How Does Barbosa Help?
With the dust settling on the draft, Summer League and free-agency for the time being, the HQ takes a moment to look at the player Toronto acquired in the Hedo dump; Leandro Barbosa.
Last night, I realized that with all the madness in Raptor-land of late, there were still a few things that hadn't really been discussed.
For one, no "goodbye Hedo" post on the site.
Second, no breakdown of the player the Raptors obtained FOR the Ottoman.
The Hedo post is forthcoming, and since I'm still waiting on the official "good to post" word from the Raptors PR folks on my interview with Eric Hughes, I thought this morning we'd look at option number two.
First though, let's look at the current state of the Dinos' roster:
PG: Jarrett Jack, Jose Calderon, Marcus Banks
SG: DeMar DeRozan, Sonny Weems, Marco Bellineli
SF: Linas Kleiza (presumably)
PF: Amir Johnson, Ed Davis, Reggie Evans, Joey Dorsey
C: Andrea Bargnani, Solomon Alabi, Dwayne Jones
It's a bit of a strange mix right now, with lots of options at the 1, 2 and 4, and very little at the 3 or 5.
Add in Barbosa, a 1/2, and it gets even more crowded.
Obviously Bryan Colangelo isn't done making up fake trades, and guys like Jones, Evans and Banks could easily be gone by October, but at present, this looks like a 30 win team to me.
Why?
Well there isn't a ton of experience on this team, the defence is still suspect at best, there is little quality depth at a few key spots, and without Bosh, the offence could sputter in various areas now. (Especially regarding free-throw attempts.)
Looking at the latest post on Wages of Wins confirms this.
Considering that Toronto's club won 40 games last year, and is losing players responsible for about 13 wins while gaining back about only about 3 (Barbosa's WP average over his career), this doesn't look good.
Well...I guess "doesn't look good" depends on your perspective.
If you're hoping this team heads to the top of the lottery next year for some real help, than 30 games might even be too high for you.
In any event, the point of this post isn't really to debate Toronto's win total and level of success for next year, that will be done later in the off-season when all the pieces of the 2010-11 squad appear to be in place. Moreso it's to see just what type of fit Leandro Barbosa could be for this team and if he'll provide any upside, aside of course from helping get rid of Colangelo's egregious Hedo signing.
So let's start by position.
Obviously, this on paper doesn't appear to be a great fit thanks to the logjam we've already discussed.
That being said, if Toronto can play small ball at times with Weems or DeRozan at the 3, then Barbosa could be a very interesting addition. A Jack-Barbosa-Weems or even Barbosa-DeRozan-Weems back-court becomes a very athletic, speedy and difficult match-up for many teams, and one that Triano could quite effectively use to inject some life into a lackluster start, or to switch up the tempo.
As well, if both Jose Calderon and Marcus Banks are moved, a distinct possibility, then that would free up some much-needed room for Barbosa as well.
Regardless of line-ups and roster space however, let's look at the ways in which Leandro is most effective, and for that, we turn to Synergy Sports' Technology.
Looking at his offensive breakdown last year, the bulk of Barbosa's offence came from spot-up scoring, transition baskets and cuts to the hoop. Aside from the spot-up part, these are all elements this Raptors' team could use more of on offense.
He rarely posted up, only ran 10% of his total offense off isolation plays, and did a good chunk of his scoring, whether the spot-up variety or cutting to the basket via hand-offs, off of screens. Essentially then, we're talking about a player who helps facilitate the flow of the offense, but is rarely an initiator except for off the break.
My worry then is that his game was too similar to that of Jarrett Jack or DeMar DeRozan, who he'll probably be sharing the back-court with a good chunk of the time.
However comparing the Synergy data, I'm not as concerned.
Jack had similar spot-up statistics, but rarely came off of screens for his scoring (this includes rarely rolling and cutting to the hoop.) He also was not nearly the transition scorer last year that Barbosa was, and Jack was a much better force on isolations (24% of his offence) and initiating plays (26% of the time was the pick-and-roll ball handler.)
