Tip-In: Raptors' Comeback Falls Short; Drop One Point Preseason Match to Celtics
by Adam Francis on Dec 19, 2011 8:01 AM EST
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The HQ's Scott Campsall breaks down the Raptors first match of the 2011-12 season, a preseason game that saw them come up just short to the Celtics...
Well, the first Raptors preseason game is in the books and the initial impression is that it had all the looks and feels of an exhibition game.
Both teams struggled with their shot-39.4% for Boston and 38.4% for Toronto-and looked rusty on offense, committing a combined 37 turnovers-21 of which were committed by the Raptors.
The sloppy play was to be expected. It is after all, the first NBA game in about 8 months for most of these players; preseason or not, the first few games of this year are going to be rough on most teams.
Sloppiness aside, the Raptors actually looked impressive in a couple of areas of their game; the most obvious of which was on defense.
The defense came up big in the fourth quarter as the Raptors made a comeback from down 61-51 at the end of the third quarter to eventually leading the game 75-74. The lead didn't last long though, a Greg Stiesma layup put Boston up for good 76-75. In this one the outcome wasn't all that important. What was important was the way Raptors played on defense.
The Raps looked committed on the defensive end of the floor from the opening tip on. They began the game by forcing a Rey Allen turnover and never really let up the rest of the way. The team compiled 8 blocked shots and looked comfortable in their defensive rotations. This is something we have not seen from this team in quite some time, and was a breath of fresh air for Raptors fans that have suffered through the defensive efforts of the last few seasons.
The defense itself was nice to see, but it is representative of a point much more important to the team; and that is they seem to be buying what head Coach Dwane Casey is selling. Casey has been preaching defense from day one on the job and up until this point it was all talk. But today, the team showed that at the very least, they are taking Casey's words to heart. It is still too early to tell, but based on game number one it seems like things are already headed in a positive direction.
The man of the hour certainly is Dwane Casey, but in terms of players Andrea Bargnani is a close second. Bargnani's offensive numbers-4-14 shooting for 16 points-weren't great, but those will come once he gets used to giving maximum effort on both ends of the floor. However, today those aren't the numbers that matter.
For Bargnani his performance on the boards, highlighted by a 5 rebounds third quarter, was huge. Bargnani tallied 9 rebounds in total and showed a willingness to get involved inside and fight for rebounds; a welcomed sign for a guy that is widely considered one of the softer players in the league.
Defensively Bargnani was also impressive, showing that he has the ability to rotate and provide adequate defense both individually as well as within the team concept. If Bargnani can put in this kind of effort defensively, and on the boards on a nightly basis, we may begin to see the Andrea Bargnani everyone hoped the team had drafted with the number 1 overall pick in 2006.
Rebounding was another big positive for the Dinos in this one. They outrebounded the Celtics 39-35 which included standout rebounding performances by Ed Davis who had 10, and Amir Johnson who grabbed 5 boards, in addition to the aforementioned 9 by Andrea Bargnani. Rebounding is an area where the team showed improvements last year, and without Reggie Evans this year, is going to need extra efforts from guys like Bargnani, Johnson and Davis in order to maintain that level of rebounding prowess.
As mentioned above, the Raptors struggled offensively. This is true for the majority of the team but there were a few bright spots. One of the more obviously positives was the three point shooting of Demar Derozan. Derozan made both of his three point attempts and looked confident in doing so. This is a good sign considering he made all of 5 three pointers on 9% shooting from behind the arc last season. Making that three point shot is the next step in Derozan's development; if he can do this consistently, then the Raptors offense is going to look a whole lot different this season.
It is true that the Raptors showed promise in a number of areas during yesterday's game, yet they still fell short despite playing against Boston's bench for the majority of the second half. If game one of the preseason is any indicator of how the Raptors will fair this season, there may not be many wins, but internal improvement and defensive respectability are definitely within reach.
