If the Matt Barnes Signing Falls Through, is Social Media Partly at Fault?
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
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PrintIt's on, it's off...Raptors' fans continue their ride on the free-agent roller coaster and the HQ wonders if the new media is partly to blame.
So much for throwing up my Eric Hughes interview this morning.
The whirling dervish known as Bryan Colangelo had other ideas as about 10 PM last night, news broke that the Raptors were honing in on signing Matt Barnes to a two-year contract worth between $4.5 and $5M per season.
On first take, I was ecstatic.
I had wanted to see Barnes become a member of the Toronto Raptors for the past few seasons, only to have Colangelo look the other way with his off-season moves.
He's only an average player by PER (12.7 over career but over 14 the past few seasons) but when you factor in defensive metrics, he's a lot more valuable (around 4 wins produced by Dave Berri's metrics.)
And that of course doesn't take into account his grit and ability to frustrate opponents:
Unfortunately there were immediately some questions about this proposed signing as soon as it was announced.
For starters, how would this even work financially?
Toronto had used the vast majority of its mid-level on Linas Kleiza and was over the cap. And from Orlando's vantage point, how could they do a sign-and-trade when S&T's must be for a min of three years with the first year guaranteed, and Toronto was only offering a two-year deal?
Something didn't make sense.
Sure enough, a few hours later, the reports started to trickle in that there had been some financial miscalculations and the deal was on the rocks.
Hmmm...I don't know about you, but this doesn't exactly look good for the Raps does it?
I mean first the Chandler deal gets vetoed, then a deal that everyone AGREES to gets shot down because Barnes' agent and the respective clubs he's been dealing with can't do a little math?
Well, it's not as simple as that of course, but barring some stroke of genius, the Raptors reneging on their offer to Kleiza, or Toronto clearing cap space by moving a player back to Orlando, this just doesn't seem to be a viable option any more.
I know that Brandon Bass reportedly wants out, and Toronto has been trying to move guys like Reggie Evans, so what about some type of permutation which would see Evans and maybe the newly acquired Dwayne Jones head to the Magic for Bass and Barnes? The deal works financially but we'll probably know more today as to what direction, if any, BC and co. are headed with this mess.
And I say mess not only because of this situation, and that of Tyson Chandler, but because if Toronto wanted Barnes, why did they make an offer to Kleiza in the first place? Barnes is the better defender, more versatile, and if the two-year deal that was first reported was true, comes with a much better contract from the standpoint that it gives the club a lot more financial flexibility for the next wave of big free agents.
Not to mention, we still haven't received any official confirmation of the Kleiza signing from the Raptors' PR folks, so you gotta wonder just what's going on now.
But can Bryan really back out of his commitment to Linas?
He's already flown him into Toronto and introduced him to the media etc, etc, so the optics won't be good, and would probably damage his reputation in these matters down the line.
In the end unless Barnes is part of some bigger sign-and-trade scenario, I think Toronto has to settle for Kleiza and we see Mr. Barnes take his talents to a contender like Boston.
It's unfortunate, but these things happen and I'd argue thanks to social media, will be happening on a more frequent basis going forward. It's not 2003 where trades still broke after the fact via local media, nor is it even 2008 where the internet dominated sports reporting.
Nowadays, the cat is out of the bag at the first opportunity, well before teams have a chance to finalize such matters. Last night ESPN.com, Yahoo Sports, the Orlando Sentinel.com, and a myriad of blogs and talking heads were immediately on the Barnes scoop and soon Matt Barnes was a trending topic on Twitter in Canada.
Barnes himself tweeted that he was off to Toronto so it really left very little room for error.
I waited a while before commenting on the proposed deal fearful of what now appears to be a reality, and I could just picture Colangelo and his crew frantically pouring over arcane copies of the CBA to find some loophole to now pull off something that everyone assumed was a done deal. I can't imagine how tricky social media has made things and you have to wonder if it isn't partly responsible for the downfall of such moves.
Sure, the bottom line is this might fall through because of poor economic planning or assumptions made by all parties involved. But maybe what ended up being plastered all over the net was just a first iteration or part of a process? Had things not been broken via Twitter, would the deal continued as planned until completion?
While I was in Vegas, I had a good chat with the Raptors' head of PR regarding this issue. It started when I had asked how Jose was taking the recent trade rumours and speculation etc. While the PR rep hadn't spoken to Jose, he assumed Calderon was riding quite the roller coaster of emotion, based on his feelings for TO etc in the past.
I went on to ask about how difficult social media had made his job and if he was now constantly putting out fires, instead of strategically positioning various communications to the masses. He acknowledged that it did make things a lot more tricky, but the media environment was a constantly changing one and there was little use in complaining about it. Twitter, Facebook, etc, etc, are the new reality and it was his job to do the best that he could to ensure their use met the Raptors' rules, regulations and needs.
And I agree.
But as we're witnessing this morning, I'd also add that from a fan's perspective, it means applying an old saying to this relatively new medium:
"Don't count your chickens before they hatch."
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I’m not sure if this is as much about Social Media as a misinformed Barnes (most likely by the agent). He probably would have leaked it somewhere else and we’d be reading about it today. Then getting the recant tomorrow.
What’s changed now, is we’re getting the minute by minute play by play, and people are reacting to everything.
It maybe years or never, but hopefully one day we’ll all learn and not believe every ESPN’s the Magazine is reporting…
BTW Mr BC. You may not be reading my blogs carefully enough. When I said I wanted Barnes.. I meant Harrison Barnes!!
Yep, BC got the wrong Barnes…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
the only way
i see this deal going through is if another team is involved who signs Barnes
something like this:
Sacromento signs Barnes, ships him off with Dalembert to Raps for Calderon + Reggie/TPE/2nd rounder
The ACTUAL only way is...
… for the Raptors and Kleiza to agree to mutually renounce the offer sheet they signed with him – leaving him a RFA of the Nuggets.
The Raptors would then use the MLE money put aside for Kleiza on Barnes’ deal.
Then, the Nuggets would sign and trade Kleiza to the Raps for roughly 4.5 million of the TPE from the Bosh move. The number for Kleiza may have to increase to convince him to back out of his current agreement – say to 5 million starting salary.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Bang on.
The only other thing I could think of was Orlando re-signing Barnes and then moving him in some sort of combo deal but that would also mean the Raptors giving him a 3-year contract…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Won't work
The most Orlando can offer Barnes is less than $2M.
Yep, sorry, just realized that – nice catch.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Zing!
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 20, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
If the issue is the minimum three years then wouldn’t it be an easy fix? Just add a third year with a player and team option. Problem solved. Therefore there has to be another issue (like Orlando doesn’t want to do a sign and trade with Toronto).
Orlando could only sign Matt to the BAE, about $2 million.
The Magic have used up their MLE are over the cap and do not have Matt’s Bird rights.
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them." - Alonzo Mourning after winning the DPOY award
by NC Magic Fan on Jul 20, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
And doing the old “Wink Wink, take the 2 million this year, opt out and we will pay you the rest next year” is out now thanks to Kevin McHale.
Yep…unless the Magic want to give away draft picks for the next 5 years.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
So funny because that’s so true, and yet Minny still rolled the dice on it! Are they not the most mismanaged team in history? Are they possibly worse than the Clips? You take KG off that team and what else has there been in their history? Sam Mitchell?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought that Barnes had to be with the Magic for three years before they had Bird Rights to do a sign-and-trade at 5M. Since Barnes was only in Orlando for one year, they are probably limited to using whatever cap exceptions they have in a sign-and-trade scenario.
a plan
can we do this
do a sign an trade for barnes for a year and 2mill and then offer him a contract extension right after?
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions
and upgrade it to 15 mill over 3 years
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
No. This is a) not possible under the CBA and b) highly illegal – see McHale, Kevin.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Dont blame social media
I keep bitching about this – you can’t blame social media. Blame the players and their agents and also Raptors front office – BC need to make it clear to all the free agents – shut up until its official. If you leak this out its going to hurt your wallet. If chandler didn’t open his mouth he could have been here – same thing may happen with Barnes.
