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Tip-In: "Out-Everything'ed" - Raptors Get Run of Gym by Knicks in Loss

 


Coming off the high of an impressive Friday night win over Oklahoma City, the Toronto Raptors took the New York Knicks for granted and as a result, got run out of the gym...

Star-divide

Maybe yesterday's result should have been expected.

After all, while the Toronto Raptors were coming off a very nice win Friday night, defeating the mighty OKC Thunder, this is still a young and inconsistent team we're talking about, and it showed in yesterday afternoon's 116 to 99 thrashing at the hands of the New York Knicks.

The Knicks were simply the better team on the afternoon, running a vintage Mike D'Antoni offense that was predicated on Toronto stopping Amar'e Stoudemire, and when this DID happen, a rarity on the afternoon, the Knicks wings were licking their chops around the perimeter, ready to let fly.

Let fly they did, to the tune of 12 three-pointers made, wreaking havoc on the Raps and never really allowing Toronto to get within striking distance.

Oh the Raptors did close the lead, getting within 7 at one point, but it never really seemed like they were a threat to take the lead.

Not when the club missed 10 of 11 shots during one stretch, or hit only 11 of 22 free throws.  It's pretty hard to win games with numbers like that.

In addition, to me this was another game of "talent wins," especially when the less-talented team isn't playing as a cohesive unit to start.  When the Knicks needed to close things out, their true stud, Amar'e Stoudemire played the role of Mariano Rivera, scoring 15 points in the fourth quarter.  Combining that with Shawne Williams 14, and these two Knicks outscored the Raptors themselves in the game's final Q.

Again...pretty hard to win with stats like that.

Post-game, Jay Triano had this to say about his team's overall performance:

"To beat a team like this, we need to have our guys playing a lot better than they did today. You can go through the list and see who didn't play well for us. When your list is that long you're not going to beat the better teams, and this is one of the best teams in the NBA right now."    

If you watched the game, you're probably finding yourself nodding in agreement for two reasons.

For one, with the exception of Amir Johnson and Jerryd Bayless, who we'll discuss in a minute, this was pretty much a terrible game across the roster.

Toronto's wings were horrid as DeMar DeRozan was fairly invisible and Sonny Weems looked to be playing for a contract, not a win, Jose Calderon was a team-high -25 on the afternoon and failed to keep Knicks' point guard Raymond Felton in check to any degree, Andrea Bargnani regressed to his "satisfied to take jump shots" ways, even though the match-ups dictated a huge advantage for him down low on the afternoon, and 3 bench points from anyone not named Jerryd Bayless ain't getting many W's.

Secondly, the Knicks are certainly a much-improved team from even a month ago.  The team looked lost on offence and still non-existent defensively when the clubs first met on opening night.  Now, D'Antoni has done an incredible job of getting the right mix of players into the game; the "right" players meaning those that fit with what he's trying to achieve on the court.  There's a reason guys like Bill Walker and Anthony Randolph aren't getting any PT, and Timofey Mozgov (who Blake Griffin-ized DeMar DeRozan on a dunk yesterday) have been taken out of the starting unit.  This team wants to force you to deal with Amar'e, and if you aren't willing to take your chances with him one-on-one, then you're going to pay by leaving guys like Felton, Landry Fields, Williams, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari and Toney Douglas open.

Hell, even Andy Rautins fits this mould and he played nary a minute yesterday.

It's a lesson at some point Jay Triano needs to learn.

Yesterday he was thoroughly out-coached from the jump as the Knicks rushed out to a 21 to 10 lead, a lead the Dinos never recovered from.

With Wilson Chandler playing the 4, the Knicks could use his athleticism, length and strength to keep Bargs in check, and it would force bigs like Andrea or Amir to constantly be running out to the perimeter on D.

We saw this late in the game too as Shawne Williams bagged 3 after uncontested 3 from the Mo Pete corner, Toronto's big men helplessly plodding towards them like a Diplodocus chasing a true Raptor.

Why not fight fire with fire Jay?

Yesterday was a perfect case of "when Andrea's offence isn't going, he's shutting it down," so why not put Julian Wright at the 4, a similar long-and-athletic type, who you can be sure would have busted his ass to get out on Chandler.  Wright was drafted in the same year as Chandler, was the higher rated prospect, and you can be sure would have relished a chance to go Kansas vs. DePaul against his former sparring partner.

