Tip-In: "It Ain't Workin" - Raptors Drop Ninth Straight with 107-94 loss to 76ers
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 9:02 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
Email
Print
As the Toronto Raptors dropped their ninth straight game in a disparaging affair, but Franchise is concerned with not only the club's present trajectory, but that of the media covering said squad.
So Jay Triano and I got into it a bit post-game last night, after the Raptors dropped their ninth straight game, 107 to 94 to the Philadelphia 76ers.
Specifically, I tried to call out the fact that again, Andrea struggled to provide much benefit to the team when he wasn't scoring. It was plain as day, as again, a big man bench player from an opposing team, like clockwork, put up season best numbers against Andrea and the Raptors.
This time it was Marreese Speights, who was a ridiculous 10 of 12 for 23 points in only 17 minutes. He also had 9 rebounds and absolutely destroyed the Dinos.
However trying to broach this subject with the Raptors' coach post-game was obviously a touchy matter and the result, as can be seen here, was this exchange:
RHQ: "Is it tough to keep him (Bargnani) out there though when you've got a situation where someone like Speights is dominating inside, and he's (Bargnani) is not putting points on the board?"
Triano: "Yeah."
RHQ: "But he (Bargnani) played quite a few minutes tonight...so you left him in...you were hoping he'd work his way out of it, out of the way they were guarding him essentially?"
Triano: "Look at the names on the list below that. I mean, where do you want me to go?"
RHQ: "Outside though of Bargs, had Ed Davis maybe given you..."
Triano: "...did he look like he had a good game?"
RHQ: "He didn't look that bad..."
Triano: "No...I didn't see that."
And that was that.
I had obviously gotten under Triano's skin, and while it wasn't exacted the smoothest media conversation I've ever had, even outside of a basketball capacity, it reinforced several frustrating points.
First, from a Raptors' perspective, the team continues to try and pretend that Andrea Bargnani is not causing serious problems in terms of winning games.
And they are problems, make no mistake about it.
It's ridiculous that every night, we fans can guess which big men from opposing teams are going to have huge games. Harangody, Armstrong, Speights, Gibson, on and on. How this club expects to start winning games, when it's supposed best player keeps turning in nights like this, is beyond me.
And I'm not naive.
I expect the coach to defend his players to a certain extent, but I was hoping Triano would extrapolate on my initial question, and at least talk about the challenges his club faces when Andrea isn't getting it done on either end of the court.
But no, this quickly turned into a "you never as media tell the coach which players he/she should or shouldn't have played" type situation, an unwritten media rule. Having been around the team via media for over four years I know that, but Jay's one word response to my initial query just didn't sit well with me, and so I tried to get a little more out of him for our readers.
Which brings me to my next point of frustration.
Why the hell is this an unwritten rule?
Isn't the job of a journalist to make like Mulder and Scully and get at the truth? Whatever happened to asking "the tough questions?" In my 9 to 5 job, often someone questions my decisions on a certain matter, whether it's why I used a certain type of medium for a marketing activity, or why we promoted something in a certain fashion. It goes with the turf, and frankly, if you can't take that sort of question from the media, maybe you shouldn't be coaching.
And if you're not asking those types of questions, what's the point of having press access?
It's extremely frustrating to attend games and hear media outside of earshot of the team ask each other great questions and make poignant observations, only for one reason or another, hold those same questions back in the presence of Raptors' players and coaches.
As a result you get the same old same old from the media, something that was reinforced when Sasha and I later went to talk to the 76ers Andre Iguodala, who jokingly stated upon our arrival that there was essentially no point in us talking.
Why?
We would only be asking him the same questions that the previous media group had asked.
It's a sad state of affairs, and the whole thing reminds me of a recent piece by Chris Jones, an Esquire columnist amongst other things, on how to be a professional writer. In the piece, he talks about the idea of "journalists" creating controversy to help themselves stand out in a crowd.
As he notes, "whatever happened to standing out by doing great work?"
And I couldn't agree more.
As it relates to yesterday's back-and-forth with Triano, shouldn't everyone in that media room have been asking questions about why the team continues to trot out the same problematic line-ups and rotations on a team that's won 13 games, and has now lost nine straight? This doesn't have to be done in an insulting fashion, but frankly fans pay the bills for sports teams and the media has an obligation to get answers for said fans.
Why instead do we as fans of the team constantly get these other "beating around the bush" type queries?
Of course I know the answer already, it's politics, and thanks to a long-standing relationship between many of these writers and the team, no one wants to step too hard on anyone's toes.
I'm by no means immune to this myself, and when present at the ACC, feel this need to "toe the line" at times as well.
And that's not to say I don't empathize with Triano and his staff to a certain extent.
Talking to Julian Wright and various players pre-game, it's obvious that winning games is very tough when you've consistently got only 7 or 8 healthy players to practice with. This makes solidifying all types of schemes, defensive and offensive, extremely difficult for sure.
But that doesn't mean there aren't in-game solutions available and last night was a perfect example.
Was Marreese Speights' impact simply a product of "having a good night?"
Not even close.
After Triano's comments Sasha and I headed to the Philly locker room to see if we could talk to some of the 76ers about their plan of attack on the night. There weren't many players left by the time we arrived, but we did luckily get to grab both Speights and Andre Iguodala before they grabbed the team bus.
Said Speights in response to my questions about his play:
"I just went out there and had alot of confidence. The zone was kind of weak and they had a lot of holes in it, I found the holes in it, stuff was going in for me."
He wouldn't bite on my direct queries about playing against Bargnani, but it was pretty obvious from the subtle smiles when I mentioned Andrea's name, that Speights enjoyed the match-up.
Even more incriminating were Andre Iguodala's comments in regards to Speights' play:
"We just looked for the open man, he was always in the right place at the right time, he did a good job finding the open seams."
"Their bigs were helping off, it was clicking for him tonight."
Iggy didn't go as far as saying that 76ers coach Doug Collins put forth the order to get the ball to Speights, but it was pretty obvious from talking to Iguodala that Toronto simply did a terrible job of containing Speights in any capacity.
Which at face value is pretty absurd.
Speights is hardly an All-Star nor will likely ever be, yet he completely dominated the Toronto front-court.
Post-game Triano noted that the 76ers were simply bigger and stronger down low, basically saying that they had lost that battle before they had even played a minute of the game.
However from my bird's eye view last night from the Foster Hewitt Gondola, it was pretty obvious that this wasn't simply a matter of "brawn wins out." I watched string bean Thaddeus Young deny Andrea post position all second half, something Bargs did little to battle through. And I watched 6-8 and 6-6 guys routinely grab rebounds over longer and taller players like Andrea and Amir Johnson, who simply did terrible jobs of establishing position on the glass.
And really, between the rebound disparity and the bench point disparity (Philly's bench outscored Toronto's 58 to 17), that was the match. The bench points can be explained in good part by Philadelphia's superior depth and Toronto's injury situation, but again, why Alexis Ajinca in the first half was playing more minutes than Ed Davis, and why Trey Johnson played nearly the same amount of time as Jerryd Bayless, fresh of a near tripled-double, was beyond me and many others.
But maybe this is all one big tanking strategy.
It has to be because at this rate, it's hard to envision Toronto winning 20 games let alone 25.
And that's fine in terms of grabbing a first-round pick perhaps, but it's going to make for an extremely long season, and not one that bodes well for the organization's culture long-term. You could hear it in the voice of last night's lone bright spot, DeMar DeRozan, post-game, as he spoke to us about the losing streak:
"Definitely frustrating, we have to keep our head up and keep playing...you can't put too much of your mind on it and we cant put too much on that."
46 games down.
36 to go.
A team that's headed nowhere at present, and a media that seems more concerned with rubbing MLSE the wrong way than being critical of a team that's been headed down this path for quite some time.
If I'm absent on the site for a few days, it's because I'm finding some way to to conjure up the ghost of Ralph Wiley to come and cover this basketball team.
135 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Respect
I admire your integrity on this. Part of me wants to throw up my hands and say, “meh, it’s just a game, just for entertainment really.” Which is true. But truth should still matter in a world of bullshit and that’s why I’m so impressed by this post.
