Tip-In: Heart - Raptors Out-Work Mavericks in 84 to 76 Win
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 7:01 AM EST
in Tip-In (Post Game Reports)
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It was all smiles in Raptorland last night as the Dinos, playing with basically 7 players for the bulk of the game, put on an effort for the ages in an unlikely win over the Dallas Mavericks.
It's after midnight, I've got a bad cold, and my flight back to Toronto from Christmas holidays is in about 8 hours.
But I could care less.
I just finished watching the Toronto Raptors take down the Dallas Mavericks, an unlikely event on its own, especially considering it was the Dinos' first win in the big D in 10 tries, but made even more unlikely by the absence of some of the Raps' top guns.
-No Bargnani.
-No Weems.
-Still no Peja or Reggie.
-No Calderon
And Amir Johnson and Leandro Barbosa playing at much less than optimal levels.
Now granted, the Dallas Mavericks were coming off a big win over the Oklahoma City Thunder the previous night, and were without franchise player Dirk Nowitzki, but down to about 8 healthy bodies, getting a win was a tall order for the Raps as it was.
And that was before Linas Kleiza got ejected early in the second half, and Jerryd Bayless went down late with an ankle injury, having to be helped off the court and to the locker room for X Rays.
By the time I post this we'll probably know the extent of Bayless' injury, but suffice to say that at the time he went down, a lot of Raps' fans probably thought this one was over. The Mavericks had been nipping at the Raptors' heels and got within as few as three points, and seemed poise to win this one out on talent alone. Minus Bayless, and on another night where the team struggled with turnovers (they finished with 17 in the end), there were legitimate questions as to whether the Dinos could execute in the game's final four minutes to gut out the W.
However Leandro Barbosa stepped up his game, drilling clutch shots, finding open men, and along with Toronto's stingy defense (yes, I just wrote that), secured the 84 to 76 win.
There were so many great things in this one, it's hard to know where to start. But I'll begin with the title of the recap, heart, as that's what a big chunk of this win was about.
Undermanned, the Raps just wanted this one more.
They out-rebounded the Mavs, got to the line 22 times as opposed to Dallas' 12, and won nearly all the "hustle categories."
That though by itself wouldn't have been enough , as the Mavericks have the league's second best record for a reason. Gunners like Terry and former All-Stars like Kidd and Butler wouldn't go easily into the night, and this would have certainly been a "moral victory" had the Raptors not locked the Mavericks down on D.
I'd love for someone to throw out a game, but can anyone remember a better defensive effort against a top level club over the past 4, 5 years?
Maybe statistically Toronto's held a team to a lower shooting percentage (although the Mavs hit only 41% of their shots), but it was an awesome sight to see crisp rotations, and the Mavericks forced into a game of long-ball, unable to get anything going to the basket.
Aside from a Jason Terry dunk where "The Jet" blew by Barbosa to find the rim unguarded, the rest of the time, Dallas' players were met with a slew of arms and bodies in close, as Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, Joey Dorsey and Julian Wright protected the rim like it was the key to new 5-year billion dollar deals.
And on the perimeter, players like Barbosa, Bayless, and the aforementioned Wright were ball hawks, each with at least 2 steals on the evening.
As a result, the Mavericks were forced into tough shots, particularly ones from long range, and that showed in the end as the Raps won the "points in the paint" battle, 48 to 24. In addition, Toronto's stifling D led to 17 Dallas turnovers of their own, and the Raps used that to their advantage, getting out and running scoring 25 fast break points.
Now many folks probably expect this recap to take on the form of a "see, I told you Andrea Bargnani hurts this team more than helps" tone.
It won't.
In the same way that it took me 3 years to decide that my expectations for Andrea were too high, I'm not going to use one game as a sample size to decide that he, Calderon, Weems etc are better off sitting permanently on the sidelines. Perhaps with Bargs, this would have been a complete blowout as Toronto did have moments of trouble on offence, and Andrea likely would have helped in that capacity.
I will say though that to even the biggest Andrea fan (or Weems' fan in my case), there was no question tonight that the Dinos simply provided much more defensive resistance than they typically do on a night by night basis. You can go by the box score stats, or use the eye test, but there you have it. Throw out the Dirk piece, this was still a very good offensive team and Toronto made them work for every bucket.
It's unfortunate then that many of the players responsible for said effort, don't get more playing time.
I know this is a big ask of Jay Triano in many ways, considering more minutes for grinders like Wright and Dorsey come at others' expenses, but there's been nothing this year that's shown that this team doesn't perform better when these types play bigger roles, especially on D.
Does this mean I'm advocating 35 minutes a game for Dorsey?
No, but it continues to baffle me as to why it doesn't seem that management on down learns from matches like this.
It was the same last year.
It took nearly a full season before Triano and co. realized something fans had been seeing and dissecting statistically for ages; the team was better with Hedo off the bench, and the Jose-Jack-Turk triangle of death was a disaster at both ends.
That's why as much as I'm now looking forward to seeing this young hungry and gritty Raptors group take the court against the Rockets, their next opponent, I'm extremely curious to see how things shake out when some of Toronto's starters return. There was no question that every player who stepped on that court tonight made huge contributions at both ends, and that just hasn't been the case for many of the absentees, be it a Sonny Weems or Jose Calderon. Whether it was rookie Ed Davis' career night of 17 points, 12 rebounds and 3 blocks, or DeMar DeRozan's clutch shots down the stretch, this was a complete team victory, the type that made you excited as a fan.
