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The Fourth Quarter Talent Collapse

The wins against France and China at home may have given everyone skewed vision on this summer's Senior Men's Team ...


With the US having been crowned kings of the basketball world and the Senior Women taking to the floor very soon for their shot at a world medal, the Can Ball Report finally decides to weigh in on the debacle that was the Senior Men's outing in Turkey.  We know it's a little wait but waiting for the heads to cool off took a little time so here we go ...

Star-divide

 

I have been wondering for a little while if I should even post this thing I wrote but I figure that I need to.  I’ve been sitting on it for a little while, about a month really, and with the Senior Women  just days away from their World Championship, I think it’s time to make a comment on the Senior Men’s National Team.  There has been some time to let the dust settle and the fuses to flame out so now I think I’m thinking clearly. 

 

So let’s get that question out of the way:  What the hell happened to the Senior Men in Turkey?

 

Remember that this team is the same team that beat China in Vancouver and France twice in Toronto.  This is the same team that had third quarter collapses and was able to pull out the wins all three times and in convincing fashion.  China had one NBA player and France had five plus an NBA Draftee and a former NBA player.  The team concept was working with different guys stepping up and making huge contributions on the nightly all without Jermaine Anderson for the games.  So then, with the same team showing up in Turkey, what was the cause of the collapse?

 

There has been lots of talk of the results of the team in Turkey were due to poor coaching.  In my humble opinion, I don’t think that the tanking of the National Team in Turkey was as simple as Coach Rautins effing up Xs and Os in critical points of games.  Though his relative lack of major coaching experience was more of an issue when he was hired, it can’t be the most blatant thing five years later.  He now has at least that many years experience and he has managed to surround himself with enough experienced coaching talent to help guide him through his situations.  I know that Leo is the guy that has all the eyes on him and he has been taking the brunt of all the criticism from the public.  The media has done its part to rally around and help protect him to some degree.  I wish it could be that easy but it isn’t.

 

Now I had tossed out a poll question about a while ago when the team was only at 0-3 and the results are telling of varying opinions of the whole situation.  The runaway winner of the poll was that Canada didn’t have that much talent and I think that is the biggest discrepancy between the Red and White and the rest of the world.  And the truth is that is exactly right. 

 

Canada was not just missing a go-to player, they were missing all the parts necessary to compete at this level.  Now when I say all the parts, I don’t mean there was no talent because there was.  Despite the defeats in Izmir, they still did beat China and France here and they were on route to a blow out win over Lithuania until they collapsed so they had guys that could play.  But at this level, Canada was just simply a little short. 

 

We have great guys on the team right now, guys that would be great role players on most teams.  In fact, most of these guys are role players on their respective teams, if they had played pro overseas the previous year.  For most of them, they were role players on their college teams too.  The only exception to this would be Andy Rautins but he wasn’t even at a 100% for the tournament and left after the third game to get treatment in New York.  OK, Rob Sacre and Denham Brown would also be exceptions to that but they are not the be all, end all for this team.  Sacre averaged less ten minutes per game and Brown averaged less than nine points as a scoring threat.  This should be enough to have you scratching your head as a fan.

 

So is there talent out there?  Of course there is. 

 

I’ve been asked many questions over the last year about guys that shoulda/coulda been on the National Team, or at least get a look for the team and I’ve always said that Canada Basketball has their list and they track those guys that can play or make noise all over the world.  Now I have to pose the question is the organization really looking at every possible player available to help further the program and the game in this country? 

 

Let’s assume that everyone one is fair game and will be asked to participate in the National Team camp.  Guys that I would expect to see are former NCAA studs like Tristan Blackwood, Steve Sir, Scott Morrison and Sean Denison, current NCAA guys like Olu Ashoalu, Andrew Nicholson, Devoe and Kris Joseph and the high school guys like Cory Joseph, Myck Kabongo, Tristan Thompson and Kyle Wiltjer.  Now assuming that all of these players show up to camp and only these guys rep the flag in Turkey, I think you have a very talented team. And this doesn’t include the other guys playing pro, in college both in Canada and the US and the various high school guys on both sides too.  Add in some of the vets from the current team and you have yourself a bunch of guys that, at least on paper, can contend with almost any team in the world.  But alas, that was not the case this time around and from what I’m getting from my various source, may not be the case for a while to come.

 

The bottom line is this:  Canada needs to get some more talented guys on the floor.  The current incarnation of the Senior Men’s National Team played their hearts out but they were largely just overmatched when it mattered most and for the Road Warriors it was the fourth quarter.  After grinding out a games night in and night out, bodies start to ache and psyches begin to slip.  And we saw the results of that.  In the fourth quarter, talent will always trump all else even if it’s played 35 minutes. 