Thanks benjibopper, it was an up and down night that’s for sure but after the “exchange” with Triano, I felt I had to get this out.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
did anyone ever think tanking was going to be pretty?
or did anyone think you could tank and win games at the same time?
two points
1) Its hard for people to accept tanking…winning is so much more fun
2) It would be easier for people to look beyond the horizon and tank if it seemed bright….problem is, this draft is going to be fcking garbage….and triano apparently has decided to stop playing our rookie a lot of mintues (according to tonights game)….so kind of a double wahmmy…
only good thingl…derozan is lighting it up… that excites me
I think everyone is forgetting that the team wanted to limit Davis’s minutes over his rookie season in the same way they limited Derozan’s last year. He will have a few games where he plays more mintues but there will nights like last night where he will be limited. Unless you want to kill him on a team going nowhere this season. Maybe the same applies to Bayless.
Bayless
Played like shit for 14 minutes, 0 ast, 1 to, 2 points from your back-up PG does not motivate JT to play you more minutes when teaam struggling to score.
A few things.
1) I asked Triano pre-game about the temptation to play the youngsters like Davis more minutes considering the team’s record, but he refused to bite. Not that I expected Triano to say “yep, we suck, time to give the rooks more minutes,” but even when I backed my statement up with the stat that Davis is averaging close to a double-double when he gets 30 mins of playing time Triano stuck to his guns about “winning games.”
2) Tanking. Great point by Renato as yep, if you’re losing a ton of games, it’s not fun. I guess the problem is that while I didn’t expect this team to win a lot, I did think that I would see more individual and team development in many capacities, especially at the defensive end. Instead, the D is nearly as bad as last year and the offence has regressed big time. Some of this can certainly be attributed to injuries but all of it??
3) Bayless. He wasn’t great on O last night, but it’s hard to get much rhythm when you’re jerked in and out of the line-up, which is what happened last night. And considering how poor Calderon was defensively, especially against back-door cuts, it’s hard to understand why Bayless didn’t warrant an extended look.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
First off, Franchise, kudos and props due to you for putting the tough questions to Triano et al that fans have been asking for weeks. Hold your head high young man, your integrity is intact! This site is a great outlet for fans like myself that can’t bear to read the coverage by the mainstream media. So seriously, thanks man.
Regarding Renato’s question, if you are insinuating that playing Bargnani 40 minutes a game and limiting Ed Davis’ minutes is actually a tanking strategy, then I have no problem with it. Play Bargs 48, because he we might end up with the 1st pick. However, I don’t think that’s the case. I think Triangelo actually thinks Bargnani is helping them win when every statistic points in the opposite direction. So why NOT give some of his minutes to a young Davis who not only could use them for development purposes, but DESERVES them???
I am confused...
Probably why I can’t watch these guys anymore.
They limited Derozon’s minutes last year?? Didn’t seem like that considering he started on a squad that was “the best team on paper BC has ever had”.(Not exact quote, but you know)
“I didn’t see that” (JT) – Sums up his coaching career thus far. He doesn’t seem to see very much of anything.
Why are we tanking again? To get some young superstar to play for an organization and a coach that is destined to be sub par (See Stoudamire, Tmac, VC, Bosh…)
This is a train wreck of an organization.
I could not watch the last several games
as where I am I do not have broadband, but the little I read the Raps seem to be severely down with bodies?
It's not good...
Kleiza, Barbosa, Evans – Injured
Jose – getting over flu
Weems – Just back from injury and still FAR from game shape
Amir – Banged up as always but playing hard through it
Bayless and Davis got less minutes than the TWO D-League players for some unknown reason
Bargnani had a terrible game on defense again and a weak game on offense, but still played the second most minutes
Wright – Tried to do too much, took a bunch of bad shots and over dribbled causing turnovers…
Dorsey was healthy but I don’t think got to play at all…
Demar – Had a helluva game on offense, still too soft on Defense, deserved to play the most minutes for the Raps…
KDFREATPED
Sorry Ajinca, I know you're not a call up from the D-League... my bad
But he hasn’t had a single practice with the team yet before game time and he played more than Ed Davis…
KDFREATPED
He’s been injured… had the flu… I think his dog died and he got dumped by his supermodel girlfriend. Yet he somehow manages to play 35-42 minutes per game and put up a limitless amount of shots. What a trooper!
Honestly, the Bargnani Excuse-o-Meter never ceases to amaze.
Please give Ed Davis some of those minutes. I can handle watching a team lose game after game if there appears to be a greater goal in mind (developing young players).
Or we can continue to force the square peg in the round hole (the idea of Bargs as a franchise player that you build around).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Ed Davis
Davis is playing 21 mpg the same as DeRozan last year, who seems to have not suffered by the exposure. As far as Davis earning more minutes, its up to him to prove he can do the job, as he is 3rd on the totem pole behind Andrea and Amir, and rightly so.
Rightly so?
Perhaps overall I agree, but in games where Andrea’s shot isn’t falling, and he’s not getting it done at the other end, why does this “totem” still exist?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Bargs
he is bench player on a good team yet he he is the “franchise” of this team.
unbelievable how low the raptors has gone.
this year the only bight spot is Demar who is actually taking advantage of getting a chunk of minutes per game and has stepped up his game.
Bargnani the Franchise?
The only people calling Bargnani the franchise are on the interweb know nothings, not on the Raptors.
He is a uniquely skilled 7ft basketball player who can score effectively in many ways, being a number 1 or 2 scorer on a team, and is currently identified as a center, for want of a better classification, as he does not fit the usual role definition of a center.
then why
does he get the most usage, minutes and touches? Why is he not held ‘responsible’ for his mistakes?
While Jay or BC may not explicitly say it… they are acting as if he is. All they are doing is wasting time.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 27, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
He’s also “uniquely skilled” in allowing benchwarmers from the opposing team to look like All-Stars. I don’t know how you can be excited about what he provides offensively when:
A. this team is middle of the road on offense anyway
B. at one point this season, the team was scoring more points per 100 possessions with Bargs on the bench, and
C. guys like Speights are racking up far more points than Bargs
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I'm an idiot for arguing when it seems pointless - but so be it
Honestly, the Bargnani Excuse-o-Meter never ceases to amaze.
So – it’s okay for Mik to mention all the injuries, but he conveniently fails to mention Andrea having any issues in that respect. Both Jose & Andrea missed practices for the flu. And it showed last night. As well, AB missed some (practices) for knee, foot, and ankle issues – hence all the sleeves on his lower body … which are not allowed under normal play (as I know it).
You can blast us for using excuses, but you have to wonder about the correlation between his health, and some of his recent poor shooting efforts.
.
Point is, while Andrea should have done a better job last night, until I know Raps can fill out a line-up that is somewhat healthy, it’s tough to hang this loss on just one guy. ALL the Bigs had issues in the paint last night – including Amir & Davis. Part of why that was, is our perimeter defense letting everything through.
As for my opinions, I find it tough to offer one in the Game Day thread. And if you notice, so do some of the other non hater fans. You guys have basically hi-jacked a good forum, with “snarky” shots mostly directed at the SAME player.
The problem as I see it, is this:
- you’re stuck on the Andrea’s #1 draft spot – which really was a weak draft. Roy was a gamble that’s failed. It will hobble that team for years to come.
- Andrea is playing a position he’s not suited for. And the 2 other guys (who I like immensely), can’t cut it against most Bigs. Hence, I agree – we need a real Center. Where I differ, is that I think Andrea could play very well alongside a Chandler-type Center. I know you don’t agree with Bargnani alongside any mix, and would rather trade him, but that’s your opinion (and a few others).
- you keep seeing this game as an individual game, and miss the team aspect. Raps have a 7 foot guy (which you infer is a height ONLY for the C-spot), playing like a PF, yet expected to be our Center, because we have no one else capable of playing 35 minutes in that capacity. And while we both understand his weaknesses, I differ in my opinion, in that we have crap perimeter defenders, thus accentuating the whole problem even more. Boston excels because they play team defense, and the wings/guards have contributed to that process. Ours don’t – at this time.
