Bosh and the Rockets - A Match?

If Colangelo could unload Turkoglu in a sign-and trade with Bosh to Houston for Jordan Hill and Trevor Ariza he would have to make that deal - wouldn't he?

about 2 years ago RaptorsHQ - Howland 36 comments 0 recs |

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Absolutely

I’d struggle to think of a better REALISTIC sign-and-trade scenario for the Raptors.

And then, if the Raptors were truly serious about winning vs. coddling underperforming players, they’d start Hill, Ariza and Amir Johnson in the frontcourt with Bargnani coming off the bench as a 6th man.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 30, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions

Bargnani off the Bench

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Good luck with Andrea being the 6th man. I think that would be a profound mistake bringing him off the Bench. Personally, I see your perception of AB as being highly tainted – you should preface any of your "recommendations" with "I hate Bargnani and ……………. ". Then I might listen more.

And this whole "I love Amir" as someone who will transition into a 35 minute a night, 82 game player just seems unrealistic. It’s why I hate per 36 – not a realistic stat. It forgets wear & tear on the body over a FULL schedule. Centers are prone to break-downs, and people seem to disregard this fact.
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Which speaking of injury breakdowns, it was interesting to note that Brandon Roy – the most picked #1 draft choice – in HINDSIGHT – went down with a bad knee, when it counted most. Maybe those GMs had the right foresight.
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by RapthoseLeafs on May 1, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Really? You’d start Jordan Hill over Bargnani? I get that you hate Bargnani, but be reasonable.

by HDave on May 2, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, I must be insane to want rebounding from the power forward or centre positions.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on May 2, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Rebounding and Centres/PF

[" … if the Raptors were truly serious about winning vs. coddling underperforming players, they’d start Hill, Ariza and Amir Johnson in the front court with Bargnani coming off the bench as a 6th man."] – your 1st Quote

[" Yeah, I must be insane to want rebounding from the power forward or centre positions."] – your 2nd Quote

I’m not sure where rebounding came into this argument, but it seems you view this stat as the be-all, end-all, to the PF & Centre position. Aside from Ariza (a Guard), the other 2 players by implication, would be YOUR Starters for the Raptor front court.
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Hill & Johnson 2009-10 Numbers
Hill (6-10, 235 lbs) played 13.3 minutes, averaging 5.2 points, with a .676 FT%.
Johnson (6-9, 210 lbs) played 17.7 minutes, averaging 6.2 points, with a .638 FT%
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I gather these statistics don’t make it, in your equation of who should start. Playing 36 minutes a game takes its toll – a big reason why I really don’t value the per 36 stat. It completely ignores the human factor. Then there’s the FT% – both are poor. On top of all this, guys like Amir have difficulty playing against the bigger Big men – unlike Andrea.
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Part of the reason why the Raptors failed to make the play-offs, is because the Bench played Starting minutes far too often. Guys like Weems, DeRozan, and Amir – true Bench players – were counted on for roles that they weren’t ready for (at this point in time). Your “Game plan” suggests we continue that trend.
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As I eluded to earlier, one of the biggest understatements to a Centre, is the ability to last full time minutes, and stay around for almost all 82 games. Yao is a classic example. Great player, but useless over the long haul. Ask Houston how it feels to miss the play-offs.
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Rebounding is a factor to success, but not as much as you see it. For the Raptors, put a Noah type player in the front court with Bargnani, and rebounding stops being such a fanatical issue with some. With Noah averaging 10.7 pts per game, the result would see Andrea providing offense, and Noah more so the defense.
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To me, that makes more sense.
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by RapthoseLeafs on May 2, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions

So as long as the centre can last full-time minutes, I guess we can overlook the fact that the centre we’re talking about is one of the worst defensive players in the league? I guess this is the NBA equivalent of giving every kid a trophy no matter if they win or lose. Way to stay on the court without fouling!

Listen — I get it: As a Bargnani apologist, you’re obligated to overlook rebounding and defence while trotting out box score stats.

But it’s funny that you bring up free-throw percentage as part of your criticisms of both Amir Johnson and Jordan Hill. Here’s an article from the NY Times that states there is little correlation between free-throw percentages and winning percentages.