The same could be said for Sonny Weems at the 3.

Weems had a very good overall game on Friday night, but has been pretty weak overall the last few contests, forcing shots, making poor decisions with the ball, and generally looking much more "D League" than Young Gun.

And let's not even talk about Linas Kleiza suffice to say that he's 8 of 21 over the past four games, and a human turnover.  Kleiza's not a bad player per se, but he's just not a great fit for this fast-break group on most nights.  Yet Triano continues to give him minutes that frankly could be better put to use elsewhere.  And to compound things, even yesterday when Kleiza should have had the advantage in the low-post, he was content to shoot jump shots.

However for all the frustrating things yesterday, there were two very big positives to take into tonight's game versus the Indiana Pacers; the play of Amir Johnson and Jerryd Bayless.  Amir did struggle defending Amar'e, but had a break-out game finishing with 22 points and 16 rebounds.  It's pretty hard to overstate how impressive his play was. Amir was EVERYWHERE, had 8 offensive rebounds, blocked two shots, grabbed 3 steals, and hit 10 of his 14 shots.  That folks is pretty hard to top.  Yes, this only confirms our thoughts that he should have been starting besides Bargs since day one, but let's just hope this means he's there to stay, regardless of what happens with Evans upon his return.

And what can you say about Mr. Bayless?

The man who supposedly couldn't shoot drained five 3's yesterday, hit on 8 of his 16 shots, and still doled out 6 assists while pulling down 7 rebounds.  Many times he, the smallest guy on the court, was grabbing rebounds from 2 or 3 Knicks, and was the only reason the Raps kept this match reasonably close for the bulk of the game.

In a season like this, you take those little pluses and hope to build on them for the next game...

...which happens to be tonight against the Indiana Pacers.

Here are our 3 keys:

1)  More Bargs.  I've been trying to climb back on the Andrea bandwagon but yesterday was admittedly tough to watch.  Nary a trip to the foul line and jump shot after jump shot when even showed that he could score in close when he posted up.  But of his team-high 19 shots, only about 3 of those came on post-ups, something he can't do tonight against the Pacers.  Roy Hibbert has been a legit candidate for Most Improved Player and is one of the league's best shot-blockers.  Bargs is going to have to go right at him and another athletic front-court player, Josh McRoberts if the J isn't going.  As one of our commenters noted, this team goes as does Andrea of late, so he needs to set the tone early and help carry this team on his back.

2)  Earth to the Wings.  I'm not going to pull any punches here but outside of the OKC and Washington wins, I haven't been terribly impressed with Mr. DeRozan and Mr. Weems.  Lately Sonny looks like he's more interested in his salary next year than anything else and DeMar is just kinda "there."

Not good enough, especially when Danny Granger awaits tonight.  These two have to at least equal his offensive output if they're not able to keep him in check.  The Pacers play a similar "inside-out" style as the Knicks too, surrounding their perimeter with gunners like Mike Dunleavy Jr. and Brandon Rush so DD and SW need to get their heads in the game from the get-go.

3)  Better Game Plan.  This leads to my final key.  I'm not even going to get into any Pacers stats for this "3 in the key" because frankly, the Raptors shot themselves in the foot plenty yesterday with errors they made and that can't happen again tonight.  

This starts with Jay Triano though.  He can't be scared to pull starters, any starter, if things aren't working.

Jose can't stay in front of Collison?  Bring in Bayless early.

Amir getting pushed around by Hibbert?  Try Joey Dorsey.

Perimeter defence looking like the Washington Generals?  Get guys like Wright in.

This season is all about getting the most out of the talent that's on the roster and Triano needs to stop worrying about salaries and names on jerseys.  As D Stance noted yesterday, the Knicks didn't roll out Andy Rautins, even in garbage time, just because he's a Canadian kid.  They want to win games and Rautins isn't contributing enough yet.

I'm hoping to see Jay take a page from this playbook and get the club back in the win column tonight, and a good start thanks to a better overall game plan would go a long ways towards ensuring this occurs.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa...
Yes, this only confirms our thoughts that he should have been starting besides Bargs since day one, but let’s just hope this means he’s there to stay, regardless of what happens with Evans upon his return.