The problem as some of you see it, is:
- I believe in unicorns – great … thanks for reducing it to this. The irony of how you & others condescend to this level, is best illustrated by this: “The unicorn is a mythical creature. Strong, wild, and fierce, it was impossible to tame by man.”
- Bargnani is not a Starter on a Contender. First up, we’re so far away from being a Contender, that this kind of discussion is not really relevant. However, I might disagree if I was Orlando, or Dallas (with Chandler), but since we can’t get on the same page with that, let’s agree to just disagree.
Here’s a little different perspective from the other guys . And no, I don’t just pull out positive statements:
He [Bargnani] was actually not too bad today I thought. Overall, he made the rotations OK, rebounding was poor as usual. Definitely not bad enough to warrant any more attention than Amir Johnson. [RapRepublic – Arsenalist]
Bargnani: 10 shots in 37 minutes. Impact on game: zero. You want the ball? Ask for it. If Jose looks you off, take him aside in the huddle and threaten to break his face next time he doesn’t pass it to you on the wing. [RapRep – Arsenalist]
http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/01/26/toronto-raptors-roll-call-vs-sixers-jan-26/#ixzz1CFqokfv9
.
Suffice to say, our differences will continue to be as such. What I’d like to see, are discussions about the WHOLE team, and what we need (including a true Center), instead of this:
Totally agree!
He’s like a cancer
Maybe Mik you should learn from KG when you make statements like that.
Of course it’s nice to see a little less venom, and more analytical comments like this from Franchise:
That was a solid board…interesting to see Bargs playing the 4 here… [Ajinca was playing Center]
We’re never gonna agree, and that’s okay. But I’d like the opportunity to have my input, without cancer or any other sh!t being thrown in to reinforce an opinion. I like Andrea – I’ll state that right now. I also like Demar – but he’s crap on defense as well, and he’s needs to develop a 3pt shot. Unlike you DS, I think that’ll come in time. If not, we move on.
As for Davis, he’s playing enough right now – for a rookie. I also like Amir, but he has to bulk up. Bayless can be great when he starts (still see him as a true back-up), and he acts like a true PG when he starts, but when he’s off the Bench, he plays like neither a PG, nor is he good enough to usurp one of our other (and better) Shooting Guards.
.
Last night our Bench got destroyed by theirs. According to Hollinger, we have one of the better Benches in the league – so until we get back a few bodies (and they’re truly healthy), we’ll just have to endure the pain – that goes with rebuilding.
.
One last point in this rant. Bargnani IS playing too much – I agree. But … there is no way in hell your top scorer should get less shots than Wright.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
I find it ironic that you are using a quote from the Arsenalist about Anndrea not demanding the ball and you do not see an issue with this. The fact is that he doesn’t care enough to demand the ball that is what everyone has an issue with. He doesn’t care enough to rebound, doesn’t care enough to box out, doesn’t care enough to play defense (both individual and team). Maybe he is incapable of doing these things.
As for the argument that Anndrea should play the 4, think about this, the center position in the NBA is dominated by marginal offensive players whose primary role is defense and rebounding. How will he fair defensively against a position that has a lot more offensive talent? Will we see players like Brand go off for 40 or 50 points? We are better off with the Spreights of the world going off for 20 than Brand, KG etc going off for 40.
Demanding the ball
.
As I saw the game (and yes, I guess I’m tainted – always am APPARENTLY), Andrea was looked off way too much. Although, as I read one post elsewhere – opponents when given the choice on who to focus their defense on, will defer to Bargnani quite a bit. In fact, in the 2nd half, AB took as many shots, as DS has love for Derozan.
I guess from my perspective, and until we start getting bodies back, an 8 player line-up makes it difficult to analyze each single game in a rationale way. We have D-League players getting more than 18 minutes of playing time – how many “Contenders” can boast that fact?
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve actually been impressed with DeRozan’s development on offense. My red flags are his regression from beyond the arc (it’s pretty shocking) and his complete lack of defense. I’ve said “I’m not bullish on him”, but I’m at least willing to give him some rope.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Arsenalist and Johnson
Everyone of course is entitled to their opinion but Arsenalist has been a Johnson hater from the moment that the Raptors acquired him.
Arsenalist started out by saying that Johnson is “garbage man” and that is all he will ever be
Then when Johnson started to show a game on offense Arsenalist changed his tune and started to say that Johnson should never start because Johnson commits too many fouls.
Johnson is now starting to improve his ability to stay out of foul trouble as evidenced by his 29 mpg as a starter which by the way is two more mpg as a starter than Evans was logging before he broke down due to the heavy minutes for a 9 year career 19 mpg player
So now Arsenalist is going into panic mode over the idea that Johnson who is still only 23 may one day prove to be a solid all-around starter. So Arsenalist is looking for anything he can find to continue to bash Johnson all the while never saying anything good about Johnson without also bashing him in the same time.
Everyone knows that I am a big Johnson supporter but at least I have been honest about his problems like committing too many stupid fouls, not being an adequate defensive rebounder for a #4. However again Johnson did a good one on one job last night defending one of the better #4s in the league in Elton Brand. Johnson played him even.
He also has shown good defense against the likes of Boozer, Josh Smith etc.
I don’t know where Johnson will eventually wind up in his game but no matter how good he many become continue to look for Arsenalalist to bash him.
Bargnani is a C
1. Because he can’t defend PFs.
2. Because it is harder to find productive Cs than productive PFs.
Disagree
Andrea is playing a position he’s not suited for.
The problem is that on defense there is no position he is suited for. He’s too slow to stop guards and 3s. We’ve seen that he’s at his best defensively guarding slow centers. He’s not quick enough and he doesn’t have the instincts to keep the faster 4s and 5s off of the boards.
To me, I’ve come around to the position that Bargnani’s weaknesses are instinct related and not really curable at this stage in his career. In the right situation, I think he can be a very effective player, but I don’t see the right situation developing any time soon for the Raptors.
I’m going to question whether Arsenalist even watched that game. Speights absolutely destroyed Bargnani, and Doug Collins came out after the game and said the Sixers were employing the same strategy as the Spurs (which, if you recall, involved DeJuan Blair successfully attacking Bargs). This has reached the point where it has become a strategy for other teams. And rather than react to it, Triano just plays right into it.
Hey, if tanking is the goal, then let’s keep going down the road of 40+ minutes of Bargnani. Just realize that in order to placate Colangelo’s Golden Child, you’re probably going to lose the other 14 guys on the roster – not sure how that fits with an organization that is supposedly building for the future?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
In response to some of the points in the Rapthoseleafs’ manifesto above:
"You guys have basically hi-jacked a good forum, with "snarky" shots mostly directed at the SAME player."
I love this. So we should not talk about one of the most important and maddening issues surrounding the team: the play, stature and minute allotment to Bargnani?!?! This is ridiculous. And that goes out to Vicious D’s "protest" the other day as well. How anyone can think you can talk about this team without discussing a fundamental problem is beyond me. Let’s just burry our heads in the sand and talk about Sundiata Gaines’ jumpshot… Pfffft
"Andrea is playing a position he’s not suited for. … we need a real Center…"
As I mentioned yesterday, by trying to wall Bargnani in with defensive players you are at the same time admitting he can’t rebound/defend and suggesting we build the team around him. Unreal. Similar to suggesting you build the team around Al Herington, Jamal Crawfod or Jason Terry. Retarded.
"Totally agree! He’s like a cancer"
It was actually ME who said this about Bargnani last night in the in-game chat and it was in reference to the pathetic example Bargnani sets for the young Bigs (doesn’t even try to rebound/defend yet is not held accountable). How in the world you got that I was calling YOU a cancer when you were not even involved in the discussion (did not even post the hole game) is a mystery to me. Unless one of two things, you are mentally ill and think you are Bargnani or you ARE Bargnani posting under a pseudonym. If its the former, I appologise and I know where you can get help. If the latter…
Apologies to Mik
Totally agree!
