The Opposite or, What Would Presti Do
by Adam Francis on Jul 10, 2010 12:33 PM EDT
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With the Chris Bosh sign-and-trade now complete, Franchise briefly discusses some options for the Raptors going forward, and how Bryan Colangelo should approach his self-proclaimed "retooling..."
As many readers know, I'm a big Seinfeld fan.
In University, a few friends of mine and I decided at about 3 AM one evening that we would try to start capturing every episode on VHS, a monumental task but one that after enough rye and cokes, seemed like a good idea at the time.
Yes, we knew that the entire series would probably appear on DVD soon after we finished our task (if we ever did), but that didn't dissuade us and in the end, we grabbed every possible episode of its glorious nine-year run.
I was reminded of this by a reader, (MAS11) of this little exercise when he posted in the comments section to an article earlier in the week. He noted that:
If Colangeo starts asking himself that question and makes decisions based on the answer – we may have a fighting chance! It’s like that Sinefeld episode where George Costanza decides to do the oposite of what he would normally do in every situation. If only Colangelo would do that…. Just DON"T trust your instincts Brian…
I thought this was a hilarious concept and if you watch the full clip here, perhaps at some point in the last 8 weeks, you can truly imagine a non-high-collared Bryan Colangelo sauntering into Maurizio Gherardini's office and the following exchange happening:
Bryan: "It's not working Maurizio...it's just not working."
Maurizio: "What is it that isn't working?"
Bryan: "Why did it all turn out like this for me? I had so much promise. I was personable, I was bright..."
You could go on and on with it too.
Now while I don't think that like Costanza, every decision Colangelo has made in regards to the Raptors has been wrong, from the moment he tried to pair Andrea Bargnani with Chris Bosh, and followed up on that the following off-season by inking Jason Kapono with the mid-level, he went off track.
Now of course, the challenge is for him to get the ball back on the fairway and I'm happy to say that late last night's confirmation of a sign-and-trade with Miami, is a good first step.
For all the talk of "re-tooling" as opposed to "rebuilding," BC now has two first-round picks, potentially a high (Toronto's if indeed the team struggles as expected) and a low (Miami's) pick in next year's draft, a draft that should be similar to this past season's in terms of talent.
He also has the expiring contracts of Reggie Evans and Marcus Banks to work with, and now what appears to be a $14.5M trade exception.
So...where does Linas Kleiza fit into all of this?
Yes, he's a solid all-around player, but a four-year deal of this nature seems to fly in the face of what I believe this team should be trying to accomplish, and now may have the tools to start doing.
To me, the Kleiza signing is akin to George Costanza still ordering the "Tuna on Toast." It's time for Bryan Colangelo to start doing the opposite and thinking like some of his more savvy peers, say Sam Presti.
Presti time and time again has taken advantage of teams that have overpaid for underachieving talent by agreeing to take said bums off their hands in exchange for future assets. This strategy has helped him turn around a horrible Seattle/Oklahoma City team, turning it into one of the league's most promising squads.
Sure, having Kevin Durant fall into your lap certainly helps, but I truly believe in the expression "you create your own luck" and Presti did that by rolling the dice on the likes of Westbrook and Ibaka, and making key veteran additions like Nenad Krstic.
I truly believe BC needs to go this route.
Raptors Republic this morning did a good job of laying out some players who could be options regarding Toronto's new-found trade exception.
Of this group, I believe Toronto should be targeting players on teams that are looking to cut costs, thus hopefully earning cheap talent in exchange for the cap relief the Raps would be providing. Some examples of this would include Nene, Emeka Okafor and David West, Brandon Bass, Leandro Barbosa and Jason Richardson and Joel Pzybilla.
Several other players are enticing in that they'd immediately be an upgrade to the roster, but you'd have to weigh the benefit of their deals against developing current youth and keeping cap space for the future.
And unlike some of the local media who are suddenly endorsing some sort of tanking strategy, this isn't about "tanking" necessarily. This is about doing what's best for the club in the long-term, not swinging for the fences or finding band-aid solutions at every turn, something that's occurred far too often over the past four seasons.
If that means a trip to the top of the lottery, so be it. And if that means winning 33 games, missing the playoffs, but showing signs of growth and progress on-court, while continuing to collect future assets, done.
My point here is that Colangelo really has a chance now to start rebuilding, and with a sturdy foundation, not one based on trying to force-fit a square peg (Bargnani) into a round hole (pairing with Bosh.) Trying to bring in players for a playoff run next year seems fruitless to me, especially since clubs like the Heat, Bulls, Knicks, Bucks and 76ers have all upgraded their levels of talent.
Again, if playoffs are the end result of the current talent mix overachieving and finding a nice mix of chemistry, so be it, I'll be thrilled.
But let's just hope in effort to get back there, we don't hear Bryan Colangelo order the Tuna on Toast over the Chicken Salad on Rye.
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What?
Why would Linas Kleiza not be a good fit for the long term? You bring up Nenad Kristic as a good signing by Presti but criticize Kleiza? Makes little sense. Klieza is 25, plays a position that currently has Hedo & Sonny Weems (one okay season) on the depth chart, and has those other qualities (grit, toughness, basically sandpaper like traits) that will help this team in the present and the future. Played behind Carmelo in Denver but showed that he had a game that worked in this league, but was squeezed last year and went overseas for some money.
The CBA is going to change, draft picks (with their low salaries and locked in terms) are going to be AT A PREMIUM going forward as teams look to rebuild more cost effectively (despite this offseason’s spending). Teams with multiple first or second round picks will probably hold onto them as a good way to restock their rosters at low cost, so it’s not as if Colangelo offering to take bad contracts will also bring picks with it. This is different than Presti taking Curt Thomas from Phoenix, whose cheap owner so badly wanted to avoid luxury tax commitments that the pot was sweetened. Everything has to be viewed in its context.
Saying that one good season makes a complete turnaround is premature (kind of like the Raptors 06/07 run). They’ve had to start spending money now to hold onto their talent, so we’ll see how things hold together, given that they don’t have a Paul Allen. I think the one thing Presti did very well was hire a solid coach.
But this down on BC from all angles tone is really starting to take away from what used to be more balanced writing.
Maybe this is off-topic; but let’s take a look at the perennial good teams that can never seem to get past the hump like Utah. How do you measure their mgmt versus the BC-situation?
Does their mgmt deserve bonuses/praise for a job well done each year, or when would be the time to clean-house b/c after a decade or two of solid performance if I was a Utah fan, I’d say I’m sick of having a top team just to lose in the first or second round. Name me one super move by their mgmt that would have taken Utah over the top during the Malone/Stockton era and it wasn’t Jeff Hornack. The same can be said this year by letting a piece leave like Boozer.
BTW…for the the Lakers to get Artest for Ariza. and Gasol for nothing that is just so above the board amazing mgmt compared to the other GM’s in the league, but I think there was some sort of Jerry West conspriacy to influence the Gasol trade.
I think it opens up an interesting discussion
And I’ve asked this before…will Raptors fans be okay with being equally as successful as the Utah Jazz…solid win total for the regular season, perpetually in the mix for two rounds of playoff success, maybe 3 when the stars align, but not quite championship material. Boozer worked out nicely for them while he was there, Milsap might prove just as good as his replacement, but I doubt anyone is sizing them up for championship rings, especially if we are about to enter the era of super teams.