Of course it remains to be seen if this was a one-off "backs against the wall" type performance by the Raps, but my hope is that Triano and co. test this out by doling out similar minutes, at least while others get healthy.
Again, to me, this season should be all about developing young talent, and being able to evaluate what you've got to work with in terms of personnel.
That happened tonight, and while I don't want to overstate one win in a fairly dismal Raptors' season so far, more of these types of games need to happen for this club to move forward in my opinion, regardless if they result in losses, or gutsy wins like this evening.
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Once again a great write, well done
Ed Davis is going to be a very good player. He has such quick hops and great timing blocking shots. I think most people would also be impressed with Wright. He seems to have some PG skills.
You make a good point about Jay. He should be rewarding these guys with minutes but the fact of coaching is that if you play a lesser named player over an established player and it don’t work out then you open yourself up to even more critisim
Was unaware we were playing last night.
Looks like I missed a good one.
if you get a chance watch the replay tinmann
it was a great game to watch
Really nice late Christmas present to fans!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Perfect HQ win
With interminably distained players like Jose and Andrea out, the Raps were still able to eek out a win – despite scoring only 83 points. Great game to watch and the win of the season (our last win of the season was also our last win against a +.500 team). I don’t know how excited to get by this because it may not mean a thing in two nights time. Young players are inconsistent, and Ed Davis had a career game, one he isn’t likely to duplicate regularly for a couple more years. Broken Amir might just be slowed down enough to not frantically foul out in 20, but when he heals will he stay on the floor? Julian Wright played, defended all positions on the courst and was totally effective at things that the raps normally suck at, we all thought he would but does this mean that JT finally gives him some burn? Kleiza is finally oming around, I hope he remembers that it was his strong rebounding over a few games that seemed to get him out of his slump.
And what about the missing starters, does adding Jose and Bargs back to the mix inevitably alter the character of the team? Some say the Raps haven’t had an identity for years, I disagree. Like it or not, we have been a crappy Pheonix North. We can score, weak D, no toughness or inside presence. It is diffiult to wath this style of play for years and years, without any sucess. TO fans crave a change, they definitely think the grass is definitely greener on the ‘defence first’ side of the fence, as evidenced by the endless droning of many of the writers and posters on this site. In fairness, I thought JT (and PJ) took a big step at the beginning of the year, coming out of training camp. There was definitely a visible improvement in how this team played D. Unfortunately, with Evans down, slowly but surely the Raps’ defensive stats have started to plumet to more familiar territory at the bottom of the league. But again, is this inevitable with Jose and Bargs as starters?
Most will know that I am a glass half full kind of Raps fan. I don’t see the point in dumping on Bargnani at every chance just to prove a point that everyone knows anyway – if nothing else, it leads to VERY BORING READING. As this team is currently constructed*, no one can supplant Andrea from the starting C, or Jose as the starting PG. At C, the raps have Andrea, Alabi and a bunh of PF’s. Alabi must be pretty far from ready if JT won’t play him with this roster, even David Andersen was able to get plenty of minutes baking up Andrea, so it ain’t like JT is needing an all star. The argument can and has been made for starting Bayless over Jose, but jose was looking good as the starter and JB is an excellent hange of pace off the bench. So like it or not, jose and Andrea are going to be starters on this team.
What frustrates me as a fan is how the team chooses to deal with this. I can sit here and armchair coach, say our other 3 starters should be the best defenders on the team at those positions: maybe Amir, Julian and Barbosa. Sounds great too, let Ed Davis, DeMar and Bayless get plenty of burn against the other teams bench to develop their confidence and get used to playing together. Let Kleiza play the Barbosa role, he can be the vet scorer off the bench with a green light. I would even let Alibi play 10 mins a game to see what he has and develop it while giving Andrea some rest. Thinking about it gets me excited that we might actually be able to have a decent team here. Unfortunately, being an armchair coach means nothing – as a fan, all I can do is watch and see what the real coaches do. Same goes for BC for that matter. Sure we can share a bunch of trade proposals (however, I thought there used to be an unwritten rule about not posting trades), but not only can we not make trades, we have no idea about what is actually going on behind the senes (like the recent info about Bosh squashing a trade to the Cavs last year).
In the end, I find myself really hoping this team stumbles into some more good decisions. I like much of the personnel we have, players, coaches and management. That said, I am open to change too. Last night was a great game, and as Leo so aptly pointed out, we played with more heart than in a long time. I hope it is something that is not just pointed out by bloggers and something that is acted upon!
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 8:31 AM EST reply actions
Joey Dorsey
Joey Dorsey is just playing amazing!!! the guy is collecting rebounds and shooting very effeciently dispite his small size.
so true. dorsey is as wide as he is tall! haha
by untouchable_21 on Dec 29, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
I noted this during the chat last night but Dorsey’s been gangbusters; remember, this is a spot previously owned by guys like O’Bryant and Slokar.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Slokar
in his only appearance scored 20+ if I am not mistaken…. maybe HE deserved pt too?
it was a bite
meant to get the stat junkies out…. it worked immediately :)
I was at that game ha ha – Slokar was killing it! And while he was no Dorsey, I did think he deserved some more PT at times.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Last night's game from a Wins Produced perspective
Interesting to look at the WP48 numbers for each player (0.100 is an average mark):
Starting Lineup
Amir Johnson 0.235
Joey Dorsey 0.365
Linas Kleiza -0.011
DeMar DeRozan 0.007
Jerryd Bayless 0.243
Bench
Leandro Barbosa 0.004
Julian Wright 0.069
Ed Davis 0.110
Injured Players
Andrea Bargnani -0.078
Jose Calderon 0.196
Sonny Weems 0.011
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 10:21 AM EST reply actions
I think there’s a case for balanced teams that excel in both aspects of the game, really. But more of the successful teams seem to be good defensively
That, of coarse, was the famous Dec 28th quote by the leader of the “give no credit to offense” gang where he actually acknowledged that the game does consist of defense and offense.