-beside Bargs or besides bargs? Big difference guys

by axl t on Dec 6, 2010 10:06 AM EST reply actions  

“Beside” Bargs…sorry…although as most know, I’m still in favour of using Andrea as a 6th man…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

So is bringing OJ Mayo off the bench then right?

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Have you even seen OJ's numbers this year?

He’s been stinking up the joint. Completely different situations Franchise, come on.

by HDave on Dec 6, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

ya for real

totally different situtions plus the memphis needs offence to come off the bench so moving oj to the bench makes sense, moving andrea ouldnt make sense at all

by sherwin316 on Dec 6, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure how the situations are different…Memphis has decided to play a better defensive option in Henry at the 2, even though no one would say that Mayo isn’t the more talented guy.

What about Jeff Green in OKC?

Same thing – the team has decided to sacrifice O for D by having Thabo and Ibaka start.

I’m not saying Bargs as a 6th man is the cure-all, it might even be a flop! But I’m confused why you wouldn’t entertain it considering his skill set, which is very OJ Mayo-ish.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

cause in memphis you got enough offence of punch where you have guys like gay who can go off for 40 and a 20-10 guy in zach so it makes sense to balance it out with the better defender…in okc you have durant and lord have mercy westbrook in the starting line-up who both can also go for 40 each..the different with the raps who in the starting line up do you see can go off like that other than bargs??? you need offence as well to at least start off games a lil respectable (even tho they have struggled of late) the other 2 teams have players who can go off in the lineup we..the raps dont.

by sherwin316 on Dec 6, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

They’ve actually struggled all season out of the gate. If you look at first quarters since the beginning of the year, you’ll see the Raptors getting outscored in an overwhelming majority of the games. I don’t see how anyone in the Raptors’ starting lineup is considered untouchable. Remember: the game is played at both ends of the floor.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, Sure

Those teams also have Rudy Gay and Durant/Westbrook to carry the load on offence; there is no one like that in the starting lineup when you take Bargnani out. Also, OJ Mayo has been terrible this season, while Bargnani is having a career year, and this is really his first bad game in a while.

by HDave on Dec 6, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not foolish enough to believe the Raptors are a championship contender. I mean, they might not even be good enough to make the playoffs in a very weak Eastern Conference. But I remain convinced that there is enough talent on this roster to win ball games IF the rotations made more sense. There guys doing a decent job rebounding the ball and getting out on the break.

Jay Triano has a pretty unique coaching opportunity, and not because he’s the Canadian guy coaching the Canadian team. What he has is an NBA roster devoid of a true superstar. So Triano should be able to shake up his starting lineup to avoid the slow starts that have plagued the team all year. And he should be able to pull guys quickly without — as Franchise mentioned — worrying about salaries or the names on jerseys.

There is not one guy on this squad who is a clear-cut NBA starter like a LeBron James or a Dwight Howard or a Pau Gasol. Play the guys who deserve to play based on what’s actually happening on the court. And don’t try to plug an underperforming guy like Kleiza into a game when you’ve cut a lead to single digits just because it’s Lithuanian Night at the ACC. Just brutal.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

+1

I’m hoping that’s not why he put klieza in the game..I can see maybe cause he has the size and 3 point shooting ability to be out there but he just didn’t get it done. At that point put in Wright who has the size and quickness to guard Chandler cause this is 2 games now Chandler playing the 4 ate up the raps…doesn’t make sense they play againg Wednesday I think so jay has to start doing a better job at who to put in the game.

by sherwin316 on Dec 6, 2010 10:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Inconsistency

Unfortunately, Triano has to suffer with the players’ inconsistency even more than we do as fans. For example, when Triano put Kleiza in he may have had a perfectly good reason, like needing more 3-pt shooting on the floor. That would be a defensible reason for using Kleiza rather than Wright(who can’t shoot 3’s, AFAIK). However, when Kleiza gets out there he gets blown by on defense and misses a few open looks. D’Oh!!! The thing is Triano can’t have known in advance that was going to happen because in other games Kleiza has hit shots and defended adequately. Unfortunately for him, Triano is gambling whenever he makes a sub because other than a guy like Evans he just can’t know what he is going to get when he sends a guy into the game.