As for the Kleiza deal – can the raptors dump him or is an offer sheet an official deal? BC can come up with dozens of excuses for why Kleiza fell through and not hurt his reputation as players get screwed directly or indirectly every other week.
An offer sheet is a contract – they cannot withdraw from it unless the Raptors, the Nuggets, and Kleiza all agree to allow it. They would also have needed to withdraw last week.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It is possible that Chandler didn’t want to come here and leaked it to get another team to step up their offer. Barnes I believe was using Toronto to establish his value on the open market. Now, a team will have to at least come close to that amount if they want to sign him.
chandler did not leake anything he just confirmed he was going to toronto
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
lol there should be a delete comment option
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure that was the plan, but it definitely opened the door. Where was Dallas with that offer of garbage + more garbage for Chandler before?
hahah offer of garbage is right
by sherwin316 on Jul 20, 2010 4:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not blaming social media entirely, hey, I’m a huge proponent. But to my point, 7 years ago, maybe this doesn’t happen because no one realizes what’s going on until either a) the deal falls through or b) some other version is concocted because all parties realize the original financial errors in their ways.
Just a very interesting situation.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
wake me up when the roster is done.
screw this, I’m waiting for training camp now, who even cares who’s on the team—this on and off signing crap is annoying.
by Original Aaron on Jul 20, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
Yup...
Seriously. Let me know when BC has finished spending all available resources for bench players that will end up being starters on this team.
Lost in all this “trade and free agent talk” is this reality – great point, and something we’ll be discussing as soon as we get a chance.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
So we can stop debating the merits of starting Diaw at SF now? lol
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
That is the same problem David Kahn will inevitably run into. Not that having one or two of these players slightly overpaid is a problem. But when you have a ton of them, your team will max out as about a .500 team with the big IF – if everything breaks right. And that is a pretty unpleasant thought.
basically 4.5-5 Mil a year is more than what barnes made playing in the NBA for the last 5 years combined. There is no way he is going to turn this down – somehow the #’s will add up in the end and i dont think anyone is gonna give him that much.
Agreed – Toronto’s only position of leverage was the number of dollars they were willing to throw at him – everyone else is going to try and low ball him hoping he “wants to win a title.”
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I should clarify.. a better fit for the Raptors. He’s a defensive dude who can chuck up a few threes at times. Younger and cheaper?
Career Averages:
MB: 6’7, 1980, MPG: 21.3, FG% 44, 3P%:32, FT% 72, RPG 4.4, APG 1.7, PPG 7.3
JY: 6’8, 1981, MPG: 23.2, FG% 41, 3P% 36, FT% 79, RPG: 3.1, APG 1.1, PPG 8.3
Looks like the same dude to me, especially when you add their defensive capabilities.
Relatively similar statistically, I’d give Barnes the benefit of the doubt for his rebounding/D. Ideally, Barnes is your 5th best starter or plays a bench role, at 2-3m per season on a short term contract tops.
Hayes is a vet min guy and lucky to be in the league. As such, he has played for losers his entire career. Probably because his shooting % are atrocious, especially for a “shooter” and he doesn’t do anything else well.
cleveland blog - sums it up nicely
“NBA media members like John Hollinger and Adrian Wojnarowski started wondering how, exactly, a deal like that would work. First off, Toronto doesn’t have their mid-level exception anymore. If they signed Barnes outright, they wouldn’t be able to pay him more than $1.9 million per season. A sign-and-trade could work, except that those deals need to be a minimum of three years. Additionally, the Orlando Magic didn’t have the ability to sign Barnes for anywhere close to the reported $5 million per year amount, and even if they did, it would have to be for three years to execute a trade.
So what we are left with are stories this morning blaming the deal falling apart due to a "miscalculation" in the deal. So, what happened for sure, nobody knows. It is possible that the stupidity is 100% in the court of Barnes’ agent because you have to assume he said something to the player. Beyond that, assuming the front offices of Orlando and Toronto were involved, this whole incident screams of amateur hour. Who knows? Maybe they are allowing their summer interns to negotiate sign-and-trade deals and they learned a valuable lesson about the salary cap yesterday."
wow if this is BC fault he should be fired right away how can you be dumb enough to not even know the rules of your own job
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You can’t make it to the top without ruffling a few feathers, stepping on a few toes, breaking some rules, pushing the limits, thinking outside the box, etc…
Of course, GMing like this means your idiocy will be mocked incessantly by people like me.
There’s a difference between “thinking outside of the box” and being creative and simply not having a grasp of the Collective Agreement that governs your environment.
Ya think?
I really think folks are giving BC way too little credit. Yeah it sucks if this deal falls through, but remember what BC did last year in the Hedo trade? I think he knows about how the cap works.
Mind you, I know many of you like bitching about BC so go for it…
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No, no, no,
Not true. BC HIMSELF even parised the work of one of his underlings for discovering the 4 way cap friendly deal for Hedo. BC admitted he was going to sign Hedo outright before the idea was broaght to him by another member of his staff (can’t remember the guys name). Watch the Hedo press conference, he says it right there.
And who hired the capologist? A good GM will have a team of people working for him to help him. It’s to BC’s credit that he praised the work of someone on his team.
While a GM might know the CBA in and out, I’d still want that GM to have a capologist to provide a second opinion. Because a GM needs to know so much more than just how the CBA works, I don’t see how any decent team cannot operate without a specialist like the capologist.
Sure, fair enough...
I was just correcting the statement made by Archibaled. If you read it, it appears to me that he is crediting BC with that deal. Here’s the quote:
“Yeah it sucks if this deal falls through, but remember what BC did last year in the Hedo trade? I think he knows about how the cap works.”
Fair enough
Perhaps I was overreacting to the “No, no, no”
My apologies if you felt I was being too harsh.
Well,
Blanket my reply in with siggian. BC made the deal with input from his staff. You can’t really have it both ways. BC made the deal. Do you think the capologist from the hedo deal has been sacked? No one in this forum even knows why this Barnes deal is broken or how it came about.
Can i be your bro too ;-)
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
One little detail you need to remember
There are no comments from the Teams to confirm or mention anything, only information from the famous “sources” of ESPN-Yahoo and Barnes through his agent. Until the teams comment everthing is speculation.
dude BC didnt come out saying the deal was done
it was barnes himself who tweeted it. its not BC’s fault, its barnes who leaked out his possible future. yall are stupid, blaming BC again for something he didnt even do. seriously. he made one of the most complicated deals last year and you think he’s dumb that he cant do his math. seriously people. get a grip
Capped Out
.
There has to be more to this picture. I find it hard to believe that our resident Cap Guru – he of 4 team Turk trade fame (that capologists dream about) – would overlook “basic” salary cap rules & simple math. Just can’t see that being the situation. Has to be more to this.
.
Was just having this discussion with D-Stance…how did they miss this? Which is why I brought up the social media piece – I think the details came out way too early while both teams were still trying to make sense of how such a move would work…oh…and Barnes’ agent SLIGHTLY jumping the gun.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
We should test this social media curse out by having Linas announcing his signing with the Raps.
Then we can watch a live feed to see if his offer sheet disappears into thin air or gets eaten by a dog.
LOL
Or Hedo pops up, uses the offer sheet to wipe pizza off his face, then disappears.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 20, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
ya barnes is a dumbass for posting shit on twitter before it was finalized. this whole process feels so wierd. kinda of feels like a suspencefull Tv serial were the narrator asks questiosn at the end of the movie in a deep voice “why didnt kleiza sign?” “what will happen to matt barnes?” to find out tune into the next episode
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 12:54 PM EDT reply actions
lol
I love u Raps fans, I always get a chuckle when I read your post. One thing is for sure, us Raps fans have the best sense of humor.