 

I’m not going to lie, when Canada was beating France and China at home, I was thinking that the team would make a huge leap forward and Leo would obviously look like a genius taking the "everybody is even at the talent level" boat.  The wins would come at the Worlds, the profile of the game would grow big time and sponsors would line up and all would be great.  But that didn’t exactly happen.  Now that the plan of being even across the board seems to have backfired (thanks to a combination of injuries and, he seems like the program fell a few hundred feet backwards instead. 

Expect a full report card of the National Program's summer to come out soon after the Women's World Championships.

 

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My thoughts....

1) Wins over china and France in exhibition mean very little. For that matter exhibition games matter little
2) This team was missing major pieces in Carl English and Jesse Young. Andy was hurt, so was Jemaine. Other guys were banged up too.
3) We had no go to scorer and awful offence and no point gaurd (Nash anyone). Great defence though. What do you expect from a team like that? You are nuts if you thought we had a shot at the 2nd round, yet…
4) We were not that bad. Yes, 0 and 5, but we were competitve in most games. The Lebananon team was maybe the only game we should have won. NZ was better than many thought going in.
5) We were lucky ot be in the WC’s anyways
6) You are kidding yourself if you think Olu Ashoalu, Andrew Nicholson, Devoe and Kris Joseph and the high school guys like Cory Joseph, Myck Kabongo, Tristan Thompson Kyle Wiltjer or any others would have made a lick of difference. This are kids. Kids among men…professionals…experienced with FIBA. Maybe in 5 years a few of these kids will matter at this level (I truely hope so).
6) Sacre is terribad…I hope he gets it together. NBA body and athletism but can’t grab double boards in the NCAA? Screams soft to me. Jesse Young is a man and under-rated.
7) Steve Nash gets too much of a free pass if you ask me. Mr. Canada…pfffffftttt!
8) Leo is unimpressive as a coach – he may not have been the #1 scapegoat, but he didnt add alot of value if you ask me.
9) We got a great future with a load of young talent that I hope pans out. With so many of them, a few have to develope into international calibre players. It just may take 4 to 6 years.

by Mojo J on Sep 22, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Nash is 37 years old and he did his part for Canada. If you want to go after some one go after Jamaal Magloire who never repped the country (not that he is much help).

I understand that Leo is not to blame for the how the team plays but he does have some blame on him for his lack of recruiting skills. I mean, I find it hard to believe that the only NBA player we could get was Joel Anthony and the coaches son. As stated above I do not blame Nash for not playing but it would be nice if he at least showed up to support the team. I know he quit the program when Triano got booted but Leo needs to reach out and get him to at least show up to the games (even if it is just as a cheerleader) and maybe that might help him to recruit some of our other talent.

by McGateway on Sep 22, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

It just doesn’t make sense that Canada could be in competative in most games and not make to the second round. They had lost winnable games which can be placed on the issue of injuries that can be offset by more talented players and yes guys like the Josephs, Kabbongo, Ashoalu are included in that mix. Forget them and go with Blackwood, Sir and Russell Hicks. They may not be NBA stars but they can fill void at the very least.

And can we please get off of Nash. You can crucify him all you want but Canada Basketball is making due without him in uniform. Nash has said that he’s done so he’s done. Why would we continually look to invite a guy to a party who doesn’t want to be there and then talk about him when he’s made his intentions clear. It makes no sense. If he won’t support (and it should be saying something about the organization at the very least) then forget and move on.

Yes, Sacre needs to get tougher.

Yes, Young has always been underrated. Leo called him the backbone of the team.

We have a great future ahead.

Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com

by rbala on Sep 22, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

I respect that you all know more about Canadian BBall and players than I do – I am merely a casual expat fan haning out in the States but…..

Hicks? Sir?
 Scrubs poorly suited to FIba basketball or stars in the crappy Mexcican league (i didnt know they was one) can not filled the void for starters on championship teams in the ACB and A-1 Greek League. These players are miles and miles apart.
English, Young, Anderson etc are vets of Fiba basketball. If the team was stocked with Hicks, Sir and NCAA benchwarmers we would be seeing the WC results being more like the D1 team’s game against Greece. A 70 point plus loss.

I think you overestimate these names, and underestimate the experience,skill and understanding of FIBA play of the players we were missing from injury.

by Mojo J on Sep 24, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry for the awful spelling – I feel like a 10 year old.

You get my point though….

I want to see Canada climb in the ranks but I am skeptical it will happen soon (but hopeful). We keep talking about these kids coming up, but they have a long, long way to go.

by Mojo J on Sep 24, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

One other thing….what ever happened to Juan Mendez?