Meanwhile, rebounding and winning seem to be related.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on May 2, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Rebounding

Not to belabour this issue, but my point was … rebounding is important, but not the be-all, end-all to a successful team.
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Toronto’s Rebounding Differential (vs Opp) was 24th – not great. But it was better than Boston, Dallas, and Denver. And before you state that Denver & Dallas didn’t make it past the 1st Round, stats show both teams in the top 5 (for Rebounding Diff) during the play-offs …. a turn-around from their season averages. Somehow, that improvement didn’t translate into the Second round.
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As for your Bargnani apologist comment, I’ll give you one thing – I do like Andrea. But, I’ve never deflected his issues – I just think they can be overcome – with the right coaching. Like a number of people, I think his upside still has a way to go. He’s a 7 footer that can nail 3 pointers (yes, his average was down – but his previous year was .409). As I’ve watched the Play-offs, 3 pt shots can have a devastating effect. As for his defense, AB’s a decent man-to-man defender. His help defense sucks, but why can’t that be taught – as Grange alluded to in one of his posts. And as we’ve also seen, he’s not bad taking his man in the Post. I just don’t think enough plays have been run for him – THERE ….“there” being the operative word.
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Andrea will not bring us to the Promise Land on his own. But neither has Bosh. This is a team sport, where balance needs to happen. The trouble with this current Raptor team, is that certain players bring neither defense, nor offense. In Phoenix, Nash is no defensive gem, but that somehow didn’t stop him being named MVP for 2 consecutive years, or taking his team to the place it is, right now.
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At 8 million next year – and with all the bloated contracts out there – Andrea is not a steal (yet), but neither is he a loss. He’s a part to the puzzle, one that needs strictly defensive players – like Wright should’ve been before he got all “I’m the offense now” on us.
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All in all, there’s more to criticize on this team, then one certain 7 footer having a sub-par year (to Raptor expectations). But one thing I’ve got to say about AB – he’s honest when he says he played lousy, lazy, poorly, or whatever. Ever hear Bosh say he was responsible for a loss.
Not too often.
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by RapthoseLeafs on May 3, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Abso-friggin-lutely

That would be terrific. The lineup would instantly be more athletic, and we might, you know, see them play as a team. And play some defence too.

Knights, Canucks, Dolphins, Jays and Raptors all the way.

by Jevant on Apr 30, 2010 10:15 AM EDT reply actions

Hell to the yes

lockdown defender, lotto pick with upside compared to bosh, get rid of the turkey jerky, id pull this deal in a heartbeat. id also try to nab scola.. but that might be too much :P

by claws on Apr 30, 2010 10:41 AM EDT reply actions

Adding Scola...

would be asking for too much.

This is an interesting rumour. I have to say I would rather see Bosh moved to the Western Conference.

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 30, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions

it may be that scola instead of hill is the main piece on the rockets side.

resigning scola could be to send him to toronto along with battier, jeffries & a pick but scola & hill wont both be going that would leave no back up PF for bosh if he decides he wants to play in houston. which package would you rather have?

by mangelq75 on May 1, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Gotta agree

I would be ok with this trade. Both Hill and Ariza are 22 and 24 respectively. Both have potential to be solid contributors. If Colangelo could pull this off I would say go for it. Then try and buy another draft pick, resign Amir and let the rebuild begin.

by Posterized on Apr 30, 2010 11:00 AM EDT reply actions

If this happens..

The Rockets are gonna be incredible. Yao, Bosh, Martin, and scrappers like hayes, scola, lowry, with their MIP in brooks… I think Yaos due for an extension soon.. Think they might resign him cheaper because of his foot?

by claws on Apr 30, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions

The Rockets....

would be very very good…at least on paper. It would be interesting to see how Bosh would adjust to having a MAMMOTH center beside him…not just a guy who floats by the three point line.

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 30, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions

oh for sure, yao can hopefully make up for the defence deficiencies of both martin and bosh, but at least their PG doesnt let his man blow past him every possession, 1 less thing to worry about.

by claws on Apr 30, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Actually, I don’t think Bosh will look deficient on defence on a team like the Rockets (where he’s surrounded by guys that can actually defend). I don’t think it can be overstated just how bad the rest of the Raptors’ starting lineup was when you consider it was made up of all-world defenders like Calderon, DeRozan, Turkoglu and Bargnani.

Even though the Raptors will field another non-playoff team next year minus Bosh, I’d have no trouble staying interested in a starting lineup of Amir Johnson, Jordan Hill, Trevor Ariza, Sonny Weems and Jose Calderon (yes, Jose – you can stay if the rest of the starters can defend). Bargnani needs to come off the pine.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 30, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions

ugh. derozan. ariza can teach him how to play defence. also financially hows this gonna work out? by my count ariza+hill = 9mil and bosh+turk = ~25mil.

by claws on Apr 30, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions

Obviously...

more parts would be required.

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

who are u gonna pull from the rockets to make it up tho? their highest paids are yao and martin none of whom i can see coming over in a trade, and the next highest paid i think is jeffries, who i think expires this year?

by claws on Apr 30, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

Maybe some combination of Jeffries and Battier? Houston does appear to have some trade exceptions as well.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

I have no idea...

if it would be at all possible….but how would Yao look in a Raps jersey?!

Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com

by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 30, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions

Injured.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 30, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions

hahahahahahaha

by EnviroCaper on May 4, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions

agreed for the most part.