So maybe the fit isn't perfect, but Jack at the 1 with Barbosa at the 2 should be ok offensively.
Compared to DeMar, we see similar statistics.
Like Barbosa, DeMar did a good chunk of his scoring damage from spot-up J's, (32% in fact), but posted up more, worked in isolation a great deal more, and actually was the pick-and-roll ball-handler a good percentage of the time more than Barbosa. (Which of course makes sense considering Barbosa played with a certain Mr. Steve Nash.)
DeRozan is also a much superior offensive rebounder than Barbosa, so a 1-2 DD and LB combo could prove effective as well.
However there's no question there are probably better fits out there, and I'd rather not see a new "triangle of death" form with all 3 playing together for extended periods.
Unfortunately on a team of mostly jump shooters and not shot-creators off the bounce, unless BC brings in someone of this ilk, Triano and co may be limited in terms of "most efficient line-up combinations."
On the defensive end, Barbosa is hardly a lock-down guy, but with his speed and length can be a nice pest in the passing lanes. He's averaged 1.4 steals per game for his career, but could see that number rise with extended minutes on this Raptors' squad, especially if he's healthy.
And perhaps that's the biggest piece of this "how does Barbosa help?" equation.
Barbosa's stats last year were fairly pedestrian (just under 10 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists per game.) He shot only 32% from long-range, and 43% from the field, so was a bit of a brick-layer as well.
However he also played only 44 games due to injury and if he can return to his 2006 to 2008 form, suddenly this could be a nice piece of the puzzle for Bryan Colangelo. During that time Barbosa averaged about 17 points, 3 rebounds and 3 assists while shooting 42% from 3-point land and nearly 47% from the field. His PER was in the 17 range during that time, he rarely missed games, and had great offensive efficiency metrics across the board. Simply put, he was the ideal sixth man to come in and inject some scoring punch and change of pace for a club.
For me, this acquisition was really about getting rid of Hedo's contract so like the Hoffa for Humphries move, getting anything back that can dribble a basketball is a plus. If Barbosa is healthy and can get back to his 2008 ways (he is only 27 so quite possible) then this could be a nice little addition for TO.
I'm not expecting mountains moved, and he doesn't really help in a couple key areas the Raptors need major assistance with (he's averaged only about 2 free throws and 2 rebounds per game on his career), but as far as trades go, this one could be a lot worse and surrounded by the right pieces, Barbosa is the type of player you see making an major impact off the pine for winning clubs.
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The Truth
This is not a playoff team if we do not make a move, the fact is we need to move Bargnani to the four which means bringing in a true center. The problem will be to consistently get good looks. Barbosa played fast break basketball when he had his most successful seasons. if we play uptempo basketball than he can definitely be a nice piece. The problem I see is we still do not have a post up option. If you look at all the great teams in the NBA from last year, Cavs-Shaq, Boston-Kg, Lakers-Gasol/Bynum, Magic-Howard, Dallas-Dirk(mid post range but still post). Yes the Suns were a top team and did have Amare who was similar to Dirk in the sense that he would post up in hte mid post range except he would face up and attack they also ran the pick n roll better than anyone else because they had Nash. But all these great teams can consistently get good looks because their post player just by posting up and getting the ball puts pressure on the opposing defense. Do we have that player on our team? Who can create a good look at any point during the game.
Barbosa is a good fit on the right team and we may be that team. However this is not a team who is going to contend, I hope that if Colangelo cannot make a major move he is willing to rebuild, I would rather watch young players develop than be stuck in mediocrity getting 8th seeds in the playoffs or 13th picks in the draft.
30 win season
I have to agree that the Raptors will be in the 30-35 win range next season. As it stands, they have a decent group of role players and one Italian project. The Charlotte trade that didn’t happen would have removed some of my concerns for the team in this upcoming season.
The glaring weakness is at the 5 and 3. So many people have mentioned that the Raptors need a centre and I gotta agree. They need a force inside that will do all the dirty work. The problem with finding a decent centre in the NBA is that you have to overpay them. I would have liked to see Samuel Dalembert on the team, but his is part of the overpaid class that I just mentioned.
