The Proposed NBA CBA and its Impact on the Toronto Raptors
by Adam Francis on Nov 29, 2011 9:00 AM EST
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Confused about the new CBA and its potential impact on the Toronto Raptors? Have no fear, the HQ brings you the definitive breakdown...
In Grantland's giant testament to their appreciation for the NBA's return posted yesterday, former Ohio State basketball bench-dwellar Mark Titus goes through his top 15 reasons he's excited about the upcoming NBA season.
Amongst them?
-Having to be reminded at least once a month that there's a team in Toronto.
Yes indeed, there is still a team in Toronto, albeit not a very good one considering last season's 22 win campaign.
As we race towards what appears to be a December 9th free agency start date, there will be lots to discuss on the site regarding personnel and team decisions but before getting into any of that, I figured it would be wise to go through what the new CBA is expected to look like, and how it will impact the Toronto Raptors.
To that end, I grabbed Larry Coon's trusty new breakdown, and dug in...
Amnesty provision
This is a biggie. In 2005 you may recall that one player could be waived under the newly negotiated CBA and said player's salary would not count towards the luxury tax.
In the proposed 2011 plan, again a player can be waived but this time, the salary of said player will not only not count against the luxury tax, but won't count against the salary cap either. As well, this amnesty provision can be exercised prior to the start of any season, not just the upcoming one.
This is huge for a team like Toronto.
As noted in previous discussions on the topic, Toronto has some candidates that make sense for the provision (Linas Kleiza, Jose Calderon etc) but there really are no Gilbert Arenases or Rashard Lewises on the roster, and it may make a lot more sense to hold onto this card for a season or two.
Also of interest regarding this rule, "amnestied" players can be acquired by teams with cap room by submitting a bid essentially before said player hits free agency.
So let's use an example here to illustrate the rule from a Raptors' vantage point.
Say Washington decides to use the amnesty provision on Rashard Lewis so he indeed is waived by the team. If Toronto decided they wanted Lewis to add a veteran presence to the team, they could submit a bid then for his services. If Toronto submitted the top bid, say $5M per season whereas Minnesota and Houston bid only $4M, then Lewis would go to Toronto and the Dinos would only be on the hook for $5M of his salary per season, the remainder being paid by Washington.
Minimum team salary
In contrast to the amnesty clause, the new proposed CBA rules regarding minimum salary likely won't have a direct impact on the Toronto Raptors. Unlike teams such as Sacramento and the LA Clippers who in the past have had to take on salary just to make the league's minimum spend levels per team (75 percent of the salary cap under last CBA), the Raps usually spend at a fairly good clip. (In fact in a recent post on SB Nation, Tom Ziller identified the Dinos as a "sober waffle" amongst the league's clubs in terms of spending habits.)
Under the new proposed CBA, that 75% number is being upped to 85% and then 90% in the contract's latter years but the importance in calling it out here is that the higher salary could affect teams' decisions regarding "who to amnesty." Clubs that are close to the min spending thresholds may hang onto players who would look good in a Raptors' uniform, simply to ensure they meet new minimum team salary requirements.
Luxury tax
As you may have read by now, teams will be paying a stiffer penalty in the proposed CBA for going above the luxury tax threshold. Instead of a dollar per dollar tax, starting in 2012-13, teams pay "an incremental tax that increases with every $5 million above the tax threshold ($1.50, $1.75, $2.50, $3.25, etc.). Teams that are repeat offenders (paying tax at least four out of the past five seasons) have a tax that is higher still -- $1 more at each increment ($2.50, $2.75, $3.50, $4.25, etc.)."
For Toronto again, this isn't a major issue as the club hasn't strayed into the league's upper stratosphere of team spending all that often. But this new luxury tax might help TO because some of the league's traditional big spenders, simply won't be able to stomach the stiffer tax, and perhaps not add some of the players they would have in the past. Hopefully this translates into increased opportunities for the Raps to add talent, talent that they may not have had the same access to in years' past.
Attached to the luxury tax talk, we have less benefits for taxpaying teams, looking to add talent. Under the proposed CBA, taxpaying teams now cannot use the biannual exception, have a smaller midlevel exception, can take on less salary in trades, and starting in 2013-14, "teams more than $4 million above the tax level cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade transaction."
These terms of course were put in to help improve competitive balance and as an example of this, a free agent may choose a $5M offer from the Raptors because a tax-paying club like Dallas can only offer $3M.
Stretch provision
This is an interesting one. In the past, the remaining guaranteed salary of waived player was applied to the team's salary cap across the remaining years of the player's contract.
Under the new CBA though, said player's remaining salary and his cap hit "may be stretched across twice the number of seasons remaining on the contract, plus one."
So for example, if the Raptors end up signing someone during this upcoming free agent period to a three year deal, who then pulls a Jason Kapono, they could waive that deal and stretch the salary and cap hit across seven seasons.
This only applies to contracts signed starting under the new CBA (so no go on doing this with Jose or Linas for instance), but it's a huge boost to teams that were previously handcuffed by signing bad long-term deals. (Think Hedo had BC not been able to deal him.)
