Some thoughts on the OK City Thunder...from a Toronto Raptors' fan...
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintWith a decisive win over the LA Lakers last night, Franchise feels obligated to discuss his love affair for the Oklahoma City Thunder, their GM Sam Presti, and why in many ways, this franchise is the anti-Raptors...
Admittedly, since the Toronto Raptors limped out of post-season contention, I haven't watched much of the NBA's second season.
There just aren't a lot of interesting subplots, especially in the East, which have me glued to the set.
The Bucks and Bulls, despite wins, all look over-matched, as do the Bobcats and Heat. And while Brandon Roy's return has made the Phoenix-Portland series suddenly quite interesting, Denver looks to be in trouble, and for some reason I just haven't been able to get into San Antonio-Dallas either.
However there is one series I've been watching religiously - the defending champion Lakers versus the up-and-coming Thunder.
I've had my eye on the Thunder for quite some time, back even to their time as the Sonics in Seattle. I was never a huge fan of Jeff Green from his time in Georgetown, but I thought Kevin Durant was the right pick over Greg Oden, whether Portland or "Seattle" got their hands on him via the draft.
And from the signing of Nenad Krstic to the drafting of Serge Ibaka, this team hasn't looked back, culminating in a thrashing of the defending champion Los Angeles Lakers last night, evening their series.
As a Raptors' fan, I admittedly look at this Thunder team in envy and wonder. This team is loaded with young talent that fits the style of play that now thrives in this league, and has done an excellent job managing its finances to this point in order to keep its options open for the future.
In fact, in many ways, the Zombie Sonics, as Sportsguy refers to them, are the exact opposite of our beloved Raptors.
Yes they got lucky and landed a top 2 pick in a year when two potential franchise-changing players were in the draft. However management has also gone to great lengths to surround Kevin Durant with the right type of talent, and emphasized things like speed, athleticism and defence...
...again...the opposite of what Bryan Colangelo has done in his tenure.
The result has been one of the greatest one year turn-arounds for an NBA team that I can remember, and a club that looks ready to rule the West for years to come if it can keep its Durant-Westbrook-Green-Ibaka-Harden core together.
And let's not even get into the idea of Bosh joining that core.
The architect of all this Thunder goodness is Sam Presti. In many ways he's the anti-BC, a GM who had to put in some time in various "inglorious" roles before getting a break with the Spurs. In fact a friend of mine, New York Times columnist Jonathan Abrams, does a great job detailing his amazing ascension in this recent article.
Presti has stockpiled picks (they landed Ibaka thanks to taking Kurt Thomas' bloated contract off the hands of the Suns and still have another first round pick in this upcoming draft as well from that deal), emphasized fit (while Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry have made bigger rookie splashes, Harden has been dynamite as a B to Durant and Westbrook's A's), taken advantage of cap-wary teams to steal nice young prospects (Maynor's theft from the Jazz) and relied on various metrics and statistical analysis to ensure a well-rounded ball club. Perhaps trading Roddy Beaubois for BJ Mullens will come back to haunt Presti a bit (although he did secure a secound-rounder from that deal as well) but by and large Sam and his team have connected each time at bat en route to building an extremely solid base for years to come, and one of the most entertaining teams to watch in the L.
Which brings me back to the Raptors for a second.
By contrast, Bryan Colangelo has looked for the home-run ball these past three years.
I'd argue that most of his success in Toronto has come from hitting singles, doubles and bunts, connecting on solid pieces like Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajosa and Jamario Moon. It's been the home-run attempts via Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Marion and Hedo Turkoglu that have gotten this team into the most trouble.
That's why with the draft on the horizon, I'm hoping that BC takes some cues from Presti and the Thunder and gets back to his Legomaster ways.
Bosh or no Bosh, this club needs a lot of holes filled and I'd much prefer small, deliberate and decisive moves, than more knee-jerk reactions further digging this club deeper into the NBA abyss.
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“Bryan Colangelo has looked for the home-run ball these past three years”
That’s my biggest problem with his approach. Didn’t work for TO’s other sports franchises either.
Nope – I guess you could lump the Jays in that group…and maybe the Leafs via Kessel as well?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
MLSE hand in this?
Seems that most of the MSLE franchises go for the home run ball rather then building the teams for the long run (and lose in the short term). I wonder if the MSLE board is more involved in personnel moves there the Toronto GMs want to let on.
