Just How Tradable Is Hedo Turkoglu?
With the draft shaking out like it did and with Bosh's departure soon to become reality it looks like the Raptors are (or at least should be) heading for a full rebuild.
To kick start a rebuild Colangelo is going to have to move Hedo Turkoglu. The problem is it takes two to tango and it's a pretty empty dance floor.
Growing up I played a lot of video games (Baseball Stars, Play Action Football, Contra etc.). Actually, I still find time for my fair share of gaming. Currently I am hooked on Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.
In all those years of mashing the X and Y, I hit the reset button on the machine countless times, in most cases because I didn't like an outcome. That's the beauty of video games - if you don't like what's happening just start again. It's a stark contrast from real life where "Reset" just is not an option.
It's too bad such a button doesn't exist because if one did I am sure Bryan Colangelo would be mashing it mercilessly in hopes of getting out from Hedo Turkoglu's contract.
Everyone knows its a bad contract. Everyone also knows the situation in Toronto vis-a-vis Turkoglu is a bad one. Despite what appeared to be a forced apology to Toronto Raptors fans at the end of the season Turk was quick to announce he wanted a trade. He does not appear satisfied with the situation here and clearly neither are the fans. I don't need to remind you that Hedo was booed over the course of last year.
Can you imagine if he came back after demanding a trade? The booing would be hard on the ears.
Now with Ed Davis and Solomon Alabi in the fold, essentially two "project" picks, the Raptors look to be building for the future. I can only hope this hastens Colangelo's desire to move the Ottoman out of town and start a new. I for one don't want any young players exposed to a players whose "professionalism" is questionable at best.
Having made claims that there are a few teams with interest in Hedo Turkoglu, I reached out to the SB Nation family and asked the bloggers of each of the NBA teams to put on their General Manager hats to see if they would have any interest in Hedo.
The responses were less than encouraging.
From The Dream Shake (Houston Rockets):
Rockets wouldn't take Hedo, even if Bosh were to accept a deal to Houston. We've got one of the most generous owners in all of sports in Les Alexander, but he's only going to go over the luxury tax if it means bringing in championship pieces. Bosh is considered a championship piece; Hedo isn't at all, in my opinion. Think of what kind of defensive team the Rockets would become if they threw out a Brooks/Martin/Hedo/Bosh combo out there. We, essentially, would become the Toronto Raptors of the West. No offense, but that's not exactly what we'd like to do. We want A) Good defense, B) The addition of a single impact player, preferably not two, C) To save as much money as we can - Hedo would not be worth it just for the money alone.
From Rufus on Fire (Charlotte Bobcats):
If you want to trade Hedo and Jarrett Jack for Boris Diaw and Dasagana Diop, MJ would be strongly inclined to sign off on it, contingent on our ability to re-sign Tyrus Thomas. Hedo would probably be our starting PF. Don't know if you'd take that, but it's the most talent we can offer back, and even though both those guys have long contracts, you're out from under Hedo sooner. If you want shorter contracts, then we'd give you Nazr Mohammed and Alexis Ajinca with Diop, instead. Hedo's deal is so many years out, this is the sort of thing I think you'd be able to get for him.
From ClipsNation (LA Clippers):
Hedo is interesting from the Clippers perspective for a couple of reasons. LA has it's own overpaid and disappointing free agent in Baron, and also the Clippers have been looking for a versatile three for a long time. But while overpaid, Baron is still a very effective point guard, and trading him for Turk would save some money, but it would create a bigger hole at the one than the one they have at the three. There are those in Clips Nation who would happily trade Chris Kaman for Hedo straight up (and I'll admit that Kaman can be frustrating), but there's no way that the Clippers front office would be among them.
Perhaps the most appealing trade proposed came from Pounding the Rock (San Antonio Spurs):
I’d have a hard time believing the Spurs wouldn’t be interested if they could get rid of Jefferson in the deal. Just straight up, it would save the Spurs $12M next year (6 in salary, 6 in luxury tax). The questions are 1) whether or not the Spurs front office thinks he would fit. 2) whether they would want a sweetener to absorb the other 3 years of Hedo’s contract. And since I’m a HUGE fan of DeRozan I’ll just go ahead and say he would be a sufficient sweetener.