The next step hopefully is to acknowledge that a player’s value lies in both aspects of the game and to become a better player, a player should work on his weakness in both. Reggie for example had great value in rebounding and leadership yet his game was really lacking in the scoring side. Therefore in an evaluation of his game, you would not simply say “he sucks” because he does not score the ball enough.
You can quote and re-quote all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that the teams who are successful in the playoffs are the ones who excel defensively. They win the majority of series.
Great offence can support great defence, and its good to have balance. But ultimately, the one-dimensional defensive teams (like Detroit from a few years back) would have an advantage over the one-dimensional offensive teams (like the Raptors).
You can roll out the Celtics as an example of a balanced team, but ultimately they employ a big man who serves as the anchor of their defensive efforts. You can’t say that about the Raptors – they do not have an anchor in the middle. The Raptors struggle to get even an average defensive performance out of their “anchor”.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
so your whole point is
he should not be the anchor. I guess that is fine with almost everybody in here. Dirk isn’t either, neither Carlos Boozer, neither Amare, they all produce (for good and bad) similar Andrea, not necessarily better but double price tag (mind you they have been in the league and in their current role way more than our #7). These are just to name the first three players from the top of my head who you would die to have on the Raptors team but who would REPLICATE the situation you have now in TO. With the exception of Amare, they all produced along the years with a D minded C at their side.
those guys are still
the ‘anchor’ of their team. Most minutes and usage. Guaranteed not to sit except in blow out or injury situations. Wouldn’t come off the bench except in the most extreme circumstances.
Bargnani shouldn’t be in their same situation. He hasn’t proven enough of anything to say he deserves that. Yet for some reason he is. (His price tag is irrelevant.)
I would also mention that they also each rebound at atleast an average rate, shoot at over 50%, and I would still put/keep any of them in during a defensive situation over Bargs. Bargs isn’t even close to being in the same discussion as those guys.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Bargs isn’t even close to being in the same discussion as those guys.
that is exactly my point, because all those guys are total jokes on D
are you trying to tell me
that Bargs is a better defender than any of these guys? Now thats a joke.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
no it isn't
and it hasn’t been for a long time. those three are jokes as defenders and if you do not know it… well you should ..
anyway my point was not deciding who between them is better or worse
I said that it is possible to mask their defensive shortcomings by playing alongside a defensive minded C. Out of those 3 Amare didn’t (I made the list up quickly ) but he has been playing with defensive minded SF for the best part of his career.
So tired of this debate
I am usually with you on Renato, but at the end of the day, Bargs is not yet the same defender as Dirk, Carlos or Amare. Dirk is part of the best D in the league and Amare and Carlos have both stepped up and really helped their new teams in a way that Bargs hasn’t.
The missing point is that the Raps don’t have a better C to send out there, so the discussion is moot.
Furthermore (not you Renato, but raptball can listen to this), stop all this BS about us needing a tough defensive C so we can shift Bargs to PF. Instead we could play a tough defensive PF’s – you know like Evans and Johnson and Dorsey and Davis. If Davis develops down the road as expected, he will be an excellent player to pair with Bargs. If anything we could use a back up C to spell Andrea when he is sleepwalking. Andersen did it well for us, Maybe Alabi could in the future, but anyone serviceable would do (Petro, Mahinmi, Oliver Miller, etc)
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
The missing point is that the Raps don’t have a better C to send out there, so the discussion is moot.
Agreed, but one has to set a “something” as a target in order to try and get it. BC did try that this summer but failed (and that guy went on playing alongside… well, you know…Nowitzki). I appreciate your opinion on those players, note however, being (slightly better or worse than Andrea) they all have in common not to be asked to be the defense anchor, masking their shortcomings.
Agree with you on the first paragraph. While Dirk, Boozer and Amare all have deficiencies, they are light years ahead of bargnani in terms of defence and if nothing else at the very LEAST contribute by rebounding, which is the minimum you can ask a forward to do.
Be carefull Mr. Archibald
You are not in step with the hounds of hell who would have Bargs moved to the bench for spot duty.
As far as Bargnani playing the center position on defense, he is simply not wide enough, heavy enough, strong enough to contend with the likes of Howard, Shaq, Perkins, Bynam etc, etc.
My take on a strong defensive center comes from the template of many past championship teams with Cartwright, Jabbar, Parish, Russell etc Traditionally he need that size and power in the center spot. Take it as BS if you wish.
Of course a defensive anchor would be good
As Renato pointed out, we made a play for Chandler this summer in what would have been a coup. Didn’t work out, nothing else has since, so I am just talking about how we make due in the meanwhile, and using a PF as your defensive anchor can work too. But by all means, if BC can trade or draft a Russel type, go for it. Last time we drafted a defensive C, we traded him for a former 1st team defensive player. BC seems to see the weakness, and that was before YEARS of reading Defensive Stance’s posts.
