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Tip-In: Rinse and Repeat - Same Old Issues Plague Raptors in 85 to 81 Loss to Hornets


Even if you're rooting for a top 5 pick in next year's NBA Draft Lottery for the Toronto Raptors, losses like yesterday's to the New Orleans Hornets still sting...pardon the pun...

Star-divide

Andrea Bargnani is averaging 22 points a game on the season.

He's been remarkably consistent in many ways too in scoring these points, as he averages a shade under 23 points at home, and 21 on the road.

Versus the division, 25.

Versus the conference, 22.

And no matter how many days of rest he gets, he still averages between 20 and 23 points.

Even in losses he averages 20 points per game!

As the 16th leading scorer in the league, he's simply one of the best in the NBA at putting points on the board.

However averaging under 6 rebounds and under a block a game while manning the center position, he's drawn the ire of many a Raptor fan.  Traditionally in the NBA, your center is the team's last resort defensively.  He's the juggernaut who secures the key rebound, the human fly-swatter who bails the club out by a appearing out of nowhere to block a shot, the low-post presence who hammers his opponent into submission with a series of post-ups and dunks...

...unfortunately none of these things describe Andrea Bargnani.

Do they describe Shaq and maybe apply more to the 90's NBA big man?

Perhaps, but even in today's "Smaller, Faster NBA," they describe the majority of dominant low-post presences, from Blake Griffin to Joakim Noah.

However simply because Bargs doesn't have these traits, doesn't mean he can't be a useful basketball player to the Toronto Raptors in some capacity, and I think this season has been a great example of how to, and how not to use the man known as Il Mago.

In fact, I'd argue you can transfer this line of thinking to the entire team, and despite an injury-filled season that has our beloved Raps on pace to win about 25 games, to me, that's the real bright spot emerging even as the losses continue to pile up.

One game short of the halfway point in the 2010-11 season for the Dinos, it should be pretty clear to management as to the strengths and weakness of this club, and the individual players contained within.  Injuries have forced playing time on just about everyone, and games like yesterday's 85 to 81 loss to the New Orleans Hornets continue to drive home various truths about the current roster.

Let's go back to Andrea to illustrate this point.

He was only 4 of 17 from the field yesterday for 11 points.

Not good.

However that happens.  As I pointed out earlier, he's been a pretty consistent offensive threat in terms of the final number of points he puts on the board.

But at times, it takes him 20 shots to get those 20 points, and he does go through stretches where his shot isn't falling.

That happens to the best of them in the league, but the problem is, without scoring, Andrea just doesn't impact the game in any other way, and often becomes a detriment to the team.  Yesterday he was responsible for guarding Emeka Okafor, and to say he was successful in doing so would be akin to saying the Raps are going to win the NBA title this year.

Okafor carved up Bargs inside, and finished with an incredible 12 offensive rebounds on the afternoon.

No, not all came directly at Andrea's expense, but replay after replay showed a pretty nonchalant Bargnani, standing around watching in the paint as Okafor and David West bullied their way to a combined 40 points and 26 rebounds. It got to the point in the third quarter that Jay Triano even lit into him for his passive play in that regard.

But then Triano left Andrea out there for 42 freaking minutes.

42.

To put that in perspective, Chris Paul played 31.

Even the wrecking ball of West and Okafor played less at 38.

This simply doesn't make sense, especially on a night when Bargs was struggling mightily with his offense, and I started feeling sorry for the guy, as it was almost like he was being punished!

And sure, the Dinos were short-handed having essentially 8 guys available, but Joey Dorsey, a bit of a wrecking ball in his own right, played a measly 8 minutes.

To me, yesterday was a clear example of how not to use Bargs.  If his offence isn't going, you need to get production from him in some other capacity, and if that's not happening, he simply can't be on the court.  Remember, this game was decided by four points.  Much like the Raps' win over the Mavs pre-Christmas, a win minus Andrea, the game was being won at the defensive end of the court, however it became harder and harder for the game to be closed out with each errant attempt by Bargs, and each failed box-out.  A couple more secured rebounds or a few more shots for players other than Andrea could easily have been the difference.  (Although one of our readers did make a solid point post-game that NO failed to capitalize offensively on a number of their second-chances.)