He’s like a cancer … [ a reply to Blanco, which was a reply to MAS11 ]
Sorry Mik – I think that’s twice I’ve dissed you (recently).
Truth is, Mik is definitely nowhere near as harsh as you MAS, when it comes to Bargnani venom. Granted you think Andrea’s a problem – we get that – but cut him a little slack once in awhile. As for directing that cancer comment towards me, WHEN did I say such a thing?
Maybe Mik you should learn from KG when you make statements like that.
Replace Mik with MAS11 and this (above) quote still stands. It simply refers to how KG called Charlie a cancer (or something to that effect). To call Bargnani a cancer, shows no respect for those whose lives have been affected by such an event. And yeah, call me a baby for saying as much, but the worst term I’ve ever used is hater , and although it’s my New Year’s resolution to avoid that word, I can’t help seeing hater in place of your handle – MAS11. Sorry, but the Optimist Club will never send an invite your way.
Couple of Points:
- I have no problem discussing Andrea’s lack of effort, or poor effort. But let’s be real – when it comes to Andrea, it’s way beyond normal abuse. Why not take a poll to see how some posters feel. And if I’m wrong about fewer fans perceiving almost all Raptor problems as mostly Bargnani-caused, I’ll abstain from defending him. And please try not to clear your cookies so often, that you can vote multiple times.
- Wall in Bargnani with defensive stoppers – wtf. Two players with defensive abilities (unlike Jose, Demar, & Kleiza) would be a good start. I’ve always said we need balance – we have too much offensive styled players, even though some of them, can’t even manage that.
- Fundamental problem? Bargnani? Please look at this team and tell me with a straight face, that Andrea is the fundamental issue that has caused this 9 game losing streak, and most of the ills to this team. You’re saying, or inferring, that take away Andrea, and we make the play-offs. Or something to that effect.
Even DS suggested how Arsenalist probably didn’t watch the game. That’s my point to my rant – you guys dismiss any OTHER opinion as being irrational, unicorn related, or “I know where you can get help”. You & what I like to call the Group of Seven, are RIGHT, and everyone else is wrong. Thanks for letting me know – wouldn’t want to waste any more of my time seeing the glass half full.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
Here’s what you said: "But I’d like the opportunity to have my input, without cancer or any other sh!t being thrown in to reinforce an opinion."
You are implying that the term "cancer" was levied in some relation to your comments, which I find weird as I didn’t see you on that thread last night at all…
Oh and regarding "To call Bargnani a cancer, shows no respect for those whose lives have been affected by such an event."
You little weasel… How dare you try to make this about people with illnesses. Pathetic. Give me a break. That term "he’s a cancer" is a well established euphemism. Typical Bargnani apologist trying to deflect and resorting to nonsense to win an argument. Seriously, you lost any miniscule fragment of respect that was left for you as a result of that nonsense.
Oh and LOL at "let’s take a pole". How about you just read the comments below and over the last few weeks and notice the OVERWHELMING sentiments of disgust with Bargnani’s play. Ask recent converts like Member 29, who have flat out said wile fans of Bargnani they can no longer ignore the obvious.
Just to clarify
Oh and LOL at “let’s take a pole”.
Are we talking about the North Pole, a Stripper’s pole, or a voting poll. Or is that the “hole” point. And just so you know, I couldn’t help myself.
You little weasel…
Thanks.
But let me just say this – and I apologize for being a little sensitive to that topic (my Ex & my mother – both still alive & healthy again), I think using it as an “euphemism” is not exactly a good choice, so let’s just leave it at that.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever man
My life has been touched by Cancer as well. That’s why I’m so disgusted by you right now. To suggest that using that well established, commonly used euphemism is somehow linked to and insensitive to those who struggle with the disease is ridiculous. Further, to make yourself a sympathetic victim at the same time to score points in an argument about basketball is repugnant. I pity you.
Hey
Be disgusted all you want, I was just trying to make a point. And yes, I should’ve kept a personal issue out of this. But sometimes this forum pisses me off. It’s too one-sided, and fans like me are always considered idiots.
And if we learned anything about the KG event, it’s that a common euphemism (as you see it), should maybe not be so common.
.
As for scoring points, your reference to Bargnani could be viewed as the same. Let’s just leave this one alone. I’ll be a little more respective, and you try to be as well. I’d rather discuss basketball, and not be so sarcastic as I was (with the pole comment). Sorry for dissing you there.
.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Fine with me. I would much rather use meaningful arguments than infantile spelling corrections and emotional cop outs anyways. Now, just to be clear, KG’s comments were wrong, I believe he said (Paraphrasing) "(Charlie V.) looks like a Cancer patient" which could very well be insensitive and offensive as Charlie V. Has a genetic disorder. However that is light-years away from the innocuous comment I made, which you maliciously (and pathetically) twisted for point scoring.
I’m always happy to discuss things rationally and using logic.
So let's discuss
And it relates to Bargnani and last night.
.
One particular sequence that RapRepublic (Arsenalist) demonstrated in his current post, shows Bargnani’s man (Speights) scoring. Stat-wise, one would blame Andrea for this.
http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/01/27/breaking-it-down-ed-davis-has-a-lot-to-learn/
But breaking down the play, Arsenalist – he who didn’t watch the game – demonstrates that Andrea left his man to “help”. He had to pick one or the other – and in this case, once he committed to Iguodala, a very nice alley-oop is made to Speights.
.
I realize this is only one play, but it just seems to me, that Raptor defense has many break-downs. And as youthfulness will demonstrate, it puts added pressure on a Center who could use all the help he can get.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Credit where credit is due: somebody finally attempted to defend Bargnani without resorting to calling the other person biased or a hater.
Agreed that the Raptor defense has many break downs. Bargs still looks hopeless on that play, but point taken.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Bargnani’s bad D is not excused by other players plaing bad D. However, point taken RapthoseLeafs, Bargnani is not alone in his defensive ineptitude.
Yep, you got me – I think it’s irrational to suggest Bargnani played OK when he got torched by a benchwarmer. My bad.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Hey thanks MAS, I love having words put in my mouth for me...
By the way, I watched the game, and in the pre-game it was mentioned that Jose was coming off the flu AND he missed a game before this because of the flu.
I was not aware Bargs had had the flu, he certainly didn’t miss a game or suffer reduced minutes or take any less shots because of it…
So I apologize for not knowing every aspect of every player but I appreciate you indicating that I know everything, thanks…
Renato asked a question about injuries and said he didn’t see the game so I gave him a summation of the entire situation as best I know…
I don’t see you slagging me for saying Wright played unintelligently… you only pick out the part about Bargnani… huh… who seems to be the biased one?
Anyways, I could care less if you get this straight in your head as I seldom concern myself with the opinions of crazy folk…
Long may King Bargs’ reign be! Hail! Hail! If that’s what you prefer to hear…
I could care less…
KDFREATPED
This was directed at RapthoseLeafs
So I apologize for not knowing every aspect of every player but I appreciate you indicating that I know everything, thanks…
KDFREATPED
Just to clarify the Game Thread comment
How in the world you got that I was calling YOU a cancer when you were not even involved in the discussion (did not even post the hole game) is a mystery to me. [MAS11]
As for my opinions, I find it tough to offer one in the Game Day thread. [Rapthoseleafs]
While I listed these quotes in this order, the latter quote came first.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
+1 billion
So tired of hearing the Bargs excuses… He’s sick, he’s injured blah, blah bla, Then sit the F@CK down and give someone else PT!
Bayless sucked last night
He looked so good in the previous game, but tonight he was completely lost. In his first couple of possessions he picked up his dribble early and barely over the half court. That put the other Raptors in a bind because they had to come back to rescue him. That they had to do so was obvious to the 76ers, so the first time resulted in a turnover as AI managed to pick off a pass to DD.
Bayless just looked lost and I’m not surprised that Jay pulled him early.
Davis looked a little bit lost too. He’s usually a bit more visible in energy but not last night. I would liked to have seen him get a bit more time though to see if he could get going.