If we traded for Chandler this off season, maybe Triano could have pleased the hounds of hell and made Bargnani the most feared big off the bench in the league. Maybe we sign him or Sammy D or something of the ilk in the off season, until then why not work with the tools we have been given. We have shown we are capable of some pretty good ball against some pretty good teams.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Amar’e is arguably a worse defender than Andrea. You’ll get no argument from me on that point.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Well sir Stance
We have some common ground. Bargnani is not the center the Raptors need. Here’s where we disagree. He would be a very good 4.
whats the difference?
he covers Odom instead of Gasol… Boozer instead of Noah….
he still has to play help defense and rebound. Its that stuff he needs to do… and thats irrelevant to what position he plays.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
There is quite a difference
Guarding Howard or Shaq or Bynum is somewhat different than guarding Oden or Boozer.
Think about it
Yes
.
People need to ask themselves – how does Amir stack up against a guy like Howard, or Shaq, or Bynum. Even KG to some degree. As well, Davis is not ready for that type of competition.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
sure
and does Bargs always guard those guys?
He didn’t guard Shaq, Howard or Bynum this year…. so exactly how is it different for him?
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
The main thing is that defense is more effort-based than offense. If you bring the effort, your team can put in a pretty stable performance night after night.
But when you’re a team built around offense, you can be sunk by one player having an awful night (see Kobe 8-27). Players/teams that rely on outside shooting are even more susceptible to streakiness – the rim was shut on Ray Allen in last year’s finals and that alone basically sunk the Celts.
Obviously, the result of the game is based on points for/against and each side of the ball is equal. But watching a team struggle defensively signals that the team may have issues reaching the level of communication/cohesion/dedication necessary to succeed in high pressure situations.
I agree
However, just because I am pro Bargnani and pro offense does not mean I miss the importance of defense. There are times when defense wins games and there are times when suppernatural shooting wins games.
"there are times when suppernatural shooting wins games"
This generally happens agains poor defense : )
No that's because
In every game there are numerous instances where players are human and cannot over take a passed ball. That’s why you often hear coaches say “we got some good looks tonight”. That means that the defense was simply unable to reach the spots for any number of legitimit reasons.
On top of that, there are numerous times in a game where even you would agree that a player has played exceptional defense only to see the shooter rise up and put it in the hoop. Other than an actual block, there are limits to defense.
The main thing is that defense is more effort-based than offense. If you bring the effort, your team can put in a pretty stable performance night after night.
But when you’re a team built around offense, you can be sunk by one player having an awful night (see Kobe 8-27). Players/teams that rely on outside shooting are even more susceptible to streakiness – the rim was shut on Ray Allen in last year’s finals and that alone basically sunk the Celts.
Great point.
To me this isn’t all about Bargs either. I’m a big Weems fan but his D has left a lot to be desired of late, and DeRozan too. Offence comes and goes but a team with a solid defensive identity can win games even when their offense is struggling. Look at the Bobcats last year, a perfect example of this.
That’s why I want to see Toronto’s rebuild happen with a defensive mentality, and last night’s crew were the best of the bunch in terms of playing to that style.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I said this from Day 1
Being a soccer player – I play LB/RB Defence – and only defence. There is nothing else to it. End of story…
I protect the goalie with my body and life, and any defender or midfielder that doesn’t get with program of full blooded do-or-die prevent the other team from even thinking about getting a shot off – or making a penetrating cut through us – get shoved out to ‘play’ with the forwards.
We in the ‘D’ had one job: to absolutely massacre the other teams offence – those who dont share that vision can go an try an be that all-star dream of a striker they envisioned themselves at the age of 5. It’s easier to defend when they aren’t demanding the ball while the other team is attacking (I mean seriously … wtf..)
Soccer
Could use more Offense – I find the game boring, as do a good number of NORTH AMERICAN sport fans.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Um…soccer’s the fastest growing sport in North America so I’d argue the folks who find it boring are increasingly becoming the minority…
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Such a good point
Begs the question, why are Toronto teams always seemingly so lazy? We’ve had our mo petes and jyd’s (reggies) over the years, but then the rest of the team just stands around too much… Maybe the Garbo year was the exception? Maybe…
Defense doesn't come and go?
How’s that work, teams or players never have a bad defensive game therefore it doesn’t come and go like offense does? hmmmm
Knew that was going to get called out. Yep, team’s can certainly play poorly on D in certain games. But look at the best teams in the league year in and year out; they get it done almost every night on D, whether the offence is on or off. A team can have a great plan for their offense, but sometimes shots just don’t go in. On D it’s different. A great defensive scheme generally becomes a consistent thread. See Pistons of the 90’s, and today’s Celtic clubs.
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Bargnani Should Come Off The Bench If He Is Ready To Return B4 Being Traded
He is a one dimensional player whose defense will always suck even if he gets a few blocks now and again.
He plays half his games like he is still half asleep.
The only difference between his play when he is awake and when he is asleep is that he can score when he is awake. However awake or sleeping his defense sucks, though it sucks even more when he plays while he is asleep.
Totally Agree.
Last night proved what you can do when ALL FIVE players are engaged, have pride and passion on BOTH ends of the floor!
they are the same guys of 24 hours before
and the same guys who also play when Andrea is in the game
Exactly
They are the same guys on the court with Andrea… It is just to much to ask 4 teammates to overcome Bargnani’s deficiencies. And yes the same players as played against the Grizz, and I thought they played pretty good D against them and they outrebounded them… A trend maybe???