I don’t disagree that Triano sometimes makes counter-intuitive substitutions or chooses not to make a change that seems to make sense(for some weeks now, I’ve been hoping he would use Wright for his defense more often). I suppose you could argue that Triano has been inconsistent in his performance, just like some of the players.

Overall, I think Triano is doing a better job this year than he did last year. As DS mentioned he has a great opportunity with the current players to establish a merit-based culture with the Raptors and I certainly hope he manages to do that. Some nights it seems like he is on the right track and others not so much. Inconsistency, the Raptors theme of the season….

by DW19 on Dec 6, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

The easiest thing to do in baseball

is criticize the manager’s use of the bullpen. After every late inning loss, he either (a) took the starter out too soon, (b) left the starter in too long, or © put the wrong guy in. Whatever the manager does, if he loses, fans jump on him for making the wrong decision.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Dec 6, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of the criticism levelled at Triano — especially in the game chats — happens before or during certain portions of the game. There’s not a lot of armchair coaching going on. Some of the questionable decisions are telegraphed, which is what makes them so frustrating. It’s like you’re constantly bracing yourself for the coaching fail.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

To a certain degree your comment about telegraphed decisions highlights my point about inconsistency. Triano can do the exact same thing game after game and yet the results vary wildly according to the inconsistent play of his players.

Now, clearly Triano and his staff should be working hard in practice to iron out the inconsistencies, but that is something that is going to take time.

by DW19 on Dec 6, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree with D Stance – it’s when you can see the moves coming it’s a kick in the teeth.

That being said, I think the overriding theme that needs to be noted is that a lack of talent still trumps any coaching flaws. Kobe Bryant and Ron Artest don’t consistently let teams crush them in the first quarter.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

rotations - amir

for some reason in yesterdays game, triano subbed bargnani in for amir. At this time amir was just on fire and Bargnani was playing with his tampon in…. WTF is Trianos problem?!

by untouchable_21 on Dec 6, 2010 11:00 AM EST reply actions  

This was right near the end of the 3rd quarter right? I get giving him a quick blow, but then he left Amir for ages, and compounded things by bringing in Kleiza too…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

ya dude, it was around the 3rd Q end. I thought it is a basic coaching tactic to always “ride the hot hand”…. or maybe im just thinking of the repetitive leo rautins commentating

by untouchable_21 on Dec 6, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Ride the hot hand

That’s a basic basketball tactic period. Whether you’re coaching or playing or whatever. It goes all the way down to the streetball level. Common sense.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Arm chair coaches

If you were coaching what would you do when the whole team goes into their “jumpshots only” mode". What would you say in the time outs and at half?

by raptball on Dec 6, 2010 11:20 AM EST reply actions  

You pull the jump shooters and put in folks who will attack the basket.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

True, but for example, when you put in Wright he tends to take 10 ft jumpers(although I advocate for more playing time for him). And when it’s a guy like Kleiza, he may take jumpers or he might pound the ball in the post. You just don’t know. Same with DD and Weems. Is this a night when they are attacking the hoop or is this a night when Weems is chucking and DD is deferring?

by DW19 on Dec 6, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

You never know what you are going to get with a young team

It’s an art to coach young players. You just gotta keep playing them until they establish an identity for themselves. Remember how up and down T-Mac was when he played with us.

by raptor rabid on Dec 6, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Great point about T Mac.

And yeah, not saying it’s an automatic solution, but some times you’ve gotta try different pieces when the usual ones aren’t working. No reason for Weems to have played so many minutes last night when he wasn’t producing.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Box score notes

Just a few things that happen to stand out from yesterday’s game:

- EDavis with good statistical outing 8 rebs in 17 mins, but 2-6 FTs yuck

- Gallinari only 7 shots in 40 minutes.

- Would have like more than 2 mins for Dorsey & Wright

by DW19 on Dec 6, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions  

I didn’t even get into Davis but he’s been very impressive for someone who a) is a rookie and b) missed training camp and a big chunk of his sophomore year in college. He needs more PT.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

its funn your saying that now francise

when you’ve been saying since summer league you were never sold on davis and thought alabi would be the better player even thought davis wasone of the best rookies during sumer league lol im sure he’ll get playing time but we cant expect him to play 25 minutes just yet, he still has to work himself back into nba playing shape

by sherwin316 on Dec 6, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right Sherwin, I didn’t expect much from Davis at all and happy to be wrong. He just seems to have a nose for the ball and has an impact every time he steps on the court.