I don’t get the controversy on this blog about the amount of time Bayless gets. He is clearly number two behind Calderon both in terms of ability to run the team and in his time with the team. I don’t want to go back to the days of Calderon vs. Jack and Calderon vs.TJ. Every good team in the NBA has an established pecking order with respect to the PG, and the Raptors are doing the right thing in terms of letting Bayless know he has a lot to learn.
Not sure it is a controversy....
I think people view Bayless as a player who might have more of a future on this team than Calderon.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jan 27, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
To me, Bayless deserved to play less tonight. He absolutely shit in shorts in his first shift and got pulled quickly. (I wish Jay would do that a bit more, actually)
He just didn’t have it tonight. All of the progress he made starting the other night went away.
If he’d played better, he would have gotten more time.
Bargnani's weak game
Weak game 6/10 FG, 1/2FG3, 4/4FT, 5RB, 2AST, 2STL, 3BLKS, 17PTS in 38MINS, hope he has many more such weak games and some of the other underachievers catch that FLU.
As for his defense, nobody played good defense this game including Super Wright, who stunk on offense as well.
But why on earth did Andrea only attempt about 3 shots in the second half? Play after play I watched him fight with Thad Young on the blocks only to give up and stand around the 3 point line.
-He attempted two post-ups, both of the most robotic variety. One that resulted in a horrific pass to Jack Armstrong, another that was easily stripped.
-He had 5 rebounds in 38 minutes while a man he was responsible for checking for a good portion of the game, Marreese Speights, had 23 points and 9 rebounds in half that time, continuing a rather concerning trend.
I’m not sure how you can win games when your most talented player (I’ve never labeled him a franchise talent) puts in efforts like this. I’d use the flu as a valid excuse if these types of outings weren’t becoming more and more frequent as the season’s gone on.
I even tried to talk to Bargs pre-game about his play and how he felt he was doing and he immediately got his back up.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe this will help Franchise
Bargnani: 10 shots in 37 minutes. Impact on game: zero. You want the ball? Ask for it. If Jose looks you off, take him aside in the huddle and threaten to break his face next time he doesn’t pass it to you on the wing. [RapRep – Arsenalist]
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Andrea....
not sure he will ever demand the ball like that. Very few players in the league “can” or “do” that. You can’t expect that to suddenly happen.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jan 27, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
All part of the process. Which some people are a little too anxious to see things happen quicker.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
NOBODY HERE
has suggested Bargs is a “franchise” player.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jan 27, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
Just because Andrea was 1st pick, some people can’t get by this. Why can’t we have that Star player at the SF position (or maybe even the PG spot), and use a combo of Demar & Bargnani for Offensive strength.
.
What bothers me, is that some people feel we can’t improve either of these latter two guys, when it comes to Defense. If that requires tough love, then so be it. Trouble is, Raptors are not in the position (with talent & injury issues), to demonstrate tough love more often. I’ve never been against Jay sitting Andrea, but I am against having him come off the Bench. Maybe on Boston’s Bench, or Laker Bench, but not when you’re a 13-33 team.
.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 27, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Doing something quick and dirty
At the rate of 5 rebounds per 37 minutes, a team full of Bargnanis would have pulled down 32 rebounds over 48 minutes.
With teams averaging ~40 rebounds a game each, his poor rebounding basically puts you 16 points behind off the bat due to rebounding discrepancy.
Rebounding
A team full of Raptors with Bosh leading the way at 11rbs per game averaged 9.8 off and 40.4 total last year, and team went 40-42. This year without Bosh they are averaging 11.8 off and 40.5 total this year and team is 13-33. So what ???
The leading rebounding team in the NBA at 45 per game is Minnesota, with Love a superstar by the media and interweb leading the world. So what? Guess where they are in the NBA ?
So……….. I am not sure what your point here is. Are you saying that Anndrea’s play at center is acceptable and worth building around? I realise that rebounding alone doesn’t necessarily correlate into wins but it certainly helps. Realistically the argument comes down to whether you think Minnessota is further along in their future or not as I think that adding a franchise player to Minny as it is currently constructed makes them a very good team where as I am not sure you can argue the same for the Raptors. Only time will tell but suggesting that Anndrea doesn’t have to rebound, play defense or anything resembling team play doesn’t have a negative impact is ludicrous.
Wright was the only Rap on the plus side of +/- last night
by benjibopper on Jan 27, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Again with the offensive stats. Are you worried about the Raptors or your fantasy basketball squad? Speights going off for 20+ and nine boards negates any of that glorious line you just posted.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Tanking
never been an advocate of “tanking” [trying to lose] per se, just realizing that wins this year are irrelevant and focus on winning 2-3 years from now. That means PLAY THE ROOK and any other young guys who might actually be significant parts of a winning club as of 2013.
The Raptors bench!
Davis 17 mins, 4 rbs, 4 pts, poor D rookie gamne, JT pulled for Ajinca
Bayless 14 mins, 0 asts, 1 to, 2 points, why play him more, when he stinks ?
Its his job to be an effective playmaking back-up PG, playing 15/18 mins per game.
Weems 14 mins 3/7 4 rbs, 6 pts, better than the Grizz game, but still far to go
Trey Johnson D league,12 mins 3 pts, just signed Wed, no practice
Ajinca, 6 mins 2 pts, arrived tues no practice
This is an NBA bench, outscored 58-17, its not even a D league bench, no option for Triano but to play his starters, Bargnani included max minutes
Bargnani played 44 mins vs the Grizz scoring 29 points, in a 2 point loss also when the fantastic bench of Davis, Gaines, and Weems was outscored 32-8, as 5 players were out for various reasons.
The bench was watching in suits, Barbosa, Kleiza, and Evans. Until they return and the players playing thru injurys, illness get back to health they may not win another game, unless everyone who plays, plays a perfect game.
It’s easy to roll out the bench scoring (58-17) as a justification for playing the starters heavy minutes. Hell, Triano even did that in the post-game press conference. But that’s a lazy explanation.
Consider the fact that their big scorer off the bench (Speights) hit his first six shots while being covered by Bargnani (a starter!). Those Sixers bench guys didn’t rack up 58 points strictly against the Raptors’ bench.
And this is the thing that kills me about Bargs: It’s not only the starting big men on the opposing teams who seems to put up big numbers against the Raptors… it’s the scrubs off the bench that seem to torch the guy! (Harangody, Gibson, Asik, Armstrong and now Speights)
How anyone thinks they’re going to build a winning team around this guy is beyond me. He can’t even keep the bench warmers in check.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Bench play
Dosent matter who played who, fact is right now the Philly bench players are so much better (talented) for this game than the Raptors that its like the NBA vs the NBDL, and no contest
Agreed.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jan 27, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Stance
Who among us has said that the team should be built around Bargnani?
Brian Colangelo
And if he hasn’t explicitly said it, all his moves leave little other alternative as a conclusion.
That wasn’t designed to call out you or anyone else commenting on this site. Even the Bargnani supporters post solid arguments about surrounding the guy with defensive players (like a Tyson Chandler) or concede that he’s ultimately a 6th man on a good team.
That was more of a shot at the management and coaching staff.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 27, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Bargs
when does his contract expire?
why does he get killed under the basket when he’s a 7 footer FFS.
he doesn’t box out, he doesn’t rebound to save his life he doesn’t even help his teammates!
i saw him a couple times last night just standing looking up for others to get the rebound!
Bargnani
After this year 4 more years of the Magic Man
yeah
4 more years of a one trick magician… disappearing
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 27, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
TANK TANK TANK
All along the watchtower. Listen to it during every Raptors game. It will help you get through this hell we’re in as fans. But one day the smoke will clear and we’ll have a group of young players that we can build around. And maybe one day we will reach the playoffs again.
Zone Defense and Rebounding
1. The Raptors played a bunch of zone D
2. Everyone knows that the biggest weakness of playing zone defense is rebounding.
3. Davis did not have a good game
4. Johnson is playing out of position. The Raptors need to start playing him more at the SF spot.
5. It should be obvious to anyone who has watched the Raptors games that Johnson’s offense is developing nicely. Last night he was three out of three on twenty foot jumpers. He also beat his man off the dribble a number of times for baskets.
