The Bosh Era Ends, the Kleiza Era Begins?
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jul 8, 2010 9:05 AM EDT
164 comments
Members of the HQ team give their thoughts on the end of an era in Toronto...and on the new one that is set to begin with the signing of Linas Kleiza...
It's fitting that I woke this morning to news that with the Humidex it will feel like 41 degrees outside in Toronto today.
Yes, the expression "hot as hell" did flash through my mind and that seems apropos for a few reasons:
1) Yesterday Chris Bosh decided to take his act to Miami for next season, an NBA environment often lauded for its desirable climate, especially compared to Toronto.
2) In the wake of Bosh's departure, it's quite possible that fans of the Toronto Raptors are about to enter an era of basketball that may indeed resemble hell.
3) And, it might feel like 41 degrees outside to most of us, but to Bryan Colangelo, the architect of what right now looks to be a 28 win team next season, it probably feels a lot closer to 106.
And rightfully so.
Colangelo paraded into Toronto on a platform of playoff success promises, armed with a perennial All-Star, loads of cap space and the top overall pick in the draft...and in four years somehow managed to put the franchise behind where it was when he rolled into town.
-Jermaine O'Neal
-PJ Tucker
These are the more blatant examples of transactions made by BC that simply did not work, we're not even getting into the Andrea Bargnani's or DeMar DeRozan's which still look shaky.
This was supposed to be one of the top five most savvy minds in all of basketball yet under his watch he's developed nary an All-Star (Bosh was pre BC tenure), has managed to tie the team's hands financially, and has done something possibly more egregious, as pointed out by colleague Bruce Arthur of the National Post; potentially handing a team a dynasty, something that won't go over well with rival GM's.
Again, to a point Howland made last week:
"I'm pretty sure Rob Babcock could have done this."
I'm guessing we'll get an idea of just how much work Colangelo has to do later this evening when LeBron James ends his "which team should I choose" saga. If he chooses Miami, then suddenly Toronto's sign-and-trade options are probably out the window as Bosh (and probably the other two as well) will have to take less money to make sure the Heat can fill out their roster.
It's not a pretty scene for Toronto Raptors fans, losing Bosh equates to about 12 wins a year according to Dave Berri's "Wages of Wins" site and considering Toronto only won 40 last year...
That's why it's a good thing that Bryan Colangelo is doing his damnedest to replace Bosh and as of minutes ago, Yahoo Sports is reporting that the Raptors will sign free-agent forward Linas Kleiza to a four-year $20M offer sheet.
Who needs Bosh's 12 wins a year on average when you can get Kleiza's 0.7 right?!
I just don't get it.
I like Kleiza, but for the mid-level essentially? And what about the likes of Travis Outlaw and Ronnie Brewer, players with skill-sets that this team desperately needs? Did management even consider these types?
The Raptors are announcing the Amir Johnson signing today at 1 but I'm not even sure I can bring myself to go down to the ACC and participate. Much like the Ed Davis and Solomon Jones announcements, I'm guessing there will be very little time dedicated to asking Colangelo what the hell happened with Bosh, so I think I'll keep my recorder in pocket until Vegas next week.
Maybe by then I'll have cooled off a bit, both in terms of my thoughts towards the mis-management of this team, and in terms of this heat-wave Toronto is currently experiencing on various levels.
I'll leave it at that this morning, and give my co-anchor Howland the final word on the legacy of Chris Bosh, a player I'm hoping fans realize simply did in the end what everyone else would have done had they been in a similar situation.
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As everyone waits for LeBron James to announce his intentions tonight at 9 PM on ESPN we didn't think it was appropriate to let another day go by before talking about Chris Bosh at least once more.
Unless you have been hiding under a rock or you are focused entirely on the World Cup you know by now that Toronto's franchise player has decided to uproot and leave the only team he has ever known. Sunny South Beach has called and Mr. Bosh has answered.
You can try and analyse his decision to leave countless ways. If it was a decision based on weather then of course it made sense. If it was purely a basketball decision it also made sense. If it was all about "winning", as Bosh has suggested countless times ,there didn't seem to be much choice either.
Now Toronto is left with a gaping hole in its front court and the face of the franchise is now...well....we're not sure exactly.
Make no mistake, yesterday was a bad day for the Toronto Raptors franchise and for Toronto Raptors fans. The team, and the city, lost the best basketball player it has ever had and that player is just reaching his prime.
You can definitely argue that Bosh could have dealt with this free-agency circus in a more professional manner but you can't argue with what he managed to do in the time he wore the Raptors jersey.
Coming into the league Bosh was a lanky PF who had a lot of growing to do as a player and questions were quickly being asked about his ability to put on weight, develop a consistent jumper and become a leader. The pressure to become great was amplified when a certain someone whined his way out of town and fans were looking for someone to lessen the sting.
Bosh answered the bell.
Look at his body when he entered the league and compare it to today...actually it is not comparable. As he grew as a man his offensive game grew as well. Over time he has become a dominant power forward with a refined and somewhat unique skill set. He also embraced the challenge of being this team's leader on and off the court. Was or is he a great leader? Probably not but he had no choice but to lead the players around him.
So to Chris Bosh - Thanks. You made the past seven years of Raptors basketball watchable. In times of Omar Cook, Loren Woods and Rafer Alston you were the shining light. We applaud you for your efforts while in Toronto and wish you the best in Miami.
If your departure tells Raptors fans anything it is this - despite being told the contrary this team is "a long way off."
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Time
Let’s judge the future after all is said and done.
Bosh, in my opinion, will end up doing more work in Miami. The team, what team, is missing. As the saying goes, the grass is not always greener……
Time
Should have added – one injury and Miami is toast
Salt.
As in, “Signing Linas Kleiza simply adds salt to my wounds.” Don’t get me wrong, I like Kleiza, but only in the 3 yr/9 mil range, not a 4 year full midlevel. Like you said, why not Brewer or Outlaw?
I cannot possibly believe that the BC era has turned out the way it did. I’m flabbergasted, and the fact he’s not going into complete and total rebuild mode only makes it worse. Linas fucking Kleiza? I’d prefer to have Uros Slokar back.
3 yr/9 mil range?
Denver will very likely match.
Bosh=Good?
Based on what? Pro sports are about wins and he never made us a better team.(that division title had everything to do with the shit division that season, and nothing to do with the Raps—and we still got beat by Carter and the old Nets easily) We’ll win 30-35 this year without him and people will say we"missed" him, but you know what the bottom line is: we never won with him and we ain’t gonna win now either. He would have been massive waste of money and I’m glad he’s gone.
While I agree that we’re better off not overpaying Bosh, your argument that “we didn’t win anything with him, so he’s no good” is beyond flimsy. It takes a complicated, multi-faceted issue and turns it into a jingoism, all without really adding to the discourse.
by RaptorsAddict on Jul 8, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
then isn't
the “he didn’t have good enough players therefore its all managements fault” argument flimsy? As it is also a complicate and multi-faceted issue.