For me, the basics of a Hedo for Jefferson deal seem like they would work for both teams.
From my perspective if a Turk-Jefferson deal was available the Raptors should have done the deal yesterday.
On top of these responses there were a handful of no's - including At the Hive (New Orleans Hornets) which was disappointing given the recent FanPost that suggested a form of Hedo Turkoglu for Emeka Okafor deal. Frankly you would be hard pressed to find a better centre for Bargnani than Emeka Okafor even with his rather large contract. Unfortunately I can't see why the Hornets would want to add another overpaid SF to the stable while they continue to play James Posey and Julien Wright.
It's amazing just how quickly Hedo Turkoglu's value has dropped. Just last off-season he was the "big name" and now he has become a "big burden".
Nevertheless this is the situation that Colangelo finds himself in. If teams are even willing to consider Hedo it will be difficult to get anything of value in return. That doesn't change the fact that a deal has to be done. The team can spin the Turk situation however it wants but Raptors fans have very long memories and won't soon forgive last years debacle.
There are more than 1400 days left until Hedo's contract expires. For the Toronto Raptors sake they better be able to move him and his contract well before that.
Of course there is another opinionout there. There are two sides to every argument but I am hard pressed to believe that keeping Hedo around is good for the long term health of the franchise - it's time to blow it up. Besides, if Colangelo walks at the end of next season isn't the GM position for this team more appealing with a roster that doesn't have Hedo Turkoglu (and that features a bunch of young players growing together) than one that does? I'd think so.
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Comments
HST
I agree,that if we are going to rebuild,and go with a youth movement,we have to unload the Big Turk…..once those words come out of ones mouth ,they are difficult to put back in….all the back peddling in the world isn’t going to change what was said.I for one dont want him around “the kids”.Triano,will have his hands full this year,without having to kiss the ottoman’s ass.
I’ve said it on another blog….I truly feel that Beez,wouldn’t be that bad of a fit ,yes he did some stupid things,or did he just get caught doing some stupid things…but the kid could play ball,#2 pick that just got off on the wrong foot….Perhaps in a new environment ,he might just turn it around,with the added motivation to say f you to Miami .
I read the article with the "alternate view" on Turk
In my opinion it is hard to disagree with Chislom. The difference of view between “you two” seems to be that CHISHOLM has a “cold blood” view over the whole thing and you seem to passionate about it. As a metaphore it looks like Chislom and you are talking about the same lady’s virtutes, the difference being she dumped YOU for another man.
Hmmmm....
ok….
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 30, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Huh? Come again?
This site and the fans have been complaining about Hedo all year, well before he made it known he wanted out. I think Hedo is the one who feels dumped by the fans, and if we are using metaphors, we dumped him because he is a dirty whore who sucks at cooking.
Hmmmmm
you got me wrong, all I meant saying is Chislom analysis appears (to me) more “cool headed”, especailly in relation to the “what now” issue. I believe we all agree Hedo’s season was sub par and he has not performed up to his contract, or even close to it.
I'm with you Renato
Our problems are not going to be fixed overnight so lets not start pressing panic buttons.
Panic Button
I don’t think moving Hedo now is pressing the panic button. He will be a bad influence on the younger guys (“Hey guys if you complain enough they will change for you!”) and a good chunk of the fan base has turned against him.
Do you want to hear boo’s in the home opener?
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 30, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
So we want a GM who will make moves based on what the fanbase wants? I find it interesting the so many on this forum wanted Arenas but are so concerned about Hedo’s influence on the kids.
I’m not saying we accept a repeat of last year. If his attitude does not change, then we sit his ass down until it does and yes, benching $10 million players until they put forth the effort does send a good message to the kids.
Well, it’s not just about Triano – does BC want him showcased?
