You know what, I hope this is a sign of a change in culture in Raptorland. For too long the Raps are the ones getting stepped over, time they did the stepping over. I have no problems with this. The league has become too genteel with all the taunting calls to the point where it’s hurting the competitive nature of the sport. Everyone is too friendly and defensive effort been a casualty as a result. Good on DeRozan, now he just needs to back it up with his play!
You have to play Bargnani....
I’m not a Bargnani fan at all. Anyone who has read my posts over the past couple years, I’m sure would agree with that. But, you have to play him.
There are 2 or 3 players on this team that can draw a double-team. They are:
Bargnani (in most games)
Derozan (50% of the time)
Barbosa (occasionally, but only when he gets going).
That’s it. That’s the list. Every other player on this team can be played straight up.
The fact is that drawing double teams from the opposing team SHOULD make it easier to score, by creating open shots for others. In most games, Andrea is the best candidate to make that happen.
I love Ed and Amir and what they bring to the team, but neither of those guys are going to get a double team until they come up with an effective post move or two. Jonas won’t either when he gets here and unless they get a stud in the draft that can immediately step in and draw doubles, Andrea will be our best option a year from now.
So despite all the flaws (and there are many), we’re stuck with Andrea until a better offensive option comes along. One that can draw defenders and create good looks for his teammates.
Furthermore
When is the last time Bargnani has created “good looks for his teammates”? He’s one of the worst passing big men in the league. So even if he did get double teamed, he’s not the guy I want making decisions to get others involved.
I agree with this. Andrea takes too long to see the double coming, make the read and find the open man. But again, what’s the alternative? If Derozan can start drawing doubles and moving the ball quickly on a nightly basis, or someone like Bayless, Amir or Davis becomes more of a threat at the offensive end, then I’m all for doing away with Andrea.
I think the alternative is just to play Amir and Davis (two productive players) at the PF and jettison Bargnani for other assets. At the same time, get the ball into DeRozan’s hands. Use this shortened season to put these young players with potential to the test and evaluate what you have. This would accelerate the rebuild that BC has apparently committed to.
I’m behind that strategy 100% if DeRozan can show the ability to draw the extra defender every night. Depending on the matchup, I’ve seen it, but I think it’d be fair to say that at least half the league has no problem handling Demar 1 on 1. He needs to improve his dribble before he can make that next step, in my opinion.
To this point I have to disagree. Is he inefficient? Yes. But he gets doubled ALOT; especially in face-up situations.
A guy like Garnett can handle him 1 on 1. But even last night, as soon as anyone else tried to guard him he started scoring. There aren’t a tonne of guys like Garneet in this league that can handle him.
While Andrea is inefficient (enough with the long two’s) by drawing a double you get the defense rotating which SHOULD make it easier to get an open look for somebody else. I use the caps because I am aware that it often doesn’t play out that way with this team.
All I’m saying is that we don’t have anybody else that gets the reaction from the defense that Andrea does. Until we do, we’re stuck with him.
In the case of Ed Davis, I would suggest ample playing time as a means to allow him to develop an effective post move or two. Instead, he is stuck behind one of the most historically laughable big men in the league.
it’s supposed to be a rebuilding year. Let Davis play through his mistakes and learn / develop.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 22, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
I agree – but Davis will get plenty of minutes this year. As we’ve seen, Magloire and Gray really can’t contribute more than 10-15 minutes a game in total, so the big minutes should break down similar to last year’s, except Bargnani won’t have the legs to play the minutes he did last year in this compressed schedule. Lots of minutes to go around.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Just to clarify
My ongoing frustration with the Raptors – despite the decent coaching hire, recent draft successes, and small ‘wins’ on the trade front – centres around having copious amounts of Andrea Bargnani shoved down my throat.
If the two preseason games are any indication, Bargs is going to continue to command the majority of minutes and shot attempts despite being widely acknowledged as one of the least productive players in the league and an historically inept rebounder. Productive guys like Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are going to suffer. And, ultimately, a player like Davis is going to say “screw you guys, I’m outta here” at the end of his rookie deal.
Bargs is all over their marketing efforts and Twitter feed. Devlin drones on and on about the guy like he’s the second coming of Dirk. It feels like the organization believes that if they talk about Bargs enough and blow enough smoke up people’s a$$es, fans will honestly believe that this guy is a future All-Star.
But guess what? The fanbase isn’t solely comprised of Doug Smith’s mindless readership. So a certain number of fans – myself included – will continue to bang their heads against the wall while watching the insanity continue to unfold in Toronto.