Although I’m not so sure how effective Bosh would be with the two starting gaurd’s looking more for their own shots (Martin & Brooks)

by j-deep on Apr 30, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions

That's a good point

Bosh has had the benefit of playing with guards a little less “selfish” than both Brooks and Martin. Especially Martin.

by Posterized on Apr 30, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions

this is possibly the best trade situation that could happend if bosh wants to leave toronto then he needs to go to houston because we could get alot back. i would love to see jordan hill besides andrea bargnani. maybe andrea can be our version of crawford coming of the bench n providing some firepower
this would be amazing line up jack,weems,ariza,hill,johnson

by raptors_run_the_show on May 1, 2010 12:00 PM EDT reply actions

maybe possibly the rockets could include a first round draft pick

by raptors_run_the_show on May 1, 2010 12:06 PM EDT reply actions

Dreams.............

No way Houston takes Hedo’s contract; even if they had the outgoing salaries to make it work. It makes no sense for them to do so.

I still think Jordan Hill/Ariza would be great returns on Bosh in a S/T, but it leaves this team in a no-win position where it either has to sit Turk or one of the young guys they’re getting in the deal. If Colangelo makes a move like this, it signals that the team is building for the future and guys like Hedo and Calderon MUST be moved. That’s going to be hard to pull off, especially with Turkoglu.

Put it this way, if BC can move Turkoglu this off-season he should win executive of the year no matter what he gets for Bosh; except that Turk was his screw up in the first place.

Rob

PS-I’d love to see an article on what teams could conceivably land Bosh and what Raps fans might (realistically) expect in return. Oh and no more Hedo trade scenarios……..if we’re going to fantasize about that, we might as well start buying Lebron Raptor jerseys.

by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on May 1, 2010 9:13 PM EDT reply actions

The only way I COULD see Turk leaving is making a team take him along with Bosh in a S&T. That might be the only possibility besides dealing for another overpaid, underperforming player like a Hedo-Arenas swap or a Hedo-Brand swap.

by HDave on May 2, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions

From a Raptor standpoint, I’d do both of those deals in a heartbeat. I’d even do a Dalenbert-Hedo swap and slide Bargnani over to the four, but I don’t think Philly would go for it.

If I’m BC I’d do anything to move Hedo out of town….ANYTHING.

He should call Cuban and see if he’d take Hedo and our first round pick for Dampier’s non-guaranteed contract. Even with us including the pick, I don’t think Cuban would be crazy enough. And then there’s always dysfunctional Golden State; the way Nellie likes to play small he could be their forward/center and we’d take back anybody (Ellis, Maggette, whoever).

Thoughts?

Rob

by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on May 2, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions

I dont think Cuban or Nellie would do something that crazy. Since Dirk’s future with the Mavs is in question I think Cuban is planning for that.. They again got beat by the spurs who are just tougher so its not an answer bringing softie turk to a team that needs some toughness and who are trying to prove to dirk they are his team. Golden State has too much good young talent to throw away for a aging SF/PF who scores inefficiently and doesn’t run like a deer. I think the best scenario may be to the 76ers.. in which case Id throw bosh and turk there for AI and brand and maybe a pick or 2. Brand’s contract is less in terms of years than turks (i think) and AI is a perenial All star who plays defence at the wing position

by claws on May 2, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions

And our response will be to hang up and let Bosh go to Chicago or New Jersey.
Seriously, there is no effing way that we will take Hedo’s contact, especially since in order to make salaries match, we would have to give up some of our useful guys – and there is no way I would want to give ANY assets if we would take back Hedo.
Also, btw, we are also not trading Brooks, Yao, Martin, Scola, or Lowry, so stop asking.

Minnesotan Rockets fan

by Barragan on May 3, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions

yao is always injured, so you should consider it

by raptors_run_the_show on May 3, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Hi guys, Rockets fan here

I really hope that we can make a deal with you to get Bosh because we need him to contend in the west against the Lakers, Thunder, Portland, and the rest of the up and coming teams. From my perspective, I think the Rockets would be the best trading partner because Toronto can get the most in return. I know that this is a best case senario thread but realistically I don’t see Morey taking the Turkoglu contract.

I think that a trade along the lines of Battier, Hill, Jeffereies, NY first round pick and cash is probably what is going to be offered for Bosh only. We might add Jermaine Taylor (sg) or David Andersen © if there is a need for them. (Both played well in their first season with the Rockets, Taylor is a rookie with a lot of upside, Andersen is similar to Baragnani, maybe an end of rotation player, he can really knock down the 3 as well).

What do you guys accept this trade? There is more upside for the future I think with the Rockets as a trade partner than the other teams.

by Rockets4LIFE on May 3, 2010 2:45 PM EDT reply actions

The reason why I put Jefferies in there is because he is an expiring contract. He is a very good defensive player, led the NBA in taking charges. He plus Battier, who is on his last year of his contract would give you guys veteran experience as well as a defensive presence.

by Rockets4LIFE on May 3, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions