All aboard the Colangelo bus once more?
Bryan Colangelo, the Tasmanian Devil in GM form, is at it again.
According to Doug Smith of the Toronto Star, "the Raptors are shipping out Hedo Turkoglu, Jose Calderon and one other piece not yet confirmed and getting back Leandro Barbosa of the Phoenix Suns, Boris Diaw and possibly Tyson Chandler from the Charlotte Bobcats."
The Score's Holly MacKenzie is also reporting that the expiring contract of Reggie Evans could be included in said deal as well.
While things have yet to be confirmed, hard not to be excited about this proposed idea at the least from a salary perspective.
The deal would mean Toronto wouldn't have to touch the $14.5M trade exception it obtained from the Chris Bosh sign-and-trade, and Tyson Chandler's mammoth $13M per season contract expires after next year, giving Toronto in conjunction with some other expiring deals, a big chunk of cap space for the 2010-11 off-season.
From a basketball perspective as well, a healthy Tyson Chandler would be a huge boost for this club, both allowing Andrea Bargnani to play the 4, and giving the "help defensively-challenged" former first overall pick some much needed shot-blocking assistance.
The loss of Jose stings to a certain extent as Jarrett Jack now becomes the team's top playmaker, but in ridding themselves of both Calderon and Turkoglu's over-sized financial commitments, it paves the way for much more future flexibility.
Keep it locked to the HQ and we'll keep the updates coming as soon as we get them...
about 1 month ago
RaptorsHQ - Franchise
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is there any Cap specialist around?
How are Diaw, Barbosa and Chandler contract set up? how much of that TPE can now be spent without going into Tax territory?
Salary before move: ~61.5 million (including Kleiza, Johnson approximations – details not released)
Outgoing: Hedo, Jose, Evans (assumed) = 23.88 million
Incoming: Barbosa, Diaw, TC = 7.1+9+12.6 = 28.7 million (fits into 125% requirement for trades)
So: New salary = 61.5 + 4.82 = ~66.3 million leaves roughly 5 million of space before tax.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 12, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Make that roughly 4 million.
Of course, outgoing contracts could allow a much bigger trade.
by dhackett1565 on Jul 12, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey Franchise
you haven’t yet removed Hedo countdown, are you superstitious?
Until the trade is official, it’s hard to make a concrete judgment in relation to the trades. And as much as what Calderon and Turkoglu brought to the table offensively; it’s arguable that they were the two most defensive liabilities in their respective positions on the Raptors. From the rumors out there, the trades looks like an upgrade which really supports that mentality B.C. wants to contend as oppose to rebuild. Still feel like there’s more trades on the way as crazy as it sounds
YAY
no more doom and gloom posts.
i agree about Chandler – last decent true center we had was the corpse of Hakeem
oh I wouldn’t count on no doom and gloom.. Raps fans will find something. Wait until they actually watch Barbossa play this year.
fair enough
but i rather be at least a bit excited that our summer league team destroyed the Suns
I’d rather have Kevin Willis than that corpse
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Mea Culpas?
Am I the only one who thinks the BC haters have some egg to wipe off their faces?
If this goes down, its exactly the kind of moves the team needed. Out with the bad, in with good, and keep our TPE and 1st rnd picks.
Now all we need is for Bargs to stick it hard and good to BargsBust once and for all and my schadenfreude will be epic.
I don't think its a matter of wiping egg off their face.
Rather a lesson in patience….
(although I guarantee that to some it won’t matter…. BC is the devil)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
no truer word spoken
BC makes deals every year, gets the fans really excited and come game 40 we are wondering why the team is so garbage.
BC knows enough that around these parts, you make a few deals, the fans love you and you’re signing a 4 year contract extension by the end of the week.
by stretch bigman on Jul 12, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
you skipped the most important part
thats the part about patience
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
So, based on what we know so far, BC has done some decent work to extricate the franchise from the mess he himself created. He has taken a few years off of some onerous contracts. However, until we know what happens to the TPE I will hold judgement, because at the moment, we are pretty much in the same position we were yesterday, capped out and out of the playoffs. Are these deals a step in the right direction? Yes, so credit where credit is due. But hard to do handstands for the guy who is perpetually cleaning up his own messes.
But hard to do handstands for the guy who is perpetually cleaning up his own messes.
True.
BC was aggressive and tried to upgrade the team. It didn’t work. If he can manage to clear out those messes and get back to the starting blocks, good for him. But there has to be some accountability.
Gotta play 'em, might as well win 'em.
Let’s not forget that Bosh called Turkoglu and tried to get him to ditch the Blazers and sign with us. He was also VERY excited about swapping Ford for JO and believed that he would have more room to roam playing beside JO. He did have his fingerprints all over those moves as well if we recall. So its not like BC was making moves independent of his franchise player. Yet, he is the only one being blamed for signing these players or making these moves. If these (present) trades come to pass, it will be another example of BC making what seem like good moves at the present time. Hindsight is 20/20 and for all we know these moves don’t pan out. The point is that BC was kind of handcuffed into making moves to please CB4. Now let’s see what he can do for the Raps without a “franchise” player to please. In addition, I am not suggesting that I have agreed with all of his moves (i.e., Kapono and Jones), but for the most part he was trying to build a team around Bosh.
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh Then, Bargs Now
.
Apparently BC is now consulting with Andrea.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 12, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
If he truly was handcuffed by Bosh then wouldn’t only further the argument that the Raptors should move on? Ultimately, Bosh isn’t the one who has to face the music and even if he did have a hand in the signings, it does diminish BC’s (who is the final authority in such manners) culpability. As the old saying goes, the buck stops here and BC is the here.
This is the argument I’ve been making for over a week now. Your top exec takes is accountable for the overall success of the franchise. If CB4 was truly “running the franchise” as Assistant GM is contending, that is even MORE concerning and a damning perspective on Colangelo.
Running the Show
.
You mean running it, like Lebron, Wade, Pierce (who was gonna leave), Kobe ……..
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 12, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Guys, many GM’s consult their star/“franchise” players before making moves. This shouldn’t surprise anybody! Many people are arguing that BC screwed up in making these moves and this is why we lost CB4. I am simply stating that if we are to blame BC for making these moves, shouldn’t we also be holding Bosh accountable for also lacking vision and foresight into these said moves and not being able to assess the talent that he is approving coming in?
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh Then, Bargs Now
.
Hey AGm … just having a little fun. Too much serious discussion over “maybes”.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 12, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
RapthoseLeafs, no offense was taken. I have to admit the Bargs Now bit does give me the shivers though :)
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t even about vindication.. I started my “crusade” last week because of the over reaction to everything BC. This is a lesson in understanding NBA economics, which is very clear that most do not.
Exactly one week ago today, here and in several conversations, I said I was 90% sure we’d be out of the Hedo/Jose contracts before the season started for minimal collateral and was laughed at. I didn’t expect it so soon.. but… as Nelson Muntz would say Ha-Ha.
The funny thing is.. I’m more against the BC moves now than last week. I don’t hate them outright, but it’s not exactly my cup of tea. Obviously with more to come.
Until we see what happens.