Midlevel exception
Under the old CBA, the midlevel was five years starting at an average salary of $5.765M with eight per cent raises. Now, as mentioned above, there are two options; one for tax-paying teams, one for non-tax paying teams.
For non-taxpaying teams, the midlevel starts at a $5M base salary with 4.5 per cent annual raises. Contracts can only be four years max.
Tax-paying teams are limited to being able to sign players to three-year deals with only a $3M base salary.
Teams with cap room, meaning they're not only under the luxury tax bar but also the salary cap, can sign players to a new mini midlevel deal for two years starting at $2.5M.
For the Raptors this amounts to protection from more Jason Kapono/Linas Kleiza type deals, as well as another shot at quality talent that perhaps a luxury tax paying team can no longer afford.
A few other notes of interest under the new proposed CBA:
- Cap holds have been reduced for most players who have Bird rights or were first-round picks and teams have three, not seven days, to match offer sheets. This should help promote player movement and allow teams to open up more cap space during the free agent period. it also allows clubs to hold onto underperforming draft picks at lower salaries, something the Dinos probably would have loved to have taken advantage of with Andrea Bargnani.
- New contracts have dropped in length from six years for Bird free agents to five years, and from five to four years for everyone else. Translation: Toronto could have kept Bosh for five years under this new CBA but would have been on the books for a year less with Hedo.
- Also, rookies who meet certain criteria during their first four years (either win an MVP award, make an All NBA team twice, or are All-Stars twice) are eligible to obtain higher max salaries. (What some are calling the Derrick Rose clause.) Hopefully this is something Jonas Valanciunas is eligible for at some point in the near future.
- Players coming off their original, rookie contracts can now be signed to four year, not five year extensions. The exception though is that one "franchise player" can be given the five year extension per team. Again, this is to try and keep stars with small market clubs.
- For trades, taxpaying teams can acquire "no more than 125 percent plus $100,000 of the salaries they trade away (same as 2005 CBA)." Non-taxpaying teams though can acquire "up to the lesser of 150 percent plus $100,000, or 100 percent plus $5 million of the salaries they trade away." Again, the salary matching changes hopefully help player movement and cut down on some of the wacky trades we've seen in the past where players are used as "throw-in's" just to make salaries match.
- If a player is traded and subsequently waived by his new team, said player cannot re-sign with his old team for one year following the trade. You may remember countless examples in the past of players doing this (Big Z in Cleveland, Rasheed in Detroit) since under the old CBA, the time period was only 30 days.
So there you have it.
As noted, the amnesty clause probably has the most immediate impact on the team regarding potential personnel decisions but a number of the other points regarding length of contracts and salary caps will have to be immediately digested by Bryan Colangelo and co before they jump into what promises to be a crazy next few weeks.
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Nice Breakdown
I haven’t really had time to digest all this yet, so reading this to get the key points was nice. This could not have come at a worse time though, I am about to start exams right before free agency starts….shoot me now, I am going to fail them all because I’ll be too focused on free agency etc.
Thanks man…lots of learning over the past few days that’s for sure. And yeah, in many ways this is the WORST time for the NBA to get started up.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 29, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Good look on the breakdown. Can't wait for the season!
Interesting wrinkle regarding the Amnesty clause. So for example, if the Raps amnestied Bargnani and another team picked him up for say $5 mil a season (closer to his actual value) then the Raps would only have to pay the difference (i.e. 4 or 5 mil). This has to make the idea of amnestying Bargnani a lot more palatable for MLSE. Even in a trade scenario, the Raps are more than likely taking back a bad contract. So when you consider the following factors, the amnesty option has to be the best option for dealing with the Bargnani problem:
- Bargnani can’t play centre
- there are already 2 better, younger power forwards on the team with more potential (Davis, Johnson) and trading one of them to make space for Bargnani would be a crime against humanity
- Bargnani’s contract is too expensive for him to come off the bench
-Bargnani’s contract is too expensive for his total lack of production
- Cap space will allow team to be a player in off-seasons to come. Adding that to Jonas, DeRozan, Davis, Amir and our likely top 5 pick this season is a good chunk of "hope" MLSE can sell.
On another note, while the fixes to the system to promote parity may not have gone far enough for fans of markets like Toronto (where players traditionally have shied away from or bolted) they do at least level the playing field somewhat. I was really concerned we were headed to a 4 or 5 super team league (NY, LA, Chi, Dal, Bos) wach with their 3 super stars and 26 "scrub" teams. Hopefully, some of these changes will prevent some of that…
Amnesty & Bargnani
As we differ on AB I’ll try to keep this short. Plus it’s hard to babble endlessly – like some of my past posts – using a tablet.
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dhackett explained it best (and I added some of my thoughts):
- minimum salary levels means we’d need to replace that “lost” amt.
- a new salary could encumber future cap space
- Amnesty can be used next year – why the rush (not that I’d use it on Andrea)
As for the Hedo comment yesterday:
- I wasn’t suggesting we should’ve kept Turk – only that the positive elements of his game would’ve been more help to last year’s team (ball-handling)
- Maybe even more so this year. With a Coach like Casey, Hedo would not have been treated like a baby from Day 1. Who knows how things could’ve turned out.