84 points
How often do you win when you can only score 84 points, and in the previous 2 games have 100 turnovers. The grass is always greener, and damn we haven’t had any of that strong defensive play in forever, but don’t bite off your nose to spite your face. Demar, Weems, Evans, Kleiza, etc. are hardly players that are trying to make up for Andrea. If anything it is the other way around. The fact that we have a talented, skilled, jump shooting big with range is not a flaw, it means you can surround him with offensively useless players like Evans and maybe they hide each other’s deficiencies. I don’t know if you want any opposing voices to your endless crusade to bury Bargs, but don’t you guys get tired of singing to the choir?
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
can we all for once just once enjoy a great hard fought win without another bargs bashfest please lol
And on another note..francise do I get credit for the title of this well written article lol
by sherwin316 on Dec 29, 2010 10:51 AM EST via mobile reply actions
You do indeed ha ha!
Adam Francis - Publisher - RaptorsHQ.com
by Adam Francis on Dec 29, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Julian Wright
Great read guys..but not enough is said about Julian Wright I was keying on him last night and after Bayless went down it was JW that was the aggressor on d. He played his heart out but what impress me most about JW was is passing ability the guy was like Nash with some of his passes. He broke the defence down and then just let the ball go in the perfect spot…He needs to get a lot more playing time in my opinion, for the bench to beat a team like dalllas after a back to back the coaching staff really needs to shake things up a bit. JT can’t worry about players ego here, we do not have an allstar forward or guard on the team and if you see something that works you have to give it a shot and see what happens. I would keep Kleiza in the starting line up switch Wright for DD and I can assure you DD will light up those other bench players that he will be going up against on a night to night basis. The second switch would be move Jose back to the bench and start Bayless when he comes back that way DD will have Jose who is familiar with. The last switch would be making Dorsey start instead of Amir and this is no take on Amir its just an experiment to see how the kid will do…..The Raps can’t be winning one game and then lose 4 that will not get the team anywhere.
so here are my starters….
Bayless
Andrea
Kleiza
Wright
Dorsey
BENCH
Jose
Barbosa
DD
DAVIS
Weems
its not the first time
Wright has shown he has he ability to pass. Some solid ball handling skills for a guy his size and ofcourse his defense. His shooting is ofcourse questionable.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Most inspiring win since...
… they beat Michael Jordan and the Wizards with the league minimum 7 active players (one of those players had to be signed to a 10 day contract because really they only had 6). My favorite game all year and maybe from the last couple of years. Last night was the perfect example of the effect of having all five guys engaged on BOTH ends of the court.
This is just amazing – after Bayless went down with an injury (Kleiza already ejected for being a f’n retard) the Raptors were down to the following players for the bulk of the 4th quarter:
Dorsey, Johnson, JuJu Wright (from here on in referd to only as JuJu – becase he’s earned it), DeRozan, Barbosa and the Roockie Ed Davis……….. THAT’S IT! AND THEY WON!!
I realized last night that having two Bigs up front that actually give a crap about defense and rebounding can completely change the dynamic of the game. Franchise suggested that having Bargnani play last night would have led to a blowout. Since we’re dealing in supposition, I would argue the complete oposite. More Bargnani minutes equates to less for Doresy and Davis, which immediately translates to a huge deficite in interior defense and rebounding. I’m actually not all that surprised that with both Jose and Bargnani out, the Raptors MAGICALLY get SIGNIFICANTLY better on defence. Surprise, surprise that’s EXACTLY what all the statistics suggest would happen.
Oh and Julian Wright! That charge he took late in the 4th was better than any three pointer or jump shot I’ve ever seen. i actually lept off my couch on that one. And his passing?!?! Where did that come from?? Oh and he guarded EVERY position at one point last night – he needs to play more!
see my provious post
they are the same guy one would have killed after watching them play Memphis. Moreover nobody is keeping them from bringing it when Andrea plays.
Moreover we have seen already a team bringing it on a nightly base, it was the team up till when Evans went down. That team, to be honest had never met these days Kleiza…..
Moreover you want to tell me if we add to yesterday team Andrea, Evans, Peja, JC we end up with a worse team?
They are the same guys on the court with Andrea… It is just to much to ask 4 teammates to overcome Bargnani’s deficiencies.
As for your last question… yes, I honestly do believe, in certain circumstances, against certain match-ups, this team is better without those three. I definately believe the players that gutted out last night’s victory deserve the lion’s share of minutes going forward.
I respect you
like I respected all those Japanese solo troupers in lost abandoned islands still fighting WW2
Umm sorry Renato, but it is you that most resemble the overly fanatical Japanese in the dying days of WWII. You see, you can’t win, you are already defeated. All the statistics and analysis is contrary to your position. Yet you fight on. Just like the Japanese did, for the honor of their homeland, you fight for the honor of yours (Italy). LOL This was just stupid… But you took me there Renato. I blame you.
hater
I realized last night that having two Bigs up front that actually give a crap about defense and rebounding can completely change the dynamic of the game.
Yeah, you just realised last night. I suppose after a win like yesterday, it is a great chance to dump on Bargs. Yup, that is a natural reaction. I loved JuJu’s game last night, but 0 points wont win you many games. You don’t play 5 Bruce Bowens. Look how good soft jump shooting Matt Bonner looks on SA. Not even going to argue with you anymore, though I might point out how you are making the same boring point over and over and over and…
Though it is nice to see you add in some ignorant anti Euro talk into your usual BS, Almost sounded like you recognised you were doing yourself a disservice until you blamed Renato for your ignorance.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Last word on Bargnani
In the first 10 Raptors’s wins Andrea averaged 25 PPG in the 10 games.
