Reality Bites
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 9:31 AM EDT
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Bryan Colangelo spoke on Toronto's Fan590 radio station yesterday evening and while there wasn't much "news" to his comments perhaps, it certainly was a heavy dose of reality, one that raised Franchise's blood temperature a good few notches...
"At some stage you cannot have such an outflow of talent and if Chris leaves, and I've gone ahead and moved Hedo Turkoglu in a separate deal, and we don't have a lot coming back to show for it, this team, probably won't be very good..." - Bryan Colangelo
Well there you have it folks.
The exact scenario most of us at the HQ were ranting and railing against for the past season plus looks to be about a week away.
Bryan Colangelo spoke on the Fan590 yesterday evening and essentially hit Raptors' fans over the head with a dose of reality. While he didn't go as far as saying the team would be competing for a lottery pick again next year, his tone was certainly quite different from that of six weeks ago when he spoke to the media at the season's conclusion.
-What happened to the "we're not far off" line of thought?
-What happened to the "it's not the doom-and-gloom situation everyone is making it out to be?"
Remember, this is the same man who said the following at his end-of-season presser:
"It's important that this so-called frenzy that's occuring right now, this very negative picture that's being painted about our situation is not as doom and gloom as many want to make it. And I say this with great confidence. We have already gone through an assessment...of where we are, where we fell short, what areas of weakness we have, and what we need to address. And those issues will be resolved and be fixed in this off-season. And we're starting at a place much further along I would say than some people would like to think."
I'm not sure about you, but losing Bosh, having an unsavory Hedo Turkoglu, and relying on the likes of Sonny Weems and DeMar DeRozan doesn't seem to be "starting at a place much further along than some people think."
And this is where my anger comes in.
I'm not angry at Bosh. He put in his time valiantly, unlike Vince Carter, and while he hasn't taken the team to the proverbial promised land, the fact of the matter is that he doesn't impact the game the way the LeBron's and Kobe's do, and hasn't been surrounded by the proper talent to allow for that maximize impact. He's within his full rights to move on and if so, I wish him the best of luck.
No, my anger is directed towards Bryan Colangelo, who somehow took a team with a solid core and one of the top 3 power forwards in the game, and reduced it to a potential 28 win team with little cap flexibility, no star power and a host of immovable pieces.
As Howland put it so appropriately in a comment to yesterday's post:
"I have no doubt Rob Babcock could have gotten this team to this point."
In fact he did.
He was the one who started the rebuild and for all the shimmer and shine of Bryan Colangelo, he barely improved upon what Babcock had started.
These are facts.
-An average of 40 wins a season under his tenure (sub .500.)
-Two playoff births yet none that lasted past the first round.
-An Atlantic Division title in a year when the rest of the division averaged 33 wins.
Folks that's just not very good, and now it sounds like Colangelo is going to have to start all over again.
Again, I like the rebuild idea, it's something I've been advocating for a couple of seasons now and why I despised the band-aid approach that saw Toronto ship off JO for rent-a-Marion, and the Hedo Turkoglu signing. There were major cracks in this team's foundation from day one, and yet management was simply too proud to address them, didn't have the foresight to understand their impact, or a combination of both. So yes, I'm on board with tearing things down and starting over.
However four years into a GM's tenure, this shouldn't be the case, and that's why this whole situation makes my blood boil, and should make yours as well. At this point Colangelo should have been fine-tuning the roster for a push deeper into the playoffs. It's not like he came in and had to spend the next three seasons clearing out bad contracts! No, Rob Babcock did most of that! (Whether you agreed with the way he did it is another topic of course.)
Colangelo came in talking about building a contender and has instead delivered a team that now sounds like it could be centered around a player who bad-mouthed the franchise and publicly stated he hoped to be anywhere but here, just 3 weeks ago!
As for Bosh, well, this is the crux of everything for me.
BC had numerous "kicks at the can" as I've been calling it, to get things right around him and simply didn't. Not only that, when the writing was on the wall about CB4's possible departure, he refused to make a move to try and mimize the damage.
In his talk yesterday on The Fan590 he acknowledged this but stated that the offers he was getting for Bosh were simply not up to his standards:
"...it was never anything that (made me say) yeah, let's fold the cards up now and trade away our best player so we can avoid losing him for nothing..."
Give me a break.
Are you telling me that you couldn't have at least gotten something useful for Bosh last season? Not even a second-round draft pick or some expiring deals?
The truth is, and Colangelo completes the quote above by admitting to this in the radio interview , BC refused to see the writing on the wall, over-estimated how good his team was going to be, and thought the best course of action would be to ride it out.
Now, his hands are tied and if Bosh decides to go to a team like Miami who can pay him max dollars without having to give up anything in return, Toronto is screwed.
And to that end, I thought this quote from the interview was particularly painful to hear:
"Whether or not we get something back is out of our control, it was always out of our control..."
That's not what BC had been preaching the past couple of seasons. Raptors fans seemed convinced that not only was there going to be a guaranteed sign-and-trade situation at worst, but also that in all likelyhood, a very talented player was coming in exchange for Bosh's services!
Now?
(Insert cricket noise.)
If nothing comes back in return for Bosh, then it's time to make a run at Harrison Barnes and co. in next year's draft. and clear the deck.
Because to me even with the departure of Chris Bosh looming on the horizon, an even scarier thought is that Colangelo doesn't actually rebuild. Instead, he tries to string together some combination of over-the-hill and/or over-paid vets for next season, protecting his ego and attempting to keep the corporate folks on board thus prolonging the inevitable.
That simply can't happen and hopefully BC at least has the guts to admit this to himself, even if he can't to the casual fan or season ticket holder.
Colangelo needs to get real about what he now has to work with; a number of over-paid and under-performing established players, some interesting yet completely unproven youth, and a few solid pieces like Jarrett Jack.
He needs to do everything he can to clear the dead weight and really look towards the future, because there's nothing worse than trying to sell a team with little promise to fans and business.
Oh...and on that "looking towards the future" note, Bryan, I've taken the liberty of signing you up in the "Sam Presti School of General Management."
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good piece
really surprised to hear BC come out and say the things he did. so interesting to hear say things, and then 6 months later say the opposite. It was always out of our control? Signing Hedo – somebody was holding a gun to your head? better the rebuild from that point, instead of what transpired.
As for Bargs – they should have, and still should, bring in a coach specifically for HIM, to help speed his development; he’s the no.1 draft pick, you’re paying him 10 mil a year, but you can’t afford a personal trainer to help him along? really? that’s out of your control too, I suppose?
sheesh. this resembles the Maple Laughs more and more, double-talk included.