(by the way thats real bad use of the term jingoism, but not relevant)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Bosh=Very Good. Please stop watching basketball...
you are bringing down the collective IQ of the posters on this site with your presence alone.
Klieza?
I am easily the biggest BC defender but Klieza for 5mil? That’s in line with Kapono and Hedo in terms of misjudging talent. I don’t know how much longer I can defend BC as a good GM. Klieza???
I’ll be taking a break from all things raptors now. Have a good summer everyone, see u in October :).
Kind of stings doesn't it...
I mean waking up from being a Colangelo supporter and realizing “wait a minute… WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE!!”
I remember when it happened for me, it was the Kapono signing. I really started to second guess everything after that.
I can only imagine what it’s like for you, now at this late stage, waking up at this point. It must be like the movie “Hangover” – like waking up, crazy headache, dry mouth, room is spinning/throbbing, place is a freaking disaster, you go to take a leak in the washroom… and there’s a F’N TIGER GROWLING AT YOU!! WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED HERE!! LOL Welcome to reality brother! : )
I'm with you
I only want talented youth and picks. If true, this is truely disappointing. Not surprising as BC was hot for him before, but disappointing.
Franchise, regarding your comment on Kleiza (“I just don’t get it”).
Here is a synopsis of Colangelo’s thought process on this one:
Q: Is Kleiza from North America?
A: No.
BC: SIGN HIM! GIVE HIM $20 million!! Quick ,before anyone else offers him TWENTY MILLION!!!
(umm.. which would never happen).
That’s it guys. It’s done. We are now capped out for quite some time and stuck with a 30 to 35 win team for the foreseable futre. Not bad enough to get good draft picks. Not god enough to even make the playoffs.
Re: Kleiza
The way this team is being assembled the only hope is the sum is better than it’s parts.
Kleiza – Nice piece to a team that is in contention. Not sure they is a lot to be gained here (as of this moment) for the Raps. I mean it’s “OK” but there is still a ton of work to be done.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 8, 2010 9:54 AM EDT reply actions
The funny thing is...
Is there a legitimate starter on this entire capped out roster at this point (never mind All-Star). Seriously, would ANY of these players start over anyone on the Lakers, Celtics? I think this may be history, a team that has spent the entire cap and does not have ONE boarderline All-Star…
how about
the new york knicks of a couple of seasons ago.
Perfect example!
Yes you are probably right! But that just solidifies my point. That team was ran by arguably the worst GM in NBA history – Isaiah Thomas. We are now legitimately in the Isaiah Zone up here! GOOD TIMES!
Seriously?
I could just imagine the following happening with you.
You wake up in the morning, see your significant other putting some flour on the kitchen counter and you start complaining about the flour. Couple of minutes later, they pull out some eggs, you forget about the flour, and start complaining about the eggs. When they pull out the sugar from the cupboard, you forget about the eggs and start complaining about how sugar for breakfast isn’t good. They go for the milk and butter, and you forget about the sugar, and start complaining about how milk and butter are too many calories, and go stomping out of the kitchen.
Half an hour later, your significant other puts a plate of pancakes in front of you.
Now, the pancakes might turn out amazing, so so, or bad. They might be so bad, you decide to find another girlfriend, boyfriend, or wife/husband. But (a) He/she tried and (b) It would have been better to wait for the pancakes before expending so much energy complaining.
I, seeing all the ingredients in play, would kind of figure something’s up, even though some ingredients might look questionable at first, or cost a little more than I would have spent on them, there are times when it’s better to just wait for the pancakes.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
That analogy is just strange… But following your thought patter here (difficult mind you):
The eggs and milk were spoiled, the flour and sugar were rancid, and all ingrediants were over paid for. Therefore, I’m not at all surprised that the pankaces are a complete disaster.
You on the other hand are happy to eat rotten, rancid food with a grin.
I get Interloper's point
But a good indication of the future is one based on the past. I understand that hindsight is always 20/20, but doesn’t that mean that our foresight can now be 20/20? Almost every big bang that BC has made over his tenure, has fizzled out and turned into a bust. A more appropriate analogy would be that this same girlfriend has always made crappy pancakes, so the chances of her making good ones are very slim. So yes, I am going to complain about every ingredient she puts into them until I am fed up and find a new girlfriend. The time has come, BC, I’m sorry it’s not you it’s me, and I don’t really like pancakes to begin with.
Its a weak argument
to say because these guys wouldn’t start on one of the elite teams in the league they are therefore not legitimate starters.
Would Ray Allen start over Kobe on the lakers? Would Perkins start over Bynum? They must therefore not be legitimate starters right?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not really understanding many of the statements NotSoFriendlyStranger is making
We aren’t comparing Ray Freakin Allen to Kobe, we are comparing the current Raptors roster to any decent team in the league. Which is not comparable, which is probably why the Raptors didn’t make the playoffs. Instead let’s bitch about the best player in franchise history, or better yet well take starters on playoff teams (ahem, Wright) and have them come off the bench after Demar Derozan, (who granted is a seasoned NBA player with tons of experience) and call it the development of a future star. And when he turns into a suckfest because he’s been conditioned to think that he deserves minutes even though he doesn’t, we’ll call it Bargnani 2.0.
"Seriously, would ANY of these players start over anyone on the Lakers, Celtics"
stated right in the psoting
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
umm the side
that says this argument is ridiculous.
If any Raptors starter is not good enough because they wouldn’t start for X team, then it stands to reason any other player in the league who wouldn’t start for X team is therefore not good enough either.
Which is silly.
There are numerous teams Bargs, Hedo, Jose, Jack (and maybe even Amir, Weems or Derozan) could start for. Just because they aren’t for an elite team doesn’t therefore make them not good enough to be starters.
You are comparing silver to gold, and saying because silver is not as valuable it is therefore worthless.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t say any team, I said decent team. And the argument is not ridiculous. By your logic the Raptors are fine then, and even better without Bosh. So let’s just see how next season turns out. And if Gold=Wins and Silver=The Raptors Last Season, then yes silver is worthless. Don’t try to confuse people with your inane analogies.
Umm first off
I was replying to the original poster. (you just picked up on it in his defense.. and changed the very statement I had an issue with.) I quote “Seriously, would ANY of these players start over anyone on the Lakers, Celtics”
My analogy had nothing to do with wins or the Raps last season, so you trying to twist it means nothing. Just because a player may not be good as the best (or an all-star) doesn’t mean that they are worthless. That was my point.
I also never said the Raps are fine, and I never said next season would be good. As it is with half the posts on here the passion (I’d use anger really) towards the Raps is twisting people right now.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, anger seems to be the emotion
I just ate lunch so I’m not so angry any more. I didn’t even read the original post… I guess I was arguing my point with yours which weren’t really connected. At least we have Kleiza right? (crickets)
I also
initially assumed you were the initial poster :)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what is ridiculous, reducing my argument to such a narrow interpretation. Obviously, my point is, this current Raptors roster is void of any thing approaching All-Star talent and is capped out. Pretty simple. Sorry you were not able to get your head arround it…
Sure some players could start for other teams, but they would be the 4th at best, or 5th option and the 2nd or 1st worst player in that starting line-up IF that team had aspirations of being succesful.