That's not to put this all on Andrea, yikes, the reffing didn't help, but the point I'm trying to make is that the bulk of this current roster has severe limitations and the coaching staff has to start doing a much better job of maximizing player strengths and minimizing weaknesses if they want to start winning games.

And not just this year, but more importantly, down the road when some more talent is on the scene.

Hence the title of this recap.

The bulk of the issues yesterday, from protecting the paint to execution down the stretch (what was with the post-up play run for Amir Johnson near the very end of the game?) were the same ones fans have seen all season.

It's frustrating, but it has to be viewed as an opportunity to learn so next year, when additional talent is added, the team can take a giant leap forward.  Right now perhaps Jay feels he has to lean so heavily on Bargs because of a lack of talent and personnel, but as noted, there were other options yesterday.  Toronto didn't field a team of only five players.

It's the same thing we've been discussing all year in terms of Julian Wright.

Wright's not the best option offensively, but when the D has been such a problem all season, why not give him major minutes in a defensive role, and flank him with your premier offensive options like Bargnani?  Even with Andrea's struggles on O, the club's D with Wright starting next to Bargs and Amir Johnson was enough to keep this one close up until the latter stages of the game.  That's when Triano's insistence on PT for Bargs, who hell, could have been exhausted from all that run for all we know, I felt became a major hurdle for the team to overcome.

So my plea here going forward is for this coaching staff to break the wash-rinse-repeat, play bad D, try and shoot yourself out of it, over-rely on Andrea Bargnani cycle.

Put Bargs in a situation to maximize his mismatch ability, and his deadly offensive game that can absolutely dominate for periods of time.  Put guys like Wright, Barbosa and Kleiza in similar situations as well, and let's get more run for youngsters like Davis and even Alabi.  

Davis played 30 minutes yesterday and had another double-double, looking more and more confident at both ends. Perhaps this road trip is a "failure" in the end thanks to the team's won-loss record, but if Ed can put up consistent numbers like that by the time the team returns home, I'd have to say that's a much bigger win looking at things on a larger scale.

And again, that's what this season should be about.

Now if someone can just communicate this to Triangelo and co...

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There’s no use belabouring the point, Bargnani’s play last night was atrocious. What concerns me (as you highlight Franchise) is the distribution of minutes and lack of accountability. It scares me to think that we are heading into a rebuilding phase (where the development of young, impressionable players will be the determining factor) with Triangelo in charge. Players who should be playing aren’t. Players who should be sitting are being coddled. Bad habbits are being reinforced and good habits and effort aren’t rewarded. Scarier still, I don’t see this changing until either Bargnani or Colangelo are gone, and unfortunatley, I don’t see either happening any time soon.

Especially for the Bigs: How long will Amir Johnson continue to give his all on D and rebounding when the golden child doesn’t have to do either. Even last night, as the final minutes ticked away, Ed Davis looked as though he was about to cry. I’m sure it doesn’t help his moral to know that no matter how terrible Bargnani’s D is, no matter how he gets’ badly he gets slaughtered on the boards, he will still get minutes over Ed Davis. Plus, it has to be demoralizing to be constantly cleaning up Bargs messes and getting fouls called against you because the oponent is alowed to grab an offensive rebound and put you in a bad position.