What’s happening with Jose is he still on the trading blocks, can’t believe we are dogging JC like that, it was just a couple of years ago, I could not post anything about Jose being a TJ fan, but I would love to see Jose get another season with the Raps a midst all this trade talk, should be interesting.
My take on Barnes, we are offering him way too much money, he is not a starter, even though I see him starting for the Raps and ending up being an allstar in 2011..lol
Bargs
This is the year of ll Mago, Bargs will be the go to guy comes next season for the Raps. I predict he will average 20/10 and will be Toronto lone Allstar in LA next february. Bosh was over shadowing Bargs and now he will have the red light to do whatever he wishes playing at his true PF position, I am putting all my eggs in one basket for Bargs this season……can’t wait for training camp…
I might be mistaken, but I don’t believe many 18-20 win teams have sent guys to the All-Star game.
And I’m not much of a gambler, but I’d pretty much bet my house that Bargnani will never average 10 rebounds per game. Hell, I’d be surprised if he averaged more than 8 or 9 per game over the course of a season.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Mr Downer
Yeah, he sucks worse than this team!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not about being a "Downer"
It’s about looking at the facts, reviewing all the evidence and statistics available to you and facing reality.
If you want to be a “homer” and ignore the truth all the more power to ya.
Yeah, facts
I’d be surprised if Bargs pulled down 10 a night too, but you HAVE to admit there is a negative slant on everything BC does this off season. Barnes woiuld be a great acquisition, but I have heard people dumping on him about that. BC traded Hedo for someone that isn’t useless and doesn’t have a bad contract, but I haven’t heard anyone saying how awesome he is for doing that – though I did hear the ‘Non-homers’ explain why Hedo could never ever possibly be traded because his deal was so bad. Ed Davis and Alibi were excellent picks, or am I just a homer?
There are two sides to each argument, and usually you get both sides in this forum. I’ve been here for a while and the quality of the comments is what has kept me coming back. This year though, it feels like everyone is seeing the Raps world through shit coloured glasses. There is evidence to support both sides and statistics can show you anything you want them to. Does it make me a homer to see the glass half full – perhaps, but if I wanted to be a fan of a team I hated I would pick one better than the Raps.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s the thing about the Hedo trade: He’s going to a team where his AGENT is now the general manager. That doesn’t exactly strike me as some random NBA team thinking “you know what, $10-12 million for Hedo over the next few seasons is totally worth it!”
That being said, turning Hedo into Barbosa was a terrific deal by Colangelo… Chandler/Diaw-for-Calderon/Evans would’ve been great… I don’t think Amir Johnson is overpaid by that much… Two years of Matt Barnes is far more tolerable than five years of Kleiza… Davis and Alabi both appear to be decent draft picks.
I have no issues with what Colangelo has done THIS offseason. It’s the previous performance that leaves little to be desired (see the Turkoglu signing, premature/bidding against yourself Bargnani extension, etc).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I go back to my alternate universe game. But lets iso- the hedo deal from last year.
Scenario: Bosh, one year left of contract.
Options: Do something? Do Nothing?
If Do nothing.. well then.. so be it, you’re saying, we’re not going to try, and we’ll just lose Bosh because you think we’re going to lose him anyways.
If Do Something: 1) SIgn the #1 FA at market rate 2) Sign someone else that may keep bosh.
What did you propose?
If Do Something: 1) SIgn the #1 FA at market rate 2) Sign someone else that may keep bosh.
3) Make trade(s) into the cap space for a player or players who are far more productive than the free agent Portland seems willing to overpay.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus I always love everyone’s hindsight GMing of “I would have traded X for Kobe Bryant and Lebron James” and I rule!
Just putting that third option out there.
Honestly, you would’ve been hard pressed to sign or trade for a player who was a worse fit for the 2009-10 Raptors than Hedo Turkoglu. And that’s not hindsight – I was celebrating his signing with Portland when I thought it meant Colangelo wouldn’t be able to waste money on Turk.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
As a GM you have to be able to analyse “fit”. Like, will this defensive nightmare of a small forward be able to start on a team that already has a defensive nightmare of a Centre and Point Guard in the starting line up. It just goes to the Colangelo solution for everhting since he got here: “just throw more offense at the problem, rinse repeat”.
And I get what you mean about “market value” but just because some other asshole is willing to over pay for an aging player with declining skills doesn’t mean you would have to.
There was more than enough detractors of the Turkaglu deal from ESPN, to SI to this blog here. I would hazard to say that the majority of basketball minds thought this was a bad idea. For Christ sakes even Otis Smith, GM of the Magic was secreatly laughing at the deal.
If I was in charge and the only option was to either sign Turk or not, I would opt for not, because signing Hedo Turkaglu was not going to convince CB4 to stay.
So you’re in the I’d rather let CB4 go and not try. Which is fine.. but would BC been equally criticized for not even trying and letting CB go? How much better would the scenario have been?
No, I just don’t frame the problem the same way. I would never think that signing Hedo Turkaglu would be a step in the right direction to keeping CB4 because I never thought that signing Hedo would make the Raptors more successfull. So in esence, in my mind, signing Hedo just hastened CB4’s departure. And before you suggest that hindsight is 20/20 or something like that, I often posted last summer “Just say no to He-do”.
That’s fine.. but what would you HAVE done instead? Go for the miraculous super trade? Or is there someone else on the list you would have signed?
You know who would have made sense last year...
Matt Barnes, who ironically does not make sense this year.
So Matt Barnes would have gotten the Raps into the playoffs and beat Orlando, Atlanta, Cleveland or Boston? Thusly keeping CB4 (if you wanted to keep him)?
Sorry didn't know getting to the second round of the playoffs was a pre-requisite...
My basic point here is Turk = bad move and even doing little or nothing was a better decision.
See my basic point is.. in that alternate universe, you’d be whinning about what lack of talent we have or something or rather and that BC failed to do anything the previous year and he should be fired.
There is no scenario in which you’re not whinning about something unless BC pulled off some miracle trade.
I think you hit the nail on the head
But you aren’t whinning – so you are a homer that doesn’t understand how the NBA works.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh was not resigning with the Raptors regardless of what moves Colangelo did or did not make. I think that’s become painfully obvious.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
True
I was long pulling for a Bosh and something for Biedrins and Monta swap. I always thought we were going to lose Bosh anyways so we should be building around Bargs.
Mind you, we don’t know what Bosh told BC etc.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes that would have been the next alternate universe.. if BC decided Bosh was not the direction and make whatever trade a player like him with 1 year remaining would get…. but ultimately at the end of the day…. The Raptors would have +/- 5 wins or loses and be at about the same position as today and no more or less a contender. And thusly, everyone would be upset.
Speaking of Golden State, I actually would’ve been happy with a swap similar to what New York received for David Lee. I think Anthony Randolph has a chance to put up numbers comparable to Bosh AND they got Turiaf and Azubuike (spelling?) to boot!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally Agree
I do love all those parts that came back to NY. However, for that deal to work Lee had to want to go to GS. GS is an awful team but what a great city to live in! End of the day, there won’t be many upper tier UFA’s that want to come north of the border.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if all of his options are bad, then he shouldn’t be blamed for not doing anything.
What is worse is choosing one of the first two options of these three: jumping off a cliff/into a firey pit/nothing.
I understand that inactivity looks bad, but he created the situation he was in that required through mismanagement. It’s not out of the question that he could have created a somewhat attractive situation by making some wise decisions instead of so many foolish ones.
The other side of it is that, if he had built a better team, even if Bosh left – the players who remained would be better.
yes if he had built a better team by getting Kobe or Lebron right? It’s true he sucks for not having accomplished that.
Or better yet.. not drafting Roy right? Or Kevin Durant?
Look I'm not the GM..