I could imagine similar frustration points being reached in Portland, OKC, Denver, Houston. We haven’t had this level of success and so we pine for it, but if we get to that point, will we be happy not getting beyond it before the economics demand ANOTHER REBUILD?
Try. If one combination doesn’t work, try again, but never simply concede to a poor season in hopes that one of the draft prospects will save the franchise. This is still subscribing to the star system thinking that is becoming less and less viable for a team like the Raps.
I believe Colangelo is abandoning this star system thinking and we will begin to see a lot of signings like Kleiza and Johnson, mid to near mid level pieces that fit into a philosophy of sandpaper basketball. Bosh’s departure was the wake up call. The term “Franchise Player” should be stricken from the Raptors vocabulary. Allow the “stars” to be made by way of team success.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 10, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just want to see a Raptors team that is competitive and plays hard at both ends of the floor for 48 mins a night. A team that seems like they care about the fans and each other. Even if they rarely get all that deep into the playoffs,
I think that’s the big thing for me – I’ll cross the “Utah bridge” when the team comes to it but right now, it would be nice to have an annual playoff visit for starters. Looking at the team’s 15 or so year history, that’s been a rarity in itself so having a club that competes at both ends of the floor for 48 minutes is definitely the starting point.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 11, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
From an outsiders perspective, you do have to respect a team in the West that has put together four 50 win seasons in the past 10 years and only been under .500 once.
Absolutely.
Sure that might be frustrating on some level, but Utah keeps moving the pieces around and without the Lakers, would probably have appeared in a few finals.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 11, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The lakers stealing top players is 10% having a top GM, and 90% being LA where players will take a discount to go, so that they can live among palm trees and stars, and have perenial shots at winning titles.
To the extent that players choose where to go, the top top players will want to congregate together at traditional power house teams, and that’s not good for everyone else. I’m sure I could think of an example of this if I put my mind to it.
The Lakers are all about an owner who knows what he is doing. Kupchak was hired to be the GM and has done a pretty good job of bringing in the talent while not shipping out talent that would come in handy down the road. A prime example of that is Andrew Bynam whom the Lakers refused to trade for Jason Kidd. In retrospect, that trade would probably have been a disaster for the Lakers as Kidd has slowly become a shadow of his former self while Bynam (though injury prone) has help the Lakers to two tittles. Another example is his refusal last year to overpay Ariza and then use his desire to be a bigger player to net a much better fit for the Lakers in Ron Artest.
Sure, a good manager is important. But drop Kupchak into Minnesota, and see how many titles he wins then. Because I bet Ron Artest is just itching to head north. A good manager is a necessary condition, but it is not sufficient.
Location is a factor for sure…but there are what, 6 “desirable locations” in the league?
-LA
-Miami
-Dallas
-Orlando
-Houston
-Chicago
Um…struggling from there.
Knicks are less and less in that top six picture, and clubs like Boston and San Antonio are desirable because they have winning cultures. Remember how many free agents wanted to go to Boston pre-KG and Ray Allen?
Crickets?
My point is there are too many players to all be horded amongst those top 6 or even 10 “desirable” locations so at some point you build a winning culture, location be damned, and the players come to you.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 11, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t think Houston and Dallas are desirable lol no more so then Toronto. What i don’t get is why isn’t Toronto in the top 3 like i know realistically it isn’t but it should be. you have the opportunity to appeal to more then 30 million people because Toronto is Canada’s only b-ball team. A lot of cool musician are from Toronto its very multicultural and tis the 5th biggest city in north america
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
why isn’t Toronto in the top...it should be
and I agree… but thats spoken like a true Canadian.
… and I think thats where the disconnect is. We as Canadians don’t understand why Americans don’t want or aren’t interested in coming here. To us its confusing and therefore shouldn’t be true.
There is an interview with JP Riccardi saying that Americans don’t view Toronto as a destination they are interested in. Thats a former GM, of a Toronto sports franchise in a American dominated market, who can speak honestly as he doesn’t have any shareholders (fans, players, investors) to influence.
Doesn’t mean they won’t come… it just means its an added hurdle.
And while I agree with Franchise (and others) that once you build a winning culture location can become (atleast to most) less relevant… the problem is how much more difficult is it to build that winning culture when you have the hurdle of players not wanting to come?
For example if Salmons or Ariza had not turned down Toronto (and therefore likely no need for Hedo) would the team be in a much different situation right now? If even further back McGrady, Damon, Vince, Davis etc didn’t want to leave? Would it be Wade or Lebron (or some other FA) looking to come to Toronto rather than Bosh leaving? Would something as simple as Steve Francis agreeing to be drafted by the Grizz been enough to get them some added attention, some more fans, some more players etc etc. and still have a franchise there today?
Its one of the reason I wish Raps fans would start being more patient with GMs and Coaches, and why we should be more excited (or atleast less dispassionate) when those guys are actually trying to win. Especially those that have been more succesful than others.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
ya its very frustrating that Americans just don’t get us. Toronto is a great city i think one of the best in the world this is coming from a guy who’s lived in Europe and the states before. Toronto is a fine city it really is so man different cultures uniting together it symbolizes what humanity should be like but sadly isn’t like.
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, my wife is American, and really a big city type of person, and even then the idea of moving to Canada weirded her out for quite a while.
When you’re in a different country with a slightly different culture, it just doesn’t feel like home in some subtle way.
And also Canada may have 30 million people, but
a) that’s the size of Ohio, and
b) half of those 30 million people live a long way from Toronto and resent it rather than like it.
I was extremely skeptical about your claim that Ohio had 30 million people considering they don’t have a single city that tops 1 million (Cleveland is the largest and it is only about 450000) and NY state only has 19 million people so I looked it up. They have 11 million total which is about what Toronto can draw in their surrounding area.
If you look back though, both Ariza and Salmons not signing here may have been good things in themselves. Salmons is inconsistent and has frustrated the teams he has played for while Ariza has not exactly overwhelmed the Rockets. True they are probably better options than Hedo but so is just about anyone who fits in the Raptors offensive sets. As for JP Riccardi, his credibility is a little questionable. It is also quite possible that he was using that tired excuse to avoid admitting the real reason why FAs would be unlikely to come here, the lack of chances to win. If Toronto was in the Central division instead of the East, I think we would attract more FA’s because at least we would stand a chance of winning the division and therefore going to the playoffs. Besides, who would want to play for some of the teams JP put out there, isn’t that why he was fired?
man when your the Lakers everyone wants to join you. you have no problems convincing players to join your team. its harder to be a gm in a small market then it is to be in a big market like l.a
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 10, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Franchise, you forgot the original sin.......
Why don’ you add to the list of “ill advised” strategies the original sin: Build around Bosh. If you think about it that is the original sin, all other moves are comsequences. Pat Riley has been smarter and put # 4 where he belongs: Third fiddle.
This means also taking the Costanza pill for you and “Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf” MAS11…….
Indeed, Bosh was the starting point when BC arrived, the team’s best player – had BC gotten better talent to surround Chris with, maybe Chris WOULD have been third fiddle, or at least proper second-banana.