I have to disagree with a bit of Franchise’s lineup breakdown at the 3 because I think Sonny would be better suited at the 3. Grant it Sonny is an undersized SF, but he can probably use his quickness against opponents. In addition, Sonny, Demar, and Amir starting fits into the future hopes of the franchise… Cross your fingers!!
I’d say that with the flexibility in our roster, there’s no real reason to panic. The players who can play each position:
PG: Jose, Jack, Banks, Barbosa, Beli
SG: Demar, Sonny, Jack, Barbosa, Beli
SF: Kleiza, Demar, Sonny
PF: Bargnani, Johnson, Davis, Evans, Dorsey
C: Bargnani, Alabi, Dorsey, Johnson (against smaller lineups)
If anything, a backup C behind Bargs is needed for maybe 12 minutes a game. Although, personally, I’d be happy with Dorsey and Alabi fighting for minutes there. I really like what Dorsey brings, especially for his price. And with a more rugged PF spot (Johnson, Davis) defensively, the inexperience at backup C can be overcome.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 22, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Minutes-wise: I put the team in tiers – with only one of Jack/Jose being here most likely…
36 MPG: Bargnani
32 MPG: Demar, Sonny, Johnson, Jose/Jack
28 MPG: Kleiza
24 MPG: Barbosa
12 MPG: Davis, Alabi/Dorsey
So: Lineup:
PG: Jose/Jack (32), Barbosa (16)
SG: Demar (20), Sonny (20), Barbosa (8)
SF: Kleiza (24), Sonny (12), Demar (12)
PF: Johnson (32), Davis (12), Kleiza (4)
C: Bargnani (36), Alabi/Dorsey (12)
by dhackett1565 on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I have this bad feeling the Raps are going to do the same thing they did last year with DeRozan to Ed Davis – aka, “throw him to the Wolves.”
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 22, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Why is that a bad feeling? The biggest concern I have with BC picking up another C and Bargs playing at the PF spot (besides my belief that AB is a C) is Davis getting too few minutes.
Would love to see him get a steady 12 minutes per game, although I would prefer against bench players rather than starting.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 22, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
No help for Davis
I hope Davis doesn’t end up starting alongside Bargnani that much early on in his career because he will get killed on defense by NBA starters(at least initially) and he will have no help. Play Johnson(decent help defender) with Bargnani(decent man defender). Davis can come off the bench and guard back-up PFs alongside Bargs(if he is still on the floor) or alongside Dorsey/Alabi/DJones/(some new guy).
Johnson is ideally a third big man in the rotation, but he is also still a young guy with a freshly signed contract. If Davis is inserted ahead of him in the rotation without first beating him out at training camp then I think that would be poor coaching. Also, Davis seems like a down-to-earth guy who might be embarrassed to be handed something he hadn’t earned.
Bargnani and Kleiza seem to be the guys who will playing the lowpost - definately room for another body to help with that - and dont forget that we need a permiter defender too
I wouldn't rely on Kleiza...
to be on the blocks a lot. If memory serves me right he shot the ball a lot from the outside when in Denver…..no stats to back it up….just having watched him play.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 22, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Gordon from the Clippers
If we need a player who can create his own shots, Gordon from the Clippers could be a fit as he matures from his sophomore year. May be able to dump Calderon’s fat pay at the same time.
Love it…but can’t see Clips letting him go. From the Clips media I spoke to in Vegas, sounds like Gordon, Griffin and hopefully Aminu are the future nucleus they want to build around.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 22, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
The best way Barbosa will help the Raps is if he starts cooking up some of that amazing Brazilian bbq.
AB prob eats pasta all day so brazillian BBQ wont phase him
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 22, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding Barbosa, anything and I mean ANYTHING he gives the Raps is gravy. In my mind his value will pay off after next season when his contract comes off the books 2 years before Hedo’s would have. Anthing is better than 4 more years of Hedo at near 11mil per.