I have not seen his name in the Nat Team mix for a few years.

by Mojo J on Sep 24, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I totally get what you mean with regards to the some of the guys I’ve mentioned but to tell you the truth, guys like Bell, Sheppard, Kendall, Doornekamp currently on the team are not starters on their respective Euro teams. And really, what does it matter that a guy lights up the Mexican League? He’s still lighting up it and Steve Sir got a sniff from the T-Wolves this week for doing just that. And Hicks got a camp invite for the Lakers. I don’t think that is really anything to sneeze at. These are guys that are at capable of handling themselves at this level.

Yes the future is very bright and I’m looking to it also. I’m with you on the immediate time being no place for lofty expectations. That is just nonsense and unreasonable. Making the Worlds showed a good first step. I wouldn’t even expect next summer to be all that great an improvement unless more of the young talent is involved but even then it would need to be tempered.

As for Juan, I don’t know. I last heard he was killing it in Isreal but I haven’t heard much since last season. I’ll have to look into that because I’m curious too.

Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com

by rbala on Sep 24, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nash has not played since when? 2000? 2002?
Why do you say he has done his part? If he was a hockey player he would be crucified in the media for not pulling on the maple leaf.
He is so far the best player we have and fills completly our weakest areas (PG play, offence, go-to scorer, coaching). The Nat team would accomadate him in every way possible.
So many other bball players play for their country well into their 30’s and have far more heart for their country.
He is too busy playing soccer and making movies in his off-season. It is amazing how everyone is scared to critisize him.

by Mojo J on Sep 22, 2010 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Nash

Nash played his tail off for the team for over a decade, and he resigned when basketball Canada made the (obviously stupid) decision to pitch Triano (now a coach with the US team) in favour of Rautins – a guy who has never coached anywhere at any level. If BBall Canada isn’t going to take things seriously, why should Nash?

Factor in that Nash has a degenerative back injury and that playing full tilt in the off season so that he can be the best player on a terrible team, a team that manifestly doesn’t care what he thinks, and his absence is easy to understand.

by CamHilton on Sep 22, 2010 7:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Thank you. If he was a hockey player Rautins wouldn’t be the coach of the team. What does hockey have to do with our discussion here. We are talking about basketball which most of mainstream Canada still doesn’t care enough about.

by McGateway on Sep 23, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

PS> when was the last time a 37 or 38 year old player in hockey got crucified for not participating on a national team?

by McGateway on Sep 23, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Andrea's interview on an italian magazine

Q: You are about to go back to TO for the start of the training camp, what’s your attitude towards the next season?
A: I REALLy look forward to start again, to go back to my gym (in TO) we are a very young team, very dangerous because of that. We have for sure a big offensive talent, now let’s see what kind of chemestry we can develop during training camp.

Q: the bad new is the Raptors have lost Chris Bosh and Hedo Turk.
A: Tue, on the other hand it is not that with them we are coming froma winning season, we did not even make the playoffs, so we, as a team need to improve a lot.
Q another departure from the team was MArco Belinelli
A: I am really sorry to see MArco leaving, but I hope this will give him the chance to play as he deserve to do so and to show his worth.
Q: During the summer you have experienced for the first time to be the focal point of a team, a new experience from you?
A: Yes definetly. It made me learn something important, especially for the new season in TO.
Q: TO is not a candidate for the playoffs but you could be a candidate, the first Italian for the ASG, what do you need to do to get there?
A: Well, I need to keep working and improving like I did in every season, let’s see what happens.
Q: Lebron has been crucified for going to Miamo together with Bosh and Wae, do you see them as favourites?
A: With three players of that caliber, moreover surronded by other first level players, if they find a chemestry, they will become hard to beat.
Q:Lebron has been criticized for doing that, what do you think about what happened?
A: We are all entitled to make our choices, if he and his family are fine with the new situation, he was right to do it.
Q: garbage
A: he confirms that lady of the video is indeed his girlfriend.

sorry, no time for re reading, forgive the ( I am sure) various typos.

by renato on Sep 22, 2010 5:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank you renato for that translation. Too bad this is post about Canada’s national basketball team.

by McGateway on Sep 23, 2010 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