The point is that that at the end of the season BC finds himself in the same predictament. He then has to make miracles happen to get the fans excited about the coming season. This doesn’t negate that complaints that the fans were making. Everyone is getting excited about getting rid of Hedo, but who signed him promising sucess? This all serves as a distraction from the root issues. I’ll wait and see what happens this year, but if it is similar to last year, you will get the same complaints and rants. Not because we have a personal issue with BC, but because the complaints are warranted.
I'd wait
and see how the moves affect the team before judging how good the trade is, but from the looks of it it seems like a very good trade for the Raptors. I’m eating some crow right now on BC after this move, but remember that he was the one that dug the hole in the first place. Right now, all he’s mostly done was get himself out of the hole.
Colangelo has always been very good with trades. His problems lies with overpaying free agents.
If the FAs were so overpaid, why are other teams taking them? Again.. everyone uses relative theory (and poorly might I add) but not market theory.
The biggest problem with people in general we are all susceptable to in Psychology Confirmation Bias. Which is my biggest beef. If we were truly logical we could devoid of it, but that was the gist of my complaint last week… more and more everything moved to Confirmation Bias.
let me clarify..
I said “X” so everything that I post from now on will be on supporting “X” and lets ignore everything that goes against “X”.
We all do it.. but the best writers will consciously try and go against it.
“If the FAs were so overpaid, why are other teams taking them?”
You seriously believe they’re not overpaid? Have you seen Turkoglu play this season? Calderon the last 2 seasons? What they’re doing is taking a risk on these players.
Listen.. if it was my pocket books.. I wouldn’t give $15 dollars to play for my team, but if 5 or 6 other people all want to pay him $10 M, that’s what he’s worth. That’s exactly what I mean about NBA economics.
Ok.. let’s try one more time. Let say I sign Mike James for $200 KB (Kabillion dollars) for a 100 year contract. Sure, that sounds like a pretty bad deal. But if only the Knicks and the Bulls would like to trade for him for either Joakim Noah, or worse case scenario Eddie Curry, the value of the contract is bad, but it’s still okay because I can move him. Now if I can move Mike James for a lower value contract like Barbossa, I lose an asset yes, but that means the value of the contract is even better than say a Eddie Curry in return.
So.. If Hedo = Barbossa, or Calederon = Chandler = not great FA value, but it’s not the worse thing since the G20. I don’t care if his contract was for 50 years.
“I wouldn’t give $15 dollars to play for my team, but if 5 or 6 other people all want to pay him $10 M, that’s what he’s worth. That’s exactly what I mean about NBA economics.”
Teams were overpaying him because 2009 was a very weak FA pool, and Turkoglu had a good performance in the playoffs that year. Just because other teams valued him that highly doesn’t mean he wasn’t overpaid.
“Ok.. let’s try one more time. Let say I sign Mike James for $200 KB (Kabillion dollars) for a 100 year contract. Sure, that sounds like a pretty bad deal. But if only the Knicks and the Bulls would like to trade for him for either Joakim Noah, or worse case scenario Eddie Curry, the value of the contract is bad, but it’s still okay because I can move him. Now if I can move Mike James for a lower value contract like Barbossa, I lose an asset yes, but that means the value of the contract is even better than say a Eddie Curry in return.
So.. If Hedo = Barbossa, or Calederon = Chandler = not great FA value, but it’s not the worse thing since the G20. I don’t care if his contract was for 50 years."
So.. If Hedo = Barbossa, or Calederon = Chandler = not great FA value, but it’s not the worse thing since the G20. I don’t care if his contract was for 50 years."Every contract is tradeable. Even Vernon Wells’ contract isn’t totally untouchable, though the chances of him getting traded are slim. Just that you won’t always get a good return for the bad contracts. Colangelo got real lucky with this situation and took advantage of it.
“Every contract is tradeable. Even Vernon Wells’ contract isn’t totally untradeable, though the chances of him getting traded are slim. Just that you won’t always get a good return for the bad contracts. Colangelo got real lucky with this situation and took advantage of it.”
Don’t know what happened there.
Aside from the Raptors, its seems only Portland wanted to sign him. Everyone overvalued Turkoglu after his performance in the playoffs in 2009. Also, it was a very weak FA pool, so his value rose even higher.
Go back and check yours. From what I’ve read, the only other team that seemed to be really interested in him was Portland, though Orlando also had interest but didn’t want to overpay him.
Although Blazers ulitmately signed him first, in the race were: The Pacers, Knicks, Bulls, Thunder, and Suns.
The Raps were not even on the radar.
oh and the Pistons.
“The Pistons’ priority this postseason is not Davis, or bringing in a guard like Ben Gordon. The Chicago Sun Times reports Detroit wants former Magic forward Hedo Turkoglu wearing their colors next season.
Turkoglu is expected to receive offers from both the Blazers and Pistons, however Portland is also shopping for a point guard, and may pull out of the Hedo race if they can land a less expensive option at the forward spot." -
“The Raps were not even on the radar.”
What? I definitely remember hearing about the Raptors being in the race for Hedo even right after the NBA season was over. They were in on him.
And there’s probably a reason why many of the teams backed out on him, including the Magic. His demands got too high, and only the Blazers and Raptors were interested in his services.
Heads I Win Tales You Lose
So first its only a few teams were interested in Hedo, now its, ‘ok, a lot of teams were interested in Hedo, but his high demands drove the others away’.
So what starts as a premise of ‘we went after a guy not many other people wanted’ becomes ‘we went after a guy a lot of other people wanted, but then paid too much for him’.
Whats the opposite of wearing rose coloured glasses?
He was overpaid is what I’m saying. He was lucky to get a good contract because the FA pool that summer was extremely poor, and obviously I was mistaken into believing that few teams would be interested. In fact, many teams should be interested, but many of them aside from Portland and Toronto didn’t agree with his demands and backed-out.
Better?
Frag.. yes better but still not 100% accurate.
Frag.. yes better but still not 100% accurate.Many teams wanted to be involved but couldn’t because they were out of cap and needed a S&T. Orlando had orginally said no to most S&T deals.
Frag.. yes better but still not 100% accurate.Many teams wanted to be involved but couldn’t because they were out of cap and needed a S&T. Orlando had orginally said no to most S&T deals.This is what I mean about NBA economics. The reason this year’s FA market is nuts is because of a rarity in terms of how many teams were able to make a play, but then also the quality of the FA.
Frag.. yes better but still not 100% accurate.Many teams wanted to be involved but couldn’t because they were out of cap and needed a S&T. Orlando had orginally said no to most S&T deals.This is what I mean about NBA economics. The reason this year’s FA market is nuts is because of a rarity in terms of how many teams were able to make a play, but then also the quality of the FA.Last year, there were fewer FAs but also fewer teams with cap space. It doesn’t mean they didn’t want Hedo. It means more deals would have been complicated. SO then you have to project forward in which many people knew this year’s FA prices would be sky rocketing. Hedo’s contract was negotiated accordingly as the #1 FA.
Frag.. yes better but still not 100% accurate.Many teams wanted to be involved but couldn’t because they were out of cap and needed a S&T. Orlando had orginally said no to most S&T deals.This is what I mean about NBA economics. The reason this year’s FA market is nuts is because of a rarity in terms of how many teams were able to make a play, but then also the quality of the FA.Last year, there were fewer FAs but also fewer teams with cap space. It doesn’t mean they didn’t want Hedo. It means more deals would have been complicated. SO then you have to project forward in which many people knew this year’s FA prices would be sky rocketing. Hedo’s contract was negotiated accordingly as the #1 FA.Babby isn’t an idiot.. everyone knew Hedo was going to get a giant payhike, whether you think it’s right or not. And today, as I keep saying, not a great contract (yes mildly over paid), but still a movable one. Which thusly makes it market value. I consider overvalued contracts ones you can’t move (i.e. Banks).