Plus, even on the bench he could be a distraction for the young players – that’s why NY paid Marbury to go away.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
know that sam mitchell is hired we don’t have to pay him anymore. so we should fire triano he doesn’t even make that much
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I wanted arenas but if you know anything about arenas he is actually a very hard worker and when he got drafted no one knew his name and his talent was limited he worked his ass off to be where he is now and to be as talented as he is he just had a mental blunder last year but i know arenas will be pissed off that everyone is writing him off so he will work really hard to get better
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
What will Arenas teach them? That hard work and dedication to the game will get you places. Wow, that is terrible. Who would want that.
Arenas may have made his mistakes but he will not jeopardize his money by making another mistake. You can argue that he is a ball hog but he would not be a bad influence on the kids. That is your prejudices showing.
Exactly – plus Arenas is a certified gym rat – there’s a reason he’s emerged from being a second-round pick in G State, he’s worked hard on his skills each off-season.
Ball-hog? Yes
A bit nutty off-the-court? Yes
Pre-injury, one of the best players in the game? Yes.
Hedo is no gym rat…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jun 30, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
cmrm123 and Renato
Removing Turk would not be a panic move or an emotional response. Let’s look at the facts:
- Turkaglu SUCKS DONKEY BALLS!!!
- He plays NO defense
- He was out of shape ALLL SEASON
- His contract is one of the WORST IN THE LEAGUE!!!!
- He is over 30!!!!
- Would be a HORIFIC example/mentor to younger players
- He publicly stated THAT HE DOESN’T WANT TO BE HERE FOR CHRIST’S SAKE!!!
If we can get some poor sucker to take his boated fat ass/contract for the love of all that is holy TAKE THE GODDAMNED DEAL!!
But knowing Colangelo, instead of admitting his mistake (see Andrea Bargnani) he won’t trade away Turk, because what will come back would be emabarrasing.
Agree about Turk, disagree about BC
For all his faults he has not been shy to correct his mistakes (Fred Jones, JO).
All I can say is: Hedo for Eddy Curry, straight up. That’s how desperate it’s going to get – an expiring deal is the best we can hope for.
by RaptorsAddict on Jun 30, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d love to ask Colangelo why ever thought it was a good idea to sign Hedo in the first place for MAS11’s point above, none of which were exactly “news.”
I mean, wasn’t there a damn good chance he was overpaying the guy and the fans would turn on him? BC has been here for four years now, he should have a pretty good idea of what this fan base and media expect.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jun 30, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I see Hedo going to Orlando since they have already talked abt it
or San Antonio Spurs because it makes perfect sense for both teams. Bobcats would also be another option but we’d be getting back bad players with bad contracts. In any event, I don’t think trading Hedo will be the difficult part, it’s deciding what you get back and if it’s even worth it to trade him
Oh man – that rumoured Pietrus + Gortat for Hedo trade has me salivating.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I doubt the Magic would do that since Hedo is a burden at that contract number with little contribution
While Pietrus & Gortat are valued contributors for the Magic at their contract numbers. I suspect the only way the Magic would trade for Hedo is if it meant a sign & trade for Bosh as well, and the only way that works for you guys is if you are willing to take Vince back for one season. Without looking at cap implications (but I’m pretty sure I’m close), the trade would look like this:
Tor: Turk, Bosh
Orl: Pietrus, Gortat, Carter
I’m guessing you guys want no part of Vince even if he is an expiring contract.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jun 30, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
In hearing all of those boos against Vince when the Magic visited last season, I had always assumed any trade with Toronto regarding Vince would be a non-starter. In that case, I personally would be ecstatic with that trade on the Magic side.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jun 30, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
In a heartbeat.
The opportunity to see VC booed 41 times per year is making me salivate.
Plus that trade = Pietrus and Gortat (good players on good contracts with future trade value or player value) + big expiring deal + Hedo leaves.
