RaptorsHQ De-Brief - Bryan Colangelo's Press Conference Recap Part I
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 10:21 AM EDT
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PrintIn what unfortunately has become routine for the Toronto Raptors, Bryan Colangelo spoke to the media yesterday afternoon trying to explain what went wrong in what was supposed to be a promising season. RaptorsHQ was there to capture all the gory details...details which they break down piece by piece over the next two days...
When Bryan Colangelo took the reigns of the Toronto Raptors some four seasons ago, I was ecstatic.
Here was one of the league's most respected General Managers, willing to head north to provide some much needed swagger and guidance to what was at the time, one of the NBA's most rudderless teams.
Results were immediate.
Players were shipped out, vows of "cultural change" were made, and the team made the playoffs in his first full season, jumping from 27 to 47 wins and capturing the Atlantic Division title.
However to a certain extent, it's been all downhill since then.
Yes, the team won more games (40) than last year, but this season was perhaps twice as crushing as fans saw a talented club play its way out of the playoffs in the final games of the season.
And the moves by Bryan Colangelo, whom I once dubbed "the Legomaster" due to his ability to constantly move the pieces of the team around, haven't worked out to say the least.
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Nathan Jawai and PJ Tucker
-And to a lesser extent, perhaps even the likes of TJ Ford, DeMar DeRozan and Andrea Bargnani.
Nope, it hasn't been pretty.
That's why yesterday's press conference hosted by Colangelo, was such a frustrating experience from a fan perspective. BC took no blame for perhaps the most disappointing season in Raptors' history, and again claimed that the club was "close."
As some of our readers said via Twitter - "close to what?"
Yes, close to what indeed.
I've decided therefore to really get into Bryan's chat with the press yesterday, transcribing most of his key points and providing some commentary on them.
Note - BC talked for over an hour yesterday so there was a LOT of content to go through. I decided therefore to break this into two parts; part I today and part II tomorrow. The full bunch of clips can be seen here.
Heeeeeeeeere we go...
BC opened with this description of the season:
"...Frustrating season, very disappointed, I'd be leaving it short to call it anything anything less than heart-breaking to sit here and talk about the off-season we're about to embark on. It's never easy to look at a team that you think perhaps underachieved and underperformed, and that was really the story of the season."
He then went on to compare the season to a game of basketball, saying that "in the first quarter we didn't get off to a very good start, middle two quarters we played very well and probably beat down our opponents. And in the fourth quarter we couldn’t finish the game..."
Ok so nothing much to hit on here. The team did indeed under-achieve and bookended its season with some terrible play, costing them a shot at the playoffs.
Here's where things get more interesting:
"...but it’s important to acknowledge that a team with 29 wins going into the All-Star break, which ties a franchise record for wins at that moment in the season, is not a bad basketball team. It's important to note that a team that is able to put together a 25 and 11 stretch during a 35 stretch of games is not a bad basketball team. It's an inconsistent basketball team to end up with just 40 wins, but it's not a bad basketball team."
Here's where my issues start.
We're talking about a club that put together its best string of wins (8 and 2) against some of the league's worst clubs. Yes there were wins over the Lakers, Mavs, Magic etc...but we're still talking about a Raptors team that had only one more win against .500 teams than did the Clippers! How is this NOT a bad basketball team? 40 wins isn't good - in fact, considering 42 wins is .500, this isn't even an average team. And for those who say "a bounce here, a Bosh put-back there and this team could have won 45 or more," you could say that about most teams in the league.
The saying goes, "you are what your record is," and I truly believe this year was a great example of that. Next...
"It's important that this so-called frenzy that's occuring right now, this very negative picture that's being painted about our situation is not as doom and gloom as many want to make it. And I say this with great confidence. We have already gone through an assessment...of where we are, where we fell short, what areas of weakness we have, and what we need to address. And those issues will be resolved and be fixed in this off-season. And we're starting at a place much further along I woud say than some people would like to think. We've got a core of players who are very talented, we've got good young basketball players that continue to develop and emerge...look at some of the situations that happened this year, the emergence of Amir of an Amir Johnson, you look at Sonny Weems, DeMar DeRozan, and the continued evolution of Andrea Bargnani. We've got a good group of young players. We also have very tradeable and marketable players, and we know that because of conversations we've had, at or near the trade deadline and througout the season when we're discussing personnel matters with other teams. I'm confident to say that we've got multiple assets on this team that will either continue to play for us and develop as players, or be part of things to address some of the areas of concern we might have."
More issues.
First of all, who are all these so-called assets and "tradeable players?" Most of Toronto's big contracts look untradeable unless BC gives up some of the team's upside pieces like Weems and DeRozan. Perhaps he means the expiring contracts (next season) of Marcus Banks and Reggie Evans etc but those types alone aren't going to bring in the necessary pieces this team needs.
And as a fan, how can you not feel a bit as if "doom and gloom" is upon this team?
The club just did its best crash and burn job yet, is likely losing its franchise player, and doesn't have any money to work with to replace him! Um...moving on to the Q and A section...
Q: What happened after the All-Star break?
BC: We all saw it unravel, but to put your finger on one particular thing, there’s been a lot of talk of outside influences and Chris in fact acknowledging that there are outside influences. It was perceived that it was only about Chris Bosh. Our entire team came back from the all-star break a different team with a different mentality. I’m not pinning this solely on Chris Bosh for this team’s demise down the stretch, but it would be somewhat remiss not to acknowledge we’ve had this on-going issue off free agency and discussions among the media and question marks surrounding his status going forward, it can’t help but take it’s toll on a locker room.
The notion of going to a convention of sorts and all the NBA voices talking about opportunity in other places – free agency is a big issue for a few players. We came out of the all-star break with 29 wins. In our first game back Chris Bosh got hurt and ended up missing 12 games – a significant amount of the remaining schedule. It was injury related but there was a host of other things that affected the overall psyche of our team. This can’t be pinned on Chris Bosh. This can’t be pinned solely on the injury. This was a collective spiraling of issues. Unfortunately it was tough to get back on track and when we didn’t get on track, another injury occurred.
Anyone else satisfied with this response? Didn't think so. The "collective spiralling of issues" doesn't sound much different to me than what certain other teams had to endure. I think it's safe to say there was a lot more going on than "free agency issues" or "outside influences," and this is confirmed later on in the presser. On to Bosh talk...
Q: Are you still inclined to build around Chris?
BC: I’ve said this before: We remain Chris Bosh’s best option to maximize his contract potential. Whether that’s re-signing here or goes out in the market and we work out a sign and trade. Chris said it best: Whether or not he stays, we’ll be working together, discussing what options we have. But it’s not often an athlete walks away from a significant amount of money that’s the advantage we have with him either signing with us or working with us on a sign and trade. But there will be no answers until sometime after July 1st and it may take several weeks after that. We’re still looking at a three-month window as to when all of those things work themselves out.
Q: How do you respond to the allegation that maybe Bosh isn't a franchise guy?
BC: ...there are probably only three or four guys in the league who are franchise guys worth maximum contracts but quite a few more receive maximum contracts. Chris Bosh is our maximum contract guy, who is considered the cornerstone of the franchise because of his abilities for the same reason he’s considered one the top players out there – a top-three if not top-five. He’s a guy I think if you can secure that asset, you keep that asset. If you take that asset and turn it into other pieces, that’s what you do. It’s going to be difficult and I’m not sure you get dollar-for-dollar, but I’m not sure we would ever have gotten that, even if we had gone to the market a year ago or a year and a half ago. Contract are not always justifiable in sports, they’re just not. But it’s a situation where Chris Bosh is considered a maximum contract player for multiple reasons and I would assume he would do that if he stays here.
I'll save my comments here till after my first two questions of the day:
RHQ: If Bosh does leave, can you just talk about Andrea Bargnani, how ready do you think he is to possibly replace Bosh to take over that lead role?
BC: I don’t know if he’ll ever be ready to replace Chris fully, but he’ll have the opportunity to assume a much bigger scoring load, he’ll have the opportunity to emerge as a more a dominant scorer within this team. There’s times when he gets a little lost in the offense and he gets a little anxious when he does touch the ball. But you’re talking about a seven-footer who is 24-25, he’s gotten better – with the exception of maybe staying flat the second year – he’s gotten better every step of the way. Despite the constant, constant criticism of the contract, it’s a very good contract. There are a lot of people out there in the league that seem to agree with us. That it’s a very good contract for a kid with that kind of production and that kind of potential. For another $15M more you can get 1.2 rebounds from LaMarcus Aldridge, and arguably they're in the same category. Maybe it's neck-and-neck right now, LaMarcus is a little bit ahead but we're talking about guys in an equal talent area and it’s a very good contract. There’s a lot of value there and there’s a lot of interest in him. He’s going to have a chance to emerge if Chris leaves and if Chris stays then we’ll find way for him to get better at things he needs to get better at. You could say rebounding's a concern, he’s got a little bit better, but it’s not good enough.
Defensively, he’s one of our best post players. He averages over a block per game or one and a half blocks per game, whatever it is. He’s become very effective at that. Is he a good weak side defender? No, he needs to work on that, instinctively. We need to be collectively a better group defensively because we don’t have really solid man-on-ball defenders. We need to be better, especially if there are straight-line drives coming from the top. We need to work on our interior defence or weak side defence, people coming over to help and being more of a presence.
Andrea is going to have an opportunity to grow as a player for sure.
RHQ: Do you think the fit's still there between Bosh and Bargnani though, playing together?
BC: Yes. As he gets more and more accustomed to or comfortable with playing in the post, which he has gotten much more comfortable at doing, he’ll be even that much more effective in situations where he can thrive.
It’s the miss matches we have at both positions and their interchangeability that make them effective together.
So first off, I get the feeling from this that Bosh is a goner and BC knows it. I just didn't feel from his answers here, and to some of the questions that followed, that Colangelo was ready to do whatever it took to keep Bosh. That's not necessarily a bad thing in terms of overpaying or promising the moon to a non-LeBron type, however you could argue that BC's backed himself into a corner now, and there's nothing much he can do.
And you knew I had to get into the Andrea stuff. It seems that BC either is doing one hell of a job of trying to keep Bargs' trade value high, or he's still got the blinders on in regards to his prized first-overall pick. I did take some comfort in his answer to my question regarding Andrea replacing Chris, however the defender stuff makes you queasy. Averaging a block a game does not necessarily mean you're a good defender. Not to mention that Andrea has barely improved over the past few seasons statistically, or that we've seen very little evidence that he's best served playing with CB4.
What I really found interesting though is that unprompted, out came the Andrea contract talks. From this one has to think that Colangelo is quite sensitive about the issue and this line in particular really made me scratch my head:
"There are a lot of people out there in the league that seem to agree with us."
Who cares?
Isn't this akin to a guy talking to his friends about a girl he's unsure of dating and saying "you guys think she's hot...don't you?"
Our GM is supposed to be confident in his decisions! There are always going to be folks who disagree and criticize you Bryan, that's what many in the media get paid to do! So why feel the need to validate your actions by making statements like this?
Really for me, this was a first as one thing I had always respected was the authority and confidence that BC carried himself with. Yesterday it all seemed to lose its luster and in many ways I felt I was looking at pyrite...the proverbial fool's gold.
What I really wanted to follow up with was a third question then regarding the timing of the contract, both his and Marco Belinelli's in fact. Thanks to Bargs' extension, he now has what capologists refer to as "the poison pill provision," meaning he can no longer be traded individually for another player with the same salary. Instead, his salary essentially must be averaged out along with a group of other players' salaries in any trade scenario. It's not as bad as him not being "tradeable" until after December 15th as I originally believed, but it's yet another restriction BC had prematurely put in place.
Unfortunately we had moved onto another topic...Jose Calderon.
Q: What happened to Jose Calderon this season?
BC: He missed his first free throw (laughs). It might have been an omen. It might have been a bad sign. He didn’t seem to play with a whole lot of confidence. There were some minor injuries that affected him throughout the year. The combination of Jose and Jarrett has to be looked at. It’s something we’re talking about. They both want to be here. They both have professed to not care about starting. Clearly there was some sort of disconnect there. We need more consistency at that position. It’s just that simple. That’s probably an indictment of both of them. At the same time, it’s an acknowledgment that we’ve got two very talented players that are capable of playing and starting and leading the team. Jose did it during stretches and Jarrett did it during stretches. We need to truly ascertain whether they can play together and co-exist. If we come to that determination that something needs to be done, we’ll make a move. That’ll be something that we heavily scrutinize this summer, this off-season.
This might have been the biggest tip of the hand all afternoon.
From Colangelo's response it seems quite clear that either Jack or Jose are gone next year...however it's hard to say which one it wil be. BC expressed a desire to have "a starting point guard who averaged 10 assists a game" and unfortunately Jose is the only one of the two that fits that bill. His value is likely much lower than Jack as well due to performance, health and...oh yeah...that giant contract.
However on a team needing major defensive upgrades, it makes a lot more sense to move Jose.
What puzzled me was Colangelo referring to a "disconnect there" regarding the two point guards. Unlike the Jose and TJ situation of years' past, I didn't think there was any issue other than the fact that Jay couldn't decide who to play when, and that Jose simply underperformed. To me it's quite simple; the team has two back-up point guards disguised as starters, both of whom are unfortunately locked into long-term deals. If I was a betting man, I'd say that moving one of these two players is the surest trade scenario this off-season.