That said – I prefer Barbosa any day.
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I do enjoy debating with you – just not the constant jabbering over AB. Prefer to get your thoughts on other players, and their roles – with a few assumptions:
- AB will be here all season
- his minutes will be 28 – 33 per game, and
- he’s playing PF
If you can “plot” a season scenario that would make this work – I’d love to here it. Granted – that means stepping out of your belief that he’s not worth it, or it’s not possible. My feeling is – assuming AB buys into Casey’s philosophy – this season will play out with my above assumptions. Can you be anti-Mas1 for one post…… lol …. and play devil’s advocate to yourself.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 29, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Damn it
I would love to Step in but… I DID sign the Manifesto and Hdave’s fines make David Sterns’ one pale……..
I don’t think the whole minimum salary thing is a huge issue as the Raps could just use the $10 mil they are throwing away on Bargnani to sign useful players to fill the 5 (6 when you add Bargnani) open spots they have on the roster. Maybe a few flyers on unproven players on short term deals for some longshot gambles?
However, you do have a point in that the Amnesty can be used next year. So it may make sense to keep Bargnani for the shortened season, leverage his terrible play to pile up losses and gain a good draft pick and then amnesty him after the season. That way, the Raps enter the off-season with a good/great pick, Jonas is coming in, another year under Amir/Davis/Derozan’s belt and a boatload of cap space. I can totally get down with that plan. Would it mean another winter of heavy drinking to get through Raptors games (remember last Jan and Feb where bargnani shot over 50% once in like 15 games! uggghh)? Maybe, but might be worth it…
How many times can the amnesty be used?
When I read the above, it sounded like any team can use it as many times as they like. The cost to the team is dollars that they have to pay out for the amnestied contract less what the winning bidder pays.
If my understanding is correct, the Raptors could amnesty a bunch of contracts. They probably won’t this year as they will need bodies, but they could in following years to clean out dead weight.
Once. The amnesty is to be used once only per team for the length of this CBA.
There is some ambiguity in the wording, even in the preliminary agreement, but just like the no-trade rule for amnesty, it will almost certainly be clarified later.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
clear as mud this agreement is - yoda on the amnesty clause
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
This made my day.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 30, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, one shot deal. Each team gets one use of the clause during the next six years (length of new CBA) and it can not be traded, nor used on a player obtained via trade.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 30, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Happy New CBA
Gotta say, I pretty much agree with you totally – with one crucial caveat. If I understand correctly, the Raps can hold on to their amnesty. With Big Jonas playing overseas this season, I think BC gives Bargnani one last season. This season is likely lost anyway, so why not let Bargnani play his role in securing a top draft pick. If the stars align and Bargnani breaks out, it either helps the Raps win and stays, makes him a more desirable trade chip or at very least earns him a better FA contract-saving the Raps money. If we drop him this year we only have Alibi at C, and it won’t help to sign a FA to a contract when they’ll know they’ll likely be Big Jonas’ back up in a year? Otherwise, yes, I do think BC should use this ‘get out of jail free’ card on one of his biggest projects.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Nov 29, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
There is merit to this approach.
See my response to Rapthoseleafs above.
BTW, as much as I think Amnesting Barney is a good idea in principle, I just do not see it happening for one and two I think they should use it to take someone else’s bad contract plus 1st round pick. This team needs all the help it can get in the draft so racking up draft picks by taking on bad contracts smells delicious to me.
I don’t think you can amnesty a player that you traded for. So don’t think the Raps could get a bad contract and a pick(s) and then amnesty that bad contract. At least, that’s my understanding of the amnesty concept. Can anyone confirm?
No confirmation yet, but Larry Coon seems to think that they will write in a rule stopping this from happening. It was not in the proposal, but will probably be a reality.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
Archibald
Some very interesting points above. Bargs is going to get a blog post to himself over the next week or so as he’s such an interesting piece of this year’s puzzle. Love him, hate him, find him underutilized or overblown, he’s still the team’s marquee guy (with DeRozan being a very close second obviously) and thus a huge question mark for the team going forward.
To that end, it will include some of your thoughts Archibald as I’ve been pondering some similar scenarios given how poor the results of this year could end up being.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 30, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
By The End of 2011-12 Season
Neither will be the Raptors marque player.
JMO
I couldn’t disagree more about free agency. The way I read the CBA I see teams like Lakers, Celtics, Bulls and Heat stealing a sneaky win. Why? Cause the CBA now has a built in cap for ring chasing players of 3 million. If Miami or Lakers are over the Tax they can still sign players but to the lower 3 mil which not only saves them Tax (1.5 × 3 is cheaper than 1.5 × 3) but they can say to the player “Hey we would love to pay you more so you can have a ring but our hands are tied”. The new rules will only effect younger guys who are looking for a payday not aging near retirement vets chasing rings.
I think the point is that because the tax teams can ONLY pay $3 mil it lessens their purchasing power in the market. So non-tax teams can actually significantly out bid them for the mid-level guys. This to me is an obvious loss for the super-teams.
