Raptors Interested in Chuck Hayes? Let's Hope So.
by Adam Francis on Dec 2, 2011 11:45 AM EST
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With the Toronto Raptors rumoured to be interested in free agent forward Chuck Hayes, the HQ evaluates his potential addition.
Buried amongst the endless Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Dwight Howard free agent rumours was this little nugget yesterday; that the Toronto Raptors could be one of the potential suitors for free agent forward Chuck Hayes.
If you're unfamiliar with Hayes, he's a six-year NBA vet who's spent his entire career as a forward for the Houston Rockets, and who had his best season last year, finally getting consistent minutes under coach Rick Adelman.
He's hardly a scoring threat considering he's averaged 4.4 points over his NBA career, but he's a solid rebounder (10.3 boards per 36 minutes) despite his diminutive six-foot, six-inch stature.
So why the interest from the Raptors?
It's a good question so let's take an in-depth look.
For starters, as we know, Toronto appears to be keen on moving Andrea Bargnani to the power forward position this season, leaving a gaping hole at center. (Although some would argue that considering his contributions last season at that spot, the hole is simply, still there.) Currently on the team's roster, Solomon Alabi is the only center under contract, and barring an explosion of skill advancement this off-season, Mr. Alabi doesn't appear to even be ready to back-up the 5 spot yet.
So the Raps are definitely in the market for a center.
The problem is, as Tim Chisholm pointed out so well in his recent piece for TSN.ca, the team likely has their franchise center via last year's draft, Jonas Valanciunas, and are simply biding time until he comes across the pond next season.
One potential fix then for the coming season is to go the band-aid route, and instead of going hogwild and trying for a Nene or Tyson Chandler, targeting a less-expensive option on a short-term deal.
An option like, say, Chuck Hayes.
Hayes may only be 6-6, but he spent the bulk of his time playing the 5 for Houston last season, and posted an excellent defensive win share while doing so. His PER playing the 4 was an underwhelming 14.2 (league average remember is 15), but at the 5, he sported a much more respectable 17.9, a nice feat considering his offensive woes (he's a career 60 per cent free throw shooter.) He's traditionally been one of the league's best defenders considering his size and playing time, and is one of the those players NBA stat-heads love to praise.
Considering Toronto's historic defensive woes then, on paper, this interest from TO makes a lot of sense.
Add in the fact that Hayes, like new coach Dwane Casey, is a University of Kentucky product, and that Casey pays attention to advanced NBA metrics, and it seems more and more reasonable that the Dinos would look to make an offer come December 9, especially considering Hayes' price tag.
He's made just under $2M his last few seasons with Houston so it's not hard to imagine that Toronto could get him for a very reasonable price, something that's key considering the Raps have only about $7M to play with this off-season, and more than one empty roster spot to fill.
In fact back in July when we looked at potential free agent center targets for Toronto, we wrote the following about Hayes as an option:
Undersized yes, but a beast of a rebounder and hustler who has the length to play the 5 at times. For $2 to $3M, you could do a lot worse, especially as a stop-gap.
And I still believe this to be the case.
The ideal scenario in my books this year is for the team to give its youngsters as much run as possible, improve defensively, but still fall well short of the playoffs, ensuring a top five pick in next year's draft.
To me, adding someone like Hayes plays right into this "best case."
He'll help, along with Casey, on the defensive end, but not enough individually to drastically alter the team's win projection, even in a shortened season. However he'll be a nice first step in changing the club's defensive culture, and yet likely be available at a very reasonable cost, thus keeping Toronto's cap space for next off-season intact.
At 28, he's still got a number of good years left so a three-year deal to me wouldn't be an absurd notion, especially since there will likely be a steep learning curve for Valanciunas once he comes on-board. We see this with NBA centers quite frequently so a three year contract for Hayes would provide some safety in terms of allowing Val to develop.
It also gives some safety to Bryan Colangelo should he decide to deal one of his three power forwards to shore up other areas. Amir Johnson and Ed Davis duplicate each other to a large extent and if this "Bargs at the 4" experiment doesn't work, he could be out the door too. So if one of those three gets moved, Hayes could easily slide over to the 4 in a pinch.
Above all else though, Hayes is the type of player that ends up on winning teams. Like Reggie Evans, he doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, is incredibly efficient in areas that result in wins (defence, rebounding etc), and for a team desperately looking to shed its soft image, the incredibly tough Hayes would be a very solid building block. Wages of wins actually ranked him second to Kris Humphries in terms of free agent power forwards, ahead of the much pricier, David West.
My one concern would be his fit with Andrea Bargnani. The argument could be made that the duo would be fine considering Hayes' play with a similar defensive sieve in Luis Scola while still in Houston, however Scola is a better help-side defender and rebounder, and a potential Hayes'/Bargnani combo would mirror the Evans/Bargnani combo of last year, one that saw mixed results. Evans and Hayes are very similar in terms of offensive limitations, yet with Reggie being a superior rebounder, it's hard to say that a Hayes/Bargs combo would be an upgrade.
But again, if you're looking to secure a top five draft pick in 2012, this probably isn't a concern.
For the right price, I'd be all for seeing Hayes in a Raptors' uniform in the weeks to come and here's to hoping that the rumours swirling around his potential acquisition are not just indicative of Toronto's interest in him individually, but in players like Hayes who are often overlooked and undervalued, just the opposite of the team's recent free-agent philosophy.
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which means
wouldn’t it be better to just sign Reggie?
Reggie’s older and likely a lot more expensive. Plus doesn’t do so well at the 5.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 2, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/20111129/21131/one-one-dwane-casey-part-one
Interesting interview with Casey. Touches on his preparation, strategy, and opinions on free agency and how BC is approaching the season. Part 2 link at the bottom of part 1.