Don’t get your last sentence though…Costanza pill?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 10, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Costanza Pill
Meaning do like George Costanza: Start to do the oppisite of what your instincts would dictate you to do
If I read your answer correctly, is BC to blame because he hasn’t been able to get Jaems + Wade kind of talent around Bosh? I would say: A good (not great) PF i what make of your team a trademill one. Moreover he is not a leader and his characteristics ( C on offence and PF on D) make of him a difficult player to pair with. Let’s trade him.
BC went another way
Building around Bosh is not a crime. The Raptors have just been unable to get talent like Bynum, Iguodala, Granger, Roy, Hibbert, etc.. around Bosh.
If we had gotten guys when they were there for the taking, we would have had a damn solid team and been able to fill it out with good role players by using MLEs and such.
Absolutely
If previous management had put pieces like Iggy, Granger, Lawson, Jennings, etc, etc, around Bosh, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Again, Bosh is not Wade or LeBron, but I’m not sure how you can’t argue he’s one of the top 20 players you’d want to build a team around in today’s league.
Look at Indiana. Danny Granger is a top 20 talent and we’re seeing a similar situation where the team has failed to surround him other great players.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jul 11, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Spoken like someone with the benefit of hindsight!!!
You guys at HQ use to analyse and comment. Am beginning to think the glass is always half-empty now.
by Canuck Exile on Jul 11, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
the whole 'pieces' argument is unfalsifiable
1) it assumes that X player(s) are identifiable
2) it assumes that X player(s) were available (ie. could be obtained, would come)
3) it assumes that X player(s) would have worked (ie. played as well as they have elsewhere and/or would have fit alongside Bosh and the rest of Y team)
While I’m not saying its untrue, the only thing that we do know for sure is that 7 years of different players, different coaches, different GMs and different make ups with Bosh didn’t work. Anything else is a complete assumption.
Using this theory we could also say that Jalen Rose (not comparing him to Bosh so please nobody get this twisted) was good enough to build around, he just didn’t have the right players around him. Some actually thought (or still think) he was.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Those players were all available around Toronto’s draft slots and not ridiculous (like taking Rondo #1 would have been, though it now looks correct).
2) Obtainable – draft picks
3) Would have played as well? Who knows.
I don’t think that blows out the theory that we could have had a nice playoff squad with a chance to do damage instead of a mediocre one.
Also, Jalen Rose was never an all-star, so in the situation where you build around Bosh you are already up one all-star PF.
I never said the 'theory'
was wrong. But that doesn’t make it right either.
I was also referring to the ‘theory’ in general (and not those 4 guys specificially), but regardless, just because they could have been drafted doesn’t mean they were the best choice at the time or would have worked or would still work.
The logic is wrong.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see what you’re trying to say, other than that nobody knows what would have happened in the alternate universe. This is obviously implicitly understood in the discussion, and it carried on the way it did for expediency.
The point is that it has been shown that these drafts where we essentially came out with nothing, did indeed have useful talent that could have created a compelling team in this timeline.
If you want to be useful, maybe you can run some simulations to tell us what the current state of affairs would be factoring in different draft decisions, different draft slots, different draft classes, freak injuries, etc…
my point is
that nobody does know what would have happened and yet everyone talks as if these were facts.
ex. “If Ty Lawson were on this team, they would have won more and Bosh would have stayed etc etc.”
Its also complete and utter hindsight.
It comes to incorrect conclusions bases on incorrect logic.
There used to be a time where this site (atleast the writers) didn’t do this crap. Where they talked about “what ifs”, “could be” etc. When, as Canuck Exile said, the glass wasn’t always half empty.
This is expecially true once Bosh was traded, and here are “X” easy things that could have been done to keep Bosh, which is generally just not true.
As for being useful, stop living in the past and accept realities.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually Lawson was a player I believe was targeted by this blog as a player who could step in and help right away and that was before the draft occurred. I realise that hindsight is 20/20 but you always have to look at situations based on the historical aspects of them. If a GM makes x number of moves and the team ends up sucking do you assume that the GM was just unlucky or made a series of bad decisions which led to the teams situation. Trying to say BC is not to blame for this situation is like trying to say the US Banking Industry was not to blame for the sub-prime lending scandal. No one saw that coming either but that doesn’t absolve them of the blame because they probably should have.
I don't think BC isn't
to blame (in part)
I just don’t think he is solely responisble, that there were mitigating and outside factors, but he did the best job he was able to do given those. (again that if you look at the history of the Raps, players, etc soem are, atleast to me, pretty obvious)
People are just so bothered by the place the Raps are now, they are unwilling to accept anyting else. Especially those who had ‘misplaced faith’ in Bosh’s abilities.
I’m actually I’m going to expand on you Banking Industry anaolgy because I think its apt. While you are right, the Banks are in part to blame, they did the very thing that was in their nature, given a free market, to do… make money. While one could look at the bigger picture and say, it was the actually deruglation and lack of oversight that caused it (countries such as Canada and Australia which are much more strict in their oversight only had problems due to the US global monetay influence, but took much less of a hit as a whole or %)…. Republicans still maintain that a greater free market would have solved the problem (there was too much gov’t involvement), and it will be more productive going forward , democrats maintain that more control or more oversight was the solution, and more involvement will prevent it in the future.
So how does this relate… either could be right, we can never know for sure because both can never happen. But given the fact that countries with more government control (Canada, Australia, China) came out more successful than those with less control, its more plausible that more government control would and could prevent this.
And one can see that in the ‘Bosh’ case. The attempt was made to build around Bosh, it failed. And while its not impossible that it could have been successful given other conditions, it wasn’t. Much like the republicans argue free market is the solution, when they did allow a greater free market it resulted in a huge potential economic disaster. As people argued that Bosh is the guy to build around, it never worked and resulted in the team we have today. Anyone can say what they will about what “could” have been done or should have been done… fact is it was attempted and it didn’t work.
yet people continue to speak as if it is the truth that it could have… even though there is no factual evidence to back it up. But the more reasonable evidence, given history (no recent team has built around a PF and been successful… although depending on what you consider Tim Duncan it could be relative.., and the lack of success in that attempt again in Toronto), that it could not have worked. So the argument that the ‘right peices’ around Bosh is not the more reasonable argument.
So again back to ‘the Banks’, they are just the scapegoat in the bigger problem…. much as I see BC. Maybe they shouldn’t have done what they did, but its to be expected given the conditions. Maybe BC shouldn’t have done what he did (pick any moves you don’t like) but he did it in an attempt to appease fans (do what fans wanted)… which is what you expect him to do considering his job.
Hope that all makes sense and relates.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
We’re not living in the past. We’re addressing the argument that Bosh is not a player worthy of building around, not what you are reading which is do X things and Bosh stays.
Franchise says: “If we had put … (some number of talented players) … we wouldn’t be having this conversation.”
The team would have more success than the miniscule amount we had, and then people wouldn’t be saying stupid things like, “We’re better off without Bosh. You can’t build around him.” Despite there being only a handful of players in the league better than him.
see here is the problem again
“The team would have more success”
when that is NOT necessarily a fact…. yet it is continually stated as a fact…
which then means “you can’t build around Bosh” may be the truth (even though I never said it was).