For me, that deal would be a steal and put us well on our way to rebuilding.
by RaptorsAddict on Jun 30, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool, one of those rare trade ideas where both sides are happy
At least from the fan’s perspective. I still love Hedo (I totally understand why you cannot stand him though), but not at his contract; however, I’m willing to put up with it if it meant an elite power forward comes with him.
Even though the Hippopotamus lacks a stinger for a tail, a truly wise man would rather be sat on by a bee. ~ Banacek
by funny80sguy on Jun 30, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah the booing would be priceless, and would cap off the mess Colangelo has made.
But to RaptorsAddict’s point, at least in that scenario Toronto gets some useful players and expiring deals.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jun 30, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Since we’d be taking on VC – I think BC might push for a couple draft picks as well to sweeten the pot (because Bosh is going) – but other than that I could see this working.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again I think yall are forgetting that Bosh would have to agree to sign in Orlando. Orlando has Howard who he is buddies with and the same tax happiness that Miami does but they would have to take HST and I don’t think Bosh wants anything to do with him. As soon as Turks name is mentioned I think Bosh laughs and tells Toronto to go screw themselves.
Really? Even to play beside Dwight, when his major concerns have been money (check), winning (uh, check) and playing beside a true centre (check)?
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Why the panic
There seems to be a general agreement that we need to rebuild. If so, why the panic to trade Hedo when his value is at its lowest possible level. Everyone needs to take a pill. I find it interesting that the Magic and Spurs, the teams Hedo spent the previous six years with seem to be the ones that have the most interest in him. Is it not possible we did not use him correctly.
I’m not defending Hedo for last year. He was out of shape and his head was not in the game. So lets move forward. Promise Hedo a trade during the season on the condition he is in shape and putting forth the effort. Use him more appropriately. Have PJ stay on his ass. Get his value to a more reasonable level. But lets not panic right now when all we can get is someone else’s problems.
I think we all know the Raptors didn’t use him correctly and I am not saying he sucks, I just do not think he can be a featured player and at his salary on this team that would be his role. He may never actually fit into Toronto’s offense, unless they decide to build around him and do you really want that?
Yes
Build around him, showcase him for 6 month, a year, 2 years, whatever it takes. On a bad team his stats can be inflated. Also agree with cmrm123 that we should not trade him at the low point – it’s not like his value can go any lower. Except if he shows up fat again.
by RaptorsAddict on Jun 30, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Except if he shows up fat again.
Awesome ha ha.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jun 30, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree
They used Hedo as if he was a point guard when the man can hardly dribble they ball ,all he should be used for is a pick and roll shooter, and post up, that’s it, he ain’t a all star that we thought he was , i never thought he was but the Gm thought so and the coach lmao
ps Triano Sucks
by Real raptors fan on Jun 30, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
not a matter of panic but a matter of good management
If Hedo is still on this roster by October that would be one of the worse pieces of mgmt i’ve seen BC perform. Between his age, his performance last year on and of the court, the fans dislike for him and his comments this summer, BC would be out of his mind to bring Hedo back. If he brought him back and he underachieved and misbehaved again, that would be the worse for BC. I can bet my house Hedo is getting traded as soon as BC figures out what he’s getting for Bosh. Once the Bosh transaction is complete, Hedo is next gauranteed.
I'm all in favour of trading Hedo now
BUT, not if we have to give up young assets to sweeten the deal or have to take on a worse contract (eg Arenas).
thats not a fair assesment at all
moving Hedo just because he wants it would be worse mgmt than him still being on the roster. (what kind of example is that for the younger players)
Regardless of the concern over hedo’s ‘influence’, moving him and getting worse contracts, players or attitudes would be much worse than keeping him (even if it means him brooding on teh bench)
I’m all for Hedo being moved, but not just for anything or just because… it needs to still benifit the team more (in some fashion) than him being here.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 30, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t him being gone benefit that team? I agree we shouldn’t be taking back longer and worse contracts for the guy but if we can take back a bad contract with less years then maybe we can get this thing turned around in 3 years instead of 5. Wouldn’t that be worth making a trade even if it nets us little back?