And I don’t ahve access to the info and intelligence that BC does, so I can’t say specifically what trades I would have pulled off or free agents I would have signed in the summer of ‘09, and think that it is a bit unfair of you to ask that of me. I think that there were probably a good number of different directions BC could have gone that would have been better for the franchise and potentially keeping CB4. But like I said, I’m not privy to any trade conversations BC could or SHOULD have been having with other excecutives. What I am absolutely sure of is that I thought the Turk move was a bad idea then and I still think it was a bad idea now. So I don’t agree with the hole “poor BC’s hands were tied and he was forced to sign Turk to keep Bosh”. I think that is a cop out.
I’m not saying poor BC either.. What I’m saying is, unless a magic schooling trade happens, you’d still be a hater today.
LOL, in order to be a hater I would have to be envious of BC’s success… which is non existant, so how can I be a hater? Critical of underachievement, lack of performance and overall poor results? Yes.
Sure if BC pulls off some good moves and get’s this franchise into a solid position fiscally and talent wise, and changes his entire philosophy (favouring jump shooter who can’t defend) I will be the first to sing his praises… However the team is currently a capped out mess and based on his track record and refusal to rebuild I have little to zero confidence in him as a GM going forward.
Its funny how everyone hated the Hedo deal
Its pretty hard to find anyone who doesn’t claim to have hated the Hedo signing. Yet my recollection at the time was that while there was some concern over the length of the deal, and I do remember some questions re his D, but for the most part, people were marvelling at the creativity of the deal and felt pretty good about it. Yet now, everybody and there sister claims they are on record as hating the deal.
I know my reaction was:
a) Why on earth did we use all our cap space to sign Hedo Turkoglu? This is terrible!
Then…
b) Holy crap BC is a genius for orchestrating a move that gives us flexibility to get more players!
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it is now painfully obvious...
that the next time the HQ team gets together for beers UStation MUST be there.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 20, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
I was never a huge fan of the Turk signing and was paying attention when Franchise started warning us how bad he was eventhough quite a few people thought he might end up here.
That said, I did like the way BC did the signing by acquiring other assets and cap room in the deal. There wouldn’t be any Young Guns this year if not for the Turk deal. And everyone LOVED the Portland GM that made the same decision to throw Hedo a lot of money.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
True, true...
Until you remember that he DIDN’T sign in Portland… Hey sometimes you have to be lucky to be good! : )
Yes.. lucky for them to had sucked for several years.. lucky that Roy dropped down..
Yes.. lucky for them to had sucked for several years.. lucky that Roy dropped down..Man even I could be an NBA GM with that kinda luck.
I think you are missing my point. Pritchard was LUCY that BC swooped in with a godfather offer and prevented his own insanity. Pritchard was GOOD enough to get to a position where he had oodles of young talent, a franchise player in Roy, a up and coming playoff team, and still had money to needlessly throw away on Hedo.
No I get it.. so essentially take over a team that had previously picked up a franchise player that dropped on draft day along with a #2 pick, then get the #1 overall pick. Gotcha. I’ll look for that in the next GM job opening.
Not soo fast!
How about, walk in the door with a young All-Star/Franchise qulaity player, the #1 overall pick and a huge amount of cap space. Because that’s what BC walked into. Now look at Toronto (capped out, middling young talent, Franchise player just left, Bargani……… Euros, etc. etc.) and look at Portland… I’ll take Portland situation any day!
Arguing that Pritchard got handed a better situation than Colangelo won’t get any sympathy.
Colangelo didn’t get the best, but still got one of the better rebuilding situations in recent memory. Look at how crappy the Cavs are. Good luck with that one.
He was in one of the better situations with this lineup? http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2006.html
check back a few posts to one of my alternate universe threads.
I’m no BC apologist, but where is this team if he didn’t turn thin air into assets (Garbo, Parker, Moon).
He didn’t make thin air into assets or do anything exceptional. He used money to sign players at a high price – every GM can do that. He traded junk for junk, occassionally getting the better of those low-impact swaps like Araujo/Humphries, Jones/Dixon, George/Belinelli. The funny thing is that despite those being some of his best moves, the contributions we got from them were short-lived.
And I’m not getting into the alternate universe again, since Not So Friendly Stranger will come and argue that nothing would have worked.
My one comment about that is that many things we DID do didn’t work. My wild assumption is that had we taken another path than failure, that there were options that would have left the Raptors better off.
Absolutely...
That is the end-all of this thread: “…many things we DID do didn’t work.” We can play the speculation, alternate universe game all we like. But here we are, stuck.
Oh and LMAO @:
“And I’m not getting into the alternate universe again, since Not So Friendly Stranger will come and argue that nothing would have worked.”
LOL so true…
Besides, Turk might have actually worked in Portland where their PG’s are a little weak. The problem in Toronto was the fact they had a distributing starting PG and then brought in another PG thus turning HST into a Jason Kapono (or so the it seems the team thought he would be). In Portland he would have played a similar style as he did in Orlando except he would be feeding Roy instead of Howard and Lewis.
Actually
I think Pritchard is, I mean was an excellent GM, kinda makes BC’s signing of Hedo a little more forgiveable (but not really). Who cares though? BC tried to use Hedo to re-sign Bosh, it didn’t work, so BC traded Hedo for a useful piece with a short term deal.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is this myth that the young guns had anything to do with the Turk signing? That trade was completely unrelated to Turk. It was a sign-n-trade for Delfino that brought them here. Turks acquisition had nothing to do with it. Just as Wright and ultimately Belinelli came because of Marion S&T. You might be able to link the latter two somehow but Johnson and Weems would have been here regardless.
A cop out but
I can’t be arsed to go look into the specifics, it is just that by trading for Hedo, BC opened enough cap space to allow him to make several other moves, like Jack, the Count Chocula trade, etc. The alternative, as Pritchard was trying to do, was to just sign a UFA outright.
But like I said earlier, who really cares anymore? BC got Hedo to try to convince Bosh to stay. Bosh left, BC traded Hedo. Barbosa is a useful part and expires soon enough.
End of the day, BC is a good GM. All GM’s make mistakes, and GM has made a few, like Hedo. But BC has corrected many of his mistakes and he is constantly trying to improve the team. I am sure many will agree BC has done a good job this off season. The team on paper is almost ready for the new season, with previous weaknesses addressed. We lost our franchise player, but have hope going forward.
I would argue that this has been the case most seasons past. Most people agreed on paper with the JO trade, all we gave up was a PG with a broken back and one of those lower lotto picks that no one around here wants. Marion was a good fit when we got him, but he didn’t want to resign in TO – how is that BC’s fault?
I am happy for it to be BC making these decisions in the future. I don’t think all his decisions were terrible, despite the fact that some of them worked out that way. I don’t think I am making excuses for him, I am trying to be objective. My problem is that MLSE needs someone with clout to keep them away from the team. BC has that clout and 2 exec of the year awards. I don’t think we should chase him out of town only to replace him with…? There aren’t a lot of candidates that I think could come in and do a much better job in exactly the same circumstances.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
C’s biggest problem is that all of his biggest moves have been flops. And that
His lesser moves have been better, as I mentioned above, and inadvertently getting Weems. For some reason, teams like taking useless players like Ukic, Delfino and George while giving back more useful players. I don’t know how he does it, but he seems to be able to churn the bottom portion of a roster quite easily.
His recent drafting hasn’t been not bad or even good, which makes it sad that he placed such little emphasis on it earlier – losing our 1st round pick upon arrival and then dealing the next one and risking another one to Miami if we made the playoffs.
The Delfino trade would not have happened if Turk had signed outright – or any other free agent had been signed outright.
It was because the Raps made it a trade (be it for Hedo, or another FA S+T) that they did not need to renounce Delfino’s rights and could trade him for Amir and Weems.
So, there is definitely a connection, although it didn’t necessarily need to be Hedo, I don’t know what other FA’s were available in a S+T.
