Tip-In: Halftime, San Antonio beats Toronto 104 to 95
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 8:02 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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PrintThe Raptors probably had no business being in this game, but for most of the middle, they lead the Spurs. Problem is, the Spurs remembered that they put up approximately 105 points per game. Vicious D has the recap.
We've now hit the halftime of the season and there's a lot of good and bad. In fact, this game might be the best encapsulation of all that's been good and bad this season.
Exhibit A: DeMar DeRozan
DeRozan has shown growth in trying to change up the way he scores and the way he gets to the basket. He's trying to be a more active part of the offense, but still gets burned a lot on the defense. When teams put pressure on DeRozan, he still isn't sure what to do and more importantly, he hasn't learned to exploit the free throw line to gain his room.
Exhibit B: Andrea Bargnani
Bargnani attempts to go to the inside and when he does, he often finds success. However, getting the Italian to do anything on a consistent basis is still a struggle. Gone is his attempt to attack the inside to start games, and with it, his trips to the foul line have disappeared. Sadly, Andrea Bargnani has done little to distinguish himself on the glass since Reggie Evans' injury and is now surpassed by the rookies on the team.
And it goes on from that. There are some areas of improvement in this team over the course of the season with their seasoned players, but it's not all that surprising to see the Raptors struggling to gain their third win of 2011. Especially once we factor in injuries.
While the Raptors have continued their January free fall, the change in the Raptors rotation has been really interesting to see over the past week thanks their weakened lineup. The emergence of Ed Davis and Julian Wright as reliable and interesting pieces may benefit the Raptors greatly in the long run.
Ed Davis seems to have hit a groove where he's becoming a very effective rebounder who has a good nose for the ball. He's challenged some shots and has also battled the opposition in the post for some tough rebounds. Against the Spurs, his work against DeJuan Blair and Antonio McDyess kept the Raptors competitive despite being out rebounded by 11 rebounds. In fact, when the Spurs completely demolished the Raptors on the offensive boards for second chance points, and Ed Davis was one of the few who managed to get any offensive rebounds to keep the Raptors competitive.
Julian Wright on the other hand, has been a personal favourite of mine and with his current play, it's not surprising to see why. Wright has been one of the best defenders on the Raptors and has been a pest against some of the best players in the league. In tonight's matchup, he managed to get Manu Ginobili to shoot 4-13 from the floor and even made a couple of searing hot passes. With some development, I could see Wright becoming a Doug Christie or Alvin Robertson for the team, albeit as a much weaker offensive threat. It's been so long since the Raptors have had a good-sized defensive wing player that the Raptors should take a real long look at Wright as he's a fairly inexpensive option.
Along with very magical performances from DeMar DeRozan and Sundiata Gaines, the Raptors kept themselves completely in a game that they didn't have much business being in. DeRozan scored a heap of points in the first half and Gaines played some inspired ball to make up for another lackluster performance from Jerryd Bayless. Bayless, who continues to make extremely poor decisions when passing the ball, was a complete ball hog who has shown little of the defensive prowess he claimed to care about when arriving in Toronto.
Despite their valiant effort though, the Raptors defensive woes reared their ugly head and fell apart.
Well, at least that's how Leo and Matt described it.
To hear the Raptors commentators talk about it, it was as if the Raptors put on a defensive clinic the likes of which we had never seen before. Instead, the Raptors come back from a 10 point deficit and built a healthy lead thanks to some timely substitutions, hot shooting, and some poor decision-making by the Spurs.
Yup, the Spurs themselves really shot themselves in the foot in the first half by settling for jumpers.
Nevertheless, that was not going to last long. By the time the second half rolled around, Gregg Popovich got his team playing some form of defense which stymied the Raptors and urged his club to continue to attack the Raptors defenseless interior. As a result, the Raptors just couldn't close the gap by more than 6 points in the fourth before tossing in yet another loss in 2011.
There was no doubt that the Raptors had a chance to close out this game with a win, but ultimately, they gave up too many second chance opportunities to the Spurs. Whether it was the Spurs' offensive rebounding, or the second half turnovers, the Raptors simply didn't have the refinement to keep the game competitive against the best team in the NBA.
I'm fine with that.
The effort was there for most of the team, and while a couple players were maddeningly inconsistent and downright detrimental to the team, the young core of the team seemed to take another large step forward. Tough games against tough opponents will continue to develop the youth of the Raptors and going forward, that should be the goal of this team. DeMar DeRozan now knows that he has to work on breaking double and triple teams. Ed Davis and Julian Wright know that they'll need to continue to work on their offense. That's what happens when you play one of the consistently top teams in the NBA.
It's a harsh lesson, but at the halfway point of the season, it's long overdue.
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Here's a suggestion for you,Franchise, Mas, Stranger and Stance
Why don’t you guys become pro-active. Instead of repeating over and over how bad Bargnani is and Triano and Colangelo, why don’t you guys start a Facebook page dedicated to getting rid of them. On top of that, start a petition to be sent to the team ownership that these three individuals need to be removed from the team. That way you would be doing something to correct what you see is the main problems with the team – a bloodless coupe so to speak.
That way, the rest of us might get a break.
Point taken.
But it’s hard to talk about this team without mentioning the player soaking up the most minutes, taking the most shots, and playing the least amount of defense. It’s not like Bargnani is operating in a bubble. His inefficient, lackadaisical play – especially the last couple of games – has a huge impact on the guys I’d rather be talking about (Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, Julian Wright, Joey Dorsey, Jose Calderon, etc).
On top of that, the fact that Bargnani is essentially treated like the spoiled child who is allowed to do anything he wants without consequences is particularly annoying to watch. He doesn’t get benched for putting up low percentage shots or completely giving up on defense. Here’s your pre-determined 40 minutes of playing time and 20+ shot attempts. Thanks for coming out!
As someone who has followed this team since day one, it’s becoming increasingly harder to watch.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
First off, I was trying to give us a break anyways. What could I say about his performance last night that was even somewhat redeeming?
So really, I have said nothing. We’ve talked ALL THE TIME about what he can do to be a better player. But even THAT has been rehashed over and over. I’m tired of talking about it.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Well
Basically, what you guys have said in response is that you want to continue to whine and complain. You could have said "yea good idea, let’s form a movement to get rid of these guys for the good of the team.
Do you really want them to dig up all the quotes about...
who should be traded, who is a keeper, and why certain players don’t get more minutes?
Because if you just READ, some of those things are right in this very wrap up but have been stated time and time again in other posts…
Reality is calling, are you going to answer?
KDFREATPED
Oh, and not to mention that NONE of us have any kind of REAL shot at getting through to Raptor management...
Except that Franchise and D-Stance actually talk to the ACTUAL Raptor’s coach, IN PERSON, and ask him some of these very questions…
So, what have YOU done lately other than chat on the internet?
KDFREATPED
Mikthaniel
I gather you are in the negative camp with Stance and company. Don’t worry about getting through to Raptor management, if you get the petition circulated to correct the teams ills, then I’ll get it to the top for you.