Some of his description of the free agent they want kind of fits Hayes as well – except the rim-protector part.
I'm alll for Hayes
I always liked his game. He won’t block any shots but he can rebound.
Yeah he’s not a lane protector per say, but Amir and Ed can provide that when paired with him. Which is why Bargs…well…you know the rest…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Toronto appears to be keen on moving Andrea Bargnani to the power forward position this season, leaving a gaping hole at center. (Although some would argue that considering his contributions last season at that spot, the hole is simply, still there.
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
we should hold a convention to try and answer this question.... perhaps we could invite Rob Ford, Strombo, Hoffa and Ed the Sock as guest speakers?
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
I think taking on someone like SG Shannon Brown would be good for this team. Especially if Weems is overseas… We need guards who can ‘guard’.
Maybe see if Jonas Jerebko fits next to James Johnson at SF?
Add me to the Chuck Hayes bandwagon too….
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Like some of these names alot. Again, not completely altering the team’s wins’ projection, but solid complements once the team gets some real star power.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
indeed. I don’t know a ton about the NBA, but pieces like brown are always helpful-as long as you’re not making them keystones.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 7, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Hayes Would Be A Triplicate of Amir and Ed
Yes he is heavier than Ed but he is shorter and now lighter than Amir of maybe the same weight.
I could see the Raptors going after Hayes as a backup but not as a stater. He doesn’t score, he can’s shoot very well and so he couldn’t replace Bargnani’s offensive numbers and he is a even a downgrade from a healthy Amir. Amir is a better shooter, runs the floor better, sets better picks. Hayes is a slightly better rebounder. The only thing he does meaningfully better than Amir is have a lower foul rate.
Hayes was 15 – 22 in his match-ups last season Amir was better at at 16 – 16.
Here’s the question though Buddha, who starts at the 5? Andrea isn’t going to, so do you want Amir there?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
My Opinion Is
Calvin Andrews is just adding names to the list of teams pursuing Hayes to raise Hayes value as a Free Agent.
Andrews may think that the Raptors would want him as an upgrade to Amir and Ed but I so he can put the Raptors on the list of interested teams.
However, I doubt the Raptors have any interest in Hayes. He would third in line behind Amir and Ed.
Hayes is an over-hyped guy who gets a lot of good press because he is short and tries to defend against Centers, which in reality he doesn’t do very well.
I hate to say it but I agree with Budda here. I would much rather see the team take a flyer on Hilton Armstrong or Kwame Brown for a couple of seasons then go after someone like Hayes. I like the idea of a hard worker on this team but to me Hayes is someone you add to your bench to give you some depth and flex not someone you add to your starting roster when you already are overcrowded at the 4 as I think Davis and Johnson will play some 5 unless one is moved for a true center.
I Also Would Prefer Kwame To Hayes
No comment on the Armstrong vs Hayes. I didn’t pay a lot of attention to him when I watched Miami play last season. Then he was replaced by a much better Haslem when Haslem returned to the lineup. I did pay attention to Haslem because he is one of my favorite players.
Armstrong was more of a non-specific minimum contract type we should look at over someone who will require more money like Hayes does. There are plenty of young centers who haven’t panned out but are still under 25 and might be worth a year or two flyer on if we can get them for cheap. Brown (and players of his ilk) is more of a multi-year stop gap.
Hayes can play the 5
Pick him up for 9 million or less for three years and I would be very happy. Jonas can hopefully play the 5 next year and platoon until he’s ready to take over the starting role.
JV at the 5, a vastly improved Ed Davis at the 4 and then Chuck Hayes and Amir off the bench bigs……I could get excited about that lineup. That lineup has the potential to be a dominant front court in the NBA. Potential, right now that’s the best thing we got. But they are young and have defensive skills that we have lacked for some time on the front line since Oakley and Antonio left.
Sign Chuck if we can get him under 3mil per year.
I Can See $2.5 - $3.0 Million A Year As A Replacement For Reggie
but not as a starter.
As a fourth big I am okay with the Raptors signing him.
Of course the cream will usually rise to the top so if the Raptors sign Hayes and he can show that he is better than Ed and/or Amir then he should get the minutes accordingly
I don’t see Hayes and Amir or Hayes and Ed as a very viable front court pairing even coming off the bench unless Amir and/or Ed can effectively up their usage rates on offense.
+1
A front court rotation of Jonas, Amir, Ed and one other big (Chuck Hayes, sure) added with this year’s pick, DeRozan and cap space… There may actually be reason for hope. Now, about that other player that currently takes up space in the front court, if they could just solve that problem, they’d be on their way!
According to Jonathan Feigen from chron.com
:
While weighing offers from four teams, Rockets center Chuck Hayes’ agent said Hayes’ preference remains to return to the Rockets, his only team in his six NBA seasons.
Hayes has received offered from the Minnesota Timberwolves, Portland Trail Blazers, Sacramento Kings and Toronto Raptors, agent Calvin Andrews said.
I Think He Could Be
No one knows what offers Hayes agent received for Hayes except for the agent and maybe Hayes himself.
People lie, especially agents and sales people. I never believe either without two solid confirmations that I consider trustworthy.
Agents and salespeople make their money off of commissions based upon what they sell, though some salespeople do work on a salary only basis. In any case, when your income is a direct result of your sales effort there is all the reason in the world to lie especially when no one can prove otherwise.
One thing I noticed about Hayes is that for a 5, he’s a very good passer (which is a good thing, considering his other offensive woes). He averaged nearly 3 assists in less than 30mpg last year. I am a big fan of bigs who pass the ball well.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
HIs Career Average Is 2.3 Assists Per 36 Minutes
with a career turnover percentage of 15.7
Last Season
-——————————
AB by comparison was 1.8 AP per 36 min and 10.5 turnover percentage
Amir last season was 1.3 AP per 36 min and 10.9 turnover percentage.