There was definitely no gun to his head with Hedo, Marion, Primoz Brezec ha ha…any of them. This is all his own doing.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Excelletn write up.
Couldn’t agree more. The most disturbing thing is we are now right where we (as writers and readers on this site) thought we would be as far back as 12 months ago. If us laymans could see this coming like a title wave and BC couldn’t, he is not fit to be a senior manager.
He has consistantly mis evaluated talent and the overall “fit” of players on this roster, he has afforded Bargani indefensible protection and undervalued defense and athleticisim. However, the most concerning thing for me is BC’s overall approach to basketball, his basketball ideology/philosophy is misguided. Basketball is a team sport, that requires teammates that work hard, commit to the team and sacrifice. BC’s vision of a successfull Basketball team is one that effective offensively… only. He makes decisions and evaluates effectiveness and talent based on one component of a very dynamic game. The amazing thing here is, those qualities, that I mentioned above (work hard, commit to the team and sacrifice adn defense) are the qualities that Toronto fans laud. Remeber how this city embraced JYD, Oakeley, Alvin Williams!!!
All that said, I don’t want him anywhere near a rebuild. This has to end at some point, and no point better than now. MLSE needs to fire BC, (only on the hook for one more year of his contract) and begin the search in earnest for a competant GM that is not committed to Bargani and the other mistakes and can come in here and clean house.
If us laymans could see this coming like a title wave and BC couldn’t, he is not fit to be a senior manager.
Absolutely.
Again, are there better options out there? Maybe not on paper, but can you as a fan really believe he’ll do a better job with this rebuild? He already was in charge of one, and it was hardly a smash hit!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Call me crazy
But I would, seriously, prefer to have Bill Simmons as our GM, by a country mile. I know that sounds crazy, but I wholeheartedly believe that the obsessive compulsive NBA amateur capologist and trade-machine guru that is The Sports Guy would do better than the pretty-boy, corporate-speak beneficiary of nepotism that is BC.
Toss in all the extra media coverage, and it more than makes up for any loss of fan interest. Plus, you know on day 1 he puts out a press release that says, “I am going to do everything in my power to do my best impersonation of Sam Presti, Kevin Pritchard and Daryl Morey. Oh, and we are now officially in rebuild mode. Sincerely, the GM”.
by RaptorsAddict on Jun 29, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Not crazy at all – I’d prefer it as well…the GM of Common Sense would not have paid Hedo a gazillion dollars.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 30, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
It was definitely a surprise to hear BC’s admission that Bosh is gone and that there is a distinct possibility that he is gone with nothing in return. In retrospect, it’s easy to say that we should have pulled the best deadline deal available (even if it was some expirings or 2nd rd picks, though expirings wouldn’t help us get away from Hedo’s fat contract). BC didn’t say there were no offers, just no offers that rocked his world. So you’re probably right in that he at some point did get low-ball offers but could you imagine how the Raptors fanbase would feel had he made such a deal? Remember how we felt when we trade VC for a bag of balls?
Anyways, I think BC’s newfound reality check stems from the fact that the Bulls and Miami both cleared more than enough space to sign two max players outright. Prior to the draft, only the Knicks had enough room for possibly two players, and well, they’re the Knicks. I think BC was banking on us having more leverage in s&t situations whereby one of those teams would need our help in a trade to acquire a second star in Bosh. Unfortunately, if Bosh chooses any of those teams, he can simply sign outright and we get nothing for return.
While I am most definitely unhappy about how the Bosh situation turned out, in addition to the already volatile Hedo situation, if we do choose to go through a rebuild, BC has some decent pieces that he accumulated to do this. Jack, Calderon, Bosh (if he s&t), Weems and even Hedo can net us back some valuable players/ prospects/ draft picks for a rebuild. While BC has failed to build us a championship team, he does always seem to find good value players as diamond-in-the-rough types so I will give him credit for that.
At this point, with the pieces we have, a full-blown rebuild with Bargnani and DD seem like the best move. Given BC’s history with the Suns and his ability to get good value in trades thus far, I am willing to allow BC to handle the reigns during a rebuild. Our ever declining performance since our division championship is unsettling but given BC’s ability to completely turnover rosters (two seasons in a row now), he might just be the man for the job
I agree with TBJ
Colangelo has done some creative moves, which have not worked out. Yet some that have with Weems and Amir, both of whom were discredited as foolish pickups at the time when divesting us of a player (Delfino) who refused to play here.
Bosh gone…oh well. Would you have truly pulled a trade deal when the team was playing beyond expectations in late winter? I doubt it. Had the team continued to play at that pace Bosh would have stayed, the group would have moved to shore up defense in the off-season, and all would be rosy. Except it wouldn’t have been.
1- we would still have Bosh, and I am not convinced he is a piece to build around (and I don’t see it in Bargnani either, but at least Bargs will play third fiddle and be effective as he doesn’t want any part of being the go-to guy). Bosh slowed up the offense, caved on defense, and stayed mellow through it all. He had to be the man, likes to be the man, and the TEAM suffered for it. He is a good player, but only one or two coaches in the league can effectively put him on his ass and make him play the way he needs to play for the team. He never did that in Toronto. He is the true piece that Colangelo needed to be rid of to make a team, but in no way could he have simply dumped Bosh without a revolt.
2- Bosh stopped playing. His level of play was completely different in December/January than it was after the trade deadline. He chose this at that time.
i also agree
colangelo has not completely messed up there are worse teams in the league then the raptors
and i feel we already have a youth movement going in the young guns they should be the center of our team next year and lets see what they can do. i think we will be bad for one season after we might be able to get some top 10 players in the draft
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget...
he was going to cut Weems. It was simply for cap purposes he was included.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention
In relation to your note Maleko, we never discredited the Amir and Weems pick-ups. In fact, I’m 100 sure that I was the ONLY person in the media who thought Weems was a steal, to the extent that I asked BC about it during the Media Day, and he essentially admittted Weems was a throw-in on the Amir deal.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
The Wake-Up Call
TBJ, I think you’re bang on regarding BC’s wake-up call. He really believed that there wouldn’t be many teams able to sign Bosh outright, and therefore put all his eggs in the Hedo basket, hoping a playoff birth (and maybe more) would be enough to bring CB4 back.
We all know how that turned out.
That’s why I think his “perfect storm” comment was made – it almost sounded like an incredulous admission that he never thought all these teams would be able to clear space.