And yeah, 25 minutes a night isn’t feasible at this point ha ha, but getting him up to 15 or 17 would be nice.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

If he continues to play well and they do not have him up to close to 25 minutes a game soon, it will be a crying shame. He did just get back so let’s see how things play out.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 6, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Did anyone else notice?

Davis airballed to left one free throw and barely scraped the left rim on another one…

by Mikthaniel on Dec 6, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah…that was a “cricket cricket” moment ha ha.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Smalls deserve all the blame.

I have to disagree with the OP. It is the PG’s responsibility to run the offense, obviously they chose not to last night. Compound this with the absolute putrid play from every wing and this is what you get. Andrea posted up multiple times and never received the ball, it is strictly up to the PG and wings to make this happen.

The offense should have been moved through Andrea on almost every possession as it was the best way to attack the knicks. We saw it within the first 5 min. of the game. Two passes by Andrea to hit the wing (weems) worked to perfection, well except for the fact Weems bricked a dunk and shot an airball from 2 feet away.

I’m also done with DD, he should have his ass benched from the starting lineup. His defense in the first quarter was an embarrassment and allowed the Knicks to hit so many open threes. Sit the kid down and make him earn his starting position.

by even flow on Dec 6, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions  

Interesting

I think Jose has to shoot more to take some of the pressure off the wings.

It’s hard to move the offence through Bargnani when he is having an off-game shooting wise. He’s too worried about establishing his shot. I didn’t see him post that much but I could definitely be wrong.

I wonder if DD would get more confidence coming off the bench and playing against lesser players. I don’t think it should affect Barbosa too much but you never know.

by raptor rabid on Dec 6, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

When I say move the offense through Andrea it’s not with the intention of having him shoot more. When he gets the ball in the post it sets the oppositions defense and allows the team to identify mismatches they can exploit. I look at it as more of Andrea being the distributor of the ball in games like the one yesterday. As a side affect, it also means our wings don’t get the ball in their hands leading to horrible shots and stupid turnovers.

The reason we lost last night was because of the play of our smalls and Triano. Complaining about any of our bigs is strawman argument.

by even flow on Dec 6, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s also hard to move the offense through Bargnani is he is a reluctant passer that tends to lock into blackhole mode when he gets the ball.

by MAS11 on Dec 6, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think he is a reluctant passer at all and in fact think he would excel if it was up to him to distribute to his teammates. Like it or not he is the teams best player and the ball needs to go through him.

by even flow on Dec 6, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think the offence should move through Bargnani at all. He hasn’t shown an ability to pass the ball (unless you think 1 assist per game is the sign of a great distributor with superior court vision). Bargs needs to move without the ball, find his spot and get his feet set. If they take away his shot or if the openings present themselves, attack the basket.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s what was so great about the Friday game – the ball moved. And a lot of that was Andrea moving to open spots, nothing forced. It’s games like yesterday’s when I think he feels he needs to do too much, and then it’s “one and done.”

And I agree that if Jose and the wings had done a better job on O, then that burden probably doesn’t fall on AB to the same degree.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, of course, lets not have the best player on team involved in the offense. Andrea is a skilled passer and fundamentally really good with his passes. In fact I would go so far as to say he is the best at getting the ball into the post and perhaps that’s were the issue lies, our wings are horrible at making that pass to the post. Bayless can make that pass into the post but as far as Weems, DD, Jose and Kleiza they suck at it.

Set Andra up in the post, give him the ball and than run screens to get wings going to the basket or hit AJ for a layup or Jose for a 3 pointer.

by even flow on Dec 6, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Whether you run the offence through Bargnani or not, it has nothing to do with shot attempts. The majority of his shots are still assisted by someone else (although he has done a better job creating his own offence this season). So he can still put up an average of 17 shots a game or whatever they’ve been giving him by simply having guys pass him the ball.

This idea of “running your offence through a big man” works better with someone like Kevin Garnett in his prime, where he was averaging 5-6 assists per game. Or even Shaq averaging over 3-4 assists per game despite battling Kobe for the ball.

Bargnani averages 1.4 assists per game. When he gets the ball and decides he’s going to shoot, he tends to put his head down and ignore the rest of the court. Witness his drive yesterday where he picked up an offensive foul instead of simply dropping the ball off to a wide open Ed Davis for an easy dunk.