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Stay tuned for Part II tomorrow...
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Bargs and Defense
I actually though BC was pretty accurate in his assessment of AB’s defense. He admitted that he is a bad help defender, which is true, and he said he is a good man to man post defender, which is true (most of the time, when he wants to be).
And I think he mentioned what other GMs thought as a validation was simply implying that AB does have some trade value, and he is not an immovable contract.
I have criticized this team alot this season, but I’m starting to think that BC did as much as he could possibly do. Can you name any other MLSE teams that are making drastic changes to improve their team and appease fans. MLSE won’t let him go into the luxury tax, I mean what can we expect? He tried and unfortunately some players didn’t feel like showing up this season. The only fault I would have for him is that he still doesn’t feel that there is a coaching issue, which I disagree with. Think back, we were all excited with JO, than Shawn Marion, then Hedo. He brought a buzz and excitment to this franchise and unfortunately those players didn’t pan out (ah-hem coaching).
I was NEVER excited about Hedo…even when he was with the Magic.
I loved the Marion deal but only if Marion was kept around…and as for JO, I was ok with the move but more because I felt that TJ had to go.
The reality is, I’ve just never been a big believer in the majority of Colangelo’s decisions and most have not panned out. So I found it hard to sit there yesterday and here the same “we’re nearly there” speech as last year…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed that his decision making, in hindsight has not been the best, but he has to work with what he has. He manufactured alot of deals when there wasn’t very much wiggle room, and I would expect more of the same this summer. He is definately not the Legomaster and deserves some critcism, but let’s face it, he’s no Rob Babcock. I also can’t see how bringing in a different GM would help this team improve very much (again MLSE tax issues). I still think a coaching change to somebody who yells and has balls would be the best solution here. You play harder for someone you are afraid of disappointing.
As well...
…I haven’t gone so far as advocating a new GM…however I don’t see how after a third-straight disappointing season, a good critique isn’t well deserved.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
we could of traded T.J ford for gerald wallace but the bobcats wanted a draft pick and i think colangelo didnt want to give them one but imagine gerald wallace on the raptors
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
so true.
I didn’t like the Marion deal since we were giving up yet another #1. But then again, what were we to do? Pay JO another 20 mil? Which perhaps would have been better than paying Hedo 50 mil.
This is like using the martingale strategy and busting. The uptick never seems to come in BC’s chain of maneuvers.
I have been as hard on Andrea as anyone, but despite what he is lacking (aggression on offense, any kind of help defense, rebounding), his contract isn’t THAT bad. I think we tend to lump his contract in with Hedo’s and Jose, which are far worse in my opinion. The combination of the 3 is poisonous but Andrea’s contract by itself isn’t terrible. The timing of it was a gamble by BC that Andrea was going to build on the finish to last season. Had he done that, this would look like a great deal. Unfortunately, he probably took a small step backwards and given the market conditions, we probably could have got him for $1 – $2 million per year cheaper.
I was only excited about the JO trade because he brought toughness and he had a $20 million expiring contract. If JO had played well, we would have been a playoff team. If he didn’t, well, we’d score 2 quality draft picks to load up on talent AND have $20 million to spend this summer. THIS is BC’s first big panic mistake, as he dealt for Marion trying to salvage last season. That trade freed up some cap space last summer, which we turned into Hedo’s atrocious deal (panic mistake #2), brought us Marcus Banks’ atrocious contract, and cost us a draft pick down the line.
Had we just held onto JO, we likely would’ve maybe been slightly worse meaning a better draft pick, no Hedo to kill our cap going forward, and $20 million to spend in addition to money to retain Bosh. On top of that, we probably wouldn’t have had that “fools gold” finish to last season, so we would’ve ended up with a better draft pick than Demar. And if Bosh didn’t sign with us, we would’ve had $35 million in cap space. It also would’ve eliminated Miami as a free agent destination as they wouldn’t have had JO’s contract.
We are going to pay for that mistake for years to come.
Had we just held onto JO, we likely would’ve maybe been slightly worse meaning a better draft pick, no Hedo to kill our cap going forward, and $20 million to spend in addition to money to retain Bosh. On top of that, we probably wouldn’t have had that "fools gold" finish to last season, so we would’ve ended up with a better draft pick than Demar. And if Bosh didn’t sign with us, we would’ve had $35 million in cap space. It also would’ve eliminated Miami as a free agent destination as they wouldn’t have had JO’s contract.
We are going to pay for that mistake for years to come.
This is a point that really hasn’t been discussed enough…the knee-jerk Shawn Marion deal really could be the crippler on this club for a while unfortunately…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
But it didn’t have to be. If they had’ve offered Marion a deal in between what he got in free agency vs. what the Raptors overpaid for Hedo, I think Marion would’ve at least signed on for a few more years. Money talks, after all…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Marion would’ve likely stayed had we offered more, and he was a better fit than Hedo, but we weren’t going to be a championship contender with or without him. The cap space was our key out of “treadmill team” hell. To sacrifice that cap space for a chance at a 31 year old Shawn Marion, when your consolation prize was Turkoglu, Ariza or Artest, seems extremely shortsighted given how much hype the 2010 free agent class was already generating.
BC had to know who would be available, and should have been able to figure out that even if he struck out on big free agents, he would probably have to opportunity to pick up a very good player at or below market value given all the free agents available.
That deal was only as bad as it was because of the pick. Getting the cap space for Oneal was not a bad thing. Just how BC used it.
I disagree. Giving up the pick was bad, but we also took Banks’ contract on which meant $5 million less in cap space this summer, and I’m repeating myself, but BC traded cap space in a loaded summer for cap space in a summer where the best Free Agent was Hedo Turkoglu. Regardless of who Colangelo spent money on that summer, it wasn’t going to make us significantly better.
I agree with you
When we made that trade, that’s exactly how I felt – with Bosh coming off the books and JO too, we wouldve had a ton of money to use. We could’ve been one of the teams in the running for a top FA.
Banks’ contract is not that bad. As it is an expiring deal it can have some value to other teams looking to lighten their load for the expected 2011 lockout/strike. The pick to me is a much worse issue right now because it means that it will take longer for Toronto to get over the hump competitively. Good teams use mid to late 1st round picks to get them over the top when they are unable to draw FAs (think San Antonio). Trading away your picks all the time will keep you in the land of the mediocre.
What was everyone expecting from this conference
To be honest, I think BC is amongst the most open GM in sports. He was about as frank as you will see any GM get.
He was openly critical of Bargnani’s rebounding and help defence, Turk not being ready to start the season and how he handled off court issues, the play of the point guards, rookie coaching mistakes, lack of players with defensive abilities and coaching scheme, how Bosh and others handled outside influences, etc, etc. These are not excuses to shift blame away from himself, they are fact. Quite honestly, he was more openly critical than you usually see from GM’s.
To be any more openly critical would only weaken his position when dealing with other GM’s. I’m not saying that he would be pointing out things that others don’t see BUT you never want to come across as desperate as that does weaken your bargaining position.
Yes, he has made mistakes and indirectly he acknowledged many of them. I may be in the minority here but I find BC’s openness quite refreshing.
Agreed
You can always find reasons to be negative, I’m actually optimistic.
The team: I do think we have a great young core. Watching DD, Weems, Johnson and JJ operate for years to come would be great to watch. Think a young Hawks team. Add to that AB, CB4 and pieces and I do believe we have a good team that will be exciting to watch for years to come.
Coach: Yes, he made mistakes, but I think he will be fine. Have you never made a mistake at work? He’s a young coach and will grow. He has the player’s respect and is great tactically. He’ll get better at managing the rotations.
BC: You guys are crazy. He’s the best GM we’ve ever had. You point out all the misses, what about all the hits? Parker, Jorge Garbajosa, Weems, Jack, Johnson, Wright, DD, Araujo for Hump. I was with him in thinking this was the best team we’ve ever had. Didn’t work out, but I trust no one more than him to change things up and get us back on track.
Most interesting insight from yesterdays chat: S&T for Wright, great way to bring in more talent. Also, that we will be a tax team.
“just didn’t feel from his answers here, and to some of the questions that followed, that Colangelo was ready to do whatever it took to keep Bosh”
Really? Isn’t going into the tax a big step?
I would much rather be reading about the exciting possibilities that await us than a blow by blow analysis of why you think our GM sucks. As Doug Smith pointed out, he said what he had to say and none of it should have been a surprise.
Luckily, we do not have any influence over who our GM is. I’m happy he is at the helm and I look forward to many exciting years to come.
And I don’t want to hear BC say another word about Weems…a player he nearly waived and who I knew more about than he did in pre-season. That was pure dumb luck, not GM skill.
And sorry but Parker, Garbajosa, Jack, Amir and Hump don’t exactly add up to Jerry West in my books.
I’m not into beating a dead horse but I completely disagree that fans should just throw their hands up in the air and say “yeah, that sucked but next year will be better.”
Because that’s been the case now the past three seasons to a certain extent.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
May you're tough
So he gets no credit, just all of the blame because you saw Weems first?
No one ever said that these guys were Jerry West, and maybe that’s where the disconnect is. Maybe you’re expecting our players to be at that level and they are not.
Next year will be better, not because BC said so but because we do have a good group. We need to fix some chemistry issues, some defence at the point of attack, some changes in minutes allocated (looking at you Hedo) and we have a good group that’s right back at the 4-6 range.
An aging Celtics, a S&T for LeBron, some more development and recruiting by Bosh and we can move further up. It’s not all gloom and doom. This is not the worse team ever constructed. 8-2 is a hell of a record even against bad teams. They played like a top seem in the middle of the season, we all saw it and I’m tired of people dismissing that as playing bad teams. It wasn’t. Clearly there are some things to fix but I’m with BC, we have the makings of a good team.
So yes, next year will be better and my hands aren’t up in the air.
How will next year be better if Bosh leaves? They will struggle to get 20 wins.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention that teams like the Nets and Knicks via free agency could get a lot better themselves…
And Zona, one thing I don’t get is that last year BC said that, and the team won 33 games? At one point should the fan base not demand more from their GM?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
but then again we might get lucky draft someone like brandon jennings and be the new bucks LOL who am i kidding we will win 20 games for sure we are nothing w/o bosh but hey look on the bright side we could draft harrison barnes
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Weems
No. I think what Franchise is saying is this. We have been advocating for more Weems since pre-season. However, Colangelo was almost going to release him to free up a roster spot instead (just to illustrate how wonky our judge of talent or philosophy of building this team is right now).
Since then, Weems was a deep bench guy with almost zero minutes. He was given a chance after Hedo experienced family issues and Antoine Wright was injured. He got minutes and showed to many of us that he could be extremely valuable to this team. Then, people got better, and he got buried again. The Raptors kept losing without any hustle/athleticism, and we all wondered why Weems wasn’t played more. Finally, injuries forced the Raptors hand into putting him into a starters position where he florished at the end of the year.
There’s a LOT of questions surrounding that.
And Franchise is wondering if BRYAN COLANGELO is Jerry West in his ability to bring players over. NOT THAT THOSE PLAYERS ARE WEST.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s the best GM we’ve ever had.
That’s not exactly huge praise when you consider who the previous GMs were.
Grunwald may not have been the best GM in the world, but at least he had the stones to go on court in front of the fans at the end of the season. That is one tradition we should have kept.
Agreed and his team at least made it to game 7 of the second round so saying BC is the best GM we ever had is ridiculous. Where is your evidence to back this claim up? Forget what he did in Phoenix because that was then. This is now. Show me stats to back up your claim please.
Totally agree.
This reminds me of something BC kept doing yesterday – comparing his performance to that just before he arrived…
No kidding that it’s better but how about comparing the job you’ve done to that of your peers on successful clubs!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
You miss the days when we signed JYD, Alvin and Carter to those rediculous contracts?
BCs best quality is making something from nothing. We were all staring at years of trouble after previous GMs screwed up. What BC has proven time and time again is that he can effect change. He is the right man for the job and there is no one else I’d rather have in his seat.
So who gets the blame for this season?
If you think things went swimmingly, then no one.
But if you’re disappointed in what went down, who do you point the finger at? Hedo? Sure…he’s an easy target. But like the drafting of Hoffa, who was responsible for the initial decision?
That’s why I couldn’t believe he didn’t take any blame for what happened last year! Hedo wasn’t prepared, we had injuries, we had chemistry issues…
I’m sorry but what I did expect was a GM to acknowledge there were flaws in his plan…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Who said things went swimmingly?
I didn’t hear BC say it and I don’t think thats what the posters are saying (I’m certainly not). As for the GM acknowledging that there are flaws, he spent half of the conference talking about them. Would it make people feel better if he started to cry and beg for forgiveness.
Its going to be tough enough to get any kind of value for our assets. Come across as defeated and desperate and we are really toast. I just don’t get what you want him to say that will help our situation?
Agreed completely
You need to realize he’s still got to rectify the situation. Claiming he made the biggest blunder in resigning Bargnani and aquiring Turkoglu basically closes the book on any trade possibilities. He has to be smart and make it sound like he has something worth trading. The presser is for the fans, yes, but I’m betting GMs around the league pay attention to what they all say. I think he did a good job acknowledging the failure of the season, while also maintaining that other teams don’t see us as a joke. We need to temper our expectations here. It’s a damn presser. He can’t just say “I effd up” and lose all his credibility.