This annoys me though considering COLANGELO HELPED MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR ONE OF THE THEM. It was the JO trade that cleared the bulk of the room for Miami, not to mention throwing in Marcus Banks.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
How exactly did the JO trade help Miami clear space???
I see Marcus Banks (~5 mil) but other than that, they traded Marion, who was expiring last year. All they had to do was sign 1-year contracts with that cap space and they’d have cleared it anyway.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Marion was only about 15 million or so while Oneal was 23. How are you going to sign 23 million in one year contracts? In essence, the trade allowed Miami to remain competitive for one more year and then leave them with a huge amount of cap space going into this summer. Not to mention, that BC gave them a 2nd round (non-guaranteed contract player) to add to their collection. This will allow Miami to fill out 4 spots on their bench for less than 1 million dollars each leaving them even more money to bring in some actual help.
You beat me to it McGateway…exactly.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 30, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
What? Miami has room for roughly 2 2/3 max players (they can’t get all three unless they move Beasley – good luck).
That trade saved them ~5 million in Banks’ contract. Which I’ve already acknowledged. And if they hadn’t, they’d still have enough for 2 max players (like they do now). So nothing would change there, except having a little more cap room for a mid-level guy.
And you’re saying they couldn’t find two midlevel players to sign 1-year contracts at 8 million apiece? I would’ve thought that would help them more than a grossly overpaid JO…
Plus keeping Banks (who is actually a half-decent backup PG) to use as a valuable trading chip to improve the team later this year, when the weakness inherent in a minimum-contract filled team becomes apparent.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
The prevailing theory is that one of two scenarios are likely to happen.
1. They use Beasley in a sign and trade with Toronto. Both teams are currently under the cap so their salaries do not even have to match. When you combine Beasley with a 1st round pick it would allow BC to save face.
2. The big 3 all agree to reduce their salaries to 12-14 million each in order for Miami to keep Beasley and still have cap room to sign other decent FAs. In this scenario they wouldn’t need to do a sign and trade because they can sign Bosh outright.
1. In this case – they could have sent anyone in a sign-and-trade including Banks. No way to know. He’d be an expiring contract that could be a valuable asset this year.
2. In this case, if they were 5 million further off, maybe the max players take a little less, and a little less, etc.
If you aren’t going to use hard numbers for this sort of thing – no matter what happened, it was equally possible. I guess we just have to find some way to blame it on BC.
I’ve yet to see any real argument for how the JO trade helped Miami into the position they are in, besides the Banks contract, which in my inital post I accepted the 5 million difference.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I am just reporting the news. I am not sure what your first point is because they do not have Banks on their roster so how could send anyone when they have only one player currently under contract?
2. This is a bit of a stretch but it would come down to how badly Lebron, Wade and Bosh wanted to play with each other and win championships. Even at 14 mil per season that would still keep the Heat under 50 million with Beasley on board. Meaning that even with their 2nd round picks all signed they could then go out and get 3 or 4 2 million dollar players and use their mid level to fill out their roster. The team may not win this year but as the cap expands they would be able to bring in better talent.
For my first point – I was saying if BC hadn’t made the JO trade – Banks could easily have been involved in this transaction instead.
2. Can’t use mid-level, since they were under the cap at the end of the season – you can’t use cap space, then use an exception. You have one or the other.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice Post
As usual I might be in the minority when I say BC has done a good job overall considering no GM in the history of the NBA has been without his fair share of bad moves. BC is no different, he’s made some bloopers for sure. What I like abt BC’s style is he is never afraid to make changes when things are not working. Some of us may have forgoten past GMs we’ve had who sit around and do nothing while the Raps lost game after game, season after season. Finally we have a GM who makes moves and refuses to accept mediocrity. He tried to sign vets to surround CB4 hoping to find a good 1,2,3, punch in bargs, bosh (Oneil,Marion, Turk) but it didn’t work, can you fault him for trying> Some of you guys make it sound like building a championship team is easy or happens overnight, it may take years and alot of luck to land the right combination of players, at least we have a GM who is always actively making an effort to do that. I am still excited about the possibilities for the raps next year, we might lose some games but at least we have a GM who is going to continue to make moves to improve.
i too like BC
i think he did a decent job. of course he could have done better evaluating a right combination of players and skills to compliment each others games, but he was desperate to just add talent to this team to convince bosh to stay. unfortunately the talent he added did not work together. Hedo, jermaine, and shawn marion were all very good players that really got Bosh excited. of course it didnt work out at the end. but now that bosh is finally leaving (not that i want him too) but now BC can finally evaluate the team needs without having to impress their star player cause frankly, we dont have any right now. BC knows this and im sure he will thoroughly adress the teams needs and rebuild from there. i am afraid though that he might try and strike for gold right away because it is his contract year, but if mlse gives him the thumbs up to start all over i think he will start a full rebuild because he is a smart gm and is really good with dealing with its players. except for hedo, but hedo deserves it
our failure is more bosh then BC. we directly missed he playoffs because of him he cant even make a 2 foot lay up common
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
This is an absolutely...
unfair statement.
Not making the playoffs had little to do with Bosh.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
my theory is lebron told bosh to not make the playoffs
that way itd be easier for bosh to leave and join him in whatever team lebron goes too.
and then lebron blames the rest of the raps for not trying.“But with Bosh being out for the rest of the season, and all those injuries, it just didn’t seem like they wanted to make the playoffs at the end of the season.”
oh and he obviously told his coach to play him when facing the raps at the end of the season, but to take him off when they face chicago so that chicago can win and make the playoffs, putting the blame on the raptors and easing the way for bosh to leave the raptors so that they can win together somewhere else. isnt it obvious?
its all Lebrons fault!
Oh man, I do love a good consperacy theory.
I don’t actually believe this for a second, but as far as theories go, this is a good one.
I think Mulder and Scully are all over this one…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
ONG KILL ME NOW!!
I don’t even have the energy to argue this anymore. Fine Bosh sucks, the rest of the league is crazy for wanting him and willing to pay max dollars. Our team was awesome last year and Bosh screwed it all up with his consistent 25 and 10’s. We didn’t make the playoffs because of a missed layup, it had nothing to do with all the losses leading up to that point, not to mention the blown game to Chicago when we were in the driver’s seat at home. We will all be better off when Bosh leaves and Hedo takes the reigns and leads us to the lazyboy promised land. (End Rant, Matt Devlin for President and GM)
Triple Amen
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 30, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
He refuses to accept mediocrity...
but this has been a less than a mediocre team since his first season.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
thats exactly y
he is always making changes.