The only truth is that it was tried for 7 years without success over and over… with different players, different GMs and different coaches. With the given information its more plausible (although not definte) that building around Bosh in and of itself was the actual mistake.
yet people keep telling themselve (and others) that everything else was the problem (coincidentally enough much like Bosh blamed everyone else for the teams problems).
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
"The team would have more success"
when that is NOT necessarily a fact…. yet it is continually stated as a fact…
If we drafted better, we would have more talent. A team with more talent will on average have more success than a team with less.
which then means "you can’t build around Bosh" may be the truth (even though I never said it was).
If we weren’t building around Bosh, we were building around nobody. Bosh is a top 15 player in the league and it is extremely difficult to land a player in that class. The ’00s Pistons have shown that a strong collection of essentially 5 borderline all-stars can be an extremely competitive team. For some teams, this is the path they will be forced to take. Having a top 5 player is not the only way to build a championship team, it is just the easiest way to go about it.
and there you have it
building around one player is not the only method (just the cookie cutter method) and if you do they should be a top 5 player (which Bosh isn’t)
So, Bosh shouldn’t have been built around because he wasn’t a top 5 (or so player… and that is ofcourse relative). The problem is Bosh was making top player money (for his age group) and he was the centerpeice of the team (meaning other moves were dictated around him)
Do you see now why I have a problem with the argument now…. He should not have been built around. So arguing other specific players were needed to put around him, is not necessarily true. he may have been the best we had, and a tough player to get (which I’d argue to but regardless thats irrelevant) but that doesn’t mean its enough or would have ever been enough.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
He should not have been built around.
Yes we should have. In fact, we did such a poor job of it that we’ll never find out what could hav been.
Your agenda is that Bosh shouldn’t have been built around, and if we had gotten guys who turned out to be good players, that they may not have been good anyway, or good enough. That’s not fair at all considering the argument can go both ways.
The Pistons didn’t have any players as good or young as Bosh and they dominated the East for a few good years. I’m not saying a team with Bosh necessarily wins a championship, but it has a chance if you are able to collect enough talent.
And without predicting alternate careers for guys the Raptors could have had, they would have had a developing core of Iguodala, Granger, Bosh, Bynum from 2005-2010. I’m sure that looks like a good start to most people.
Woh, woh, woh...
Why the antagonising comment my direction renato? Where’d that come from? Why don’t you stick to writting about what you know? Like how you’d love to cradle Bargani’s ballzack while wispering sweet nothings into his ear. Silly little Fanboy.
Uhm
I did not call any name, and my reasoning can be equally correct (or wrong) independently from Andrea. Since you asked for it, let me tell you, you made a name of yourself as the master of hindsight and a first class sports bar GM, who has yet to learn, in real life, the burdain of having to make decisions and live with the comsequences, likely because nobody has yet trusted you making any. You present your (otherwise legitimate) opinions as “the verb”, hence me calling you “Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf” MAS11. I did not mean to offend you, I found you “innocuosly funny” as he was at his time.
Now, let me elaborate on my post, which I understand it is not clear to you. There was no antagonism at all, I remember you and Franchise being strong #4 supporters. Now, in his article, Franchise elaborates on one of your posts from a previous blog, about George Costanza and he starting to do the opposite of what his instincts were suggesting to stop being a looser. Since Franchise has listed a number of decisions where BC-Costanza did wrong, I suggested to add one: The decision to use a good-but-not-great PF as the Franchise cornerstone, pointing out that, as soon as he left, the next GM he works for, has put him as a third fiddle. I suggested that, that decision, may have been BC’s original sin that made him take a serie of bad decisions. Now, at the opposite of you, I do not pretend to have offered a thought worth it to make it to the Mose’s 10 laws, but just to have provided a different perspective to the discussion.
by renato on Jul 10, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The decision to use a good-but-not-great PF as the Franchise cornerstone
.
I agree with the above statement.
BC’s method to building a winning team has been misguided, not only because he focused on Bosh, but because of a number of other factors:
1) Mitchell – Coach of the Year … hard to fire;
2) Jose being considered one of the top 10 PG’s – after a break-out season and his new “perceived” value,
3) TJ – I’m the man;
4) Salmons bolting from an agreement; etc.
And to to now define Bargnani as “the man” is another misguided perspective. Andrea is a complementary piece, necessary to build a winner.
.
Raptors need to find a gem amongst the new guys (and those coming). That Franchise player has to be from the 1 – 3 positions – being as this seems to be a quality amongst championship worthy teams. This is notwithstanding, if a Dwight Howard falls into our laps, we grab him.
.
Seeing all these contracts (and inflated values), one has to wonder if Hedo can’t be moved a lot easier these days. And possibly even Jose. If the TPE can extract a 1st round pick (for trade fodder), then BC’s options to move Turk & Calderon could get a lot easier. Then the retooling can begin in earnest.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 10, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
BC & rebuilding
I believe nowdays teams need to have a 2 or a 3, or even a 1 as cornerstone. In the 80’s it used to be you could start with a 5. Bosh being a (hell of) 4 makes you a treadmill team. Good enough to be aiming, season after season, a playoff contender. Unfortunately that precludes you from getting a good 1-2-3 from the draft.
Moreover Toronto the limitation of being a canadian team on an US league and not considered a top destination. I is a
oops, I do not know why the comment was submitted when I was not finished, the rest follows
bit of a " you like me if/ wen you get to know me" kind of destination for US players so, getting people from the draft is a must. Under this hypotesis, keeping #4 has been a mistake. A mistake big enough to warrant firing BC? Maybe, not sure. What I am sure about is the call for his head should not come from people who endorsed this strategy.
It’s definitely harder to build around a 4 as they are not the greatest offensive options in the crunch. But it is definitely doable – the Mavs made the finals with Dirk after one of the more dominant regular seasons in recent memory and then got robbed by the refs in the Finals.
What we never had was the support (second star) to see if Bosh indeed could have had success deeper in the playoffs.
Renato,
Firstly, you have made a name for yourself as a delusional Bargani fan boy, with total disregard for reality and facts. For years now you have conducted a single minded campaigne to protect Bargani’s image and reputation consistantly flouting facts and rational thought. It has been outright embarrassing and you should be ashamed. Many times I have wondered to myself that either you are actually on his payroll (Bargani’s cyber space Public Relations rep), a simple fan boy (much like a twelve year old girl will defend Justin Beaver to the death), or have some sort of homo-erotic fascination. However, I know it is a much more simple explanation, National Pride.
Regarding the decision to build around CB4, let me throw some facts at you. CB4 is not simply a good PF. He is currently (after last years production increase – 24pts 10.8rbs, 52% shooting), the best PF in the game (I’ll take a 25 yr old Bosh over a 32 yr old Dirk) . CB4 is one of only three players with at least 10,000 points, 4500 rebounds and 600 blocked shots over the last seven years. The other two players – Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. Both these players play the same position as CB4 and both have won championships in the last 7 years.