Who gets the blame ??
The players who stopped playing after the all-star break !!!!! End of storey. Forget last year, its done and gone, and did not work for whatever reason, beyond 40 wins.
It’s Colangelo’s job with the backing he says he has from MLSE to fix it. and create a winning team at whatever it costs. Why would he lie?? He is going nowhere, wants to stay and do the job. Take him at his word, sometimes things work, sometimes they do not, if not, work to fix them till they do.
Look forward to next year and the moves to be made with or without Bosh to meet the objectives for a 50’s win team, and play-offs success.
Who brought those players in though? Can’t the argument be made that had BC brought in the correct additions, things wouldn’t have tanked the way they did? Look at teams like the Bucks and Bulls? They dealt with injuries (more on the Bulls’ side) and turmoil and surpassed Toronto!
And if the blame is on the players, how does that get fixed if the GM who brought them here, needlessly locked them into huge long-term deals? Everything is only fine if he can jettison some of this deadweight (that he created might I add) out.
Sure, it’s fine to say “season is over, I look forward to the next” but if the next contains the same issues (which has been the case now the past 3 seasons) then doesn’t that make you frustrated as a fan of this team?
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Franchise:
1. I have never seen BC look so dishevelled. He looks like all of this is taking a toll on him. That just an observation.
2. As GM he can only go so far in ‘eating crow’ in public, but I felt that his responses were adequate on the majority of topics regarding ‘team weaknesses’. To admit soemthing is wrong with the very foundation and core of his building philosophy is something very few execs will ever do in public ~ and it preserves the integrity of some of our assets and our team (as a prospective destination for attracting players); But further, I dont think his apple is rotten to its metaphorical core at all…
3. There are limts to the level of accountability that you, I or anyone else have in holding a GM to account. At least BC faces the music in an adequate manner, is intelligent, has shown an ability to recognize when things aren’t working – and to make approriate changes. Flawed may they be to us – say by sticking with Triano and Bargs who are ‘still learning the ropes’ etc etc.
4. I personally stopped being a Leaf fan when John Fergusson Jr took over. And i guess that is the ultimate way to hold a sports team accountable… look at all the woe I dodged…
5. I think BC really hit a chord when he noted what the toll of a lack of an Anthony Parker has had in terms of team cohesiveness, leadership and chemistry (things we were all lacking).
6. And not as a BC apologist, or CB4 hater – but when a player won’t commit to your franchise – and then becomes very hesitant in that he is litterally beggining to sprout wings – and this is diferent from what D.Wade and Bron are doing – and yes it could be becuase Bron looks like he is going to get the cup, and Wade made the playoffs. All acceptable reasons – but there is the addage that ‘your true freinds are those who walk in the door – while everybody else is getting the f**k outta dodge’
Really? So the Raptors missed the playoffs because Anthony Parker went to Cleveland? I wish I had known that as I know it is not BC’s job to replace departing players or anything like that.
1. The AP signing with cleveland happened just before the ‘miracle’ 4 team trade happened – and AP and BC wished they could stayed together. At least this way AP gets a chance to go for a championship.
2. Yes, AP is ‘getting old’, but its not his floor presence that the Raptors miss the most.
3. If you have a team which is filled with a diversity of backgrounds, languages and lack of fluency in ‘canadian’; Lets say becasue you have a team with folk from compton, philly, texas, israel, turkey, spain, england, china, congo, nigeria, haiti, iran, or perhaps even a gay player. I can’t think of a better player in this league to have in your locker room than AP – none.
4. Now put this diverse team though the hell of an 82 game NBA season, with all the presurres the Raptors did (new coach, new faces, the euro v american issues, bosh leaving, some ‘communication problem’ between all levels within the Raps players-coach- and management) is a task I would call on AP to help with 9.9 times out of 10.
Obama gets the other 0.1%
Calderon, Bargnani, Evans for Arenas, McGee, Thornton
Make this move Colangelo! I’m not really a believer in the Bosh-Barg frontcourt and with Arenas we’ll get a legitimate scoring threat and an all-star. McGee has heaps of potential and will only continue to improve. If he stays out of foul trouble, he’s a really solid center.
I’d roll the dice on this…although perhaps more of a lateral move than anything else. The defense doesn’t get any better with this move…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t our interior defense improve? I think McGee is superior to Barg and Arenas to Calderon. McGee is a ferocious shot-blocker and again, his biggest flaw is his tendency to foul. Instead of having Barg run to the opposite end of a court after a shot, the Raptors could have Bosh AND McGee fighting for an offensive rebound. Thornton’s also not a bad defender and he’ll also contribute some boards.
Interesting to note...
that the number of BC apologists seems almost equal to the number of Bargnani apologist.
BC has averaged 40 wins since arriving and will be losing the best player in franchise history for virtually nothing. How can you defend this?
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions
Dude
It’s not about defending him. I know he’s at fault for everything. I just don’t get what you expected him to say yesterday. He has his hands tied behind his back. YES, it’s his fault. He can’t just come out publicly and say he was an idiot for making mistakes. I’m sure he knows it and one can only hope his approach to improving the team will be different this time around.
My comment...
had nothing to do with what BC did yesterday
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
In that case
My bad. Fascinating debate though. Everyone’s split on this lol.
It is a very interesting debate and perhaps I was a bit too negative to start the post – think I’ll do a better job explaining myself to start Part II tomorrow.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Apr 20, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Franchise your too negative like seriously we will only bad for a season like there is a positive to this atleast we will get a top pick next year
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
@Franchise
I find myself defending BC just to get a rise out you lol. I have not seen such angst from you before, it’s nice. I actually tend to agree with Johnn19, if the players kept playing after the break (BS excuses about extenuating outside distractions aside) this team would be in a very different position and we would not be having this discussion. They lost to some really bad teams after the break that they were beating before the break. Something must have changed and I don’t think it was BC’s fault. If they had finished in the 5th or 6th spot we would be singing his praises, even though it would be the exact same team. Point blank, certain players stopped playing but continued to receive minutes, and it wasn’t until the last few games that changes were made (ah-hem coaching again).
I think the “disconnect” Colangelo referred to is that both point guards claimed not to care who started, but that didn’t seem to be the case in reality. Jack, to me, was clearly bothered when he went back to the bench. Calderon was not as obvious but I still saw signs of disappointment and frustration.
The tandem works well when they can start one, go to the other, and then finish the game with whichever one is bringing the most that night (and sometimes both, sorry). The tandem works because if you always go with the best guy its better than either one individually. It doesn’t work if the guy coming off the bench is either pushing or pouting.
I've been looking at the sky
My view
I do not understand where this undue criticism for the entire organization has come from. Everyone seems to be pretty quick to jump the bandwagon from AWESOME to horrendous in a few short months. I do believe that BC has a harder job then any other GM in the league. Not only is Toronto a small market which is difficult enough to convince Free agents to come to. He has to try and convince them to come to a completely different country which at often times is impossible. Not only that when considering someone to draft he has to look at the long term character of the person so that they will stay in Toronto for more then a Rookie contract (See Stoudamire, Tmac, Carter, Camby, etc…). We have the ability to groom players for stardom in the NBA the fact that he has found some good young players that legitimately want to be in Toronto i think is a great stepping stone. He made a stretch with Turk but i would be excited to get a percieved top level free agent to want to come to Toronto as well.
Now on to the Chris Bosh topic. With or without Bosh we will still be a top 10 offensive team in the NBA. Making up the scoring will not be as difficult as people are thinking when you count on the young development on the roster. It just means more shot attempts for other players and who we will work the offense through. Now having said that I think we are a ways away from having a player without him that can consistently draw double teams but there are some intriguing names in the Free agent market.
If Bosh goes i think we don’t miss a beat by plugging a more athletic younger rebound put back scorer who is developing his came constantly in Amir if we can sign him long term. However the bench behind him gets a little bit more shallow (Joey Dorsey, Patrick Obryant, Nesterovich, Reggie Evans if healthy) not exactly house hold names so depth at the 4/5 spot will be an issue.
The one thing that is bothering me about many of your comments is the AB rag fest. The kid is pretty good and would be considered a solid player if he had not been taken with the #1 overall pick. But you should not be considering him as your prototypical center. Look at the fashion that they use dirk in dallas, they have a stable of young “True” centers to come in and take the banging from the best opposing big men and handle the rebounding duties. He never was considered a great rebounder just looking at his career averages. He was also not considered a great low post defender (Bargs may be a step ahead when it comes to playing a true center in the post). According to NBA.com we have the 5th leading scoring center in the entire league. Not bad as far as i’m concerned especially when the players above him are considered their teams #1 options and get the touches that go along with that. I do see the defense problems on help side but for most of the season he was able to handle the other opponents best low post scorer and keep them to minimal influences (unless they got on the offensive glass).
The problem with having too many offensive weapons on the roster is they all will have to take a step back from what they are capable of. You expected Turks stats to decline in the scoring department this year because he is playing with player that can create for themselves not just dunk or knock down three’s. There is only one ball on the court and we have a lot of players that can do things with it.
Now on the the point guard position. I like all of the guards on the team for a variety of reasons. JJ is gritty tough and has a passion for the game that can not be ignored. However he does not have a true point guards feel for the game thinking that he has to do everything for the team at certain points instead of differing. An example is the dozens of time when the game is on the line or slipping away he walks down and takes a contested 3 without ball movement or a move with 20 seconds remaining on the clock. I cant fault the guy for doing his best for a team and trying to make a play. Jose is the prototypical old school point guard. He shoots a great % high assist to turnover ratio and can average 14 pts and 10 + assists when healthy and confident. However his defense is not good when having to go against some of the elite speed guards in the eastern conference which puts undue pressure on all the other players to make up. One player who i wish we could have tried out a bit more was Marcus Banks. I know what everyone will say he isn’t a great offensive point guard, but the guy can flat out defend. He shot a high percentage while covering for Calderon at the backup spot. The guy is a great athlete who is strong and quick enough to give guys like rose and harris fits.
As for the undue negative attention for Derozan… He is 20 years old and Kobe Bryant has compared his work ethic to his own… Anyone who receives that kind of credit from one of the best players and the hardest worker in the game will do nothing but good things in this league. The sky is the limit for this young man and i hope that he will be around for a very long time on this team. Especially if he continues to do some off season workouts with Kobe himself that would definitely help him both offensively (playing against the best) and defensively (playing against the best). Not to mention the friendship he has forged with another hard worker in Sonny Weems. Together they could become a very potent 2,3 combo in the NBA.
Thank you and that is all.
41 Wins is .500 but Toronto only had 40 wins which is less than .500.
Please do not compare Andrea to Dirk as Dirk was putting up Andrea numbers in his second year not his 4th. By his third year he was averaging over 9 boards a game and over 20 points per game. If Bargnani was putting up those numbers no one would be complaining. Hell, if he was putting up the numbers he did this year in his second season we would all be very happy. Instead he seems to have peaked already and I have doubts about a guy improving in rebounding (especially) who admits he gets lazy sometimes when it comes to rebounds. That is a massive slap in the face to every fan in Toronto.
Not everyone can start their career by playing with 2 HOF point guards in Steve Nash and Jason Kidd. Shooting percentages except for freethrows are practically identical. So then the difference must be in number of shots attempted which could be effected by having other ball dominant players on the roster. Also Dirk was older then Bargs when entering the league if that matters at all… So your only difference between the two players other then having an offense work around him and hall of fame point guards is the guy has lapses in his focus on the defensive end including rebounding…
You’re trying to compare Dirk Nowitzki to Andrea Bargnani using box score stats while discounting defence and rebounding (somewhat critical elements for a starting NBA centre).
But then I realized you can’t be serious – and are obviously just trying to provoke a reaction – when I read this comment:
Not to mention playing on some of the highest scoring most free flowing teams in recent history.
Because obviously that was Bargnani’s problem this season: not playing on a team that emphasized offence.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It is a team that is based on offense for sure. But you cannot compare Dallas 6-8 years ago to Toronto today! That offense was playing at a very high level which Dirk was the main Focus. I say again there is only one ball on the court. Only one player gets an opportunity to shoot it.
Chris Bosh missed 12 games in which Andrea Bargnani had the opportunity to be the focus of the offence, and he failed miserably. His numbers actually regressed with Bosh out (when you’d expect the opposite).
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess that means your not paying attention to the fact that he averaged 21.4 points per game in the last 5 which i believe bosh was out for.
Wow, he is underpaid because he averaged 21 points against 5 horrible teams. What an all-star. BC should rip up his contract and give him the max.
Cuz thats the point he was making?
He’s just saying Bargnani showed something at the end of the season. And regardless of how you put it, if you ask another team who theyd rather have on their team out of Calderon, Turk and Bargnani (all of whom earn about the same), I guarantee they’d want Bargnani. All I’m saying is Bargnani is the least disconcerting of our problems right now.
Where do you get that from? Dirk was about 20 when he came to the NBA (born 1978 first season 1998) so we are talking about months not years of difference. As for playing with all star players, Nash was not an all star at the time Dirk came into the league. He played 96 games in Dirks first two seasons and didn’t come close to putting up All Star numbers until Dirks 3rd year when he put up 15 pts and 7 asts per game. Dirk was simply a better player and is always going to be a better player (overall). Bargnani has potential to do a few things better than Dirk but he will never come close to producing like Dirk does.