So, you’re saying he has successfully avoided meciocrity?
Yay Brian!
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying
He is always trying to correct his wrong; if his teams are bad, he makes changes to try to make them better. For example, the 2009/10 raptors were slightly better than 2008/09. I wish I could say we were wayyyyyyy better in 09/10 but atleast he didn’t sit on his but and bring Parker, Moon, Humphries, Solomon, Roko and Graham back.
Was talking to Howland… but since you’ve engaged me…
Sometimes teams have to grow together – a mediocre team can become a good team can become a great team – just with player maturity and development. I’m not saying we had the pieces to let this happen – but saying he always makes trades is NOT an indication that he is unsatisfied with mediocrity – it is more a sign of impatience – and judging by the results of all his moves, a sign of shortsightedness and a lack of talent evaluation.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting article
http://www.thenews.pl/sport/artykul134533_gortat-to-leave-magic.html
Unless we’re getting Bynum from the lakers, I would do that trade in a heartbeat,
HAHAHA! LOL I read that and laughed as well...
I think it is a Polish web site (as Gortat is Polish)
I do that deal in a heartbeat.
Then in a perfect world – I turn arround and peddle Bargani and other junk (Calderone, or Evans/Banks expiring contracts) for something useful on the wing in a last ditch effort to sign Bosh… Keep hope alive! LOL
Amen
When I heard the interview, I had the same reaction Franchise. The “mainstream media” was got on us and others for our proclamation that “the sky is falling”. Well don’t look up!
The fact is that many of us saw this coming for quite some time. To me, the wheels really came off when the JO experiment failed. At the time, I was ok with the move because it was a move that would either make us a legit contender, or we’d be terrible and in the lottery and therefore get some good players. In addition, we’d have a boatload of cap space when JO came off the books (20 million).
We were heading in the terrible direction (which was ok), when BC panicked and dealt away JO and his big expiring deal AND a first round pick for Shawn Marion & Marcus Banks.
Colangelo’s justification for the move was that instead of being major players in the 2010 Free Agency (at the time pegged as one of the biggest ever), he would be a major player in 2009 Free Agency (a very limited crop of talent). He then decided to piss away all of his cap space on Hedo Turkoglu.
Then after panicking away the previous two seasons, Bryan and company decide to stand firm by sticking with their rookie coach (who was overmatched), forcing their rookie draft pick to start three-quarters of the season (who was overmatched), and not addressing a historically poor defensive group.
The reality is that it was a series of panic moves and half-measures that brought us to this point. I for one, do not blame Bosh in the slightest for leaving, and I think it would be poetic if he ended up going to Miami in that cap-space that trading JO’s contract created. I hope all we get back is our conditional first rounder that we traded along with JO’s contract, so Bryan can try and spin that.
Here here
And it would be completely poetic if he ended up in Miami with Wade and took the team to the promised land.
I have a bad feeling this is going to be Pau Gasol part II. People forget that many of the things said about Bosh, are EXACTLY what were said about Pau Gasol in Memphis, and once Gasol got some REAL help…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Real help as in Kobe Bryant, the highest payroll in the league and a now 11-time champion coach?
If only we’d gotten those things for Bosh while we had the chance…
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
In the 7 years that Bosh was here, who has been the other best player (the 2nd best player if you will) on the team? Have any of those individuals been elite players when they were here?
Off the top of my head, here is the list:
Carter (he wanted out at this point, so he shouldn’t count).
Rose (not an elite player)
TJ Ford (not even close to an elite player)
Calderon (nope)
JO (not at this point in his career)
Marion (ok for the 30 or so games we had him but not elite)
Hedo (sigh)
The reality is, this organization failed to bring in another elite player to play with Bosh. It never needed to be Kobe Bryant or someone on that level. It needed to be an all-star calibre player. It never happened. Did BC try? Yes, I think so. But the reality is that he failed and then compounded the mistake by paying guys like Calderon, Bargnani and Turkoglu as if they were elite players.
I could write you the list of coach’s that we’ve had under Bosh’s watch, but the common thread is that none of them had NBA head coaching experience when they were hired and all of them were cheap. Is it because nobody would come here? Is it because we wouldn’t pay a top-flight coach enough to come here? Is it because coach’s didn’t like our talent? Who knows.
Thank You Mistafitz
Bosh didn’t need a Kobe necessarily, but as Mistafitz points out, the “help” he’s had is hardly All-Star calibre…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 30, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
My point was – there’s a big difference between the help the Raps could realistically have provided Bosh, and the help Gasol had when he was moved.
Just felt it was an imbalanced comparison.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 30, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Public Statements vs. Private Thoughts
1. We’re not that far. Said at a time when he still had to make the possibility of a return attractive to Bosh, before Hedo went on to demand a trade.
2. He’s likely not coming back/ We might not get much back — Any of you considering a run for him in a sign and trade can still beat the offers we’ve received so far, so keep trying.
History shows that Colangelo really doesn’t show his cards so what appears as candid, truthful statements might simply be his setting things up for future moves. We should react when it’s over. Until then, not much to fuss about because we still don’t know what he’s thinking.
I just don't get it...
I see a few posts defending BC. “He made some mistakes, he’s not that bad…” etc. etc.
Let’s look at the facts people:
- When BC arrived, he had the 1st overall pick in the draft and a huge amount of cap space/flexibility. Basically a GM’s wet dream.
As Franchise pointed out, here are the results:
-An average of 40 wins a season under his tenure (sub .500.)
-Two playoff births yet none that lasted past the first round.
-An Atlantic Division title in a year when the rest of the division averaged 33 wins.
Add to this the present circumstances:
- A capped out team. Middling younge talent (Weems, DeRozan, Davis, no sure things). A first round pick still owed to Miami. 5 more years and $50 mil owed to Bargani and 4 years $40 mil plus to Hedo. Your franchise player never seriously considering re-signing AS HE HAD NO CONFIDENCE IN THE GM!!! THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE FAILURE ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT.
So why defend him? Why not admit that he has messed up and we would be better off as a fan base if we had a new GM?
you know what would be funny if jerry colangelo is the GM of the nets and he gives us all there best players so we can get better and the potential hiring of jerry colangelo is just BC’s plan to make us better
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
i know lol but if you think about it the nets and the raptors probably would do a lot more trades. i can just imagine at the colangelo family dinner table a trade being discussed between raptors and nets. i wonder if junior colangelo can be like common dad give me brook lopez for my birthday please!!!!!!!!