6. The Raptors need a big man that can rebound and that is not Evans. They need a young stud who is big and strong who can play the #5
7. Bargnani needs to be traded and the Raptors need a stud at the #4. Davis eventually should be able to be that player.
Raptors and Zone And Amir
Zone defense (atleast at the NBA lvl) should be used sparingly. Very useful to ‘mix things up’, as it often throws a team off for a possession or two, usually forcing a timeout. But it can’t be used as often as the Raps do. Its hard to rebound out of, it tires out the D from the ball movement, and it doesn’t take long to leave someone open for an easy shot, or worse open under the bucket. All said, they use too much zone… but they have to. Its the only feasible way to cover for Bargnani.
Johnson is not a SF. Plain and simple. Yes he is hitting his jumper but guys are letting him shoot it. Yes he is attacking and beating people, but they are already slower than him. Johnson is doing a fine job at PF… and while he may get overpowered at times he still makes the other guy work for it. What he needs is help… help on D and help rebounding. He can only be responsible to cover so much ground at once.
What the Raps need is REAL starting C… not a streaky, inefficient SF playing C because he is 7 ft. Nothing is going to change until that gets ‘fixed’
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 27, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, we need more studs.
The thing about Johnson is that he’s a tweener (more suited toward PF playstyle than SF). He can play either position but isn’t really the traditional guy you want at either starting spot.
His + rebounding and inside presence for a 3 would make him a good SF to pair with Bargs. But I’m not sure how he’d hold up defensively on the perimeter.
I’d be interested to see a Johnson/Davis/Bargnani frontcourt, though it probably couldn’t happen due to the sorry state of our bench.
I Agree That It Is Unknown
It is indeed an unknown how his defense would be at the #3 spot but he has the physical tools to defend the #3.
In my opinion since this is a lost season as far as making he playoffs go, why not give it a shot and see what happens.
In fact when Kleiza was healthy recently Johnson did play some #3 with Klieza at the #4. Kleiza is an undersized PF for the NBA though he is a great PF in the European league.
The problems with starting Johnson, Davis and Bargnani together include the fact that
1. With the current lack of playable depth up front the bench would be useless
2. Bargnani is not a rebounder and he is also a terrible weak side defender.
In any case when Reggie returns the Raptors should try starting Evans, Bargnani and Johnson. Have Davis and Kleiza come off the bench for now. Eventually replace Evans with Davis at the PF and replace Bargnani with a stud in the middle who can defend and rebound. If Johnson doesn’t work out at the #3 then decide whether to trade him or send back to the second unit but not until after the Raptors have given him a good shot at playing the #3. I don’t mean 10 games but maybe half a season or so to see if he has the potential to be an effective #3
In your long-term plan you would have a Johnson/Davis/Tyson Chandler-type front-court? Quite strong from a rebounding perspective though I wonder if they could put up much scoring besides garbage points. And if you pencil in Derozan at the 2, only the PG would actually have 3pt range (which isn’t even a given).
That’s why I feel as though Amir at the 3 almost necessitates Bargnani at the 5. It’s an unholy compromise (like trading for an aging Marion at the 3 to pair with Bargs). Not my real preference, which is Amir coming off the bench. But the odds of us finding a top notch 3 and 5 to go with Davis and force Amir to the bench seems like a rather tall task. Unless we can deal Bargs for a high pick somehow and speed up this youth movement.
I barely think of Evans since it’s likely he’s gone after this year, and he’s not the type any team should want playing major minutes anyway.
Thanks Franchise.
Seriously, the circle-jerk between MLSE and the media is beyond annoying. Self-censure ensures poor journalism, period. Of course, like everything in the world, change doesn’t, and won’t, come from within the “jouralisportomplex”. It needs to be an outsider. In this case, that’s you Franchise.
As a “business”, whatever that means for the HQ, it is unquestionably what your “value proposition” is to the readers (excuse the business-speak bs, but it really applies). In other words, we come here and talk here because it’s the best place to do so. And the reason it’s the best place is that the dialogue is completely heartfelt and honest. So, don’t drink the MLSE Koolaid, keep asking the hard questions, no matter what the reaction is. While your fellow journos will no doubt use it as opportunity to further villify “new media”, that is just further evidence of WHY we have new medai, namely that Old Media sucks. And of course they suck: there was almost no competition for a long time, and they became monopolies/duopolies, with the resultant decrease in product quality. Now that you’re continuing to kick their ass, of course they will sneer at you (even if, deep down inside, they definitely respect and admire you for having the balls to do what they can’t/won’t). I need not even explain why MLSE is fearful of true media coverage – there is a lot of “meat” to the questions fans have, and a lot of validity.
The best part? If they are ever foolish enough to try to revoke your media credentials for your criticism, you can just imagine the Streisand Effect that such an action would have.
So, in conclusion, keep on kicking ass and taking names.
P.S. As an aside, why is it that in years when we can and should tank there is never a clearcut superstar? And really, that’s all we know about the 2011 draft – there are no top-end, sure-things, potential Hall of Fame members. Still, don’t for a second take this comment to mean that I don’t fully endorse a nuclear blow up of the team, keeping only Davis for sure, and preferably DD, AJ, Bayless, Alabi, Ajinca. Also, with the farm system now so depleted since the loss of #1 prospect Giorgios Printezis, it’s time we rebuild.
Just a great comment
Thanks Raptorsaddict, some great points here, love to write a full blog entry on many of them.
No MLSE Koolaid for me. I definitely ruffled some of my media peeps’ feathers today and felt some backlash. I expected that though, and spoke to many about the issues they had with what I wrote. The local media does have some great reporters and we’ve worked with these folks a ton in the past. My overriding aim though was for us all to “step our game up” in terms of covering this franchise.
As for the draft…I like a lot of these kids but agreed, outside of Irving, not sold on any of them presently, but still lots of NCAA ball to be played.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
For some reason...
….I think you might have the blinders on for Irving: he is, after all, a Dukie. And while you may not drink from the MLSE punch bowl, you have ingested gallons of the Duke Koolaid!
by RaptorsAddict on Jan 28, 2011 7:29 AM EST up reply actions
Playing Johnson at the SF Spot
Johnson is one of the best in the league in the transition game. This should be obvious to every Raptors fan who has watched the Raptors play over the last two seasons.
Johnson never has been and never will be a top level defensive rebounder for a number of reasons including the fact that he is not a wide enough body to clear space under the boards.
More importantly he does not have a natural instinct for grabbing defensive rebounds.
However, by playing him at the #3 alongside two bigs who can rebound and defend Johnson would not have to worry so much about rebounding but could focus on getting out on the break after a defensive rebound by one of he other Raptors. Last season playing alongside Bosh, Johnson was able to run more in the transition game with a great deal of success. Play him alongside two studs who can rebound and he will score a ton of points in the transition game.
Johnson is big enough and quick enough to defend the #3.
The SF spot is where he should be playing.
Good Work, Franchise
I’m impressed with your perseverance in asking the tough questions even though you don’t always get the answers you rightly deserve. Keep up the good work!
Thanks man, always a tricky situation to try and balance questions that don’t threaten the coach with getting answers for the readers. Often the two seem miles apart, and sometimes, as was the case last night, things get testy as a result.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
Nice Work Franchise
making an attempt to get something out of Jay.
Any chance, when you have the opportunities ofcourse, to maybe try to and ask the opposing team those same style questions you asked Philly? ie. did you guys go in with a game plan to attack the paint/bigs/bargs etc?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 27, 2011 12:46 PM EST reply actions
Thanks for the props folks and YES, that’s 100% the strategy going forward. That’s why I went to the Philly locker room post-game but from now on, I think I’ll head there right away to talk to as many opposing players as possible about these types of things.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
"And if you're not asking those types of questions, what's the point of having press access?"
See Doug Smith, he makes a fine living off of not caring.