SCOTT CAMPSALL
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My apologies in advance for bringing this up but
In regards to Bargnani, assessment of his performance will be better done after about 20 regular season games. To most of your regulars on this site, I am one of the “apologists” but I have always been of the mindset that the biggest problem with the Bargani situation has been the lack of balls in discipline by the coaching staff. If Tony Soprano were to tell Bargs to play defence, he would play defence, it’s a matter of motivation. It is also a matter of teaching and force of personality. Bargnani should have had more pride in himself up to this point but in the absence of that, teaching and discipline on the part of the coaching staff has been the missing ingredient. I dispise the hate that some have shown toward this young man and I hope that this coach can impose his will and good teaching techniques to make him the success he can be. There seems to be an early indication that maybe, just maybe he has.
Your analogy is not exactly accurate because if everyone did what Tony told them to do he wouldn’t have had to whack his nephew Christopher. The NBA is filled with people who never realise their potential because they would rather try and get by on their talent then actually work at it and improve. Most prospects miss more so because of this than that the scouts were completely wrong.
You are right
However his improvement and mobility started before the season. Those who bothered to watch the European championship have already mentioned AB looked quite slimmed down, way more agile and reactive, and way more engaged on D. Likely and hopefully the change, if sustained, has to do to more than one factor, it possibly have to do with maturity, to a different physical condition (I have yet to see the one who were oh so sure AB would show up like Shawn Kemp , eat some crow) and to a different coach. Seeing it will be believing. One thing is proven, in my opinion. He can, so he should be held accountable if he doesn’t.
Agree
I was going to make that exact comment – Andrea has ticked up his energy level a bit, starting with Italy last summer. You have to wonder if there will be some cost with his shooting percentage though.
At the end of the day, the test for Bargs will be playing with energy game in, game out and we’ll have to wait and see about that…
I don't think
alot of people will disagree with your assessment (or atleast agree with it in part).
The coaching has, unquestionably, had a part to do with it. Last year especially. I think it goes even beyond that though and its been the organizations (ie. BC) treatment of him (ie. treating him like he was a franchise player well before he showed any indication of him showing that ability) thats had the most negative impact on him.
There are 2 main reasons people get a promotion (using that loosely in this sense) or a raise. 1) a reward for services rendered so far 2) incentive to improve their level of work. If the organization gave Bargnani his extension because of 1) well that was simple foolishness on their part. He had yet to do anything to ‘deserve’ it. If they did it for 2) then he has yet to live up to his part of the bargain.
At the same time he is a grown man who is responsible for his own actions and is a player going into his 6th year in the NBA. He is no rookie, he has been given opportunities, he has been given many different levels of experience (off court, on court, coaches (both head and player), different teammates and different levels of responsibility). At some point the team is taking too much away from the rest of the team in order to continue to assess where Bargnani stands.
(To me, that point was reached last year. Had the team not signed Amir, drafted Ed and then Val, and had Demar not shown any positive steps (although marginal)… perhaps it would be slightly different, perhaps not).
I’m not sure that anything short of the better part of a season will really tell us where Bargnani is, and where he is willing to be going forward. Bargnani’s biggest issue is shown he can/will maintain a consistent level of effort, fight, toughness etc. Nobody doubts he has most of the skills and size he needs to suceed. Everyone has seen it in games and for stretches.
To me its not only a question of what the coaching staff can do, but can Bargnani maintain that. 20 games after 350+ is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 19, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
I would argue
that the extension was a hedge against having to pay him more. It probably saved them money signing him when they did, considering the contracts doled out since his signing.
Consider how much weight loss improved Marc Gasol’s game (conveniently timed for a contract year).
If the mandate concerning Bargnani was to force him to play centre at a weight that took away from his game then it is a failing of both the organization and the player for mishandling the situation.
Colangelo made statements leading into last year about Ed and Amir playing on the floor at the same time. I always took that as his articulating a willingness to let Bargnani go. One could argue that the last year’s post season press conference about playing Bargnani in his natural position was salesmanship by someone who wanted to maximize a trade asset.