OH my god your so right! Why dont the raptors just completely quit then there is no hope! No more playing for anyone… lets just call it a year right now. just take 5 wins and a draft pick next year! Another opportunity to waste another #1 overall pick!
Congratulations McGateway you are the ultimate anti fan!
On the contrary I am just more a more educated fan then yourself. If you choose to believe that crap is chocolate frosting then so be it. I am merely pointing out you need to actually know what the hell you are talking about before your open your keyboard and say stupid things like “Dirk played with an All-Star like Nash and Kidd” or “Dirk was older when he came to the NBA then AB was” just shows that you do not know enough to talk about it. You are entitled to your opinion but at least make sure you have some facts to back up your arguments. Being ignorant probably does make you a better fan then me though. After all, you are the kind of fan BC and MLSE want because you will baa along with the rest of the sheep and hand your wool over without qualms. BAA BAA BAA BAA. Bleat my sheep like friend, bleat your life away.
Gents...
you guys are some of our best posters…albeit with different opinions. Keep the conversation on point please and no tirades against the poster.
Fantastic discussion for the most part however.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 21, 2010 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think any of us have a problem with DeRozan. We just question how smart it was to draft a project when you have to retain the services of Chris Bosh. He’s still in his first year and it will be a while until anyone knows how he will perform. And you’re right. This is a good environment for him.
And I also don’t believe anyone who reads Raptors HQ is a bandwagon jumper or such. All of our people who read about the team and who write about this team love this team and follow it from win to win, to defeat after agonizing defeat.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That is absolutely fair. But as said above if we would have stumbled into playoffs getting the 7th-5th spots we probably would have still been one and done unless matched up against the Celtics who are the weakest of the top 4 everyone would have been singing a different tune and i don’t think that bosh would have changed his mind to any large degree. If he is leaving he is leaving and if not 4 more games in the playoffs would not have mattered.
I understand the criticism of a “Project pick” but sitting at that position in the draft there were many concerns about players listed above like blair, collison, and even jennings. Blair had severe questions regarding his knees thus falling into round 2. Collison was not projected to make such an impact as a pro. And even jennings with tremendous ability had questions about playing time and shot making abilities in rome. He took a safe pick for perhaps an athletic wing star.
I’m not sure. I think Chris Bosh would be sold better if he can at least say “well, I broke my face, and we’re going to get killed in these playoffs, but at least the talent around me is halfway decent”.
I’ll put it another way. The 2006-2007 team also lost Bosh for a significant stretch of that December. They didn’t fold, and instead, remained competitive and continued to battle with teams and even gelled a bit more. If the team did that, at least I think Bosh would feel more comfortable saying “yeah, this place has it going, they only need one move or two to become the best”.
Yeah, I’d agree there were no “safe picks” but the consensus was at least 2 years before he’d be ready, and instead, we have him starting on our team for… what? 60 games? That’s not his fault at all, but I think goes to illustrate how flawed some parts of management have become.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Excluding the terrible bulls game at home what was the combined differences in the losses leading up to that against some of the top teams in the league. So i would say that they did compete but they just came up short. Im not defending them but a stretch of games against Golden state, Cleveland, Boston, Atlanta 4 games in 5 nights is not a terribly easy schedule for any team to play against. Not to mention that they were close in all of those games minus the last 3 minutes!
No, for sure. But it was the stretch before that which was more concerning. We’ve got to remember that three of the five Raptors starters were basically replaced during that stretch. You could argue that DeRozan really shouldn’t have been starting past the first few months of the season. And well, you lose something going from Bosh to Johnson of course. But Turkoglu? I think that change really defined a lot and was a large reason why the Raptors were better in the last set. Because before that, when Bosh went down with an injury before that, the Raptors were an absolute mess with their starting five.
So if you’re Bosh, looking at the situation, you say, OK, the Raptors played best with maybe Jack, Weems, Wright, Him and Bargnani. That means that Turkoglu will be a $10 million bench warmer, who is also playing with a $9 million bench warmer in Jose Calderon. Wright is a free agent, and the best backup big man is a free agent as well. Something significant will need to change before I come back because if I’m playing beside Calderon, Weems/DeRozan, Turkoglu and Bargs again next year, it’s not going to be good.
So yeah, I think Colangelo has a shot at this, but he’ll have to act before Bosh makes a decision. I think this is contrary to what a lot of reporters and people (like Jack Armstrong) are saying. But as I’ve said for a while, Bosh is going to give this team like a month after the free agency period starts to really show him that this team is going to go right. And Colangelo cannot simply sit in this roster the way it is, or there’s no way Bosh will return.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
At the beginning stretch of the season there was no other choice in the starting lineup. Weems was still a major unknown leading up until the final stretch of games. And i believe Antoine Wright was shooting downwards of 25% from the field in the first half of the season.
I agree with all of your other points but i think as we have seen in the past Colangelo is not the type of GM that will rest on a team. He will make significant moves that affect the makeup of the team. But they will not take the form of 9 new players. Having said that i think there are plenty of teams that would be willing to take Calderon can you envision calderon running up and down the floor knocking down three’s in new york, passing the ball to a variety of free agents that ultimately show up there. I would say that regardless of his contract he is not untradeable. I also believe that other people will also have interest in turk. If we get anything back in terms of a trade there i would be open to it.
I still don’t think Weems was unknown. As I wrote above, he was playing significant minutes during the Raptors run in the middle. It’s like they just forgot about him when other players (like Hedo) got healthy. And while I agree Wright’s shooting percentage was a concern, the Raptors desperately needed to get stops. On this team, Bargnani, Bosh and Calderon/Jack are more than capable of carrying an offensive load for most of the game.
But yeah. We’ll have to wait and see how Colangelo handles all of this. Like him or not, he’s all we’ve got and this will be the most crucial off-season in recent Raptors history. His strategy towards it will be a major factor in what we get out of the off season and just how many people are going to turn on him.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Would everyone feel much better had the following been said
Ladies and Gentleman, I will keep this short because I have already wasted 6 months of your life.
This season has been a complete and utter failure and I don’t see a way out of it. Where do I begin?
Bargnani…what was I thinking when I drafted him? What was I thinking when I gave him that contract? God help us if he’s leading our team next year.
Bosh…see ya. I knew I should have traded him at the deadline. As if anyone is going to give me something in a sign and trade now.
Hedo…thank goodness for Gilbert. No one can acuse me of handing out the worst contract in basketball.
DD…what was I thinking?
Jose can’t guard my grandmother. For those of you who want me to trade him…as if.
The rest of the team…well they don’t have enough talent to waste your time on (I did promise to keep this short).
Triano…yah he’s inexperienced but at least he kept the naysayers focussed on him instead of me.
Whats left to say. I screwed up and the situation is hopeless. We are losing the only good player and are left with not a single tradeable asset.
I would normally take questions now but that would be inappropriate as I have resigned due to my ineptitude and have accepted a job as a scout for the timberwolves.
Happier things
NBA Jam is coming out fall 2010 :D Good times. However, it’s Wii only for now
http://nba-jam.easports.com/home.action
(Yes, I’m trying to change the subject a bit.. I need a palette cleanser after the past couple days)
I wonder who will be on the Raptors’ roster
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
if you listen closely...
to the BC presser – he’s not talking to the fan base or the media: he’s talking to other GM’s.
I don’t consider myself a BC apologist, and I certainly could do without bargs on the team, but you guys really are turning on the guy. there are 2 moves (I think) that can now be looked at critically: 1) drafting bargs, and 2) bringing in JO. most of the moves after that were reflexive. now you can say those 2 moves are wrong now, but they both had merit at the time.
To all the peeps who think the Raptors are ok and just had some bad luck
Uhm whatever.
Record against non-playoff teams – 26-9
Record against playoff teams – 14-33
That is not a record you can be proud of. Remember 16 teams make the playoffs which is over half of the schedule. The Raptors compiled 26 wins against 13 teams including a crazy 11-5 Divisional Record. That looks great on the surface but considering they went 0-4 against Boston and beat the crap out of 3 team of which two have no star talent to speak of and the other one is just as big of disaster as the Raptors are. How often does a team get to play in a season where a team comes close to breaking the NBA worst record record of only 9 wins? They still couldn’t make the playoffs. If you believe that NY, Philly and NJ will all be as bad next year you are crazy. One of them will get better and steal a few more wins from Toronto. This team as constituted is not going to make the playofffs next year either baring a major change of some sort.
BC says that the talent is here.....
and I agree with him. Where we disagree I fear is who those talented players are.
This 50 win crap is getting tiring. The goal shouldn’t be to win 50, the goal is to win a championship. The question needs to be: who out of this group can get minutes on a championship calibre team and what would there role be.
The role definition on this team the past couple of seasons has been terrible. The 47 win team that we had in 2006-2007 had it’s star (Bosh), it’s complimentary players (Parker, Garbajosa, Rasho) and a decent bench. That’s why they won. The only glaring problem with that team was the point guard controversy (which we still have), and rebounding issues (which we still have). This year, we lacked role players and while we added another “star” in Hedo (I gagged typing it, believe me), we’re about to lose the only real star we had. That means we’re lacking all the major components of a winning team and until that gets addressed, we will be a bad basketball team.
I’ve posted this before, but assuming Bosh leaves, you plan around the following players going forward:
Jack (backup PG on an elite team, but has the kind of toughness we need)
Derozan (young, has a chance to be a very good SG in this league)
Weems (young, also has a chance to be a very good SG/SF in this league)
Johnson (if he signs of course. young and would be a good fit as first big off the bench)
Whatever we get in the draft
In addition, I would give Bargnani 1 more year to prove he can be a legit impact player in this league. Next year is make or break for him, in my opinion.
As for the rest, I would do away with them as quickly as possible and get what I can for them, but whatever we do get should be brought in with the young core in mind.
I have this nauseating feeling that Jack will be dealt and not Calderon. I don’t care if Jack has more trade value, you cannot win with Jose Calderon as your point guard unless you surround him with very good defensive players. As mentioned above, I think Jack is a decent piece to build with.
BC needs to sign Weems to a long-term deal now. He will get him much cheaper this year than he will next year. That would go a long way in showing me that he knows what he’s doing.
Same feeling
If Jack is traded in order to keep Calderon, I’ll be so annoyed. Really don’t like Calderon’s game on this team at his price. I still do think he has some value to contenders with defensive post presences who need a back up PG.
I agree with you. At this stage Jose is not an even close to being a full time starter on an average team let alone a great one. That isn’t to say he could become great as it Nash until his 30s to be come a MVP candidate but right now I am not sure he will ever be worth the money he is making now.
No one is saying that this team cannot have a future. The issue is how do we get there as the current incarnation of the Raptors is at best a .500 team. We cannot afford to trade away all of our picks to get rid of the people who need to go so I am not sure how we can rebuild currently.
I agree with that. Don’t give away any more picks or any of the young core. If something presents itself as far as getting rid of a Calderon or Hedo goes, do it. Otherwise bite the bullet and collect picks.
In addition, I would give Bargnani 1 more year to prove he can be a legit impact player in this league. Next year is make or break for him, in my opinion.
Exactly the way you want to describe a player whose 5-year / US$50 million extension is about to kick in.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 3:43 PM EDT reply actions
Like I said above, the contract was an obvious gamble on BC’s part and so far he looks bad on it. But if Bargnani shows some significant improvement over the summer and turns into the player that he’s shown flashes of becoming, then the contract seems like a good deal and he’s an affordable piece that we can build around.
If he can’t step up, he should still be able to put up similar numbers to what he’s done this year, and that should be enough to get us something decent in a trade next summer. I’m sure some GM can be talked into a 25 year old averaging 17ppg and 6 rpg; our’s certainly has!
Getting old
Your cracks at AB are getting old.
Is he the picture you see when you look up “#1 pick in the NBA draft”? No!
Is he the worst centre to ever play the game. Yes! (according to you.)
AB has a good contract for what he brings to this team. Maybe if you stopped anointing him as Bosh’s replacement, you can see what he actually brings this team instead of what he doesn’t.
On another matter, I’m finding your recent posts quite disturbing. I’ve always enjoyed this blog in the past but to be honest, in the past few weeks – ever since the writers of this blog decided to actively cheer for the Raptors to miss the playoffs – I’ve been asking myself whether this blog is still a daily must read. Now I certainly don’t have to agree with everything you write. But the past few weeks have been so disconcerting that I question if this blog has gotten away from what made it so good to begin with – Insightful analysis of this team instead of what it’s become recently – a shameful bashing of everyone and everything that is Raptors.
Just in the past few weeks on this blog we’ve:
- publicly hoped the Raptors miss the playoffs;
- complained when they did;
- Compared BC to Bush (save me the "that’s not what I meant rant", any comparison to Bush is an insult)
- Traded Bosh
- Fired Jay Tiano
- Hoped BC does not come back as he is the worst GM we’ve had and never got even one personnel move right (yes, we forget about the Lamond Murray days and the Yogi Stewart contracts because after all, those were the heydays where we didn’t have the gall to sign the star from the previous year’s NBA finals to our team. I mean what was he thinking?)
- Sent AB back to Italy;
- Sent DD back to the bench where he can stagnate over the next few years; and
- chastised Jay Triano because we saw Weems first.
I personally hope this is just the bitterness flushing out and that we can get back to insightful analysis shortly.