Plus, you know, we trade Hedo’s 4 years for someone’s 3 years, then someone’s 3 years for 2 years, etc.
Someone else will always have a shorter bad contract and see value in our bad contract.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
but you said
“If Hedo is still on this roster by October that would be one of the worse pieces of mgmt i’ve seen BC perform”
not within in certain conditions, not aslong as the benifits out weigh the cost, just aslong as he is still on this roster….
I have no problems with taking back a ‘not as bad’ contract (size, length, ability etc), but not just moving him because the team could have anything else. Him being on this roster come October is not as bad a mgmt move as him not being here and what BC gets back is even worse.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 30, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Michael Beasley really a bad consolation prize for Bosh?
I know it’s off topic, but would it really be that bad of a return for Bosh? This was a guy that going into his draft year was basically viewed as No. 1 until Rose’s exceptional tournament run.
In Toronto, where he doesn’t have to play under the shadow of Wade, he could blossom into something. As we know from the Turk experiment, systems have a lot to do with how well a player performs.
Doesn’t hurt the Raptors to accumulate as much legitimate young talent as possible, as it can always be flipped for better fits in the future. Even if the trade were Beasley and an exception, straight up for a sign and traded Bosh, so as to land a Tony Parker in exchange for Jarrett Jack, the Raptors would be a better off for it.
If a couple of years ago someone offered Tony Parker and the #2 overall pick for Chris Bosh, it would be worth listening to.
As for Turk. I’d do that Diaw deal in a heartbeat. Rebounding, passing, solid player who can defend multiple positions. The laziness might be equivalent but we’d be better defensively so it makes sense.
Yes
Here’s the book on Beasley:
- Drug addict
- Doesn’t play any defense whatsoever
- Shows up one in every five or so games
- Malcontent
- Had to go to rehab
- Ball hog
- LEGITIMATE CONCERNS ABOUT HIS MENTAL WELLNESS!!
And that’s all in the first 3 years of his NBA career! So umm.. Yes, that is a bad consolation prize.
drug addict?
because they found a bag of weed?
the raptors could easily pump his stats up to 22pt/8-9rebs and be able to trade him.
our youth culture might be exactly what he needs to adjust himself- johnson, weems and derozan are class acts and could help right the ship.
He’s 21 with tons of upside – alot better than losing bosh for nothing.
If he's a drug addict...
…then the NBA will have to be shut down – there is a reason they don’t test for weed.
Plus, he’s 21.
by RaptorsAddict on Jun 30, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
A decent return in terms of age, potential, contract. But as for his on-court contribution, he isn’t particularly motivated right now, and has character/effort issues. Better than nothing and worth taking for the few mil it takes to hold his rights.
My take on Beasley
Some of you may recall that I was a HUGE Beasley fan in college (yes, I own a K-State Beasley jersey in fact.) People forget that he was a monster, he absolutely dominated competition on a level that hadn’t been seen since Carmello Anthony.
Check his stats:
26 points, 12 rebounds, 1.3 steals, 1.6 blocks, 53% FG, 78% FT%, 38% 3-PT%
Not too shabby.
However it’s obvious that he’s gone off the rails to a certain extent and what scares me, is that if couldn’t get it together playing with a guy like Wade, and FOR guys like Riley and Spoelstra, how the hell is he going to get it together with guys like Bargs, Weems and Triano???
This probably deserves a blog post but for me, this trade amounts to “better than nothing,” although I’d prefer picks and trade exceptions at this point.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Franchise on Jun 30, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, we would still get 9 million in TPE, Beasley is expiring (if we don’t pick up his option), and picks would hopefully also be involved.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I say we give beasly a chance maybe he realizes he messed up and plays better. if he doesn’t play better we let him walk after a season
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
the eternal....
optimist
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 30, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Figger the Raps S+T Bosh for Melo? Then Hedo for Gortat/Pietrus.