I guess sometimes you have to spoon feed people…
so what you are saying is
what you initially said was not true, and I should not take what you say to be what you actually mean… and thats why I misinterpretted what you were saying.
Gotcha. Silly me.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
No, no… Sorry, I guess I have to speak slowly or try again. Close your eyes and pay attention now…
Here are the points I initially made
- Are there any legitimate starters on this squad
- Would any of them start for the Lakers or Celtics (OBVIOUSLY used as EXAMPLES as they were the two teams that made the finals) and the answer is no.
-This team is capped out and not ONE BOARDERLINE All-Star.
All legitimate points or questions that point to a Franchise in complete disaray.
so let me get this straight
You just happened to use the 2 best teams as examples to prove your point. Ok gotcha.
The thing is, I was saying they are horrible examples because they ARE the two best teams in the league, and I can find numerous examples of players who are beyond legitimate starters (and all-stars) who still wouldn’t start for those two teams. Hence why you need to look at teams as a whole, and I’m sure you can find starting jobs for many of the Raps starters.
Which you seem to agree with when you say “Sure some players could start for other teams,”
But I will say I’m done with converstation.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really
The only teams that the starters on the raps would start for would be teams that also probably won’t make the playoffs. He is saying that for a team that is capped out, we should have more to show for it. And I don’t think BC’s orginal intention was to blow through the salary cap, and not make the playoffs every year.
Thank you!
My point exactly… you probably captured it better than I did : )
The good news
Denver might match.
Not likely though.
Quit whining
Seriously all this whining is just sad. So what if Bosh left, it’s not like BC didn’t do everything he could to keep him. Personally I’m going to cheer for the players that want to be Raptors.
And still crying
I’m sure you could have done better…
That's just silly.
I’m not supposed to be a legitimate NBA Excecutive.
but still
who would have been good enough (that was available and would have come) in order to keep Bosh?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh Jesus
Are you trying to say that in 4 years there haven’t been any decent free agents other than Hedo?
just want to know who
these decent FAs are that WOULD have come? you know the ones that would have been good enough to entice Bosh to stay.
Considering FAs have a tendency to turn the Raps down (Ariza, Salmons)… or leave (don’t think I need a list) I wouldn’t mind a listing of those who were available and WOULD HAVE come.
Big difference between those available and those accessible.
Fact is Raps have to over pay to get FAs to come (and they have never been anywhere close to great), then fans complain about overpaying FAs and never getting good enough FAs.
It sucks, I know. But they don’t come. Keeing Bosh through obtaining FAs was not going to happen. Building through the draft would, but then the team would not have been good enough and Bosh would have left anyways.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You know who would have been better than Hedo? How about nobody. NY and NJ are probably going to go into this season under the cap (baring something crazy happening). At some point Team X is going to want to move a contract off their books because they are not really in contention and they are over the luxury tax or just want to clear space for Melo’s FA class. If the Raptors had done that, it might have been possible to take on someone like Jason Richardson who was available back at the beginning of the season and whose contract expires after the end of 2011 season, right in time for Lockout 2011 (btw this just one example, not necessarily the best example). Do you think the Raptors would have been any worse off if Hedo didn’t come here and DD and Weems played the 2/3 with Belinelli backing up the 2? Plus he could have traded Bosh last year and got something for him as opposed to whatever drek he can get now from Miami, which is looking like nothing at all. So, yes, there were plenty of better options then signing HST.
ok Hedo better than nobody
I’m down with that. But who would have been the guy who was GOOD enough to keep Bosh. Isn’t that the whole point of the thread?
Richardson, fine example. So who do we trade for him? What would have been on our roster that Phoenix or Charlotte (depending on the time) would have wanted or taken? Its all “may haves”, “maybe’s” etc, with no substance. Thats the point. Its easy to say, this wasn’t good enough, its alot more difficult to find out what really was available. No one here sits in on the meetings, or is involved with these players to actually know.
All we do know is Toronto has a very short list of FA signings (none of them good… except Jack… but none all-star material) a list of FA who rejected Toronto and a long list of FAs and Players wanting out.
Trading Bosh (while an option I agree with) is irrelevant if the debate is who shoudl have been brought in to keep him. Most of this angst against BC is due to Bosh leaving.
Everyone always says what was wrong or what went wrong. Nobody takes the time to realize they weren’t involved in the process and don’t know what the Raps options really were.
P.S. I got torn apart 2 years ago when I said Bosh should be traded (right after he turned down the extension) and there was no way he would be staying a Rap. “You don’t trade all-stars”, “you won’t get value”, “he is the kind of guy you build around” etc etc. So now that the time period is over its pretty easy to look back and say Bosh should have been moved. Just like its easy to say that the brass should have put better players around him.
Its those ‘should haves’ that are tough to actually figure out at the time.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
as I re-read
what you posted, I realize I misread what you wrote about Richardson.
However which leads me to realize there are still no “alternative solutions” as to what WOULD have been good enough to keep Bosh.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Ultimately, my point was that it would have been better to do nothing and with FA, simply make the trades we made last year and either roll the dice that this team was going to get better organically or trade Bosh last summer for something of value, even if it was just draft picks. It had been pretty clear to some people that the Raptors would have to do more than just make the playoffs and maybe even get to the second round for Bosh to be happy. As it turned out, maybe anything short of winning the championship might not have been enough to keep him.
that still doesn't relate
to those who complain about the “team around Bosh” was not good enough.
I agree with you. This team needed to be bad before it was good. Bosh wasn’t staying, and he should have been moved.
But if people are going to say that the team needed to be better to keep Bosh. How could they have made the team better. What were the options, what were the alternatives.
If there were none, then its irrelevant that the teams wasn’t good enough, because it wasn’t capable of being good enough. And if thats the case, the very desire/need by fans and management to keep Bosh (and therefore the moves), was actually the problem in and of its self.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The issue of whether it could have been better is really hard to debate because you are talking about hypotheticals and that is hard to do. Who might have signed here or would never sign here is difficult to gauge until someone actually comes out says one or the other. What we do know is the team fell well short of the mark when it came to surrounding Bosh with the talent needed to keep him, if that was ever even possible. That is my reasoning behind why they should have traded him last year. The chances of him resigning were small versus the much greater chance that he would leave (say something like 80-20 he left). If that is the case and you are unhappy with the packages you are being offered then you keep him and the cap space open going forward.
The one move more than any other that was truly puzzling from a keeping him standpoint was the drafting of DD. Toronto had a massive hole at the 2/3 and went and drafted a project instead of drafting a player who may or may not have had an immediate impact on the team. You can argue until you are blue in the face about whether or not Terrance Williams or anyone else in that position would have done enough to keep Bosh but you cannot argue that DD was no where close to being ready considering everyone going into the draft knew he was a project. Which begs the questions about BC’s decision making. How do you say you are doing everything possible to keep someone when you are drafting for t he future instead of for today? DD could end being the best player in that draft class one day (which I think is unlikely) but that wasn’t going to make Bosh say “I am staying”.