Another solid point
Love to do an investigative journalism piece on this because I think that’s a very valid point. If MLSE is pushing more buttons than they’re letting on, then it probably explains some of these home run attempts.
After all, singles don’t usually attract media and fan interest whereas home run attempts, whether they result in a strike-out or not, usually do.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
It is true in relation to TO supporters too
there seem a constant need to “rebuild” embended with Raotprs supporters….
In relation to Oklahoma, I would say they managed to get a stud in a position that let you dominate, where the Raps got one (Bosh) in a position that does not. For example, taking away the two stars, whose roster would you choice, Miami or Toronto?
me too, but Miami was the 5th seed and To did not make the playoff (I understand I am in the minority but I still believe the TO team had everything it needed to be the 5th and if they could restart the season untouched could possibly end four next year, displacing the aging Celts, but this is another story)
Great point – Bosh, while a great player, does not dominate his position the way Kobe, CP3, LeBron, Durant or even Melo do.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Realistically though I think that the single bunt approach would fit more with the Teachers Pension Fund philosophy of maximizing returns with a lower investment. If they built those teams through the draft they could keep costs low while also building a team that while still mediocre would at least be competitive. I think BC’s homerun approach has come from the fact he has been behind since this team won 47 games then promptly lost a key player to injury. He has been trying to force square pegs ever since. As for Burke, he is just over rated. That was an absolutely terrible trade. I mean I guess if you want a guy who is out for 20 games and projects as a 70 point player then hey, you should give away your potential franchise player picks.
Another good point.
It was when the team floundered in his second season that BC turned to the home run ball to catch up…
…and has been catching up ever since.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
That’s what I’ve always been thinking about. Leafs? Raptors? TFC? This has to be more than just mere coincidence that all three have taken the same or similar approach at building their teams. The Blue Jays, IMO, are starting to take the right approach, and they aren’t an MLSE-owned team. So, I have to believe there is some meddling going on in the FO that we don’t know about and the management won’t talk about.
He's trying to hit a home run by closing his eyes, swinging, and praying.
I can give you a laundry list of reasons why every major move this man has made has been doomed to failure from the start.
I want to cheer for this team, I really do. But many of us know exactly what the result will be of these ill-fated moves, which makes this team even harder to support.
This is probably why I can only stomach posting for about a week without a long break in between.
Nice write up Franchise. Teams like the Thunder and Trailblazers are definitely on the up while the Raptors may get better, stay stagnant or possibly (but likely) decline given their situation and circumstance. I think the Thunder and Trailblazers play so well together because many of these guys have learned how to play with and for one another. I’ve seen interviews with Durant, Green, and Westbrook and you can see that they genuinely care for one another and that they’ll do whatever it takes to win. While the Trailblazers, there are guys like Roy and Batum playing through injuries and doing whatever it takes to one.
The Raptors are compiled with players that don’t through injuries (I mean Ginóbili played through a broken nose) and they haven’t learned how to play with and for one another. Perhaps if they can keep some core players for a long period (similar to winning teams) that can change. But with the current core, winning and sustaining long term success is debatable.
And so yeah, this all points back to BC…
That’s a great point regarding the players “liking each other” etc.
I remember a quote from Nick Collison, about a 10-year NBA vet now, who said that he hadn’t had this much fun playing with a group of guys since college! That’s a huge statement considering how dominant Collison and his Kansas Jayhawks were, and shows just what type of culture the team has created.
I’d love to see the Raptors get back to that.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Players liking each other is really only the icing on the cake. It can be an issue, but rarely is one of the more important issues guiding team success.
If the current Raptors liked playing with each other as much as the guys on OKC do, and sucked as much as they do now, I would not care one bit.
Team chemistry is another thing that is overrated (mostly). Colangelo (and many other GMs) will say that we have X number of new additions, and the team needs time to gel. That’s garbage – they all know how to ball at the NBA level or they shouldn’t be on your team. They may not be gunning at 100% efficiency, but teams are generally float around 80-90% of what they can be even with roster changes. If you’d give this entire team 4 more years together, I doubt it secures home court advantage even once.
Basically, if you stick enough good players together, they will win. If you haven’t, your team won’t make the playoffs. Fine tuning issues like team chemistry, best fit role players only become important once you are a high playoff seed and are involved in high-level, high-intensity games. A highly talented team with little chemistry will still stomp a mid-tier team with good chemistry.