Hayes has very high turnover percentage though not nearly as awful as Reggie’s. LOL
You're distorting Hayes' numbers
- 05-06 > 13.3 min – 0.4 apg – 0.3 turnovers
- 06-07 > 21.9 min – 0.6 apg – 0.8 To
- 07-08 > 19.9 min – 1.2 apg – 0.8 To
- 08-09 > 12.1 min – 0.6 apg – 0.4 To
- 09-10 > 21.6 min – 1.7 apg – 0.9 To
- 10-11 > 28.1 min – 2.7 apg – 1.2 To ….. 8.1 Rebounds – 0.7 Blocks – 2.7 Pf
Amir
10-11 > 25.7 min – 1.1 apg – 1.0 To … 6.4 Rebounds – 1.2 Blocks – 3.7 Pf
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 2, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think Budda is saying that Hayes turns the ball over at a high percentage based on the number of possessions he as. Hayes doesn’t touch the ball a lot so his 0.9 (in ‘09/10) is high in comparison to Johnson who might have a higher usage rate (don’t know for sure without looking at the numbers but I believe that was Budda’s point).
Low Foul Rate
The other thing I like about Hayes that I didn’t touch on in the post, is that he fouls at a very low rate for someone as short as he is. The foul piece I think is going to be very important considering the Raptors’ defensive woes, so I’d be all for scooping him up.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
I think the problem is
Buddah used Chuck Hayes’ career numbers vs Bargnani and Amir’s numbers for last year….
Chuck Hayes for 2010/11 had a 14.1 ToV% and average 3.5 assists per 36
He also had a 14.3 assist % vs Bargs of 8.8% and Amir’s of 6.8%
So Hayes turns the ball over more often, but that makes sense as he also passes the ball a heck of alot more. His a:t ratio was better than both of Barg’s and Amir’s.
Usage here is difficult as it includes TOVs but not assists, and as Hayes (atleast last year) turned into one of the better passing Cs in the league, will inevitably turn the ball over more often.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 2, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I was not confirming or disputing anything just explaining that Budda might have been looking at advance metrics as opposed to just straight per game stats that Rap those Leafs seems to be mesmerized by.
oh
I am mesmerized
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I’m also a fan of simplicity, where I can appreciate the data before it gets consumed by a formula.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 2, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
No Doubt That Hayes Has Gotten More APG With Houston
Amir had a slightly higher usage so it wasn’t a question of not touching the ball visa via Hayes.
Hayes might indeed be a better passer. As I recall I already mentioned that.
However, that is about it as far as Hayes having more skill than Amir.
Hayes can not shoot
HIs career shooting percentage from beyond two feet is less than 40% and he hardly ever shoots from beyond nine feet.
Usage Rates Last Season
Amir 15.3%
Hayes 13.0%
Hayes can’t shoot and turns the ball over a lot
Amir’s rebounding rate per 36 minutes for last Jan and Feb was 9.74 vs Hayes rate of 10.4 About a half a rebound a game difference based upon the minutes that they played last season. Not significant like I post previously.
Give Us A Friggen Break
Amir played the last two months of the season on one good ankle
For more accurate numbers of what he most likely will do this season, if not better you have to look at his numbers from last Jan and Feb before he was injured
Jan
Games 17
MPG 29.2
PPG 12.1
RPG 7.3
APG 1.4
BPG 0.9
FPG 4.1
FG% 64%
FT% 79%
Feb
Games 10
MPG 29.0
PPG 12.0
RPG 8.4
APG 1.7
BPG 1.9
FPG 4.0
FG% 60%
FT% 77%
Yes
I know Amir was hurting. I also thought it was idiotic for him to be playing. There was nothing to gain, while lots to lose. But that’s another debate.
Point was – Hayes passes more, and that’s a stat I value. You pushed that aside when you quoted his stats – in an apples & oranges sort-of-way.
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Despite his lack of scoring, Hayes is more aggressive with the ball. I like that in a player. And that’s no disrespect to Amir – who I believe can be a long member of this team.
Hayes has potential to bring a more controlled version of Reggie – with much better ball movement. In the past, I’ve hated the moments (10 – 15 seconds), when it seemed Bosh had too much pine tar on his hands.
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Raptors need to build this team in stages – small or big – and Hayes @ 3 million or so, seems like a worthy cause.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 2, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
The lockout is over, but we’re still hearing the same old nonsense:
Why on earth would you move your LEAST PRODUCTIVE player ahead of two of your MOST PRODUCTIVE players? What recipe for winning basketball is this strategy being lifted from? Because, honestly, I’m at a loss trying to figure it out…
Chuck Hayes — if the rumours are true — is another small step in the right direction. But until they trade or use their amnesty on Bargnani, it feels like this team is going to continue to run on the treadmill of mediocrity.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2011 2:44 PM EST reply actions
Welcome back brother, welcome back.
The voice of sanity… I want one of you HQ guys to ask Casey to justify this come pre-season pressers. Hey Casey if you’re such a statophile, how do you justify this. We understand why BC would do this (savig face, saving rep, can’t be objective, can’t be rational, bad judgement of player value etc. etc. etc.) but Casey, you’re suppose to know better! If Bargnani averages 35+ mins a game with the same results as last season and Ed/Amir suffer as a reslult, I won’t be able to take Casey seriously.
I’m taking a wait-and-see approach with Casey. But the minute he starts pulling a ‘Triano’ (i.e. mindlessly starting Bargnani and re-inserting him into the lineup to get his 35 mpg, with little regard to the on-court production), he’s lost me.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Well put Defensive Stance. Unless they think they can bring in a guy like Chandler who could make Bargnani look acceptable enough on D that it ups his trade value this notion of starting Bargs at the expense of Ed and Amir is senseless. Does anybody think guarding power forwards will make Andrea a better help defender somehow, or that he’s suddenly going punish smaller defenders in the post?