As for the Raptors current roster, here is what I figure the starting line up to look like:
C- Bargani
PF – Amir Johnson
SF – Linas Kleiza
SG – Demar DeRozan
PG – Jarret Jack
That’s 25 to max 35 win territory folks… Especially considering the bench consists of rookies, projects, a PG that can’t play defence and other marginal NBA talent.
That’s actually ironic, because we all know BC is NOT trying to rebuild/tank and even so, the Raptors very well may end up with one of the 5 worst records in the NBA.
Wow
That really is a poor looking line up, even for a homer like me. Mind you, there are still lots of parts for BC to work with to try to improve.
Contracts – Banks, Evans
Trade Exceptions – 2.5 and 15ish million
Players that might yield a return – Jose/Jack, Belli, Barbosa (I suspect everyone else is safe)
And don’t forget we still have the option to S&T Wright (lol, I can’t beloeve that really was listed as an asset heading into this offseason!)
Actually, looking at our list of tradeable assets, I just got a little more depressed. The trade exception is the most valueable thing, but with so many teams under the cap, and other teams with large exceptions, even that loses relative value.
I might agree with 25-30 wins, but I have a lot riding on 42 wins!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 22, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree
Jumps out at you. Lacks any star power. Obtainable through a high lottery pick.
Do not want to get negative though, we are definately taking a step back this season. That should be our plan.
I think we are setting our expectations too high for the trio of Weems, Johnson and Demar. If we are asking them each to give us 30 minutes, a high lottery pick shall be ours.
Remember the other Italian...
I know he has fallen off the deep end of the depth chart, but I think Bellinelli would be an excellent compliment to Barbosa, with his length, ballhandling and passing ability. Also, if Jose is traded, we will be quite short on shooters to stretch the D – again somewhere that Belli could help out. Being a BellinNelli fan may be a bit passe – but his skills could be quite useful with this years squad, and he is a capable defender.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 22, 2010 1:32 PM EDT reply actions
You’re right… but I think Belinelli will ultimately get caught up in a numbers game with far too many wingmen needing minutes. He probably gets lumped in with Reggie Evans, Marcus Banks, etc as a treadeable asset.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 22, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Should he though?
I know everyone is loving on the young guns right now, but Belli might just be one of those guys that needs a chance. The Raps played better with him on the floor last year than any of the other current options, but still he seems to be the forgotten man. I’d be curious what other posters might think.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 22, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You know this exact issue – why Belli languished on the bench for long stretches of last season – was captured in an exchange with Jay Triano and one of the beat reporters in a post game scrum after a game in Milwaukee:
Paraphrasing…
Reporter: Why did you yank Belli so quick?
Triano: Because every time we put him in they isolated on him and he gave up 3 offensive rebounds in about 2 minutes to Jerry Stackhouse (Jerry FREAKING Stackhouse)!!
Belli is just another terrible defender that has a streaky jump shot that sometimes, maybe goes in…
I’m willing to take a bet today that the raps get more than 27.5 wins. Anyone willing to take the under?
LoL.. I swear.. without looking I pegged 27.5, and guess what the vegas O/U for the Raps is right now?
You know what... As currently constructed.
That O/U for wins/losses might be spot on… I would probably put it closer to 29.5 and take the under.
Yep, I’m taking under 29.5 now that Barnes appears to be signing with the Lakers for a year.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 22, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I laid a chunk-o-cash on over. I’m betting that BC uses the TPE for something decent landing some kind of SF. I still have this feeling Iggy is coming.
Well, yes – if they manage to turn that exception into something then all bets are off. That being said, there’s always the possibility that the exception is allowed to expire while we are forced to listen to spin about how nothing made sense from an organizational perspective… young gunz… Bargnani is the man… yadda, yadda, yadda…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 22, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The exception expiring is a distinct possibility, but I’d say it is a better outcome than adding a so-so player who adds maybe 5 wins while compromising the long term salary structure as well as worsening next year’s draft pick.
Exception possibilities:
Best – used in a trade to acquire a valuable long term guy
Good – used to pick up one or more useful prospects
Not Great – exception expires unused
Bad – used to pick up stop gap guy
Terrible – used to pick up stop gap guy with long contract (Hedo part II)
Totally Agree...