Plus there’s the age old adage that “winning solves everything.”
Had this team been talented enough at both ends of the court to win 50 games, I’m sure “locker room divides” would not be nearly as prominent…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
BC
i agree with you on BC,his home run balls i feel have been fast knee jerk reactions,miscalculated, and he was misinformed about the players. about bosh joining the thunder it might happened but the ans wont be happy about it i was blogging with them last nigh and they all said that they wont be willing to pay bosh a max and it will be hard to s &T with them because they would have to give alot for bosh so i would cross of OKC because there must be more places bosh wants to play. i think Bosh if he leaves then will end up in Houston or Dallas or maybe even laker i would like the Lakers to get bosh so we can maybe get Andrew bynum.
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 25, 2010 10:10 AM EDT reply actions
Another thing...
I mentioned this during my recap of BC’s press conference but it bothered me that Colangelo kept pushing how “competent” his team was based on what others around the league thought.
To that I said “who cares?”
In Bill Simmons latest book he talks about how Jack McCloskey did such a great job building the late 80’s/early 90’s Pistons, but how has Jack done lately? Hoffa? Yikes.
My point is that times change and how you build a team and evaluate talent does too. So saying “we have tons of front office experience” means jack really. It’s like Janet Jackson said at one point…
“What have you done for me lately!”
GM’s like Hammond, Presti, Morey, and Buford have great ROI concerning moves while more heralded GM’s like BC, Dumars and Walsh have struggled.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
top 5 gms int he league today
1. Otis Smith
2. Sam Presti
3. Kevin Pritchard
4 Danny Ange
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 25, 2010 3:43 PM EDT reply actions
Ainge? Wouldn’t put him there – the KG-Ray Allen deal was a no-brainer. Since then, Rasheed has been worse than Turk only on a shorter deal, and Nate Robinson and Marquis Daniels haven’t worked either.
Darryl Morey should be there as well as Hammond, the exec of the year, and Denver’s GM too.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Ainge is a top GM, but he did have the foresight to put himself in the right position to scoop up assets at cents on the dollar. I also put Kupchak in this class for doing well, but I still don’t think he is particularly savvy.
The best GMs consistently make good value-orinted moves. And by this measure, Presti and Morey are definitely at the top.
Pritchard has done well too but let’s not forget that he was gunning for Hedo and fell short.
To assess a GM, you really have to separate the team success from the individual moves they make. You could make a string of moves which look great on a balance of probabilities, which all fall flat due to bad luck – just like you can get jobbed in poker.
The biggest problem that GMs have today is not evaluating upside (as they are all generally optimistic about their targets), it’s mitigating the downside risk. Contracts that are bloated in dollars and years, just like dead cap in the NFL, are team-killers.
Was going to throw Kupchak in there too
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
But he knew to say no to Hedo, and did a nice job getting assets as well as Vince from that deal with the Nets.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
True. I really wonder what went on with that Rashard deal, because he has been pretty good otherwise.
Even getting Alston worked out well last year until they decided to let Jameer blow the season.
It was a case of having to overpay an asset in order to get them to come to you. Not sure he had to but I think that was the reasoning as Orlando was not a good team when they signed him if I recall.
That’s what I was going to say. Overpay for a Tier 2 type to ensure others come-a-calling around him and Dwight.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 26, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Complimentary Talent
Posts like these are the reason I come to this site for my basketball read rather than most of the papers (especially Doug Smith @ The Star who has turned into a sycophant who cannot directly criticize BC).
This quote, I think, is especially salient considering the Bosh’s free agency:
“However management has also gone to great lengths to surround Kevin Durant with the right type of talent, and emphasized things like speed, athleticism and defence…
…again…the opposite of what Bryan Colangelo has done in his tenure."
Complimentary talent, the lack of it for Chris Bosh in Toronto, and the fact that management has shunned this idea will be the reason he leaves this summer. This team has had Bosh for 7 years (most of which he was recognized as the franchise’s future/current cornerstone) and they have not drafted, signed or traded for the types of players he needed to compliment his skill set.
What this team has needed, and not addressed even to this day, is a solid Centre who could rebound/defend/protect the paint and penetrating wing player(s) who could drive the ball to the hoop/dish it out to Bosh for open shots. Instead this team has drafted players with duplicate skill sets (Villanueva/Bargnani), ignored the need at the wing positions (passing on Roy/Granger, etc.), and signed players that filled none of their needs (Turkoglu).