my view

I agree when you talk about bringing in guys like tristan blackwood, and some more NCAA talent, if a guy like sacre, and olynyk can be there, no reason why guys like andrew nicholson, olu ashaolu, harouna mutombo, kris, devoe and maurice joseph, junior cadougan, jared mintz, come on you know there is more talent I could mention. Another point I must make is basketball in canada will never reach its full potential until all the organizations in this country decide to work together. For too long a guy like Ro Russell who founded Grassroots Canada Basketball has been excluded from even having an advisory role for Canada Basketball and the junior and senior mens teams. Russell built Grassroots from nothing and until he and Canada Basketball can work together , there will always be agendas and no sense of working together for the greater good of the game in this country. Why do you think alot of the canadian guys playing pro over seas are not on the senior mens team? It is because alot of them have played for grassroots on the AAU circuit with Russell and grassroots and are loyal to that program and have a negative perception of the National Program. Guys like Patrick Tatham, Sefton Barrett, Kevin Massiah, Tristan Martin, are not even asked to try out for the National Program. Now i understand they have their own schedule overseas and it is not always possible to commit time to the National Team, but the point is these guys should be knocking the door down to want to play for team canada because of the exposure they would get and not to mention the pride associated when reppin your country. James Naismith would want Basketball to flourish in the country he was born, and until there is a cohesiveness to the way in which people operate basketball in this country it will be the same old story for Canada Basketball. I hope it changes with all the young guys coming up, so I still have hope. Here is a list of former Grassroots Canada Basketball guys who have played for Coach Ro Russell for those interested
http://www.grassrootscanadabasketball.com/players/

Also wayne dawkins and his Phase 1 group is organizing a touring Canadian Team to travel to europe and the states, I personally think Canada Basketball needs to fully support this initiative.

From http://www.phase1canada.com/elite/headline_news/report_week-1
“What may be the biggest development is the addition of a Elite 1’s Canadian Select Team. The team will consist of 12 of the top performing players in the EDBL as selected by the league coaches. The Canadian Select team will continue to practice throughout the summer and compete in the North American semi-pro United Men’s Basketball League and play exhibition games against various European teams. We look forward to seeing you at an Elite 1’s Development Basketball League Game. Together we can give Canadian basketball players and coaches the opportunities the rest of the world is enjoying right here in our backyard.”

by mystro88 on Sep 22, 2010 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks for the comments peeps.

Let’s assume that we don’t include the NCAA and HS guys, there would still be current pros like Sir, Blackwood, Morrison, etc who could fill in for the injured English and Young as well as Rautins and Rock. Can you replace what they give, maybe not totally but how can you know if they don’t a chance. The same could be said for the NCAA and HS guys.

So Leo may not be a great coach, I can concede that, but he was smart enough to surround himself with guys who are good coaches. They are giving more than they should at this point but he at least them for lean on.

I have said this in the past, Canada was lucky to get into the Worlds and it should have been viewed as a stepping stone. And well, it is what it is: A step in a direction. In what direction we’ll see in the next year or two. The target will be the Olympics now and working towards that, period.

Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com

by rbala on Sep 22, 2010 10:55 PM EDT reply actions  

It still comes down to the fact that, competitive or not, they laid a big egg. All the talk about them making the Worlds is ridiculous and means nothing if they can’t win. It reminds me of when Canada made the World cup (I think it was 88 or something because the US hosted it). Nothing ever came of that either (they didn’t even score a goal if I recall) and our national soccer team is a disgrace. I just do not want our basketball program to end up there so we need try and figure out how to move forward.

by McGateway on Sep 23, 2010 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Money is the bottom line

As crass as it sounds, if Basketball Canada had a big budget it could afford a lot of things that would improve the program such as:

- Effective training programs for youth coaches across the country so that kids get good instruction from an early age

- A scouting and development system for grooming promising youth(this is improving with the introduction of the cadet teams, but has a long way to go)

- Scouting trips to Europe and other locals to keep tabs on Canadian hoopsters and when possible to help them develop their professional careers (Maurizio seems to be helping a bit in this regard)

- Providing extra funding for worthy programs like Grassroots Canada Basketball that would forge links between the two organizations and bring all the players under the same overall umbrella

- The ability to organize more training camps and friendlies to get a better look at the full pool of players that might be available

- Better promotion of the various national teams and possibly hosting some competitive games in Canada in the future

There are so many ways that Basketball Canada could develop the sport in this country, especially given its popularity and the number of participants. Unfortunately, a lot of it comes down to money and until recently Bball Canada has been broke(even now they are not exactly flush). I don’t know what the answer for fixing that problem might be: more gov’t funding, more sponsorships/corporate dollars, fundraising, find a few wealthy benefactors, selling chocolate bars…

One last and very important element is the people involved. Wayne Parrish seems to have done a good job and Maurizio has helped as well. They need to also engage guys on the ground like Ray Rana, Ro Russell, etc who have experience on the ground in Canada developing players. Those guys live to teach the game and if you can help them do that then I am sure they are going to be receptive.

by DW19 on Sep 23, 2010 10:26 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree with the money situation. I think that has something to do with it. Having the money would allow for more “together time” with the team and I think better chemistry. Also I think the extra money should be put together to a longer session of National Team training, like say 4 months as opposed to 7 weeks that include travel to foreign countries to get mashed while in training mode. It’s sad to say that cash rules everything around success of this situation.

Ray Bala
CANadian BasketBALL Report
on www.raptorhq.com

by rbala on Sep 24, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

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