The difference between CB4 on the Raptors and KG and TD is the former did not have the team built arround him as the latter two did. No, Bosh was forced to play with Bargani. Using your metaphor, BARGANI was the original sin. A Bargani/Bosh front line was never going to work. Bosh should have been paired with a capable centre that could actually rebound and play defense. This was failure was only further exacerbated by adding Jose and Turk to the mix, both horrific defensive players.
Regarding your silly point about he should be a third fiddle as he is now in Miami is ber ridiculous. Of course he is the third fiddle on a Miami team that has arguably two of the top three players currently in the game on it. Any player in the leage (save Kobe) would be third best after Wade and LeBron.
well put....
People need to understand that even though Bosh wasn’t a flashy player, or garnered much U.S media attention (save for the last few weeks), he is arguably the best PF in the game right NOW.
Rob
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Jul 11, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
arguably the best PF
I think the point is ‘arguably’ is the key term.
Gasol, Dirk, Amare, Duncan coud all arguably fit in this category
Lee, Randolph, Boozer, Garnett are all arguably nearly as good (I’m sure more could be included)
There is no shortage of these guys.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You could argue the sky is not blue...
The only one from that list you could legitimately add to the argument is Gasol. And Gasol was not in this discussion before he played with Kobe and benefitted from the defence not gearing specifically to stop him, which is what Bosh also faced here in TO.
Amare – doesn’t rebound or defend. Offense consists of dunking.
Duncan/Garnett – on their way out
Lee/Randolf/Boozer… c’mon…
I think you would be hard pressed to make an argument that Bosh is not the best power forward in the game today. And most experts tend to agree…
the sky is not blue actually fits
because the sky is technically not blue…. but rather the light and the way your eyes interpret it makes you perceive that colour
… do I need to elaborate on how that relates?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
None of that second group is arguably better than Bosh since it’s such a ridiculous statement that noone will even bother to have that argument with you.
try to read what was written
‘Lee, Randolph, Boozer, Garnett are all ARGUABLY NEARLY as good’
thanks
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think no matter who BC put around bosh he was going to leave toronto anyway. Bosh Wade and LeBron have had this planed out for a long time
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Rose tinted glasses
Sorry man, but the point is that Bosh was not a franchise player. Good but not great! Could score but could not defend.
Given the wonky news this may be a blessing in disguise. Can Bargs step up? Let’s hope so. Let him play PF and find a defensive presence next to him and who knows what will happen.
Am excited to see a more rounded offence which does not run solely through Bosh.
by Canuck Exile on Jul 11, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
CB4
CB4 is a franchise player…pretty much like all the current great PF’s you can name off, but the glory is reserved for the wing-players or PG’s.
….look at his resume 4 All-stars, 2nd team all-NBA in 2007….
I don’t think being in Toronto made him underrated; but at PF he’s nobody’s first choice franchise player when the fans and media all give the glory to the wing-players or PG.
WHAT?!?
Let me get this straight. You flat out state Bosh is not a franchise player and then ponder Bargs stepping up to fill Bosh’s shoes at PF? Are you serious. Andrea is a solid role player for sure. He is not a franchise player, hell, he ain’t even a team leader. He is an above average role player. Everyone waiting for Andrea to pick up where Bosh left off are in for some serious disappointment.
Also, Bosh IS the best power forward in the game.
Sorry to disagree
Bosh was good offensively, sure. But he was fed the ball nearly every time.
I am not saying Bargs is better, but the number of times he was in the post and ignored for Bosh means that he will get more opportunities and more points.
I want to see a move even spread offence.
By the way, am not sure how you define best…..would suggest that there are many others as good and with different strengths.
by Canuck Exile on Jul 11, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not saying Bargs is better, but the number of times he was in the post and ignored for Bosh means that he will get more opportunities and more points.
I’m looking forward to this season just so we can put this type of thinking to rest once and for all. Bargnani is not going to emerge as a number one option and franchise cornerstone now that Bosh is gone. His numbers actually went DOWN when Bosh was out towards the end of 2010.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 11, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Your point doesn’t really hold water as the team played to a system – Bosh. Take him away and of course they will look a bit clueless.
by Canuck Exile on Jul 11, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
actually for the first initial games they were down but then they started to go up
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Complete crap.
Go back and check the stats. They are irrefutable. Bargani was definatively WORSE statistically when Bosh was out.
You keep calling names
and actually, that is all you do, as we say, you cannot get blood out of onions…
33-win hell
I totally disagree with the theory that 33 wins + development is a solid season. Either win 15 games and get a top pick or try for 50+ wins. Everything in-between is crap.
Agree
Basically, Toronto got ridiculously lucky to have Ed Davis fall to 13 and although he’s not a piece you build a team around, he’ll be a defensive force in years to come and hopefully doesn’t pick up and leave.
There’s also a bit of bad luck, Toronto gets first overall pick in 2006 and it turns out to be a garbage draft year. Maybe we should have taken Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldridge, Rajon Rondo or even Tyrus Thomas.
A wise man once said, "Only binge drink if you don't plan on getting laid."
LOL!
LOL@TYRUSTHOMASS!!
The man is a solid player, but not that great.
I remember watching Rondo in college and thinking, man this guy is quick. And he would be standing at the top of the key, palming the ball in his defenders face. I’m just not sold on him though, he needs to mature and he’s a horrendous shooter.
Life is like a bottle of Percocets. You can pretty much guarantee you're gonna get screwed at some point.
by realcanadianbacon on Jul 10, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Hypothetically speaking of course, (but in the same vein of doing the opposite)
I remember watching a Mighty Mouse interview a year or 2 ago, after he was retired and saying in hindsight he regretted leaving the good thing he had in Toronto….so take a moment and imagine if we could dump Hedo to bring-in Vince, and then sign TMac as an FA, I think the casual fans, and US media would take serious interest and it would be great PR for T-Dot. to bring these 2 “home”.
….ok this post was borderline nutz, but with the Heat getting the Trinity…well who knows what can and can’t be done these days.
true, we should either suck or try to be great
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 10, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I find this all very confusing....
I think when you look back on BC (vs Presti) you need to consider something else. He had an extrememly successful 1st year with the Raps. 47 win season and division championship. He unfortunately didn’t get to do what Presti did, suck complete ass for 2 years.
Now I ask should BC have ‘reblown’ up the team after that? Was having a successful 1st year and relatively succesfful 2nd year (and then losing 2 key peices) not one of the roadblocks to a ‘true’ long term development?
“you create your own luck” and Presti did that by rolling the dice "
isn’t that what BC has done, rolled the Dice? Is that not one of the major criticism of BC? He gambles to much… I know gambling is fun, and fun to watch, when you are winning. But when you are losing everyone asks why are you doing this.
“this isn’t about “tanking” necessarily"…. “If that means a trip to the top of the lottery, so be it. And if that means winning 33 games, missing the playoffs….”
I’m sorry but intentionally not trying, in order to get a better pick… not trying to be as successful as you can be IS TANKING. Its exactly what Presti did. Its what nearly every team does durign teh ‘rebuilding process’. Not every team is going to be the best every year, but when you either move your best peices for nothing, don’t try to add better players to your team, or do (little or) nothing when your team was one of the worst in the league… you are tanking.