Oh, and the trade allowed the Raps to stay over the cap and use their MLE to sign Jack as well. But again, any FA with a similar salary could have been S+Ted for (theoretically) and still make that happen.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You are missing the point. If Toronto didn’t sign HST at all they still could have made all the other roster moves. Saying that because we got him in a S&T made the other moves possible is ridiculous because we are arguing that we shouldn’t signed him at all.
Missing what point? “That trade was completely unrelated to Turk.” That’s what you said. It was false. I understand your point, but you were overstating it to the extent that it was incorrect.
Of course TO would’ve had flexibility if they didn’t sign anyone. But BC had cap space and wanted to use it, and I can’t argue with that intention. He wanted to keep Bosh, and sitting pat wouldn’t accomplish that.
So he was going to sign someone – and whether it was Turk or not, his double sign-and-trade deal was the best way to make that happen and retain flexibility.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
And that’s why after what happened to the magic in the playoffs there were not only rumors but Otis himself even said he had decussions on bringing hedo back to the magic.
by sherwin316 on Jul 20, 2010 4:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough...
And yes there has been some good with the bad, the examples of the Hedo trade is an example of a good move… A good move to clean up a completly avoidable and unecessary mess.
Why some fans see things through shit coloured glasses, is because the Raptor’s current situation (just lost their franchise player, capped out, middling young talent, emphasis on Euros, too much eggs in the Bargani basket, unwillingness to commit to a rebuild ) is pretty messy. Very f’n messsy if you ask me, and the decision maker responsible should be held accountable.
Hey, I never said a word about the 20 ppg. I’m sure, with a few more touches now that Bosh is gone, Bargnani can average that. Of course, he’ll give up 30 on the defensive end of the floor and let guys like Udonis Haslem shoot 10/10 from the field, but hey…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Bargs was a better defender than Bosh
Maybe now he will have a chance. Defensively right now I am liking the Raps bigs for defence than I am liking the Heat Bigs.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh wasn’t an all-world defender by any means, but c’mon – you don’t honestly believe Bargnani was a better defender than Bosh… really?! A seven-footer who admits he’s “lazy” when it comes to rebounding and whose own coaching staff calls him clueless when it comes to help defence.
Please don’t confuse blocking one shot per game with being a good defender.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That is insane..
Sorry not trying to be mean or condescending… But that is not even worth debating.
Yeah, Ok, but I'm all fired up...
and he ain’t really that far off. Last year he saved a couple of games in the last minute with one of those blocks. I mean, Bosh is a sub par defender, so is Bargs, that is the reason why this isn’t worth debating.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Bargnani: ".. say what? "
.
10 Rebounds to go along with a possible 20 PPG, could lead to a scenario that’s too often played out in Raptorland … “I’ve decided I wanna go play for a Contenda”.
.
Realistically, I’d like to see Andre get to a 8 Rb average, and make some improvement on help defense. That would make 10 million per season seem like a steal.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 20, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
More than 20 wins in this division
I don’t think you can overstate how bad the Atlantic Division will be this year. The fact that the Raptors get to play the Knicks, Nets and Sixers 4 times each virtually ensures that they won’t finish with one of the worst records in the league.
The Knicks, Nets and Sixers will arguably be better than the Raptors, so I’m not sure I follow the logic.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Now he has the red light huh? Green light would probably let him do more…
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I think so too. Bagnani will average 35 ppg, 15 rpg, 2 blk, and he will dunk clear over Bosh (ala Vince Carter over the russian guy) with Lebron and Wade hanging on his shoulders. Stern will then automatically advance the Raptors to the finals because of said dunk and Triano will have an offcourt fling with Lindsay Lohan when she gets out of jail. You heard it here first.
What really happened:
BC to MB’s Agent: Hey would Toronto be of interest if we can get something done?
MB’s Agent to MB: You’re maybe going to Toronto!
MB Tweets: I’m going to Toronto, and I gonna be filthy rich! Booyakka!
Blogs: Matt Barnes signes for $1B dollars (a la Dr. Evil)
i think bargnani is not bad defensibly hes average. hes had some very good games defensibly last season (game against spurs where shut down duncan and game against magic where he did a good job on dwight). I think bargnani could average 8 rebounds a game which is not bad at all
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
Why is everything so either black or white with people?
1) He’s a good individual defender against slower bigs.
2) He’s a bad defender with quicker players
3) He’s an awful help defender
so overall he sucks defending because we talking about the NBA and not the bundes liga of basketball
LMAO!! BUNDES LIGA OF BASKETBALL!!! LOLOL
That is classic…
OMG.. I can’t believe I’m remotely defending Bargs here.. but you saying one-on-one vs post ups, back to the basketball players has been horrible?
OMG.. I can’t believe I’m remotely defending Bargs here.. but you saying one-on-one vs post ups, back to the basketball players has been horrible?Wait I keep forgetting to spell it out for McG.. I’m not saying he’s an all-star one-on-one. Good, not Great, not superstar.
Let me be a little more specific about Bargs “defence”.
What he learned to do last year was to prevent the offensive player from sweeping the ball on an inside pivot (using his chest). Previous years he would use his off hand to try and block the chest zone sweep and was very weak. Guys could turn around and be in triple threat.
By using his chest last year Bigger offensive players were forced to reverse pivot and step away, which is exactly what you want. It’s why Duncan stuggled on the bank shots as his go to is the inside pivot sweep.
However smaller players with back towards the basket can take an inside drop step (more to Bargs right) and curl over and break free. Bargs was then forced to try and block from behind or foul.
Bigs faced up, couldn’t drive by Bargs, and had to deal with his length if they were going to jump shoot. Bargs no longer “jumped” each time a Big would fake a shot. Which is why he a bit more troublesome for Bigs.
Bargs would sag against smalls that go drive by which took away some of the length.
I think Bargnani fanboys should bronze the game tape from both the Spurs and Magic games. Heaven forbid we attribute either of those games to a star player having an off night – let’s continuously roll it out as anecdotal proof that Bargnani is an all-world defender!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
But you don’t really have to be all world to be better than RuPaul. Last year was the first year Bosh even tried to bulk up and go inside, and that only lasted half the season. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but what else can you do. He Blocked more shots than Bosh, rebounded WAY less, usually covered the bigger/slower big. Besides, what is your point of hating on Bargs? What new are you bringing to the conversation? He is a mediocre player that was drafted #1 overall and your feelings are hurt, we know, we all watched the same games as you. But he has improved each year despite having his position and role changed regularly. Sit back, put a defensive PF beside him and wait and see – he really can’t be much worse than Bosh was defensively.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right – Bargs has improved every year (with the exception of his brutal sophomore season). Nothing close to justifying being picked first overall. And definitely not to the point of building a team around him, making him a number one option, and lavishing a $50 million contract extension on the guy.
I make no apologies for my disdain of Bargnani’s game or annoyance of the coddling he receives from the front office and coaching staff.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
That bust was easy to spot a mile away… easier than Bargnani even! LOL
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
well… there’s something we can agree on! :) But alas.. we still don’t get paid for that kind of decision..
and if you go find the old blog.. there were TONS of people here who wanted Adam. I want to find historic records!! I hated him and his 14 year old moustache.
For the record.. my stance that year was to trade down and get Ronnie Brewer and some asset. Yes.. a relatively safe proposal.
The reality is, Aldridge and perhaps Rudy Gay were talked about at number one as well. And Aldridge would’ve been almost as bad a fit beside Bosh as Bargnani.
Roy was the move. And I still shake my head at the Suns for giving away Rondo (among others).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 20, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I love how y’all continue to make the BC’s signings like if it was some mad man who signed Jared Jefferies, Jerome James, and Eddie Curry to some crazy deals. No one’s that crazy.
So because he didn’t Zeke out on us yet we should celebrate the mediocrity of our team it its mediocre future? What a plan.
oh we’re going down this road again.. did I say celebrate? What I’m saying is react appropriately, which I know “fans” can not do.