Not unless they have a head injury or haven’t watched Bargnani play basketball for the last 5 years.
Going to write at length about this on Monday. I agree with D Stance to a certain extent, but long term, I think you almost need to keep giving Bargnani minutes, just to ensure a top pick in a loaded draft.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Franchise
When you started this blog (or as part of a team)….was it because you felt there wasn’t a true critical analysis of the Raptors being done, or was it because there wasn’t any analysis being done at all …..or very limited?
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 2, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
(savig face, saving rep, can’t be objective, can’t be rational, bad judgement of player value etc. etc. etc.)
Love it.
And yes, given the chance, that question will surely be asked.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Awesome Thanks!
That’s why the HQ is so brilliant! Wouldn’t want to have to wait for Doug Smith to ask that question…………………….. ; )
CHISHOLM: FIVE INEXPENSIVE OPTIONS FOR THE RAPTORS ON D
I don’t have any comments on this Chisholm article at this time.
Not exactly a murderer’s row, eh?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 2, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
One Thing Though
Mo Evans is a pretty good three point shooter (career 36.8% though the last two seasons he was way below that percentage on threes made) and the Raptors desperately need some decent three points shooters.
Yeah, those are ok guys to add for the right price. Jason Collins, for example, would be a useful post defender to have in the rotation, but not if the price is high.
Read that piece too and had the same response as most of you. It’s tough because in many ways, you don’t want the team to improve THAT much…so a guy like Collins makes sense as a band-aid, similar to Hayes.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
I Would Like To See The Raptors Go 32 - 34
assuming that you will need to play .500 to make the playoffs in the EC.
yeah I don’t understand this
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
one of the most confusing things in life you can do is try to understand Buddah. Imagine a guy who you think is high, but isn’t, acting like he’s high, while completely against all forms of illicit drug use.
ironically enough, impossible to understand while not high.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 2, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
You Have To Have A Good Memory
and or read all of my posts to follow me.
That is all.
You Have To Read
my post on the prior thread.
To repeat what I said over there. I want the Raptors to win just enough games this season to finish one game out of the playoffs. I am willing to trade the chances of getting a good ping pong ball bounce for a chance at the 16th seed.
I’ve read your arguments on the other thread and I maintaine my -1. Not sure why you would WANT this team to play just well enough to not get a good shot at the lottary and not play in the playoffs…
That Is Not What I Wrote
Man clean up your corneas
I said I want the Raptors to miss the playoffs by one game whatever their record has to be to do that.
I hope that is simple enough to understand.
Buddah, I know exactly what you said. You do understand what the implications of that would be right? You understand how the NBA draft lottary system works don’t you?
As illogical as Buddah might sound
I agree with him
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When it’s all said and done next April, and Raptors miss the play-offs …again …. I want it happening with the Raptors going all out. And knowing that with a top prospect coming on board + hopefully a decent pick, these guys will be pumped to do something we couldn’t do with a STAR player.
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I’d like our young talent to get back to what winning is ….. gain some play-off experience … and upgrade that desire to become a Contender. Forgoing all that, for a mathematically poor shot at a Saviour, doesn’t interest me.
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Everyone quotes advanced metrics ad nausea, yet they never focus on the odds for that miracle.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 2, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
cause we all know that a team with Barney as their best player can only improve without winning the lottery right? How many times do we have to call you out on this complete nonsense? You may be right that lottery team’s do not always draft themselves out of trouble but just ask the Maple Leafs about finishing just outside the playoffs every year and how far that gets you. The reality is that FA are not coming here with the current roster and trading our way out is going to be difficult so lets just lose and draft well for once instead of pissing our picks on long term projects that don’t pan out just cause they are 7 feet and can hit a 3 on occasion.
what advantage is there in not making the playoffs?
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
How about netting an actual franchise player to build around. Who are we suppose to build around now? Chuck Hayes? Wake up people and smell reality we need to suck for a few years before we can actually build something worth building. Well that and stop reaching for projects when there are players who can actually play already available.
Oh I know. I’d love for us to finish at the bottom of the standings. I’m trying to figure out why Buddah wants the Raptors to finish 9th in the conference.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I Already Explained Why On The Previous Thread.
The team has a core of young players. They need the experience of winning as much as possible. Winning to a great extent is a learned thing.
Remember how many games the Raptors were in last season and then lost in the 4th quarter. Way, way too many. That was because they are mostly young and don’t know how to close out games in the NBA to come out on top.
The only way to learn how to do that is to experience it. I would actually prefer that the Raptors make the playoffs but unless they make a major roster move or two I don’t see that happening in 2011-12 so I just put in the best possible record a team could have without making the playoffs as a goal since they would have a good number of winning experiences this coming season if they could do that.
The team has a core of young ROLE players. No amount of “experience of winning” is going to change the fact that they need to aquire some legit bluechip talent and the only way they are going to do this is through the draft. Unless you think CP3 and Howard are going to be fighting each other to sign with the Rpators next summer.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot teach it to win. I have no idea what that means but my point is this team will never, even in a best case scenario, win a playoff round so why bother. The point is to build a championship caliber team and the pieces are just not there. You need ALL-STAR Caliber players on your team to have any real chance to win so unless you secretly work for the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund and are looking to boast ticket sales making or just missing the playoffs is completely pointless.
Because
it balances winning with the optics of a lottery. It means playing a sport as it should always be – integrity and all.
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Tanking – under the guise of player development – is contrary to everything I want from a sport. It harkens me back to Carterish days, when fans had their fill of “resistant effort”.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 2, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
sure but why say you want the Raps to miss the playoffs? Obviously if it comes down to a couple games at the end of the season, surely you won’t be sitting there saying “I hope we lose the next couple games so we don’t get in!”
the taste of playoffs for the young ones on the team would light a fire within them far more strong in my opinion
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
sure but why say you want the Raps to miss the playoffs?