I’m going to attempt to watch this season with an eye to the future (read: high lottery pick) and the hope that Toronto will some day turn the corner – but I make no promises that my ongoing frustration with this team’s direction will not influence my comments.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 22, 2011 12:43 PM EST reply actions
Devlin, Doug Smith
It makes one wonder if they understand the game of basketball? Hearing them spout the company line, all the time, gives them no creditability in my mind.
But here’s something positive. I like Casey. It is a long process but I believe he can change the culture of this team in time for JV and next years #1 (hopefully) pick. Add in Ed Davis and Amir and DD (if he can improve) and we all of a sudden have 4 players under 23 who all have potential who grew up under the same coach and playing together…..
But can BC and Casey be honest with us after the first ten games of the season, when Andrea is not working out and we are 2-8, and admit that Andrea is not a piece to build around. Bosh was not a piece to build a championship team around, and by comparison Andrea is much worse. Much worse. Admit it. Stop marketing an Italian string bean has the face of the franchise. I think he has to go, but maybe he can be a spark off the bench, maybe. But let’s admit that he will never be a Franchise player on a winning team. Ever.
Thinking Andrea is a franchise player is like thinking fat chicks look good in bikinis. Some people may believe it, but it’s just not true.
Colangelo as much as said that Bargs is not a franchise player a week or so ago in an interview. He criticized people’s criticism of Bargnani as “not a franchise player” by stating that he is paid like a 3rd guy. The team is moving past Bargs aready – if he can get something good, he’ll be moved (Colangelo directly said no one is safe when talking about Bargs in that same interview), if not, he can be a piece. But he won’t be the cornerstone.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
BC says alot
only to act differently with regards to the team.
Its easy to say Bargnani isn’t payed like a franchise player and therefore isn’t. However he was without question treated like one last year. Even this year its not much of a stretch to look at the Casey hiring, atleast in part, as an act with intentions of improving Bargnani’s usefulness specifically (ie. Casey ‘hid’ Dirk so he should be able to ‘hide’ Bargnani).
Bargnani is also in his first contract after his rookie deal. No one in that situation is ‘payed’ like a franchise player. Simply put, league rules prevent it. That said his contract is less than the potential maximum he could make, and I don’t doubt that BC thought he was getting a deal at the time.
I’ve said this alot with BC and Bargnani, and I’ll probably say it alot more, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 22, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
He signed for a starting salary of 8 million, compared to the max of 13.6 million. Which is a total salary of 5 years 50 million, or 10 million per year, compared to the max available of 5 years, 82.3 million, or 16.5 million per year.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
i.e. Roughly 60% of a max contract for a player with less than 7 years experience, and less than half of a veteran max contract.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 22, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
like I said, his deal is less than the potential maximum he could get… but that hardly means he hasnt been treated like a franchise guy.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 22, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, but when you weigh his contract against his production, he is one of the most overpaid players in the league (I beleive he was second most overpaid player last season as ranked by Wages of Wins). This also doesn’t change the fact that he has been treated like the franchise player up to this point.
Not buying this “he’s paid like a 3rd option” nonsense. He consumes an overwhelming amount of minutes and shots at the expense of far more productive players. Until that discrepancy gets resolved and he’s either traded or moved to the bench, it’s open season on Bargs, the coaching staff and the front office.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 22, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Hackett you are my new favourite poster, unbiased and realistic.
You will get sick of repeating yourself though, as I have said as well Bargnani is a third option and paid like one.
People just need something to complain about and he is teh easiest target. The Raptors success has nothing to do with the fact we have had superstars leave us 4 times in the last 13 years. Damon, VC, Tmac and Bosh. It is all because Bargnani is not a superstar at the #1 pick and is still here. There are two players in that draft that have turned out better Aldridge and Gay and the rest is extremely weak, and that is Bargnani’s fault.
It also has nothing to do with the fact Kleiza, Johnson, Barbosa, Forbes and Butler averaged a whopping 44ppg between them last season.
No its the fact that Andrea Bargnani is our best offensive player and he hasn’t left us, but we are losing.
Dude, you need to go back and review that draft. Only TWO players better than Bargnani? Seriously?
Five years of Brandon Roy far surpassed anything Bargs will ever accomplish at the NBA level.
You may have also heard of Rajon Rondo, Kyle Lowry and Paul Millsap. Granted none of those players were in the conversation for the #1 overall pick – but all of those guys are far better pros than Bargs.
I’ll give you Adam Morrison. Bargs is more talented than Morrison. Congrats on that one…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 22, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
your right I forgot a couple of guys. Care to name anyone else from that draft?
