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More on Kleiza and Andersen

Continuing our outside look at the newest Raptors, the HQ touches base with SB Nation's Denver Stiffs and Dream Shake regarding Linas Kleiza and David Andersen...

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Sometimes the best way to get a good take on a player is to ask someone who covered said player on a former team.

We did that earlier in the week regarding Leandro Barbosa as SB Nation's "Bright Side of the Sun" broke things down.  We recently reached out to two more of SB Nation's finest basketbloggers, Andrew Feinstein from the Nuggets' blog Denver Stiffs, and Tom Martin from the Rockets' blog The Dream Shake, to get their take on two of Toronto's off-season acquisitions; Linas Kleiza and David Andersen.

Here were their thoughts, starting with Kleiza:

First off, everyone in Denver liked Linas Kleiza and he was missed last season.  How often do you have a player off your bench who can go for 40-plus points (as LK did once against the Jazz a few seasons ago) on any given night?  If I had one word to describe Kleiza, it would be "fearless" - and this was good and bad for the Nuggets.  Good because regardless of what the score was, Kleiza played aggressively, never hesitated on open shots and routinely took the ball strong to the rack when the Nuggets offense got stagnant. 
 
And bad because regardless of what the score was, Kleiza played aggressively and never hesitated to shoot.
 
Kleiza treated his off-the-bench minutes with a Carlos Delfino-esque "hey, they're not giving me a lot of minutes anyway so I might as well shoot while I'm out here" style.  Which in many instances saved the Nuggets or at least made them very competitive in situations they weren't otherwise (see the 2008 playoffs first round versus the Lakers when only Kleiza and J.R. Smith showed up in what became a first-round sweep).
 
As I'm sure Raptors fans are well aware of, Kleiza doesn't play defense particularly well.  Check that, he plays no defense.  But he's a tough player who can score in bunches and jump start a stagnant offense off the bench.  I'm happy to see him back in the NBA and hope he finds more playing time in Toronto than he did in Denver.

So a mixed bag here but you have to love the word "fearless" associated with him.  Toronto desperately needs more players of this ilk so having a tough, rugged force at the 3-4 who will get to the rim will be a major boost, especially in the wake of Bosh's departure.

From there we move to Andersen, a hotly contested player on the site hilariously enough considering how little he may play.

The crux of the issue regarding the former Rocket is just that however; will Andersen be viewed as a player who Colangelo and co. expect to play significant minutes and contribute or is he simply a smart financial transaction that in the long run gives the team more flexibility?

From Tom's breakdown, let's hope it's the latter.

David Andersen is instant offense, perhaps as much instant offense as you'll see out of a relatively unheard of 6'11 foreigner. He averaged 14.8 points per 36 minutes last season, which is incredibly nice to have off the bench. If Big Dave catches the ball in the post and has a one-on-one matchup, he's got a good chance at converting. His turnaround jumper is, for lack of a better word, water.


But that's it. That's all David Andersen can do, and we're overrating him a bit even then. Andersen can shoot threes modestly, but his true shooting percentage as a Rocket was a less-than-inspiring 50%. You'd like to see better from a player whose calling card (and only card) is his offense.


Andersen hurts you defensively. As Raptors fans know well by now, just because a player is tall and mobile does not mean that he can suddenly "use his quickness" (or something along those lines) to play good defense. David Andersen hurts a team defensively and doesn't rebound much either. He's another one of those tall guys who can shoot and play the perimeter, which sorta contradicts the whole purpose of having a tall guy (that purpose being to command control of the paint).  (And as an aside, I thought Toronto already had enough guys like this?)


You'll love Dave because he is funny and can score in bunches, but other than that, I'm really, really glad that Bryan Colangelo took him off our hands.  Dave is as developed as he'll ever be at this point, regardless of how little NBA experience he has. What you'll see from the start is what you'll get.

That pretty much echoes my thoughts post-trade, but again, if it comes down to simply an opportunity to turn a trade exception into an expiring contract as many of our astute readers pointed out, then go BC go.

A big thanks to both blogs for giving us their take and next week we'll grab one final viewpoint, this one from SB Nation's Hornets blog, "At the Hive," regarding Mr. Julian Wright.