I don’t necessarily have anything against it, but a spade needs to be called a spade. Not trying when you are not goood, is just as bad as trying to suck.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 10, 2010 3:10 PM EDT reply actions
You don’t tank. You just do what is best for your team’s long-term interests. You get guys who will compete, but don’t have prohibitive contracts. Maybe you win, maybe you don’t. But maintaining flexibility is the most important thing. Who knows what circumstances will arise in the future, but you have to be ready – many long-term deals don’t allow you to react to situations around the league as your hands are tied or they complicate potential solutions for other GMs.
I don’t know that not spending as much money as possible, every year would be considered tanking. Every team could find some way of improving their team marginally at a terribly high cost, it doesn’t mean they should do it.
One thing you should consider is that Presti took over a team in a new market – these types of teams typically don’t blow out their payrolls because ownership issues guidance to keep payroll low while interest is inelastic. I like to think he still would have done the same thing in a bigger market but perhaps the environment made it convenient to do.
These pretzels are making me thirsty!
“My point here is that Colangelo really has a chance now to start rebuilding, and with a sturdy foundation….. Trying to bring in players for a playoff run next year seems fruitless to me, especially since clubs like the Heat, Bulls, Knicks, Bucks and 76ers have all upgraded their levels of talent.”
I wholeheartily agree but what are our options gonna be. Good young talent usually ain’t available. Not without taking back a big contract.
One thing is we, definately won’t use it all. There is about 10 million in cap space after Kleiza and I see no need to go over the cap this season.
Like to see us look to LA, who are probably looking to add some PG depth. Jose would look good in purple and gold. Youth and draft picks, baby.
Turkoglu’s contract will be tough to sell in a trade, so here’s hoping he can thrive without the two main ball handlers from last season.
Belinelli should see the ball more, and Jack seems to be proclaiming himself leader.
The developement of Johnson, Weems Davis, DeRozan and a Boshless Bargnani(put up or shut up year) is where we lie. With Turkoglu and Kleiza, I assure you we will be a running team next season.
Finally, want to emphatically state to BC. Do not deal these two # 1 picks next year. And try to acquire as many draft picks that you can with you wheeling and dealing. And hold on to them.
Karma
Just wanted to add why we need to keep both # 1.
If there is any karma in this universe, Miami will be struck with injuries next season and their pick will be worth something.
darn, riley smart bastard. he knows if if the small chance that 2 of the top 3 get injured his team is screwed so he made sure the pick was lottery protected
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 10, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
“Of this group, I believe Toronto should be targeting players on teams that are looking to cut costs, thus hopefully earning cheap talent in exchange for the cap relief the Raps would be providing. Some examples of this would include Nene, Emeka Okafor and David West, Brandon Bass, Leandro Barbosa and Jason Richardson and Joel Pzybilla”
Unless the Raptors also get a first round pick or two, or a young player included, grabbing one of these guys would simply be a bandaid solution that put both the Raptors and Cavs into the situation they now find themselves. As you mention, the focus needs to be on the future and none of those players would help with that.
I say wait and use the trade exception to pick up a couple of first round draft picks, maybe by taking on a bad contract or helping another team get a deal they want done. I also think they can use some of it in next year’s draft to move up, if they need to.
Tim W.
The Picket Fence
I think if we are looking to rebuild or “re-tool” Collison is the best choice for us
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 10, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Ellis & Biedrins would be good additions
I read a colum today that interestingly enough described a trade with GSW using the TPE and another player (Hedo or Calderon) to acquire these 2. I’d do that ina heart beat.
by Member29 on Jul 10, 2010 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
WOW
Biedrins is one of the more underrated players in the league according to Wages of Wins. Besides, his offense is not why you target him, its his rebounding, defense and the ability to play center (moving Bargs to PF) that you want him for.
Ellis? Meh.
how about a as a general rule
no one from GS not named Curry?
I’d find it tough to go wrong that way.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 10, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris Humphries was one of the most effecient players in the NBA at one point
what’s ur point> They both have skill sets that we currently don’t have. Biedrins is a pure rebounder who doesn’t need offensive touches (was one of the top rebounders in the NBA 2 yrs ago) and a guy in Ellis who can create his own shot off the dribble. Ellis shoots too many shots to average his 20smthng PPG but under the right coach and system he may be able to clean that flaw up. A more controlled version of Monta Ellis could along with the guys we already have could make for a very exciting product next yr.
Humphries has never
played enough to be categorized… these two did.
(although Biendrins I don’t mind, he is just always hurt… Ellis is a unquestionable pass)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 10, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
On the contrary, before he got hurt two seasons ago he was listed as 50th best player overall in Hollinger’s Per and he was playing regular minutes because both Bosh and Oneal were out at one time or another.
you mean the same year
he played 29 games at 9 minutes a game?…. and that qualified as enough time to rank against approx. 150 starters? (not to mention 6th, 7th and 8th men)
regardless I’m never to concerned what Hollinger thinks.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but you just said he couldn’t be categorized. I agree Hollinger’s PER is a little iffy but you can create stats on just about anything.
I don't think
Hollinger took the proper amount of minutes into account.
261 minutes is the equivalent of 5 full games (we’ll say 8 at 35 minutes a game). Hard to compare that to others who played near full seasons.
as you said “lies, damn lies and statistics”
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 12, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
But if you dislike Andrea's D
you are going to tear your hair off at Biedrinis’…..
Nice start to summerleague
Yes I know its just SL, but if you compare DD to how he looked in SL last year, he is much more confident. DD and Weems were by far the two best players on the floor (Earl Clark looks brutal). Davis will not give us much on offence right away but he plays under control and will not hurt us. In time, he will be a better defender than Bosh. Alabi is a major project. Dorsey looks like he can give us what Reggie gives us on the boards without doing a Kobe imitation on offence. Promising start.
Interesting comments from Triano at half which suggested they plan to use Davis much like they used DD last year in terms of playing time. Look forward to on-site coverage from Raptors HQ.
Okafor & Collison with the TPE
Ive brought this up a few times on the site , but after reading Chisholm article about a month ago it seems that this would be the best bet & it would soften the blow of loosing Bosh by getting a young up & coming PG and a Center with TPE.
Sounds like with the TPE you are only aloud to get 1 player in the transaction, so we should use it get Okafor , and trade Collins for 2011 Miami pick which is gonna be late late 1st round. There is slim chance were gonna get anyone as good as Collins that late in the 1st round anyway, so getting a starting PG & a staring C for bosh isnt to bad. Okafor is 28 yrs old & averaged a double double over his careerr & makes 11.5 Mill which is reasonable . so we will still around 3.5 mil to use in another trade or maybe package it with some of our expiring contracts like Evans or banks or even Calderon , jack or Turk. I dont know the rules very well re the TPE. But i would jump @ this if i could.
Collison averaged 18.8-points and 9.1-assists per-game as a starter in 37 games while Paul was done with Injury.
Acronym for RAPTORS = RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally
by RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally on Jul 10, 2010 9:15 PM EDT reply actions
TPE
.
Can be used for multiple player trades
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Jul 10, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you understand Okafor..
has been traded from one team who could not stand him and is now being shopped by his new team after one season? Would’nt that suggest not to rush any decision on him?