Kyle Lowry has been a 7ppg/4apg until last year, but thats still ONLY 5 players! in a weak draft. and NONE are franchise players.
You get all sarcastic and say Adam Morrison well the draft also had…shelden williams, foye, O’bryant, Sene, JJ, Hilton Armstrong, Thabo, Ronnie Brewer, Cedric Simmons, Pecherov, Quincy Douby, Balkman.
I’d say Bargnani has had a better career than all of those guys. Why don’t you congratulate me on those as well? And how would Rondo, Milsap and Lowry do on the raptors? Would Rondo and Lowry have even played when we had Jose and Tj Ford. Which would of stunted their growth and what about Milsap with Bosh around.
So here is two questions for you.
Would Rondo be an all star if he was forced to play behind Jose and Ford, and not have KG, Pierce and Ray Allen to mentor him?
Should we have spent our first over all pick on a third string pg?
Did anyone mention Felton? Wasn’t he from that draft?
As for the argument that Barney is paid like a 3rd player, the problem is when he got the contract he barely played like an 8th player. BC decided to gamble that Barney would grow into the contract because 7 footers don’t grow on trees and he was his pick. If BC had paid him what he was actually worth at the time(say about half what he is actually getting) we wouldn’t be in this predicament now.
“The Raptors success has nothing to do with the fact we have had superstars leave us 4 times in the last 13 years. Damon, VC, Tmac and Bosh. It is all because Bargnani is not a superstar at the #1 pick and is still here. "
Don’t get this logic. So we should heap praise on Bargnani simply because he’s still here??? It’s precisely because he’s so crap that he’s still here.
Apparently sarcasm is above you, I thought I laid it on thick enough.
The problem is the entire roster and not anyone player specifically, but it seems like only one player gets blamed. I do not think he is a franchise player but can be a piece on a succesful team.
We have a team of misfits, and its not Bargs fault, its our management. The C position in Toronto has been a disaster even back to having Bosh, and the wing position as well and we have tried quick fixes and had no improvement. The pg position is also mediocre at best. To blame it solely on one player is stupidity.
The blame needs to be spread, even to our players like Amir.
Fine he is a double double threat all the time, but averages almost 4 fouls in 25minutes! If he wasn’t in foul trouble maybe Bargs would have less minutes. If Calderon could guard the pg position Bargs wouldnt have to help as much. If our wings could shoot the ball it would help spacing, etc etc etc. If Bargnani could create for his teammates better and he could guard his own man and help more we would be better.
The issue isn’t one person! its the whole team.
And if Jerry could kill Ben he would be richer. Blaming Calderon for Barney sucking as a defender and rebounder is a little weak. Yes Calderon could make Barney look less sucky but there are limits to how much he can really do. Even the best on the ball defender is going to break down at some point (defensively) and I have no trust that Barney has any ability to play proper help defense, almost at all. Until he can at least be competent, they could have Chris Paul or Rondo at point and it wouldn’t make much more of a difference.
Its not an excuse. Its called teamwork.
If the other teammates do things that cover up for another teammates weakness than they work well together. Hence the term….teamwork. Bargnani obviously has potential to block alot of shots because when he was a PF playing beside Bosh he averaged more BPG (1.4bpg)than Al Horford, Gerald Wallace, Al Jefferson to name a few. Does that mean he is a great help defender? NO!!!!! But he can be adequate.
This whole roster is flawed, and to blame one person for it is ridiculous. Everyone talks about usage, well how is he being used? As a #1 option. If we had a legitimate star here, who drew double teams and AB and DD were given the ball in situations where there man was forced to help and was now closing out their effectiveness would go up drastically versus them catching the ball with the D focused on them. Plus Bargnani is not a great passer, and a franchise player has to be a good passer, but WAIT we don’t pay him like one. So than why are we complaining?
So now we’re adding another excuse for Bargnani? His defense only looks as bad as it does because of poor defending teammates? So why don’t Amir and Ed Davis’ defense look that bad?
And how many blocks a player gets is not an indication of how good a help defender he is. Who’s the better defender, JaVale McGee (2nd in the league in BPG) or AL Horford (28th). I’ll give you a clue, it’s not McGee who is actually not a good defender.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
nobody
is saying there aren’t issues with other players.
But the players who have the largest impact (both positively and negatively) on a team will get an uneven amount of praise.
So someone who gets paid alot, gets alot of minutes and gets alot of usage will get more criticism than someone who gets paid very little and barely sees the floor.