And again I disagree as we have seen historically that players will sign for small dollars (vet minimum’s) just to chase a ring so getting a smaller mid level is not going to phase them. It is why there is no rule that the NBA can put in place to stop every star from playing on the same team if they are willing to take less dollars.
Well, the players who would sign for the vet min have always signed for the vet min. The players who won’t are the ones who insist on a MLE deal, which they won’t be able to offer competitively anymore.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
Only time will tell. As I stated in my first post, players who are looking to get paid will obviously not sign to Tax teams but outside of that anything else goes.
See the trouble Miami is in right now – they need a C, and can probably only get a decent one like Dalembert by offering the full MLE – as such, they will be tight on spending to stay below the tax apron so they can actually use the full MLE.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
Here is a question, what is to stop them from signing Dalembert to the full mid level and then filling out the roster with vet mins and rookie contracts? I mean they can waive Miller already which drags them down to 60 mil. If they maxed Dalembert they would still have 5 mil space to the proposed (what we are guessing roughly to be) tax line of about 70 mil. That is enough to even resign Chalmers if they want.
If they waive Miller they have more room. I think it would be a mistake, but it would give them room.
However, it is not so important that Miami has an out this year, but that they feel they need that 5 million MLE to sign a player they otherwise wouldn’t be able to get. So if they were in the tax, they wouldn’t be able to get him with the 3 million exception. Which was the point.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Great Summary
I hope the fantasy leagues are hard at work modifying their programs to fit the new CBA. LOL
Whether the Raptors will be buyers, sellers or just lookers with regard to Amnesty is of course an unknown.
My guess is that unless the Raptors can find and land someone off the Amnesty Wire they probably won’t amnesty anyone themselves since they have only 10 players currently under contract. Kleiza could be a good possibility for Amnesty depending on how he heals and whether or not he can be productive when he is ready to play.
I don’t see the Raptors using Amnesty on anyone else. Jose is worth more as a trade chip and as I recall he has two years left on his contract. Bargnani won’t get amnesty though I would love to see BC trade him on Dec 9th. LOL
Seriously doubt they amnesty anyone this year – not because of the number of players on the roster, but because the team is already below the minimum salary level. Waiving a player this year will just necessitate signing more big contracts before the start of the season.
I could see the Raps maybe submitting a bid for a waived player – though I doubt that they try to outbid other teams – it’ll be cheap or go home, I think.
Next off-season, the Raps are almost guaranteed to amnesty someone to free up cap space to take a run at Dwight or CP3 if they haven’t been E+T’d yet.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 29, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
They might as well use the cap space to build a rocket and use it to send Barney and BC to Mars. That is more likely to happen then CP3 or Dwight Howard signing here.
BAHAHAHAHA!!!
Was thinking the exact same thing when I read this… I didn’t comment because I thought “dhackett MUST be joking here… he can’t be serious… CAN HE?!?!”
I doubt they land either of those players – but do you really think BC won’t try?
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
No let him try...
It will be worth a few chuckles in July. “Imagine CP3 you and Andrea on the break!” CP3 auto-vomits instantly! LOL
Interesting point
… in the Amnesty clause.
In the proposal, no limitation on waiving a player you trade for is put in place. Perhaps this restriction will be put in later when the deal is finally hammered out in legalese, but for now it is absent. A team can trade for a player, then waive them (sometime in the off-season).
If this turns out to be true, this could have huge ramifications for how the Raps use their amnesty clause.
Currently the only limitation is that the player waived has a contract he signed before the inception of the new CBA.
Just saw a tweet from Larry Coon on that subject:
Rules aren’t finished yet, but word is “no” on this one. RT @pren01: Can a team trade for a player and amnesty them?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 29, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
It's like being backdoored on 'big-brother' .... lol
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
My understanding from a newspaper article (take that for what it's worth)
is that you can only amnesty a player that YOU signed BEFORE the new CBA came into effect. So it’s only for getting rid of your own old mistakes, not for ditching any new ones you might make with new trades or signings.
What are the odds on Hedo getting amnestied by Orlando?
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
are they even able to amnesty him because he signed his contract with TO?
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
They are able to, but they are looking to move him in a trade along with Dwight, keeping the amnesty for later.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Ah – yes. Mind went blank there, but I was sure they weren’t using it on Hedo. Thanks.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
they are looking to move him [Hedo] in a trade along with Dwight,
I’d take the Turk back under those conditions …. lol
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 30, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
That’s like paying Howard an additional $30 mil on top of his max deal… Which is actually STILL worth it!
Superstars are so freaking underpaid. Stupid max salary.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
There Is No Way To Calculate An Accurate Estimate Of A Superstar's Worth
Advanced stats will only go so far. See my PRV for the most accurate calculation of what a player is worth.
However there are no advanced stats anywhere that can determine how much revenue a player generates for a team.
Execllent Breakdown
Raptors looke to be in a good position with this new cba. I recommend we do nothing this off season except bring in Aaron Gray to play C and find 3 or 4 D league players to fill the roster.
A top 5 pick in the next draft will do wonders for this club.