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
and this new GM will automatically make this team good?
everyone thinks its so easy to get a new gm and believe everything will be alright because we got new management. do you think this new GM will do everything right and make this team into a playoff contender. no GM is perfect, there will obviously be mistakes.
BC is a proven gm, is well-known around the league and is well-liked by the players he brings in (remember jermine oneal praising him after being traded to the heat and how well he treats his players). he also has connections with the top people in the nba, his dad is jerry colangelo. he did get triano to coach the US squad which is obviously a great thing to get your coach more experience. i dont know but seems like a GM id want to keep on this team.
you all think its easy to take a team and turn it into a playoff contender.
and another thing i will only consider presti a success when OKC wins a championship until then i wont judge him
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
So you won't judge...
anyone other than Mitch Kupchak?
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
what i mean is look at Danny Ferry people thought he was such a great GM making the cavs into a 60+ win team for 2 straight seasons, ultimately what happened cavs didn’t win nothing and it was shown that he didn’t have the right pieces around lebron. I win only judge Presti when OKC wins a championship because the moves that look good now might not add up to a championship in OKC. in my opinion Ainge is a great GM because he took Boston from a last place team to NBA champs in one season that is remarkable and something I’m afraid presti will never do we will see if OKC can be a contender next season but i doubt it.
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
please rememeber this is toronto
he’s trying to get players who want to be here and play well. remember babcock getting alonzo mourning in that stupid carter trade. ya that was pathetic, we had to pay alonzo to get out of here.
now im not saying BC has been a darn great gm, i just dont think you should be so quick in firing him and appointing a new gm. cause i promise you, the next gm will make mistakes too, may even be bigger than the mistake BC has made.
Lets not start with the inferiority complex again
Toronto is not an undesirable place to live/play. The Raptors organization is becoming an undesirable team to play for though.
your right
getting rid of the gm is a great idea. lets get a new one. we always do anyways. in fact, lets go out and sign joe johnson and carlos boozer. this team is gonna be so good. toronto raptors 2011. book it!
Tea time – is your argument that you keep Colangelo because there’s no one better out there?
If so, how do we know? And regardless, does that mean you sit there and let him screw up a rebuild attempt?
Isn’t it a grave concern when fans see the writing on the wall way before the team’s GM?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
ya but how do you know if there is
a better gm out there. firing BC is just a quick fix. because of the high possibility of bosh leaving everyone is out to get BC which is understandable but firing him is not the answer. sure youll be happy for now but is it best for the long term? will the next gm actually be better? its a risk.
from what i learned from business school and having a family business, what ive learned is that successful businesses maintain stability in their management. BC has made mistakes and i do believe it is possible for him to learn from it but you just dont keep changing your manager because things didnt go according to plan. we cant ask for a perfect manager but if your manager who has experience in the league and who has gone through their ups and downs, isnt it better than a possible rookie gm or another gm who knows nothing about the raps but will start a new. BC had just gone through possibly his most unsuccessful year, and now that bosh, which every trade was based on, is now leaving dont you think he can possibly build his team his way instead of just trying to incorporate players to convince bosh to stay.
BC had it tough, he had to think of building a team around bosh but at the same time think of building it without him. this is why andrea wasnt traded because who knows, bosh probably would have still left even if we did make the playoffs. andrea was kept because he knew if bosh left, he would be stuck with no potential go-to guy. at least with bargs here, he is for now the best player we got.
so unless you find an experienced gm who has been successful throughout his entire years in the league, then fire BC. but until then, BC is what we got and i dont think he’s that bad as many of you think he is. he’s still one of the better gm’s in the league. those hating BC are similar to those who hate bosh because both were not good enough to take this team to the next level. but both are still well known-commodities in the nba and most in the nba would want them… except of course, us.
Good GM's decide on a plan of action and stick to it.
My concern with BC has everything to do with him not sticking to his original plan….which is almost always a recipe for disaster. When he got here, he had a good base to work with: Cap space, star player, #1 draft pick. After that first year, when we overachieved, the plan changed and we started to try and win now instead of building a proper foundation for a winning team. We started seeing patchwork solutions that screamed short-term thinking. You can’t win that way.
As far as good GM’s: I hear Kevin Pritchard is available.
kevin pritchard is ok
if BC was to get fired id go after him of course since he did get some good talent to the team. but i do question: why did Portland just fire him? there must be a reason as to why he was fired right?
but i also dont think he would suddenly turn this team into something awesome. it was he who drafted greg oden over kevin durant. just goes to show that not all gm’s are that Great
I’d be speculating if I were to give a reason as to why Pritchard is getting fired. Truth is I don’t know.
However,
Pritchard is an example of a GM that had a plan, and followed through on it. His plan was to load up on picks so that he could get as many good young players as possible. We’ve seen Presti do the same sort of thing in OKC. Young players are cheap and are generally desired in most trade situations. Even with a team ravaged by injuries this year, you’ve seen that Portland’s depth still allowed them to win 50 games.
But Oden over Durant: not looking so good. And to be fair, Portland hasn’t had much post-season success either, but I believe that they have a very solid foundation that will be competitive for years to come, and they owe alot of that to Pritchard.
I think we were heading in a similar direction in Colangelo’s first year, but then when we got some premature success, Colangelo overvalued our talent and switched course.
Were we, as fans, overvaluing the talent as well? Probably. But we are afforded that luxury as fans. A GM is not.
The JO acquisition was a “we’re going for it” kind of move. You don’t pick up a $20 million player without making that statement. At the time, the spin was that it was a bit of a gamble, but if it didn’t work, we’d have his salary off our cap the summer that several desirable free agents would become available.
Because of this, I was ok with the move. I was also ok with it when it was clear it wasn’t working, because it meant cap space in 2010 and picks in the meantime.
But then he switched course AGAIN. This time dealing away our 2010 cap space AND a pick for 3/4 of that cap space in 2009 and Marcus Banks. If 2009 was a loaded free agent class, I would have been ok with it. However, the best free agent available was Hedo Turkoglu. HEDO TURKOGLU!
Is it possible that had we saved that cap space that we wouldn’t have come away with anything better than Hedo? Possibly. But to me, the inability to stick with the plan has put us in this position of being a mediocre team at best if Bosh were to stay and a bad team if he were to leave.
kevin pritchard is no better then the BC has pritchard ever one a championship. i would only fire BC for s GM who has successfully built a crap team into a contender and the only GM to do that recently is Ainge.