No camping equipment required...
I live in the poolhouse in the Raptor’s backyard…
I don’t need to be in any camp…
I am a thorough Raptor’s fan and think we are in a very nice position to be a deep playoff team in two years…
If we all survive the journey I look forward to sharing a toast with you then…
KDFREATPED
You talkin to me
If so I don’t understand your post
The fact that certain people are lightening rods for criticism is perhaps not the fault of the writers at RaptorsHQ, but the people themselves. There are 82 regular season games a year. If a someone does something poorly over and over again in most of those games, do you want the writers who write about the game to actually ignore it?
It seems to me that if you don’t want to read constant criticism of certain people, stop reading about a team that is on pace for 25 wins.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
sounds to me that
reality is starting to set in and you’d prefer not to hear or talk about it….
… well its a start, so is this the step after denial?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 20, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Not to mention the FIRST of the key points in this wrap up wasn't Bargs... it was Demar...
Along with praise for emerging talents like Davis and Wright…
If you want a blog that talks about pretty things like the Raptors Dance Pak then I suggest you start HERE
If you want to talk about the most relevant issues to team performance and progress, stay right where you are and be prepared to talk about the most obvious topic of concern (hold on now, concern can be a positive and a negative thing, so don’t claim I said “Bargnani is the team’s biggest problem”).
I am CONCERNED with how Bargnani fits best going forward… (I keep him but adjust his usage)
I am CONCERNED with how well Demar develops… (I LOVE how hard this kid works, he’ll get there)
I am CONCERNED with how good our stock of athletic, young, talented, big men look… (SWEET!)
I am CONCERNED that Triano will never see that a square peg only fits in the round hole when it is much smaller than the round hole… (Profound Statement of the Day)
My favourite post of mine in the last little bit…
mik… arent you a bargnani supporter?…
by untouchable_21 on Jan 19, 2011
I am a Raptors supporter…
I call every player on shitty play whenever it happens…
KDFREATPED
by Mikthaniel on Jan 19, 2011
ALL PLAYERS ARE ACCOUNTABLE…
Some players just have bigger numbers to do the accounting with…
KDFREATPED
Rrrrrright.....
I’m sure Colangelo bases his decisions on Facebook and petitions sent in by fans.
Last time I checked this site was dedicated to writing about what is happening with the Raptors.
Do you expect them to lie? Don’t shoot the messenger.
Send it to Colangelo if you want
I was talking ownership.
Anyway, you guys are just talk, thats why you find excuses not to say what you say here over and over and over to the people in control.
I’m pretty sure the target audience for this blog is fans; its purpose is entertainment.
by benjibopper on Jan 20, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
You’re joking right?
Franchise was one of the FEW people who truly questioned Colangelo at last year’s end of the year scrum. Go back and look into it.
We’ve been over analysing Bargnani for YEARS. The stats we put out, the suggestions we talk about, the line up changes and trades we think of all the time… Like I said at the beginning of the year, I’m sick of talking about it and so are the majority of fans. I’ve been QUITE scaled back in what I say about Bargnani this year because lots of readers have said how much they’re tired of talking about him.
And really. READ that paragraph I wrote about Bargnani. There’s already a roadmap in there for how Bargnani can be successful on this team. It’s not like I (and others) don’t have constructive criticism, but he’s not a rookie anymore and it’s tiring to keep saying the same thing over and over again.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I support Colangelo
Firstly, I don’t think you guys have any proof that he is directing the playing time on the team and secondly, it’s easy to criticize his moves but you don’t know what went on behind the scenes and he is working for an ownership that does not have the resources to compete with the top clubs in the league
The idea that Colangelo is strongly influencing who starts and gets playing time is an obvious conclusion to draw based on what has transpired so far this season. No, we haven’t tapped his phone line or overheard him threatening Jay Triano in a parking lot.
Secondly, if a corporate giant like MLSE doesn’t have the resources to compete with the top clubs in the league, I’m not sure who does? Toronto is NOT a small market. This is the 4th largest media market in North America. We’re not Memphis or Milwaukee, people…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Very interesting D Stance
I have made the point several times that it is the big spending teams that are winning championships. Yet a number of you either ignored that or come up with this stupid idea that they should not spend over the tax until this group is better so as to justify the spending ( makes no sense to me).
Now you indicate that the money is there,hmmm. If that’s the case why would anybody focus on Colangelo as the reason for us not having championship talent. Let Colangelo spend what Ainge does in Boston and guess what – we’re a top team.
Or let Colangelo spend what Ainge does in Boston and the Raptors turn into the Isiaih Thomas-led Knicks. Ultimately, a GM has to hitch his wagon to elite players like Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce… not Andrea Bargnani.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Always back to Bargs
So you are saying that if Colangelo had 35 million more last summer, he still would have the same team. Come on, give your head a shake
Still wouldn't have a Kobe, Lebron, D. Rose, Howard etc. etc. etc. all-star on the roster...
KDFREATPED
Arguing for the sake of arguing
Easy to make some “off the cuff” statement like that, but what shred of proof or common sense is there to saying something like that.
Just think about it for a minute. If the Raptors spend 20, 25, 30 or what ever million more on the roster, even a ******** could see the team would have much greater opportunity to be better.
Sure, ask the Yankees... money can buy talent no doubt...
But you know what the Yankees did BEFORE they had all the money to spend?
They developed a good product that the fans wanted to see, creating an environment where stars want to play and be a part of the franchise history…
If you have all that money and spend it on guys like Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, you’re screwed…
If you spend it all in one place ala the T’Wolves on Garnett or the Cavaliers on Lebron without building a good foundation for the organization, what’s the point?
History proves that Champions are built from the ground up, not by bringing in a single saviour…
It’s not an argument if you don’t have a valid point, it’s just a lesson…
Class dismissed…
KDFREATPED
The “problem” with the NBA is that while you can spend as much as you want but that doesn’t necessarily help in acquiring good players. You can spend over the cap when you already have your good players. If Toronto already had OKC’s roster then they could sign Durant, Westbrook et al to huge extensions and go way over the cap.
Realistically, you can only spend up to the cap in acquiring talent. After that you have exceptions or trades, but who is going to sign for an exception with a crappy team and what are you going to get in return if you have no talent to trade.
That is why people say there is no point going over the cap until a team has its main cornerstones in place.
History doesn't proove that at all
Three years ago Boston disprooved that and now Miami disprooves that
So Boston DIDN'T have a historic franchise before 3 years ago?
Miami hadn’t won a championship and had elite talent ON it’s roster before this year?
What brand of glue IS that you’re sniffing?
KDFREATPED
o my
Boston had nothing until they spent the money and brought on Allen, Garnet and kept Pierce. In one year they reversed their fortunes. In one season how have the Miami Heat changed their fortunes.
By the way Boston did that because the fans demanded it because they were not living up to their historic franchise image.