I have full confidence that once Ed shows this year to be ready for a full starting role, Bargnani will be either used as an accelerator in the building process, flipped for assets, or be convinced to assume a different role on the team with an eye toward championship contention.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Dec 19, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
it might be
that it was a hedge against paying him more, but it was still outside the realm of what he had ‘deserved’ to date. It was, in part though, also $ for potential (which often burns teams in the long run)
As for Colangelo and his post season presser. I said then and I’ll say it now, I’ll believe when I see it. I truelly don’t believe Colangelo will try to move Bargnani, until there is ‘no hope’ (so to speak) left. Which may very well go beyond this year.
My personal prediction… if Bargnani shows major improvement this season he is here to stay (thats what everyone wants right?). If Bargnani shows marginal improvement he is here to stay (gives new ‘hope’). If he shows no improvement the trade waters will be tested but his value will never meet Colangelo’s expectations (BC’s ego is tied to Bargnani atleast at some level). If he shows regression he is here until he is in his final year of his contract (teams just won’t want him). Needless to say, I very highly doubt Bargnani gets moved whether everything changes (for better or worse) or very little does. A different role on this team is the most likely outcome.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 19, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
And completely agree with NSFS’s assessment here too. Just can’t see the team moving Andrea until either BC goes, or something drastic happens (confrontations with coach, Hedo antics etc.)
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 20, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe but
Ed Davis, while a phenomenal athlete, has no offensive moves at all besides putbacks. He could be our version of “The birdman” but even the original birdman is a bench player.
basic
post moves and a jumpshot are probably the two easiest things to learn in the NBA.
I’m more concerned with Ed’s knees having a long term impact than him being a legit NBA starter.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 19, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
really?
Birdmen cannot shoot or do any post move. (just as an example)
he was also
a crack head. I’m not saying everyone can and will do these things, but if they are hard workers they are always achievable.
But his role on the team will also come into play.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 19, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
That's okay too
A rotation of Jonas, Bargs, Ed, and Amir, in whatever combination works could be one of the better ones in the league if everyone buys into their roles, whatever they might be, and for the next little while, that combination exists at a level of cost certainty. The antidote to the Super team era is talented, somewhat interchangeable, depth, with some of that depth being at least all-star caliber. Indiana is building this way and are looked upon favourably, Dallas worked with this.
The wing position has been a glaring weakness for this team for a while and needs to be resolved eventually. PG looks to need an upgrade but I don’t think it has to be a significant upgrade to meet the eventual needs of a team looking to compete for championships.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Funny enough
For this year at least, the best Big man rotation is AB, Davis and Amir (if the raps were playing for winning). Actually I think that Grey and JM were brought in to let the team stay balanced and learn to play around a real C but any team with them playing is not the best team the Raps can put on the floor (as of now)
Not So Friendly
Can’t emphasize enough what a great comment that was in regards to the Bargnani situation. Sums things up very nicely and I too agree that last year was “that year” in terms of proving critics wrong on a number of levels. It’s not like he’s been Jerryd Bayless his whole career, suffering from lack of meaningful PT and stuck behind some of the league’s better players consistently. Some players don’t last in the NBA for 6 years and considering the average NBA career is only about 5 years in duration!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 20, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
Demar
Derozan made both of his three point attempts and looked confident in doing so.
This is a great sign as long as he doesn’t fall in love with the three and stop driving to the bucket
Demar's 3s
It opens up more room to drive to the basket. People started to play off him and give him the long two and take away the drive. He hit the long twos at a rate that wasn’t quite effective enough but wasn’t bad. If those shots were 3s people would guard him and then he can go by them.
Remember how young and raw he was when we drafted him. Look how far he has come and look at him as a senior in college, cause that’s what he is in terms of age. I am excited to see Demar continue to improve.
by defensive rap on Dec 20, 2011 2:55 AM EST up reply actions
Another interesting thought with DeMar – does his ability to shoot 3’s boost James Johnson’s game? He struggles with the long ball but if DeMar starts being a major threat out there, then Johnson can spend more time on the blocks and attacking the rim.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 20, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
And I hate to say it, but Andrea may help as well
If it’s Jose and Demar in the backcourt, and they both shoot well, then JJ won’t be required to hit as many threes to keep the defence honest and when Andrea is at the 4, he can keep the defence honest as well. That’s one thing he can do well for a big man.