Regarding this quote Franchise: “Right now perhaps Jay feels he has to lean so heavily on Bargs because of a lack of talent and personnel,”
Bull crap. Unless Triano doesn’t look at any advanced statistics at all. And that would be even scarier.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 9:47 AM EST reply actions  

I don’t share MAS’s Bargnani vendetta, but I do think Bargnani played too much yesterday. Take some minutes from Bargnani and send Dorsey out there to jostle with West and Okafor for a while. Then when you bring Bargnani in for the stretch run he is fresher and the NO frontline is more tired. Instead of Bargs 42 Dorsey 8, a much better distribution of minutes would have been Bargs 35 Dorsey 15.

by DW19 on Jan 18, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

DW, I don’t have a vendetta. I’m just a hard-core Raps fan that gets frustrated with Bargnani’s lackadaisical play – especially concerning defense and rebounding – and how it effects the success of the Raptors. Futher, as per my post above, I’m concerned how his lackadaisical play and the coaches indifference to it will effect the development of the Raptors current and incomming young players. It’s nothing personal against Bargs and hey, if he started rebounding and defending with passion consistantly, I would have no beef. However, unfortunately all indicators point to that not happening.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree that when your top guy is not putting out full effort that can filter down and affect the rest of the team. A prime example is the way that the Raptors melted down the stretch last year when Turk and Bosh started struggling with their focus.

As far as Bargnani concerned, I agree that his play can be very frustrating at times(although exhilarating at others). The thing with him is that I don’t think indifference is his main problem. I’d say his problems in no particular order are: lack of instinct, confusion, indecision, lack of focus, being hesitant about contact at times, fatigue, deficient rebounding technique, poor positioning and occasionally indifference. Some of those things are correctable others not so much.

I don’t disagree that Bargnani is not playing as well as he could or as well as he needs to for the Raptors to be a good team. However, I haven’t closed the book on his chances of continuing to improve and/or of the team evolving in such a way as to maximize his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses. When I say vendetta, I guess what I mean is that I get the feeling that you think he will never be an asset to the team under any circumstances. Perhaps I am mischaracterizing your views.

by DW19 on Jan 18, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the explanation.

For me, while I don’t think the door is closed, based on everything I’ve seen from Bargnani over the past 4.5 years, I think the likelyhood that he becomes even a passable defensive/rebounding player is not good. But hey, I would love it if he proved me wrong! As I’m a Raptors fan, I just want the team to be successful.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Bargnani will not improve much MAS, he’s five years in… Not saying he couldnt magically start giving a shit on D, but he most likely will start to level out his performance from year to year.

by untouchable_21 on Jan 18, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I would actually trade 4-5 points a game from AB if he improved his defense and rebounding to just average standards (say 8 rbs a game and a passable 0 +/-). Probably won’t happen but I keep thinking that this team would look so much better with a more limited offensive center (like Chandler) in there over AB. Losing is the point this season but I think AB is actually killing this teams long term potential if he cannot figure out how to at least not be a detriment to this team when his shot isn’t falling.

by McGateway on Jan 18, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

“AB is actually killing this teams long term potential if he cannot figure out how to at least not be a detriment to this team when his shot isn’t falling.”

yes and yes.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 18, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t talk enough about this but it is scary as hell Mas to think that the same rotational issues are occurring again this year. Last year it was the triangle of death, and Hedo over Weems and DeRozan over everyone etc.

This year, the players’ names are different for the most part, but it’s a similar situation.

So what happens if this team gets a stud top pick? Does Andrea still get a free pass on rebounding etc? Does the top pick have to struggle for minutes behind Kleiza? Some of this is “wait and see” for sure but the trending is concerning.

Another good point here MAS is that at some point, the rest of the team is bound to resent Andrea. How many games can he play 42 minutes worth of time at center, and get 4 freakin rebounds, while getting out-hustled by others? It’s just not in him to be a 10 rebound guy (or even 7 rebound guy apparently) so forcing a square peg into a round hole is not only damaging the team on the scoreboard, but possibly in the locker room eventually as well.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Jan 18, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I Did see triano go nuts on bargs during the game… that needs to happen a lot more!

by untouchable_21 on Jan 18, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Triano goes nuts on the guy… but he still plays him 42 minutes. If it’s not clear who really runs the show (Colangelo), I’m not sure what other evidence needs to be presented?

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 18, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I heard this in the media this morning as well...