Right so you prove my point then...
Boston had a culture of greatness that deserved the spending to bring in elite talent (added to a current All-Star it should be noted)
And Miami brought in more All-Stars to play with their CURRENT All-Star… hmmm
So you mean if you have a foundation of winning, and an environment of success, along with All-Star talent, you can bring in more All-Star talent and win games…?
I thought that was what I said…thanks
KDFREATPED
Lets try it another way Mik
You take 65 mill and I’ll take 93 mill and we’ll see who has the better team 9 out of 10 times, when we’re done
FYI: Miami’s team salary is less Toronto’s this year. It’s just focused on 3 players. Unlike boston, who made trades to get their “Big 3” before going into the tax, Miami simply gutted their team by allowing all their contracts to expire, before getting 2 all-stars to join Wade. Next year they will go into the tax to surround these guys with better talent through their exceptions, but the important thing to note is that they got the talent first, and then went (will go) into the tax.
To quote a wise man...
Easy to make some "off the cuff" statement like that, but what shred of proof or common sense is there to saying something like that.
Raptball
and to quote a fool…
Boston had nothing until they spent the money and brought on Allen, Garnet and kept Pierce. In one year they reversed their fortunes. In one season how have the Miami Heat changed their fortunes.
Raptball
KDFREATPED
One thing missing
Both Boston and Miami already had an elite player on their roster. Having one of them makes it a lot easier to attract other star players.
The Raptors don’t have an elite player (not yet, anyway)
If the Raptors spend 20, 25, 30 or what ever million more on the roster, even a ******** could see the team would have much greater opportunity to be better.
by raptball on Jan 20, 2011
Have you taken any time at all to think about the Raptors current situation before you say that?
1) An abundance of GOOD young talent, athletic with good chemistry
2) An emerging force at the SG position
3) A top-level scoring talent (regardless of defensive ineptitude)
4) A top-level, professional PG prepared to do WHATEVER the organization needs him to do
5) Multiple trade assets (and valuable ones at that)
6) A not-insubstantial TPE
7) A city of fans that are used to supporting the team through tough times
8) Large contracts coming off the books in the next year
9) A top-ten (probably top 5) draft pick
10) The single most important topic (person) of discussion in the history of sports blogs
This team is in PRIME position to become great, AS IT IS, without having recklessly spent $10,$20,$30 dollars just for the sake of spending…
Had we spent that kind of money we may have gotten an extra 10 wins this season and got blown out of the first round of the playoffs… YAY! Great! … good for you…
KDFREATPED
Well two things
You seem to be patting Colangelo on the back here – not sure if you realize that and secondly you make another statement for which you have no logic to sustain when you pick the number 10 out of the air.
If it's all Colangelo's doing that the team is where it's at today, then ABSOLUTELY I'm patting him on the back...
and is unarguably true, I need no stats or evidence or even agreement to make this true…
Bargnani is the single greatest topic of sports blog discussion of all time… it’s obvious…
Nice to be agreeing with you…
KDFREATPED
Watch your back
There’s a lot of your coharts there who shit on Colangelo all the time
I should point out that Ainge acquired Allen for the #5 pick in the draft (Jeff Green) and cap filler (Szerbiak & West).
They then turned around and traded 5 players (headlined by Al Jefferson) and 2 first round picks for Kevin Garnett.
It was only at that point did they sign Garnett to an extension and go way into luxury tax territory picking up guys like James Posey (Mid-level exception) and PJ Brown (Bi-Annual exception).
To get the big three together, they pretty much gutted what they had, then had to rebuild through second round picks (Big Baby & Leon Powe), and the aforementioned free agent signings.
I’m not against doing this, but it isn’t as easy as you’ve implied, and until we get in that situation, it’s impossible to know whether or not MLSE would open up the coffers to pay the luxury tax in an attempt to field a championship calibre team.
Huh? So they didn't just open their wallets and buy talent?
It took a strategy, implementation of a plan and a bit of luck to achieve the overall goal?
Weird… who would have thought THAT would work…?
KDFREATPED
You can only spend a certain amount…They would have gone into the tax to resign Bosh if he wanted to stay. The only way to spend more than some other teams are willing is to resign your own players or to use the mid-level exception – like they did with Jack…MLSE will spend..
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 20, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
An obvious conclusion?
It could be an obvious conclusion that Jay has come up with his own decisions in consultation with his coaching staff on their own but I’m not.
You know, like how in interviews he tells us what direction he would like the team to go...?
And then the coach goes out and does exactly that…
That kind of leads to obvious conclusions, yea…
KDFREATPED
Or how in every sport, on every team, ever, in the history of sports...
Management has a plan, coach is told to implement said plan, coach succeeds and is rewarded or coach fails and is replaced…
Makes it pretty easy to conclude that Management has a direct influence over the coach’s decisions…
KDFREATPED
BC & MLSE
The idea that Colangelo is strongly influencing who starts and gets playing time is an obvious conclusion to draw based on what has transpired so far this season.
Can’t agree on your obvious conclusion. Colangelo has some impact – by the people he drafts & their associated paychecks. But if Jay & BC are on the same page, then they’re looking beyond this year. It could very well be why Kleiza gets the court time he has, with Toronto trying to improve his marketability.
If they stick Wright in the starting lineup (sans injuries), then a message will make its’ way to the other GM’s – and Kleiza’s value will drop. That being said, Linus’ play recently is not helping the cause.
I keep hearing, in some form or another, a similar question: What is up BC’s sleeve , and what direction is this franchise going (aka – why doesn’t Brian tell us). I can’t really believe that any reporter or fan, expects to get a true picture, when it comes to Raptor strategy. Unless Wikileaks gets into action, we can only surmise. We have short memories I guess – recall the whole Chandler / Jose fiasco. That trade got f*@ked up because word got out.
Secondly, if a corporate giant like MLSE doesn’t have the resources to compete with the top clubs in the league, I’m not sure who does?
MLSE is a company mostly controlled by the Teachers. It is responsible for the security of their pension, and as such, money comes first. R.O.I. overrides most any other thoughts – stupid or intelligent – that we may have. MLSE have the resources, unfortunately, they don’t have the will. And until that changes, Raptors will be play-off bubble material.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
How do you know MLSE won’t spend? Have they come out and said this?
You’re correct that nobody here has any proof that Colangelo is influencing Triano; it’s pure speculation.
However, you are doing the same thing when you say MLSE won’t pay into the tax.
I’m not saying that I think they will (I don’t), but you’re guilty of speculating too.
Nobody here knows all of what is going on behind the scenes at the player, coach, management or ownership level. All we can do is take what little information we have and extrapolate. When new information is introduced, we take that into account as well.
If we only commented on things that we had all the information about, this would be a pretty dull web page, and I suspect neither you nor I would frequent it.
2 things
- Colangelo influencing Triano – is speculation.