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Your point may be valid but there only like 4 or 5 GMs currently that have rings and are not retired. Surprisingly, all of them are still with their teams. The issue is really one of confidence, do you have confidence that BC can turn this around or more importantly, do you have confidence that the ownership can step in and say no once in awhile? It is pretty hard to have a great team if your owner is 10,000 people.
basketball is more then a buisness
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that the heart of the issue though? Trying to build around Bosh may have been BC’s biggest error. A number of people in here have been pimping moving Bosh out as far back as 2 years ago when things were already heading down the toilet. Not saying that was the absolute solution but considering we are much worse off now than say a year ago(had they moved him last summer). I agree with the stability in Management but BC has been here for 5 years now and we are worse off then when he came here because of the salaries we have and the draft picks we have had to give up.
+1
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t get it either.
Will a 25 win season next year be enough for people to realize that Colangelo screwed up royally? At what point in the real world would a manager get fired for doing a job like this? There’s not one area he’s excelled in!
It would be one thing if the player he chose first overall in the draft was an All-Star, or if DeRozan or Jawai or whoever became true “diamonds in the rough…” Then maybe you say “yes, we lose Bosh, but we’ve got a bunch of guys needing his time and minutes.”
Sadly Collangelo’s best move may have been the Hoffa trade…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
even if we win 25 games at least we can be in top contention for harrison barnes and we wont suck after that
by raptors_run_the_show on Jun 29, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that he is a GM and this is a blog
and we are just people posting on a Blog, but please, do I really need to go to find last summer articles on who was suggesting to trade Bosh (as a matter of risk management) and what the vaste majority of people (and yes, I mean YOU, YOU and YOU, you know who you are) opinion were on this? Management is for the manages and BC has failed as a manager but he did what (most of) you wanted. Now, as usual, victory has 100 fathers where defeats are orphans but, please, have the dignity and the curage of your opinions. You can still be men in a defeat……
At least I can hold my head high knowing I hated the Turkoglu signing from the start. Hahaha.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 29, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
absolutely
… bu my post was about trading #4 as a sound risk management strategy
I did not want BC to trade Bosh
I wanted him to trade Bargani, and not sign Hedo Turkaglu… and not sign Jason kapono and on and on. Tons of opportunities missed or missed judged. The point is we shouldn’t have HAD to trade Bosh in the first place…
legitimate opinion
but how does that help with Chris walking, possibly for nothing?
I did question Colangelo’s decision to stick with Bosh last year, and I believe Howland did too. I believe we described it then as playing with fire, or as a deadly game of poker, or some such analogy.
Regardless though, it’s the moves surrounding Bosh that we’ve mostly had major issues with.
I RAILED against the Hedo signing. I LAMENTED the lack of a back-up point guard the year before when everyone said the team would be fine with Roko, I wasn’t a fan of the DeRozan pick and I didn’t agree with bringing in Shawn Marion if the team was only going to cut him loose in the off-season.
And going back even further, this is someone who was thrilled to see Colangelo come on board, and I was a huge fan of what he was bringing to the org.
In fact, at the end of the 2007-08 season I wrote this:
One thing is for certain, I expect BC to tweak this roster and do everything in his power to push this club to the next level. Hearing him speak yesterday reignited my confidence in the direction of the team and I’m now extremely excited about the off-season.
So make no mistake about it, I was a believer in BC.
But how many times can you be shown yellow coal and told that it’s gold? He’s had his chance, four chances in fact, and has yet to show one iota of promise that he knows how to get this team to the next level!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I assume the two people who gave Colangelo an 'A' in the poll...
… were trying to be funny.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 29, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions
Personally I didn’t.
But if its not a viable option, why is it in the poll?
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Solid point – my fault, perhaps should have started at B…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I am reading A lot of words that mean NOTHING in evaluating Colangelo and the Raptors of '10/11
Colangelo has a mandate from MLSE to have a winning franchise in Toronto.
He does not control Bosh, nor can he talk to him about resigning, or sign and trades until July 1st, just like any other teams as he is a FA now. He has been in contact with CB’s agent about other issues has has some idea of CB’s intentions of adressing free agency.
He intends to make a presentation to his agent and CB to resign, but is unsure if CB will accept that offer. This is nothing new.
There is no way at this time to evaluate what the team will look like, except it must WIN.
These STEPS will have to be followed (IN ORDER) in order to be able to make decisions by BC, to know what needs to be done to improve the team post CB, if necessary.
1. Chris Bosh FA, sign and trade for players, draft picks, or trade exception, whichever is more benificial to the objecives, as Chris has stated this was his intent, if leaving.
2. Hedo Turkoglu, stay or trade, only if return is of benefit to winning.
3. Sign Johnson as a FA as a priority, as he wants to return.
4. Sign with the MLE a FA or 2
5. Make trades, as required to improve the overall team.
All transactions must be made with current, as well as long term team thinking in mind.
Only after time, in September, training camp etc when the team is put together can informed media comment on the TEAM, and Colangelo’s future prospects, as a winning franchise.
Actually...
BC could negotiate with Bosh. He was under contract until yesterday.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He could negotiate to offer an extension only, which he was told by CB he had no interest in doing, but was unable to offer a new max 6 year contract, which is obviously what Cb is looking for.
Pretty sure....
side conversations are had all the time…
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
even if some of them....
lead to Joe Smith fiasco’s!
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Jun 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed on these steps…but not sure you can say that the media can’t comment on this team now.
I’m not trying to project the demise of the Toronto Raptors as we know it, and yes, who knows, maybe BC pulls off a miracle, as I noted in my piece, and the team is very competitive next year.
However that doesn’t change the fact that Colangelo has done these same sorts of steps the past three off-seasons and has failed to put a winning, or in some cases even a middling, product on the court, and now has lost the team’s best player. That’s where the judgement comes in.
I think this post by Yahoo’s Kelly Dwyer sums it up nicely:
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Article
Really, really, REALLY hard to argue with Dwyer’s logic in this piece. Especially the Hedo red flag part.
And Dwyer was all over PORTLAND for wanting to sign Hedo! So he’s been talking the talk before Hedo ever put pen to paper and landed in Toronto.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 29, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent breakdown...
You just can’t argue with the track record or facts. All the Colangelo appologists need to take a cold shower and then sit down and read this article. I challenge anyone to debate the conclusion of this article, because you can’t withour ignoring the facts.