The Dallas game in a “perfect storm” setting is the 1st win without Andrea contributing to the game. Is Amir going to continue a career high 42.5MPG & Ed 17PPG?
Andrea’s contribution can best be measured after the team wins another 9 games without him. I will not hold my breath, and would advise others not to either.
I don't think its a completely fair comparison
first you have to look at the opponents they lost to (Lakers, Chicago… and a full squad at that, and Memphis). Besides 2 of the teams being elite, all those teams have big, strong back courts… the Raps were missing 2/5ths of their bigs. I would also mention the complete lack of experience the Raps had to play with because of it.
I would also mention the sample size of 4 games, vs 17. Neither are huge.. but when 3 of the 4 are elite teams, its a bit different than 17 vs the weakest and the best and mediocre in the league.
Finally its not about this team being better this year… its about the future. I just don’t see this team being better in the long run if Bargs keeps playing like he does.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
What are you talking about “ignorant anti Euro talk”? I said Renato was defending his countryman, which he ALWAYS does. I was in no way making wide statements against a specific ethnicity. Read thouroughly before you post or make yourself look like an idiot. Oh and love the “hater” comment, the childish calling card comment of a Bargs appologist. When your position is not based in reality, call the other guy a hater. Brilliant.
Be gentle MAS11
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The “hater” term also gets flipped around just as much – ala fanboy.
I’ve been guilty in the past, but trying to make amends – my New Year’s resolution.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Over the top?
Renato always defends Raptor Euros, in a glass half full kind of way. It was him that said Bargs would be better this year after all the stats freaks predicted he would suck without Bosh (based on a brief sample last year). Saying Renato only has his opinion because he is from Europe is a cheap way to denigrate his opinion – though admittedly not ‘ignorant anti Euro talk’. Sorry for getting personal anyways.
As for the hater comment, it is because you only see Bargnani through shit coloured glasses. Hell, he didn’t even play last night and you are still ripping him. Bargnani backers and Bargnani himself acknowledge he needs to improve his defence and rebounding. The point is, he does bring a lot to the table on offence and is improving defensively. My personal point is that he is currently our best option at C. For months, no years, we have had to watch this site get hijacked by Bargnani haters that only have one thing to say, and say it over and over. He didn’t even play last night. The game was awesome. To watch that game and think about how bad the guy on the bench in a suit sucks, requires a little bit of hater. Hey, I hated Smitch, we are all allowed to dislike a player. if you read MY post, it was more to point out that your opinion isn’t changing so rather than debating with you I will simply acknowledge your hate for Bargnani. I know I didn’t dazzle you with stats, but I hope that is real enough for you.
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
Deficiencies
They are the same guys on the court with Andrea… It is just to much to ask 4 teammates to overcome Bargnani’s deficiencies. ….. MAS11
I’d counter by saying the other 4 guys have deficiencies on both Defense & Offense. At least Bargs provides one of the two.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Four of the five regular starters for the Raptors are below average to awful defenders (Bargnani, Weems, DeRozan and Calderon). Bargnani does at least bring it on offence. The argument, of course, is how much is he giving back on the defensive end of the floor?
Ultimately, if you’re going to hitch your wagon to Bargnani as a starter and one of the focal points of your offence, then you have to upgrade the wings from both an offensive and defensive standpoint. I’d start with Gerald Wallace as the strong rebounding, ball hawking small forward.
I haven’t seen anything from DeRozan that makes me think he’s going to develop into the consistent solution at the SG position.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
wow Stance
This is the second day in a row where you have made a consession – “Bargnani does at least bring it on offence”. Previous to this you have had only one line “Bargnani sucks”
You also did something strange for you where you left the door open for debate on Barg’s defensive contribution. Up until now your line has been that he gives nothing on defense(0)
What’s even more scary for me is that we agree on Derozen.
Bargs doesn't need help...
…on his own man defensively any where NEAR as much as the other 4 guys on the court need help defending theirs…
So, do you hang your hat on his reliable offense and build defense around him that he doesn’t need to help?
or
Do you build offense at the other positions and plant a Mutumbo type in the middle to alleviate the defensive lapses they produce?
It’s all about how you want to build the team, the real problem is that the current idea seems to be to make Andrea learn to be both the offensive workhorse AND the defensive anchor while not hold the other guys accountable for dumping too much load on him…
I’ve said it over and over and over, it isn’t Barg’s fault he has been asked to be more than he is and he would be much more liked and probably happier if he wasn’t constantly being asked to be something he’s not…
KDFREATPED
The measure of defense
One of the things that sustains this debate about defense verses offense is the lack of measurement. The opinions on defense are very much like the opinions of the judges in a figure skating competition. There is no way to debate the judges scores because they are subjective.
Offense on the other hand has one basic measurement, the points on the board.You can have more blocked shots than the other team or steals or charges and still lose but one thing for sure if you have more points you win.