It’s a good move, yes in that it cuts off long-term commitments (though adds a bit in the short term) and the players acquired are more slightly useful to us than what went out.
However, BC’s already dug himself a massive hole which he is nowhere near to out of. The franchise is in far worse shape than when he inherited it.
The other part of this deal worth noting is that none of these players will be key contributors to a Raptor run at the top. If/when this trade goes down, we’re still basically running on a treadmill – just in slightly more pleasant conditions than a week ago.
@ which part was the franchise better when he inherited it? The biggest mistake he’s made IMO was when he improved the team with Parker and Garbo right away as that changed expectations.
Yes with what guard and what centre back then? There were massive gaps.. and when I mean massive, I mean a team that didn’t even have a name on a piece of paper to play those positions.
As of today, you have young pieces, upcoming expiring contracts and a TPE = to Bosh, and well, maybe a #1 pick next year.
Usually, when you have cap space, you don’t have players because they would be taking up that space. It’s an either/or situation. Cap space is preferable for a rebuilding team over simply having a guy who can play but isn’t a good long-term fit.
Colangelo started out without commitments. It isn’t hard to take overpaid players off of teams’ hands like Rasho. I’m sure any of us could have done the same.
Also, you seem to think that we are better off with this roster than what we had before because it has no holes. But you make it a point that we’re going to have a chance at the #1. Is this because we’re a lottery team? Or because we’re going to be one of the league’s real stinkers? And if it’s the second, why is it an accomplishment to fill a roster with players who will lose far more games than they will win?
As someone said above, AB is our most tenured Raptor. This team was put together by Colangelo’s hands. Are you actually happy with it?
Happy per se? Not necessarily. Cautiously optimistic.. sure. Do I think this team will be in contention next year? Absolutely not. Do I hope we get a high draft pick? Yes.
So if it’s so bad, where’s the hope? It lies within when some of these players will peak. I think Davies and Alabi will peak 3 to 4 years from now, but there’s some optimisim that players like Weems, DeMar and Johnson can only get better and hopefully do the same in 2 to 3 years. If all these players peak at the same time, would that make us contenders?? Not necessarily, however, that’s when we’ll free up salary space. And hopefully by then, we would have added a legit draft talent, and then go out and sign a vet at that time and compete for 2013.
I’m under no pretention this will be done by 2012, but the cycles are now pointing at 2013.
Bigger home-coming ovation - Bosh or Calderon?
Calderon is the Anti-Carter as far as i’m concerned
I will proudly wear his jersey upon his return.
Can we all agree right now NOT to give Turk the Carter treatment?
Uhm... That is a capitan Obvious statement
Every time you express a preference you habe a bias = your preference….
Calderon
As much as I didn’t like the guy’s defense, he was still #1 for me for a few years.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey welcome to the chat, thought you were choking on the crow you were eating...
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Unlike others
I have a life to attend to.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Turk
If anything Turk deserves the Carter treatment more than Carter himself. I’m not a fan of booing in general, but if anyone deserves it, it’s Hedo.
Oh yeah…
That’ll be a big thing going. But can you imagine? That’s going to be one messed up crowd…
HUGE cheers for Nash.
HUGE boos for Turk.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
If any one deserves teh "Carter treatment" It's Turk...
In fact I hope Raptors fans lay down the sword when it comes to Carter and focus all of their venom on Turk
Now we need a PG
If we can pry Collison or Rubio will be in great shape !!!
Acronym for RAPTORS = RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally
by RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally on Jul 12, 2010 2:05 PM EDT reply actions
i personally like Banks, hes a good defender because of football player like shoulders (yeah i just said that…)
although his offence might not be the greatest, i can see this team becoming a run and gun offence with good outside shooters like Kleiza and bargs
Fan of :
Toronto Raptors
Arizona Cardinal
Kansas Jayhawks
I wonder
If BC regrets the offer made to Kleiza…
no
i think bc got kleiza cause he knew he was gonna ship out turk.
kleiza signing looks better after this trade, not worse.
by orandegadsden'shands on Jul 12, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Thinking that Andrea is now the longest serving Raptor
Make me hope this franchise sees some stability you do not win a championship one revolution per year (the Celts being the exception confirming the rule)
Andrea is now the longest serving Raptor
I just simultaniouslysoiled myself and threw up in my mouth…
Don't you finud it funny that to speak about Utrk / Barbosa, the NBA Raptors page
has to refer to the “Arizona Republic”?
Jose
I’m going to miss Jose ‘Bubbling’ Calderon. Yes, he may be overpaid, but it was nice to watch someone who played with a little fire and who brought it every night.
I was cheering for Spain yesterday because of him. Jose should definitely get a standing ovation when he comes back.
OH HELL YES
Chandler confirms his move to the raptors
http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/18370326754
THANKS A LOT......!!!!!
I keep hoping this deal dosen’t go thru…o well. A healthy barbs is fun to watch. and he’s a personalty up grade 4 u. i don’t know that u want diaw (game is a lot like turks…spotty)…good luck barbosa…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvh1EM7MTdg
"I DON'T EAT DAWG EITHER"...."A dawgs got personality, personality goes a long way."
by Mace Windu
Well...
goodbye cheese pizza….hello sheep singing
Love Always Shines Everytime Remember 2 Smile - Lupe Fiasco
by L.A.S.E.R.S. on Jul 12, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
trust us
we aren’t stoked on Diaw – i think the most of us expect him coming off the bench with the raptors starting derzon or kleiza or weems ahead of him.
dont get wrong
diaw a good player just frustratingly inconsitant
"I DON'T EAT DAWG EITHER"...."A dawgs got personality, personality goes a long way."
by Mace Windu
don't get "me" wrong
standerd reply fail
"I DON'T EAT DAWG EITHER"...."A dawgs got personality, personality goes a long way."
by Mace Windu
Diaw is a great player
He just frustrates fans (Bobcats fan here) because he doesn’t play like a typical power forward, and he sometimes seems to not care. He’s not going to block shots and will rarely dunk. What you get is a “point forward”… meaning the guy can handle the ball, pass really well, can score well in the paint, and some years shoot (even the 3). I’d say his perimeter shot is the only thing that is inconsistent. Sometimes he can’t hit a thing. But also don’t be surprised if he even wins a game on a last second 3.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So basically Hedo
But hopefully not as much of a dick
Young Players
I’m wondering how this move affects minutes for Weems and Derozan. After watching the summer league game and hearing Triano say he’d like to ease Davis into the NBA game, I’m assuming similar game plan (minus the starts) to Derozan, around 20min for the duration of the season. However if the Raptors now have Kleiza and Diaw, I would hope that Triano tries to play Derozan and Weems a good amount of minutes to continue their development.