As much as I’m a Raptors fan, I am also a fan of basketball because I started watching bball prior to having a team here, and follow other teams. So my perspective isn’t that BC is the bee’s knees nor is he Zeke.
The common thing amongst blogs are that if they didn’t win the championship, or at least preceived as close to winning, then they are going to be haters. I’m just trying to point out legit hate vs otherwise. I will say most of Raptor fan hate is illogical. Just like firing Smitch, just like firing Grunwald.
i was against the firing of Smitch if you recall, at least at that stage. My issue stems way back to the first offseason after his first year. I just did not understand all the moves he made and his comments and I am Paraphrasing because I do not remember the exact words but “We won’t need to rebound as much because we are going to hit more shots”. Thank you and enjoy your HQ.
18 -20
call me an optimist but the Raps will win more than 20 games next season…if you ask me they will be back in the playoffs as the 7th seed…i’m just saying…
I'd like to agree with you
But lets wait and see what pans out for the off season. If we do get Barnes that helps, mind you Chandler would have helped too.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 20, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
After all is said and done
After all is said and done, we all love the Raps and we are all Raptor fans. I enjoy reading your blogs, it helps make my day…..as for my team, like the name says…raps4life.
Agreed
And, as an aside, my fantasy bball league is called Raps-4-Life.
by RaptorsAddict on Jul 20, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
On another note...
Raptors just emailed us to say that DeMar made the Vegas Summer League’s “All-League Team.”
He finished 3rd in scoring.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
talking about summer league
ed davis had better stats (short on the boards) than patterson in vegas this summer
I love the photo
Some people’s affection for Matt Barnes here is reminiscent of the love for Pops-Mensah Bonsu at the ACC. (Not saying they’re similar players, just that they evoke the same irrational affection). Thus I think it’s appropriate that #44 is the guy trying futily to block Barnes’ shot in the pic.
In other notes, Tyson Chandler was never really that good even when he was good, and now he’s a lot less good than he was in his prime.
Bc
How come Barbosa cant be reached for a comment, how does he feel about coming to Hogtown?
And this whole ‘AllStar’ and McGateway bit is hilarious !!!
Because we are going to find out in about a week...
That this deal fell through as well… LOL
He’s at home in Brazil. And I assume everyone can wait until training camp to find out some stuff of no real importance.
Here’s the interview for you: “Excited to join new team” “Good opportunity for me” “Just want to do whatever coach needs me to do.”
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
agree with ustation and robert archibald
everyone here has some shit coloured glasses on.
everyones blames Bc for not doing his math on Matt barnes when BC hasnt even mentioned anything to the media and were all just getting our info from barnes’ tweet. everyone is blaming BC for selecting bargnani 1st overall in a draft where there was no consensus #1 pick and adam morrisson was the most highly touted especially by most fans here at the time, oh and when the league decided to not let High Schoolers be drafted ( Oden, durant). everyone here is saying how bargnani is the worst defensive player in the entire world, way below bosh, and how he cant improve to at least get at least 8 rebounds a game. everyone is now saying they hated the signing of hedo because it obviously failed when back when it happened you were all glorious and happy. might aswell say you disliked it in the first place, nobody here knows who you really are, right?
you all know this team will suck this year so why all the hate. accept it and move on. be happy and instead of looking in the past, why not turn and look at the future because you obviously can not go back in the past and use your 20/20 hindsight to draft brandon roy 1st overall, not sign hedo and do nothing last year just to save money, and trade bosh during mid season just before the trade deadline when our team decided to suck bad and drop from playoff contention.
everyone here seems like they knew what exactly was best for the team and that every move BC made would lead to disaster.
Some may have known what specific moves were best for the team. But now, at least now we know what didn’t work.
Since my memory sometimes fails to remind me what other players we could have gotten at specific intervals over the past number of years, what I can do is think back to specific moves and remember all of the reasons I against doing _. Frustratingly for me, there have multiple times that BC would go ahead and use up all of our resources doing something terrible before I had some time to think of things we could do. He’s timely, I’ll give him that. Almost like being GM of the Raptors is his job.
I don’t know how you can say that people are switching teams about things like Hedo. Go back and look at the threads. Even though it was a minority, some of us were pretty vocal at the time including at least 2 of the RHQ staff.
Okay, I am tired of all this so I am going to break it down for all the Defenders
You are of course entitled to your opinion but I resent your hater labeling( I hate to use this comparison but it is the one that comes to mind) it reminds me of people who call other people racist or homophobic because they do not agree with someone elses opinion. Do I want to see BC get fired? Absolutely. Do I hate him. Absolutely not. So here is a listing of the reasons that have built up in my mind as to why BC’s time has come in Toronto.
1. His signings/trades.
a)Okay, let start at the beginning shall we. Rasho Nestrovic had one of the worst contracts in basketball when the Raptors traded Eric Williams and fan favourite Matt Bonner for him. Here is the funniest part, Bonner won a championship. Is he an all-star? No. Is he someone who every team would like to have on their roster? Yes. He is cheap, does a lot of the dirty work and can hit the three ball, and ironically enough, provides the toughness this team has lacked basically since Garbo went down. I like Rasho and I especially loved him last season when he was basically making the vet minimum not the 7-8 mil he was making when he came here. In my mind, that was a bad trade because it tied up cap space for a guy who was really a backup center.
b) Oneal. – I have a great idea. We can make Chris Bosh happy by bringing in his senior self who plays only 40 games a season. All we have to do is give up a potentially good draft pick (Hibbert), a broken shell of himself PG (I was okay with that part) and the above Rasho. Well, except Rasho’s contract would have came off the books and I still believe we could have gotten a 2nd round pick for Ford from someone and that would have made me happy. But wait there is more. Did I mention that said 40 game player makes 20 million dollars taking up an entire 3rd of our salary cap? The only thing that you could say that was positive about that whole experience was that AB received some help with his D from Oneal. Of course, we don’t actually know that and probably could have hired someone like Patrick Ewing as an Asst. for 500k and some lap dance tickets, but hey why quibble over 19.5 mil . I will grant you that he did find someone to take Oneal off of our hands and gained some cap space going into that offseason but, he then wasted that cap space.
c) HST – this is old news now but I too had some issues with this signing, especially in light of his next signing in Jarret Jack. I could have lived with just HST and I think had he stopped there, it is entirely possible things might have been different as HST might have ran the offense when Jose was out of the game which would keep him happy and maximize his talents. If we had just signed Jack (and don’t give me that we needed to sign HST crap to sign Jack because he could have signed the exact same contract only we would call it FA signing instead of the MLE) and brought in either A) Matt Barnes or some other wing FA or B) brought in a true Center to play with Bosh, maybe things would have turned out differently. Do I believe that. Not for a second. Which brings me to the point I tried to argue a few days ago. The real solution to the BC dilemma was to move Bosh before he could bail on us. Think about it. If the Raptors had instead moved Bosh even just for a similar package to what we got from Miami, we would have been way ahead of the rebuilding curve. This move defined his stay here in Toronto over the last 2 or so seasons. The HST signing wasn’t a move to save the franchise (trading Bosh would probably have done that), the move was about saving BC. It takes a lot of balls to trade your franchise player away for pennies on the dollar before you are forced to and BC showed he would rather look like he tried to stop Bosh from leaving rather than take the heat for moving him a year early.
Those are the big moves, now for the small stuff.
a)Bargnani – Okay, let us forget about the fact he was drafted 1st overall for a minute because, I will be fair that even though I didn’t agree with the pick a lot people did believe it was an okay pick at the time. Instead, let us focus on last year when BC extended him. A lot of people come down on BC for the contract he gave Calderon but I am willing to give him a pass on that one because of the circumstances.
- Calderon was a UFA;
- Ford was a mental case;
- Calderon had just put together a pretty solid season and looked like he might be ready to carry the load.
I am not saying he did the right thing but I can see why he kind of had to over pay him.