I like this plan…
I’m going to talk about this at length in the next while here but the shortened season scares me. A smaller sample size, and a favourable schedule could mean this team over-performs.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 29, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Gray Generally Holds Is Own In Limited Minutes
How effective he would be upping his minutes from a career of 11 MPG is questionable.
Gray’s foul rate per 36 minutes last season was about 30% higher than Amir’s
I'm hoping to see a combination of Gray, Alabi and Johnson or Davis at the C position
Gray doesn’t have to play big minutes, just start every game and set the tone inside. Alabi should be given a good run to see if he’s got a future in the NBA or if he’ll be playing in China when his contract is up.
At the end of the day tho, we desperately need a top 5 or even top 3 pick in this draft to get this rebuild going. I hope we play exciting and competative ball but lose every single game.
I Don't Think You Want HIm Starting
Amir is a tough enough start at his foul rate of 5.1 per 36 minutes. Gray at 6.5 his number last season would be bad news as a starter.
Every Raptors opponent most likely would be in the 1 and 1 within the first six minutes of the first quarter and third quarter. LOL
I’m all for splitting up minutes at that spot. Ideally you want minutes for the youngsters and a chance to win each game…but losses in the end to propel a top spot in the draft.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 29, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
I Am All For Giving The Most Minutes To The Better Player
on all teams in all leagues everywhere in the world
this is wierd
Totally agree, Give Amir and Ed plenty of minutes at PF- their natural position. If Bargs wants to play PF he has to outperform those two as a PF – won’t happen. He can however outperform Alibi and probably Gray as well at the C position. Hopefully he’ll play like Il Mago, score loads and increase his worth to the Raps or otherwise.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Nov 29, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Davis
My thoughts on Davis are that his most opportunistic future, is as a Centre. His father said guaranteed that Ed would add 20 lbs for this season. NBA had Ed @ 6-10 215 lbs. Noah is 6-11 232 lbs.
As for Amir, I believe he’s best suited as a PF off the Bench. I don’t see AJ as ever being a Starter on a play-off team.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 29, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
According To One Las Vegas Website
Raptors have the longest odds of winning the NBA title in 2011-12
They are in a three way tie with the Pistons and T-Wolves at 200-1. No team other than those three are longer than 100-1.
That seems about right on paper. But who knows, maybe Detroit or Minny click as I’d argue they at least have a better talent level than TO.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Nov 29, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Nine Steps Leading Up To and Including Opening Camps
from Larry Coon via Twitter
1) Lawsuit dismissal
2) Re-certify union
3) League recognize re-certified union
4) Negotiate final understanding for CBA
5) Both sides vote
6) Draft & proofread.the agreement, work out any details that come up
7) Sign agreement
8) Open for business
9) Play basketball
…
Tyson Chandler Interested In Signing With The Raptors?
Toronto Raptors
Chandler wants to win, but he also wants to get paid. And if he has any hope of making close to the $12.6 million he earned last season, he’s going to have to look at a team like Toronto. According to Eric Koreen of the National Post, Chandler would be "a perfect free-agent candidate, especially considering he and [Dwane] Casey formed a relationship in Dallas." If you remember, Chandler actually confirmed to Yahoo! Sports last summer that he was being traded to the Raptors as part of a three-team deal that eventually fell through. With Casey preaching defense, Chandler would be the perfect fit.
read the whole article here
ESPN Insider mentioned Toronto as a possible landing spot for Chandler recently as well...
Hey, I love the idea of Chandler being a Rap, but does it make sense to give Chandler a near max deal when we have the supposed “Lithuainian Wilt Chamberlain” coming in next season?
IMO Jonas Is A Long Way From Being A Productive NBA Starter
On top of that I believe and I could be wrong, Jonas still has an option to play out his contract with LR which would mean he wouldn’t be with the Raptors until 2013-14.
Chandler is available now. Which could mean two seasons of Chandler before Jonas even puts on a Raptors uniform. At that time he would still be only 21 and I doubt ready to be an impact starter in the NBA.
Chandler is 29. So you sign him to a four year deal with a fifth year option if the new CBA will allow that.
The question is:
If the Raptors sign Chandler what do they do at PF? ISTM that Amir would be the most tradeable Raptors PF among Davis, Bargnani and Amir.
I doubt that the Raptors would carry all three along with Chandler. Pay Amir $5.5 million to be the fourth big on the team in terms of the depth chart? Play Amir ahead of Davis and cut Davis minutes? Neither seems like a smart move to me.
Maybe a sign and trade with Dallas sending Bargnani to them. Remember the allowable salary difference will be 140% in the new CBA so a sign and trade of Bargnani for Chandler deal would work.
That would certainly be interesting watching Bargnani and Dirk playing alongside one another. LOL
Chandler is 29. So you sign him to a four year deal with a fifth year option if the new CBA will allow that.
The new CBA will not allow that. The Mavs can do that (without the option part). The Raps cannot.
Maybe a sign and trade with Dallas sending Bargnani to them. Remember the allowable salary difference will be 140% in the new CBA so a sign and trade of Bargnani for Chandler deal would work.
The salary difference is 150% or 5 million, whichever is less, and 125% for tax teams.