Yes, I would love to see Bargnani post up more and score at will like he did at the end of the Knicks game. I think it’s a much more efficient way for him to get points than mindlessly chucking from beyond the 3-point line. But the bottom line is, when the ball goes into the post to Bargs, it’s not magically coming back out to a wide-open shooter. He’s just not making that pass and the Raptors as a team are just not hitting that shot anyway.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Even Flow

Yesterday Andrea DID get the ball in the post. But the majority of the time he turned, faced up, and then made his move.

He might be a “skilled passer.” But rarely do you see him actually pass the ball resulting in scoring plays. Neither the stats nor the eye test back it up. He’s averaged less than 2 assists a game, year after year, when he has the highest or near highest usage rate on the team is someone who facilitates motion on offence.

It’s like saying DeRozan’s an excellent 3-point shooter!

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

He needs to work on making better passes. Hopefully, he improves a bit.

I have been reading a lot about how Calderon does not get a lot of assists from Bargnani. Does any point guard? He typically needs to make a move to score after the catch. What is the rule for assists? How much ball movement is he allowed to make for it still to count as an assist?

These are not Bargs insults by the way. I just do not see him as a good catch and shoot guy, or an alleyoop/dunk target.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 6, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s nothing like saying DD is a excellent 3-point shooter because DD’s shooting fundamentals are flawed where as Andrea’s passing is fundamentally sound.

In this case it is upon the coach to explain what he wants out of his players. If Jay were to tell Andrea to be a distributor in the post he would be.

In regards to last night it did not look like that was the case. When Andrea received the ball in the post, aside from the first couple plays in the 1st quarter his teammates did nothing but stand around. I’m assuming the called play was for Andrea to ISO, I’m not sure though because 3/4 of time it looked like they were just freelancing.

When your wing play sucks as much as yesterday I don’t see the harm in running the entire offense through Andrea in the post, in fact it makes sense.

by even flow on Dec 6, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

In this case it is upon the coach to explain what he wants out of his players. If Jay were to tell Andrea to be a distributor in the post he would be.

So the only thing holding Bargnani back from averaging 4-6 assists per game is Jay Triano? Prior to that it was Sam Mitchell preventing him from passing, I guess. I just don’t see that, and I haven’t seen a hint of that passing ability in his five seasons in the league.

What I think Bargnani can do more of is score in the post when his shot isn’t dropping. That’s something I’ve seen him do on the court.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Triano has actually gone on record in scrums/pre/post-game pressers that Bargnani needs to be better at moving the ball and passing. So no, it is not triano holdin him back.

Other notable Bargnani comments from Triano this season:
- he came to camp out of shape and did not play with any aggression/commitment in preseason

- When asked if Bargnani’s help defense improved over the summer (which was supposed to be his major focus) Triano responded with a simple, yet emphatic “No!”

Just for the record…

by MAS11 on Dec 6, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

It should be said...

that if everybody listened to the letter of the law like Reggie did when he was told to get a rebound and get the hell out of the paint and hand deliver the ball to the point guard, then you could use the coaching as a scapegoat for bad decision making or poor performance…

The fact is though that DESPITE what coaches tell the players to do, and maybe they actually do demonstrate when running half speed drills in practice, once you are in a full speed situation, instincts take over…

How many times have you seen a UFC fighter go in with a sound gameplan, but as soon as they get hit once, they throw it all out the window, even with a coach ten feet away SCREAMING to get back to the gameplan…

At the end of the day the coach is on the sideline and the player is on the court… Bargnani is SLOWLY becoming a better rebounder, due to coaching and practice changing his instincts… but you can’t just dust a player’s jersey with magical instinct powder and create a new facet to his game…

The coach may believe, based on what he sees from a player in practice, that he is finally getting what he’s being taught and therefore expect to see it in a game situation… it isn’t the coaches fault if the player reverts to instinct during crunch time though…

…end of rant

by Mikthaniel on Dec 6, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Excellent points. I enjoyed the rant.

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

When he is on the court, Bargs should touch the ball almost every time they do not get something going out of transition. He is currently their most dangerous offensive weapon.