>
the taste of playoffs for the young ones on the team would light a fire within them far more strong in my opinion
You’re right – the experience side of me would like to see these guys taste play-offs. It builds character and poise for future battles, while demonstrating what`s essential for a championship .
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The pragmatic side of me knows it’s a long shot.
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The expectation side of me thinks we should be within striking distance of post-season, if our current talent makes the next step.
In hindsight, 9th place may seem strangely satisfying.
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But yes …. should we be within a game of the play-offs, and we don`t give it a run during the last few games, I would consider that a failure.
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As for McGateway`s comment (below)
This team is not good and if you think it is then I am not sure we can even begin to discuss the future of the team.
I look at this team now, and in the future. We have talent right now – inexperienced and young. Davis has less than a year under his belt. Amir has developed into an ideal back-up Big.
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Calderon is – IMO – the perfect mentor. Unless we get something worthwhile in a trade, I`d run his contract out, and resign him at a back-up rate. He can tutor the next PG – and remain part of the team he says he loves. Where else could you get a back-up PG like Jose.
Calderon fits a part of the equation …. that`s 2 years down the road – just like his contract.
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I also think Demar – with Casey`s help – could make a big step forward, especially with his 3 point shot. Get that part up to par, and it will change his ability to attack the net.
And as always, I think AB has it in him to be better.
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Once you add Jonas on the team (where would he place in the next draft) … mix in a top 15 pick (Ed Davis was 13th), while finally developing a defensive strategy, and one has to imagine a much better team.
Certainly a team that could win 40 – 45 wins next season, and 25-27 this one – even with a shortened schedule. Pending normal injury situations.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 3, 2011 3:38 AM EST up reply actions
Your optimism is commendable but completely misplaced. I cannot speak for everyone but I have not seen enough from any of the players to believe that a little seasoning and adding Jonas is going to turn them into a 45 win team without a single All-star caliber player. It’s true that a few players still have some room to grow but I still think we desperately need to add a franchise player through the draft before we can even begin to talk about winning championships as that is the point. Winning 45 games might get you in the playoffs but its doesn’t scream championship contender and the people running this team have not inspired enough for me to be confident that they can add talent in the later part of the draft to find the Rondo like player to put us over the top down the road.
Because at the end of the day no one wants the players to tank we want the team to tank and even though it may seem there isn’t a difference there is. This team is not good and if you think it is then I am not sure we can even begin to discuss the future of the team. I mean at the end of the day we may disagree on how the team gets better but if we disagree that they need to get better then we are speaking different languages.
I'm down with the
don’t go out and make a splash in FA movement….. but I’m not for the ‘sign a peice a crap player and waste a roster spot for a year’ movement Chisholm is advocating. That list is a group of incredibly pointless players. Chuck Hayes I see as a guy thats not that good, but not bad, and would have a roster spot and offer some usefulness going forward.
I mentioned in the other thread that there is a difference between tanking and developing… Chisholm is heavy on the intentional losing train.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 2, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Six Moves The Toronto Raptors Should Make
by Stephon Brotherston at Hoopwsworld.
Nothing earth shattering here. He mentions this as #1
#1 Win the Marc Gasol sweepstakes
which I agree with.
He also has extend Barbosa, though I am not sold on this. Barbosa is a pretty bad defender.
I would rather see the Raptors sign Arron Afflalo who could maybe even start ahead of DeMar. Afflalo who is very good defender and three point shooter can play both the #2 and the #3
Love Afflalo!
Forgot about him. Raptors should look to sign him.
O/T But This Is A Big News Or At Least A Big Rumor
According to Marc Spearsfrom Yahoo! Sports:
Paul has reached out to Orlando Magic center Dwight Howard recently, encouraging Howard to find a way for the two to play together, sources told Yahoo! Sports. That would be a difficult scenario for the Knicks to make happen. Paul’s desire to join the Knicks was cemented after he spent so much time in New York over the summer with close friend, Carmelo Anthony.
Howard, Melo, Amare and CP3 in N.Y. together? May the basketball have mercy on the the other teams in the EC if this happens. LOL
or do they become
the Philadelphia Eagles or circa early 2000 NY Rangers of the NBA? The sports gods have a funny way of punishing teams that have a slew of stars but no role players.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 2, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Karma Baby - Life Is All About Karma
BTW: How is your Karma doing? Are you being nice to her? LOL
I would think the Knicks would have to trade Amare and would in any scenario in which they and Paul and Howard. Either that or they would have have 4 players on their roster and a bunch of NBDLer’s on their roster.
The Knicks with Howad, CP3 and Melo would be better than the Heat’s big 3. There I said it. Have at it…
I’m assuming you implied Amare is still there. In which case, absolutely, yes.
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
No, minus Amare
I think thir role definition would be much better than the Heat. I think Wade/LeBron is somewhat redundant and Howard impacts the game in infinantly more ways than Bosh.
I still think they’d be lacking a capable wing defender, but if they had that, I definitely think they’d be better than Miami
elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly
I can see your point but I am not a Melo fan as I don’t think he gives you as much as either Wade or Lebron do even if they are somewhat redundant. Plus I think Lebron is a better team player than Melo sometimes maybe too much so.
Hear you on Melo, but when you look at the sum of the parts: Melo is as good as anyone offensively and as a closer (most game winning shots in the NBA – yes more than Kobe -since 2003) Paul is the best PG in the game and Howard is the best centre. Championship teams need good role defenition. To me the heat’s big 3 is just 3 guys waiting in line to “take over the game”.