Jonas will come over next year – his buyout has already been agreed to. Renting Chandler for a year at the ridiculous price he’ll demand (probably need in excess of 13 million a year to get him away from Dallas) seems ill-conceived at best.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 29, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Don't Agree At All
1. So it is three years or whatever. If its three years it is better for the Raptors.
2. So what is your point on the percentage? None relevant to the discussion. Chandler will make more than Bargnani. Bargnani will make $9.25 million in 2011-12. 50% of that plus $100K is $4.75 million which is less than $5.100,000. That means that the Raptors can pay Chandler $14 million in the first year of his contract. No way he gets $14 million for 2011-12. or even demands it in my opinion. So again your point is irrelevant to this discussion
3. Jonas has said that he may stay another year. He said this well after the draft. You might want to try and follow some of the Lithuanian basketball websites.
Sorry you lose this one all the way around.
breaking down changes in new CBA
New labor deal could mean much heftier luxury taxes for big spendersCoon By Larry Coon
• 2011 CBA: Taxpaying teams can acquire no more than 125 percent plus $100,000 of the salaries they trade away (same as 2005 CBA). Non-taxpaying teams (based on their post-trade salary level) can acquire up to the lesser of 150 percent plus $100,000, or 100 percent plus $5 million of the salaries they trade away. The cash a team pays or receives in trade is limited to $3 million annually.
1. It is 4 years. The Raptors cannot offer the fifth year, which Dallas can. Which was my point.
2. I was just telling you the numbers. Of course the deal would work. I never said otherwise.
3. Link? Considering your insistence on them.
My point is that the Raptors, to convince Chandler to leave his championship team, with a chance at another championship this year, with an ownership that will likely match any offer he gets (within reason) and can offer him one more guaranteed year at that amount, would have to offer something ridiculous to convince him to come play C for one of the worst teams in the league. And whether that 14 million is enough to be considered ridiculous by you is not the question – does Mark Cuban consider it too much?
Oh, and it is $5 million even, not $5.1 million, just for reference sake. The $100,000 buffer applies to the 150% case, not the $5 million case.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 29, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
I think you are both right and wrong cause you are misunderstanding each other. Chandler can be signed to a 5th year in the sign-n-trade scenario (at least that is my understanding) so you are both right. Now kiss up and make better.
No, he can’t. Sign and trade rules have been adjusted so that a player being S+T’d does not get a Bird contract. The contract terms in a S+T are exactly the same as if the player signed with the team outright.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
Well I havent read the entire CBA so there was no way to know this for sure. The good news is that Chandler loves White Vegas and that is all that matters.
I have, and there is a way to know for sure.
The maximum contract length for a sign-and-trade is 4 years, and maximum annual increases are 4.5%.
Ah, White Vegas. Well played, sir, well played.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe If You Have A Problem With The Article From Dime
You should contact them and tell them they are full of it.
I would rely on them before relying on your opinion.
Just saying.
I have no problem with the article at Dime. They may print what they wish, and if I were a part of that community I would comment there.
I had a problem with your assertion that their suggestion was realistic and positive movement for the Raptors, and voiced my opinion. I’m not sure what the problem with that is.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 29, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Just had a chance to read "Grantland's giant testament to their appreciation for the NBA's return"...
And was reminded by Jonathan Abrams about one of the best things to happen to the NBA since Chuck joined TNT. Saquille O’Neil joining TNT!
This just made me giddy! Can’t wait to watch the TNT crew play another round of “Who he play fo” after this crazy free agency period!
“Shaquille O’Neal: Analyst
What I’m most looking forward to has nothing to do with any player or team: It’s Shaquille O’Neal starting his second career (or fifth, if you count his subpar acting, subpar rapping, and law enforcement ventures) by joining TNT as an analyst. I am convinced no NBA insider knows where the bodies are buried with greater accuracy than O’Neal. Pair him up with Charles Barkley for an entire season? I am positive there will be some NBA tidbits we did not know before — and probably didn’t want to know”. — Jonathan Abrams
It is nice
to finally be back to REAL basketball.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Nov 29, 2011 4:49 PM EST reply actions
According To The Boston Hearald
The Raptors two pre-season games most likely will be with Mean Greenies.
Toronto most likely preseason opponent for C’s
Though the league has not set up its preseason schedule, and is not expected to release the revised regular season schedule until next Tuesday, a league source said today the Celtics are most likely facing exhibition competition from north of the border.
The NBA will strictly adhere to a geographical plan when pairing up teams for a two-game exhibition series. Considering that the Knicks and Nets are expected to compete in a home-and-home series that allows for cheap bus rides, the source said the Celtics’ most likely destination will be Toronto.
Pussies (The Greenies)
Can’t they start the season with They would not dare to start the season with real opponents could they?…. Oh… wait….
Good to see that the NBA is promoting amateur basketball by having one of the elite of the NBA play a semi-pro team in preseason.
It’s like those Euro pre-season games! The NBA has such a great outreach program.
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
Take This For What It Is Worth
complete story on link
Bargnani starting to get it
By Ryan Wolstat ,Toronto Sun
First posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 08:54 PM EST | Updated: Monday, November 28, 2011 08:59 PM EST
TORONTO –
Andrea Bargnani doesn’t want to talk about it, but the big man is in great shape as the season finally approaches.