Deep Breath
Analysis such as:
Despite opening myself up for ridicule, I agree with BC that “we are close”. That’s because we do have talent. I believe we are missing the following:
• A point guard who can defend the point of attack – this instantly makes us a much better team because the scramble style of defence we play and the wide open threes are all in response to the break down at the point of attack
• A glue guy veteran that can help the team meld and fix the chemistry issues
• Improvement on the glass which will come naturally with ABs continued development, the athletic players we’ll see on the floor on a more consistent basis and the fact that the defense won’t be out of position because of the first point above.
• More experience and improvement at the coaching level which will allow for better rotations and minute allocations
I don’t think the above wish list would be difficult to achieve.
Of course we need Bosh to come back. I believe he will. He seemed very jovial and comfortable with his teammates at the last home game. He loves Toronto and the "I want to win" reason does not take him to NY or Chicago. Also, would you rather have the Paxton situation to deal with? I personally take BC.
On another note, one of the most significant reasons that we are not in the playoffs and the Bulls are which has yet to be discussed (aside from us missing Bosh and no it does not compare to Chicago’s injuries) is the schedule. We ended the season against teams anyone could beat at any point of the season and played Charlotte and Boston tough during the season. Chicago played these same lesser lights during the season and went up against Boston and Charlotte at the end of the season where the bulls experienced no resistance. That’s the benefit of two easy opponents which we didn’t get. Add Cleveland to the list and that’s a big reason why we are having our press conferences this week instead of next.
I agree with most of your points about what we are missing, but I do not share your confidence that it will easily be addressed.
We already have a point guard that can defend the point of attack. His name is Marcus Banks. Sadly, it’s been decided that he isn’t good enough offensively to put on the floor. To get a guy like Darren Collison (he might be getable), seems easy enough, but you still have to move 1 of or both of Calderon and Jack to free up minutes, and to replace whatever we had to give up to get him. That will prove difficult.
I would love to see us grab a Kurt Thomas or Juwan Howard type. There are a few around, but it has to be a guy that will provide some toughness. I like Rasho; I’m glad he likes the city; but please, no more Rasho’s.
With Weems playing the 3 instead of Turk, we were a better rebounding team. But while 1 or 2 more rebounds a game helps, it’s not enough. Bargnani HAS to get better at this in the offseason. If this is the only thing he accomplishes I would be happy. I want a 9 rebound average next year. For his size and athleticism, that should be a given.
Triano can draw up plays, but he struggled mightily with everything else. Hopefully with a year under his belt he will be better able to manage matchups. His failure in this area cost us at least a few games this season.
I don’t think Bosh comes back unless BC makes some significant changes before he makes a decision. I look at Chicago and he seems like a great fit alongside Noah and Rose. He isn’t going to NY unless Lebron or Wade goes there. Houston is another good fit if they can find a trade that makes sense (since Houston won’t have cap room).
You are right about the schedule at the end, but they let alot of winnable games get away to put themselves in that position. To me, the season was already a failure. Making the playoffs would have been fun for a week or so, but the story of this season was already written in my opinion.
And Mistafitz beat me to a lot of the points about the schedule. But yeah. If we’re going to go that route, we were also lucky that the Bulls faced so many injuries during their year as well.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Chicago
If Bosh goes to Chicago, one of Rose or Noah won’t be his teammates as they will be playing in Toronto. So why go play with Rose and no one else when you have a better supporting cast here?
I agree with most of what you said but there’s no way in hell either Noah or Rose comes back in a sign and trade.
Bingo
And that’s why Bosh is not going to be in a Bulls uniform because $30M is still $30M and BC is 2 Erics and a Mourning short of a Rob Babcock
BC isn’t going to play hardball with this. If Bosh wants to play in Chicago, he will help facilitate it. I could see us getting Deng and one of their wings, or a draft pick.
Look what BC did for Marion last summer. Whether the Hedo portion went through or not, he was planning on doing the sign and trade with Dallas. Expect something similar to happen here. BC will not want to tick off Bosh’s agent by refusing to do a deal if there’s a reasonable one to be made.
Luol Deng would probably come back. Remember: If a team has the cap space to sign Bosh outright, that gives them a bit more leverage to play hardball in a sign and trade.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes but if you push too hard, Bosh is going to Golden State or somewhere else in a S&T.
There are 30 million reasons to do so.
Uhm Bosh has to want to go to Golden State. This is the issue I think a lot of fans do not understand about sign-n-trades. The Raptors have 0 leverage other than the fact they can sign Bosh to most money and most years. If Toronto gets uppity about it, Bosh can just sign where he wants and tell the Raptors to shove it and they get nothing. Bosh has indicated he is willing to work with the team but that will only go so far.
i won’t defend D Stance cause he and I are in a lot of disagreement about Bargnani.
But your list of needs, while accurate, is not an easy one to address. Point guards who can defend their position are not a dime a dozen. Neither are “glue guy” veterans who are not way past their prime.
It is not going to be as simple as targeting someone the Raptors want and attaining them. There are a ton of salary cap rules that will prohibit the Raptors from simply going out and signing the best available option at whatever price they want. Don’t get me wrong. It is doable, but it’s in no way easy. $6 mil to sign two fairly significant pieces is not going to be simple, which is why we know the Raptors will have to pursue a trade. Now, finding a trade partner that wants the Raptors players is going to be difficult considering Jose’s difficulties the past couple years and his length of contract. Evans by himself won’t get you anyone back of significance, but pairing him up with Banks or something might be ok.
You may not want to hear what we want to say about these issues, but guys like Michael Grange, Bruce Arthur, and Tim Chisholm see the world a lot like ourselves and it’s not pretty.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Veteran
Willis and Oak weren’t in their prime but were great glue guys for us. I don’t think you need to have someone in their prime and then the price tag also gets easier on the wallet.
I’d add a S&T for Wright to the list of assets.
Although I may disagree, I don’t mind your opinions on the team. In fact I look forward to them. But you’ve said your piece. AB and BC are still here. Deal.
It’s time to move onto other topics.
Although I enjoy reading Grange, he also predicted that Jay would be fired. He wasn’t.
Agreed
Yes, they definitely were great glue guys. But they were also extremely valuable and productive pieces. I still remember how Oakley and Davis took control of that team in 2001-2002 and willed them into that first round exit. (Sure scared Detroit in the process)
But I think those kinds of players in today’s NBA have a lot more value than they did before. I think they’re a much more rare commodity and finding that guy to play on the Raptors and be comfortable in their role is going to take a lot of searching. The Raptors needs this guy to be a productive piece unless they find a way to free up more cap space because they can’t afford to put a body on this team purely for veteran leadership. There’s not a lot of Darrick Martins around the league who don’t make a fuss about playing time.
I will deal with both BC and AB. I’m pretty much going to be done talking about this past season now. I let it out, and everyone also seemed to let it out in that piece I wrote. If any of this comes up again, it’ll be with what someone on the Raptors say about the previous season or a player. I’ll be purely reactionary to all of it.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Oakley was great because he was able to coax effort and focus out of a young Vince Carter. And then we got to see the REAL Vince for the rest of his career.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the boxing out argument, isn’t it? Hahaha
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
we need a mix
i like how up beat you are but things are not all jolly in raptor land but we are def not dead like franchise says so we need a mixed blog you are to positive and franchise is to negative
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
AB is not worth the contract. Forget that he was the 1st overall pick. The issue is this, if AB was an unrestricted FA this offseason, how much would he be worth. The answer is at best 6-7 mil based on what he has shown so far. I would be completely shocked if someone offered him more. BC gave him that contract based on half a season a year ago where he averaged something like 15 points and 5 rebounds and nothing else. Look around the league and show me another player that averages that and makes 10 mil per year and I will show you another bad contract. So I looked around the league to do some comparing.
Rajon Rondo – 9 mil moving up to 13 in the final year. Who would you rather have?
Loul Deng – About 11.5 average. Also overpaid but I would still rather have Deng.
Shawn Marion – Cheaper and gives the same numbers from the WING POSITION.
There are further examples of even worse contracts and even more of better contracts (Anderson Varejao comes to mind).
Absolutely agree McGateway...
Argue back and forth about Barg’s skill set all you want, the fact of the matter is the NBA is a free market system. There is no way Bargani gets a $50 mil plus deal in this summers market. No way.
Someone said above that BC gambled and signed Bargani to this deal, well you are right. He gambled and lost. Not the first time. So he deserves some critisism for this one, plain and simple.
Absolutely disagree Bargsbust er.. McGateway...
Should have quit while you weren’t ahead.
Not sure what you do, but I hope you are better at it then you would be as a GM.
Way to pick out the stats that highlight your point. Rondo? You are comparing a 1 to a 5 in this league? You need to look at others in the same position, not has beens on the decline of their career like Marion.
“AB is not worth the contract”
Here are some numbers to consider:
Aldridge $10.7
Camby $10
Murphy $11.9
Okafor $11.5
Chandler $12.7
Curry $11.3
Dalembert $12.2
Okur $9.5
Thomas ? Not sure what he will sign for but it will be close to $10
KMart $16.5
Nene $11.3
I’m sure there are others but I stoped looking. Hell, I think Ostertag is still collecting more than $10m a season.
Bad contracts? Perhapse. Or, just maybe, that’s the going rate for a 5 in this league.
15 and 5? Again, not sure where you get your numbers from but AB averaged 17.2, 6.2 and 1.4 this season. That’s exactly -0.7, -1.8 and +0.8 worse/better than Aldridge (17.9, 8, 0.6.) Oh, and AB made 116 more 3s then Aldridge while shooting better from the FT and 3pt line.
“how much would he be worth. The answer is at best 6-7 mil”
Just how much do you think AB is making next year? Would it surprise you to hear that he is inked in at $8M? That’s just outside your range, isn’t it? That’s also lower than everyone on the list above.
Aldridge will be making $10.7M. Is that a bad contract as well? Are there any GMs out there that have a starting big man without a bad contract in your opinion? Is it possible, just maybe, that $2.7 million is a fair difference for 0.7 less points, 1.8 less rebounds and 0.8 more blocks per game?
The other factor to consider is that I don’t think I’ll get too much push back from posters on this site if I were to suggest that AB has a way to go and is not playing at a level that he has shown at times during the season if he imporved his consistency and focus. Aldridge on the other hand is playinng very much to his capacity. I would propose to you that AB has the greater upside of the two players.
I think I’m the only HQer who thinks that Bargs’s contract isn’t that outrageous as he’s a young center in the league. As a position, centers are often overpaid anyways.
I think though, that everyone is all in a tizzy just about how the contract came to be. But for now, if it is as how Hoops Hype has it now instead of how they had it last year (which was $10 mil flat across), I’m a bit better about it. I still don’t think he’s that overpriced and his contract isn’t the one that’s killing this team.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
lol. I mean, out of us writers. Sorry. Haha. Have to clarify everything lately.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
you guys need to add zona to your team he is the much needed positive influence in your writers team
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No disrespect to Zona, but I’m sure there’s something that will have him all negative and all the rest of us being positive as well. It’s just that most of us are aligned right now… Heck, I think most fans are aligned this way as well.
But thank god for you die hards as well. It makes these kinds of giant conversations possible.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
lol if fans were aligned we would not be up until 12 at night debating the issues
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
McGateway
No disrespect inteded with the crack about your potential as a GM.
And if you are a GM, I’m sure you are doing a great job. Keep up the good work!
zona
your the man that should shut bargs bust people
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You did the research
to prove the point I’ve been trying to make. thank you
Aldridge is playing nowhere near his capacity
I think the comment about Bargnani having a greater upside is an opinion that would only be shared by Raptors fans. In both potential and production LA is the superior player and has proven this over 4 years now. His raw stats are better and his advanced and pace adjusted stats blow Andrea out of the water. Just check it out
I would leave you alone to mourn your season in peace but I really just want the justifications of Bargnani by trying to compare him to LA to stop. Please.
Nicolas Batum AKA Mr. Third Quarter
On Josh Smith "He's strong as a 2nd curtain"
On Lebron "...it's hype, he's not a defender"
On Aaron Brooks "He's tiny, he has a small body but he's super fast and has a real gesture"
On Steve Nash "First we'll have to try and stop this Canadian guard, a young kid with a bright future!"
On Defense "They all piss me off with Dwight Howard...Guys like Bruce Bowen or Ron Artest were legit defensive men of the year. For me that's the profile of a denfender.
On The Playoffs "I don't want Dallas to win because I don't want Rodrigue to be NBA champion, I would be pissed. I don't want him to be NBA champion in his 1st year, this bastard....I put myself in mode asshole!"
Welcome to Crazy town. Too many Raptor fans have lost their collective minds when it comes to AB because he can hit a 3 under 4 times in 10. Good times.
LMAO — Comment of the Year!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
We only say that because we actually pay attention to Raptor games. This is a guy that only JUST started venturing into the post. How does he NOT have more upside? He can score from absolutely anywhere on the court, he’s far quicker than most big men in the league. He gets to the basket with ease, hits the midrange jumper, has 3 point range. If you live in the US, I don’t blame you for being misinformed on the type of game Bargnani has. Aldridge has had the privilege of playing second fiddle to a guard – meaning most of the post touches DO go to him. Bargnani has had another dominant post player on the court with him most of the time. To me, it’s not even close. The only area of the game that Aldridge trumps Bargnani is rebounding. At their respective salaries, Bargnani is the far better bargain.