Yeah but I wonder how much of that is because Denver has been such a middling team over the years and had to fight for more wins than LA did who tended to cruise to victories. It’s too bad I am too lazy to see what those percentages broke down to (wins by 5 points or more per game over a 8 year span). It is a shame that there are no stat geeks who love that sort of thing on this website.
That sounds like a challange! LOL
Anyone? God knows I don’t have the patients to look that up…
balance is more important then people think. I’d rather have 2 superstars and a good lineup then 3 superstars and a poor one.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 7, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
If they hold onto all 4 then fill out there roster with d-leaguers and veterans minimum washups, they are easily contenders. Orlando, with one of the worst defensive rosters in the league outside of Dwight, allowed the 3rd fewest ppg. The knicks already had one of the best offenses in the league last year, I can’t see that changing when they bring in Paul and Dwight
Assuming he’s amnestied, what do you guys think of taking a flier on biedrins? He’s 25 and before Don Nelson broke him he looked like he’d become a damn good 2-way player. We could probably get him for cheapish, and he might blossom under a coach who doesn’t hate big men. He’s got way more upside than guys like Hayes or Collins. On the other hand, he’s been a mess the last two years.
The Hayes Thing
Like many of us I have watched him play quite a bit. Maybe a bit more so because Houston is in the WC.
Anyway IMO Hayes is a media story and as a result has been over-hyped.
’
Houston went from having one of the biggest successful Centers all-time in NBA to a Center who some say is the smallest Center to ever having started in the NBA. Needless to say, the contrast between Yao and Hayes is immense. So this IMO made for a great storyline and ESPN played it to the hilt. The fact that Houston has gotten into the playoffs has also helped the hype machine.
I love Hayes grittiness, but the rest of his game is ho-hum. Sign him for $2.5 to $3.0 million as a replacement for Reggie, fine. If he can play better than that once with the Raptors the Raptors win.
Did his agent lie? Not necessarily but I just can’t get too excited about seeing him in a Raptors uniform. If he is fine, if not I am also fine with that. No biggie here for me one way or the other. That is all.
Mean Greenies Hot For Reggie
ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
RT @gwashburn14: Celtics have reached out to free-agent tough guy Reggie Evans, who said he was “honored” by Celtics" interest
1 hour ago
everyone knows that KG lives in fear of Reggie... best way to solve the problem is to have them working together.
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Next Year
I don’t think this team is going to be good but I don’t think they will be as bad as some hope for. (depending on signings) Last year Barbosa was playing the PG role because Calderon and Bayless was out Evans missed most of the season as did Kleiza. Davis missed the start of the season. Barbosa missed time and many of these players played while hurt. Double D was the only Raptor to stay healthy for the year. I just have a hard time believing that a young team will miss that amount of games this year again. Thus not getting the pick that so many are expecting this comming draft. Last year they dropped two spots in the lottery next year could be even worse.
by Brett Raymond Gill on Dec 2, 2011 9:30 PM EST reply actions
Other Option
Personally, I prefer Greg Oden to someone like Hayes. I recognize that Oden has a lengthy injury history, would cost quite a bit more and plays the same position as Jonas. Theoretically though, we might be able to sign Oden to an offer sheet for around $7 million per year over 3-4 years. I think that the Raptors, to become more than a mediocre team, need to take some significant risks. Provided that Oden has recovered from his latest injury, he has the potential to become a dominant defensive force (Eddie Johnson says he could be the best defensive player in the league: http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/johnson/2011/12/01/the-top-10-centers/). I think it’s possible that we could play him and Jonas at the 4 and 5 and, in any event, we don’t know how Jonas will perform at an NBA level and when he will become a great player (it seems likely that it will take a few seasons). Also, having 3-4 good big men is a good idea. His upside is huge. His downside is likewise huge. This move would either propel us to becoming a much better team or saddle us with an albatross contract (and likely result in the firing of BC). We would need to unload a big man next year if we do this, but I’m not sure if Amir, Davis or Bargs are really necessary future pieces.
according to you
what would keep Portland to match any offer if Oden had recovered? they seem to be the one with access and knowledge. If they were to let him go it would almost certainly mean Oden is damaged good, for good. To a point you would not want to touch him.
I appreciate this is a “I would never date a girl stupid enough to even consider dating someone like me” kind of catch 22, but it is what it is.
Oden
Yes, it’s probable that Portland re-signs Oden. However, they could potentially be scared off by a long contract given his injury history. He is out until January at least this year. Also, Portland is coming close to the luxury tax (if they don’t amnesty Roy) and could go over depending on what they do in free agency. My understanding is that going over the luxury tax has more significant repercussions under the new CBA (it’s still dollar for dollar for the next couple of years, but I believe the repeat offender penalties start being calculated from this season forward).
I would think that Portland tries to re-sign Oden or would match an offer, but we don’t lose much by trying to sign him. I think he’s one of the only true potential difference makers in this free agent class and he’s 23 years old.
this is logical, but there is also the “sunk cost” mentality-even if he might be completely healthy, portland may find they just don’t want to spend any more on him because of the risk.
saying that, I don’t want him anywhere near our team.
by Justin Azevedo on Dec 7, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Franchise! As you know, I’m a huge fan of the HQ, but I don’t get why Hayes would be a a good addition. Sure, his per minute rebounding numbers are good, but there is a reason why he hasn’t got extended minutes…
Plus, why add another big to Toronto’s already crowded front court? This season they will roll with a three man rotation of Ed Davis, Bargnani and Amir Johnson. Why add somebody else to that mix that is vertically challenged? Throw into the mix that this time next year they will have Yonas and he will need minutes.
If BC is going to spend money then he should look at adding some depth to the SF position…
Because currently the team does not have a NBA caliber center on the roster (depending on your feelings about Alibi). Unfortunately the team is going to ram Barney down our throats at PF which means that we need someone who can rebound and play center and that is allegedly Hayes. Whether you agree that it is a good idea or not is debatable but that is the logic being used here.