- MLSE not going into Luxury Tax Land – is not speculation. They haven’t. And if I was a betting man, I’d say we have another 2 – 3 years of the same. I’d love to be wrong on this, but ….
With a couple of exceptions, the Luxury tax teams featured the best teams (ie. play-off teams). Here’s the 2009-10 list, followed by the ranking in their conference (and play-offs):
- Lakers (1st – West) … Champion
- New York (11th – E) … long suffering, and long over budget (Isiah can you sing)
- Boston (4th – East) … Finalist
- Dallas (2nd – W) … First round
- San Antonio (8th – W) … Conf. semi-finalist
- Orlando (2nd – E) … Conf. Finals
- Cleveland (1st – East) … Conf. semi-finalist (LeBron choked)
- Washington (14th – E) … 2nd exception
- Utah (4th – W) … Conf. semi-finalist
- Denver (5th – W) … First round (they choked)
- Phoenix (3rd – W) … Conf. finals with One-eyed Steve …. almost.
It’s always been my contention, that you need to spend into the Luxury tax land, in order to win. Not when you’re ready, but before you get there. The current CBA is a convoluted mess, but for teams in the tax zone, they have more assets to trade, and hence, a greater ability to make trades. The more chips you have, the greater the stakes can be. Luxury teams can pick up significant pieces (even if they over-pay), more readily than a team that is not (in the tax). Forget the talent side of it. This is sport accounting with a twist.
If we only commented on things that we had all the information about, this would be a pretty dull web page, and I suspect neither you nor I would frequent it.
Yes it would. However, I’d really like to see more analysis on our assets (TPE & such). The trade deadline is fast approaching, and while I can’t begin to read every blog, I have trouble finding debate on these tradeable assets, and who might want them.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I would like to be permanently added to the formal group of those who are “repeating over and over how bad Bargnani is”. Thanks
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
HAHAHA!
Love that one! Dude, you’re in. Welcome to the club. We only have one rule:
1) Unicorns don’t exist! (it’s a joke from last night’s in game chat, which boils down to – you have to believe in reality)
I thought Ive worked hard enough to be recognized in the “light a fire under bargs’ ass” club. hopefully, readers will start adding my name to list of “haters” lol
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
ONE Paragraph out of over FOURTEEN mentions Bargnani...
And all you can see is that one paragraph?
Wow, talk about taking the issue personally and not thinking about the situation rationally…
Here’s a suggestion for you,Franchise, Mas, Stranger and Stance
Why don’t you guys become pro-active. Instead of repeating over and over how bad Bargnani is and Triano and Colangelo, why don’t you guys start a Facebook page dedicated to getting rid of them. On top of that, start a petition to be sent to the team ownership that these three individuals need to be removed from the team. That way you would be doing something to correct what you see is the main problems with the team – a bloodless coupe so to speak.
That way, the rest of us might get a break.
by raptball
So essentially the only thing I should take away from your entire comment is:
“Bargnani is dedicated to be removed from the team. You correct bloodless might.”
I like this selective reading stuff…
KDFREATPED
One paragraph
.
Listen Mik (and the Gang) – you have your point (not plural – it’s always the same guy, same shit), and you keep making it. You’ve bullied most out of the game thread – or maybe most are just tired of feeling like some Christian in the Lions’ den. You berate those who disagree, because we live in the land of f*@king Unicorns.
.
By the way DS, Bargnani played horsesh!t, and I have no problem acknowledging that. Even though he pulled down more than 3-4 rebounds, his effort was lacking and it showed – with the exception of guarding Duncan. Is he playing injured ….. Don’t know. Jose & him are not practicing, so I have to wonder. Is he playing too much – YES. Reality is – we really don’t have much to fall back on, and part of me thinks there’s more to this (then some direction from BC). Should Dorsey have played more – probably. Maybe Jay is trying to embarass Andrea into giving more.
Raps can’t play Davis too much – that’s how we mess up our draft picks. Plus Ed needs to work on his Offense. Amir has to still be hurting – and a part of me thinks this season is somewhat of a write-off for him. He’s shown his fortitude, maybe now it’s time to give his back some love, so to speak.
.
raptball (and a few others such as I), may not have the same level of BBall IQ, but we’d wish – or at least I would – like to see this team make its’ painful progression to respectability, without pointing out every single fault. We believe that there are many (issues) on this team – besides Bargnani. We also believe Ed will get there. And that Shooting Guard Demar – despite his “as poor” defensive abilities, lack of 3 pt shooting (we’re last remember), and bull in a china shop charges – we still see his upside. And despite that our 2 other Bigs (Demar & Davis) can’t handle real Bigs (yet), we still see their upside.
.
It’s not about being delusional. It’s about suffering with some dignity. Watching mistake after mistake, and yet, still seeing progress. It’s about not having some statistic beat us over the head on minute-by-minute basis.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
What's my ONE point? I'm curious...
This?
Raptor Diagnosis by Position…
First – Small Forward
Prognosis
Kleiza needs to have less minutes, which he finds insulting, and wants to leave…
Julian Wright is a keeper (first off the bench at the SF)
Must acquire legitimate talent to start at this position (see Gerald Wallace for TPE above) or draft well (Terrence Jones maybe?)
Sonny MAY prove to be a valuable role player on a DEEP bench… if he improves his D…
Second – Center
Prognosis
Bargnani is a very palpable scorer and should stay at the Center position moving forward…
Given the right supporting cast he may even be able to keep his starting position…
A legitimate force in the paint is required, especially right now when the perimeter defense is so porous…
A double-headed monster inside (Gasol-Bynum, Shaq-Garnett) is a force to contend with…
We currently sit at about a 3/4 headed monster…
Maybe Greg Oden for TPE can be had, Perkins is a Free-Agent next year…
Wait and see…
Third – Shooting Guard
Demar is the future…
He works hard, has Kobe on speed dial, is smart, and genuinely cares about improving…
Barbosa is a trade piece…
Bayless is not a 2-Guard (not really a PG either though, huh, conundrum)
Kleiza, Evans, Barbosa, Weems, Dorsey (once we get a solid C) are all valuable pieces that should be able to net us a quality SG and other key pieces…
Fourth – PG
Jose is fantastic… Jose is frail…
Bayless is a lifer at backup on whatever team he plays…
Either through the Draft or in a trade Jose’s successor needs to be acquired…
A creative distributor with the ability to keep most opponents in front of him…
Jose has been terrific and if nothing else, totally professional, his entire tenure with the Raptors… He would make a great mentor for a young, pass-first style PG to replace him…
Fifth – Power Forward
Nothing really to say…
We’re stacked… Guys will improve… No changes required… Beautiful to watch…
Best part about being a Raptor fan right now…
or this?
That game is a great example…
I wonder how many NY bloggers were saying Amare was the worst player on their team when Bargs scored 40+ points?
or maybe it’s this?
Have you taken any time at all to think about the Raptors current situation before you say that?