"...whether it could have been better is really hard to debate because you are talking about hypotheticals and that is hard to do."
and that more than anything is my point, and why when people claim that management (BC) didn’t do a good enough job putting talent around their star player (in this case Bosh) I don’t buy it.
As much as the talent may not have been good enough, its just as believable that this was the best talent that could have been placed around Bosh.
Which I find tough to fault BC for.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
No, no, no, no,
The failure to put talent arround Chris Bosh is not a hypothetical, it is factual history. It is exactly what transpired! It is exactly why we find ourselves where we are today as Raptors fans.
To say, well we don’t know if it could have been better is ridiculous, when it couldn’t have been much worse.
You still haven't
listed a single player BC could have obtained to keep Bosh.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he is trying to say that you cannot fault BC if what we have is all we could get because there isn’t any interest from the players who didn’t come here. That is extremely difficult to debate because we don’t know who would and would not come here other than we know that Lebron and Wade won’t come here (and we don’t even know that for sure).
Without the Hedo deal
I believe you don’t have Johnson or Weems.
In the long run, this may work out ok. After of course, Hedo get’s traded.
+zing!
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 8, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Klieza
isn’t a bad signing, but he paid a lot for a guy that flunked out of the NBA. I always like Klieza’s game (big, tough, hard nosed type) but for a rebuilding team, like someone said above, there migth have been better ways to spend that money. But the sidning isn’t a bad one it’s how much he’s paying for these guys that baffles me.
He's also young
So, he fits the rebuild. I think he’s 25/26, and those very qualities (hard nosed and gritty) are consistent with the drafts and signings thus far. Not quite sure about how he measures up defensively.
One thing people seem to be forgetting is that this is now a super starless team. So the better approach is to build a unit 1 through 10 that doesn’t see much drop-off. This is basically what Houston did last year and they are lauded. As a 3, Klieza is a solid signing to add to the wing rotation. And who knows what feelers were put out to the likes of Brewer and Outlaw and what kind of response the team got.
Also, restricted FAs are always going to require that you pay a premium. If Denver matches, no need to complain, but if they don’t it’s a good piece to have at the mid-level.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
uhm, last time I checked Houston missed the playoffs too. They also are built around a superstar center who just happens to be injured all the time. So if Toronto gets a superstar center who is always hurt then, sure doing this make sense, However, seeing as we should be rebuilding from scratch, these signings are a little questionable especially in light that the east could actually be weaker next year as Cleveland could join NY, NJ and the other bottom feeders if Bron Bron goes to Miami. That could bring up my biggest fear which is making the playoffs next year and losing our first round pick (probably about 15 or 16) to Miami so they can go play with our franchise, errr I mean their PF Chris Bosh.
BC's job just got harder
Bosh was probably a huge selling point for attracting players… that’s gone as well now…
Playing time
If there is a chance to play and start – there will be interest
by Canuck Exile on Jul 8, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Bosh
Let’s put this in perspective… Doug Smith’s analogy from his blog this morning really hit home for me.
You get your first job out of University/Collage/High School. Let’s say for arguments sake it’s a software company – ACME systems.. You have to leave your family and friends and move to a new country to take it, but at first you’re just happy to be an adult, in the working world, bringing home a pay check.
You work your hardest every day to develop yourself and build the organization. For the next seven years, you do almost ALL the work, while the Executives at the company perpetually miss-manage the company, to the point where success is just not possible. You don’t like your teammates because they are under achievers and over paid.
Then Microsoft gives you a Godfather offer to come and work for a successful organization with a proven team that fits your skill-set. You will truly be needed, and together you can all be successful. The CEO (Pat Reilly) is basically Bill Gates and your team has one of the brightest minds in the software world (Wade) and you both get along. Oh and THE JOB IS IN FREAKING SOUTH BEACH, relatively close to your friends and family.
So do you stay with the organizatoin that is missmanaged, continue to do all the work and work with inept teammates for little recognition, or do you take your dream job. Now before you answer, put yourself in that position. Be truly honest with yourself, do you take the job or not? Didn’t thinkso. So why would we expect more from CB4?
Interested to hear arguments from those that would stay with ACME systems, because you would have to be brain dead to stay with that type of organizatoin.
Microsoft.......
Microsoft = Wade and ……….. tumbleweed?
by Canuck Exile on Jul 8, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Um.....
It would be like Microsoft laying off all of their software developers, leaving the janitor (Chalmers) and the used to be/kind of still is hot but definitely crazy HR chick (Beasley) so that you and the other guy could get to work on the next Windows OS with guys the company has hired at a community college job fair. There still might be a chance Steve Jobs (LeBron) joins you but deep down you should know the turtle neck is his own man, who welcomes the challenge of beating you consistently to cement his position as the best in the industry.
Oh yeah, and the result of your, the hotshot, and the community collegians efforts…Vista
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Although it is a nice analogy as far as it goes but I think it is a stretch to label Miami Microsoft. They have exactly one championship since their inception and though they have made the playoffs a lot. they have been pretty much a one and done team since Shaq left. Because they were a trendy choice for a lot of players (thanks to Florida’s tax system) I would think the analogy would work better if you called them Apple.
Man your splitting hairs here… Fine sub in Apple for Microsoft. Doesn’t change a thing.
Stay and play with and for a bunch of incompetants, do all the work and continue to be unsuccessful. Or go work for an organization with a visionary CEO (Reily) one of the best individuals in the Business (Wade) and a wack of cap space (to be filled by said visionary CEO). No brainer for me… And that’s why I hold no grudges against CB4.
Cleveland
If Bosh wanted to win he would have joined James
Disagree
Bosh + James in Cleveland = potential continued mediocrity.
If they really wanted to win, they’d have gone to either Chicago or NJ. But, 3 in South Beach ain’t bad either (depth be damned).
by RaptorsAddict on Jul 8, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHA
potential continued mediocrity
you are talking about LBJ’s 61 win team + BOSH
please posters – lets stop engaging in ludicrous statements
Playoffs
Who cares about 61 win team? He doesn’t put them over the top, in my opinion. As for the ludicrous statements insult, well I won’t feed the trolls.
by RaptorsAddict on Jul 8, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
mediocrity
fair point – it might not put them over the top but mediocrity is what the Memphis Grizzlies or Indiana Pacers are. I just wish people would stop making such grandios statements.
James is joining tonight.
The whole Bosh to Cleveland thing was designed to give Lebron an excuse to leave Cleveland.
I want to play with Bosh, Bosh doesn’t want to live in Cleveland (who does?), therefore I must go to Miami. It’s the same deal that Wade played on Chicago, though I imagine Wade would have signed in Chicago before Lebron in Cleveland.