Bargnani is a completely different story. Yes he had shown some signs of life but:
Bargnani still had a year to go on his existing contract so he could have waited a year to see what AB really had. This is a definite hindisight is 20/20 thing but it is obvious to me now that Fred Jones was a panic signing by BC after God boy decided that Sacramento was a better city (Huh?) than Toronto was. Jones of course netted us Dixon who netted us Beaker who netted us cap space which was entirely wasted. Good times.
- Bargnani was a RFA meaning he could have matched any offer anyone had made to him which is actually a pretty standard action when you are not sure whether someone is worth the money you might have to pay them, for evidence see Milsap, Paul or better still Gordon, Ben. If he had waited a year, do any of you really believe that Andrea would get 10 mil/year average? Honestly? Based on what? The Raptors could have had him for a lot less then they had to pay plus even if some team did overpay to steal him away, the deal would have probably been front loaded and therefore more cap friendly going forward.
b)Jason Kapono/Joey Graham/Carlos Delfino/Jamario Moon. Where to begin with this piece of crap. Joey G got an extension on his contract (if I remember correctly it was after the team signed Kapono). I was happy about that. Joey had shown some signs of life and an extension was a no brainer. Unless of course, you bring in two other players on top of your other FA signing and thus take any chance of him playing. I understand the rationale of bringing in Moon or Delfino to compete with Joey but when they brought in both I was confused. I thought at the time, how are they going to do this but I decided to bite my tongue as I still had some faith that BC might know what he is doing at that time. About mid way through the season though I was seriously concerned. Joey wasn’t getting any playing time and Delfino was hit or miss, Kapono didn’t like to take 3s even going as far as when he would be wide open he seemed to hesitate, give the d time to come out then try to dribble by them for a 20 footer(sigh) and Moon who thought he could block 3 point shots (which is a statistical unlikelihood). Hmmm, I thought. Why did we do this again. I remember people saying this was a deep team. If you meant deep with crap, you are correct sir/madam. Why extend Joey if you really didn’t have the faith in him? If they hadn’t extended him, they could have let him go a whole year earlier and that would have been that.
d) Fred Jones
So, after all that you may still wonder why I want BC to move on as maybe you don’t think that is enough to fry him. So here is my final piece on this. BC had one job last year. Decide whether Bosh would consider staying and then finding a way to appease him if he was open to staying or moving him while he could if he had already moved on in his head. A lot of people will say he tried and failed but I will instead quote Yoda “Try? Do or do not. There is no try.” or something like that. In the end BC failed to keep Bosh or failed to recognise he could not keep him. Nothing else is relevant. If the Raptors had made the 2nd round of the playoffs or even the conference championships and Bosh had still left (a la Lebron) then we could forgive him for doing everything required of him (though the argument still remains that he should have realised that Bosh was gone anyway in that case) instead he built a crappy team that need Bosh just to make the playoffs. There is nothing more to say. Do or do not. There is no try.
jesus you trying to write a book McGate LMAO
but ya why are there paragraphs crossed out??? lol
I agree with most of what you have written above and could add a few more boners:
- Firing Sam Mitchelle in an obvious and shamefull attempt to make the point that it was the coaching and not the Roster that was the problem
- Stating publicly that the Kapono signing indirectly dealt with the team’s rebounding deficiency as he would make more shots (paraphrasing – but he actually tried to sell this point… only a small feable minded child or a simpleton could make a point like that with a straight face).
- 2nd round draft choices: Drafting that Greek bumb (can’t even be bothered to remember his name) and Nathan Jawai
Amongst others…
But to be fair, I don’t fault BC for not trading CB4. I can’t see how he could have done that at the time and survived. In all honesty, I wouldn’t ahve done it in his place.
I fault him for failing to put NBA talent around CB4. Whether it was Marco Bellinelli, Jamario Moon, Linas Kleiza, Bargani, Anthony Parker or even the beloved Garbo, it just seemed like BC was more interested in finding the diamond in the rough (and then being hailed as the smartest guy in the room) than aquiring legit NBA talent. In over 4 years, with all the resources available to him when he signed (#1 pick, cap space etc.) he couldn’t bring in anyone who was even close to sniffing an All-Star spot. You don’t win in this league without legit NBA talent.
Polarized fanbase
Raptors fans are always so polarized. We have seen countless debates over the years:
TJ vs. Jose
For Smitch/Against Smitch
Bargnani haters vs. “apologists”
This year’s issue to polarize ourselves over seems to be For/Against Colangelo. For the wishy-washy middle-grounders like myself it is hard to avoid getting sucked into the “us vs. them” vortex of doom. I guess that’s just life as a Raptors fan. Love it or leave it.
Clearly, those points must have been wrong ;)
by dhackett1565 on Jul 20, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Who cares about the past
Thank god this terrible signing fell through. Somebody take the keys away from Colangelo until he gets sobre…
I like the off season so far… just trade Calderone for a Centre and life is good. I want this team to dunk and block it’s way to the worst record in the league… and we just might do it!
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by Humble Dragons on Jul 20, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
bosh
its funny how some of us on here are now saying bc should have traded bosh, he aint resigning here, etc. etc. its easy to say that now that what we’ve seen happen and hes in miami but there was no way he was going to trade bosh and why? at the time b4 heading into the allstar break the raps were one of the hottest teams in the league even during the allstar media interviews bosh was pretty clear cut when to reporters saying why not have guys come play in toronto instead of me going elsewhere, i mean bosh had a hand in recruiting hedo to come to toronto so to say bc was just out signing guys left and right to try and keep bosh well duh hes the gm trying to do whatever he could to keep his francise player in town any gm would have done the same thing.all this hedo bashing is well deserve but i aint gonna bash him cause of his play making skills cause what was the thing the raps needed that we hadnt had since VC left a wng who could create for himself and others and isnt scared to take a winning shot when needed..i was 1 of the ones that LIKED the signing not for the amount even i thought it was alil too much but he was by far the best free agent out there so why not swing for the fences and see what happens if he got here..a player that won most improve in the league, has taken game winning shots, and last year in the playoffs who was the magics best player? not nelson, not dwight it was hedo..hedo didnt work out good here but at least we have a gm who tries to hit a homerun and make this team as competitive as possible if he fails at least i could live with the effort instead of sitting around and doing nothing while other teams are improving around him.
BC had to do everything in his power to keep bosh
no way toronto would trade him before his deal ended unless bosh said so, which unfortunately now wasnt the case. bosh hasnt made up his mind so bc had to do everything to keep him. the signing of hedo was a pricey and a huge risk, but it had to be done. he was the best free agent out there. i remember bosh saying to the media before when hedo was on the magic that he thought hedo should have been an all-star, obviously BC noticed bosh liked him, and the signing showed bosh that BC was going to put talent around him which only helps in trying to convince bosh to stay.
now if BC didnt sign any big free-agent but just complimetary players, how much of that would show bosh that BC was trying to build a winner. truth is it wouldnt and most likely made bosh believe BC wasnt trying enough to build a winner. ya, it proably would’ve been a better idea to sign cheaper and younger players who compliment the team better than hedo but BC had to show some passion in trying to retain its franchises’ player. it would’ve been a risk too as maybe the team would have been worse so BC at least tried to swing for the big one. its easy to critize now because of how things just fell apart but you cant deny that BC had to do everything to retain its most marketable and all time in records player in bosh.
As the GM it is his responsibility to do what is best for the team and Bosh can shove it if he doesn’t like it. What is going to do, ruin the reputation of the Raptors by trading him away? The issue is he needed to sus out Bosh’s intentions and his reluctance to sign an extension should have sent warning bells to BC and company that something might be in the wind. Remember last year when we were saying that he should trade him while he could get more value from Bosh than a sign-n-trade would net? Guess what? Giving BC a walk on this is being way too gentle. I for one think he messed the situation up and I can no longer trust him to run the Raptors. At the end of the day, it comes down to this: If I am wrong it is no big deal, the Raptors get better, BC starts making the correct moves, no harm no foul. If all the BC defenders are wrong you get the Leafs during the Ballard era. Is that a risk you want to take?