1) An abundance of GOOD young talent, athletic with good chemistry
2) An emerging force at the SG position
3) A top-level scoring talent (regardless of defensive ineptitude)
4) A top-level, professional PG prepared to do WHATEVER the organization needs him to do
5) Multiple trade assets (and valuable ones at that)
6) A not-insubstantial TPE
7) A city of fans that are used to supporting the team through tough times
8) Large contracts coming off the books in the next year
9) A top-ten (probably top 5) draft pick
10) The single most important topic (person) of discussion in the history of sports blogs
This team is in PRIME position to become great, AS IT IS, without having recklessly spent $10,$20,$30 dollars just for the sake of spending…
still not it?
gotta be this then…
If you want to talk about the most relevant issues to team performance and progress, stay right where you are and be prepared to talk about the most obvious topic of concern (hold on now, concern can be a positive and a negative thing, so don’t claim I said "Bargnani is the team’s biggest problem").
I am CONCERNED with how Bargnani fits best going forward… (I keep him but adjust his usage)
I am CONCERNED with how well Demar develops… (I LOVE how hard this kid works, he’ll get there)
I am CONCERNED with how good our stock of athletic, young, talented, big men look… (SWEET!)
I am CONCERNED that Triano will never see that a square peg only fits in the round hole when it is much smaller than the round hole… (Profound Statement of the Day)
ALL PLAYERS ARE ACCOUNTABLE…
Some players just have bigger numbers to do the accounting with…
KDFREATPED
Great points
.
There are a lot of great thoughts in your post, a good number of them that I’m in agreement with. The trouble I have, is that these excellent points get lost in some of the bashing that I continually hear – and that’s directed at a number of people.
.
Hell … Your Raptor Diagnosis by Position has me so confused, I’m almost ready to cancel your membership in the Group of Seven. Fact is, you think more like me, but I would never have thought that was possible. Granted, if I read every Game Thread post, I’d probably know that. And that’s my point – your analysis gets lost too often. Probably with a number of readers as well.
.
I realize some people think I see Unicorns in my sleep, when it comes to Bargnani. What I do get frustrated with, and see as his biggest weakness (not rebounding or help-defense), is his lack of effort at times. I think that can be corrected. How that gets achieved, I don’t know. Mostly though, I see a raw talent with much more upside than has been shown – delusional as that may be.
Injuries are screwing up the Coach’s job, because his ability to sit guys is pretty much non-existent. Jay has to balance out a losing mentality (and how it affects the young players), with the developmental challenge that exists with such a young team. There is no prize – as most likely he’ll be gone when the “fruit ripens”.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnani
Whether you are a supporter or detractor you have to admit that Bargnani’s last two games have stunk. In both games it would have helped the Raptors chances a lot to have cut 10 minutes off Bargnani’s PT and sent Dorsey out there to rebound the ball and use up some of his six fouls. It probably would have helped Bargnani’s play, too, as he seems to perform the best when he plays 30-35 minutes per game(I have not stats to back up that statement just my anecdotal observations).
On a positive note, I think performances like last night show that earlier in the season Bargnani has really had some good games. Hopefully he gets back on track because when he is on he can be really useful.
Julian Wright sweats it out!
This is a pretty pointless and random observation, but has anyone else noticed how much Julian Wright sweats when he plays. Every time I saw him come back to the bench last night he looked drenched. That’s the kind of effort you love to see from your energy guys!
Note to Triano: keep giving Wright minutes.
lol.
Notice how he and Evans are the two sweatiest guys? :)
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Sweatiest players
Is “sweatiest players” an advanced stat line or something? lol
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
SPP (Sweat per Pound) – A measurement of salt water dispersement relative to the weight of a player. Measured in 1 liter buckets per game.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
one question:
what is bargnani’s spp?
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
I’m pretty sure it’s a negative number. He actually absorbs sweat from other guys.
by benjibopper on Jan 20, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
haha! im sure those 3 inch jumps he does for rebounds must take a lot of gas out of him though…
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know anything about Troy Murphy's game...
But we could use the TPE on him and have a Double-Double Center…
Then sign him for cheap next year if he likes the minutes…
Hate to see the TPE end up wasted…
KDFREATPED
I’d wait til the draft to make that move. Maybe the Raptors could get a pick out of it somehow(NJ has a bunch of picks).
He does not play defense, So no.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
Oden would be pretty awesome! Id love to get him for cheap!
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Come on brother… How could you even concieve of bringin in another jumpshooting, no defense playing forward to this team…
Sorry just realized you said you don't know if he plays D...
Trust me, he doesn’t.
Despite his defensive shortcomings, I really don’t understand why he gets so little usage in Jersey. He rebounds and scores. Those should be useful things on any team, particularly a bad one.
by benjibopper on Jan 20, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
coaches and management
were concerned about his work ethic…. wouldn’t that be amazing to have here.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 20, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
He’s basically good at trailing the play and hitting the open three. He’d end up bumping into Bargnani half the time.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Murphy’s thought process trailing the play: “what?” “theres already a 7 foot camper here?” “Then why am i here?”
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
on another note
Looks like derozan is gonna busy during all-star weekend. For sure he’s gonna be playing in the rook-sophmore game, and realgm.com reported that he’s in the dunk contest replacing Brandon jennings. I think its gonna be a blake vs. Derozan final.
by sherwin316 on Jan 20, 2011 11:40 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Raptor Diagnosis by Position...
First – Small Forward
Prognosis
Kleiza needs to have less minutes, which he finds insulting, and wants to leave…
Julian Wright is a keeper (first off the bench at the SF)
Must acquire legitimate talent to start at this position (see Gerald Wallace for TPE above) or draft well (Terrence Jones maybe?)
Sonny MAY prove to be a valuable role player on a DEEP bench… if he improves his D…
Second – Center
Prognosis
Bargnani is a very palpable scorer and should stay at the Center position moving forward…
Given the right supporting cast he may even be able to keep his starting position…
A legitimate force in the paint is required, especially right now when the perimeter defense is so porous…
A double-headed monster inside (Gasol-Bynum, Shaq-Garnett) is a force to contend with…
We currently sit at about a 3/4 headed monster…
Maybe Greg Oden for TPE can be had, Perkins is a Free-Agent next year…
Wait and see…
Third – Shooting Guard
Demar is the future…
He works hard, has Kobe on speed dial, is smart, and genuinely cares about improving…
Barbosa is a trade piece…
Bayless is not a 2-Guard (not really a PG either though, huh, conundrum)
Kleiza, Evans, Barbosa, Weems, Dorsey (once we get a solid C) are all valuable pieces that should be able to net us a quality SG and other key pieces…
Fourth – PG
Jose is fantastic… Jose is frail…
Bayless is a lifer at backup on whatever team he plays…
Either through the Draft or in a trade Jose’s successor needs to be acquired…
A creative distributor with the ability to keep most opponents in front of him…
Jose has been terrific and if nothing else, totally professional, his entire tenure with the Raptors… He would make a great mentor for a young, pass-first style PG to replace him…
Fifth – Power Forward
Nothing really to say…
We’re stacked… Guys will improve… No changes required… Beautiful to watch…
Best part about being a Raptor fan right now…
KDFREATPED
I dont think theres too many positions to fill other than a starting 3 and 5.