I can’t make up my mind on the TPE… One side of mmy brain wants us to go after some legit talent and try and right the ship. The other side thinks yes, MLSE will let it expire (while spinning how there were no deals to be made) just like the missing 3 million in cash that was SUPPOSD to be used to buy some picks.
However, if the TPE expires and the team stays as is, is that really such a bad thing? I mean, like I said before, this team is an under 29.5 win team and getting a top 5 pick next draft, plus Miami’s pick, plus some upcoming cap space and Bob’s your uncle – we be rebuilding baby… Tough call man.
BC sent cash to Dallas as part of the Alabi pickup.
Anyway, I am totally for the latter case – tank hard. Well, not tank, you play your best players and try to win, but make sure the ‘best players’ getting time are our young, promising players. Big minutes for DD, Weems, Bargs, Davis, Amir, Alabi. Big pick at the end of the year. Best case scenario in my view. Older young guys get 30+ minutes, rookies get 15-20 minutes – puts them well on the way to a solid young core.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 23, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Trade exception might be even more valuable this year
With the CBA ending this year and nobody knows what the new one will be like, there may be a disappointing team or two this year that would happily get rid of major talent just to protect themselves in the new CBA world. I’m not saying the Raptors should take on garbage, but if the Spurs implode for example, they may want to start their rebuild and get rid of Tony Parker for prospects instead of salary. The trade exception would allow the Raptors to do this.
For the Bearish Raptors fans
Right now I pencil in Weems as the starting two guard, not DeRozan. I know DD looked better in summer league, but Money Weems was a real force in the last third of the season, and I think he’s going to carry it through here. Between his seemingly outstanding shooting from 18 feet in, and his ability to take his man off the dribble, I see Weems opening up the floor for Drea, Linas and whoever’s running the point. (side note: I don’t see it as a foregone conclusion that Calderon isn’t our starter — he’s still a helluva offensive player when he’s on).
If Weems is as good as I hope/think/pray, that’s a big chunk of scoring and FTs that most of y’all seem to be ignoring.
I think the starting two spot should be Weems’ to lose. To start DeMar AGAIN would just be repeating last year’s mistake (although he may perform marginally better to begin this season). DeMar needs to EARN his spot.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 22, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sonny @ the 3
I wouldnt mind having Weems play at the 3.
- it can free up “space” at the 2
- most likely would start over Kleiza, baring any other acquisition at that spot
- his defense would only improve with every passing game (lets hope so atleast)
- more oppurtunities for a Barbs-DD-Weems-Davis-JOhnson line up which would dominate athletically ( and be a nightmare defensively and shooting wise)
Fan of :
Toronto Raptors
Arizona Cardinal
Kansas Jayhawks
Gotta say – why not Demar at the 3? And Sonny at the 2? Some say there’s not enough 3pt shooting there, but I disagree. Assume Bargs, Jose, Amir, DD, Sonny:
Bargs brings opposing C out to defend 3pt line (top-wing).
Jose runs P+R with Amir at wing, with Demar, Sonny in the corners. Shorter 3pt range for DD, Weems make them possibly viable options from there (if they’ve worked on their shots this summer). P+R almost always brings help, which allows DD, Weems to go for alley-oops/crash the boards, or opens up Bargs for 3ptr.
Or, DD or Weems are ball handlers, running P+R with Amir, with Jose, Bargs set for shot, other one of DD/Weems going for alley/boards when help moves.
Or, DD or Weems run P+P with Bargs, at top of 3pt line, (P+P opens driving lane more than P+R), with Amir prepped for ally or rebound, or running off-ball screen to free other wing for cut to the basket.
And that doesn’t even touch on the hornets-nest a Bargs high-post-up would be in terms of cuts and lane passes.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 23, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
barbosa
barbosa not being introduced is so sketch what the hell is going on here
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 25, 2010 12:11 AM EDT reply actions



