Also, Triano did sit him for a good chunk of the third quarter in a recent game specifically due to his D/rebounding. So who knows, maybe there is hope…

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I also cannot foresee anything changing because Jay is just following the orders of the architect. I would say that in no particular order Jay, Andrea, and Byran need to go!

by Slick_Rick on Jan 18, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

To say I have huge expectations of Colangelo this off-season would be an understatement. He needs to prove to me, and many fans, that he’s truly got this team back on track and knows how to properly rebuild.

Right now it’s a bit of a “yeah, maybe this might work” thing in many respects.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Jan 18, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

If Triano wants to have a future in this league as a coach he unfortunately has to toe the party line. When coaches buck the system, they get the can and if they don’t have a name they get recycled into Asst Coach status (just ask Brendan Malone).

by McGateway on Jan 18, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I started feeling sorry for the guy, as it was almost like he was being punished!

Maybe he was. I mean, the tone of your post is that the Raptors would have had a better chance to win if Triano had given Bargnani fewer minutes (and you’re probably correct) but the tone of many other posts is that Triano should be focussing more on developing young players than winning games (and that still includes Bargnani).

Maybe Triano’s tongue-lashing was on the lines of “That guy’s embarrassing you, and I’m going to keep sending you out there and he’s going to keep embarrassing you. The only way it’s going to stop is if you find a way to stop it. If you want to be a star in this league I’m not going to hide you on the bench when things aren’t going well.”

And while it didn’t work last night, it might still pay dividends down the road. Or, at least, Triano will have confirmed something unflattering about Bargs when the time comes to start winning games.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Jan 18, 2011 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

true

Let’s clear the air, yesterday Andrea sucked big time and what is most depressing is this year his D seems to have regressed. He used to be pretty god M2M, ATM that does not seem to be the case and it is strange as he has progressed in everything else.

To steal a line from DS, think what kind of player you would have if is D was league average, or even slightly below average. I hope he does think that too, he has spent years to become an elite offensive player and he is, the focus should now shift on something else, let’s hope, for the raps and for himself the focus now shifts.

by renato on Jan 18, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

My two main complaints against Bargnani are the following:

1) He has inherited Bosh’s habit of conserving energy on the defensive end to spend on offense.

Solution: If he needs to rest he should be doing it on the bench not on the court.

2) When his offensive game is not working he lets it affect his defensive game. Whether it is a loss of confidence or he is thinking about why he is not scoring, either possibility is bad.

Solution: Follow Jordan’s classic example. When your shot isn’t falling redouble your effort on defense! Maybe you get a steal or block that leads to an easy score and gets you back in the groove. At a minumum, if you are stopping the other team from scoring you are buying yourself time to get out of your slump.

by DW19 on Jan 18, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

One of the best articles yet...

Franchise, you summed up all the Raptors problems in the most clear and direct way. It sounded like you are insinuating that Raptors drastically need restructuring to coaching personnel and management.

I have also seen the limitations of Andrea. The fact that many believe that Andrea is a natural shooting guard trapped in a centre body is no fault of his own. When Andrea first came to the team, the past (and present) coaches decided to play him out of position at the centre spot. The problem with this manoeuvre was that Andrea knows absolutely nothing about the essentials of a playing centre. In the first couple seasons, Andrea’s notable weaknesses were not as apparent because CB4 and co. did the brunt of the work on the boards; however, weak side help was still an elusive trait of the Raptors. Fast-forward to this season and Andrea’s weaknesses are being magnified with him being deemed our “cornerstone”. Oftentimes, Andrea has lapses on defense and allows average players out muscle him on the block. You are absolutely right in questioning the magnitude of shots that Andrea gets on a given night. I would like to have seen what would’ve happen if David Anderson got the same green light on his shot attempts, would he have shot a better percentage/per game?

I am in no-way hating on Andrea, but I believe that the coaches are not using him properly. I would like to see Andrea in another system that his better suited to his strength as an impact player coming off the bench. The Raptors desperately need to work with a clean slate to move in a different direction.

Defense needs to be the endgame for the Raptors. Defense is a proven statistic that equals championships.

by Slick_Rick on Jan 18, 2011 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

Great post Slick Rick (THA RULAH!)