If I was Bosh, I’d be leaving this sort of ineptitude behind too.
Rob
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Apr 25, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
If this was our old site, that would be comment of the week.
Completely agree…the only thing I found BC has done with respect to helping Bosh is upgrading the bench and the point guard situation (no Rafer or Mike James)…but that’s been sporadic at best as well.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Two years ago
I wanted the Raptors to make a play for Nick Collison. I thought his numbers really stood out as a player that may have been underrated. He’s now shown a lot of his worth on the floor by taking charges and such… Something that has been sorely lacking on the Raptors since they lost Garbajosa and then Delfino.
But man… The Thunder are just entertaining to watch.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 25, 2010 5:45 PM EDT reply actions
Ric Bucher's Recent Tweet on Bosh and OKC
RicBucher OK, partly why Bosh-OKC=no-go: he wants to be #1 option in a big city, say teams who’ve asked. Also: OKC would lose some of current core.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
ya when i blogged with the thunder fans they did not want to pay bosh a max deal. plus most of the talented thunder players are still rookie deals so they would have to give up 3-4 players to make the trade work
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 25, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
In other words, Chicago, New York or… re-signing in Toronto?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 25, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
i would include the lakers in that
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 26, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Bosh as the #1 option on the Lakers?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
The shit's chess, it ain't checkers.
This post reminds me of some comments I’ve made before the season and following this one. Thank you for taking the time to put together a quality piece on the subject.
The stark contrast between these two men tells you all you need to know about Brian Colangelo.
Sure, Presti was gifted with Durant. But we had our own high lotto pick which we blew. And to me, that isn’t even the most digusting problem BC has.
His gluttonous tendencies, inability to budget, and sheer wastefulness have run another one of this team’s franchise players and a top 10-15 NBAer out of town.
Sam Presti is calculated, value-oriented, and a goddamn packrat when it comes to accumulating assets. That is what I want. A nimble GM with real vision and who can build a team up from the ashes with a lean payroll.
This shit has been happening from day one. We never should have signed Parker/Garbajosa to 4.5m multi-year contracts. One, our team was not in need of role players – the core was not that strong. Two, he wasted valuable cap space, on those guys which Embry had dealt a 1st round pick to gain – we should have had both for the MLE or not at all. He signed TJ Ford (huge injury risk) to an unnecessary extension he regretted the following offseason (sound familiar?).
I am sick and tired of a GM who says things like: “He was the best FA at the time. I had to sign him.”
Or indirectly blames his not making the playoffs on not being far into the luxury tax.
The bottom line is this: Brian Colangelo is not worthy of GMing the Toronto Raptors.
Think about this: We are going to be worse than the New Jersey Nets shortly. Possibly, as soon as next season. A team that was on pace to be the worst of all time through 09-10. Despicable.
And if Colangelo is to redeem himself, my message to him is this:
- The fans who have vision for longer than one season were not wowed by one sham of a division crown. Own up to the fact that you bungled one of the league’s prime rebuilding opportunities into one 47 win season and more seasons out of the playoffs than in. So stop acting like a clown and making excuses.
- Take a long-term focus. Trade wins now on your lottery team for wins later. Don’t buoy the team’s win total with unnecessary veterans who will not be productive or present during the team’s window of opportunity. It is wasted money. There is a time and place for acquiring expensive players.
- Stockpile assets which other teams will covet.
- Understand that you have no entitlement to luxury tax dollars. In fact, your job is to make the best team with the least amount of money.
Sam Presti is calculated, value-oriented, and a goddamn packrat when it comes to accumulating assets.
Great quote – the packrat part especially.
D Stance and I were talking about this the other day but yes, it’s quite possible that next year sans Bosh the club will be looking up at the likes of the Knicks, Nets and even Pacers.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Any GM who can do this is good in my books. 2nd rounder + cash for 3 first rounders, Brent Barry and Francisco Elson.
July 20 2007
Traded a future conditional second-round pick and cash to the Phoenix Suns for forward Kurt Thomas and the first-round picks of 2008 and 2010.
February 20 2008
Traded forward Kurt Thomas to the San Antonio Spurs for guard Brent Barry, center Francisco Elson and a 2009 first-round pick.
if bosh leaves who will be the franchise player. will we not have one? will it be bargnani? or will it be derozan?