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Two rotation players (one of whom is probably the starter at SF) who can’t play defence joining one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA. Nothing like addressing a glaring need with a trade or free agent signing. It’s going to be a long season…

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Aug 14, 2010 9:28 AM EDT reply actions  

It will be interesting to see how Kleiza does. I can’t say that I have watched him a great deal but 82games.com has some really intersting numbers on him. He played more PF than SF in Denver obviously due to Carmelo eating up most of the small forward minutes. And yes, Kleiza’s production at PF is not very good. At small forward, its a different story. Hoopsworld commented on how much better he was at the SF position and the numbers look good both offensively and defensively. He outshoots, outscores and outrebounds his opponent from the SF position (not so at PF). What I like is his rebounding numbers which look good as a SF. Have a look at the numbers: http://www.82games.com/0809/08DEN11.HTM

While I know numbers don’t always tell the full story, I am reserving judgement on Kleiza. It is quite possible that we get someone who is relatively young and who was largely used at the wrong position in the past. Time will tell.

by cmrm123 on Aug 14, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is a great breakdown cmrm123 – it’s a bit of a wait and see process as a long of how useful Kleiza will be probably depends on how the coaching staff uses him. At face value he has some of the same issues that have plagued this team the past few years (all O, no D) but at the 3 he and Julian Wright could be an interesting combo hopefully complementing each other.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 14, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Raptors desperately need a good rebounder at the SF position if they’re going to continue to roll out Bargs at the 4 or 5. Hopefully the Raps don’t make the same mistake as the Nuggets and play Kleiza out of position.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Aug 14, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're missing the point

Notice how the focus of acquisitions has been young players with good defensive potential. Having a piece like Kleiza that’s instant offense takes a lot of pressure off those other players to score and allows them to use their energies on the defensive end to offset Kleiza’s apparent shortcomings. So, in a scenario with Kleiza on the floor, you allow Amir to be Amir without having to worry about scoring so much, or you allow Davis to utilize the abilities he’s more comfortable with at the moment (the defensive ones) so that he’s still helping the team without scoring. Even pairing Kleiza with Wright at the 4 allows for a decent offensive/defensive balance that may not have been available to the team last year. Don’t know how much Anderson will play, but Anderson being offensive and Davis being defensive sounds like a reasonable pairing.

In previous years, and last year, especially, the team would have been well served if Bosh would have focused his energies more on the defensive end and simply allowed someone like Andrea to carry the offensive load, primarily because Bosh had shown an ability to play defense at a higher level. If he had spent his offseasons becoming more defensive minded then the Bosh Bargnani pairing might have worked better or at least as it was envisioned to work.

Colangelo is bringing in instant offense vets, and drafting/trading for young players who have the potential to be very good defensively. It might be worth giving him more credit than you’re usually willing to, but then again you’re mind seems made so, I guess not.

Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.

by HQ Interloper on Aug 14, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he had spent his offseasons becoming more defensive minded then the Bosh Bargnani pairing might have worked better or at least as it was envisioned to work.

Yes, an All-Star player like Bosh should’ve turned himself into a poor man’s version of Ben Wallace in order to accomodate a soft-as-butter big man like Bargs. Three quarters of his shots are jumpers and he barely gets to the line – exactly the type of player you want to focus your offence on.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Aug 14, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, gotta agree with D-Stance here. Tough to see how making an inefficient offensive player the go-to option makes much sense considering that regardless of how you feel about CB4, he was one of the most efficient scorers in the league thanks to his ability to get to the line and score from inside and out.

Bargs has some work to do in that area but he’ll certainly get his shot this year.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 15, 2010 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

My pops is a big Olympiakos fan and he is really high on the Raps picking up Kleiza. He plays a very different game than what I have been reading on many websites the last month or so. I think Fenstein gives a pretty good analysis of his offence. Apparently he really shone last year in Europe and his numbers in Euroleague speak to that. I think he averaged 17pts/gm, which is quite high in Europe where the offence is spread around. In addition, he “supposedly” improved defensively quite a bit in the more fast-paced European game. What this means for us I still don’t know, but my understanding is that he is not just a guy who likes to chuck from outside. He loves to drive to the hoop and has a sweet touch around the basket. Anyway, I thought I would chime in!

by Assistant GM on Aug 14, 2010 10:32 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m looking at Kleiza as maybe being another Garbajosa – maybe not “quick on his feet,” but wiley, strong, and hopefully able to do a decent job in order to stay on the floor, where it’s his offensive game that could really help the team.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 14, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

God, we can only hope he’s 1/5th the smarts Garbajosa has… Remember that Garbajosa could defend his player blindfolded and with an arm tied behind his back…. And smoking a cuban.