The last few weeks it just keeps hitting me over the head.

Yep, there are some pieces here, but cotdmanit they’re not being used right. And to MAS’s earlier point, that’s scary as hell, as the same thing happened last year with Hedo etc.

Watching last night’s game I was thinking of a guy like Jason Terry. People forget this but Terry was a top lottery pick for the Hawks back in the day, but people were constantly disappointed in his play. However you never hear that complaint since he went to the Mavs. He was surrounded by great talent yes, but also complementary pieces to his skill set.

That’s how I believe the Raps need to view this rebuilding process. “Who do we have of value, and how can we get the most out of them in the future.”

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Jan 18, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

+1 on Jason Terry

Let’s not forget that he has excelled since going to the Mavs and coming off THE BENCH. Put Crawford with Atlanta in this bucket as well.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Crawford’s another great example, probably even better than Terry in that vein.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Jan 18, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

You could Lamar Odom to that list, too.

by DW19 on Jan 18, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

The problem with a lot of those compares is that Terry and Crawford are two guards (much easier to hide their defensive issues than a 7-foot centre), Odom is generally regarded as a good defender, and Kukoc was a great passer. Bargnani is none of those things. But ultimately, I think he should come off the bench and play less minutes.

The Raptors aren’t winning anyway. Why not start your lottery pick (Ed Davis) alongside Johnson, Wright, DeRozan and Calderon. Bring Bargnani off the bench with Barbosa, Bayless and Dorsey. Trade Kleiza for some basketballs and a case of Gatorade.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 18, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Remember in the summer when Andrea got bullied by a guy

Don’t remember the guy’s name or what country he was playing for, but the next game Andrea went off on the guy. I’m sure he’s made mental notes of this embarrassment and will aim to make amends in the rematch with Okafor. Nine games out of ten, which of the two centres would you want going forward. Big Bad New Orleans has never overwhelmed the Raptors and often times the Raptors would fare very well against the Hornets. That trend continues. It was an off night on both sides of the court for him, just as it was for DeMar vs. Washington and Nick Young. Something tells me that with some shrewd moves and adjustments by this coach (or his replacement David Blatt), we will be looking back fondly on this year as the year everything went right for the long term.

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Jan 18, 2011 10:54 AM EST reply actions  

Can't agree with the logic in this post.

“I’m sure he’s made mental notes of this embarrassment and will aim to make amends in the rematch with Okafor”

Would you say the same for: Chris Wilcox, Omar Asik, Harangody, Javale McGee, Nazr Mohamed, the entire Sacremento Kings front line, (the list goes on and on)? Franchise has even coined the term “Stubs” (Scrubs who end up being Studs) for bigs that are scrubs and put up career nights when guarded by Bargs. I and other Fantasy GMs I know have started to run oposing Big men who are playing the Raptors in our fantasy teams because their is undeniable statistical jump for Bigs playing against Bargs. If last night was the exeption to the rule, I would agree with you to a certain extent. However, it is norm.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Was going to say the same thing.

Unfortunately, this has been the trend all year regardless of match-ups. The statistics show it, but just watching the game footage you can see it.

Not to mention earlier in the season when I was sitting beside the G State bench, their players were yelling to attack Andrea…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Jan 18, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I remeber that. I think you phrased it that the GS players were encouraging teamates to attack Bargnani and then laughing at him (paraphrasing). Nice… Our starting centre is litteraly a loughingstock.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Would you say the same for: Chris Wilcox, Omar Asik, Harangody, Javale McGee, Nazr Mohamed, the entire Sacremento Kings front line, (the list goes on and on)?

Awesome.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 18, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

You know who would be the best tyo utilize Il Mago’s Talents and at the same time get the best out of him on a consistent basis—Larry Brown. Join my crusade and help bring Larry Brown North of the border. Join my facebook group Larry Brown for Raptors’ Head Coach or read my post on the benefits of having Larry Brown at the Raptors’ bench. Raptors were up by 11 for most of the game and sjust got shut down in the fourth losing by four points!!! That is unacceptable.

by Jeffrey Thompson on Jan 18, 2011 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

Not sure how Larry Brown fixes anything.