I’m really starting to dislike the Amir Johnson signing because of Diaw’s flexibility as an SF/PF player. Bargnani will fit in well at PF, and with Chandler at C, it’ll be hard to see how Johnson’s minutes are played out. This however does provide the excellent opportunity to maybe get an asset by trading Chandler’s expiring contract, since its highly unlikely Raptors can lure upper tier free agents to Toronto in the following off season.
At least this is the end of the Calderon-Jack backcourt thank god, and Turk is out. This is awesome. Triano better not split min again with Jack/Barbosa however, just pick one starter and stick to him.
Chandler
is not a 30min + player
Johnson and him will almost split minutes evenly.
Because its a medical fact that Chandler’s ankle is in bad shape (that is why OKC killed their deal). Splitting minutes with Johnson makes sense (Johnson isn’t a real center however so I am not sure how that works either) in theory.
He'll hop around on one leg in a contract year...
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Redeemed?
Not quite sure if this redeemds BC from the likes of marion, evans, o’neal, kapono, however, it is a great start! I think this deal aside from the flexibility is vital to the next few seasons in toronto because we can see what bargnani can do at the 4! Also Tyson Chandler when healthy is an impact player, he averaged 8.7 boards or more, even over 12 one season when he got minutes and was healthy. This will help bargnani drastically and the difference between him and bosh, bosh would chase down boards from around the ft line chandler is around teh basket, clogging up the lane. He has also averaged over a block a game his entire career and is a presense in the paint. He should help bargnani drastically around the hoop. On top of that this is a contract year, where he is getting 13 mill, do not think he doesnt want to prove his worth and at worst he comes off the books next season.
As for Diaw and Barbosa I like the blend of talent it gives us, while barbosa is not a true pg he can dispell jack to the bench for 10minutes a game, and he also only has two years left on the contract. It also gives us some explosvieness off the bench. As for Diaw it just gives us a different look off the bench, a player who can play the highpost, pass, shoot, board handle the ball a little. A good player to play alongside barbosa to help with the ball handling. But once again only two years left on his contract. I think something improtant we are all overlooking, there could be a strike in the nba after next off-season. If there is suddenly these contracts are not as big.
While I do not think we are a contender in the east with this lineup, it does leave us an opportunity to develop our youth! (Chandler is still 28). If you check out the link below, we dont have amir or kleiza on there but our cap would be 21 million plus them so approximately 30million. Leaving us plenty of room to make a move or two. Signing those players in another story but it gives us flexibility which is the key in the new nba.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm
Question: Ive read that Kleiza’s contract is front loaded is this the same as amir?
no need to frontload Amir, no one could match him, he is our FA
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
only if we keep him, otherwise it being a higher number when it expires is more useful
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Loving the Silence...
Wow, Defensive Stance and VD, no pompous and aloof statements explaining to us ‘non-fans’ why BC is the worst GM ever? No demanding that we try to lose all our games so that we stand a better chance at the lotto?
Every year there is a team that has been crap for ages that improves and everyone says that is the model that must be followed. This year it was OK, in the past it has been Chi, GS, Atlanta – there are more teams that haven’t had success by sucking than teams that have totally benfitted from it. Bold statement, but lets see. I also said earlier this summer that the Raps might even be better without CB4, I am feeling better about that promise now! Not because we are great, just because we sucked before.
Our talent has never really meshed well. We have long lacked D, smart ballers and grit and it seems we have gained that in almost every move this off season. I know BC has made a lot of moves in previous off seasons, but at the time, they all seemed to make sense. I liked the JO trade at the time, TJ had to go and we got a decent asset. Last year’s off season we gained a lot of depth that we lacked in the previous year. I can’t fault BC for trying. The only real constant over the years has been Bosh, but heaven forbid we say anything about him!
Each year, the moves BC has made seem to make sense at the time and all these armchair GM’s ripping him with 20-20 hindsight has been irritating to say the least. I know all these recent moves may not work out and we need to actually play the games, but today I am going to love the silence of the usual suspects while they eat crow. Hopefully they can just try to actually enjoy a team that is good, plays hard, plays D – even if they don’t win the ship!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
Do you really want to hear from my half empty side?
This is the first year in a while where I’ve felt more confident about the trades going through. And although I am extremely happy to have smaller contracts at fewer years, I’m not going to say that BC has completely vindicated himself. I like Barbosa, I liked Diaw when we could have had him for TJ Ford. I also like Chandler if he’s healthy, but don’t mind it so much since we didn’t give up the trade exemption and also will be divested of his contract by next year, making him valuable by this year’s trade deadline.
But I am not going to apologize for everything that has happened up until now. These are situations of BC’s own creation and to say that this all vindicates him, is too much. We didn’t and shouldn’t have had to be in a situation where we just lost our franchise player in order to get these assets. At the end of the day, we lost a 20 point, 10 rebound, free throw machine and that still doesn’t change.
PS – I don’t reply because today is my day off, and I’m off with my girlfriend spending time with her. I just have a moment away NOW to write about this.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Your cup sounds pretty full to me.
BC doesn’t need to vindicate himself to me anyways, so if he hasn’t vindicated himself in your eyes, that is because you have buried him in a very, very deep hole. I know all his moves weren’t perfect (FA’s Turk and Kaps) but no GM bats 1.000. I made reference to it in my first post, but it might be the beloved ‘franchise player’ that we lost, which you deem so unforgiveable, may not be such a big loss as you think. This is the first year CB4 tried to be a post player, and he only did it in the first half. He hasn’t made his team mates better, he isn’t a strong leader, his defence is average/below and he was often a black hole on offence. The only extension he ever signed with us was as short as possible to allow this day to come ASAP, and he has earned it.
Don’t get me wrong, CB was a total professional on and off the court, he has several team records and owes us nothing. I just am not so sure he was a player to spend years on trying to build a franchise around. He filled the void when VC left, but was he really ready to? I dunno…
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
BC buried himself in that hole. Its not like Vicious D and Franchise and others held a gun to his head and told to make the moves he made that he is now trying to correct. If this was a one time thing then fine but have gone through this every year he has been here practically. At what point do you say “Enough is enough”? I am happy he is trying to correct the mistakes of the past but there would be no mistakes if he didn’t make them.
There’s no doubt that we all believed that Andrea Bargnani and Bosh would have continued to have trouble co-existing, but that’s a sentiment that we’ve said here for a long time. Nevertheless, one of those two players was the FRANCHISE player, rightly or wrongfully. And whether you agree with that statement, Chris Bosh’s own numbers indicate that he’s a special player. At the very least, your GM should be building around that same franchise player and still should be creating a team that fits his attributes. If he did all that and Chris STILL walked, by all means, we can at least say that we had the right frame of mind, but Bosh simply had decided to go.
Can you say that about Colangelo in his tenure though? I think most of us had Bosh pegged for bolting for the hills for a while because we all thought that regardless if Bosh is a max player, he just didn’t have very good teams during his time in Toronto. That’s why no one could blame him for leaving and I’m sure most people would have even supported him in leaving if he hadn’t made the choice to turn it all into such a spectacle.