(Please someone make a picture of this) :)

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Aug 14, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Come on photoshop!

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 15, 2010 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still do not see the point of doing Houston a favour here, especially if they cannot get him out in a trade. Why bother carrying a salary we don’t need?

by McGateway on Aug 14, 2010 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Here we go again

We are not carrying his salary…..Houston is (at least a major chunk of it if not all of it). To save paying double his salary due to the tax hit, Houston paid us to take him off their books. Plus, as has been discussed to death, an expiring is more flexible than a TPE. And please lets not start again on the phantom draft pick we gave up.

by cmrm123 on Aug 14, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Essentially, if Andersen is viewed by BC and co. as a useful player, he proves to be as dreadful as he was in Houston, AND Colangelo fails to move his expiring deal to get some real help, then yes McGateway, the Raptors are essentially doing the Rockets one big favour and should be labeled as suckers.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 14, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, if he is an epic failure, he probably won’t see a lot of floor time (if the backup C is gonna suck, might as well give the minutes to Alabi for development). So worst case, his salary is plaid by Houston, and he takes up one more spot on the roster – which is a problem seriously overblown by a lot of people.

Sure, maybe you can see the deal as a favour to the Rockets in the worst case, but it still cost the Raps almost nothing – and what’s wrong with establishing good trading relationships with other teams?

by dhackett1565 on Aug 14, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

an expiring contract is always good to have, especially as we are starting all over again. remember this team isnt built for the playoffs at the moment. even if anderson doesnt pan out, teams who arent going to make the playoffs and want to shed salary before the deadline, wouldnt mind taking anderson, especially if the raptors use him with another contract to take on anothers team higher paid player. even if we just play out the season with him, fine, but we only lose our 2015 CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick (Houston will never see it). and maybe our 2.5 TPE. but even so, that TPE expires. BUT, by the way our team is constructed, its all about offense, i can see anderson playing better than he did in houston. like you said, he’s all about offense, so this will definitely increase his value around the league. not much of course but enough to be able to trade. but even so, hes still an expiring contract so he’s still valuable.

houston only wanted to get rid of him to open space for another player, maybe younger who they can develop. they are a playoff team, which were not, so its better for them to rid of an older player whos just expiring. toronto is rebuilding, expiring contract are great to have. why is it so much we did houston a favour. TPE expires. Expiring contracts allows team to get under the cap. it was a win win for both teams. if he plays great, that even better for us. and really mcgateway, does it really matter were carry a salary we dont need. its not our money. its not like his salary put us over the cap. hes just a player whos expiring deal is nice to have on a team. all teams carry contracts they dont need, but they all need to carry 15 players on their team. its not like POB and marcus banks contracts were needed on this team. theyre just depth.

by tea time on Aug 14, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but he doesn’t count against Houston’s cap, he counts against ours and he takes up a roster spot. Even 100 million dollars from Houston would change that.

by McGateway on Aug 14, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares

We are over the cap anyways so we cannot sign anyone (beyond the minimum salary) anyways so who cares if he is in our cap number. I’m also amazed by this constant fascination with roster spots. We have 15 spots but will end up with a rotation of 9-10 players. We can only dress 12. So who cares.

by cmrm123 on Aug 14, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Roster spots on this team are more important than you think. If there are any injuries to the forwards Anderson could end up seeing playing time. Not the point though, it would be better going into the season if we had an open roster spot in the event that someone plays well in the D-league and we would like to give them a shot. Besides, why pay someone not to play when we don’t have to. The Clippers took Adams from us because it benefits them to move closer to the cap (they were under the cap at the time) not just as a favour to the Raptors. I still do not see what the Raptors get if they don’t move Anderson. It may be a moot concern as BC could move him but then again, maybe he won’t. Until the trade deadline passes though it is up in the air.

by McGateway on Aug 15, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Totally agree…this one’s a “wait and see” transaction for me.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 15, 2010 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

" Besides, why pay someone not to play when we don’t have to." This has been covered – we are not – his salary is basically being paid by the Rockets.