Please click the link I provided. I implore you.
LA is better in almost every category sans blocks and ts% (due to not taking 3’s I assume). In addition, we play at the slowest pace in the league, whereas you play at the 13th fastest which makes raw stats rather unfair towards LA.
If you watched Blazer games this year you would know what I tough year he has had. Early in the year he was having to share touches in the post with Oden and then once he went out LA was asked to play the interior defensive role, which he has not done in his 4 year career and cannot do effectively. This was a down year for LA and despite this he has a better rebound, assist, steal and turnover rate than Bargnani at very similar usage. He has a 113 Ortg vs. 108 for Bargnani. He has a 107 Drtg vs 113 for Bargnani. He has over twice the winshares. His PER is almost 3 point higher.
Oh and just incase you were wondering, LA has only started venturing into the post recently as well. His points in the paint up to this point came from running the floor and alley-oops more than post moves for most of this year. Post All-Star he started gaining confidence on the block and using an array of moves which gave me renewed faith in his potential. LA has a long way to go but he clearly has the physical tools to get where he needs to. As far as Bargnani, there is no comparison between them and the stats back this up. Quantifying potential is all opinion anyway, so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how it pans out. I’ll just say I’m confident as hell that LA’s deal will be looked at more favourably than Bargnani’s in a couple years.
Final note – I live in New Zealand so the US stereotype doesn’t really work. I have watched around 20 of your games this year so I have some basis for my opinions.
Nicolas Batum AKA Mr. Third Quarter
On Josh Smith "He's strong as a 2nd curtain"
On Lebron "...it's hype, he's not a defender"
On Aaron Brooks "He's tiny, he has a small body but he's super fast and has a real gesture"
On Steve Nash "First we'll have to try and stop this Canadian guard, a young kid with a bright future!"
On Defense "They all piss me off with Dwight Howard...Guys like Bruce Bowen or Ron Artest were legit defensive men of the year. For me that's the profile of a denfender.
On The Playoffs "I don't want Dallas to win because I don't want Rodrigue to be NBA champion, I would be pissed. I don't want him to be NBA champion in his 1st year, this bastard....I put myself in mode asshole!"
The irony here is you are actually proving my point for me. I tried to keep the list down and around AB’s age range (for the most part) you could have included Noah averaging 3.5 mil for the next two years but I left him off because he is still on his rookie contract.
Aldridge – His contract may be more but he does more for his team then Bargnani does (currently).
Camby – even though he is old he still is a better defensive player then Bargnani
Murphy – over paid with a similar skill set to Bargnani
Okafor – vastly over paid.
Chandler – vastly over paid
Curry – HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Dalembert – Better defender and rebounder still overpaid
Okur – considering he is Bargnani’s ceiling at this stage he is cheaper over the length of his contract and has proven himself. Still over paid
Thomas – Did you mean Kurt Thomas who is a 5 and makes 3.8 million or Kenny Thomas who I believe plays the 4 and makes 8.5 and whom everyone agrees never came close to living up to his contract
KMart – he may have suffered a lot of injuries but ask Denver if they would trade him for Bargnani straight up
Nene – A better player.
The whole point is just because everyone else has made mistakes in the past doesn’t mean that BC should continue the trend. The issue is “Would anyone pay Bargnani the money he got last year, in this FA season based on his play so far?” I just do not think anyone would. I could be wrong and someone could have chosen to over pay him but I think with things coming to a head next offseason, he would be lucky to get much of a raise.
Dude, give the kid some credit. Okur is NOT his ceiling. How is that even a fair comparison. Bargnani is twice the scorer Okur is, the difference is that Okur gets open looks ALL DAY from Deron Williams.
I don't think...
anyone can be sure what Bargs ceiling is, in particular if he isn’t working on improving his game. Plus Bargs had lots of open looks this season. Scoring is not his issue.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 21, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok but Bargnani made a ton of shots by creating by himself, Okur cannot do that, and never could. I understand that you’re upset with his contract, but at least respect his game for what it is. And as far as improvement goes, we’ve seen it with his post game. I’m optimistic that the trend will continue.
I don't complain...
about the size of the contract if you read my posts – more the timing and necessity.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 21, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the majority of Bargnani’s baskets are assisted. So he doesn’t actually create the shots himself.
I believe this was pointed out by Chris Black of the Caldeford blog, but I’m having trouble finding the post.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll argue against that. Assist statistic in the NBA are pretty loose. It’s not like Bargs ever goes coast to cost. But he does create a lot using that jab step and such.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 21, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I might be reading this wrong, but it seems to indicate 3/4 of the time Bargnani’s scoring is assisted. And his jump shots are assisted 81% of the time.
That hardly seems like the work of someone who is ‘creating his own shot’.
Okur is assisted on 71% on his buckets.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
On this, I just won’t believe the stats. What we defined as “creating their own shot” and “assisted” are pretty wide apart. Both guys are going to have a high number of assisted shots since neither guy is going to just dribble it around a ton before going for a bucket.
However, I’d say Bargnani can shake his defender and create his own shot a lot more than Okur can because he’s a lot more mobile. He’s shown that in a lot of games that he can put the ball to the basket using dribble penetration or pull up for a jumper. That’s what I’d say is “creating his own shot”
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 21, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’d tend to define ‘creating your own shot’ as something that is unassisted, but whatever…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
How many of those are considered "good" contracts?
Maybe Aldridge, Nene, and Camby?
Basically, you’ve just confirmed that AB could very easily become untradeable (like Curry, Murphy, Kmart, and others on that list) somewhere in the middle of his contract.
Exactly. Signing AB to his contract extension based on half a season was a premature. If AB had stood on his head this year and deserved more money then all the power to him but after 2.5 years of crap and .5 years of good, it probably would have been shrewd to at least wait until he had 1.5 years of good before signing him.
Staying away
I was trying to stay away from the stars (Duncan, Gasol, etc.) as they are better than AB but make much more money. I was simply listing other bigs that make far more than him and provide much less (or in Aldridge’s case, slightly more for an additional $2M+).
I have yet to see a list from any of the posters of other bigs who you think AB compares to that would dictate a contract below $8M.
As noted: Okur for one, but also Bogut/Kaman/Prince/etc.
To me, Okur is a better value, given that he makes less money ($9M/yr on his current contract), and has achieved 4-5 years of stats approximately equal to Bargnani’s “peak” this year of 17ppg/6rpg.
Bogut and Kaman have far exceeded Bargnani’s stats, with almost identical $10M/yr salaries.
Prince gets you similar stats and far better defense from the SF position.
David West gets you better stats @ $9M/yr.
Looking a bit further up, Antawn Jamison gets you better stats for a slightly higher salary.
Looking to younger and/or cheaper options: Andray Blatche @ $3M/yr is a steal, Marc Gasol @ $3.3M/yr is also a steal, and Luis Scola and Carl Landry provide nearly identical stats to AB at only $3M/year…. yes, some of these are rookie contracts, but I don’t see any of these names getting $10M per when their contracts are extended.
Okur
Would not average 17 points on this team. He is as good as he is because he plays with D-Will and Boozer and the like.
You’re comparing apples to oranges when you put in Tayshaun Prince. He doesn’t defend Cs so comparing their defence is pretty unreasonable.
Okur
Okur is at $9.5. Using my calculator, that puts him higher than Bargnani at $8M.
Kaman is $11.3 and Bogut is $11M. Both $3M + more than AB. I fail to see how any of this proves that AB is over paid at $8M.
Prince is a SF. There is a premium to centres and that’s why I’m only looking at big man.
I’ll give you David West.
“West negotiated his new pay scale based on his performance in the 2005-2006 season, and was given a contract starting in 2007-2008 at 10.5 million dollars. The Hornets have been a model of fiscal responsibility,(the exception being Peja) and while West makes a nice first years salary, he has that rarest of contracts – A front-loaded deal that decreases in value as the years pass. Over the life of the new contract, West will be paid 45.4 million dollars(thanks hoopshype), or an average of 9.08 million dollars a year.”
I will point out that his $0.5M less per year on average contract was agreed back in 2006. Salaries this day and age are higher. That plus he’s 30 years old.
Jamison? $13.3M. That’s $5.3M higher. 66% higher in fact.
Blatche I believe is on his rookie contract.
Scola? Landry?
Even if I agreed with your comparisons, there is still nothing you say that supports a contract for AB that is less than $8M.
Instead of basing the analysis of Bargnani’s contract extension on terrible deals handed out in the past during an era with a much higher salary cap, can we acknowledge that if BC had waited until THIS summer to discuss a long-term deal, we’d be talking about a much smaller total contract? The Raptors bid against themselves and it has cost them flexibility going forward.
Nobody in their right mind would be throwing $10 million per year at Bargnani with the likes of Bosh, Boozer, Stoudemire, etc on the market. Let’s not forget LeBron, D Wade, etc.
Bargnani would be above the mid-level exception (obviously), but way less than the $10 mil/year.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems reasonable
However, I still think it was a case of : What if Bargnani broke out last year and pushed his price higher? Obviously it didn’t work out that way but considering a couple of the terrible contracts that this team has, Bargnani’s is less of a problem.
@ Zona
I’ll openly admit, I think Andrea Bargnani is a horrible defensive centre with an awful contract extension. That’s my opinion. And a lot of very smart people agree with me.
Wanting to miss the playoffs is a little odd for a Raptors fan site. Fair enough… But it’s not so odd when you consider the circumstances and the long-term health of the franchise. Would you rather retain your lottery pick and add talent/another bargaining chip to the team? Or get waxed in four games by LeBron and the Cavaliers?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Get waxed
Get the pick to Miami behind us and get the young guns some experience which will come in handy in the years to come.
But we can agree to disagree.
Can't understand this rationale...
Why should we have to settle and put all BC’s mistakes “behind us”? So we should sit silently and allow the future of the organization to be mortgaged without questioning BC’s decision making… This just doesn’t make sense to me…
alot of people would agree bargs is a horrible HELP defender but not a bad defender in general, he is a bad rebounder but not a bad defender.
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 21, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Zona
We know you have been with us a long time so let me address some of your points.
It’s true – at least for me – that I have never been so down on this team. I preferred to cheer for the Mike James led Raps. I really think the band-aid approach to fixing this team is the wrong approach.
Let me address all of the points you believe we made:
- publicly hoped the Raptors miss the playoffs; YES. I WANTED THEM TO MISS THE PLAYOFFS. IF BOSH WALKS AND THIS TEAM ENDS UP UNDER THE CAP BECAUSE HE SIGNS WITH A TEAM (SIGN AND TRADE OR OUTRIGHT) THERE WILL BE LITTLE ROOM FOR BC TO OPERATE. HAVING THE FIRST ROUND PICK IS IMPORTANT. IN MY OPINION MORE IMPORTANT THAN LOSING TO THE CAVS IN 4.
- complained when they did; I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THEM NOT MAKING THE PLAYOFFS.
- Compared BC to Bush (save me the “that’s not what I meant rant”, any comparison to Bush is an insult) YOUR OPINION. CAN’T COUNTER. I THINK OBAMA COULD RUIN THE US, BUT LET’S NOT TALK POLITICS.
- Traded Bosh I DON’T THINK WE HAVE EVER SUGGESTED THE TEAM TRADE BOSH.
- Fired Jay Tiano THE ISSUE I HAVE WITH TRIANO IS THAT COLANGELO NEVER INTERVIEWED ANY ONE ELSE FOR THE POSITION. HE COULD BE A VERY GOOD CHOICE BUT IT WAS A ROUGH YEAR WITH SUBS/STARTERS/CHEMISTRY AND DEFENSE.
- Hoped BC does not come back as he is the worst GM we’ve had and never got even one personnel move right (yes, we forget about the Lamond Murray days and the Yogi Stewart contracts because after all, those were the heydays where we didn’t have the gall to sign the star from the previous year’s NBA finals to our team. I mean what was he thinking?) NOT THE WORST GM EVER, BUT HE HAS MADE SOME QUESTIONABLE MOVES. I PUT THIS FORTH AS MY ARGUMENT – HE WAS WILLING TO SIGN HEDO OUTRIGHT LAST SUMMER WITHOUT KEEPING THE MLE UNTIL A BRANIAC AT MLSE FIGURED OUT SOME CAP MAGIC. THAT MLE RESULTED IN JACK, AMIR AND WEEMS. WHERE WOULD THIS TEAM BE WITHOUT THOSE THREE?
- Sent AB back to Italy; NOT A BIG FAN. HE HAS ADMITTED HE IS LAZY AND I FEEL LIKE HE COULD BE SO MUCH MORE. IT’S REALLY A FRUSTRATION THING.
- Sent DD back to the bench where he can stagnate over the next few years; and NOT FOR YEARS, UNTIL HE DESERVES THE MINUTES. PLAYERS MUST EARN MINUTES, NOT BE HANDED THEM.
- chastised Jay Triano because we saw Weems first. IT WAS PRETTY OBVIOUS. I MEAN WHAT TOOK SO LONG?
In terms of the being close argument I ask, like many others do, close to what? Consistent playoff appearances? Being a contender? Losing Bosh will be an incredible set back.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Howland
Thanks for your thoughts on my points.