Jose/Jack/Banks
Demar/Sonny
Melo/Pietrus
Bargs/Amir/Davis/Evans
Gortat
Then who knows what BC moves Jose/Jack/Banks/Evans for…
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
In my mind, I truly think that Bryan Colangelo will actually hesitate to trade Turkoglu if Turkoglu is at all open to returning. Make no mistake about it, Turk will hear the boos next year. But just listen to Colangelo’s conversation on The Fan again from the other day, and you’ll hear about how he believes the team will not be very good if he ends up trading both Turk and Bosh. And since Bosh is as good as gone, that sure sounds like a guy who is not exactly willing to part with Turk.
Here’s my question to everyone though… Does it make more sense to trade Turk this year when his value is (arguably) incredibly low, or does it make more sense to tough it out a year, see if Turk can make some sort of impact on a team that will need an impact player, and roll the dice and see if his value increases over the season? To be honest, I don’t know if Turk’s value can come back as a Raptor, but those are the things I’ve been thinking about lately when it comes to Turkoglu.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 30, 2010 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
Why do we HAVE to do anything with Turk right now? If we’re hitting the “reset button” it really doesn’t matter. We can have Turk coming off the bench if we want. But ultimately, if he plays and gets more touches, his numbers are going to go up.
We tell him.. you star for this team.. get your value up.. and we’ll ship you out of town. You suck.. you stay..
That’s my point. I know we might be in for a year of going to ACC games to boo Turk constantly, but we just might have to suck it up to get any value back for Turk.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 30, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
booing Turk
will end the minute he has a good game.
Fans are fickle, they forget everything else when good things happen with a player/team.
If the Raps are absolute trash all year and Turk doesn’t play well the fans will boo.
If the team is decent and/or Turk plays well the fans won’t.
But to the main part of your question… if there is a move that makes sense, and Turk is in no way part of the future plans (which would amaze me if he is) then you pull the trigger. Other than that I guess you hold out. Every year is one less on his contract, thereby (although ackwardly) increasing his value.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Jun 30, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not so sure
I don’t think fans will be that forgiving for things he’s said and things that he refuses to apologize for. These are things that are going to stick on him for quite a while and though I’m sure no one is going to boo him in a 30 point game, I also don’t think he’s going to have many of those games with this team. To you and me, I don’t think the booing matters, but to the image conscious MLSE and Bryan Colangelo? That could be it.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 30, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
He did have a 17 rebound game which is more than Bargnani has had combined through his career (just kidding).
actually...
It was Bargs who had the 17 rebound nigh, against the Pacers if I am not mistaken….anyway…
No offense but sometimes you have to get worse in order to get better. I am stating to like what I see in NJ and with one more kick at the lottery can next season they may just have enough on their roster to blossom into a contender. True we could hold onto HST and suck with him just as well as without him but here is my nightmare scenario, HST decides to show everyone how wrong they were about him and starts kicking ass. BC decides not to trade him because he wants to save his job and we make the playoffs, lose our 1st round pick to Miami, get knocked out in 1 round and then have HST demand another trade after the lockout is done only he cannot be traded because the league has a hard cap that everyone is already over. Say hello to HST for 4 more years.
No, I agree with you man. I just don’t know how long that phase is going to take to get started. And that scenario you outlined isn’t just scary, it’s also pretty historically accurate with how Colangelo seems to evaluate talent.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Jun 30, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
if we can trade jose and bosh then i think turk can do well. turk is not a bad player as i have stated numerous times he just didnt have the “ball” in his hands a lot due to jose and bosh if we can trade Jose for some defense then turk can do well
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The best deal for Turk
I believe Richard Jefferson is going into the final year of his deal worth $14 mil. If we can trade Turk and pieces (like Evans or Banks’ expiring contract) for Jefferson (and then even buy him out) we are laughing. That’s an extra $14 mil in cap space for next season… Then we are in COMPLETE rebuild mode, and we can turn the page on this mess…
OH and one mor thing...