The last two years the Defensive teams wings played off the ball and left very little room to drive. We could not spread the floor well on O because they did not come out to guard DD.
Amir developed a reliable two point shot from the 18 foot range and it helped him open up drives to the basket. It also opened up passing lanes for easy layups as the D crashed on him after he hit a couple in a game. I hope the same thing happens to an even greater extent when DD starts shooting 38%+ on threes.
Plus, Forbes may be a player with a lot of upside on the offensive end and hitting shots, we will see. So far, Forbes looks like a baller to me, not just an athlete. Maybe that combo of JJ and Forbes being specialists could work at the 3?
by defensive rap on Dec 20, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Here Is My Analysis Sans Amir
1. Gray was horrible – Boston ran up the score with him on the court and he did very little on offense
2. DeRozan wasn’t much better. Yes he made two corner three’s but as usual his defense sucked allowing way too may open shots and being out of position way too often. He also was unable to get off a good shot at the end with the game on the line
3. Bayless offense and PG skills were terrible – He had more turnovers than assists. SMH. He managed to redeem himself a bit at the end against the scrubs
4. Bargnani tried hard on defense but he was sucking air from the effort and his shooting 4 – 14 showed the results of trying to play defense.
5. Devlin was in mid-season form with his usual over the top hype of his favorite Raptors players.
6. Davis as usual looked smooth but he piled up four fouls in about 20 minutes. His defense was below average and he is still too under weight to be an effective NBA defender.
7. James Johnson blocked four shot but also had four turnovers and his offense was non-existent
8. Barbosa looked pretty good on offense showing the benefit of having played all summer in Brazil where his wife wishes they were now for the holidays.
9. Forbes was good and should earn more playing time.
10. Jamaal looked old, which he is for a NBA player
11. Jose looked like Jose
An entertaining game, if nothing else
Its funny you think Barbosa played well cause I thought he looked like he couldn’t care a less and every time he did something good (steal) he would do something equally bad (turn it back over).
Disagree on Demar, I thought he showed some fight on defense and was much better chasing and fighting through screens (two areas where he struggled last season)>
Agree on Bayless, he was God awful. It was almost painful to watch.
You’re not giving Ed his due. He played very well generally and excelled on the boards. Yes, he still needs to put on weight, but that is not a concern for me, yet.
James Johnson was very impressive on defense.
Why coaching matters
A lot of us have argued about the coaching being a problem for this team for years, not because we could necessarily put our fingers on what the coach at the time was doing wrong but because there were so many occasions when the team didn’t look prepared or the players looked to be underachieving.
I think Dwayne Casey’s arrival and teaching will turn the likes of Ed Davis, Jonas, and the 2012 draft pick into first or second all-NBA type players if the inherent talent is there. He arrived just in time to maybe turn DeRozan into an all-star or near all-star and Bargnani into a really good starter quality player, or someone who will have a long contributing NBA career.
In retrospect, Mitchell may have understood what he wanted his team to do to succeed, and in 2006 when the likes of Parker and Garbajosa were vets who could rely on their EXISTING fundamentals learned from previous coaches, it was enough to make a division championship difference. The problem with Mitchell was he couldn’t teach those fundamentals or translate them in a way that would stick with the young players. Chris Bosh has the tools to be an all world defensive player and some of this was visible in the Olympic year when he played an integral defensive role for the 2008 team. But it is apparent that the Raptors practice sessions and training camps did not reinforce the good lessons. Mitchel might be the type of team that excels with a veteran laden team with the fundamentals already instilled in core players. Some coaches recognize this and thus pick jobs that suit their known strengths.
Ultimately Mitchell being unable to translate his desire to persistent habits in his young players lost him his job, basically the fit for the team, not that he was necessarily a bad coach.