Also, if you can make the argument that we MIGHT need a roster spot and therefore this is a bad move, I can make the argument that BC might find a deal that he can do with the extra expiring contract picked up that will benefit the team, and therefore it is a good move.

by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the Raptors need to open a roster spot couldn’t they cut Anderson or buy him out(with Houston’s money)? Does anyone know the exact rules on that?

by DW19 on Aug 16, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any player can be waived – this will open a roster spot, but the team will still have to pay the player, and the salary will still count against the cap. So, yes this is a very viable option if the need arose.

A buyout would have to be negotiated – and the cap hit would be two years long (due to his partially guaranteed contract next year). Waiving would probably actually save the team more money than a buyout would.

by dhackett1565 on Aug 17, 2010 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

How is it being paid? Is there a special rule that Houston is going to carry the cap number? Just because Houston gave Toronto the money to take his salary doesn’t mean Toronto isn’t paying his salary. Houston could have just as easily paid Toronto for the 2nd round pick. I am not saying they should have but they could have.
You still haven’t told me what the long term benefit is to Toronto if they don’t trade him?

by McGateway on Aug 19, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hate the offseason

when david anderson becomes a big deal we know we have hit rock bottom lol

by raptors_run_the_show on Aug 14, 2010 3:05 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious

by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Aug 14, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the Belli trade...

I think it is a bit of a shame to have given up on Bellinelli, I feel once again he hasn’t really been given a consistant role. I read a piece on Belli’s defence that showed Belli to be our best wing defender last year, and he seemed to bring something the Raps were lacking last year, but wasn’t part of the Young Guns brand. I think if he were given DD’s role last year he definitely would have produced better results – and we only needed one more win. I understand that we need to develop DD, but we did that at the cost of developing Belli. It will be interesting to see who has a better season this year.

Walker McKenna

by Robert Archibald on Aug 15, 2010 7:36 AM EDT reply actions  

This one’s tough for me.

At face value, there was a lot to like about Marco’s game. He actually was much more statistically effective than DeRozan last year and really should have gotten more minutes. He also was one of the few wings who aggressively went to the rim and while he did take some circus shots and liked to jack it up, I think in the right situation he would have been a nice fit.

The problem is, the Raps have so many guys like that now, players who are pretty similar in skill-set or in talent level – essentially “fringe starters” on the team so something had to give.

It’s an interesting question though, one that I think will become an issue if Marco plays well off the bench in NO and Wright proves to be as useless as he has in the past…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Aug 15, 2010 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Trees in the forrest

You are right Franchise, this could be analysed to death but at the end of the day, these guys are all fringe players that are more or less interchangeable parts. I think this is one thing that I worry about with BC is that he is good for trading crap bench guys for good bench guys. When he turns Araujo into Humphries he looks like a genius, but when you are fighting for a playoff spot you need better than good bench guys. You gotta be lucky to be good, and winning the top pick the year we did was not lucky. I’m a big Bargs backer, but in fairness he really is just a good bench player. He could have been Durant, LeBron – any of the top picks in the past 10 years (except Kwame) and the fortunes of this team would be VERY different. I can’t blame Bargs or even BC for where Bargs was drafted, it was just a weak draft and an unlucky year to have the top pick. Hopefully all the hustle on this years team will make some of its own luck.

Walker McKenna

by Robert Archibald on Aug 15, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

He could even have drafted Roy or Gay and this team would look very different too.

by McGateway on Aug 15, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Could've, Would've, Should've

Anybody can be a genius with the benefit of hindsight. Go back and check the mock drafts. The consensus had Gay going 4th and Roy going 6th. Roy wasn’t even the first player drafted by the team that drafted him. It was a lousy year to have the first pick. Could we have done better….sure. Could we have done worse….hell ya. How would you feel about Adam Morrison or Sheldon Williams right now.

http://www.nba.com/draft2006/consensus.html

by cmrm123 on Aug 15, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Roy was placed anywhere between 4th and 9th on the eight rankings they had listed there. Just FYI. And Bargnani was ranked 1st on all but one – where he was ranked 2nd.

by dhackett1565 on Aug 15, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL @ consensus, seeing as there was no real consensus pick that is a completely ludicrous argument. The Raptors needs at the time was a Guard not a forward, Roy and Gay were the best available (depending on whether you believe Gay is a true guard or not). End of story.

by McGateway on Aug 19, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

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