I never honestly believed that Lebron didn’t want to play with Bosh and vice-versa, or that Lebron would twiddle his thumbs enough to let Bosh slip out of his fingers to D-Wade alone. Makes sense that he is late to the party, but ultimately joining Bosh + Wade.
Article on the 3 divas
For a fresh perspective on the free agents read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100708
Simmons is a genius. It seems to me he’s implying tampering…without actually saying it. Awesome read anyway.
He is.
Great article, and as for the tampering, well I"m not sure if it’s tampering if it’s done by the players, I believe that’s a transgression reserved for management.
by RaptorsAddict on Jul 8, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Great
Article. Very interesting. If I’m Lebron I go to Chicago but my pick is NYK. At the end of the day its all about $$$ and NYK gives him his best earning potential.
by WinnipegRaptorFan on Jul 8, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Good For Us
Makes Mia S+T more likely, and NY has a need for a PG which we have.
by WinnipegRaptorFan on Jul 8, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But isn't Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, and D. Rose a better choice?
A more complete team, much better and consistent fanbase, more opportunities to cement your legacy. Seriously, is Chris Bosh THAT important to these other two? Who would have believed it.
Can you Dominate!
I think that if LBJ joined the Bulls they would have to imediate contenders….no?
He would be surrondered by young & experienced players that he did not have in Cleveland.
Hey I would say he would even be better off with the Knicks, they would just need a solid pg.
this signing
first off. i’m not excited about giving Kleiza mid level.
but if you look at his stats – he produces nearly the exact same numbers as Outlaw. Granted Outlaw is a better defender but if Outlaw is in MLE range – so is Kleiza.
The thing to remeber is that Nets, Sac, Chi, NYC, Minnesota, LAC all have cap room, and then there are even more with MLE. So if you are Ronnie Brewer and Outlaw, why would you come to Toronto?
Granted part of the reason Toronto is unappealing is the roster situation that BC has left us with but I see it as very likely that Kleiza was the best and only option to come to Toronto.
It’s a bummer – but upon review its really the only option left.
The other option...
… and better one in my opinion is to NOT use the MLE and NOT commit any more salary to a bench player for a team of bench players and start the rebuild in earnest.
yes but
we need players 2. I’m not thrilled abt paying 20mil for LK but we need players and i was looking at stats and drebans is right, Outlaw for eg and LK have similar numbers. Outlaw for eg might be a more popular pick bec of his athleticism etc but at the end of the day LK put up similar numbers so it may have been a case for BC & staff of sign who we can instead of who we want.
What would you do, exactly
Throw up your hands and say F—k it, let’s tank the season? The guy is young, he was playing behind Carmelo Anthony for most of his career in Denver. Who knows what he can bring to the table, given a larger role? You know, you kind of have to rebuild by acquiring talent.
Accumulating a vast amount of first round picks is nice, (I really don’t see how 2nd rounders are that big of a deal, given how few of them actually make it) but there’s little guarantee of a satisfactory payoff.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
What would I do? I layed it out pretty clearly. I would place a moritorium on spending and signing new players – especially over paying for players that COULDN’T EVEN GET AN NBA CONTRACT LAST YEAR!! Then begin the rebuilding process, and yes that means breaking it down and starting over. And yes, that will mean loosing for a season or two, but we are going TO LOSE ANYWAYS WITH THIS TEAM. So why not do it on the cheap while you accumulate picks???
He could’ve gotten a contract, but some team in Europe paid him 5m+ which noone here would do. Until now!
A season or two???
So, basically, you would do nothing, get two draft picks in the 8 to 12 range, and break it down, how, exactly? So, next year, when Banks and Evans come off the books you will land who, having done nothing the year before? I guess you would use the extra money to re-up Weems.
If we use the current darlings of the league OKC, or even Portland..you realize a rebuild to something beyond the first round takes 5 years and in Portland’s case 10? And the Raptors aren’t operating in isolation, there are other teams whose fortunes could very well impact their own. If Boston hadn’t landed the Big 3, if Atlanta didn’t finally get it after so many years of really bad basketball…actually consider Atlanta when thinking about your “plan.”
A season or two??? I can’t believe you think it will turn around so quickly, which means either you anticipate miracles or agree that what’s here is enough of a foundation to allow the immediate ascension.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I am at a loss… So your idea is to just continue down this path, continue to be capped out, continue to win 30 to 40 games a year, just like the Isaiah Thomas Knicks. Much better idea.
Ummm..No
I believe your plan..
I would place a moritorium on spending and signing new playerswould result in the 30 wins you speak of, which translates to picks in the 8 or 9 range, which, you believe will translate to an ultra competitive team in ONE OR TWO YEARS???
We all admit that this is a rebuild but I think most of what I’ve been saying is that if you’re subscribing to a rebuild expect a 5 year window not something in the ONE OR TWO YEAR range. If you truly believe that it will take ONE OR TWO YEARS with the addition of two picks outside the top 5 of the draft, it means you think the pieces in place are a good foundation. In that case WHY ALL THE COMPLAINING?
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Solid point. I think believing that this team can turn it around in a year or two is optimistic at best. That is the reason all these signings bother me, BC is out to save his job so he is doing everything he can to make the Raptors into a playoff contender, i.e. a team that competes for a playoff spot which I think is a waste of time. Basketball is unique in sports in that seeding actually means something most of the time and it is unusual for lower seeded teams (which is the current B.C.S for the Raptors) to knock off a higher seed. Even when it happens, they usually get their ass handed to them in the next round. If our focus is to get lucky and make the second round then I think our focus is out of focus.
Christ sakes, OK, maybe not one or two years… I think you are being purposfully obtuse in your interpretation. My overall point is this is a TARE DOWN… not a re-load. So don’t sign players for the MLE that aren’t goin to contribute to the process… The point is to get BELOW the cap, attract players once you’ve settled on a truly talented core – which by the way I’m not sold this team has yet.
You still miss the point
attract players once you’ve settled on a truly talented core
This has been the problem since the inception of the franchise. A lot of the complaining you see going on now is the idea that the team has had to overpay for talent.
I suppose the ultimate question to be answered, regardless of what side you are on with respect to B.C. is
“Will elite level-in their prime-players seriously consider Toronto as a landing spot, if the team were legitimately competitive?”
I’m assuming you’re a proponent of the star system approach, which, given what’s happened this year in particular, is the wrong way to go for the Toronto Raptors.
I realize all of the arguing going on now is pointless until that question is answered.
But I think the answer is NO, so…
I think the Detroit Pistons conference finalist contenders of a few years ago is the best model for this franchise to adopt, meaning, no stars, no high draft pick saviours, just build a TEAM around a brand of basketball that is smart, defensive, low turnover, and unpleasant to play against.
Hence why I like these signings and picks thus far. If you allow yourself to not think about the money (which we tend to do in the offseason because there are no games being played) the acquisitions thus far actually fit a pattern. The pieces might ultimately change or be upgraded, but if you pay close attention to recent activities, the model is becoming clearer. Even PJ’s signing as an assistant coach fits the idea of a team adding sand paper to its mix.