Is that a risk you want to take?
How is any other GM we may hire not a similar risk? BC had a fantastic reputation coming here – regardless of how he may have earned it.
Any GM the Raptors bring in will be brought in on reputation only. As such – we could get the Ballard Era Leafs either way.
Better the enemy you know than the one you don’t. (Although I think that may be overstating it a bit). At least we know, and have seen, that BC can adjust, correct mistakes, and actually seems to be taking this team in a direction most of us like. Why take the crapshoot chance of a new GM working out, when our current one finally appears to be?
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Correcting mistakes with other mistakes is not something I desire in a GM. I know everyone makes mistakes and my demands may seem unfair but it is what it is. I expect more from BC’s time here than a sub .500 overall record.
I’m just saying: the ‘risk’ you referred to is omnipresent. I think BC has shown that he is at least a capable enough GM to avoid the fate of said Leafs, so I don’t think the risk is there.
He may make terrible contract decisions, but he never gets trapped by them. I can’t say the same for the next GM, simply because that’s a total unknown.
I’m not saying someone else couldn’t be better – of course they could. But, personally, I’d rather keep BC here than let Peddie et al get their mitts further back into the decision making process – which is sure to happen when they hire on a rookie GM after BC is canned – since their high-cost golden boy didn’t work out, why would they bother to hire another high-cost GM?
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Avoiding the same fate as the Leafs, as in finishing the season not good enough for the playoffs but not bad enough to get a good draft pick? That doesn’t sound like the Raptors at all.
2 playoff appearances in 4 years. 1 top ten pick. So 1 year out of 4 would fall under that category in my opinion.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and that was this year, where the Raps lost Bosh for 15 games near the end and missed the playoffs by a single game.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
And the year that Bosh walked. Making the playoffs and losing to a lower seed NJ in 6 and then losing in 5 to Orlando hardly means much. At the end of the day, he has had 1 above .500 year while he has been here. What possible excuse could you have for that?
Bosh was walking regardless.
He’s had 1 above 500, two roughly 500, and one below 500 season. Who am I making excuses for? I’ve just been stating facts that refute your suggestions that the Raptors are anywhere near as embarrassing as the Leafs.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
there are only a handfull of good General managers in this league and i would argue colangelo is one of the better ones
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 21, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh and draft pick
Just want to make the point that Bosh’s terrible play in the last portion of the season which help the Raptors slide out of playoff contention also saved the team’s draft pick. If Bosh already knew he was going to leave the team then in a round-about way he did the Raptors a favour by performing so poorly down the stretch. Imagine if Bosh knew he was going to go to Miami and busted his butt to make sure that the Raptors made the playoffs because he wanted Miami to get the Raps pick. Wouldn’t that have been a kick in the nuts!!
The above is all b.s. speculation, btw.
One more nail in the BC coffin
From SI.com -
“• Raptors re-sign Amir Johnson to a five-year, $34 million deal
Just 23, Johnson has intriguing potential. The 6-foot-9 power forward was one of the Raptors’ few quality defenders last season — according to 82games.com, Toronto’s opponents scored eight fewer points per 100 possessions when he was on the court than when he sat. He also shot 63.8 percent from the field, albeit in short stints (he averaged only 17.7 minutes), and in part because of his limited range.
And that’s the rub: The Raptors are gambling a lot of money on a player with a limited sample size who doesn’t seem like a great fit in terms of their needs. More specifically, Johnson has “played” five NBA seasons, but languished on the bench early in the tenure with Detroit and has just 3,291 career minutes — the equivalent of slightly more than one season for a solid NBA starter. While he plays the same position as the departed Chris Bosh, he lacks Bosh’s bulk (he’s listed at just 210 pounds), not an ideal situation because the Raptors are committed at center to Andrea Bargnani, a sweet shooter but not a physical presence. Toronto also used its top draft pick on a thin power forward, 6-10 Ed Davis of North Carolina.
Scant experience and the prospect of an undersized front court with Johnson and Bargnani make giving Johnson a healthy raise and a long deal seem overly pricey. Didn’t the Raptors learn their lesson overpaying Hedo Turkoglu?"
This is actually the prevailing attitude across the net to Johnson’s new contract. I fully acknowledge that Johnson could turn into the kind of player that so many of you think he will but the risk was unnecessary. That is all I am saying.
No such thing as a necessary risk. There’s always a choice. If BC’s style is to lock up his young players to seemingly pricey contracts with the hope (and expectation, I can only assume) that they outplay their contract down the road – then that’s his style.
And I think it works for him.
Best case: players outperfom their contracts. Yay!
Worst case: players are overpaid – in this case BC’s true skill comes out. We’ve seen over-the-hill veterans on big contracts moved for useful pieces with similar or even cap-space-saving contracts. Why wouldn’t he be able to move an overpaid young player as easily as he moved a ridiculously overpaid Hedo or Kapono?
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
again with the amir contract
didnt you just witness that every other FA this summer was grossly overpaid. its not only BC. every other gm is doing it. apparently its the new thing to do. so get used to it.
Blogging… flogging… coincidence? I think not.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 21, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
(Discovery Channel)
It’s more like flogging a dead girraffe – where one tries to ‘kill it’ for the second time – and then upon realizing that (apart from James Bond all girraffe’s only live once) so the flogger either: a) cries over spilt girraffe milk or; b) fouls the carcass of the dead girraffe by defecating on it and snarling at anybody who even looks twice at the pitifully flogged (allegedly twice killed) girraffe.
This is a common behavior shared by humans and hyena’s when dealing with tall stories…
Jenge...
WTF man… Your posts have been getting progressively stranger over the last little while. Time to get back on the meds brother.
I got a question
now that Hedo’s agent is the suns GM is he still Hedo’s agent ?
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 21, 2010 1:03 PM EDT reply actions
Hedo won’t need another agent for 4 years.
Then that fool will be run out of town after Nash is retired and Phoenix has been sick of Hedo for 3+ years.
The final final final proof that BC should go.
Trailblazers – Made Playoffs, didn’t lose franchise player. GM Fired.
Suns – Made Conference finals and took eventual champ to 6 games before losing. Did lose a franchise player to FA. GM Fired. (pretending that owner isn’t idiot for hiring anyone who would talk to Hedo Turkoglu let alone trade for him).
Cleveland Cavaliers – Made second round of playoffs lost to the team who should have won if not for Perkins injury. GM had felt enough shame to resign.
Toronto – Business as usual.
Hardly proof, let alone the final final final one.
What other teams do with their GMs should have little impact on what the Raptor’s brass should do regarding BC.
I suspect that BC’s job is safe for at least a couple more seasons although definitely the bloom is off the rose. I suspect that the 2011-12 team will need to have a winning record and that the 2012-13 team will need to win at least one playoff series. If BC is a good GM, he should be able to achieve that. If not, he’ll deserve to go.
So why am I willing to give him two more years than McGateway? Simply, I believe that you should give a GM more than just 4 years (or two coaches) to do his job.
I’m not so sure we see BC back next season – he’s in a lame duck situation right now. MLSE may not want him back, or he may not want to come back after missing the playoffs.
The only bright spot is that MLSE isn’t paying 2 GMs simultaneously.
BC will be here for as long as he wants. Until the Raptors start losing money, MLSE will hold tight to him – and he’s shown that he can make money. As McGateway is so fond of saying, the Raps have had one winning record over the last 4 years. And yet, the seats are full, and the money’s rolling in.
And BC has said (recently even) that he wants to stay.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 22, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Congrats to Rich Cho for being the new Blazers GM. A Presti prodigy who inherits Pritchards old job. The blogosphere world must be pleasuring themselves as we speak.
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