The other thing that is subjective about defense is that it is affected by the judgement of the officials. Nba officials clearly favour offense because they cater to what they feel the fans want and that is scoring. The rules as well favour offense.
what a crock
first off defense is not ‘subjective’ or atleast not any more ‘subjective’ than any other part of the game.
its not based on a random score set by personal opinion. There are very hard numbers based used to decide these things. Opponents fg%, turnovers created, steals, blocks, rebounds, opponents score.. those aren’t ‘subjective’ (however all need to be considered, in general, within other factors ie. minutes played, pace etc)
However if you want to say they are then offense is just as subjective. Points is not the only indicator of quality of a players offense. Scoring 30 pts a game would be great, but if you did it on 50 shots is it still great? FG%, assists, turnovers, fts taken (and %) are all relevant to a players offense. (again should be viewed in relation to minutes, pace etc)
“but one thing for sure if you have more points you win
completely true… but you can also stop the other team from scoring which will also proved a win (see Raps game last night). Most games in the NBA do not come down to shot outs… especially when you get to the playoffs.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
and with all out talking absout bigs.....
The Raps are instead after Flynn?
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18320#ixzz19WZmgDAf
I am all for adding speed, agility and leadership to the backcourt...
If Flynn ever develops a long-range bomb — then he will be infuriatingly good…
Depending on what they give up for Flynn, it could have the feel of a Bayless-type acquisition. And BC always tends to come out on top in the smaller transactions.
Flynn? I’m not a fan, but sure – why the hell not?
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Defense - Offense - They both matter ..... But heart brings out the best.
Most inspiring win since… …..[MAS11]
Completely agree about this being an inspiring win. OKC was memorable, but not quite like the 8-man team that beat Boston (with ALL their players) – yes, those hated Celtics. How easy we forget.
SIGNIFICANTLY better on defence. Surprise, surprise that’s EXACTLY what all the statistics suggest would happen. ……. [MAS11]
So, I guess we can toss out the previous 2 games. Fact is, Raps had 68 turnovers in the last 3 games. They also allowed 110 points (per game) in the 3 games prior to Dallas – games which were effectively without Bargnani (he played hurt @ Detroit).
This is what bothers me about some comments. Instead of enjoying the win, I’m stuck using a little reality to counter small sample size proclamations …. when really, we should be relishing this win – as it was very much about character. Baby steps for a young gang.
In this Dallas win, the stars all lined up for us:
- Raptors playing with an enormous amount of heart. Knowing you’re shorthanded, and scheduled to lose a game, can draw out the best in people. The guys rose to the occasion.
- Davis had his best game EVER.
- Amir played 42.5 minutes like no other game I’ve seen – almost like his life depended on it. Why he played so much, is because we had no other Bigs left. Outside of Bargnani (and no Evans), who do we have? Had Bargs played, Amir’s time would have dropped. Would Ed have played so well? – we’ll never know.
- Dirk being out – this event took pressure off the Bigs. Our biggest Starter was all of 6’9. No Dirk changed the complexion in the Front Court.
- Dallas was on a back-to-back …. as we were. Difference was, the older players who counted big for the Mavericks in their win against OKC (including big minutes), didn’t quite have it against the Raps.
- Bayless played with a lot of guts. Some might argue foolishly – pressing so hard (like his last play) – when Raps had no back-up PG. Had this happened in the 2nd Quarter, rest assured, it’s a loss.
- Kleiza – despite the bonehead tech calls, was instrumental to this win in 2 different ways. 16 points in 25 minutes (and +14), plus his ejection allowed Wright more Court time. Kinda forced Jay’s hand – maybe he’ll learn from it.
- Wright played one of his better games.
Raps won this game with 8 (mostly back-up) guys – Dorsey, Wright, Barbosa, Davis, DeRozan, Kleiza, Bayless, and Johnson. If you’re a Dallas fan, you have to wonder …. wtf.
Rap fans are on the other side of that spectrum, going …. wtf.
Total enjoyment on my part. It was a game where an Optimist would want to build on, and a Pessimist would find some reason to sh!t on it.
.
games which were effectively without Bargnani (he played hurt @ Detroit).
so was amir (our best defender) so we can then say those other games were effectively played without Amir… meaning only ed davis (a rookie) and Dorsey (no experience) as the guys getting minutes.
I think the point of lasts nights game that people are trying to point out is that you can win without alot of offense. You can outwork your opponent and win. Personally I dont think Bargs is a necessity on this team, and IN THE LONG RUN, this team will be better served to have him see less minutes (unless he starts to do the things he needs to do on D). He needs to be treated the same way Amir, Ed Davis, Dorsey etc are treated… if they are not playing well or working hard they see the bench. If what they do is not benifiting the team hit the pine.
by Not so Friendly Stranger on Dec 29, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Bargs & Amir
so was amir (our best defender) so we can then say those other games were effectively played without Amir…
What I was trying to illustrate with my comment, is that Defense is not only Bargnani’s issue, it’s the whole team. The Centre may be the last line of defense, but that doesn’t excuse how often the opposition gets there – via our Wings (& Guards). And yes, I believe if Amir was healthy, I suspect Raptor defense would be even better. I also believe that AB’s lack of Defense is more a function of effort & understanding the new guys, then it is about BBall IQ. A few like DS would staunchly disagree with me on that, but that’s how I see it.
It’s funny how we use the Dallas game to promote a bring Bargnani off the Bench or better still trade him , yet we fail to state this case when Raps play bad Defense (while Bargnani is injured).
.