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 25, 2010 8:47 PM EDT reply actions
Great, and scary question.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 25, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Raptors' franchise player = No one in particular
I think that’s a good question, and the fact that you even have to ask it means the answer is that nobody will be the Raptors’ franchise player; I don’t think you get to have the moniker “franchise player” by default; Is Brook Lopez the Nets’ franchise player? Does that even sound right?
Without Bosh, and everyone might as well get used to this notion now, this team will simply be a collection of players working together to earn the right to draft first overall in 2011. No franchise player because Derozan will be a 2nd year player just learning how to be a consistent NBAer and Bargnani will be a fifth year player…..just learning how to be a consistent NBAer.
Rob
PS-Thanks for the kudos Franchise; where else can a person post a comment and know other people who love ths team will actually take the time to read it. Thanks guys.
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Apr 25, 2010 9:19 PM EDT reply actions
if brooke lopez improves his game then yes he can be the franchise player of the nets. most likely it will be john wall/evan turner i think the nets have a really bright future and look for them to be the thunder maybe even better because the have a dominent post player like brooke lopez , they have a amazing pg devin harris and some solid wing player like williams and douglas roberts. they just need a leader and i think they will find one in this draft
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 25, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Watching the Thunder take apart the Lakers
It was a combination of admiration and jealousy… not to mention slightly depressing when I thought about the Raptors’ situation.
Nicely timed post. Calling the Thunder the ‘Anti-Raptors’ is bang on.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 25, 2010 10:58 PM EDT reply actions
OKC is not OK in TO
.
The OKC team we see kicking Lakers ass (in the last 2 games) would never materialize in Toronto.
There is one constant, to why the Jays, Leafs, Raptors (and to a lesser extent Argos) never have great success in Toronto. That one constant IS Toronto.
Toronto is home to rabid fans & media, that change with the leafs (no pun intended) … Bright and colourful in the fall ….. then nothing left (but dreariness) in the winter (the Jays being excepted for this seasonal analogy).
Building teams never get to really BUILD in TO – at some point the plan is scrapped, and prima donnas are dropped in. Draft picks last so long, then are sent elsewhere to blossom. Listening to comments about moving Andrea, and to a smaller scale Demar, is a pattern akin to the mouse in a spinning cage.
Patience is not a virtue in Toronto. And as a long-time supporter of most Toronto teams, that’s the difficult part to handle.
.
Free Agents
.
Aside from Hedo – apparently the biggest Toronto FA signing — what significant free agent has signed with the Raptors since Year Zero?
I know the Toronto / Canada / small market (basketball) has been discussed to death, but I have to wonder why we can’t attract quality players – in all this time. That’s a question I’d like to understand better.
.
It is Canada. The Blue Jays went through the same thing for a number of years and they didn’t even have option of bringing in Euros (they went Dominican instead). It is the US centric view that many of the players are spoon fed from birth. The fact you have to have a passport, higher taxes etc all factor into their decision.
The fact that we haven’t attracted a significant free agent does not mean we can’t have quality players. The environment for us to sign a top FA has never been as good as it has been with other teams.
Also, we could just draft and then extend our good players like we did with Bosh. Unfortunately, we waste most of our draft picks.
Finally, it’s not as though Toronto is the least desirable NBA city to play in.
Raining on the parade...a little
While I think that Sam Presti is a great GM I would like to point out a few things:
1. The easiest way to look like a genius is to luck into an all-world player when you have a high draft pick. No one in Bargnani’s draft can hold a candle to Kevin Durant(closest would be B.Roy) and no matter what kind of mega-brain is running your team (BC, Presti, Popovich or whoever) if there is not an absolute stud the year you happen to have the number one pick then you are SOL.
2. Seattle did the suffering and now OKC gets to enjoy the fruits of the painful rebuilding process. Is there anything more unfair than that?(maybe the Avs winning the cup the year they left Quebec City). This team move was a total travesty and it taints the franchise.
3. Again with the draft, suppose the league hadn’t changed the draft rules and Oden and Durant had been elligible the same year as Bargnani. BC might have taken Oden, but he could well have gone for Durant and then where would things be?
I agree that Presti has been much more judicious that BC and in a market with lesser media spotlight and an organization with less corporate bureacracy that is certainly easier to do. Not to say that Presti isn’t a great GM who would look good running the Raptors, but don’t overlook the importance of luck and circumstance when conferring the mantle of genius on one exec or another(BC included).