Maybe Bosh’s abrupt exit was the final nail in the coffin of Raptors we used to know.
One could argue that one of Colangelo’s earliest signings when he came onboard, Garbajosa, was the character prototype he was aiming for, and now he can just get back to what might have been the original plan.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
And to clarify the question
Would elite level-in their prime-AMERICAN BORN players seriously consider Toronto as a landing spot, if the team were legitimately competitive?"
Again, the answer is no, and not because I possess some inferiority complex.
I suspect agents for the truly elite players look beyond the basketball contracts to figure out how best to maximize and extend their client’s earning potential — so that they themselves can continue to benefit, even after the playing days are done. As of right now, Toronto isn’t one of those markets where it’s possible, regardless of how good the team is.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
That is the question isn’t it and it has already been answered in another sport. Baseball. The Blue Jays had a hard time drawing talent until they became a really good team then other people wanted to play there. Ask yourself this question. how many FA’s are going out of their way to sign in NY or LA Clippers? So far NY has Amare and that is it. The Clips got B Davis but that was because of Brand who bolted the first chance he got. Players in the NBA are influenced by winning and how a team treats its stars. That is probably why Wade decided against Chicago (one of the reasons anyway) as I don’t think he ever intended to go there, he was using them to create drama for his documentary.
Correction
Most of the major championship contributing Blue Jay acquisitions were by trade. Alomar, Carter, White, Cone. The major free agent signings (Molitor and Morris) were actually Minnesota born (close to the Canadian border, comparable winters) and Stewart and Winfield were past their prime. Their pitchers were developed by the organization. On a 23 man roster, there are just different dynamics, baseball with its small town multi-year incubation minor league system, and it’s significant proportion of foreign nationals, also fosters a different culture, so I can’t agree with you there.
Remember, the question concerns that time when the team becomes a serious competitor by way of its internal development, so the Clippers don’t factor into the equation either way (for reasons beyond the on the court issues)
I still say, no, so we have to prepare for a team that plays its own version of Detroit basketball
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
but the Jays
were able to buy their team and not have to worry about any salary cap.
The Raps do.
And since NBA teams are on a relatively lvl playing field (due to cap restrictions), its the other monetary factors that come into play. Namely the endorsement deal considerations, and since the Raps (even when they were good and competitive) don’t get any US national coverage, and therefory the players will miss out on those big time endorsement deals, they are at a disadvantage. While players may not initially concern themselves with this, their agents sure do. (Coincidentially enough, this was one of the very reasons, 2 years ago, I felt the Raps had no chance in keeping Bosh)
Once the Raps can become seriously competitive for a period of time, and then get national coverage regularily, that may change. But, that is still a few star picks and some hard work from now.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Kleiza
I’d be all for signing Kleiza to a 3 year – $9 million deal, but 4 year – $20 million is overpaying. You don’t build a winner by overpaying bench players. I doubt Denver matches because they’re in the luxury tax and would therefore have to pay $10 million per year, as opposed to $5 million, but I hope that they do.
If I recall, Kleiza is a streaky spot up shooter, who is an ok rebounder and mediocre-to-poor defender. He is physical and isn’t afraid to take it to the hoop, but he’s also an average athlete, so he’s not all that successful at doing it. Could he improve? Yes, but how much?
Personally, I’d prefer that they throw the full mid-level exception at Childress. He can’t shoot all that well, but I love the rest of his game. Who knows, maybe BC tried and Childress is holding out for a better team to offer.
If we don’t get anything for Bosh, we’d have approximately $4 million under the cap. We’d still have to fill out the roster, so chances are we’d hit the cap regardless of who we signed. In that sense, I’m ok with the signing, but too many years and too much money for a guy that has limited talent, in my opinion.
Childress
For the mid-level exception, I think Childress is still the best play right now. Who knows whether Colangelo tried and was rebuffed? I’d love to get an answer to that question… I mean, if he played in Greece for a couple of years, I really can’t see why he’d have an issue playing in Canada?!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 8, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Everyone's getting paid
For all of you who thought we over paid for Klieza? The Nets just offered 5 years-$35 million to Outlaw (ESPN).
People need to realize that ALL players (including the role players) know that this will be their last chance to get big money. After this, the new CBA will mean smaller, less lucrative deals. This is why players like Drew Gooden and Outlaw are getting over paid. Get used to it.
Outlaw’s agent (Bill Duffy) is notorious for getting obscene contracts for his clients. It probably came with an “if you do me this favour, I’ll deliver X player…” and the Russian guy fell for it.
Hard to feel bad about the Kleiza offer or even the Amir Johnson signing after you see Outlaw and Drew Gooden getting the type of money they received in free agency.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 8, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
But just because other GM’s are being stupid, doesn’t mean that we have to as well. Is Linus Kleiza going to make us a signficantly better team? I’m thinking no. So why sign him to this contract? The fact that a new, more restrictive CBA is expected to be implemented next year should be a further deterrent, not an incentive to make BC spend now.
I’d be fine with just filling out the roster with minimum contract guys. We are going to be bad anyway, so there’s no need to lock ourselves into more bad long-term contracts. That will just hurt us down the road when some of our younger talent has matured and is ready to win.
Absolutely
Otherwise you end up in Leafs-hell, aka perpetual terribleness. All the more reason to save a few shots for next year.
by RaptorsAddict on Jul 8, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Top-four lottery pick for the Raptors following this season is pretty much guaranteed. This team is going to be incredibly bad. It’s a team of role players minus anyone that can be considered close to an All-Star or superstar player.
And if you respond that Bargnani or Turkoglu are going to contend for an All-Star spot, you should be heavily medicated.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 8, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
You can't have it both ways
If Kleiza makes enough of a difference to get us out of a good lottery pick, then he is an absolute steal. If not (the likely scenerio), then we got a reasonably priced role player (that is a tradeable asset). The only downside is if you are a MLSE stockholder and profit has been cut…like I care.
if Kleiza is
good enough to get us out of a good lottery pick, didn’t he just give us the screw job?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You have got to be kidding me
If we get a 25 year old difference maker for $20M over 4 years, you would be unhappy.
Besides, why are we even talking about this. He is a quality role player and people are worried about our lottery status…you must think he is really good.
and here I thought
people wanted to get a young stud? We need the draft to do that no?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 8, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is...
I don’t believe Kleiza is a difference maker and I don’t believe this is a reasonably priced contract. I doubt that he will help us much in the short term and I fear that his contract will hurt us in the long term. Is it a movable deal? Yeah, probably, but you’re not going to get value back for it. You’re going to get someone else’s crap, or have to sweeten your side by including something of value (a good player or picks).
I don’t blow this kind of money on a guy that would be a fringe rotation guy on a good team, and that’s all I see him being.
another thing
Outlaw, Brewer, Childress etc may all have been contacted by BC and for all we know & they all prob weren’t interested. Maybe we simply signed who was available bec the other choices didn’t want to come here.