Bargnani’s issue aside (help-defense), I still feel his man-to-man is not bad, IMO. As for rebounding, Raps are 9th in ORebs – a stat I value more than Total Rebounds (where we are 21st). During the past 10 games, our rebounding total has declined significantly. Hopefully, that’s a symptom of injuries, and nothing else. Rebounding needs to improve, but it is not amongst our most pressing needs – 3 pt shooting (29th), 3 pt perimeter defense (22nd – Opponents %), and minimizing the opposition drives into the Paint (28th).
.
As for minutes, I do agree that Bargs needs less – more likely 30-31 minutes, instead of 35. Trouble is, Jay has not had much option in that regard. I don’t believe Davis should be thrown in too strongly yet – he needs to grow. A typical Toronto sport team tends to destroy its’ rookies, all too often. He’s still raw, and coming off the Bench right now, serves his purpose & the Raps, much better.
.
I do believe that Davis & Bargnani would make a great pair some day. Davis offers more Defense, and Andrea more Offense. What Raptors need is more defense like Wright supplied last night. Fact is, our Wings don’t score and don’t defend, adequately enough. As sad as it seems, having them offer even a one-dimensional consistency would improve things in Raptorland. With time, hopefully that gets corrected.
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Defense is not only Bargnani’s issue, it’s the whole team
Agreed 110% on that.
As aggravating as it is to watch Bargs fail to help or stand flat footed, the defence from the wings and PG position has been abysmal. I think Weems and Calderon being absent had as much to do with the Raptors’ improved effort on D as Bargnani’s absence.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Weems - A big Question Mark
.
Not sure what Raps need to do with Sonny. His trade value would be minimal. His salary is easy to handle. Question is, would a 15-18 minute a game Weems be okay with that (and not affect team chemistry) – as opposed to his current 27.2 mpg average? This assumes he remains a Bench player. And does Jay have that kind of fortitude to make such a call?
.
by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
why would it be so difficult?
that situation is how the season started anyway
Just Asking
.
Sometimes I question Jay’s ability to play the Boss (on the Court).
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t think it’s that difficult. They have little invested in Sonny Weems from a financial standpoint. It’s up to Weems to make the case that he should be getting major minutes and/or a starting spot. It’s quite shocking to see the lack of effort on defence given the point Weems is at in his career.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
we could very well trade you
together with MAS and DS and get the same result. I sure you all are on a way cheaper contract too :)
+1
Mas has only one post that he repeats over and over and over again. No matter what he does on the floor (score 40pts, collect rebounds, play good D, win, etc.) Mas will cherrypick something to hate on Bargs for.
At least Defensive Stance is capable of recognizing positives in Bargs play and development when they occur, but Mas is just a Masshole.
by CamHilton on Dec 29, 2010 8:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
TRIPLE DOUBLE?
I wonder how long it will be until Ed Davis or Jerryd Bayless (Jay-B) grab their first triple double’s
Something like:
Ed Davis 24 points; 15 rebounds; 11 blocks; 9 steals… (lol)
Jay-B: 11 points; 11 Assists, 11 Rebounds…
At least then, we might stop trying to strangle each other on these message boards…
Pick on the other teams
why does this board always try to find someone to pick on. do you really believe the Raps can win consistently without Bargs…get real, he is a 20 pt a night player….There is a reason the scouts told BC to pick him number one, he has game, he is still a kid, but of course you morans don’t see that…one win without Bargs and is crucifiction time…..just prove you’re all the worst basketball fans in the league,,,can’t believe this game was invented in Canada…dummy’s
you are so wrong on that
some people on this board pick on him irrespective on whether:
- he plays bad (they told you he is a bust)
- he doesn’t play (that let the other step up, the fact this is one game is irrelevant, the fact the same players play 25+ even with Andrea is irrelevant))
- he scores 40 ( he definitely let the other team score 50 )
as you see they are pretty consistent on this
Hey
Didn’t you notice how quiet this Board was (before Dallas), when AB was out, and Raps still lost.
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by RapthoseLeafs on Dec 29, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
yes, I believe Franchise and Howland....
suggested BC to get Bargnani, they made gazillions just for the served advertisement and Bargnani has been their chicken with golden eggs…
This win means nothing
If the raps were to play Dallas 10 more times this year with the same players, they would loose 9 times
If the raps were to play Dallas 10 more times this year with the same players, they would loose 9 times
Probably. But there’s no shame in that – Dallas is a very deep, talented team.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
What Bargnani needs to do .... for Raptors to Win
- Continue to score like he does – maybe even more.
- Play like a typical Centre and be a top-level Help-Defender on this team (in order to make up for all the opponents screaming into the Paint with no other resistance).
Trouble is, if he gave us that kind of play, he’d be gone – off to a real Contender. … :-)
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The rest of the Raptors’ Bigs could learn a thing or two from “Special Ed”.
Just HAD to say that one.
+1
That’s hilarious on so many levels.
by RaptorsHQ - Defensive Stance on Dec 29, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Nicknames for Ed Davis
special Ed is good…Hdave
Here is some to ponder….
Eddie Blockshot…..off Teddy Bruckshot from Shottas
Eddie D…..for Defense
Honest Ed…..keeping the offence honest
What’s your nickname?
Uh oh
special Ed might be too good, it just might stick. Someone come up with something better FAST
Walker McKenna
by Robert Archibald on Dec 29, 2010 8:41 PM EST reply actions
The EDucator
Teaching guards lessons every time they try to go inside.
Happiness is that which gets lost in the details of its pursuit.
by HQ Interloper on Dec 30, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
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