Dwyer captures my sentiments on the Bargani signing precisely. I’ve posted the ecxact same thought in the comments on this site before:
“Taking Andrea Bargnani(notes) first overall in a weak draft isn’t the worst thing he could have done, but bidding against himself to offer Bargnani an eight-figure yearly (once averaged out) contract extension years before he had to? That’s pretty bad. "
Dmning stuff…
Absolutely damning
I noted yesteday morning that on top of our take on the BC-Bosh situation, two of my favourite and most respected writers, Dwyer and the National Post’s Bruce Arthur, had the same take.
The reality is that Colangelo has been a lot like the players he’s brought to Toronto: overhyped.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 30, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
My 2 Cents
There is one word IMO to describe Colangelo’s thinking process during his tenure as GM of the Toronto Raptors – Denial. His ego was boosted tremendously when he helped build a 27-win team into division champions, even though they won mostly because they were playing in a terrible division that year. His ego was probably boosted even more when he won the NBA Executive of the Year award, and everyone was hailing him as one of the great GMs in the NBA. Once the teams in the Atlantic division began improving by adding serious talent (eg. Boston), Colangelo was stuck thinking that the team of the 2006-07 season was good enough to compete the next following seasons and continued building the team with that belief. From there on, it went downhill for the team as Colangelo had trouble adapting to the rising competition within the division.
When finally faced with the potential reality of failure in his decision-making, Colangelo ignored the facts that were available to him and tried to get around them by way of quick-fixes. Instead of acknowledging such problems and finding methods to fix them (and make his team more competitive), he tried to build the team around this failing philosophy without much thought upon the long-term consequences they may have. When the inevitable eventually arrived, reality hit him hard and he is having trouble doing anything that would help the team in the long run.
Ultimately, as you’ve said before, Colangelo’s ego is what hurt him and the team. With these problems at hand, I’d be very worried of having this man as the GM next season.
I found two different NBA sources presenting this rumor:
To LA:
Chris Bosh
Jarrett Jack
To TOR:
Andrew Bynum
Lamar Odom
There’s no way that happens, but if I was Colangelo and that deal was offered to me, I wouldn’t be able to push it through fast enough.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Jun 29, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
So...are those complaining not going to watch the games?
So, the sentiment is that the sky is falling, our GM sucks, the situation is hopeless, as of June 29, 2010. No trades or signings are going to fix this. We’d rather be in year 3 of a rebuild instead of having tried to make the most of a star in his prime,
We do not know what restrictions were placed on Colangelo in terms of buying extra picks in the draft, or spending into the luxury tax like all of the championship contending teams have been for the past couple of years. This we will never know.
We know he tried to sign John Salmons but Salmons found God
We know that the original TJ trade was supposed to be for Gerald Wallace who didn’t want to come to Toronto.
We know that he offered Trevor Ariza more money than he ended up signing for with Houston.
These, if they had transpired, would have been significant moves that would have changed the course of the franchise
It would be wrong to say he didn’t try to land the right pieces. His fall back plans just didn’t work. I’m not going to fault him for that.
Hmmm. I guess I’ll be amongst the few watching Raptors games this year. I’ll let you know how it goes.
You do not learn, do you?
you neer, NEVER let the… truth spoil a nice story and BTW who are you to go against the prevailing sentiment? Repeat with me:
The sky is falling and IRAQ has WMD!
First we know Iraq had WMD because they used them against the Kurds, we just didn’t know they didn’t have them anymore.
Second, in relation to Interloper’s points, you are making our case for us. BC has tried to make good moves but then when they didn’t work out, panicked and made bad moves (although TJ Ford move wasn’t that bad but it was his second Ford move that doomed the franchise).
Only one watching
I’ll make it two, at least. Plenty enough reasons to watch next year (and plenty of reasons to keep an eye open this summer).
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
$25-$30 mil
Is Bosh really foolish enough to leave $25-$30 million on the table by not accepting a sign and trade??
I don’t think he is. And to those who will say “He’ll sign a new deal after, so he won’t actually lose that much money” it’s all about the guarantee. Maybe in the next CBA there will be much more strict resctrictions on salaries – maybe CB’s foot, or knees, or whatever give out and he doesn’t have max earning potential at that point.
No one walks away from a guaranteed 30 million. Especially when, push comes to shove, the only cost in a S+T with teams under the cap will be a couple first-rounders and cap space (a TPE) – first-rounders that will have no value for a championship team picking 30th.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
It depends…if he and his agent think he can re-coup that in a bigger market on a team that can pay max dollars (Chicago, Miami etc) then it’s quite possible.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Miami is hardly a bigger market though. Miami is about half the size of Toronto and compete against Orlando in Florida for market. He isn’t going to Miami because it is a bigger market with a history of winning as they have won exactly one championship and they needed Dallas to completely implode in order to get that championship. He would go to Miami because the tax situation would allow him to take less money and still come out ahead or even and to play with Wade and another max-dollar free agent.
I found this rumor... But it's a rip-off for us (Lakers) Bynum and Odom for Bosh and J.Jack?
The RaiderLaker
absolutely not
For Hedo and jack mybe…. actually just for Helo alone (end of sarcasm)
this is the same rumor
I posted above, I checked your source and it is different from the two I found. I am not sure, however, if there are circular referencies
Why not? it's basically Bynum and Odom for Jack, lol... Wow!
Bosh is undoubtedly leaving guys… If you want to face him 4 times a year with a strong team (with LeBron to the Bulls also) You guys will be sorry, if that does happen…
The RaiderLaker
dude he was kidding
and its not bynum and odom for jack, it clearly states bosh would be in the deal aswell. it would be through a sign and trade of course.
plus we already the raps are going to suck next year. were already thinking about the lottery. itll take us years to get to where you guys are at. so it doesnt really matter if we face them 4 times a year. it just gives us a better chance of getting the top pick.
but for LA, you guys are gonna be the ones competeing against them in the finals, so i think youd be sorry for not wanting to make that trade allowing the bulls (as you say) to have a stacked team.
I see you want to stay a lottery team huh? Bynum and Odom would change that...
but if you just want to lose because you want a lottery pick then good luck. i thought you guys wanted to win games, but now I see…
The RaiderLaker
I’d make this move in a flash…but just don’t believe the Lakers would agree to such a personnel change.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
dude, read below, i said i wouldnt mind this trade
and please, bynum and odom will not make us a great team. bynum is constantly injured and odom hasnt really teared up the playoffs. they would put us in mediocrity and we as raptors fans know how that goes. most here would rather become a really good playoff contender or be at the top of the lottery for a few years to become good again ala portland and OKC.
i actually think this trade would work
LA would obviously like to have bosh just because he is bosh but they also get a great pg in jarret jack. i think this would be a good trade. also it prevents bosh, james, and wade into creating a super team so LA doesnt have to face this potential 3 player tandem in the finals. i think theyd make this trade….
as for toronto theyll get a center (who i am afraid will get injured again but no doubt has skills) and odom who is a decent player but id look to trade him. either way now that chicago is releasing all of their assets as well as miami of having nothing to return in a sign and trade, this deal looks best i guess. hopefully bosh gets wooed by houston and maybe we can deal him there for their awesome assets.