Great Article
Proud of you for asking the tough questions. Losing like this is not easy and it’s taking a toll on everyone. Even I was disgusted with Bargs last night. I don’t think Bargs is the problem tho, he only contributes to the root causes of the raps problems. The real cause of the Raps struggle is a serious serious lack of talent, especially on the defensive end. Put a tough defensive C next to Bargs and a good defensive SF who can score a little along with improved D from the SG position and this team is a good one when healthy. Bargs is def sucking it up but the team’s struggles is not his fault, his flaws are only highlighted by the lack of anything resembling established talent around him. Having said that tho, for the first time ever I would def entertain the thought of trading Bargs for an infusion of talent, even if its one or two guys with upside and a good 1st round pick.
Thanks Member29, appreciate the props as it’s not something that’s easy to do, especially in an environment where many of the traditional media already looks at you as illegitimate.
And solid point here. I focussed on Andrea, but as I’ve said before, his issues are very much the same as the rest of the team, and I really think that if he was used differently, he could be a much more valuable piece.
Right now, his weakenesses are being showcased or all to see.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
At what point are we allowed to initiate tradebargnani.com?
Yes, I’m back, and I haven’t forgotten about our conversation back in November about trading Barni.
I’m not a big fan of having your 4 (or 5) relying heavily on camping out on the perimeter. Your 4’s and 5’s can still be your go-to-guy, and can shoulder the scoring load, but they shouldn’t spend as much time as Barni does around the perimeter. They should also be good enough to play some average D, and at least get you some valuable boards. Barni does none of the small things well, he doesn’t do the things that don’t show up on the score sheet.
As long as BC continues to be stubborn about not getting rid of Barni, this team will never have a front court that can help them compete (Barni eats up too many valuable minutes, and is a huge defensive liability).
Just so go, and tradebargnani.com will be fired up in a flash.
Nick
PS – can’t wait for the draft, and the 2 first rounders we have.
+1
Please, someone do this. Even a facebook page. i will join for sure! I would do it myself, but I’m not technically inclined…
Imagine if we traded Bargnani for Arenas. Then we could watch a frontcourt of Turkoglu, Bargnani, Howard and have the answers to all of our questions!
I can imagine the fallout now – in the summer of 2012, Dwight Howard gets fed up and joins the Heat :D
Unfortunately unless BC goes, which I don’t think is happening, I can’t see Andrea going anywhere either. So again, for me it comes down to his use on the team, something I TRIED to discuss with Triano last night, but ultimately turned into a “probably better asked the next day when he calmed down after a bad loss” question…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Fire that $%&* up!
Trade Bargs now. If we can get Barbosa for Hedo’s pizza-stuffed corpse, some sucker GM will give us WAY too much for Barney. He has got to go before the ship can be righted, because he is part of the problem and not part of the solution.
by RaptorsAddict on Jan 27, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Draft Thread Needed bec looking to future is more fun than the Raps present state
There should be a thread put up every week examining who Raps sould be looking at in the Draft based on the mocks. This week we have the 4th pick and Terrence Jones would be my choice if he’s still on the board and Irving, Perry and Sullinger are already gone.
IF Kawhi Leonard is still there when the Miami picks comes around he’d def be my choice but after lastnight’s game he’s going to shoot up to late lottery position bec he’s looking real good out there. Chris Singleton is also another fav bec of his outstanding def and athleticism.
We need to leave the draft with a starting SF, C with some potential and a PG of any calibre bec we need another one.
My wish list for our 1st pick in particular order include:
Kyrie Irving
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Jared Sullinger
Enes Kanter
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Singleton
Brandon Knight
Harrison Barnes
2nd first round pick 27th:
CJ Leslie
Travis Leslie
Kris Joseph
Kyle Singler
Alec Burks
2nd round pick:
Renardo Sidney
David Lightly
Malcom Lee
Bojan Bogdanovic
2nd Round Pick
I believer that it belongs to the Pistons
Detroit Pistons
Credits
2011 second round draft pick from Denver
The less favorable of Denver’s 2011 2nd round pick and Portland’s own 2011 2nd round pick to Detroit [Denver – Detroit, 7/13/2009]
2011 second round draft pick from Toronto
Toronto’s own 2011 2nd round pick to Detroit [Detroit – Toronto, 6/15/2007]
Totally agree - lets talk draft at least once a week - makes me feel good inside
Seriously, let’s look at the silver lining – the draft.
I like most of Member 29’s picks, but need to do a little more digging for a few steals.
Jimmer, although I don’t think we have a need for him, is fun to watch. Looking at him, he reminds me of the Rudy movie.
kanter
How good is this guy? Is he a legit center? I see his scouting reports and they look pretty good, even though he’s listed at 6;9"….
by untouchable_21 on Jan 27, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Who knows?
Total gamble. No other way to look at it.
by RaptorsAddict on Jan 27, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely.
We could even do a “Euro Focus” to see what Euro gems BC can dig up.
Plus, there is probably a good chance we’ll have more picks come draft time, assuming we unload a few guys before the deadline.
by RaptorsAddict on Jan 27, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
A draft thread is ABSOLUTELY needed
I think we’ve run this current team through the grinder enough to know pretty much everything there is to expect (aside from guys like Ajinca obviously), so time to focus on the future some more.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Various points
First, and most importantly, thank-you Franchise for taking the bullet, so to speak, and ask a tough question. I was watching the post-game and Jay did not look impressed. When they get back to full strength, you should head back down there and ask the same question. That way Jay can’t provide the injury cop-out.
I rip Bargnani ALOT, but the reality is that he is our most talented player. He’s the only one that can draw a consistent double team, and there are not alot of guys in this league that can do that. On this team, aside from Derozan (lately) and maybe Barbosa (occasionally), nobody else is capable of drawing a double. So, until we find players with his level of talent, we shouldn’t get rid of him.
Most good teams have at least 3 offensively talented players and then surround them with guys that complement their skill set. Our 3 most talented players right now are:
Bargnani
Derozan
Calderon
The hope is that Davis will evolve into one of these type of players, maybe even Amir or Bayless, but nobody else we have is more talented than those 3 right now. We have a 1st round pick that should be pretty good, so we can hopefully add a name to this mix and maybe bump one of those 3 (probably Calderon as age-wise he doesn’t fit long term). So for better or worse, these are the guys you have to build around right now. To me, getting a real defensive achor at C and a defensive SF that can knock down jumpers is the best way to go, given the skills of our most talented guys. Is that team a title contender? Absolutely not, but you have to start somewhere, and until you field a team that isn’t flawed in so many ways, you can’t really evaluate what you have.
As for Johnson, Buddahfan pretty much nailed his skills. I’d add that while his defensive rebounding is average at best, his offensive rebounding is very good. Can he play the 3? Defensively, I think he could. But offensively he’d struggle because while his shot is better, he can only hit set shots, and his handle in traffic is suspect to say the least. On a contender, I think Johnson could be a very effective 3rd or 4th big. All he really lack for the position is size, both height and weight.
Finally, yes please let’s talk draft! It’s about time to start previewing potential picks. We need to find something positive to talk about.
Playing The Three
First of all it is a myth that your three has to be a great scorer to win world championships.
Look at the Spurs and Lakers title teams over the last decade. None of their #3s was a great scorer but they could defend.
As far as Johnson having a more of a set shot then a jump shot that is true. However his scoring has gone up to 11 ppg in January while shooting 65% from the field and 84% from the foul line. This is on 29 mpg.
I don’t think it is far fetched to suggest that as 4th option of offense that he could average 14 -15 ppg as a SF. He has shown he can beat his man off the dribble with his left or right hand. Besides he hasn’t started shooting threes yet. People laugh but think about this. He is now making 20 foot jump shots from the top of the key with pretty good regularity. The three point line is 23 feet and 9 inches. So he only has another four feet or so go to where he will be at the distance of where most corner threes are shot from. People may scoff but whoever thought he would shoot 80% from the free throw line and close to 40% from between 16 and 23 feet. In fact the last three seasons he has shot 38%, 43% and 39% so far from between 16 – 23 feet
Extending his range to beyond the three point line is not as ridiculous as some might think
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Amir%20Johnson
That is handles are suspect is open to debate.