Let me ask you this, what are the main constants about Brown?

1. He gives franchises short term gains in the wins column. Fine.
2. But he undermines management by trying to force his will on a franchise, and that almost always means sacrificing PT for young talent. This is the OPPOSITE of what the Raps need.
3. He never stays in one place long. This franchise needs major stability so again…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Jan 18, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Post-deadline rotation

For now, I am fine with showcasing a guy like Kleiza in hopes that he might attract some decent trade offers. After the trade deadline, I would like to see the following rotation:

Bargnani-Davis/Amir-Wright-DeRozan-Calderon with Davis/Amir, Bayless, Weems, Barbosa and Dorsey off the bench.

Andrea has proven his point about being a viable first scoring option, so the rest of the season should focus on getting better defensive focus out of him. Limit his minutes to 35 per game and pull him when his mind starts wondering.

I like Davis’ no-nonsense game to complement Bargnani and Amir coming off the bench to provide some spark for the second unit. However, Amir has earned his starting spot with consistent effort these last two seasons and has performed well as a starter(for example, 17 + 8 yesterday). For me these two guys are fairly interchangeable and can also play together when the other team doesn’t have any real bruisers out there. Dorsey should get minutes either when Bargnani is not playing well or when the other team has a strong rebounder like Okafor who is giving the Raps a problem.

Wright, Weems and DeRozan should man the swing positions from here on out. Kleiza was a fine signing at the time, but with the direction the team is going he just doesn’t quite fit. Bayless and Barbosa can play some back up 2 minutes when the Raptors want to go small.

Calderon is an excellent PG for this roster because there are plenty of athletes and young hustlers, but you need someone with a cool head and a steady hand to keep things under control. It would be great if he played better D, but he is what he is. Efficiency and good judgement are more valuable right now.

by DW19 on Jan 18, 2011 11:13 AM EST reply actions  

Great read Franchise

Tough loss to handle, and as I said yesterday – this defensive effort (and a good one), would’ve been a win if Bargs hit even 2 or 3 more shots.

Players who should be playing aren’t. Players who should be sitting are being coddled. [MAS11]

Two things:

  1. In respect to playing time, Davis & DeRozan are getting sufficient time to develop – 21 & 33 minutes respectively. And Amir is averaging 40 % more court time, then he did last season.
  2. Coddled? I realize this is a reference to Bargnani – who you do have a hate extreme dislike for, so let’s start with that assumption. First up, he had a terrible game – yet Raptors held Hornets to 37 points in the 1st half. If he had even a remotely decent game, this was a win for the Raptors. 11 points ties him for his lowest production this season.
    As for Okafor, our Bigs were ALL getting abused by Okafor. Near the end of the 3rd Quarter, New Orleans had 5 offensive rebounds in a span of 32 seconds – one OReb every 6.4 seconds. That fiasco stopped when Andrea came on the floor, and Jack missed the very next shot, trying to shoot over Andrea (to which Davis snagged the rebound). All that being said, it doesn’t excuse AB’s efforts (or lack thereof). As for his minutes, Jay played him too much, and that probably affected his play (even more), as the 4th Quarter began, and the Raptor slide started. In fact, JT is playing AB too much lately (even with all our injuries) – almost 5 minutes more per game, than his season average. But until our glut of injuries slows down, this situation might linger on.

If this game taught us anything, it’s that a Starting line-up of Jose, Demar, Wright, Johnson & Andrea, was working pretty good. And it continued to work when Davis subbed in for Wright.

The problem here, is you bitch about Bargnani so much, that I miss anything relevant coming from you. You need to relax and let this season develop. I get your feelings about Andrea, but he’s here, he’s staying, so get used to it. Can we talk about the TPE & Expirings instead – that seems more of an issue as the deadline approaches.
.

by RapthoseLeafs on Jan 18, 2011 12:05 PM EST reply actions  

Agree to disagree

I think my posts above and the content of Franchise’s article refute your points sufficiently so I won’t beat a dead horse. However, as we head towards the deadline, I’m all for talking about the TPE, expiring etc. and what should be done going forward.

by MAS11 on Jan 18, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

You're hilarious!