Quietly, Bargnani, who has been knocked in the past for not always being the first player to arrive in the gym and the last to leave, has been in Toronto for the past few weeks undergoing vigorous individual workouts.
Coming off of a season where he averaged a career-best 21.4 points per game but somehow saw his rebound rate fall and his blocks per game drop in half, it seems Bargnani knows he will have to hit the ground running with new head coach Dwane Casey.
Casey is a defensive taskmaster and the relationship between the two should be fascinating.
Bargnani has been put through the paces by former Guelph Gryphons star Kyle Julius of A Game Hoops and former NCAA Division I assistant coach Mike Mennenga.
Two A Game clients — Holland Landing’s Kevin Pangos and Pictou N.S. native Bryson Johnson — have each nailed nine threes in an NCAA game so far this season.
According to a source present or with knowledge of all of Bargnani’s workouts this month, the big man has dropped some weight and is moving extremely well.
Till I see it this is BS
Andrea has been way slimmed down and way more agile since this summer for the European tournament, I guess it is just a case of Ryan Wolstat having been watching NHL re – runs the whole summer and woke up just now… unless Andrea has slimmed down even further which is possible although improbable.
What I do find possible is that, again, together with the Raptors management, they decided to have him slim down to play the same style of play of when he came over. He was made bulk up by the Raps with the hope he could play C to let #4 play PF. That did not work out well and this alternate plan could give us back a different player hopefully better on D
However this would deprive the competition on the best “couch potato” physic among the players, of this forum sole favorite…. :)
I will repeat this statement.
Amir Johnson will be making 7million in two years and that is WAY TOO MUCH FOR HIM! We have him and Davis and very few teams (if any) in the history of the NBA have won playing two 6’9 players with limited range. So as much as we all love the blue collar players they are mediocre, and please do not pull out the wins produce with Johnson vs players earning so much, his pay is going to keep going up.
AB was the 6th highest scoring PF/C in the NBA last year, is he a center NO! but lets play him with a real C and see how he does before we give him away for nothing. He also makes only an avg of 11million while the only other player in the top 20 for scoring (not in rookie contract) who makes that little is Ellis.
As much as we all love to blame Bargnani for everything we have a roster with Bayless, Weems, James Johnson and Alabi who were cast offs but played significant minutes for the Raptors. Our big FA acquisition was Kleiza, who was out most of the year.
For all the people hating on Bargnani, is the rest of our roster even comparable to the Orlando Magic without Howard, (but they get bashed) or the Cavs without Lebron James, is AB either of those guys? NO! but the rest of our roster is MUCH MUCH weaker than either of those two teams without their stars, so while it may make people feel better to blame AB, get real. This whole roster is flawed but AB brings a skill that you need which is shooting, does he need to get better YES and he has been. He just has not improved his D and boards so we focus on that and forget the rest of his game, what happens if those areas improves this year but we have another bad year as a team?
Amongst my ramblings the point is this, since we have made him our franchise player we have given him no one to play with and force him to play C when he is clearly a PF. Jose Calderon is our next highest paid player and do we really want to start on his flaws? If anything BC has done a poor job of filling out the rest of our roster and needs to get a true C in this year to see what AB can do as a PF with Casey and if it doesn’t work then trade him but at least give him a chance to succeed.
“but the rest of our roster is MUCH MUCH weaker than either of those two teams without their stars,”
Toronto was better than Cleveland last year without Lebron. Orlando without Dwight? We’ll find out in not to long. But I’d take the Raps roster going forward over Orlando’s without Dwight. (people seem to forget just how good these superstars are. I remember the media and fans thinking Cleveland would make the playoffs last year…. clearly they were mistake. Orlando right now without Dwight? That could easily help push Toronto out of the bottom 5).
This year is pretty much another write off (much like last year was). Its about how the team looks and who are the right players going forward. I don’t think anyone expects Amir/Ed to be the starting 4/5 long term. Ideally one would be the starting PF the other the back up.
As for Bargnani. Yes the roster is flawed, but so is he. Thats always been the issue. The idea of building a roster around him with such obvious problems rebounding and playing defense is simply asking to start with your hands tied. And NO ONE forgets to focus on the rest of his game…. man how people never stop focusing on the rest of his game. Problem is, its not good enough to make up for what he does wrong on defense and rebounding.
Its been 5 years of the same Bargnani. Lets stop playing russian roulette with ‘but what if he gets better?’. He very well may… he also may not. 5 years of long 2s, terrible rebounding and non existent D… I have no reason to expect anything different in the 6th year.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Nov 30, 2011 6:59 AM EST up reply actions
Its really immaterial as in order for Bargnani to be effective you need to have very solid defensive players surrounding him and a high rebounding PG and SG. If you have those things then he could actually be productive as a SF/PF (as long as your starting PF is athletic enough to cover most SF’s these days). But Toronto will take too many years to build that and with what they are paying him it ends up being a waste. Better to part ways ASAP and start anew so maybe we can get this ship going in the right direction instead of aiming at the ice berg in the hopes it will have moved by the time we get there.