Completely agree
1. It has to be the luck of the Raptors that the year we get the first overall pick, there is no consensus number one calibre player. That is unfortunate more than anything.
2. I always wanted to touch on this. Everytime i watch OKC, I feel terrible for Seattle fans. Even if they do get a team, how bad must it feel to know that the league’s leading scorer was basically robbed from you.
Bullshit
Just because there is no consensus #1 pick doesn’t mean you use the first overall on 7-foot Italian project that essentially duplicates the skills of your star PF (except none of those skills are actually better than those of your PF) and doesn’t address your team’s needs; when that draft also included 2 very good wing players (Roy + Gay) who would have definitely addressed this team’s GLARING need on the wing for athleticism/scoring/penetration.
Bargnani may still turn out to be a very good player; maybe the best of that draft. However, this team didn’t need him at the time, and even if you’re not a draft for need type of person, Bargnani wasn’t even the biggest talent (at least not definitively). If he were the most talented, we wouldn’t still be waiting for him to put it all together after 4 years in the league.
Rob
PS-Yes, Roy and Gay were not legit #1 picks at the time, but you can’t tell me that Colangelo couldn’t have moved down in the draft for something nominal, just to take one of those guys at a lower spot. BC was in love with Bargs and his potential and forgot to look around for better fits for this team.
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Apr 26, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Bargnani may still turn out to be a very good player; maybe the best of that draft.
I can confidently say I’m positive that will never happen. LOL
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 26, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Find me one person that was planning on taking Brandon Roy number one overall. He wasn’t even Portland’s first pick that year. No one saw that coming.
And why on Earth would someone want to move to the number one spot that year when there’s no number one talent. That’s a suggestion that works in theory but is impossible in practice. A team has no incentive to give up future picks/impact players to move up in a draft where the guy they’d pick at number one is not that much better than the guys available at 5-10, etc.
Missed the point
What I am saying is that none of the options Bargnani, Gay, Aldridge even Roy is at the level of a Shaq, Duncan, LeBron or even Durant(who is only going to get better). Having one of those guys show up in the year that you have the #1 pick is sheer luck(unless you tank on purpose in a certain year). However, it can make or break a GM’s reputation.
Suppose LeBron had gone to college and then come out the same year as Bargnani, does anyone seriously think that Colangelo would still have drafted Bargs with the #1 pick? If so you are basically a hater, because even us idiots on the message board could get that pick right.
Sorry
I got carried away………………
It will never happen again, I promise.
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Apr 26, 2010 8:15 PM EDT reply actions
Context?
What do you mean? I thought this whole thread was about the management of the Raptors by Bryan Colangelo, juxtaposed against that of Presti in OKC?
You don’t think draft picks are relevant to that discussion?
Rob
by 2nd Raps Fan in LA on Apr 27, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Presti’s strategy has been good, but I think his franchise’s good fortune in having Durant fall into their lap at the draft adds a lot to his lustre. Colangelo may make mistakes due to impatience, but if there had been a Durant/LeBron/Duncan/Shaq-level player available in the 2006 draft then Colangelo would have taken him over Bargnani and the Raptors would have been up amongst the top seeds in the east this season. Bargnani at the time seemed like the best of a mediocre crop(Ray, Gay and Aldridge may be better than Bargnani, but they are nowhere near Durant/LeBron/Duncan/Shaq).
My point is that Presti may or may not be a smarter/better GM than Colangelo, but there is no disputing that he was luckier the year his team had a franchise-changing pick. BTW, was he even with the team when they drafted KD?
Even VC was surrounded by complimentary players
2 trades stand out from that era:
Jonathan Bender for Antonio Davis,
Marcus Camby for Charles Oakley
You already had your franchise player, and you needed tough veterans to complement him.
The Jermaine O’Neal trade was arguably the only time that Colangelo traded a pick/younger player (TJ Ford) for a more experienced player (O’Neal) to play beside Bosh.
As much as the Milwaukee trade this year (Delfino/Ukic for Amir/Sonny) looks good from the Raptors perspective — imagine what would have happened if we kept Delfino, never signed Hedo, and took that $10M/year cap space to steal away picks and/or tradeable veterans from a team desparate to dump payroll. The Raptors could be sitting on multiple picks in this years draft, and probably would have made the playoffs because Delfino is arguably a better complimentary piece to Bosh.
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