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
lol I just thought it would be easier to read in one sentence than in a 500 word essay :p
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
ONE Paragraph out of over FOURTEEN mentions Bargnani…
And all you can see is that one paragraph?
KDFREATPED
Today maybe
.
Mik … for the most part, there’s a thesis written on Bargnani every time the Raptors play a game.
I dont think theres too many positions to fill other than a starting 3 and 5.
I think Mik meant an eventual Starting line-up with a new (drafted) PG, and a SF. Or did I read this all wrong?
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Whats most frustrating here
is over the course of the year(s) people who haven’t fully supported Bargnani have had to listen to excuses, half truths and misinformation. Told that we are simply wrong, we are idiots, don’t know what we are talking about. Words put in our mouths, exagerations made about our statements. That we have no credibility or worse, we are racist or biased.
And now that what some have been saying is becoming more and more clear…that at the very least we are not idiots and that we are not racists, and that our only bias is towards hard work….. we are told we should be quiet or go elsewhere.
That said… I’m curious as to what happens after Bargs next ‘good’ game…..
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 20, 2011 12:02 PM EST reply actions
Oh trust me
As long as we’re around, you’re welcome to talk about Bargs… I just refuse to really get into it, but you know the rest of the HQ is ready to go.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
and the flip side
is over the course of the year people have had to listen to half truths, misinformation and just out right lies about Andrea coming from those that hate the guy. Prime example, saying Harngody destroyed Andrea when it has been proven that just wasn’t the case but that hasn’t stopped some from continuing the lie.
So now he has 2 bad games where he is clearly injured, hence not being able to hit his shots because he is overcompensating for his injures and not having the mobility to play bruising D you start to crow about something becoming more and more clear is a joke. You and others seem to think that these 2 games nullify the other games he has played in, that these last 2 games are the measuring stick we use now to determine who Andrea is as a basketball player? That is a fracking joke and only confirms that you and others have a bias.
I guess Jay is lying when he says that Andrea has been playing injured all year, right?
Did the NBA suddenly nullify Harangody’s stats in the same way they took away the Heisman from Reggie Bush? Make it magically disappear and pretend it never happened? Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that.
I think this latest “Andrea is injured” excuse is laughable – if the guy is so injured, why is he playing?! Apparently, the injury is so serious that he’s able to play 35-42 minutes per game over the last few contests while chucking up over 20 shots per game.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Well yea, Jordan got 48 points with the flu...
Obviously it’s because Bargnani is just as good…
KDFREATPED
It's definately not his shootig arm that's injured!!
Has he been injured for the last 4.5 years? Because he’s NEVER played anything close to good defense or rebounded. What a joke.
Put your money where your mouth is big boy. Go and watch the Harangody game again and let me know when he scored his points. If you had even a touch of integrity you would acknowledge that the majority came when Andrea was on the bench or when he was not his cover. So why do you lie and misrepresent what actually happened?
If you think the Injury is an excuse than it reaffirms my believe that you don’t know much about this game. The very fact Andrea was been shooting very well this season and in these 2 games can’t hit the broad side of a barn tells me there is something wrong. If you can’t see that than that’s on you and maybe you should strive to be a little more objective in your observations.
As for why he is playing, my take is he a soldier and will do what the coach asks him to do without complaining. Without Andrea on the floor, this team does not score the basketball very well, his very presence opens up the floor for his teammates at least given the team an opportunity to win.
And seriously,
"The very fact Andrea was been shooting very well this season and in these 2 games can’t hit the broad side of a barn tells me there is something wrong."
Bargnani is shooting 46% on the season, and 44% over his career. That’s shooting the ball VERY well? I’m not even bringing the fact that he’s a 7 foot centre into the equation. Good 7 foot centres usually post 50% + shooting percentages.
Ummmm
Dirk is having an astounding year, no doubt. But his record from the previous years is as follows:
- 2007-08 … .479
- 2008-09 … .483
- 2009-10 … .486
He also makes 17.3 million dollars, as opposed to Andrea’s 8.5 mil. Bargnani is not your traditional Center (no doubt), nor is his .807 free throw average – good for 3rd best amongst Starting Centers.
.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of this from the Sun....
Do you still think it is laughable?
“Bargnani suffered through his third poor shooting night of the trip. Granted his troublesome knees were bad enough that he had to sit out practice on Tuesday, something he doesn’t like to do, but Bargnani didn’t want to use that as an excuse.
But watching him hobble to the bus with enough ice strapped around his legs to keep the team beer chilled all the way to Florida, there was no way it couldn’t have factored in."
Read more: http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/01/20/toronto-raptors-morning-coffee-jan-20/#ixzz1BcRDcB5S
Good catch, guy needs some rest...
Seeing as wins don’t matter right now, he should sit out a few…
Not saying this as a slight or dig… seriously he should rest and get back to healthy because wins aren’t the goal right now, the future is…
KDFREATPED
and for those who missed it... (all y'all Pro-Bargs)
That was me saying I think we win more games with Bargnani than without him…
OOoooooohhhh… did I just say that?
pfffft
KDFREATPED
I agree 100%
He should sit for a couple weeks and also not participate in any basketball over the summer, rest up, go to some big man camps and get rested.
What I think is getting missed though that the kid is a trooper and will not complain or give excuses for his bad games.
Hey man, I've said repeatedly he didn't ask to be this poster-child he has been burdened with...
He is who he is, and plays when he’s told…
I don’t think he’s pulled a Brett Favre and refused to let the coach take him out of the game…
KDFREATPED
I’ll say it again: if Bargnani is THAT injured, why on earth is he playing upwards of 40 minutes every game while a guy like Joey Dorsey (the PERFECT matchup for a guy like DeJuan Blair) is barely getting one minute of playing time?! This makes no logical sense to anyone.
Plus, Ed Davis is healthy and could easily pick up minutes.
Sorry, I’m not buying what Triano or the Toronto Sun are selling.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
... not so - Not so
… over the course of the year(s) people who haven’t fully supported Bargnani have had to listen to excuses, half truths and misinformation.
I think what happens, is that those Fans/Posters who are displeased pissed having issues with Andrea, are sent into orbit by “King Barney” rants.
.
Personally, I think there are some very intelligent ideas out there. And if one removes some of the bias, it gets even more intelligent.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
its doesn't apply to all
but there are many who do… you know who they are and aren’t.
I don’t want to paint everyone with a brush…
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 20, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
You guys could get into thee Guiness Book of Records
Most ways to say Bargnani sucks
a quote from above
“Words put in our mouths”
Bargnani doesn’t suck… he doesn’t try.