Yep
The Raptors should Amnesty Amir so he can be signed by a good team.
Buddahfan, just want to recognise the commendable restraint you showed here.There’s a whole lot a nonsense in that post (Bargnani is the 6th highest scoring C, Amir is paid too much). But you demonstrated remarkable restraint. Kudos.
See Video Interview of Amir Below
He talks about his weight among other things. He said his current weight is between 245 – 250. I think this is a good weight for him at his current age of 24. I can see him adding maybe another 10 – 15 pounds of more muscle over the next couple of seasons. I think 260 would be a good weight for him when he enters his prime at 27.
Nice to read your name again... I look forward to much heated debate...
p.s. HARRISON BARNES 2012!! :) +Infinity…
"the Truth"
You’ve both been MIA for months.
Welcome back!
by dhackett1565 on Nov 30, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I've been reading but was locking myself out of talks until there was real basketball to talk about...
"the Truth"
From Hoopsworld - Amir Back on Court
Toronto Raptors forward Amir Johnson got a chance to shake off the rust on Sunday at Baron’s event.
"I had surgery on my foot so really I’ve been tending to [my rehab]," said Johnson. "I got to rehab on my foot. It’s been five months since I’ve been on the court. It’s actually my first time on the court. The lockout was great for me."
Johnson’s procedure, back in June, was to take care of some instability in his left ankle. He looked a little rusty but was definitely a presence around the basket.
"It feels good. I’ve got to get the strength back in my foot," said Amir. "I’m a little tired but I feel good."
Amir talk's ankle, the lockout, and his green jersey give away!
He shows his scar.
He said that he now weighs between 245 – 250. He added about 20 – 25 pounds of muscle since the season ended. He has been running track as part of his rehab.
I think this was shot before the charity game he just played in.
.
245 lbs
He’d be a monster at that weight.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Nov 30, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Tyson Chandler think he'll be on a new team soon
“I really think I’m going to be on a new team come training camp,” Chandler told ESPN.com in a telephone interview Wednesday night. “I’m really taking a hard look at all of my options, trying to see what best suits me.”
I said, the Raptors without AB are worse than the cavs.
What good team would Amir Johnson get significant minutes on? haha.
Let me be more specific, what team that is top 4 in either conference would amir johnson play significant minutes?
How about... miami, atlanta, orlando or boston in the east.... and the lakers, san antonio, oklahoma city or dallas in the west
Up in the skyscrape, me and my apes, bake cakes.
I give you
Miami and S. Antonio, no really the rest.
Lakers-He is not playing over Bynum, Odom, Gasol
Spurs-Can’t argue with considering they boast a intimidateding front line of bonner, mcdyess, blair, to go alongside duncan. blair also avg 8/7 (aj 9/6) but played less time and gets paid less than 1million!
okc-perkins, ibaka start and okc loves collison who makes less than 3million. will also have 55mill spent on 10 players, doubt theyd pay 6mill for a 4th forward.
dallas-if they lose chandler than yes they could use him, but htey still have marion, dirk, haywood up front and cant afford him.
miami-can’t afford him and why would they want another undersized forward while they have haslem (who is better than amir), joel anthony and bosh (who while tall is not a low post player). and again why pay a guy 6mill to be a 4th forward.
atlanta-has zaza, horford, smoove and already complaining about wanting to move horford to a C positon and at 63 mill with 9 players, why are they commiting 6mill to a 4th forward? zaza also avgs 4/4 and would have similar numbers per minute palyed but only 4.5 mill with 1 year left after this one.
orlando-dwight, ryan anderson, bass and why would they want a 4th forward for 6mill a year. when they are already at 73 mill with only 10plyaers under contract.
boston-6players already at approx 60million, need to send qualifier to green and still need to resign glen davis who is a proven player, and played in big games before and avg big numbers. They also already have KG and JO so amir would at best be first forward off the bench.
So while everyone wants to say how great a fit he would be it also matters about MONEY!
The only two teams that are paying their bench forwards more than AMIR JOHNSON!!!! the lakers and the mavericks, but lets not compare haywood (who they thought would be a starter until they got chandler) and Odom to amir. It has nothing to do with his ability he is an athletic 4, who has improved his jump shot and hustle but is over paid for what he brings to the table. We have 25million! over the next 4 years commited to him. Outside of the mavs and lakers (who are two special cases) no one has more than 2years at 5million commited to bench forwards. so while every team would like to have him for free or at a bargain we don’t have him at that!!! we have him at an avg of 6.25mill for the next 4 years!
While the next argument will undoubtedly be about his potential and locking him up in case he explodes. How many teams have won a championship with an undersized 4 with limited range outside of michael jordan. Even Kobe needed Pau, the Spurs had two towers, pistons needed rasheed, boston had kg, mavs had dirk and even the heat need bosh so space the floor. This has nothing to do with Amir as a basketball player and more abotu his contract and what we have on our roster, this is not a video game and the numbers matter. We have Ed Davis with a similar skill set and a cheaper contract and don’t need to have 25mill commited to the next 4 years to him.
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