Stepping back a bit, I’m not sure how I’ve been “pompous and aloof”… I take that to heart. I have never been as critical about this team as I believe some of my colleagues have been, but at the same time, I’m not sure how I got lumped in with Defensive Stance about his views on this team. I’ve merely been critical of Turkoglu, BC’s track record and all the other stuff that I don’t think can be defensible. My belief has always been to simply just call out this team and hold the correct people accountable. As I’ve stated time and time again, I’ve been the most optimistic of the writers here for quite a while, and to just simply say that we’re being unfair or even arrogant is something I take to heart. Last year, I was the guy that ran over into Golden State of Mind’s territory and vehemently defended Andrea Bargnani for a day after the Marco Belinelli trade for cryin’ out loud. (Much to both Franchise’s and Howland’s amusement actually)
But yeah I am feeling better about this team than I have for quite a long while. We’ve got speed, athleticism, cohesiveness and some manageable contracts. Oh, and a nice trade exemption to boot. There’s no reason in my mind not be happy with how things are unfolding. However, just like before, I am merely evaluating his moves in a step by step process. Others may not like it when we say that we KNEW certain things wouldn’t work out, but Colangelo and time have proven us correct. Just like now, most of us are feeling better about the Raptors as a whole, that’s just because we feel this is the route BC should have gone with for a long time. If you think that makes us arrogant, that’s fine, but at the end of the day, only history and what this club does for the future will determine whether they were the correct choices or not.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair Enough
Maybe I have just been over reacting to the negaativity in general that has been on this site for the past little while. I have been a loyal poster here for years and choose the HQ over any other site, however this is the first time I have found the views expressed at the Republic a little more forgiving than here.
My point is that all of BC’s ‘bone head’ moves didn’t necesarrily seem boneheaded at the time – just as today’s potential moves don’t seem dumb. But if we end up with a lousy team again at the end of next season, I don’t think we can say BC was stupid this off season. These moves all make sense to me right now and so when I evaluate them after the year, I should remember why I liked them. Even the Hedo signing, that was done with an effective sign and trade and netted the Raps several other assets had a degree of brilliance to it that is usually overlooked by the casual fan. Hedo was the best wing available, that was willing to sign with us, and BC did it in a way that somehow created extra cap room for us. The GM can’t predict things that will unfold during the season, but when it comes to making the moves in the off season I think BC has proven himself to be one of the best. I even agree with the theory that you don’t need to be the last place team in the league for several years to become any good, but that is a whole new point.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Something everyone forgets
We have Johnson and Weems because of the Hedo deal.
But our Franchise player was signing off on these deals and was the one reaching out to Turk to diss the Blazers in favour of the Raps. For a guy who never really planned on coming back, Bosh sure did have his fingerprints all over these moves. He was also behind moving TJ for JO, but………..everything was BC’s fault! Everyone blames BC’s moves for Bosh leaving, yet it was Bosh who was approving these moves! Maybe our GM was handcuffed a bit non?
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re going to seriously blame Bosh for this deals? Really?
I know Colangelo has talked with Bosh about the acquisitions, but it’s not like Bosh BROUGHT Turkoglu to Colangelo and said “sign this guy”. In fact, Bosh has repeatedly said that he’s been more hands off about the approach than most people. (For my example, Vince Carter was ultimate in meddling.)
I mean, if you’re going to say that, you might as well say Turk’s signing was also Triano’s fault, Maurizio’s fault, and every single other secondary personnel since Colangelo always said he was a guy that LIKED TO BUILD CONSENSUS.
So NO, our GM was not handcuffed.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
we know Bosh can't be blamed
he already told everyone that nothing was his fault….
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm no! Vicious, Bosh himself stated that he contacted Turkoglu last summer to convince him to come to the Raps and forego the Blazers! That is a fact and I am positive others can back me up on this…Sheesh!
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell, I’ll back you up on it that Turk got called by Bosh to come afterwards when the Raptors had decided to pitch him. This is NORMAL, but hardly that Bosh actively made a decision to bring him to Toronto.
Put it another way, would you say then that because Yao met with Bosh this summer and asked him to come to the Rockets, that he would have been responsible for Bosh going to the Rockets? If you do, then we just have different ideas of who is responsible.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, Yao sent a Bosh a text (before July 1st I might add) telling him that he would like him to sign and that he thinks they would make an excellent frontcourt. Now, I’m sure Morey put him up to it, but the point is, you and I don’t know what went on behind the scenes. What we do know, is that BC openly admitted that he included Bosh in every transaction they made, including getting rid of his boy TJ in favour of Calderon. I don’t object to your way of thinking. All I was trying to point out is that we can’t blame BC completely for the decisions that were made. If BC is saying the truth about Bosh’s involvement, you can see where to a degree his hands were tied. Again, by signing a 4 year with an option to not pick up the 4th, BC had to build a winner on the fly in 3 short years. Vicious, believe me when I say that I never agreed with every transaction he has made.
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don’t think he should shoulder all the blame!
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 10:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ya I agree Bosh had input into all the decision BC made so if he didn’t like anyone he could of said so
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 12, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This is ridiculous. Every GM in the league consults with their players but are under no obligation to follow whatever the player says. A prime example is the Lakers where Kobe Bryant wanted the deal for Jason Kidd but in the end the GM did what he knew was right and took some heat for it but was vindicated in the end.
Creationists
“These are situations of BC’s own creation and to say that this all vindicates him, is too much. We didn’t and shouldn’t have had to be in a situation where we just lost our franchise player in order to get these assets. At the end of the day, we lost a 20 point, 10 rebound, free throw machine and that still doesn’t change.”
I am as big a Bosh fan as the next, and of three amigos in Miami, he is the only one I will cheer for (Wade I am indifferent about – I still feel like he and the refs robbed Dirk of the title, and LeBron is with perhaps the exception of Tiger Woods, the most self absorbed and self important dick on the planet) but its time to face the facts, Bosh earned the opportunity to chase titles with Wade and LeBron all still in their prime – against that opportunity did Toronto ever stand a chance?
Bosh listed Toronto as one of the six teams he would play for – which means the Big Smoke was not being summarily dismissed because he was upset with how Colangelo built the team around him. There was never any acrimony between Bosh and Colangelo – which is what you would expect if BC were to blame for him leaving.
Bosh had said all along he wanted the chance to see what free agency would bring, and it brought a chance to play with the two of the top two best players in the world – not to mention personal friends – and what do you know, he took it.
Far from ‘creating’ this scenario isn’t it in fact unprecedented precisely because none of the GMs in the league have control of three of the top guys in the world?
And if you were a faced with losing Bosh, would you rather have received the package of picks and trade exceptions that we got, or the package that Cleveland got?
I’m not licking BC’s jockstrap just yet (the Kapono thing leaves a mark) , but everybody’s been in a deep panic that we would A: lose Bosh for nothing, B have to suffer through a nasty case of the Turk for as long as four more years, and C. not make any effort to acquire picks, young-upswing players/trade exceptions to rebuild the team with.
Colangelo delivers on; getting stuff for Bosh, delivers on getting the Turk out of town – and for a borderline All-Star no less, and he collects talented youth like Chandler, Amir, Weems, DeRozan, and Bargs to rebuild with.
Not only does our GM not suck, he practically craps diamonds.
Are you really that naive? Bosh had to say that Toronto was one of the teams because of the whole Twitter fiasco. There was always a small chance the Miami could not get the deal done so he had to play nice with Toronto, especially since he needed their help to do a sign and trade. If you believe that these guys were always gonna find a way to sign with each other, then none of the teams on Bosh’s list were viable.
Yeah
Bosh had no intention of signing with the Raptors outside of a sign and trade.