It would allow Bargnani to move to the PF position though and isn’t that what we all want? I do agree that Okafor would be a mistake though as his contract is too long by 2 years. Ideally, anyone we get back with the TPE that isn’t in the long term plans of the franchise, should have a contract that expires in 2 years maybe 3 depending on the player. Okafor is under contract for 4 more years, that is too long.
not arguing against the theory
just arguing agains implementing it via Okafor. Now I should be mentioning an alternate name. From the top of my head I can’t
I'd take Okafor's contract...
… if it meant getting back Collison.
This is what a trade exception should be used for. Take on an undesirable contract in order to acquire future draft picks and/or young talent. When Okafor disappears in a couple of seasons, you’re left with your franchise point guard for the next decade.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 11, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
How long is Okafor's contract?
What makes you confident of retaining Collison? BTW Who would have thougth you were going to get more out of David lee S&T than Bosh S&T?
You’re right – it’s pretty sad that the Knicks managed to extract more out of the Golden State Warriors for David Lee than the Raptors were able to get for Bosh…
It’s even sadder that the Knicks think paying Amar’e $100 million is somehow an upgrade over Lee…
And I’m somewhat surprised that the Nets will get Anthony Morrow for $12 million over 3 years because the Warriors are in no position to match after acquiring Lee. Raise your hand if you’d prefer a lights-out shooter like Morrow at that price to Linas Kleiza.
I believe there are 4 or 5 years left on Okafor’s contract… I mean, you can never be 100% sure you’ll retain any player for a variety of reasons – but just look at Kevin Durant’s recent extension, which flies in the face of a lot of the other crap going on in free agency. If you build it (properly), they will come… and stick around even!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 11, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Durant signing an extension should not be a suprise, he would have been a RFA anyways which OKC would have matched (could you imagine them not?), and he would have likely signed for less money if that was the case (new CBA).
Even if the CBA doesn’t or wouldn’t change things, thats almost exactly the contract he would sign (except he passed on the player option in the 5th year) when his existing contract ended.
Its really, pretty standard stuff.
(it was pretty much the same extension Bosh signed, although he kept the player option, and the Raps weren’t winning at the time. Every “star” player coming off their rookie contract does it unless their team doesn’t want, or have, funds)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be great if the next CBA remains unchanged but seeing as the owners are looking to go hardcore on the players it could create all sorts of future problems and then you are increasing your risk to unnecessary levels. Collison is not a sure thing as he wouldn’t be the first backup PG to put up stellar numbers when the starter went down (Cough Calderon Cough) got paid to be a starter then fizzled. In my mind that is too much for something that isn’t a sure thing. Now if we were getting Chris Paul and Okafor then that I would do because we know Paul is a legit starter, injury concerns and all.
CHISHOLM: RAPTORS SHOULD CHASE COLLISON
http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=324646
While maybe his 12.4-points and 5.7-assists per-game overall last year weren’t especially eye-opening, his 18.8-points and 9.1-assists per-game as a starter were. Especially since, due to injuries to regular starter Chris Paul, he actually started 37 games for the Hornets last season, nearly half of the season, making the sample size significantly more relevant than had he simply blown up the last weeks of the season (*cough*JrueHoliday*cough*). As a starter, he shot 49% from the field, 43% from behind the arc, and had better overall averages than the highly-touted Stephen Curry (17.9ppg, 6.1apg, .461 FG%, .436% 3PFG) and Brandon Jennings (17.1ppg, 6.3apg, .371 FG%, .374 3PFG%). This is a guy that had fourteen 10+ assist games last season (which is eight more than Derrick Rose had), including one 18 assist game and one 20 assist game. He scored over 30-points twice, and over 20-points sixteen times (two more than Rajon Rondo). Keep in mind, too, that those outbursts occurred despite him coming off of the bench for 39 games on a pretty bad NOLA squad. He even had a triple-double (18-12-13) back on February 19 against Indiana. Not too shabby.
Acronym for RAPTORS = RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally
by RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally on Jul 10, 2010 9:15 PM EDT reply actions
WOW
Its not too shabby at all, but Wages of Wins has him as a slightly below average starter (0.80, with 1.0 being average for the position), which concerns me.
I can see Colangelo making a play for Rubio, a cosmopolitan guy in a bad situation who might vastly prefer Toronto to his other options. It is exactly the kind of scenario that Colangelo has the skills to take advantage of.
I like the Okafor idea mentioned above – he’s the anti-Bargnani, and should compliment him, especially defensively.
ya i think we should build the team around the Detroit bad boyz model no real all stars but 2 or 3 really good players
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Raptor future & Linas Kleiza
.
I’m having difficulty with your prevailing opinion, that Toronto needs to do a complete rebuild. And that the Kleiza signing, is a few years too soon (for any perceived run). Call it the BC retooling, or whatever term you choose, but I think it’s important to create a winning attitude.
.
That being said, I also believe Triano needs to develop the new guys, even at the expense of some regulars and/or role players (minutes). And while that might mean more losses, I still believe the intent should be to win. Losing may get us a high pick, but it can also have negative effects on the young guys. If Linas Kleiza helps in creating the right "atmosphere", that would be even better. Part of this "training period" should include play-off experience, even if it’s at the expense of 3 or 4 draft positions.
.
Agree re Kleiza
He is only one year older than Weems. Everyone considers Weems part of our future but people act like Kleiza is a 35 year old bum. He can be a useful role player now and in the future.
I thought the Raps should have gone for him before Hedo last year. Obviously not at Hedo money, but I figured he’d be good value.
The thing about Kleiza is that he isn’t a huge upside guy despite his age. I think he is a useful player, especially for a playoff team looking for scoring punch off the bench. He can quietly put up a bunch of points without people noticing and played with focus for Denver when other guys seemed confused.
It’s just hard to support signing guys to sizable deals who can only give a slight boost to the team while we are mucking around in the lottery. You could easily save that money and be better off for it in the future.
What's the HQ'S thought's on the N.O. rumor about Collins Okafor ETC.
Franchise what you think about the rumor that New Orleans is gonna give up Collins if someone is willing to take on 1 of there bigger contracts like Okafor or Posey or Pega ? N.O. is prob desperate like the raps were with Bosh to build a contending team around Paul b4 he is a free agent in 2011 i believe.
Acronym for RAPTORS = RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally
by RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally on Jul 10, 2010 9:41 PM EDT reply actions
I would take Peja in a heart beat because his contract comes off the books at the end of this season so there is no long term commitment and the Raptors get a young PG who has upside. There is a risk that Collison ends up being an average PG but freeing up Peja’s contract and having the ability to send out either Jack or Calderon and having a solid backup for them at least, is worth the risk that Collison may end up being nothing more than a good backup.
Here's a Plan:
Forget the trade exception for this year, and let the season play with the players we have, while trying to move Turk. This team, as currently constructed, gets you maybe 25-30 wins and maybe a top 5 pick next year.
Since you have the TPE for an entire year, you can go to the draft, and use the exception to acquire players or move up in the draft.
I simply don’t see why BC wouldn’t want to find out if Bargs can be a legit #1 option, and sort out the rest of this teams deficiencies over the course of next season; it’s not like the East is ripe for the picking anyway. Even if Bosh had stayed, this team would in all likelihood be on the outside looking in next year….AGAIN!