$, playing time and usage are not equal. Impact on the team is not equal. Therefore criticism is not equal either.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 23, 2011 8:02 AM EST up reply actions
Your argument about money is ridiculous, you are comparing him to the rest of the team. Compare him to the rest of the NBA and guys who are making 4yr10million. It’s not a steep contract at all, the raptors are a small and biased smaple size (yes biased because they are awful). Compare them to other teams and see wehre the contract falls then.
And as for impact on the team, if he had someone drawing double teams and passing him the ball would he be more effective? ABSOLUTELY! which then he would be a number 2 or 3 option WHICH WE PAY HIM LIKE!
If I am wrong about any of those points please, tell me how. I don’t really want your opinion more facts actually. To place the criticism on one player for a team that was 2nd last in the NBA, is like giving Michael Jordan all the credit for his 6 championships. OOO wait there was Scottie, Phil, Dennis, and more. That’s right its a TEAM SPORT
why would I compare
Bargs to the rest of the NBA when I was responding to you on the criticism to this team???
You aren’t necessarily wrong on your points (although I don’t think he draws nearly the number of double teams people want to believe he does), but you neglect to mention the other ways he negatively impacts the team. It also doesn’t matter that he is payed like a 2nd or 3rd option when he is treated by this team as a first option.
Oh and I can give you ‘facts’… but will you believe them? If I post the number of statistics here that show Bargnani’s value ($ vs usage vs production) will you take them to heart or tell me how statistics don’t hold value?
yes basketball is a team sport. And having a weak link makes it more difficult for the rest of the team to have success or be more successful going forward.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 23, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
My point is not him being treated as a number 1 option, my point is what he is. Why would I bother with what he isn’t has that become obvious? He is not a franchise player. Who is claiming that he is? Its not Colangelo, its not me and Djhackett. I don’t even know why you bring it up. Our team is awful this year, we have been rated as the worst or second worst team by pretty much every ranking system and I agree. I would be shocked if we won more than 20 games.
Our best player according to several people can’t play more than 25 minutes a game because he fouls too much!
When did I say Bargnani draws double teams? I have never said that. People play him man to man straight up. I have never said that so please don’t put words in my mouth.
Number 2 or 3 players are not meant to carry a team and will fail if they are meant to. Which is what is happening.
I agree he is what he is
and what he is is not worth 10 mil a year, not worth a starting position in the NBA and not worth guaranteeing usage and minutes for.
The last two can change over time, the first (his $ value) can’t (atleast until his contract runs out which is 4 years away).
As for the franchise player talk, you brought up:
“which then he would be a number 2 or 3 option WHICH WE PAY HIM LIKE!”
He may not be ‘paid’ like it, but he is still treated like a 1st option. Which, regardless of his pay, is still a problem. Plus the idea of ‘team building’ from the bottom up is just ridiculous, especially with a one dimensional player. But I’ve had this discussion with you before. It makes no sense to ‘build’ around your 2nd or 3rd option. If a team wants to keep a player long term and doesn’t have their star yet, that guy better be able to fit any situation. Why handicap your team by narrowing the scope of the building process?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 23, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
The discussion of whether Bargnani is propperly paid for a number 2 or 3 option cannot be contemplated without discussing his value vs. production. In the link below, if you scroll down, you will note that Andrea Bargnani is listed as the 2nd most OVERPAID player in the ENTIRE NBA. Second only behind Michael Redd who was injured for the entire season.
http://wagesofwins.com/2011/07/05/just-desserts-overpaid-underpaid-remix/
I could understand the rationale for using Bargnani as a bench/rotation player for about 15 to 20 mins a game or situationally when shooting (inefficient shooting) is required. However, there is no way that type of player should be paid $10 mil a year!
agreed kobe bryant is the second most overpaid player ont eh lakers. they should trade him. Yao Ming was more valuable than Bargnani last year and he missed the whole year. Luke Harangody definitely is better than Antawn Jamison. Carlos Boozer was useful the the Bulls.
What do you want me to say? There numbers and obviosuly have flaws, KOBE BRYANT IS ONLY AHEAD OF LUKE WALTON!
Do I think Bargnani should get 20 shots a game? NO. Do I think he is a good passer? NO. Do I think that if he was the trail post and got to catch and attack a defender in a close out he would be effective? YES.
If we can’t find a way to use a 7’0 who has averaged over 1 blk 2 of the last 3 years and was top 20 in shot blockign 2 years ago, who can stretch the Defence and take guys off the bounce, that is sad. He is not a franchise player.
Should the Lakers trade Kobe? Should the Pacers trade Granger? Should the Bulls trade Boozer? The Grizzlies trade Gay? Should the Heat have started Dampier over Bosh? Should Farmar have started over Deron? Mozgov over Amare? If Hedo Turkoglu was so underpaid why did we trade him? Why didn’t we start Julian Wright over DD?