Also, NBA teams don’t go with “5’s” anymore or those all five position slots. Teams now generally roll out two bigs, two wings and a distributor.
Chuck Hayes is a Defensive anchor at the 5-spot. Something this team lacks in the same way that a pus-filled-wound needs medical treatment. Simmilar reason why we need a SF who can defend the perimeter and rebound like a beast (amongst others).
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Hayes Match-Up Results in 2010-11
Significant Wins
===
M. Gasol – 2
Amare – 1
Blake – 1
LA – 1
Okafor – 1
Significant Losses
===
D. Jordan – 3
B. Lopez – 2
D. Cousins – 2
A. Jefferson – 2
P. Gasol – 1
Dirk – 1
Dalembert – 1
Duncan – 1
D. Blair – 1
T. Chandler – 1
A. Horford – 1
Okafor – 1
A. Blantche – 1
B. Wallace – 1
Amare – 1
those stats don't surprise me... but I like how DeAndre Jordan sticks out. If you ever wanted a young, athletic C - he IS the guy... look at the prices you have to pay those players though...
Chuck Hayes definately has a defensive skill set the Raps could use – on a long term basis.
at maybe 8pt 8 reb he will come cheaper than dalembert minus the swat-fest gambles that Dalembert takes…
If we had the luxury DeAndre Jordan would look great next to AMir and Ed. Is it going to happen? Doubt it…
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
you are basing that on
perhaps the worst stat that exists in basketball – NBA efficiency rating.
Marginally better than PPG for judging defense.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 3, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Hayes Is A Decent Enough Defender
against shorter less talented players, but at 6"6" he just has a hell of a time trying to guard taller Centers.
Like I said.
I am okay with the Raptors trying to add him to their roster for $2.5 – $3.0 million and may the better players get the most minutes.
It’s not like Hayes is a bum or anything. He is a solid NBA player who can’t shoot worth sheet.
The good thing though is that Center is probably the weakest offensive position in the NBA as a whole. Sure there are some monsters out there but most players who play there are not good shooters and are terrible at free throws and thus you don’t have to do much to guard them. That is probably what is the most maddening about Barney. If he put even half the effort on d that players like Hayes he would actually be okay.
BC In Attendance Today at NC vs KY - Starting Now
No Sullinger today.
MKG Went Up and Up on 2012 Mock Draft Boards Yesterday
eturning to the court vs NC yesterday after separating his left shoulder.
Not only is he talented, but aggressive and a real gamer.
Amazing that with a separated shoulder he was still in there among the tall trees battling for and getting rebounds.
Barnes would fit the raps very well but dont sleep on Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, he may end up
beinf the better player in the long run.
MKG Impressed Me Yesterday
He plays hard and aggressive
He also re-entered the game after separating his left shoulder and played solid minutes with the separated shoulder. He was even in among the tall trees fighting for and getting rebounds with the separated shoulder.
Tough kid, impressive.
However, my favorite NCAA basketball freshman this year is Adonis Thomas. I love this kids attitude and skill level. He has started slow at Memphis having to play behind Willie Burton their best player. He is averaging 11 ppg in about 20 some minutes.
Yesterday he was 5 of 6 on three balls and is now 10 – 17 on threes for the season. He already has an NBA body can play the two and the three.
However, it wouldn’t surprise me if he stayed one more season with Memphis unless he can crack the starting lineup.
According to Sam Amick from Sports Illustrated:
According to sources, Nene, Chandler and Gasol all set their early asking prices in the neighborhood of maximum-contract territory, starting at $14.8 million for Gasol, $17.7 annually for Nene, and $20.7 million for Chandler. There is plenty of crossover in their respective lists of salary-cap-friendly suitors, with the Nets, Rockets and Warriors appearing to be the hungriest shoppers, and the Pacers and Trail Blazers strolling the big man aisles as well. The Nuggets are hoping to hold onto Nene, but it remains to be seen at what price since he is an unrestricted free agent.
just wait till its the Raptors who dole out that kind of $$$ + 2 first round picks for Gasol.. (i joke - at least I hope I'm joking)..
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Buyout For Valanciunas Coming Shortly?
See article below by Chad Ford
Maybe BC has decided it would be better to try and fork over several million for a buyout of Jonas now rather than enter into the crazy bidding war.
Given the low expectations for the Raptors in 2011-12 having Jonas play for the Raptors this season makes a lot of sense to me.
Unless the rules are changing in the new CBA, the Raptors can only contribute $500k to a buyout. At least that is my understanding. That is why it took so long for Rubio to come over as he had to foot the bill himself.
Well, that is true because he will be on a rookie sale contract. However, the team can restructure his contract to front load 20% of his entire rookie contract salary as a signing bonus. That way, he’d basically receive a 3 million dollar advance to help pay his buyout.
by dhackett1565 on Dec 4, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
wow those contracts
are out of sight.
I thought one of those guys might get 14-15 and that would be the highest of the three. 12-13 on average for them.
But Chandler and Nene at near max dollars? Assuming thats true…. my god….
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 3, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
god would only be eligible/capable of getting the veteran minimum these days....
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
Valanciunas to play in NBA this season?
More on link
Dec 3 4:33 PM ET
By Chad Ford
ESPN.com
The Toronto Raptors drafted Jonas Valanciunas with the No. 5 pick in the 2011 NBA draft knowing it would be at least a year before he came to the NBA.
The source said that the team reached out to Valanciunas’ agent over the weekend to gauge the center’s interest in joining the Raptors in 2011-12. If Valanciunas has interest, the Toronto would have to work out a buyout with his team in Lithuania, Lietuvos Rytas.