Triano could not teach in ways that translated to persistent habits. We have to acknowledge that he understood the game but it may have been a personality issue. They liked him but did not respect his strategies or the lessons he was trying to impart.
How these coaches empower the assistants and the capabilities of these assistants also matters. I think the opportunity for the coaching staff to spend so much time together before actually having to work with the players may have been very helpful in establishing proper role definition and Casey’s personality might enable some holdovers like Roth to work to their strengths more so than a Mitchell or Triano would have.
In the NBA there are good teaching coaches where you do see signs of progress rather quickly. Hubie Brown strikes me as one of these types and if Casey is of that acumen it bodes well, especially for the younger players on this roster in terms of their having the right habits to play the game to the level their talent allows.
Wednesday will be interesting.
I would argue that this team would be further along had
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
Continuing
I would argue that the team would have been further along if Colangelo had properly identified the type of coach necessary for whatever stage the team was at and hired accordingly. Ultimately this will be his biggest misstep as a GM
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Dec 19, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Lets get real for a second. Mitchell was fired because he wasn’t committed to playing AB not because he couldn’t get the most out his players. If you recall they were like 8-9 when he was fired which is pretty clear indicator that his control of the team was not at a complete end. BC wanted to play AB more and Smitch disagreed with that. END OF STORY.
+ 17 Billion
Mitchelle was fired because he tried to hold Andrea accountable. We know how the next three years turned out…
Teaching Is Important
but if the effort to learn and execute is not there the teaching doesn’t really matter. There are thousands of very good teachers in the North American school systems with lousy students.
But you would hope
That the road to the professional level would have filtered out those who absolutely could not learn.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Dec 19, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Hope Doesn't Get You Very Far
Even effort to learn doesn’t get you very far if you haven’t got the gray matter to learn.
You personally could learn from the best chess players in the world but I doubt that you could ever become a “Grand Master”
Larry Brown was a great teacher. It didn’t show up in Darko.
Don’t get me wrong. It is always better to have a good teacher and good on the fly coach who can make the right in game and end game adjustments. Casey however, failed yesterday in putting the ball in DeMar’s hands at the end of the game. Will DeMar learn from it? It remains to be seen. His defense yesterday still sucked.
I am in a wait and see mode on the teaching and in game and end game adjustments.
u gotta put the ball on Demar's hands at the end of the game, that's what he's there for
He’s our SG of the future. He’s gotta start taking those shots. He’ll learn from everyone he misses.
I remember the days when 6’10 Chris Bosh use to get those last seconds shots and it pissed me off. Guards take the last shot unless u have a special forward who can create off the bounce etc.
Demar had every right to take the last shot and I’d give it to him again and agian bec that’s what your SG is for.
Not DeMar's That Is For Sure
He clearly didn’t produce.
No one could have done worse, since he didn’t do what he was supposed to and that is make the winning bucket.
It wasn’t that he didn’t make the shot that was so bad. Anyone can miss an open shot. It was that he couldn’t even get an open shot. He almost had his butt saved but the clock was not his friend by about one second or less.
Not only didn’t he get a good shot, but he shot it too late for the Raptors to get the rebound and try and put it back in.
DeRozan is being over-hyped like mad. I was in his corner when the Raptors first signed him. However, his defense still sucks rotten eggs. There are too many good shooting #2 guards in the league to have a starting #2 who can’t play at least passable defense.
What is worse is that from watching his his recent interviews I am not optimistic that he has what it takes to be an adequate NBA defender.
Rather than talking to the media so much he should be practicing on the court trying to guard Bayless, Barbosa and even AC one on one. I realize team defense is hard to teach but at least Bargnani made a half effort last night to play team defense.
Buddah ur really over reacting
DeRozan is a 3rd yr project. When he came here we all knew he was an athletic Guard who measured well but needed to define his game. In his first 2 years we’ve seen steady improvement and this was the first game of his 3rd year, give the guy a break if he didn’t get his first “last second” shot off perfectly. This is how you learn. If we’re looking for someone who is an expert in last second shots then we gotta go get Kobe or Durant. Instead we have DeRozan who has to learn how to get that shot off and the only way to learn is to take the shot.