On paper
This makes of the Raps a playoff team, possibly atlantic dvision champion, considering it leaves other three expirings + MLE to spend (possibly wisely)
Bynum and Odom were not “core” players in this year Title. The most effective team the LAL had on the court was with the Catalan at the 5 and Odom at the 4 and I guess it is safe to say that Chris at the 4 would be an upgrade over Odom…
of course
you need to get an indipendent opinion over Bynum knee status, as you would be playing russian roulette with him….
Bynum can be a core player, and along with your skilled 7 foot PF in Bargiani (sorry if I misspelled)
You guys can emulate our type of frontline which should bring you success. 2, 7 footers, both very skilled, a young up and coming DeRozan, all you would need would be a good SF (Hedo wants out and he sucks) and a good PG (i doubt Calderon is the answer). You guys would be a deep playoff team on the brink of making it to the finals. (If only you get those SF and PG positions fixed)
The RaiderLaker
That’s the wild card as you pointed out Renato…but one that BC may have to deal with regardless simply because there aren’t any other options.
That being said, I still think Bosh is Miami or Chicago bound.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Jun 29, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Bynum-Odom Deal
My question: what would we do with Odom?
Keep to play the 3? The 4? Trade him – for who?
Quality bench player.... when Bargnani fouls out (as a PF) or if Bynum fouls out or is injured it'll be Bargani at C and Odom at PF.
I doubt Ed Davis is going to blow up the league…
The RaiderLaker
if he stays in TO
he would play the 3 or the 4, likely that would allow S&T Amir as there would be no pt for him
Why on earth would Amir do a S+T with us???
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
because
maybe he can get more money out of it than on the free market as another team could pay totally or partially with other contracts?
There are plenty of teams with cap space – and he’s not going to make anywhere near his max contract, so signing with us doesn’t help him any unless he has a specific, over-the-cap team in mind – and I’m sorry, but he’s not “that piece” you get to improve your team’s chances – and if a team is improving by trading for him – we’re likely not getting a whole lot of talent back.
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Bosh/LeBron/Wade & Second rounders
Is that a team that will work on the floor and really be championship contenders? Bosh/LeBron and Joe Johnson would seem a better fit than Bosh/Lebron and Wade, but maybe I’m missing something. How might something like that work. The beauty ofthe Boston Big 3, even the Lakers is that the pieces are complementary. This might be an experiment that doesn’t work. If it comes to fruition it will be interesting to watch
No team has an elite defender for all three guys. That’s the main thing – plus at any moment during the game, two of them will be on the floor. They find a board crasher at centre and a three-point shooter at pg and who can defend that? Wade and Bron breaking the defense down, with a shooter and Bosh open for jumpers, and then Bosh, centre, and Bron crashing the offensive glass?
Defense, on the other hand…
But still!
by dhackett1565 on Jun 29, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
It will be interesting to see
How that holds up over the course of the season, with what would be a significantly top heavy team. Wade and LeBron both have shooting issues still and are ball dominators. Bosh is not a great passer from the post either. Will be interesting to see how it works if they go that way. In the ideal scenario:
Bosh goes to Chicago without LeBron
Joe Johnson and Amare land in New York to revitalize that franchise
LeBron stays in Cleveland
Boozer lands in Miami
More competitive balance and likely a better brand of basketball than a pseudo all-star squad.
But I think the thing that strikes me about this particular trio is that it is not just about basketball, it’s about their respective brands, especially LeBron.
It is in this context that you really appreciate the likes of Duncan, Garnett, and a matured Kobe. Seemingly everything they do is devoted to perfecting the on-the court situation. Maybe when these three get older, this will be the case, but for now, it’s kind of disappointing.
by HQ Interloper on Jun 29, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I've got to agree
Kinda bothers me that these guys only have one foot in the game. Especially Bosh and James. I know a career in the NBA is relatively short lived and you have to think of your future, but it just seems like they are using the NBA as a means to push themselves, and their “brands”.
Though it would be interesting to see what would happen if the three of them ended up on the same team, ultimately I think it would fail. Whichever team signed them would have precious little money to sign nine other players. Plus, with Lebron, Wade and Bosh all averaging 25 to 30 points a piece, you’d have to find guys who were willing to play defense and get one or two touches a game. Realsitically, you’d have three all-stars surrounded by fringe NBA players. My question is, who leads this team? Since Wade is the only player to take his team to the promise land I would think him. I just don’t see Lebron willing to play Spock to Wade’s Kirk. As far as I’m concerned, there isn’t enough room on any team for these three egos. I definitely don’t see Bosh willing to play the third wheel, if what he has been saying about being the man is to be believed.
Actually, James probably would willingly let Wade lead. His demeanor seems to be one that would allow him to play second fiddle to another great player. It is probably one of his biggest knocks that he is a little too easy going. Can you imagine Jordan going out of his way to sign on another team with a superstar? He would insist that player come to him on their knees and thanking him for even looking at him.
Boston Celtics vs. Miami All-Stars
The beauty about the Boston Celtics is how well all of the pieces fit together. Allen provided the three-point perimeter touch. Garnett brought the defensive intensity as the consumate glue guy. Paul Pierce was the go-to guy in the clutch to create off the dribble. These Celtics won a championship as a result of the way their stars complimented each other as a well-oiled machine.
As the next Big Three, Bosh/James/Wade would differ considerably from these three. While you’re right that these players don’t compliment each other ideally (James and Wade both need the ball and a lot of space to create for themselves, Bosh needs the ball a lot in isolations), this team would almost certainly become a championship team within a couple of years. The Celtics Three were superstars on the downside of their careers. While all three were (are?) borderline all-stars, individually they weren’t good enough on their own to carry their teams over the hump. Together, their skills complimented each other well enough to mask their deficiencies. BJW however are 3 supremely talented players in their primes that can each carry their team to success. As dhackett1565 mentioned, no team has any player capable of defending these players. While they lack complimentarity, they make up for that with all-world talent. Pierce, Allen and Garnett weren’t capable of that.
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