As for building cheap as MAS 11 said, good idea in theory but realistically BC has to put out a respectable product out there; we don’t need to surround our rookies with Will Solomon, Slokar and M. Baston (spelling) types. That’s what you get for cheap and unless BC wants to get fired he has to stay away from filing an now weak roster with even weaker talent.
No, COLANGELO has to put out a “respectable” (if you can even consider this monstrosity of a roster respectable) product out there to save his reputation in light of his contract situation.
What is best for the raptors franchise is to rebuild through the draft and by GAINING cap space ala the recent examples of Chicago, OKC, Portland etc.
So how does Kleiza change that
Do you really think Kleiza is going to make such a difference to affect our draft position. If we are rebuilding ala Portland, Chicago or OKC, we are years away from the promised land and by then, Kleiza’s contract will be coming to an end.
Kleiza is good for about 0.7 wins, according to Dave Berri’s Wages of Wins. So yes, Kleiza could essentially be the “difference” between 18 and 19 wins next season (if you round up). That kind of progress is priceless for a rebuilding franchise.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 8, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
So you get a few MORE wins, lessend you chances in the lotter while taking away cap space. Priceless…
So lets go out and fill our roster spots with Derick Martin and Oliver Miller
Cause we sure don’t want to risk another win or two. Nice culture to create for the kids.
I’m not saying I’m excited about the signing, I just don’t get the angst.
I agree with both points. Yes, he’s not going to make much of a difference in the win column. But at $20 million, his deal seems reasonable. I’d rather have him than Outlaw at $35 million.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 8, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
also...
The money the Nets are giving Outlaw is more than Amir Johnson’s deal. Amir has a better FG%, is more efficient, and has more of an upside. Considering the market, Amir’s deal was a steal as well.
maybe not a steal
but a decent contract. You pay a player for what he will do, not what he has done.
I would take Kleiza’s or Amir’s deal over Outlaws
Agreed...kind of
I like Amir’s deal, I think he hustles for the ball and leaves everything out on the court…Kleiza’s is unexpected and I think BC is just trying to get something done so it doesnt look like hes just sitting around with his thumbs up his arse…
Outlaw’s deal seems ridiculous…but the Nets literally have no one else to chase so they are going to drastically overpay for anyone who is left…
who know..
maybe BC tried for bothe outlaw and brewer but maybe they were asking for more money…who knows i doubt it but maybe thats possibly, and this team aint done changing yet maybe some how they can get any one of those 2 some how down the road. i like klieza hes a pretty good player, just wish they had gotten outlaw cause ive always liked his game but maybe theres still a chance..and as for the lebron thing tonight..if he goes to the heat and this was planned all along imma puke what a joke..mite as well give them the champioship right now.
Goodbye Bosh
Just wanna say goodbye and good luck to bosh. Wish him all the best. But I have stat for HQ …. If I’m correct every marquee player that has left the Raptors via free agency, has never won anything wherever they have gone. … pls If i’m wrong correct me… but nonetheless, NBA Stars are nothing liek they used to be…. spoiled and rich with not much pride. Why try to win where I am i’lljust jump on a bandwagon to winning be just like a role player…
by raptor fan 4 life on Jul 8, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions
Childress?
Childress would be nice but with Outlaw signing for more than the MLE and many teams on the outside looking in with cash in hand, I fully expect Childress to get more than the MLE… which puts the Raps out of the running from the start… unless we did a sign and trade… which might still be possible.
I don’t think Childress ever said no to Toronto… I think he said I have better offers and Toronto couldn’t do anything about it.
How did Childress become worth more than the MLE? By honing his skills against superior competition?
That sound is my head hitting wall.
Desperation
Don’t think the Knicks will be desperate to get someone else? They still have a lot of cash to spend…
I don’t think he’s worth more than the MLE… I just think he’ll get more because, as a poster previously stated… everyone is getting PAID!
by lessthanzero on Jul 8, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
A few thoughts
Even if Miami ends up with all three of these so called superstars, it is far from a sure thing that they will even win there division, let alone, the NBA championship. Remember that Cleaveland were supposed to be in the finals this year and how well did that work?
The team that Toronto ends up with this year will be a challenge for the coaching staff and much of their sucess, if any, will be based on the system that is put in place to use their talents and the coach’s ability to teach and develop the young players. I think the right coach could do some great things with Derozen, Weems, Johnson, Jack and Bargs, especially if they can motivate them to play defence. Good coaching could pull it off – not a divisional title or anything like that next year but a real good competitive team.
The genius of Phil Jackson and his coaching success has been his ability to define roles and have the players buy in and work exceptionally hard in those roles. Can Jay and Carlisimo do that? I hope so.
What's Next
Normally on a slow day, I might understand reviewing BC’s "legend" in Toronto. But as we know, it’s not – so I’m not sure why the review. That being said, I’d like add my views.
Jason Kapono – came in to shoot 3’s. Had less 3-point attempts than previous years. Was paid too much, but then again, I think most NBA players who make more than 3 or 4 million, are paid too much.
Jermaine O’Neal – brought in to please Bosh. Definitely a BC mistake – adjusting the team so the Franchise player is happy. Glad this part is over.
Marcus Banks – I really think if Jack was our main point guard, along with Hedo as another facilitator, that Banks could’ve been a useful piece. He’s now a useful expiring contract.
Hedo Turkoglu – see above. The fact is, Magic fans probably think we handled this whole affair the wrong way. Maybe we did. Let’s move on.
Maceo Baston (who?), PJ Tucker (who?), and Nathan Jawai (hearty kind of guy) – all these guys are cannon fodder. And on a contending team, they’d be listed as DNP ballast.
As for who’s left:
Jack – great pick-up for the price.
Bargs – saddled with 1st overall pick in a mediocre draft, that had no "can’t miss" Franchise player. I still think we shuffled him around so much, that it’s taken this long to figure him out. Let’s let this season define where he’s going. As far as I’m concerned, his numbers were cheap at 6.5 million last year.
Jose Calderon – yeah, we paid too much (ala Kapono). But for the revision theorists, TO would’ve gone nuts had we lost Jose.
Amir Johnson – sometimes in this wacky world of basketball, you have to take a chance. BC did, and now we have to hope BC was a visionary on this call.
Sonny, Demar, Davis, and Alabi are to me, a decent "reboot", sans Bosh.
In the end, I’m kinda glad we’re moving forward the way we are. I really hated the “unknown” that has been hanging over our heads for quite some time. Until all the smoke clears, it’s even harder to make judgments, or use our hindsight to draw conclusions. Hopefully, we can be positive about the next step.
.
a kind review
but i agree with a lot of this.