He has shown no signs of wanting to or being willing to change that himself. Management and staff have shown no willingness to force/create an atmosphere to change that.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 20, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
This really must be Parade Day for the Bargnani Disapprovers Society
It is not that you disapprove of his game, it is that there seems to be some expectation of superheroism from Bargnani to the point where any positives he brings to the team are dismissed and the negatives are made to be the only thing worth talking about. My issue with your stance in particular stems from the NY game in particular where you totally disregarded that the man put up 40 points and harped incessantly about the +/-. Otherwise, I can appreciate your viewpoint without agreeing.
With regards to effort, I’m going to pull an example from another sport to maybe highlight how effort doesn’t always come in one form.
Jim Edmunds vs. Devon White (baseball)
Jim Edmunds would track a ball in centre field, get a beat on it, and always seem to have to make a diving catch which would end up on the highlight reels.
Faced with a similar catch, Devon White would gauge the ball effectively get to the spot where it would be landing and wait for it to land in his glove. On occasion he would make the spectacular catch but he made a lot of what would otherwise be spectacular look easy.
Before he landed with the Blue Jays he had a reputation as player who wouldn’t always give his all.
Edmunds would go on to get a reputation as a full effort guy even though honestly I believe he intentionally made things look harder than they should have been.
Back to the Raptors
I still don’t think fans give Bargnani enough credit for trying and are quick to dismiss him as lazy. I think part of the problem is that the Raps don’t really talk on defence. The Celts are great on defence because in between his trash talking, Garnett is probably ALWAYS talking. The good defensive teams are the ones who communicate on defence. If the Raptors find a way to communicate more effectively the defence should get better. Charlotte was a great defensive team last year, but the same players aren’t performing as well on that end and one has to wonder why, given that Chandler didn’t really play for them with his injuries.
Anyway, one last point
Has anyone noticed just how bad a lot of team records are so far this year?
The “surging” Clippers are what .. 16 and 25, even “playoff aspirants” in both conferences, Knicks and Phoenix come to mind, are barely at 500. This could go down as one of the poorer years in NBA history with regards to team win-loss records.
I watched a bit of Orlando last night and they didn’t strike me as scary by any means. For all the lamenting we do as raptors fans about the teams poor prospects for the future, it really isn’t THAT bad considering they aren’t that far off from other teams. For instance, let the line up with Julian Wright starting find it’s rhythm and I fully expect Bargs to return to form and suddenly we have a team that is keeping it close against supposed upper echelon teams. Getting to the fourth quarter being only 3 or so points back makes games winnable eventually, and one can say that if Bargs was just Bargs the last couple of games that the team might have won both games. But if they had done that people would be complaining about the team aiming for mediocrity instead of securing the top 5 pick needed to win in this league.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Jan 20, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
This really must be Parade Day for the Bargnani Disapprovers Society
VERY FIRST POST
Here’s a suggestion for you,Franchise, Mas, Stranger and Stance
Why don’t you guys become pro-active. Instead of repeating over and over how bad Bargnani is
In actuality…
ONE Paragraph out of over FOURTEEN mentions Bargnani…
And all you can see is that one paragraph?
Wow, talk about taking the issue personally and not thinking about the situation rationally…
KDFREATPED
Talking about the comments not necessarily the post
You can go back to the march now
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Jan 20, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Just wanted to point out who started the Bargnani conversation...
It wasn’t a “Bargnani-Sucks” protester…
KDFREATPED
who said anything about
superheroism from him? I didn’t…. again, words in my mouth.
I just want to see him try. I could care less how much he scores. I’ll say that again HIS SCORING IS IRRELEVANT TO ME.
and the reason he gets ‘harrassed’ regardless of how much he does or doesn’t score, is that his rebounding and defense is atrocious. Honestly…
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Even though I’m a charter member of the Bargnani Disapprovers Society, I will give props to Interloper for another well thought out comment. The Jim Edmunds/Devon White comparison is definitely food for thought. I get the point about perceived effort and how some players can get the job done without looking like they’re trying.
Where I think the comparison ultimately fails is the fact that, in the end, Bargnani is not getting the job done defensively vs. someone like White (who was a 5-time Gold Glove recipient with the Jays). This would be akin to Bargnani being named to an All-Defensive Team five times. Not going to happen. Ever.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Talking on D
I dont know if anyone else has noticed but Wright is a huge talker on the defensive end. He also points a lot to his man letting other players know where to be. Call me a wright supporter.
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Typical Bargnani defense...
You guys could get into thee Guiness Book of Records
Most ways to say Bargnani sucks
by raptball on Jan 20, 2011
Just like in elementary school… don’t like what someone has to say? Call them fat and get a laugh, people will forget that they had valid points…
KDFREATPED
Just like Fox News
Always try to make the most noise about one side of the story and get congrats from the choir
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Jan 20, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll happily accept the Bargnani Disapprovers Society label… but Fox News? That’s awful.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
the fox news label is a little harsh!
by untouchable_21 on Jan 20, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnani Waffler....
I would like to adopt the label “Bargnani Waffler”. The last two games I have strongly disapproved of his play, but earlier in the season I was feeling quite supportive of him.
Don't take the Fox news thing to seriously guys
This is coming from a guy that stated that the Raptors roster was good enough to win 50 games this season. From that point on, it was pretty difficult to take him seriously.
True...I called 50, but I'm willing to admit being wrong if those who called for 12 wins will do the same
I really thought Kleiza would be a BIG DIFFERENCE MAKER in the positive sense, thought both Weems and DeRozan would flourish from the start and be consistent, and the only real area of uncertainty for me was the point guard position. Bargnani is just about where I expected him to be with respect to his offence and outside of injuries has been as consistent as would be expected from a top 20 scorer in the league. Can someone do a quick check and see what the Raps point differential is and map that to win expectations to this point?
Triano, as he was last year, is the salt in the sugar bowl. It’s hard to make any real predictions with his day to day influence on who plays. If Wrght had been given playing time over Kleiza, when it was clear Linas didn’t fit, maybe this team is at 19 or 20 wins by now.
In general, I think the whole league is underperforming with regards to win-loss record to this point outside of San Antonio and maybe Boston. What compelled such a prognostication was the views on teams like Milwaukee, Charlotte, etc going into the season and how so many viewed them as locks. Well I didn’t and if I’m batting .700 with respect to my predictions, I’ll gladly take that.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Jan 20, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
I believe the sometimes maligned Wins Produced metric had the Raptors slated for 25-27 wins, which I agreed with. This is the same metric that has nailed the Raptors win total in previous seasons, and the same metric that would have you believe that Bargnani has a negative impact on the floor despite his scoring.
I remain a fan of WP.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
BIG Bargs fan here
I’m not in the camp for trading Bargs bec I know 28 other teams in the NBA wish they had a 7 footer with his skill set. I think however the baby treatment he’s gotten since getting here has to stop. Half the reason he hasn’t developed more “heart” is bec he gets minutes no matter how soft he plays or how little he tries on D.