Top 3 goals for 2010-2011:
1. See if Bargs can be your PF and primary scorer.
2. Play the kids (Derozan, Johnson, Weems, Alabi, Davis) to see what you’ve got going forward.
3. Try and move the onerous contracts out (Turkoglu & Calderon); by maybe including some of the expiring deals (Banks/Evans).
It’s what Sam Presti would do……………….I think…….
Rob
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Jul 11, 2010 11:58 AM EDT reply actions
The plan
ok so here my plan for what BC should do this off season
1. Use TPE to get collison and okafor trade Jose and TPE
2.Trade Turk to a team who has 2 first round picks next year ( a high lottery one and a late first rounder) or trade turk for boris diaw
3.play alabi in the D-league for half a season so he develops his extremely raw game
4 starting line up should look like this
pg collison
sg weems
sf derozan
pf bargs
c okafor
first man of the bench is amir johnson
davis gets played some minuets maybe 15
Joey dorsey is a situational player
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 12:24 PM EDT reply actions
Because of the looming lockout
You might want to use the TPE as soon as possible to set the team up for post NBA Armageddon basketball. Thinking about all of these transactions so far, I suspect that the owners will play hardball and force a situation similar to what NHL owners did by shutting down a full season and forcing a clawback of current contracts. Imagine if all teams were forced to (and allowed to) cut one major contract without repercussions. Under that scenario, Turk would be gone after next season regardless. It would sort of be funny if the Miami Friends (Rachel, Monica, and Phoebe4) had to lose one of them after next year.
Miami should make the most money of any team next year. Not a bad idea to bank a great deal of cash, maybe win a championship, and then sit back and let the system fix itself.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 11, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
If the above scenario plays out with respect to being able to cut one major contract, it would be best to limit the number of bad contracts on one’s team to one, so trading Calderon and Turkoglu would make acquiring Okafor as part of the Collison acquisition not a bad idea, but I wonder if Collison is really that good or if he benefited from a situation similar to Sessions where he had one good year and then dropped off. What might make more sense is offering to take Brand from Philly to get one’s hands on Holiday which might be a more enticing prospect for the long-term than Collison.
by HQ Interloper on Jul 11, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually think Brands contract is better than Okafors because it’s a year shorter. Personally both of their contracts are too long for my tastes.
the about okafor is allows us to move bargnani back to the 4 which is a very good reason i would want him over brand
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt teams would get to cut one major contract. Maybe how they did it last time when you could buy it out and get the cap room back. Or how the NHL allows you to buy it out at a %.
Gilbert Arenas will pour millions into seeing that he gets the rest of his 80 million, Turkoglu his 40 million, etc, Joe Johnson his 120 million, etc…
One more thing
Does anybody get the sense that they are going to move Bargnani soon. Either Colangelo hasn’t made much mention of him this offseason so as not to put too much pressure on him or he is not in the team’s long term plans.
no they will not move bargnani, colangelo wants him to be the scoring leader
by raptors_run_the_show on Jul 11, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I highly doubt
Bargs gets moved, but the possibility is more realistic than it would have been a year (or even 2 months) ago
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
More on Collison from Chisolm along with other options for the TPE
http://tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=327198
DARREN COLLISON
I’m becoming something of a parody of myself with my affection for this jitterbug point guard from New Orleans, but he’s a perfect fit for the Raptors present and future and because he plays behind Chris Paul he isn’t an untradeable commodity like he would be in just about every other NBA city. He is an outstanding playmaker (averaging 9.1 assists in 37 starts last season), he’s a high-percentage shooter all the way out to the three-point line and his up-tempo playing style meshes perfectly with the athletic youth the team has acquired over the last year-and-a-half.
To get him, though, the Raptors will need to absorb one of the Hornets’ onerous salaries, and figuring out which one is tricky. They would love to get out from under the four years they have committed to Emeka Okafor ($11.5-million this season), but that trade made a lot more sense before the Raptors drafted two young bigs at the end of June. It’s unlikely that absorbing the two-years left on James Posey’s contract (two-years, approx. $6.6-million per) alone would get it done, so the Raptors would probably have to sacrifice a young prospect to get the Hornets to bite on that trade, which Colangelo is likely unwilling to do.
That brings us to what might be the most sensical option, which is trading Marcus Banks, Reggie Evans and $7-million from the TPE for Peja Stojakovic and Collison. Banks and Evans both expire at season’s end, just like Stojakovic does, but it gives the Hornets $7-million in relief today. It also gives the Hornets two smaller expiring contracts that might be easier to move in subsequent trades than Peja’s massive $15-million pact. With the Hornets looking to sell the team right now, lessening that financial burden could be a big selling point for the team.
In addition to Collision, this trade also gives the Raptors Peja’s big contract to play with at the trade deadline, and if they hang onto it it will just expire at the end of the year. The Raptors may even consider seeing if they could save a few pennies by buying out Stojakovic before the season even started, freeing themselves of the burden of finding minutes for him in at a crowded position.
Acronym for RAPTORS = RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally
by RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally on Jul 11, 2010 6:33 PM EDT reply actions
Not sure NO would
want Banks and Evans when they would still have to pay for their contracts this year (trying to immediately reduce costs), while the TPE would nearly cover it all straight up.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Collison is overrated
He had 1 awsome period duting the season and all of a sudden this guy is a must have> Calderon was way better than him.
still think
he would be worth taking a chance on.
He may not pan out, but then again he may. And it wasnt like those numbers he put up were for a week or two. It was nearly half a season (and his rookie season at that)
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jul 11, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Use part of TPE to get rid of Turk
If the TPE could be used to somehow get rid of Turkoglu that would be great. Bring back a player on a shorter higher contract. If anything like that was available then that would be great.
Also, signing Kleiza doesn’t fill me with joy, but at least if Turk is not performing this year Triano can sit him down and have a viable alternative.
Maybe overated - But how much did CP3 rubb of on him ?
Maybe he is overrated , but how can you say that when last yr was his rookie yr . If we can get him along with a expiring Pega contract it wouldnt be that much of a risk cause Collison has 1 more guaranteed yr and 2 team options yrs. & @ 23 yrs old is worth the gamble , if he can average anything close 2 his 18 pts & 9 ast in 37 games he started for a struggling NO club .he would be a steal. Maybe watching , listening & practicing with Paul rubbed off on him.
Acronym for RAPTORS = RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally
by RapsAreProbThinknOfRebuildingSeasonally on Jul 11, 2010 7:30 PM EDT reply actions
Yes but
We already have 3 pgs on the roster. He would be a good gamble if we needed a pg.
I don’t see how you can look at Calderon, Jack and Banks and think “yeah, the Raptors are set at point guard.” None of those guys are anywhere close to being great. You’re talking about two back-ups (Calderon and Jack) and a third-string combo guard (Banks).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jul 11, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The Ottoman is GONE to the desert?
How many small forwards does PHX need?
- Grant Hill
- Turk
- Childress
- Jared Dudley
- Earl Clark
and even:
- Gani Lawal
- Taylor Griffin
- Hakim Warrick (SF/PF)
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