“Our talent has never really meshed well. We have long lacked D, smart ballers and grit and it seems we have gained that in almost every move this off season”.
This is what I’m most excited about. Chandler is a great fit at the 5 and while I’m not the biggest Diaw or Barbosa fans, they both defend and are useful pieces. We also rid ourselves of 2 of the weaker defenders on the team in Turkoglu and Calderon.
It also seems to signify a change in direction from BC. Defense seemed to be an afterthought for Colangelo, so it’s nice to see what (appears to be) a change in strategy. As an armchair GM myself, it’s what I disliked about many of BC’s moves.
Some of BC’s moves in previous years made sense, not all. The Kapono signing and the Turkoglu signings were bad fits from the start and many on this site called it at the time (and I know you know this too because you’ve been posting here for years). Personally, I liked the JO trade at the time but I felt he panicked with the Marion trade then followed it up with the Turk move.
But, with today’s moves I feel like we are moving in the right direction again and BC deserves credit for that.
Are you serious?
The guy made some moves to clear up his previous shitty moves. He’s walking away with an injury-prone Tyson Chandler, a hobbled Barbosa, and an out-of-shape Diaw.
The Turkoglu signing never made any sense. I hated it from the moment it was announced. There was no armchair GM/ripping it in hindsight going on here. So before you call someone out, try not to do so in ignorance.
When the Raptors lose significantly more games than last season, I’ll remember to bring up your own ‘pompous and aloof statements’ about how this is a better team minus Bosh. I think the only people ‘eating crow’ will be the ones who think this team is going to be better next season.
Colangelo gets credit for making the long-term future of this franchise less crappy than it was yesterday. Nothing more.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 12, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
Fans in Toronto have absolutely no patience..The team put together last year was a much deeper team than the year before and a much better one..Bosh got hurt at the wrong time and everyone turned on Hedo..BC has to retool every year because raptor fans have no patience..did you really think that a team that only carried over 3 players from the previous year were going to have a deep playoff run..Plus they had a rookie coach..it was a stepping stone..but you guys seem to miss that point..they were a game away from the playoffs when there best player missed 16 games and was never the same after the injury..but lets blame everything on BC..Fans whine and complain about Hedo and Jose and then he trades them and they still whine and complain..BC is they only good thing you got going and if I were you guys I would be thankful he has not left town.
Actually, this is much more complicated than that. The issue isn’t that the team ultimately failed to make the playoffs, the issue is that our GM has made cakes out of crap and called it chocolate. 3 years ago he added Kapono and said we didn’t need rebounders because we were going to shoot a higher percentage. He called the Oneal team a playoff team and said at one point it was the best roster he had ever put together. Lat season before the first game was played he called the Raptors a 50 win team. You have to expect to be heavily criticized if your fail to meet your own expectations. Most of us knew that last years team wouldn’t make the playoffs and we were almost surprised when they almost made it ( I myself had them pegged at 35 wins) but that doesn’t change the fact that BC had saddled this franchise with too many bad contracts and very little in the way of a plan (or so it seems from the outside). True he is trying to rectify that but at some point you have to think about at what point does BC’s self interest diverge from the best interest in the long term success of the franchise? I think we have hit that point or are very close to it.
Hindsight
is 20-20. I know a lot of folks didn’t like the Hedo signing, but BC did do it in such a way that made room for several other moves, including the Jack signing. To look at one move in isolation, years after it happened isn’t fair. Take a stand on what you think of these current moves now and stick with it, don’t rape BC at the end of the year if the team sucks and pretent like you knew all along it was a bad move. Today, BC has made some good moves, so the BC supporters get their moment in the sun. End of the day, we all want this team to win, I don’t think BC is preventing us from doing so, I think he is making good moves that will help us to do so – and has always tried to do just that!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Judging the Season
“Last season before the first game was played he [Colangelo] called the Raptors a 50 win team.”
.
Actually, BC said the “potential” was a 50 win team (aka – our goal). If Bosh doesn’t go down (like he did), the Raptors could’ve been a 43 – 44 win team, and in the play-offs. Had Turk been a little more productive (one of his worse years), and the Jose/Jack situation not develop, the final number might’ve been closer to his goal.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 12, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmmm, I have my doubts about them being a 43 win team as their two games after Cleveland (when Bosh’s face was broken) were against Atlanta and Boston. Hardly teams that are easy to beat (especially for the Raptors). In fact the only game whose outcome might have been different was against Chicago and yes if we win that game we make the playoffs, and still lose Bosh anyway. The team failed, coming up with excuses for why it failed is just that, coming up with excuses. People get fired for failure all the time, why shouldn’t BC be different?
Every year there is a team that has been crap for ages that improves and everyone says that is the model that must be followed.
I don’t see how accumulating picks and retaining financial flexbility could be considered a trendy thing to do and will be out the door when another team scores big. It’s safe, cheap, and leaves you in control of your own destiny. The reason we hadn’t seen it before is because GMs, quite frankly, have not been very good for the past 20 years, and many still aren’t. Now we’re beginning to see capologists and highly educated wonderkids take coveted FO positions, and for good reason.
Amen Robert Archibald! You read my mind !
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
me too
much less frequent poster, but I also was not happy a week ago, so I have egg on too. really, really surprised to see these deals happen. I wonder what is going on in Phoenix? I will wait and see what the season brings, which is a definite improvement on my attitude. Yup, that’s why I am not the GM.
+1
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
AMAZING
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 12, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Congrats, Raptor fans. You just turned the Bosh, Hedo, & Jose lemons into lemonade.
Although I’m not a fan of the Raptors, I cannot help but feel excited for you. Your GM actually accomplish to blow up the team for a fresh start. It’s going to be fun to see how your team develops in the next few years.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
Thanks, but...
I like the sound of these moves, but I have to admit Colangelo has established a reputation for blowing up the team every year. Hope he can find a formula that he is happy with, so that we can have a quiet offseason one of these years…
He had no choice because he only had a 3 year window to please Bosh. If something didn’t work he had to fix it…quickly!
by Assistant GM on Jul 12, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
lots of youth - lots of potential
reserved excitement.
but hey – your an orlando fan. So i think most Raptors are with me when I say:
BEAT THE HEAT
I was thinking the same thing
I think Larry Brown will love Jose on offense, but to say he won’t be impressed with Jose’s defense might be a massive understatement.
re Jose and Larry Brown
Seeing that Charlotte was the #1 defensive team in the NBA last year, I think Larry may be able to fit Jose in as a PG somehow.
What about Jay?
I wonder how patient BC will be with Jay?
Getting a team to gel after so much change is not going to be easy…especially when players will not exactly know “their role”.
I'll bet
Brown squeezes a decent defensive performance out of Jose.
Rewind…
SO for all those who want to rewind time back.. people are preferring this roster and situation to today?