Basically I appreciate what Bargs brings to this team when he’s playing good ball but he needs to be benched or have his minutes cut back when he doesn’t come to play. Coaching & Mgmt have to take responsibility for some of the pathetic play we see from Bargs bec they basically okay it by not holding him accountable.
Despite all that though, Bargs is a keeper. We need to acquire a strong defensive SF and a tough defensive C who can rebound and block shots without needing touches on O.
Gerald Wallace and a healthy Greg Oden would do wonders for this team and def hide Bargs weaknesses. Gerald W. is not agreeing to come here (just trust me on that 1) but we should gamble on Oden bec even if he doesn’t come back, we’re only on the hook for his salary for 1 more year.
Finally the draft has lots of SF coming out this year, take your pick from:
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Tyler Honeycutt
Harrison Barnes
Kyle Singler
Kawhi Leonard (my sleeper pick)
CJ Leslie
Kris Joseph
Chris Singleton
etc etc
Don’t think BC is working overtime to acquire a SF but he should be looking into what young or veteran centers might be available:
Greg Oden
Hasheem Thabeet
Samuel Dalembert
DeAndre Jordan (restricted after this season)
Chris Kayman
Hilario Nene
Troy Murphy
Ronnie Turiaf
Timofey Mozgov
Kosta Kufos
Omeka Okafor
Alot of activity here
As many of you may know, I’ve firmly been a realist as far as Bargnani’s play is concerned.
When Andrea surpassed the 40 point plateau against the Knicks, HQers started criticizing Bargs for his defence against Amar’e. I took Bargs’ side and genuinely believed he played a great game. Amar’e was just hitting shots from everywhere, and he’s torched many other teams in the same way this season. I’ve been labelled as a “fanboy” several times, and I find this unfair. When Bargnani has a stretch of terrible games, I acknowledge it and agree that he’s got some work to do on the defensive end…ALOT of work to do in fact. I just ask that we learn to be more even keel about this topic. Credit him for doing things right and criticize him for things he does wrong. He’s still a useful player in the league if utilized properly.
That game is a great example...
I wonder how many NY bloggers were saying Amare was the worst player on their team when Bargs scored 40+ points?
KDFREATPED
Amar’e IS a terrible defender though. It’s not only Bargnani that has lit him up for a huge scoring night. I wouldn’t be surprised if NY bloggers were critical of his defense.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 20, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
That's my point though...
He IS a terrible defender, but the coach knows that and compensates accordingly and he comes off touted as an MVP candidate rather than the scapegoat of the team…
Bargnani is what he is, a terrible help defender (and increasingly worse straight up defender lately) who can score in bunches… most of the time…
Once some of the other pieces fall into place, the perceived “Bargnani Bashing” will subside (as long as the coach properly implements the new pieces) and Raptors fans as a whole can reunite in the success of the team instead of having to focus on such a small sample, instant gratification, success/failure scale…
I am a Raptors fan. As such, I have a thick skin and patience. I also have the vision and open-mindedness to see a bright future. It’s called hope. Without it, you may as well move to Cleveland…
KDFREATPED
Come on gentlemen...
Amare is averaging 26.4 pts per while shooting .506% and almost 9 rbs a game. He is not a good defender, but he is better than Bargnani for sure. I get the point you’re making, that Bargnani is unfairly criticised, but you picked a bad reference point. If Bargs put up points with the machine like efficiency of Amare and rebounded better and put pressure on opposing frontlines by attacking the paint AND played slightly better defence, then yes you would have a solid argument. But he shoots 46% from the field, doesn’t play defence, doesn’t rebound and the team is on pace to win less than 30 games while NY is heading to the playoffs potentially.
Don't get me wrong...
I am not comparing them as equal to each other…
Just equal in terms of importance to their respective franchises…
Still basically apples to apples…
Just crab-apples to golden delicious that’s all…
KDFREATPED
You are discrediting the Knicks as an organization to bolster Amare as an individual...
They have lights out shooters and a decent semblance of TEAM defense and a coach that holds players accountable…
It isn’t just Amare that has them in the playoff picture…
KDFREATPED
Definitely not equal
.
Amare makes 2 x Andrea’s salary. And in the 2014-15 season, Stoudemire will still make 2 x Bargnani’s salary – when he’s 32 (and with 5 more years on those knees). That salary could cripple the Knicks down the road, if injuries catch up to Amare.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 20, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
+1, This was the point I was making
Albeit, you put it far more eloquently and made it easier to comprehend.
Learned some things here today
*The “bash Bargs” gang are a very sensitive group of guys who don’t like being called names(Fox News) – wunder if Bargs is so sensitive
*Raps ownership do have money to spend
*Team payrolls have no affect on win loss record of an NBA team
*The “payroll tax” has nothing to do with the idea that the amount of team spending gives unfair advantage to rich teams as we have seen here today that spending has little affect on winning.
- Bargs doesn’t try
- Colangelo tells Jay who to play and the minutes
You guys are probably bored of this because I have said it dozens of times…
Everybody knows Bargnani’s strengths and weaknesses. The guy is an amazing scoring artist. He sometimes does not make the best decisions in terms of whether to post up or attack from the outside, but he is still a great offensive weapon. His defense, effort and rebounding suck. He is a good enough offensive player that he is still worth using given what we pay him and who are other players are.
The biggest problem with Bargnani is not his skill set or even his attitude/desire. It is that the team uses him inappropriately. I am not calling for a move to the bench. I do not care if he starts or comes off the bench. He is easily one of our best players and should be playing considerable minutes. However, we have a coach that plays him way too much plain and simple.
Many teams try to limit the minutes of their best players to keep them healthy and fresh. There have been games this year that Bargnani has been hurt, tired and arguably lacking focus that Triano has rolled him out there for 40 plus minutes. Bargnani is good, but not that good that he needs to be on the floor all game….
Whether it is laziness or fatigue, Bargnani goes through stretches where he does not seem that into it. Rest him and only let him play when he is fresh and into it. Bargnani is the type of talent that is capable of scoring 2 points every 3 minutes that he is on the floor when he has it going. Let Bargnani know that he needs to be active and contributing to play, also let him know that you want him to carry the load offensively when he is out there. Give him 30 minutes a night and he will still get his 20 points. He will be able to avoid injuries that way and would maybe even be able to put a little more energy into D and rebounding.
Talkinf fantasy bball on twitter http://twitter.com/FinalsFantasy#
by JumpShootersRUS on Jan 20, 2011 8:26 PM EST reply actions
Yeeesh
That does it. With this post (and the next) I’m not going to mention Bargnani anymore. I specifically tried to stay away from saying anything really harsh about his performance because it was plain as day. I’ll be discussing the rest of the team from now on.
Good DAY sirs :)
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 20, 2011 11:24 PM EST reply actions
lol. Thread count is for my bed sheets.
But point taken. :)
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jan 21, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
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