If he starts taking questionable shots, yank him. That is how you coach him. A quick sit to remind him that he is not doing what is expected. Then you keep trying to get him back out there, to do waht is needed (assuming that the other guys are not on a major run like they were yesterday). Every coach should ride what is really hot, unless people are looking gassed. That is how I coach middle school. It’s not rocket science.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 6, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

wings

Bottom line: are wings are all pathetic. Weems, DeRozan and Kleiza (a signing I liked) are well-below average at the most skilled position in the NBA. There are literally hundreds of guys in the US right now who could play as well as these bums.

We NEED NEED NEED to use that TPE on a wing—even if it is for a slightly overpriced, older guy, this ‘young guns’ stuff is idiotic. I would take Marion back . . . but he’s way to valuable on a real team like Dallas.

Too much high and low around the HQ lately—a win and we’re a contender, a loss and were looking for small victories in a “season like this.” We’re a 20-30 win team just like we always were, one big game or one stupid loss doesn’t change that.

L-O-T-T-E-R-Y

by Original Aaron on Dec 6, 2010 12:12 PM EST reply actions  

Great comment.

I was just talking to D Stance this morning about this – the marketing of DeMar and Sonny has distorted the fact that these two are mediocre players at best right now. Sure, they both have upside, but right now, is DeMar REALLY any better than a Nick Young (who in fact has a much higher PER.) Or is Sonny better than a Marquis Daniels-type?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=sg&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics%3fposition%3dsg

There are still major talent questions on this roster top to bottom.

My one issue Aaron is that there are so many bad teams in the East, I’m scared to death that Toronto could make that 8th playoff spot, or come close, simply because they’re the lessor of various leasts, so to speak…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

In the words of Nick Diaz, Don't be scared, homie

Sorry for the MMA reference, but making the playoffs is never a bad thing, I dont see a huge difference between the 8th pick and say the 15th.

by HDave on Dec 6, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially in this draft

Apart from Irving I’m not sold on anyone else to be able to take the pressure and be an impact player.

by raptor rabid on Dec 6, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

different food for toughts

not that I fundamentally disagree with anything has been said up to now, but I cannot avoid noticing that EVERY Sunday 1pm game has been a lemon this season. This team is the same team who has plaid two days against OKC and the Knicks are no better than OKC, What has changed is the team these foes were up against. Could it be they (Raps) have to do something different approaching the Sunday game? (either preparation or….disciplinary?)

by renato on Dec 6, 2010 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

Typically Sunday Matinees have been good for the Raptors so the only thing i can think of is that the youngins are out in the T dot til late Saturday night which is usually a problem our opponents have.

by McGateway on Dec 6, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame White Vegas.

The interesting thing is Toronto is only 2 and 3 on Sunday’s, and that’s counting pre-season. Yet to Renato’s point, it DOES seem like the team lays an egg on Sunday.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought White Vegas was supposed to be an advantage for the raptors...

Anyways, I think yesterday’s loss has A LOT more to do with talent and youth than it does White Vegas.

by MAS11 on Dec 6, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe there has been an influx of talented young ladies into the local clubs, which has attracted the Young Onez. Video gaming on a Saturday night holds limited appeal…

by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 6, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

+1 to your comment MAS

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

OKC was coming off a triple OT game in NJ, on a road trip and was playing without arguably a candidate for the league MVP. Credit where it is due, the Raptors did everything they needed to win that game. However, some fans have completely overestimated the talent on this team and don’t realize there will probably be more games like yesterday against NY than there will be games like Friday against OKC. This is due to the talent level of this team. They will be inconsistent. Like take Andrea Bargnani for example. He finally had a good all around game on Friday (congrats) and the nonsense posts started about how he had finally reached NBA superstar status and the Raps were contenders in the East etc. etc… Then low and behold, he counters that with a typical lethargic effort yesterday and the Raptors lose. Surprise!! The sooner you make your peace with this, the easier it will be to watch the games this season.