Rafael Araujo C 6-11 280 August 12, 1980
Andre Barrett G 5-10 172 February 21, 1982
Matt Bonner F 6-10 240 April 5, 1980
Chris Bosh F-C 6-10 228 March 24, 1984
Jose Calderon G 6-3 210 September 28, 1981
Antonio Davis F-C 6-9 215 October 31, 1968
Joey Graham F 6-7 225 June 11, 1982
Mike James G 6-2 188 June 23, 1975
Darrick Martin G 5-11 170 March 6, 1971
Morris Peterson F 6-7 218 August 26, 1977
Jalen Rose G 6-8 210 January 30, 1973
Pape Sow F 6-10 250 November 22, 1981
Charlie Villanueva F 6-11 240 August 24, 1984
Aaron Williams F-C 6-9 220 October 2, 1971
Alvin Williams G 6-5 185 August 6, 1974
Eric Williams F 6-8 220 July 17, 1972
Loren Woods F-C 7-1 245 June 21, 1978
That 2005-06 team was making me feel young.
So its 2006 and you’re BC with the roster above (minus a few players), this was the FA list: what would you have tried? http://www.basslinespin.com/2006NBAFreeAgents.htm
Same thing that BC did before?
I mean seriously, that was his best makeover job. And to be honest, if the Raptors had not ruffled Peterson’s feathers so much by starting JOEY @!$#$ GRAHAM over him, we may not have been quite so far behind. But because of that and an unlucky "break" later, we were scrambling for 3 years to figure out a SF solution.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
No, but mismanaging his personality and Garbo’s leg certainly did.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Garbo should have played, MP should have been catered to a bit more. I mean, this was your veteran SF who you just pushed aside for Joey Graham down the stretch when Garbo injured his leg. That’s how far down Mo Pete was on the depth chart. At the end of that year, you lost Mo Pete because he wasn’t happy with his position in Toronto and how Sam Mitchell was managing him, you lost Garbo due to injury, and your brought in Carlos Delfino along with Jason Kapono to take their place along with Joey G. Since then, they’ve been searching for the right guy.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
That was the best stretch of basketball of Graham’s career…
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jul 12, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhm are you kidding me? Letting Peterson when we did was the best move as he has done nothing in NO to warrant the contract they gave him. The real issue was that BC put faith in Joey and extended him then promptly made sure he would never see the floor by bringing in Moon, Delfino and Kapono. That is why our SF spot is a mess.
I liked the Parker and Garbajosa deals, it brought in some quality basketball players where we were lacking before. I also liked the TJ ford deal at the time. It’s just too bad he became unhappy.
It the summer after that season where things started to come off the rails.
About TJ
I don’t know if it was just that he was unhappy, but that stinger and neck injury was pretty scary stuff to have in your lead point guard who was going to the basket all the time.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we took enough chances with him. It was two stingers and the prognosis wasn’t good for the future either in that he might have even more stingers. That’s a ton of risk I think.
What we got back for him, I still debate about. But yeah, when we traded him was the right time I think.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.. and my take on it was that I thought it was a tough break, and I said we’d be lucky to get a pile of rocks for TJ. I like TJ, but after the accident, I thought he was done.
So… TJ for O’Neal. Good? Awful? (at the time now.. no future hindsight peeking).
I hated it at the time because J.O. was consistently injured 3 years (or was it 2) in a row, was being paid on the OLD max salary, and was never going to provide VALUE for his contract. There was just no way Jermaine O’Neal was going to become an All-Star center again to make his massive contract a worthwhile investment. You also lost Rasho Nesterovic, who I really liked at the time. (Hindsight though, J.O. at least massively helped Bargnani’s development in the post, so I’m grateful for that)
The alternative deal that I remember was TJ for Diaw or something, and that was the deal that I was much more comfortable with.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough.. as I recalled, it was TJ + 2 first round picks for Diaw. (Raps didn’t want to give the 2nd first rounder).
I’m not sure that would have been a better deal with two 1st picks. ONe of them being the #17 pick for that year.
I can’t remember, but I don’t think we turned those picks into anything worthwhile anyways.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
well.. we unfortunately had to give them away.. part of this was losing an asset like Garbo.
Ok.. but there’s alternate universe #1. Diaw. No 2008 and 2009 #1 picks.
Ok.. but there’s alternate universe #1. Diaw. No 2008 and 2009 #1 picks.
I’m not sure. But let’s say they got Diaw, got Delfino (because I’m running this team) and then they would have had to focus on getting a backup center and PF or something, and a point guard.
I HATE hypotheticals lol. But yeah, that’s probably what you’re looking at. I’m not the kind of guy to go “what if” with, because I also believe that every action results in a ton of other things happening. I mean, who would Indiana trade O’neal to, and how would that end up affecting what’s available on the FA or trade markets?
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You are all forgetting the center in Hibbert we would have had if not for that trade. He may never be an all-star but you cannot deny he would have fit nicely with AB.
Sorry, forgot about Hibbert.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I liked the O’Neil deal too. It was a huge gamble, but it kept us from becoming a treadmill team I felt. If it worked, we’d be very good; and if it didn’t we’d be very bad, which meant a high draft pick. In addition we’d have $20+ million coming off the books this summer which would be a good opportunity to load up in a very good free agency class.
I was prepared for the possibility that JO may not work out and we’d be a bad team. I thought BC was too, but when things started going south, he panicked and made the Marion trade.
So you would have preferred keeping JO than Marion? But wouldn’t that have meant that Bosh was going to be upset because he wasn’t able to get to the low post because of JO?
Yes, I would have, and I said so on this site at the time. Marion was a great fit from a basketball perspective, but it meant giving up another 1st round pick, trading our coveted 2010 cap space for crappy 2009 cap space, and got 3 years of Marcus Banks and his untradeable contract.
As far as upsetting Bosh goes, I would think that he was informed of the plan before JO was picked up in the first place, and if he was upset with it, whatever. I am under no impression that Chris Bosh was leading us anywhere but middle of the pack at best. Whether or not he stayed was secondary to me. But the original plan before the Marion trade would have had us looking pretty good from cap perspective, and if we were bad in the meantime, we’d have some good young players. I was on board with that plan. The Marion trade signalled the abandonment of that plan for whatever you want to call last year’s plan (the Appease CB4 plan?), which had us combine 9 new players with a rookie coach, start a rookie all year and then overypay for a guy so that we could win now? That’s what I had the problem with.
So you had no F’N idea who Parker and Garbajosa was like the rest of the league. What else would you have done?
I would have taken a flyer on Wilcox or Pryzbilla if the price was reasonable, but if I recall, both got big deals. I was a Fred Jones fan at the time, so I would have done that too. But there’s alot of crap on that list, so I would’ve done nothing in that scenario and tried to use that cap space in a trade.
For the record, I’m not killing BC for the summer of 06. I thought he did a great job.
Oh...
the glory days.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 12, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
the good news is.. if we didn’t sign P&G, Sam Mitchell doesn’t win Coach of the Year award, and Marc Ivaroni becomes Raptors head coach. That would have been alternate universe #3.
That is a better situation? Marc Ivaroni lasted 2 shakes of a lambs tail in Memphis. That is your better alternative?
I am guessing there was a bit of sarcasm there
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
A Slightly Different Take
Just a thought (I am still digesting the deals, have not formed a complete opinion yet, put initially a positive reaction), but make note now – there is going to be a ton of new faces on this team, much like last year – so expect the same arguments (they need time to gel etc.) and expect this team to struggle early and often.
I pity Jay Triano in all of this. Once again he is starting with a remade roster and most of the players will need to learn a new system (and hopefully an improved one on the defense end).
At some point the major overhauls have to stop. Consistency is key in building a winning franchise. Is the future brighter today after the deals? Yes. Does this team have any cornerstones in place? Not at this moment, as far as I can tell…but it is way to early to make that determination given the youth.