Are they as good as some of the better #3s in the league. Of course not.
However if you look his usage and his turnover rate his usage has gone up over the last several years and his turnover rate has simultaneously gone down.
In fact his turnover % has dropped every season he has been in the league and is now down to 12.6%
There are currently 69 players in the NBA who have played over 1,000 minutes and have a higher turnover % than Johnson does and some of the players on that list are pretty impressive.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsam01.html
Now I am in no way suggesting that Johnson become the 1st, 2nd or 3rd scoring option but as a 4th option where he won’t be double teamed I see no reason that he can’t add 4 more ppg to his current ppg amount in January.
Most basketball fans don’t realize that when Johnson was in high school and in the D-League he did not play with back to the basket on offense. He played from the wing facing the basket. It was the Pistons who converted him into a back to basket low post player.
I don’t know that anyone proclaims you need a scoring 3, so much as a scoring wing. Historically, how many great scoring 3s have there been? Most recently you’re seeing Lebron/Durant (not title-winners), but most of the primary scorers on recent champions have been 2s – Wade, Ginobili, Kobe. The other thing that these teams do is pair this scoring 2 with a complementary 3 – to take the harder perimeter assignment, and stretch the floor (Posey, Bowen, Ariza/Artest).
I can’t say for sure, but I think you’re stretching things regarding the effectiveness of Amir at the 3.
I don’t really think Amir would average 14-15 ppg as a SF. He would have to play upwards of 37 minutes at his current pace to do that, and it’s not actually possible if you project out his foul rate. I don’t really feel a switch to SF would be a net benefit as he already shoots an impressive ~60%. And do you think his handle will improve to the point where he can beat 3s (not 4s) off the bounce with regularity?
I’m really skeptical that he’d be particularly useful in half-court sets on either end. His best offensive skill isn’t ball handling, facilitating, posting up, or spot up shooting – it’s aggressively attacking the basket and crashing the boards in scrambled situations. You can’t really leverage that if he’s planted at the 3 point line, and I can easily imagine defenders sagging off of him and making life tough on a slasher like Derozan. You make developing 3 point range sound relatively simple, but look at how many vets have never developed it or even lost range. Bosh is one of the best jump-shooting bigs and he wasn’t particularly great from deep – nor did we want him to be taking those types of shots when he could attack and get himself to the line.
Then, there’s the issue of defense – and how your “position” is usually dictated by what you can guard, not what you do offensively. I wonder if he could survive out on the perimeter for long stretches. But it’s an interesting proposition because he was originally touted as more of a big, athletic SF with unrefined skill who just entered before getting the proper college seasoning. I was initially surprised when he arrived as he’s been mostly a power player during his time here. Maybe the finesse is just waiting to be unleashed???
Mayo suspended 10 games!
He tested positive for DHEA. He said he got it from an over the counter supplement (better known as the Rashard Lewis defense).
That is going to kill his trade value!
Wow
Just when the OJ value-meter didn’t seem to able to regress any more!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jan 27, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
3rd Quarter Game Flow
The 76ers essentially took control of the game during the first half of the third quarter.
Here are the game flow numbers during that period
Jrue Holiday – Min 10, FG 2- 6, Assists 4, Off Reb 3, +/- +10
J. Meeks – Min 6, FG 0 – 2, +/- +7
S. Hawes – Min 10, FG 0 – 3, FT 1 – 2, Off Reb 1, +/- +10
E. Brand – Min 10, FG 2 – 3 Off Reb 0, +/- +10
A. Igoudala – Min 11.5, FG 5 – 5, Off Reb 1, +/- +8
So who went off during the 76ers game changing run?
Andre Igoudala – FG 5 for 5 and 10 points
J. Holiday – 4 Assists and 3 Offensive Rebounds
So there we have it once again. The Raptors get beat once again because of their lousy perimeter defense; i.e. Jose, Wright and Weems.
Raptors 3rd quarter numbers
DeRozan – Min 12, FG 2 – 6, FT 3 – 3, +/- Minus 8
Johnson – Min 10, FG 2 – 3 Reb 1, +/- Minus 10, (Notice that Johnson played Brand even in the 3rd period)
Calderon – Min 11, FG 2 – 4, FT 1 – 2, Assists 6, +/- Minus 10
Bargnani – Min 5, FG 1 – 2, Reb 1, +/- Minus 9
Wright – Min 2, FG 0 – 1, Assist 1, +/- Minus 4
Weems – Min 8, FG 2 – 4, Reb 2, +/- Minus 6
Conclusion – In the 3rd quarter Igoudala went off on Wright and Weems and Jose or the zone allowed Holiday to get offensive rebounds. That is why the Raptors lost.
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110126&game=PHITOR
At a boy Franchise!! Way to stick it to Triano. You know that Jay is BC’s puppet, right? He probably could not say anything bad about Andrea b/c his boss is watching. Anways, I started posting my NBA’s Worst to First Countdown for the month of January. The Raptors are at number 27 dropping to spots from last month. Pls telll me if I missed anything or there is something else I should add. Peace.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Jan 27, 2011 6:31 PM EST reply actions
Excellent write up I must say
and brought forth some very interesting arguments with some hardcore raps fans. I will not argue the fact that andrea is a defensive sieve. That is a no brainer. I have to say that rapthoseleafs makes some valid points. Andrea will never be dirk, at least he provides some moderate defensive resistance and gives you rebounds on the defensive end. I dont expect bargs to get off boards out on the 3 point line but for god sakes, get us some defensive ones! Bargnani though with a true center that could cover up some defensive failings would be beneficial for sure. To be blunt, the guy is not dirk but TONI KUKOC! Same guy but younger. 6"10 afraid to get in the paint and get boards,defence sucked, same exact player. What did the bulls do? make him a 6th man,and if i recall he was 6th man of the year in 96. Bargnani is a sixth man and would make a good one but we need defensive presence so management needs to make a decision.
Also give davis more time. Everybody is saying he needs more size and blah blah. Throw him to the wolves and let him learn. We throw chris bosh out there at CENTER and he made davis look like hercules in his rookie season.
Bargnani is a sixth man
has generally been supported around here.
I would also mention Kukoc was an excellent ball handler and passer… closer to a Hedo than a Bargs (I really don’t see Bargnani bringing the ball up the floor and setting up a play)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 28, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Tough questions have to be good questions too.
“Is it tough to keep him (Bargnani) out there though when you’ve got a situation where someone like Speights is dominating inside, and he’s (Bargnani) is not putting points on the board?”
This is a leading question with that inevitably leads to a one word answer. You forgot your 5 W’s and H – ask tough, open-ended questions that get to the heart of the issue, that give your interview subject rope enough to hang themselves:
What options do you have when Bargnani’s shot isn’t falling and his effort is lacking on D? How do you motivate him to play defense against physically stronger opponents?
“But he (Bargnani) played quite a few minutes tonight…so you left him in…you were hoping he’d work his way out of it, out of the way they were guarding him essentially?”
Same thing – you’re leading Triano with your question, painting him into a corner and using a closed question that doesn’t allow for Triano to follow up. He could have just answered with one word – ‘Duh!’
Does the recent spate of injuries expose Toronto’s lack of defensive options? How do you motivate your players to perform when they’re physically over matched?
The final question is really just a straight up criticism of his in-game strategy. Even if you’re not mainstream media, you can still criticize with smart questions.
How do you compete at the NBA level having to play with a depleted line-up?
An interview shouldn’t be just a chance for you to complain – it’s a golden opportunity to see what your interview subject is made of, hold their feet to the fire, find out what makes them tick – all of which is easier said/written than done and is why journalism is a profession.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Raptors HQ
Related FanShots on Raptors HQ
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- C-a-C: This is probably as close to LeBron James working with John Waters as we’ll ever get
- Dwyane Wade’s hot pink pants: The kind of thing you can get away with when you drop 41
- Lamar Odom to New York? Dwight Howard on the move? For now, it’s all talk