I think I was unfairly brushing the HQ team and the posters with the same brush. Some of my comments (trade Bosh) were really with respect to some of the posters and not the HQ team.
I think that as fans we have every right to ask for answers and to critizes BC. But I also think that all considered, he is not as bad as some on this site would make him out to be.
We can agree or disagree on this point, however, I just hope that we can move forward and away from the negative focus on this team.
And yes, I do agree. If Bosh leaves, Miami will have to wait a few years for our pick because he is not replaceable. However, I truely believe he will stay (one fo the reasons for my optimism.) If he ends up leaving, I think that we have an exiciting young team that will be fun to watch develop.
So What's the delio
Is the media including HQ trying to get rid of the best GM the Raptors will ever have…whats the problem, the players and coaches stink up the joint this year, the GM does not play the game every night he gets the players and to be fair we were all optimistic of what a good job the :Lego Master have done" so the team goes out and under achieve and the worst sport media in north is ready to through the GM under the bus and replace him with WHO? BC said it about 10 times last night that things is not as bad as the Toronto no brain media is making it out to be. We miss the playoffs, all the team had to do was beat chicago and they couldn’t, is that BC’s fault NO> I personally feel good that they did not make the playoffs, after seeing the way Cleveland is playing, a draft pic is much better. So all this big break down of what BC says by Franchise is pure BS, the year is over, time to move on. I was happy to hear BC says he has no intention of blowing things up because another year together with most of these players and the team will be better. Turk had a bad year, who didn’t? Turk is a good player but once again the stupid Toronto media wants to run him out of town..get with the program, if you could do better you would not be a sports writer trying to influence the fans with your bullshit. …..leave BC alone, leave Triano alone, Leave Turk alone and leave Bargs and Bosh alone……fools……raps4life
Man I don't think anyone says off with BC's head
I think everyone just wants accountability. It starts at the top, with BC, if those players you mentioned are not performing or the coach is watching his team give up 300 points a game while twiddling his thumbs, someone has to drop the hammer. The players need to drop it on each other for blown assignments, total hammers dropped – 0. The coach needs to drop the hammer on the players for not putting the necessary effort into the whole game (aka both offense AND defense), hammers dropped – 0 (well 1, but I will digress), and when the hammer isn’t getting dropped in the aforementioned places, then the GM comes down from on high and drops the mother effing hammer all over the place, he calls out whoever and all those that need to be called out. Bosh, Hedo, the coach, DeMar, all of them should have been thrashed, and everyone should have known it. That is why the media feels like it has to pick up the slack from these guys. Leave them alone? Who pays their salaries? The same people who are demanding accountability.
But at least when Hedo is caught skipping a game and going out to party, they finally had to do something. The point is if the coach and GM and fellow players had done what they needed to do, most people would understand, they gave it their all and it just didn’t happen. But none of them are giving their all, they are collecting the checks and going through the motions. That is what is breaking the people’s backs, and that is what everyone is clamoring for to change. You make a bad pickup, that is fine, but don’t try telling everyone its chocolate when we all know it is shit.
At no point did triano sit there and twiddle his thumbs. He changed the lineups went to zone, changed trapping, full court press, double teamed, changed defensive matchups. He did everything he could to try and get a few manufactured defensive stops. The fact of the matter is when your initial defense breaks down you are going to get scored on unless you have an eraser like KG or Howard (neither of the two grow on trees). Also just because the players and coaches are not getting called out to the media that we see maybe they are doing it internally like any good organization would. We have no way of seeing what goes on in meetings practices and other. I also believe the BC was quite candid in his private meetings with all the players and coaches.
And for what reason should Demar be thrashed no team should allow the fate of their season to be based upon rookies. There is almost no situation that i can think of that a rookie single handidly carried his team through the playoffs!
There is almost no situation that i can think of that a rookie single handidly carried his team through the playoffs!
Johnson, Magic.
Just sayin…
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Are people not reading?
We are not saying he should be fired (yet), but clearly the shine has worn-off.
He put together a 40 win team with little cap space. Not something to be applauded.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Even I am not advocating Triano should be fired as I think you need rookie coaches coach for most of their contracts to see if they learn from their mistakes. My main issue is with BC who has continuously done things that make me want to pull my hair out. I just think his chances need to be limited going forward as there is a real danger here that he panics us into even more bad contracts to the point that we are the Isiah Thomas era Knicks.
OK
BC is not the best GM in the league but he is not that bad . if bosh leaves we are f*cked for one season at the most after that we will likley draft a good solid player. BC and bosh are right we will just have to wait and see tons of possibilities both negative and positive i would personally like to see joe johnson on the raptors. one main point is jose needs to go i love jose but he sucks on defence like i could probably drive by him maybe the lakers would want him and we could get jordan farmar or shannon brown for him I have some belief in BC but i also think this should be his last role of the dice if something productive isnt done this offseason i think he should leave
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 7:30 PM EDT reply actions
i think the raptors HQ team should be a mix kind of like the american idol judges Franchise can be simon cowell so we need some one to be randy and paula i know paula is gona but i liked that judge combo better then the current one
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 7:34 PM EDT reply actions
Bosh and Calderon to the Bulls in exchange for Rose plus first & third round picks
All I hear is Chicago wants Bosh. Raptors should do a sign and trade and package it together with Calderon in exchange for Rose and Bulls first and third round picks this year or Hinrich.
+1
There was a third round in the eighties I think.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
May I interject...
Can bosh stay healthy for a season anyway? Were would they be if he played 82 games this year? Maybe getting trounced by the cavs, but maybe in a battle at a higher seed… Have to wonder about that knee based on his last few years
Did not miss one game due to a knee injury this year.
Ankle sprain, which happens to everyone that plays basketball (my ancles still crack first thing in the morning to this day) and a freakish elbow to the face…
I've never seen so many fans polarised...
These guys have their minds made up. BC isn’t a good GM, eventhough like Turk or not, he surprised everyone by how he made the deal and freed up millions more in cap dollars. Triano isn’t a good coach, because he made rookie mistakes in his rookie year, and unlike his predecessor was on the same page as his GM and tried to develop his young players. Bargs stinks and can’t play D, eventhough he has improved every year to the point he is a better shot blocker and post defender than Bosh.
Compare Bargnani’s contract with other starting C’s in the league and it ain’t bad at all, he will make 8 million next year. That is less the Kenny Thomas made this year. Sure it goes up by a million each year for the next 5 years, but I don’t think I am going out on a limb to say that in 5 years time Bargnani will be worth 12 million. That is less than what Chandler earned this year. I actually think Bargs might be better if he is matched with a PF that isn’t a jump shooter that is compared to Rupaul.
Unfair shot at Bosh, yes. He is a 20 – 10 guy on a bad team. We will miss him if he leaves. He has always been a pro and done nothing to embarrass himself or the franchise. That said, he is a 20-10 guy on a bad team. He never took us anywhere and does little to improve the otherr players on his team. I am a Bosh fan, but he just might not fit on this team. Bargs looked much better beside Amir at the end of the season, rather than beside Evans/Rasho when Bosh first went down. I admit I could be wrong, but if Bosh walks despite the fact that we are offering him the max, we will have to move on anyways. I, for one, am at least a little curious to see how we try to fill his shoes.
Turk sucks, oh well, most teams in the L have an aweful contract. He was the best talent available that was coming. Matrix made his money and was looking for a ring that he didn’t think he’d get with TO. I think Ariza would have been a better fit than Hedo, but I also don’t think he was going to sign here. So BC was painted into a corner, with cap space and in need of improving the wing and overall talent level. That is how bad contracts happen. That is why we might still be able to trade him for someone else’s mistake. Shit happens.
I think too many people are bitter after a bad year, and all the really annoying nay-sayers are getting in as many – I told you so’s – as they can. Well, we must admit, this years record wasn’t good enough but I still think we will end up with a better record next year. I’ll also go on record to stand by that statement even if we lose Bosh.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Apr 20, 2010 8:27 PM EDT reply actions
Well, we must admit, this years record wasn’t good enough but I still think we will end up with a better record next year. I’ll also go on record to stand by that statement even if we lose Bosh.
That goes up on a plaque in the HQ office (assuming there was an HQ office). LOL
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Admittedly, i deleted that sentence are re-typed it about 5 times before i hit reply. But screw it, if I end up being right you KNOW i will be killing you with the glass half full told you so’s!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Apr 20, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you may well be right if BC can pull of some magic
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
and that is a big IF but it has been done before
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Lego master!
The deciding factor was really that our record this year isn’t great, can’t be too hard to be a .500 club! Plus you and I might be the only ones with any faith left in BC
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Apr 20, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
yea
i have faith but im not totally confident in BC im in the middle im not as negative as some of the people ont his blog but not as positive as some. but i will say this if BC f*cks up one more time he needs to leave i think he deserves a chance and may well silence his critics but as bosh sed only time will tell
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
There should be a case of beer and a HQ t-shirt with your name on it, if that prediction comes to pass!
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 20, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
even for me exclude the beer cus i dont drink beer
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
So BC was painted into a corner, with cap space and in need of improving the wing and overall talent level. That is how bad contracts happen. That is why we might still be able to trade him for someone else’s mistake. Shit happens.
Why spend the money? Would this team have been significantly better or worse with Delfino?
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Instead of Weems and Johnson?
Are you including them in your analysis or just Delfino vs. Hedo? One doesn’t happen without the other.
I’ll take that trade again today.
Actually that isn’t completely true. If BC choose not to sign Turk, he could have still traded Delfino. Not saying he would have just that he could have. A lot of people had their doubts about whether or not Delfino could remain consistent throughout the year. The fact he proved his doubter wrong (including me) is good but BC was right to trade him irregardless of the Turkoglu signing (Delfino is more of a two anyway).
One thing I don't get...
is commenters sugesting that other commenters and the HQ crew are “being too hard on BC”, or “being too negative”. The articles (and most of the comments) I’ve read in this space in the last few days have simply challenged BC’s lack of accountability and/or decision making.
For the accountability piece, I specifically remember BC making two bold statements at the begining of the season: 1) This team should win 50 games, 2) If this does not work out “I wear this”. Well this team did not win 50 games, not many of the “experts” thought they would. So you have to at the very least question his judgement, that is fair critisism. As the team did not win 50 games, then by BC’s OWN STATEMENT, he wears this, he has the ultimate accountability. Just like any other senior leader, in any other organization, as President and GM, the buck stops with him, he has the ULTIMATE accountability.
As for his decision making, even the staunchest BC supporter has to admit that some of BC’s moves have been suspect, and that’s being diplomatic. The premature Bargani signing, the Bargani draft, the Calderone extension (value), the Turkaglu signing, the Fred Jones signing, the Kapono signing, the drafting of the guy from New Zealand (for Christ sakes, I can’t even remember his name), the JO signing, the JO trade (in which he gave up a draft pick), the Bellinelli extension, almost waving Weems, the Triano hire… and the list goes on. All of the above are at least questionable, all of the above have not worked out. So if you are going to defend BC, you have to defend these moves, you cannot simply say, someone is being “negative” or “this is what it is so deal with it”.
that might be because you don't want to get it
Yeah, BC was over optimistic to start the year. He addressed so many of our needs that he thought we would be much improved. In term os accountablilty, I think BC has been very forthcoming. He has made some bold admissions of his and his teams failings. Eventhough he didn’t do it at midcourt, he has done it. It has been stated that a GM’s hands are somewhat tied with how far they can go. Can he relentlessly bash Hedo, JT or even himself openly in the media? No, I think he has made it clear that he isn’t satisfied with how things have worked out. I don’t get why that isn’t enough for the lynchmob that cannot offer any alternatives anyways.
See my previous post about the decision making. You are lumping in some decent decisions with bad decisions and saying they are all bad. Even decisions recognised by BC, that he himself has quickly gone out to correct are lumped in. Bargs is a starting C with potential for 8 mil, that aint bad. Beli has a few tools and potential for 2 -3 mil, not bad. Getting JO for TJ wasn’t a bad deal at all. JO might have been a good decision if BC stuck with him. We would have ended up with better draft picks, Cap space this year and who knows, JO had a pretty solid year this year in Miami. TRading him when he did was a bit of a panick move, as stated by another poster. Jose is a starting PG for 8 mil, not bad and still likely an easily traded asset this summer. Again, I don’t get why everyone hasn’t taken their collective deep breath.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Apr 20, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what's funny Robert Archibald
I remeber having this exact conversation with you last year. I was calling out BC and Bagani and you were defending them. I was the guy making jokes about deep fried mars bars and Iron Bru (as I believe you are from Scottland) LOL! You know what’s sad, we’ll probably be back next year having the same conversation, and you’ll still be defending BC after another failed year as with our current salary commitments things look even bleaker…
I can follow the “BC won’t criticise his own players and downgrade their trade value” argument to a point. However, BC took it to another level when he intimated that there is a “conspiracy” of sorts creating unreasonable “angst” and that the curent situatin “isn’t as bad as the picture’s been painted” and called his perceived detractors “The Frenzied Movement.” To me that speaks of paranoia and exemplafies how defensive he has bcome.