Valanciunas does not currently have an NBA buyout for this season in his overseas deal, but things have changed for Lietuvos Rytas over the past five months. They failed to qualify for the Euroleague this season and the team will likely lose critical sponsorship money. Given the current situation, they need money more than Valanciunas.
Does the Lithuanian center want to come to the NBA this season? Valanciunas told NBA teams prior to the draft that he felt he needed at least one more year in Europe to get stronger and play more minutes at the highest level before coming abroad.
But the Raptors believe Valanciunas may be better served by joining the NBA now. The 19-year-old big man spent the entire summer and fall playing in Lithuania, giving him valuable experience. He showed what he was capable of in U-19 play, averaging a tournament-high 23 points, 13.8 rebounds and 3.2 blocks per game to lead Lithuania to the gold medal. Against Team USA and Florida’s Patric Young, a projected first-rounder in 2012, Valanciunas had 30 points, 15 rebounds and four blocks.
Buyout
Under the old CBA the max that the Raptors could contribute toward a buyout was $500,000. I don’t know what it is under the new CBA.
Jonas would make $2.9 million pro-rated with the Raptors this season if he came over.
So even if he had to fork over say $2 million of his own money to get a buyout done he would still come out in the black financially for the 2011-12 season.
Casey Must Have Been Really Impressed
with Jonas’ play when Casey was in Europe. He says as much in the recent interview on NBA.com
I sure hope BC can find a way to bring him over for 2011-12 even though he probably is not ready to contribute big minutes in a positive way.
If BC can’t get Jonas for 2011-12 could BC make a push for Kwame and/or Dalembert for say a one or two year deal?
AndreaBargnani Andrea Bargnani
just finished working out….love the new floor in the practice court #fb
1 minute ago
finally MAS11'S WET DREAM HAS COME TRUE
His job is now cleaning the floor….
I think the fact that you are saying it, probably makes it even sweeter.... I think its pretty freakin' hillarious
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
a oke is a jokej
nothing and nobody is untuchable…..
tblets are not made for typinga
I meant “a joke is a joke”
Interesting Rumour (or fact)
Apparently Adam Morrison has regained his interest in actually playing basketball. If he could be had for cheap (and I believe he can be signed for less than 2 million per season considering his history) I think it might be an interesting idea to offer him a 1 or 2 year contract (maybe 1 year with a team option). Its a completely low risk high reward option at the 3 where if he doesn’t work out the team can always buy his cheap contract out and spread it over 7 years (assuming the rumours of this option are true in the new CBA) or just eat it cause he cannot command a lot of money. If he works out then the Raptors get a cheap rotation player for a few years until they draft someone else if not who cares its not a long term commitment. If he wants more than 2 million then I say let him go somewhere else.
That was before he spent a year in Europe. Lets be serious here, I do not think Morrison was ever going to get much play on a team like LA. The reality of that deal is they had to take Morrison to get Shannon Brown and get rid of Radmonavic.
I’m all for exploring all options, but I think this roster already has enough guys on it that are supposed to be good offenisve players – but aren’t really that good – and don’t do anything else.
That is why it would have to be an inexpensive short term contract. The team needs depth this season and its a no-lose situation. If he plays well, they get some help on the wing. If he is terrible, the team is out some money and we get more balls in the lottery. The only way it hurts us is if he is really good and carries the team to 30 plus wins in which case we are screwed but I dont see that happening so……
Raptors Out Of Major Free Agent Races?
According to Marc Stein from ESPN:
View the story “Raptors saving cap space for next season” on Storify]
Toronto was one of those teams that woulda loved to get in Marc Gasol mix. But hearing now Raps prefer to roll cap space into next summer
Marc Stein 21 hours ago
Tyson Chandler another C that Raps initially planned to chase, given Dwane Casey’s defensive bent and how he’d fit next to Bargnani. BUT …
Marc Stein 21 hours ago
TOR would need to amnesty someone to have enough cap space to get into race for top Cs. Teams told now they have no shot at RFA Gasol anyway
I Think It Could Be Tied Into The Raptors Trying To Get Jonas for 2011-12
Jonathan Givoney (sic?) of DraftExpress says according to sources which he didn’t reveal this will not happen. But then Givoney was hot for the Raptors to draft Kemba “chuck it up” Walker. I just have a feeling Givoney doesn’t want to see Jonas in a Raptors uniform as some form of redemption for him because the Raptors did not draft Walker like he said they would..
If the story that Lietuvos Rytas lost a major financial backer is true they will need the money. Jonas’ rookie contract would be $2.9 million for 2010-11. I don’t recall if the salaries are being prorated for the shorter season or not. In any case even if the limit that the Raptors can contribute to a buyout is still $500,000 there still may a way that a deal to get Jonas with the Raptors for 2011-12 would be possible.
One thing I can say with pretty good certainty is that if Jonas does play for the Raptors in 2011-12 it will prepare him a lot better for the 2012 Olympic games in London. This would obviously be a big plus for the Lithuanian Olympic team.
Why I love Bill Simmons:
“I’d rather chop Calderon’s $20.3 million. I’m pretty sure paying eight figures a year for a backup point guard isn’t getting you anywhere with a harder cap. Although really, they should see if they can use the clause on Bryan Colangelo — that’s the worst single Raptors contract, right?”
I love Jose, but feel Bayless deserves a shot at the run of the team...
So this post is BANG on and hilarious all at once…
"the Truth"
Raptors Interested in Chuck Hayes DeAndre Jordan? Let’s Hope So.
Sean Deveney, of Sporting News, noted in his Twitter feed that Los Angeles Clippers center DeAndre Jordan has enough suitors to make the Clippers nervous. He lists the Toronto Raptors, Minnesota Timberwolves, Indiana Pacers, Golden State Warriors and New Orleans Hornets as teams with interest.
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