Here’s hoping this season is fully of pleasant surprises even if the team struggles in the W and L columns.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 12, 2010 4:54 PM EDT reply actions
Consistency
I also agree with this, good teams don’t have a lot of turn over. However, it is a chicken and egg situation, because TO has needed changes and still seems to be looking for the right combination to stay with. This might be based on the whole incompatibility of Bosh and Bargs and that they were never going to mesh, regardless of how many times the supporting cast was shuffled around. We’ll have to wait and see what happens with this latest mix…
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
This team still needs someone who can put the ball in the basket
Scoring might be an issue. Overall tho, I like these moves. I’d hold on to the TPE until after the season starts.
Bobcats fan here
We’re all waiting in anticipation as well. Excited about Calderon. He seems to be the offensive spark that Larry Brown needs. And hopefully Brown can teach him to play D, or otherwise Calderon will be getting an ear full every game. Any thoughts?
You guys should welcome Diaw. He isn’t a typical PF, but does many things that most PFs cannot. If you use him wisely he can help out a lot. Chandler on the other hand is a bit of a disappointment. He has defense and all the physical ability in the world, but too often can finish offensively. Plus he’s only good for about half a season due to injury.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
We won’t be needing Diaw too much on the PF side of things. I think he’ll be staying at SF which is more where he’s suited.
In Calderon, you get a really quality team guy. I love his heart and passion. He’s the guy that I actually have a jersey for, and I’m sore to see him go. He will make people around him better and is completely unselfish, sometimes to the point of his own detriment. Great shooter, great at the free throw line. Has had some leg injuries.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jul 12, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I see Diaw playing a lot more at the 3 than the 4.
Also, Jose is a great team player and will be helped out greatly by being on such a strong defensive club that might help to cover up some of his deficiencies on that side of the floor.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Jul 12, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice that you are excited....
Calderon was loved here but his defense made him a complete liability when on the floor. His personality will be missed…letting all other PG’s get to the rim at will – that won’t be missed.
Chandler really is the wild card here. If he can stay healthy he could be a nice addition.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 12, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Diaw is more valuable than Chandler
I know you doubt that… But if Diaw is on then he can win games for you. Chandler on the other hand, we had a number of backups you’ve probably never heard of, that out performed him last year.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Calderon should be in sync with Brown on offense. He likes to run a structured game plan and having developed in Europe he will do what he is told. On defense, he will try, but his mobility is not the greatest, so don’t expect too much. LB will like the fact that Calderon is disciplined, has good shot selection, and is a good locker room prescence.
Does that first girl...
have a BROKEN ARM?!
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jul 12, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Bad
How the hell does BC do it ? that was the best trade I’ve seen BC pull off since being here runs right up there with Aruajo for Humphries few yrs back …. still not feeling the Diaw part but if he’s inspired to play he can thorn in an oppossing teams side !!!! everything else is ok …. for now… still wanna see a lot of weems and Derozan this season… I just got a hunch these 2 will cause alot of problems for alot of teams with older wings …..
by raptor fan 4 life on Jul 12, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions
It's not final
I love this trade too but I only focus on NBA.com information. It didn’t say anything about Jose leaving and Chandler coming to T.O. To be honest I would love for Chandler to come in but I am curious about who the other person they mention. If we have Chandler then what about bargnani? will he go cause looking at the team so far NBA.com confirm that Barbosa is heading to T.O. That means maybe Chandler would play Pf Only cause I don’t see him coming off the bench he was the defensive player of the year not to long ago. so Bargnani,Chandler,Barbosa,Derozan,and Jack. bench so far would be Amir,Davis,Klieza,Weems, and a pg. looks decent. just hope the chandler trade is not just rumors. And Diaw is great but I haven;t heard of that either on nab.com i don’t think that one will happen.
whats the other piece that the raps are giving up in this?
I hope its not either of the young guns
by sherwin316 on Jul 12, 2010 5:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
youngs guns
if your talking about derozan,weems, or davis then same I hope we stay with them for a long time.
Reggie Evans
Don’t think anyone else will be moved
ITS OFFICIAL
WOOOHOOOOO
LA LA LA LAAAAAA HEYY HEYYYYY GOOD BYEEEEEE turk,
nothing to do with topic
but it would be amazing if kobe beats the heats for his six championship next year.
Was just listening to the Basketball Jones recap of the LeBron “decision” (yes, behind in my reading/viewing thanks to all this Raptors madness) and they were saying the same thing.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jul 12, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Summer League
Has anyone been watching the summer league. Ive been dissapointed with Sonny Weems thus far. Yes he put up 19 points but went 5-11 from the charity stripe, DD needs to add A LOT of weight, his driving to the basket was WEAK. I’ve been impressed with Ed Davis, solid on D and Joey Dorsey is a guy that a lot of raps fans will love to see in the paint (given playing time of course, pulled down 10 rebounds before whole suns team could even get into double digits).
as far as pg’s go, Dee Brown is probably the worst at running the floor and passing. when he was on the floor i believe he caused 5 turnovers. However seasoned vet Bobby Brown was very impressive, he seemed to gel with the young guys well and his control was terrific, wouldnt mind seeing him as a backup to be honest with you
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yea it but
Derozan played ok and great exactly. he weighs 220lb. maybe 10 more will be great but for the sg position his weight is good. kobe is around there. DD just needs to know how to draw contact like kobe and melo.
Great trade
just found out about this trade, I have been away all day so I’m very happy that we get rid of the ottoman kind of sad to see Jose go he was a very hard working guy. Love the chandler addition if he can stay healthy hes a very very good defensive presence and was instrumental in the Hornets early success
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 12, 2010 6:35 PM EDT reply actions
wondering
I was on another blog and some are saying heats are thinking of going for Iverson, and shaq hence the reason why he hasn’t signed with the hawks yet. they both have money, got championships or went to the final, and with a line-up such as Shaq,Bosh,James,Wade and Iverson is that too much and since the raptors do need a PG for the back up would we go for Iverson? any takes
Iverson is way past his prime and would not accept a bench role
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 12, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The Moves
I’m relatively satisfied with these trades. If you check on any of my other posts on this board, I was very much agaist the Turks signing, O’Neal trade, etc., though this at least makes somewhat sense with Bargs moving over to PF with a defensive-minder Chandler pounding the boards. A one year deal contract for a team that was going nowhere is a decent gamble. A much as I’ll miss Calderon, that deal is whack in this age.
In regards to talks of Hibbert, remember it was not the Raps decision to pick Hibbert so we have no idea what we would have ended up with if it was BC’s pick.
It’s almost as though Colangelo has a list of players he wants on his team, and the cost to acquire them has finally come down far enough to where he can get them after all these years.
If Colangelo runs his family the same way he runs his basketball team, some kid is getting a Roboraptor for Christmas.
Woj is saying
MJ is rethinking the Calderon/Evans for Chandler trade. If this is the case, can the Barbosa for Hedo trade still go through?
And the link is:
I really hope the other deal still goes through.
Yea the other trade is basically a lock
I’m hoping THIS deal still goes through…
noooooooooooooooo i like chandler hes going to be a steal for us
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 13, 2010 12:11 AM EDT reply actions
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