Regarding your other points: Bargs is paid 10 mil not 8 and calling him a “starting C” is completely debateable. I would much prefer paying him 8 mil a year, and that’s closer to the deal he would have got had BC not prematurely extended him last year. Resigning Bellinelli means we can’t give that 2 – 3 mil to Antoin Wright, who as a defensive specialist is more what this team needs than Belli. Whether Jose is a starting PG is also highly debateable and completely disagree that he will be “easily traded asset this summer”. BC will have to work some magic to get another team to take Jose without giving up another asset (i.e. a first round pick). It is for these reasons among others, I’m tired of taking deep breaths and giving BC more chances.
Wish granted
Bargs is in at 8M. Check the stats:
Yeah, to be fair Zona, Hoops Hype had the contract pegged at 10 mil even throughout the term earlier this year. Actually, I think for most of this year, that’s what they had it at.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd still take him at $10M
Also, I thought that all contracts had a minimum raise every year so $10M across the board wouldn’t work.
As would I
You can have a contract reducing over years as well, so I think (and just off the top of my head) it’s possible to have it flat.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 20, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He will be making 8 mil next year but will pull down 13 by the end so if you average it out (50 million divide by 5 years, oh I am so confused, can you give me the answer please).
50 mil over 5 years..
Average 10 mil over the life of the deal. Sure looks stupendous at 8 mil next year (can you smell the sarcasm). However, let’s review when he’s making $13 million at the back end of this deal!
Look, my perspective on this point has always been: "Why the hell was Bargani prematurely extended, what was the rush?" As I’ve said before, if BC was negotiating the deal this summer (The Free Agent BONANZA of the century) BC would have had increased leverage, as the free agent market is uniquely overpopulated this year. This drives up competition for Roster spots, this drives attention away from err.. 8th tier Free Agents like Bargani, and this in turn would drive his value down leading inevitably to a more palatable deal. EVERYONE could have seen this coming last summer. NO ONE on this site has adequately explained to me why this was a good idea… As I’ve said a few times before, if David Lee could only get a 1 year deal worth 7 mil last year, how can you justify a 5 year $50 mil deal for Bargani.
Exactly.
Combine this with the fact that the economy was in the toilet and teams were possibly staring at a $50 million salary cap, the deals given out to Bargnani, Turkoglu and even Belinelli were ridiculous.
And they’re still ridiculous even with the cap figure coming in a bit higher.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
What was Beli's extension?
I do think that a backloaded contract is pretty useful because it becomes a huge asset when it’s about to expire.
They extended Belinelli to the tune of about $2.5 million during the season. Again, another unwarranted extension that didn’t make sense based on both the contribution on the floor and the lower salary cap.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Apr 21, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
ok
ok all those moves are bad but what can we do i dont know of any time machines that exist that can take us back in time to reverse those moves unless you know please tell us. as for the drafting bargnani goes i admit ok but we needed a centre that year and lamarcus alridge would have been a better choice but hes not that much better then bargs and bargnani impressed alot of gms when he was going to get drafted but w/e i admit colangelo made a mistake but he made it already and we just have to look in the future and hope better days ahead no use crying about the past and acting all negative
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
PS
Intersting article on RealGM about how the Raps just don’t play ball ‘the right way’. I do think fans are dying for the traditional bruising center and the uber athletic wing that will play D and slash to the bucket for lotsa points.
Anyone think a sign and trade for Bosh to Houston involving Battier, Hill and Buddinger could work out? Maybe throw in some other players from each side to make salaries work. All are really back ups and If the Rockets can trade 3 non starters for an all star they should. If TO can get Battier, he is the type of leader and defensive player we haven’t seen since Oak. Hill paired with Amir gives us two young rugged rebounders to pair with Bargs and Chase is a good young slasher. Let the rebuilding begin!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Apr 20, 2010 8:40 PM EDT reply actions
Rather give up Taylor and this year's lotto pick than Chase. probably have to throw in Jeffries for salaries.
i will say Morey really, really likes Chase. Yeah it’s Bosh, but nitpicking.
Minnesotan Rockets fan
Is Bargs really overpaid?
He will be paid $8 million next year (averaging $10 million over the life of the contract). Guess what, if you are 7 feet and can walk and chew gum, the going rate is $10 million. Take a look around the league:
Curry $10.5, Dalembert $11.4, Brad Miller $12.3, Shaq $20, Bogut $10, Chandler $11.9, Jermaine O’Neil $23, Howard $15.1, Ilgauskas $10.6, Dampier $10.1, Ming $16.4, Okafor $10.5, Nene $10.5, Jefferson $12, Kaman $10.4, Bynum $12.5.
That’s 16 centres making more than $10 million this year and there are a bunch more in the $8 to $10million range. Quite frankly, despite his faults, I will take Bargs over the majority of them. Regardless, anyone who thinks he could have been signed for $5-6 million is in dreamland.
As I mentioned above...
it’s not really the money. It is more the timing of the contract and the fact that AB has admitted to being lazy. He frustrates the hell out of me because I actually believe he can be great…I just don’t know if he wants to be. That sort of Tim Thomas mentality drives me nuts.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But that can go either way
Yes, renewing someone early is a risk. But, if he continues to develop, becomes a 20 point scorer and even an average rebounder, then he would have cost a heck of a lot more than a contract that starts at $8 million per year. The potential is still there. We need to remember that in Europe, Bargnani played strictly on the perimeter as he did with Smitch. He is just learning what a post move is.
At the time...
I couldn’t see why Colangelo wouldn’t let him play this season and then let the market dictate his worth as an RFA. I have a hard time believing teams would throw a 5 year 50$M deal his way this off-season.
And look the guy can score….no question. He can’t rebound, is LAZY, and is a bad help defender. I hope he gets better and the contract looks like a steal. I just question his commitment.
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 20, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
ok man
he signed him already what can we do now i like bargnani i think we need to hire someone to work his but off this offseason and maybe kick some lazyness out of him. i dont think things are all that gloomy because BC needs to concentrate towards the draft if he can trade bosh and calderon and reggie evans to new jersey for a first round draft pick they can get those players because they have alot of cap space or maybe even trade bosh for a 4th overall pick and draft demarcus cousins i think the raptors need to look to get a higher draft pick which is possible this draft is good and has alot of prospects that could help us out . John wal,even turner,cousins,al farouq aminu just to name a few these players will be very good NBA players and cousins would outright replace bosh because i feel he has the talent to atleast get enough boards as bosh maybe even more
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You might be right but history suggests otherwise
There are a lot of one dimensional centres making big bucks (Dalembert, Chandler, Okafor, Okur). Lazy…how does Eddie Curry strike you. My point is that it just takes one GM to fall in love with Barg’s upside and there are so many teams with cap space. At the end of the day, I’m not saying we got a steal but I really doubt we would have saved much by waiting. With the big unknown of Bosh, it was nice to put this contract to bed.
how much does okafur make because bargnani is atleast as good as okafur no way is he worse
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummm...
Giving examples of other terrible contracts does very little for your argument if you are trying to sway people that the Bargs deal isn’t that bad. Suggesting BC did the right thing in overpayng Bargani simply because other GMs have made mistakes and overpaid others does little to inspire confidence.
I think it goes to show you that someone would’ve thrown a pretty nice figure at him, be it 8 mil – 9 mil -10 mil. Instead of complaining about Bargnani’s contract, which is at least ACCEPTABLE, focus your energy on the atrocities that are Hedo’s and Jose’s contracts.
ok thank you
Hedos contract sucks but what can you do about it colangelo basically admited that he cant do anything about it lets just hope hedo shows up next season and does something productive
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
so if you think that way then every gm in the league made a bad decision every GM in the league has a bad contract at C look at zona’s post up there he explains what the top center’s in the league make like bargnani is making what he should be making like forget he was a number 1 draft pick i think people just can not forget that i admit it was a slight mistake taking him in the draft at number 1 but forget that that is over with look at the present and his skill level and i think bargs deserves his contract
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I am really not sure what your point here is. If we forget that he is signed to a bad contract and forget that he was a number one pick, so what is your point here? Is your point that BC should now go out and sign Kwame Brown to a contract of any size and you would be okay with that? I know it is exaggeration but holding BC accountable for his past mistakes will hopefully make him think twice about making the same mistakes in the future.
This is the point that people are missing that is driving me so nuts. It’s not that the contract might end up being a bargain its the fact BC was bidding against himself when he resigned him. If he had waited he could have really put the Raptors in a better position. Most of the time RFAs sign for a single year especially one like AB who has been wildly inconsistent. After next season is the expected Lockout and the Raptors could have had a more favourable CBA to work with. Instead he is signed regardless and more than likely his contract will be grandfathered in meaning even if his game regresses they will be on the hook for the whole amount.
there are tons of ways that colangelo can make this team better or atleast not a 20 win team so quite being negative everybody and look at the positives
by raptors_run_the_show on Apr 20, 2010 10:54 PM EDT reply actions
Faith people!
i get it, we didnt make the playoffs. but is that really BC’s fault. we were all so excited before the beginnning of the season, and before the all-star break when we were winning. after injuries hit our team lost control and we just started losing our confidence to win. is that really BC’s fault? blame the damn players. dont blame BC. he would have fixed it if it werent for that damn trade deadline. now that we are able to trade again, BC can fix it.
overall our team is good, just a few flaws (hedo!). i wasnt expecting championship so theres obviously some fixing to do. BUT THE BLAME SHOULDN"T BE ON BC. players should be blamed, triano should be blamed. but after the deadline when the raps starting sinking it, BC couldnt have done anything. so shut the hell up. and expect him to make changes now. i dont know why everyone keeps blaming the GM. sure the team failed its goal, but everyone’s expectations and hopes were all the same before the trade deadling, so just give up. cause he couldnt do anything about it.
Why did the Players sign themselves and trade themselves and draft themselves to the Raptors? Did the players refuse to look at the holes on the team and address those needs? The players definitely have to accept a lot of the blame but BC brought those players here. They didn’t just fall onto our roster.
Pre-season some of us were predicting the team would finish at about the .500 mark which is about where they ended up so I am not actually angry that they didn’t make the playoffs. What angers me is that team is showing signs of regression even though they won more games then last year. At least after last season there were signs that if they brought in the right people this team could be going in the right direction. Now it looks like this team has peaked with very little room to improve.
That's what concerns me too
Little wiggle room, a lot of (questionable) assets tied into many years with little proof that they’ll work..
Scary.
Kinnon "Vicious D" Yee
Author - RaptorsHQ.com Twitter @RapHQVicious
by Raptors HQ - Vicious D on Apr 21, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
HOLY SCHNIKIES!
If Bryan Colangelo doesn’t get this thing fixed he’ll be living in a van down by the river!
Joking…
…just wanted to say that there has been some amazing discussion on the site today – so good that I’m almost tempted not to put up Part II, but simply grab key comments and discuss them instead since there were so many great points on all sides.
Again…reason we’ve always done the site as we’ve got the best readers in the world.
See you all in the morning…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
Thanks for the forum
There may be widely varying points of view but there is no lack of passion for this team.
Greatest...
SNL skit EVER
Dave "Howland" Randell
Co-Creator of RaptorsHQ.com
by RaptorsHQ - Howland on Apr 21, 2010 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions
admit it
you all were excited with this team. you all expected to make the playoffs. if you think BC failed cause he thought this team would be in the playoffs, then you all failed too. admit it!
im sick of the people blaming the GM. if you expected this team to not make the playoffs from the beginning of the season, then why didnt you say something when our team was playing above .500 ball. yall were so hyped up with hope, and when the players started to get injured and losses started to add up maybe because their confidence got low, you all put the man in charge of failing. why not blame the damn employees (players)?
The reason I didn’t say anything (although I believe Howland or Franchise pointed out some reasons for concerns during the good months) is because I know how pointless it is to tell fans things are not alright in Raptor land when the team is winning. I was actually impressed by how they were playing but I did have reservations about whether they could maintain it. Their complete collapse caught me by surprise as I expected them to play at about a .500 level after the all-star break and instead they sucked massively. I really believe that a number of people in here are upset precisely because everything did look good but also saw some of the flaws not get addressed at the trade deadline.
Two points on this tea time: 1) Most of us and generally every expert in the Media did not pick the Raptors to win 50 games BRIAN COLANGEO did (despite his equivocations and back peddling at the presser). 2) I, nor you, or anyone else who writes for or comments on this site makes $3 mil a year for their analysis, opinion and decision making. Brian Colangelo does however! So he deserves applause when his team does well and criticism when it regresses (despite a maxed out roster based on salary with little to no assets that are tradable). So if you want to blame the players and or coaching you have to blamed BC because he has the overall Accountability. THAT IS WHAT HE IS PAID FOR.
One more point. Last season I believe I said that I was okay with BC giving a 1st round pick away in order to unload Oneal. I still would be except things didn’t work out the way I thought they would.
I thought the Raptors would either wait a year or use their cap space to sign a few players who could help (I liked the idea of them waiting a year to use their cap space or at least some of their cap space).
I thought they would be bad for a few years, accumulate some players via the draft then be a position where losing their pick wouldn’t hurt so much.
I though BC would move Bosh rather then try and hit a homerun on an 0-2 count by swinging at a knucklehead, I mean ball.
I thought BC would take a player ready to play in the NBA now and when he took DD instead I thought that was a sure signal that he was trading Bosh as only an idiot would take a player who is projected to need a few years to develop at a time he was trying to convince his franchise player to stay.
I thought Bargnani would improve his rebounding by about a board more then he actually did. 6.2 boards, are you kidding me?
I could probably go on but I will leave it at that.
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