Your post refutes nothing and neither does anything Franchise states. Andrea is clearly hurt and the fact he missed practice reinforces that he is struggling with injuries.

The guy has a horrible game where he was clearly injured and all you can do slag the guy, you are a hero (rolling eyes)

by even flow on Jan 18, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently Bargnani has been hurt for 4+ years now…

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 18, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

So you don’t think last night had anything to do with playing injured? Wow!

by even flow on Jan 18, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Healthy or injured, Bargnani has been abused on defense by opposing big men all season. And not just frontline players like Okafor or whoever. We’re talking Hilton Armstrong, Taj Gibson, Omer Asik, etc.

The other problem with your injury assumption is the fact that he played 42 minutes vs. the Hornets. Was it a shaving injury? What kind of serious injury allows someone to play 40+ minutes of an NBA game with healthier, more productive players waiting in the wings?

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jan 18, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

LMAO!!!
Was it a shaving injury?

KDFREATPED

by Mikthaniel on Jan 18, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHAHA

Regular nonsense from even flow…

by MAS11 on Jan 19, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I have more sense in my little toe than you have in your entire body MASS11. You obviously don’t have an eye for talent and your understanding of the game is primitive and shallow.

The fact of the matter is I will be right and you will be wrong, yet again and the last laugh will be on you.

by even flow on Jan 19, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

well, since you do not know

can you wait to find out? before pulling the trigger?

by renato on Jan 19, 2011 3:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Ummm… do you guys even watch the games?

What happened when Andrea came out in the first, the hornets went up by 10. Really more productive players? You’re out to lunch.

Obviously Jay wanted to win the game and the only way to do that was to have Andrea on the floor but don’t let reality get in the way of misguided ways.

by even flow on Jan 19, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I am starting to get a little apprehensive about the trade deadline. I would be more than fine with the Raptors doing nothing at the deadline. I would be fine with acquiring more picks and or prospects. The move I am dreading is a trade that does any of the following:

- ties up the Raptors cap situation which is currently not bad
- adds 5-10 meaningless wins to this campaign
- gives away young talent in exchange for “proven” talent that won’t be useful in the future
- sacrifices 1 or more draft picks
- brings more shooters or poor defenders

If there is a no-brainer trade to be made then do it(say OKC offers Jeff Green for Kleiza and Alabi), but otherwise keep your powder dry and save the TPE for the end of the season.

by DW19 on Jan 18, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe you are off on one aspect

Trades at the trade deadline are not necessarily for changing the rest of the season. Especially with a new CBA coming there (possibly) will be teams willing to make some salary dumps. If that will provide a player useful to the team (let’s say a 3 or a C) it would be stupid not to take him

by renato on Jan 18, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

"but he’s here, he’s staying, so get used to it"

If your neighboor piled his shit in his yard, and the smell kept blowing in your window…. would you be ok with him saying its staying get used to it?

Honestly, this has just been the same shit, different pile from last year.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 18, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Not that I agree with the concept of keeping Bargnani but that analogy is not really relevant. After all you can complain to your neighbour about the shit, and even if move it yourself if you get right down to it but in this situation, we already know the our neighbour (B.C.) will not listen to any reason with regards to the shit (A.B.). Maybe if we all move away the neighbour will get the message but until that happens complaining about it may be the Canadian way but it is ultimately pointless.

by McGateway on Jan 18, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

well I wasn't really labeling AB as

shit himself… more the scenarios

all O no D, soft big man as your core player (Bosh), guys getting minutes without effort, same stuff from AB as previous years etc etc.

by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jan 18, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Two Things

1. We may very well continue to see the Raptors going to Johnson even more in the cruch.

2. This is all a growth process without Bosh around to be the 4th quarter go to guy which he was for years.

by Buddahfan on Jan 18, 2011 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

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