The answer to all these questions are obviosuly no, but if we use your stats the answer is yes. So obviously there is a flaw in the system. Does it have some validity, yes. But it is not the be all and end all. Players have skills and the goal of basketball (as a team sport) is finding players who compliment each other. Which we obviosuly don’t have and so by forcing a player who is ilequipped to be a #1 option, to be a # 1 option(out of position no less) is like forcing a square peg into a round hole.
I think you should change your name to moneyball11 because it is becoming clearer and clearer that statistics are everything for you.
If I am wrong please illuminate me to your righteous and brilliant mind.
Bargnani IS being paid like a 3rd option, yes. But the problem is that he doesn’t have a good enough all around game to play enough on a good team to be your third option. The reason he is able to score what he does is because he’s playing on a bad team. The better his teammates, the less he would play because he’s simply too much of a liability. His scoring, which is valuable to a bad team without a lot of talent, would be less valuable on a better team with better players, more of whom would be able to score.
And the problem with Bargnani is that he’s not a franchise player, but due to his liabilities, he needs to be built around like one in order to cover them up. He’s a complimentary player that needs to be treated like a franchise player.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
"And the problem with Bargnani is that he’s not a franchise player, but due to his liabilities, he needs to be built around like one in order to cover them up."
Precisely! I don’t understand the logic where you are building around your supposed “third option”. And if you have Andrea Bargnani starting on your team, you need to shore up all 4 other positions with defense and rebounding, so essentially you are FORCED to build around him. Which is insane considering his productin value and the fact that he is a net deficit when he is on the court.
And the problem with Bargnani is that he’s not a franchise player, but due to his liabilities, he needs to be built around like one in order to cover them up. He’s a complimentary player that needs to be treated like a franchise player.
You’d have difficulty explaining the Bargnani issue any better than that. Nice work, Tim.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 23, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
We are almost getting there guys. Its only taken how long?
What do we need to build around him?
A true 5 who can protect the basket? Aren’t we waiting for one to come over from Europe.
Two athletic wings who can attack off the bounce and draw double teams. If we get Harrison Barnes we would have barnes and DD, if people really feel like Barnes is a franchise player wouldn’t that bumb down Bargs to #3 on the option list behind DD and Barnes. ALSO, any limitations in range that DD has (although looks like he has improved) Bargnani helps because of his range. If Barnes and DD become solid defenders which they should be able to. We suddently have good wing defence, a basket protecting C. What else do we need OOOO just a pg.
Looks like pieces are falling into place and we haven’t even built around him intentional. We just let his skill set fall into place. Even if all this goes correctly though he may be shipped out because Davis could be a star, and if he is Bargs has to go.
Anyways glad you guys are finally stepping into the light. As you all said we need players to ‘build around’ or cover up his liabilities and we already have some.
Glad we are all on board now.
Well, Bargnani would need four players around him that were, at least, very good defensively, in order to cover for him. That’s not DeRozan and Harrison Barnes will probably be a good defender, but I doubt good enough to cover for Bargnani. And Valanciunas will have to be Dwight Howard-like to cover for Bargnani in the paint. And they’ll all need to be above average rebounders.
And still, I don’t feel that a big man as poor defensive as Bargnani is can ever truly be covered for by teammates. In the playoffs, teams will eventually be able to take advantage and he will end up hurting the team. It’s why teams with poor defending big men never seem to be able to win a Championship (Dirk is actually a decent defender, especially team defender).
So if you’re fine with a team with limitations then you’re fine trying to “build around” Bargnani. Personally I’m not.
Glad we’re all on board, then.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Thanks DHackett
That’s exactly what I wanted to hear. So no more talk of how BC is blindly in love with AB. Thank Goodness.
Now move him before Feb. when Amirs Ankle heals and Ed and Amir can take the bulk of the minutes in the front court.
Trade him for a solid point guard. Then draft Barnes. Only problem is the only team who I can think of with two pgs who are young and who need help upfront is Philly. Maybe Ed can work some magic there. They won’t move Jrue so it would have to be for Williams. Our PG of the future does not need to be an all-star. He only needs to be good.
Barnes (if we get him)
JV at the 5
Ed at the 4
DD at the 2
Amir 1st big off the bench
Those are all more important positions to win a ring. But the PG needs to be good and Williams might be a nice fit. We shouldn’t waist our pick next year on a point guard unless someone steps up and stands out a lot. We should draft for the best athlete and player available but it would be great if Barnes was available and became our all-star 3 for years to come.
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