Then when BC’s contract expires next year, we will have a high draft pick and a boat load of cap space to attract a COMPETENT GM!
…. who, 4 years later, will be run out of town when the golden boy shine rubs off, his high lottery pick is not a franchise player, and he’s filled the cap space with players the fanbase hates.
Yay!
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup!
Incompetence will not be tollerated! If you want to continue to worship a failure of Manager that has made countless bad decisions be my guest… I expect a bit more. Forgive me for expecting success.
well there are only a few good GM’s out there the rest are just like BC some even worse
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
unless mitch kupchak resigns or Danny Ainge I’m ok with BC
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Done Deal
Anyone else hear about the Miami radio guy who says Bosh to Miami is a done deal? Apparently Chalmers, Beasley and Joel Anthony coming back.
Don’t trust him, but it’s out there.
i like chalmers good point guard not too shabby i would do this deal if we can send either jose or hedo back preferably Hedo.
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
No way they do that – if they do the deal as currently constructed, they could then sign LBJ.
I just hope a pile of draft picks are coming our way: our pick, Miami’s 2011, 2013 1st rounders, 2012, 2014 2nd rounders
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a horrible deal? That’s problaby worst than the vince Carter deal..there better be some draft picks involved…oh and great articule what made it better was you mentioned play action football and contra..that just made my day lmao
by sherwin316 on Jun 30, 2010 12:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LeBatard is actually a good radio man
Used to listen to him on the Fan on Sunday mornings when they filled the timeslot with American Radio. He shows up on the ESPN Sunday morning round table once in a while. If he’s saying it’s a done deal, it might be, but this is the age of misinformation and agents might be floating him some bad info.
Here’s the thing, Miami is taking a HUGE RISK, if they only land two of these three players because in the case of injury it would be one of these players with minimum salary, borderline NBA, or end of the road veteran types trying to hold things together.
They basically have to land all three to withstand the rigours of an 82 game season AND not be tired out by the time the playoffs roll around.
One other thing. What impact would USA basketball obligations play in the scenario.
Bosh may choose not to play, but would Wade and LeBron forgo commitments in preparation for the “super” season? What control would the Heat try to exert If all three want to play for the National team this summer?
Again, if this super team comes to fruition, there will be so many other issues to consider that it should make things really interesting.
by HQ Interloper on Jun 30, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If this deal gets done – the heat will have three players signed at 16.6 million (assuming LBJ signs) – that’s 50 million in contracts. So they can actually afford a $6 million (read: mid-level) player before they start signing guys with minimum and vet-minimum contracts.
The question is: who? Maybe a $10 million type player would sign for the mid-level to get to play with those guys? I really think Riley will find “the 3” some help besides min contracts.
Main thing for me is: this is only possible if BC takes back those contracts – so Riley better be giving up a few draft picks to make it worth our while.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Miami is under the cap so they will not have a MLE
Basically the three would be surrounded by second round picks and vets playing for the minimum.
They are 6 million under the cap – so they effectively can get a MLE salatied player.
I said that in my post.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm no cap expert but according to Larry Coon
Miami Heat
Maximum cap room: 1.67 MCs (with Wade re-signed); 2.64 MCs (if Wade leaves)
What needs to happen to get to this amount?: This may be counterintuitive, but the Heat gain more cap room if Wade becomes a free agent than if he invokes the option in his contract to stay with the team through 2010-11. Wade needs to become a free agent. The Heat already have declined the team option on Kenny Hasbrouck. They also released James Jones, whose $4.65 million salary was guaranteed for just $1.86 million — clearing an additional $2.79 million from the team’s books.
What can they do to get more? There’s not much left to trim from their roster. To keep Wade and go after both James and Bosh, they’d need to convince at least one of the free agents to take less. Even moving Michael Beasley and Mario Chalmers for nothing wouldn’t create enough cap room to sign all three star free agents at the full maximum.