BTW – just looking back on Turks 2007-2008 stats – he was putting up… Joe Johnson numbers…
just an interesting observation. I still think his contract is garbage but maybe this shows how bad Joe Johnson’s contract is (i.e. worse thank Hedo)
That is a good point about HST. It’s a good thing we signed him in 2007-2008. Oh wait, we didn’t, we signed him after he had a mediocre campain and hit 30, meaning he wasn’t going to suddenly improve. Plus, just for kicks, BC then decided to address the backup PG position while completely ignoring the SG spot so that Jack, Calderon and HST had to play together on the court which completely defeated the purpose of bringing HST in, a guy who could handle the offense when Calderon wasn’t on the floor.
Nice summary
Fully agree. Time to move forward.
Outaw and Amir
On the topic of Outlaw’s 5yr/$35M deal, I guess that means the Nets aren’t getting Lebron? (why else would they pay $7M/year for a small forward?)
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5363686
Amir’s deal seems about $1M/year over what other teams might have offered — but still in the range of market value.
I’m hoping this Kleiza deal is a sign that there is a trade lined up for Hedo.
Oh boy
Colangelo STILL cannot accept the fact that his philosophy fails in the NBA today, and because of that he is continuously making this team worse. Again, with an ego as huge as BC’s, he really needed to be fired. I knew he would start doing stupid things like overpaying Amir Johnson or signing players that can’t play defense/really like to shoot 3’s. I expect more bad signings/trades by Colangelo in the next while, in order to preserve his self-image as much as possible.
Btw, even if Hedo is traded, the Kleiza signing still doesn’t make any sense as it doesn’t fit a team need.
That is where you are wrong. This team was in desperate need of another over paid non-American player. You can never have enough of those.
If there is ever a market for over paid non-American players...
BC will have out smarted us all.
Man what is up with all these euros
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 8, 2010 3:24 PM EDT reply actions
Here's what's up...
Colangelo is sticking to his “I’m going to bring Euro-Ball to the NBA!” agenda come hell or high water. Can someone from the Euro league give this jackass a job already for Christ sakes. He can manage all the Euro talent he wants for CSKA Moskow or Treviso or Roma… why does he have to do it here in Toronto and ruin our franchise!
I think you guys are delusional
did you guys really expect this roster or these players to do any better last year than they did?? the team was made up mostly of players who had never played together before at all..we had a rookie coach and a rookie shooting guard..we had a pg coming of a injury and exhausted Hedo Turkoglu..Jay triano never the entire year decided on a rotation..For bench players to be effective they have to have a solid rotation..just watch any championship caliber team they all have solid tight rotations.Jay also decided for the get go that Hedo was going to be a spot up shooter and that it would be a bad idea to use the pick and roll with him and bosh..go back and watch Hedo on the magic..every time he touched the ball Dwight would set a pick..Dwight would then roll and is he was not open Hedo would hit someone in the corner for a three..we had great three point shooters last year but we still only ran the pick and roll on occasion..Jay did not understand his players,he played to there weaknesses and not there strengths.Everyone thinks bosh was some once in a life time talent but he has proven absolutely nothing in the post season..he is a slightly better Zach Randolph..I stopped following this blog because of all the negative comments on all things that was not Chris Bosh.
So, like...
…was this your attempt at a positive post on all things that are not Chris Bosh?
Great article by Jeff Blair of the Globe... must read for Raps fans...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/colangelo-out-of-control/article1632427/
Most salient quote:
“Colangelo could not afford to have the ultimate decision in this process taken out of his hands. But he let it happen – and compounded it prior to the 2009-10 season by signing Hedo Turkoglu for $53-million (U.S.) over five years, and Jarrett Jack for $20-million for four years. At the end of the day, the GM was left with the same product: Bosh, a bunch of European players and a backcourt that was all-too irrelevant at crucial times. It was an unmotivated, poorly-constructed, fundamentally flawed team, whose happy-go-lucky demeanour on the night it was eliminated from the playoffs left many feeling that if they were Chris Bosh, they’d get out of here, too. (There was singing in the locker room, for Pete’s sake.)”
Damning stuff man… and absolutely impossible to dispute.
For fun, let's talk conspiracies
At the LeBron show tonight, what if he announces that he’s going to New York? As some of you are aware, the stock price in MSG shot up the other day, based on the possibility of LeBron joining the Knicks. If it is later found that LeBron, or any in his inner circle owns MSG stock AND leaked the news to influence the stock price, is that illegal in any way? This would be interesting.
Secondly, if it is found that there was indeed tampering, and that Wade acted as spy for Riley (you have to admit totally gutting your roster the way he did, he had to have some concrete assurances) as some speculate in the recent Bill Simmons article, could Stern void the transactions?
To answer your first question, I think it would be considered insider trading as people are not suppose to create their own profit when buying stocks and I believe it would be against league rules for Lebron to own stock (not in blind trust) in his own team, let alone a league rival.
The second question is much murkier. The league would have to have empirical proof in order to act (I believe some leaked the Joe Smith agreement to the league when Minny got caught) and I am not sure that there would be any way to prove that unless the Heat were stupid and kept recordings of meetings with senior execs and Dwayne Wade outlining a plan of action. Unfortunately, they will claim that it was between Bosh and Wade (and possibly Lebron) and player to player tampering may not be approved of but it is not against league rules or the CBA.
Ask for all of the documentary footage
Wade and Bosh apparently had film crews following them throughout the process, could the league not ask for that footage before signing off on the deals. Or, more interestingly, could the deals be revoked?
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a lawyer....
but that sounds like insider trading, or something along those lines. I could be wrong, but I also believe that the CBA has something in it against owning stock in the company that owns your team, or in this case the building.
Would Stern void the transactions? Not a chance. For one, it would be difficult to prove Wade was spying, and there’s nothing in the CBA against Free Agents colluding. In addition think of the ratings for a Lakers vs. Heat matchup on Christmas day (if Lebron goes to Miami)! There’s no way Stern turns that down. Plus I think he uses this as Ammo against the players union next year.
Technically
Having not signed with the Knicks, yet, wouldn’t it be okay to own MSG stock and then sell it before signing the contract?
by HQ Interloper on Jul 8, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
It would depend
If his camp leaked information about him joining the Knicks, that would definitely be insider trading. If it was based on outside speculation, I think that would be ok.
Buying or selling stocks based on inside information is insider trading.
Since there are so many Toronto Raptors fans that love to bash “Euros” (a racist term by the way)………let me set you straight here.
PG Jose Calderon
SG Marco Belinelli
SF Hedo Turkoglu
PF Linas Kleiza
C Andrea Bargnani
………….I see Raps fans throwing this out and touting it as a way to bash “Euros”…….well me just clarify that lineup would not even win the Euroleague championship. Not good enough.
So some of you Raps fans need to get some knowledge about he Euroleague and stop being so incredibly NBA only centric and ignorant in your comments.
i think derozan would start before beli and amir is definitely starting at pf
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 8, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
It's official
Miami is now re-named the HATE instead of the Heat.
David Stern must be getting a few phone calls from pissed off owners (Nets, Knicks, and Bulls to name a few).
I have a feeling the Larry Bird clause will be updated with the next CBA to give teams a limit of 1 “franchise” player (like the NFL).
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