by MAS11 on Dec 6, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i agree with what your saying but

okc did have a day rest after their 3ot win so its not like they were dead tired plus overtmes are only 5 minutes so it aint really that long plus they beat boston in boston minus durant and jeff green so that win was all toronto i think and i agree with you we should expect more ups and downs this season we all should know that but its also funny were the writers on here also flip flop some things on here like francise just yesterday did an article praising the raps and even bargs, than 1 game and it seems like everybody is like this player suks that player sucks move bargs to the bench fire the coach, we want to make the playoffs, we want to miss the playoffs and get atop 3 pick etc etc etc..we as fans especially on here are so bi-polar its just funny. we just gotta come to reality that this team will have ups and downs and could still very easily make the playoffs or miss it and have a top draft pick (kyrie irving)

by sherwin316 on Dec 6, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

like francise just yesterday did an article praising the raps and even bargs, than 1 game and it seems like everybody is like this player suks that player sucks move bargs to the bench fire the coach, we want to make the playoffs, we want to miss the playoffs and get atop 3 pick etc etc etc..we as fans especially on here are so bi-polar its just funny.

My last post after OKC didn’t say that Toronto was going to win the East. It simply noted that a) Toronto played very well against the Thunder and b) The East is so bad that even though the Raptors are NOT a very good team, they may make the playoffs simply because they’re the “lessor of the leasts.”

The reality is that I want this team to get a top 3 pick in the draft. However I also want to see the pieces that are supposed to be the future, get minutes and improve. If that results in wins, so be it.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

i too want them to get a top 3 pick (kyrie irving) i was just saying that after the okc game alot of us were praising the team and everything going good and after a lose were all like the world is falling its just funny sometimes.

by sherwin316 on Dec 6, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I asked "what would you do?"

For a reason, because it’s easy to criticise yet there are answers for what coaches should do. If you call a time out because your team should be driving to the hoop and they have not been, I would think you would clearly communicate that the next guy to take a god damned jump shot is coming off, say it with conviction and not in a low key nice guy way. And I wouldn’t care if it were Bargnani, Weems or who ever I’d pull them and rake the shit out of them on their way off.
But hey, that might hurt someone’s feelings

by raptball on Dec 6, 2010 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

What really hurt the Raps were their Freethrows. The were 11 for 22. Making just 5 more would have changed the face of the game. It would have kept the game much closer that’s for sure. Overall, the raps did everything right, New York was able to counter all their runs. The Knick were just smokin and the player of the game was not Amare, athough he domibnated, it was Shawne Williams. He was hitting those threes and kept stabbing into the raptors’ hearts.

by Jeffrey Thompson on Dec 6, 2010 12:47 PM EST reply actions  

Gotta disagree. Free throw shooting sucked, and yeah, would have closed things a bit, but I didn’t get the feeling that was the game changer. Remember, a good chunk of the 4th quarter was garbage time…

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Wings

You guys are right. The wings were weak yesterday, and although athletic and full of potential. None of them are high quality NBA players (at least yet).

You can bet that as a fantasy owner guys like Brandon Rush (who will play them tonight) will not have the type of fantasy games they do when their teams play games against squads with wings that you need to worry about.

Mike Dunleavy is probably going to get to play a lot tonight since the Raps will most likely not be able to exploit him like other teams have been. Brandon Rush starts against most teams in the league now because they have a quality 2/3 that will take it to Dunleavy. The Raps do not seem to show that consistantly.

I think whoever is guarded by Dunleavy tonight needs to make a point of taking it to him.

If Bargs is covered by Hibbert he needs to get away from the basket. Otherwise, we better see some posting up.

by JumpShootersRUS on Dec 6, 2010 3:33 PM EST reply actions  

I just wanna know...

what the hell happened to Demar? The first few games he looked confident, even slightly Kobe-esque in his attitude about attacking defenders…

Right now he looks like a child who touched a hot burner on the stove and now refuses to go in the kitchen…

He only looks to drive if he has a clear path (seen some nice fast break dunks and back door cuts) but if he has a defender in front of him at all he is immediately looking to toss the hot potato…

What gives?

by Mikthaniel on Dec 6, 2010 4:06 PM EST reply actions  

I have no idea but glad you brought this up Mikthaniel. Yesterday 4 of his 12 points were in garbage time, and four of his remaining 8 points was as you noted, were on open dunks.

That means he contributed 4 points in let’s call them “pressure” situations.

He’s currently ranked 39th I think in shooting guards in the league…and there are 30 teams in the league.

Weems has been pretty bad the last couple but DeRozan has just sorta been “there.” I want to see that same DeRozan that we saw early in the season, and in glimpses against OKC and Washington.

Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com

by Adam Francis on Dec 6, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

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