Beasley: 5 mill
Chalmers: 850,000
1.67 MCs = 27.722 million
27.722+5+850,000 = 33.572 —> this is enough to sign all three. (Wade already re-signed, 2 at 16.6 apiece) and leaves very little. So at the very least they could get all three (don’t know what he’s talking about them not being able to).
According to hoopshype, they have only Beasley and Chalmers under contract, so even if you include Wade and Jones’ buyout, they should still have 56.1-1.86-16.6-5-.85 = 36.79 million = Wade+Bosh+LBJ + 3.59 million left over for a mid-level guy if he wants to take a paycut. Only difference is I didn’t know about the buyout salary still on their roster. Don’t know where that 3 million went in his calculation.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said, I don’t fully understand the cap but I think the difference has to do with the nba counting cap holds against empty roster spots which Miami has a whole wack of. In Larry Coon’s discussion of Chicago, he states that "Dumping James Johnson, Taj Gibson, Chris Richard and Rob Kurz would not generate the needed cap room — the cap holds associated with the four vacated roster spots would consume much of the cap room that would be freed by their departure. "
I’m guessing that explains the difference between his and your numbers.
Miami will renounce their FA rights for everyone except Wade so technically the cap holds they will have afterward will be Beasley Wade and Chalmers. If they are trading Beasley and Chalmers to Toronto then they would only have Wade and Bosh with Wade still unsigned. The complexity of the cap holds means that Wades cap hold is higher then his actual contract will be (if I understand the cap hold correctly).
Unfortunately for me, he is right about the cap holds – if you have less than 12 players (say, 3 players), your team salary will effectively have those 3 players’ salaries and 9 minimum salary holds.
This was my oversight.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You are also assuming that all three players agree to the max. It is possible that they all sign for less than the max knowing that by doing so it helps the team get a few decent veterans to fill out their roster. Miami doesn’t have any 1st round picks holding down cap space so they can choose to sign all of their 2nd rounders after they have filled in the rest of the roster or use them in trades with other teams (say 2 of them for one other player type deal).
Money money money money!
Not gonna happen.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Miami could sign all three
All I was saying was that if I am understanding Larry Coon, who is supposed to be the guru, there are cap holds associated with empty roster spots which would mean that all Miami could do is sign players for the min (unless the three accept well below the max…not likely).
Any team can get the ability to use the MLE by spending up to the soft cap.
There have been teams under the cap by a million who have signed players for $1m and released the guy instantly, just to be able to use the MLE. How do I get that job…
That’s only true if they are signing their own free agents – signing free agents doesn’t make you a cap team. You have your cap room to spend and that’s it.
If you have your own free agents which have a cap hold that puts you above the cap – you have to sign them first to be able to use the mid-level.
do you guys know when davis is going to be in Tronto or if hes already here. I want to hear from him
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions
He doesn't have a passport yet...
nor does anyone else in his family. He will need to get one before crossing the border.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 30, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think July 6th was mentioned by one of his family members. I’m sure the Raps could get the passport thing accelerated.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya i want him in Toronto so i can hear more from him
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 30, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I would like to see Hedo’s play with/if chris bosh leaves…with more ball time for hedo this way.
I've often thought of becoming a golf club
by Caps Canadian Connection on Jun 30, 2010 8:37 PM EDT reply actions
Hedo has to go
A trade of Hedo is the only solution to this problem. If he isn’t traded prior to the season, Hedo will share the nickname “boo” with other notable athletes from Toronto sports teams such as Larry Murphy (Leafs), Vince Carter and even Vernon Wells last year.
With that said, I agree with the general sentiment that teams aren’t clamouring for the services of an aging, expensive swingman. Richard Jefferson opted out of his contract with the Spurs (I can’t possibly imagine why he thinks that is a good idea) which removes that as a possibility for a trade. I think the best case scenario would be to take on another player who is struggling in their new environment. While I believe that Hedo can be productive in a good system, his contract is absolutely prohibitive from any trades considering the role he would likely play on a new team as a 3rd/4th option. RJ was a good starting point but I doubt that is a likely option now without any comparable contracts to trade.

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