Is he over hyped? Maybe a little but who cares. Does he have flaws in his game? Absolutely but who doesn’t. Is he the best wing prospect we’ve got? YES. So why pick the guy apart because he isn’t as good as Kobe and didn’t execute the last shot perfectly?
I’m perfectly fine with DeRozan’s progress and accept the fact that he’s not good enough to be the superstar we need (not yet anyway). He’s still the best wing we’ve got and I’ll take his 50% shooting including 2/2 from 3 thank you very much.
I've seen this guy play since the draft and he's too skinny man. I don't think he'll do anything in the NBA
unless he gets much much muchhhhhhhh stronger. He’s got some game but after watching numerous games of his since the draft I can’t say I see what all the hype is about. He does have a nice feel for the game and a lot of personality but physically he’s too weak.
the hope is
he will put on size as he ages and works with the team. I don’t doubt he will get bigger/stronger, but I doubt he will end up being as strong as I would, personally, like to see from a C. But everyones body changes (or doesn’t change) differently.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 19, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
He Is Only 19 Years Old
You should take some time and learn about Lithuanian basketball history. Lithuanian’s grow up to become solid like oak trees especially their Bigs. It is in their DNA. Jonas will become plenty strong enough when he grows up. You can bet your family jewels on it.
Raptors 3-D Media Effort
Cute but what happened to “Defense” being flashed on the big screen at the end of the game.
I didn’t hear any loud chants of “Defense” from the Raptors fans yesterday.
The "Defense chant from home fans late in games like yesterday is a common occurrence among basketball fans the world over except maybe in Toronto.
Maybe Casey needs to change the culture of the people who run the big screen at the ACC.
You Must Have Been Hallucinating
which based off of your fanboy photo of Bargnani seems very likely
It wasn’t there at the end. Not like it should have been.
that is not my fanboy photo
is a photo I found on realgm. Joke for joke, maybe I was hallucinating, maybe you were asleep?
Except in TO? Every time I’ve been to a game the fans are as loud in their defense chants as they are when the team scores.
And yes, it was played yesterday. And yes, it will be played into the season. And no, even if they hadn’t played it, I wouldn’t have worried about the “culture.”
by dhackett1565 on Dec 19, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Raps heavily win in that trade. I'd do it but doubt they will
Plus, what are we gonna do with all those point guards. We’d have to send Bayless the other way.
Grizz would need a proper point guard and Vasquez is not it.
Still a good trade for us but leaves Grizz seriously lacking in the PG position. Even they would know Bargs at PF is not enough to sacrifice good PG play, especially when they already have Randolph and Gasol eating major minutes.
Casey Talks About Last Nights Game
1. Said Andrea’s defense was really excellent
2. Opponents FG% is the most important defense stat. Points allowed in the paint is second most important. Didn’t mention anything about rebounding.
It appears that Casey like myself doesn’t think too much of Wins Produced which is significantly distorted in favor of rebounding and puts FG% secondary.
Shooting is the name of the game. Always has been and always will be.
sigh
it doesn’t Budda. FG% is the most influential number with wins produced. Rebounds are second.
Repeating the same thing 100 times doesn’t make it true.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 19, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
James Johnson
IMO JJ has the tools to be pretty special defensively. The blocks were great, but his man to man, deflections and help was pretty solid as well. He’s a bit out of control on offense sometimes, but he has the athleticism to be a factor on that end as well. I may be being a bit of a homer, but he intrigues me quite a bit. I also think he’ll flurish under Casey. Keeping my fingers crossed…
I agree with MAS11
JJ has potential.
I would add that Forbes is intriguing as well.
Wouldn’t it be great if one or both of them helped solve our gap at the 3? Maybe Forbes and him split minutes and one plays with the unit that needs D and the other the unit that needs more O.
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